1 00:00:01,401 --> 00:00:04,270 - [Announcer] "Firing Line" with William F. Buckley, Junior. 2 00:00:05,538 --> 00:00:07,640 - Isn't it true that 3 00:00:08,608 --> 00:00:10,643 certain jokes, 4 00:00:10,643 --> 00:00:14,614 at least what were considered jokes 10, 20 years ago, 5 00:00:14,614 --> 00:00:16,950 are now un-sayable as a result 6 00:00:16,950 --> 00:00:18,385 of certain tensions that exist? 7 00:00:18,385 --> 00:00:20,387 For instance, certain racial jokes. 8 00:00:20,387 --> 00:00:22,288 You couldn't have a minstrel show now, could you, 9 00:00:22,288 --> 00:00:23,757 in Hollywood? - No. 10 00:00:23,757 --> 00:00:24,924 - Do you regret this? 11 00:00:26,226 --> 00:00:29,896 - Well, I like minstrel shows because I was brought up 12 00:00:29,896 --> 00:00:34,234 in that era, but I think it's wrong today. 13 00:00:34,234 --> 00:00:38,471 I think the colored people have such a struggle today 14 00:00:38,471 --> 00:00:42,208 and I don't think there should be any jokes 15 00:00:42,208 --> 00:00:43,843 connected with them. 16 00:00:43,843 --> 00:00:48,815 - Well, but then, shouldn't it also be said that there 17 00:00:50,283 --> 00:00:52,285 oughtn't to have been Irish jokes, back when they were 18 00:00:52,285 --> 00:00:55,522 having a terrible time and dying like flies in 'Nam. 19 00:00:55,522 --> 00:00:57,724 There shouldn't have been Jewish jokes 20 00:00:57,724 --> 00:00:59,793 when they were fighting their way out of the ghettos 21 00:00:59,793 --> 00:01:00,460 and so on, so forth? 22 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:01,494 - I still resent 23 00:01:01,494 --> 00:01:02,595 Jewish jokes. - Give me your- 24 00:01:02,595 --> 00:01:04,197 - Publicly. - Do you? 25 00:01:04,197 --> 00:01:07,734 - And Irish jokes and Catholic jokes and all kinds of jokes. 26 00:01:07,734 --> 00:01:10,537 - [William] Did you ever tell Jewish jokes yourself? 27 00:01:10,537 --> 00:01:13,440 - I never said a Jewish word on the stage in 50 years. 28 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:14,274 - [William] I didn't say a Jewish word, 29 00:01:14,274 --> 00:01:15,442 I said a Jewish joke. 30 00:01:15,442 --> 00:01:16,743 - No. 31 00:01:16,743 --> 00:01:19,012 I might tell you one when the show's over, 32 00:01:19,012 --> 00:01:21,448 but I never tell 'em publicly. 33 00:01:21,448 --> 00:01:22,715 - This is what- - I don't regard myself- 34 00:01:22,715 --> 00:01:24,484 - I wanna hear. - as a Jew 35 00:01:24,484 --> 00:01:25,885 when I'm publicly performing. 36 00:01:25,885 --> 00:01:27,987 I'm an actor, maybe a bad one, but I'm an actor. 37 00:01:29,355 --> 00:01:32,425 - In other words, out of a sense of deference to people 38 00:01:32,425 --> 00:01:35,228 who would not consider them funny, you wouldn't say them 39 00:01:35,228 --> 00:01:36,463 to a general audience? 40 00:01:36,463 --> 00:01:37,864 You would only say them to somebody who's- 41 00:01:37,864 --> 00:01:39,699 - Who I liked and knew. - Actively tested and knew. 42 00:01:39,699 --> 00:01:41,267 - And would understand it. - Yeah. 43 00:01:41,267 --> 00:01:42,602 - I resent Myron Cohen 44 00:01:43,736 --> 00:01:48,341 and that long farrago of Jewish jokes. 45 00:01:48,341 --> 00:01:52,345 I think the Jews should have a dignity now the same as 46 00:01:52,345 --> 00:01:54,047 the Catholics and the Protestants. 47 00:01:54,047 --> 00:01:55,715 - Well, but is- - I must tell you- 48 00:01:55,715 --> 00:01:56,683 - No, but wait a minute. 49 00:01:56,683 --> 00:01:57,617 I don't wanna get off this, 50 00:01:57,617 --> 00:01:59,052 because isn't it a sense- 51 00:01:59,052 --> 00:02:01,454 - I knew eventually you were gonna make this serious. 52 00:02:01,454 --> 00:02:02,889 We were having fun before. 53 00:02:02,889 --> 00:02:04,724 Why don't you keep it that way? 54 00:02:04,724 --> 00:02:06,359 - Tell me if it begins to hurt. 55 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:07,594 - No, it never hurts. 56 00:02:07,594 --> 00:02:08,661 I'm proud of being a Jew, particularly- 57 00:02:08,661 --> 00:02:09,562 - No, no, no. 58 00:02:09,562 --> 00:02:11,598 - Week before last. 59 00:02:11,598 --> 00:02:13,466 (audience laughs) How do you feel, judge? 60 00:02:13,466 --> 00:02:15,101 - So do I. 61 00:02:15,101 --> 00:02:17,203 - You have no animosity towards we people, do you? 62 00:02:17,203 --> 00:02:18,872 - No. 63 00:02:18,872 --> 00:02:19,806 - Isn't he a charmer? 64 00:02:19,806 --> 00:02:22,742 (everyone laughing) 65 00:02:22,742 --> 00:02:24,811 - A lot of modern poetry, one doesn't really follow 66 00:02:24,811 --> 00:02:27,046 in any narrative sense, does one? 67 00:02:27,046 --> 00:02:28,815 - Well, they probably could follow my hand gestures 68 00:02:28,815 --> 00:02:30,183 and my eye face gestures. 69 00:02:30,183 --> 00:02:31,651 You were very responsive, that was nice. 70 00:02:31,651 --> 00:02:32,952 - Yeah. - It's good. 71 00:02:32,952 --> 00:02:33,987 - I enjoy it, I think it's very beautiful. 72 00:02:33,987 --> 00:02:35,655 Now are you suggesting that the- 73 00:02:37,690 --> 00:02:39,859 because you took that while under LSD 74 00:02:39,859 --> 00:02:41,060 you were able to do it? 75 00:02:42,162 --> 00:02:43,062 - Well, it's- 76 00:02:44,230 --> 00:02:45,999 No, I think it could be, it's a natural thing. 77 00:02:45,999 --> 00:02:50,103 I cited Blake and Wordsworth as having that natural vision. 78 00:02:51,337 --> 00:02:55,475 I think the LSD thing is not an unnatural vision, 79 00:02:55,475 --> 00:02:58,278 as evidenced by the particular details, 80 00:02:58,278 --> 00:02:59,812 like sheep speckle the mountain side, 81 00:02:59,812 --> 00:03:01,080 revolving (indistinct). 82 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,815 - That you recognized. - That you recognized. 83 00:03:02,815 --> 00:03:04,284 There are human things that, you know, 84 00:03:04,284 --> 00:03:06,252 like everybody has seen in nature. 85 00:03:06,252 --> 00:03:09,889 I think the LSD clarified my mind and left it open 86 00:03:09,889 --> 00:03:13,426 to get that sense of giant, vast consciousness. 87 00:03:13,426 --> 00:03:14,861 Specifically, the one thing I noticed, 88 00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:18,231 which I was trying to describe, was that the ocean 89 00:03:18,231 --> 00:03:20,633 of heaven, the atmosphere is like an ocean, 90 00:03:20,633 --> 00:03:22,769 and at the bottom of that ocean of air, 91 00:03:22,769 --> 00:03:26,172 there are all sorts of rivulets of winds, breezes, 92 00:03:26,172 --> 00:03:29,042 and that those rivulets, like at the bottom of a fish tank 93 00:03:29,042 --> 00:03:32,412 move all the trees, move the people around, the hair, 94 00:03:32,412 --> 00:03:35,949 the beards, the grass, the lamb's wool, 95 00:03:35,949 --> 00:03:37,917 rain beaded in the grass. 96 00:03:37,917 --> 00:03:42,388 So that it's like one system like one giant being breathing. 97 00:03:42,388 --> 00:03:46,859 One giant breathing being that we all are part of, 98 00:03:46,859 --> 00:03:50,697 in which we always forget that we are together, 99 00:03:50,697 --> 00:03:53,366 the god like of the universe. 100 00:03:54,767 --> 00:03:58,871 - You say together, but you're fond sometimes of saying 101 00:03:58,871 --> 00:04:03,009 that it's not really together, that's you as individual 102 00:04:03,009 --> 00:04:07,614 who is god, or anyone who discovers his consciousness. 103 00:04:07,614 --> 00:04:09,515 - Going back to that first question you asked, 104 00:04:09,515 --> 00:04:11,918 like are the hippies the new order, 105 00:04:11,918 --> 00:04:15,722 I think the primary hippie and beatnik originally, 106 00:04:15,722 --> 00:04:20,126 back 56, Cadillac, boroughs, perception was a recognition 107 00:04:20,126 --> 00:04:23,930 of that unity of being, and recognition of that great 108 00:04:23,930 --> 00:04:28,768 consciousness which we all were identical with, see? 109 00:04:28,768 --> 00:04:31,704 And that's what I think is the meaning of that flower power 110 00:04:31,704 --> 00:04:34,140 and you know, like make love, not war. 111 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:37,277 Ultimately, it's like it's grounded in an understanding 112 00:04:37,277 --> 00:04:41,481 of the nature of the universe in that you can't fight us, 113 00:04:41,481 --> 00:04:43,149 we can't fight us. 114 00:04:43,149 --> 00:04:47,787 That force finally is you know like, at least at this level 115 00:04:49,188 --> 00:04:52,225 of civilization, is just like a mess and it's not gonna 116 00:04:52,225 --> 00:04:56,062 resolve the problem, and the problem is seeing our unity, 117 00:04:56,062 --> 00:04:57,697 particularly black and white, 118 00:04:57,697 --> 00:05:01,034 particularly square and hippie, 119 00:05:01,034 --> 00:05:05,004 particularly police and student, 120 00:05:05,004 --> 00:05:10,076 particularly Birchite and (beep) individualist. (laughs) 121 00:05:11,844 --> 00:05:13,413 - One thing, I don't think that the vote is as 122 00:05:13,413 --> 00:05:15,381 a pure expression of the people at any given time anyway. 123 00:05:15,381 --> 00:05:17,450 The vote is much too crude an instrument to measure 124 00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:20,553 what real feelings are in the country. 125 00:05:20,553 --> 00:05:23,723 Moreover, politics is extraordinarily complex 126 00:05:23,723 --> 00:05:25,591 and dialectical and contradictory. 127 00:05:25,591 --> 00:05:29,195 For example, Nixon could get in and get in 128 00:05:29,195 --> 00:05:32,198 on a pro-war policy and be the man to make the peace, 129 00:05:32,198 --> 00:05:34,767 precisely because he's a Republican and that's only a theory 130 00:05:34,767 --> 00:05:36,836 of mine that it's the Democrats that start the wars 131 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:38,905 and the Republicans who finish them. 132 00:05:38,905 --> 00:05:40,473 Maybe because the Democrats always have to prove that 133 00:05:40,473 --> 00:05:41,941 they're not Communists, so they always have to be very 134 00:05:41,941 --> 00:05:43,443 militant against the Communists. 135 00:05:43,443 --> 00:05:44,744 The Republicans don't have to prove that, 136 00:05:44,744 --> 00:05:47,347 so they can make peace with the Communists. 137 00:05:47,347 --> 00:05:50,083 If you look at the last few wars, that's how they've gone. 138 00:05:50,083 --> 00:05:51,684 - You regret that? 139 00:05:51,684 --> 00:05:53,920 - No, I think it's part of the pleasurable comedy 140 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,355 of politics as you can see. 141 00:05:56,622 --> 00:05:58,691 I don't take politicians seriously except as adventurers. 142 00:05:58,691 --> 00:06:00,426 I think they are splendid fellas as adventurers 143 00:06:00,426 --> 00:06:02,228 and I admire many of their qualities. 144 00:06:02,228 --> 00:06:05,064 I admire their ability to move from idea to idea 145 00:06:05,064 --> 00:06:06,032 and bed to bed. 146 00:06:06,032 --> 00:06:07,433 At that, they're exceptional. 147 00:06:09,168 --> 00:06:10,069 - Well, 148 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:13,339 you say that the Democrats are always 149 00:06:14,774 --> 00:06:16,976 feeling the necessity to prove that they're not Communists, 150 00:06:16,976 --> 00:06:19,846 but are you glad that they're not Communists? 151 00:06:21,047 --> 00:06:22,148 - Am I glad they're not Communists? 152 00:06:22,148 --> 00:06:23,082 - Yeah. - All right, listen. 153 00:06:23,082 --> 00:06:24,317 I detest Communism. 154 00:06:24,317 --> 00:06:25,451 I detest it much more than you do, 155 00:06:25,451 --> 00:06:26,853 'cause I know much more about it. 156 00:06:26,853 --> 00:06:29,122 I mean, I've read (indistinct), I've read Marx. 157 00:06:29,122 --> 00:06:30,823 You know, studied it, I spent three months studying it. 158 00:06:30,823 --> 00:06:32,825 I love Marx, you see, I just detest Communism 159 00:06:32,825 --> 00:06:34,360 'cause it betrayed Marx. 160 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,497 It's the way you might detest some awful Christian sect 161 00:06:37,497 --> 00:06:39,866 that had completely betrayed Christ, you know. 162 00:06:42,969 --> 00:06:44,337 (audience laughs) 163 00:06:44,337 --> 00:06:47,106 - I certainly understand what you're talking about. 164 00:06:48,474 --> 00:06:51,677 It is, of course, true that the typical Communist 165 00:06:51,677 --> 00:06:54,280 who lives, let's say on the other side of the Iron Curtain, 166 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,184 would be much less frightened by our Naylor administration 167 00:06:58,184 --> 00:06:59,852 than say by Buckley administration. 168 00:06:59,852 --> 00:07:01,187 - No, I think they could comprehend- 169 00:07:01,187 --> 00:07:02,789 - At least as far as they are concerned, 170 00:07:02,789 --> 00:07:05,258 I think they would probably consider the people I support 171 00:07:05,258 --> 00:07:07,794 as more irrelevant than anti-Communism people you support. 172 00:07:07,794 --> 00:07:09,796 The last time you were heard of on the political ramparts 173 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:13,166 was on a committee on being friends to Castro, 174 00:07:13,166 --> 00:07:16,035 a fair play for Castro committee or whatever. 175 00:07:16,035 --> 00:07:17,503 - I still am all for Castro. 176 00:07:17,503 --> 00:07:18,905 I think he's a remarkable man. 177 00:07:18,905 --> 00:07:20,406 Let me just say that I think that the Communists 178 00:07:20,406 --> 00:07:21,808 would probably, well I can't pretend they would ever be 179 00:07:21,808 --> 00:07:23,609 the least bit happy with you, they would feel 180 00:07:23,609 --> 00:07:25,478 a certain security, which is they would feel they would 181 00:07:25,478 --> 00:07:27,513 have somebody, which I might be about to do next, 182 00:07:27,513 --> 00:07:29,015 they couldn't ever feel that with me. 183 00:07:29,015 --> 00:07:31,517 I love the way we treat each other as world leaders. 184 00:07:31,517 --> 00:07:34,387 You see, I'm not the only narcissist in that. 185 00:07:34,387 --> 00:07:35,955 - You always told me to respect your metaphors, 186 00:07:35,955 --> 00:07:37,623 which I was doing. 187 00:07:37,623 --> 00:07:38,791 - I'm glad that we're beginning 188 00:07:38,791 --> 00:07:41,427 to find some conjunction of discourse. 189 00:07:42,528 --> 00:07:45,164 I'm beginning to, well, let it go at that. 190 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:50,136 See, I like to keep a certain freedom, 191 00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:52,405 a certain liberty, to look at the lineaments 192 00:07:52,405 --> 00:07:54,006 of major figures. 193 00:07:54,006 --> 00:07:56,576 For instance, just until the strike started in France 194 00:07:56,576 --> 00:07:58,044 as of a week ago, I was thinking I thought 195 00:07:58,044 --> 00:08:00,413 the two greatest political figures in the world today 196 00:08:00,413 --> 00:08:02,615 were Fidel Castro and Charles de Gaulle. 197 00:08:04,016 --> 00:08:06,018 Now I think I may still be able to say that a week from now, 198 00:08:06,018 --> 00:08:07,320 'cause I think, so far I think de Gaulle's 199 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:08,821 been acting sorta- 200 00:08:08,821 --> 00:08:11,357 I think he's the world's greatest living conservative. 201 00:08:11,357 --> 00:08:13,025 I think he's a remarkable man. 202 00:08:13,025 --> 00:08:14,694 I'm tremendously fond of him. 203 00:08:14,694 --> 00:08:15,862 I have great respect for him. 204 00:08:15,862 --> 00:08:17,330 I have great respect for Castro. 205 00:08:17,330 --> 00:08:18,965 The point is that, men's, you know, 206 00:08:18,965 --> 00:08:20,900 it's the way you wouldn't want one to have great respect 207 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,736 for saints and generals, 208 00:08:23,736 --> 00:08:26,672 for criminals and cops. 209 00:08:26,672 --> 00:08:27,807 You know, there's such a thing as a great cop, 210 00:08:27,807 --> 00:08:29,408 such a thing as a great criminal. 211 00:08:29,408 --> 00:08:31,477 And the way I work, it's very hard to explain this 212 00:08:31,477 --> 00:08:34,714 to people, but I don't think in categories, I think rather- 213 00:08:34,714 --> 00:08:38,317 I try to think this way, that the world is better off 214 00:08:38,317 --> 00:08:41,087 if every so-called type in the world is better. 215 00:08:41,087 --> 00:08:42,655 There's a better world when the cops get better 216 00:08:42,655 --> 00:08:44,023 and the criminals get better. 217 00:08:44,023 --> 00:08:45,358 It's a poorer world when the cops are dull 218 00:08:45,358 --> 00:08:46,759 and the criminals are dull. 219 00:08:47,994 --> 00:08:50,997 - In one of his essays, Mr. Chomsky writes quote, 220 00:08:50,997 --> 00:08:55,201 "By accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate 221 00:08:55,201 --> 00:08:57,303 "on certain issues, such as this one, 222 00:08:58,337 --> 00:09:00,606 "one has already lost one's humanity." 223 00:09:01,774 --> 00:09:03,776 I should like to begin by asking him why, 224 00:09:03,776 --> 00:09:07,113 under the circumstances, if by being here he stands 225 00:09:07,113 --> 00:09:09,148 to lose his humanity, 226 00:09:09,148 --> 00:09:11,651 he consented to appear in the first place. 227 00:09:13,819 --> 00:09:16,923 - Because, first of all, I didn't quite put it 228 00:09:16,923 --> 00:09:18,157 in those terms, I don't think. 229 00:09:18,157 --> 00:09:19,759 I think that by- - You were overheard. 230 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:21,727 - Yeah, but I think that, I said that there are 231 00:09:21,727 --> 00:09:24,530 certain issues, for example Auschwitz, such that 232 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:28,701 by consenting to discuss them, one degrades oneself 233 00:09:28,701 --> 00:09:30,336 and to some degree loses one's humanity, 234 00:09:30,336 --> 00:09:31,771 and I think that that's true. 235 00:09:31,771 --> 00:09:33,739 Nevertheless, I can easily imagine circumstances 236 00:09:33,739 --> 00:09:35,875 in which I would've been glad to debate Auschwitz. 237 00:09:35,875 --> 00:09:38,244 For example, if there were some chance that 238 00:09:38,244 --> 00:09:40,346 by debating Auschwitz it might've been possible 239 00:09:40,346 --> 00:09:43,983 to eliminate it or to at least mitigate the horror 240 00:09:43,983 --> 00:09:45,284 that was going on. 241 00:09:45,284 --> 00:09:47,520 And I think I feel the same way about Vietnam. 242 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,488 And I really think that there is no, 243 00:09:49,488 --> 00:09:51,824 fundamentally there is no argument anymore 244 00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:55,595 at an intellectual level, in my opinion. 245 00:09:55,595 --> 00:09:57,930 But I think it's very important to discuss it, nevertheless. 246 00:09:57,930 --> 00:10:00,066 - At what level is there an argument? 247 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:01,801 - Well, there- 248 00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:07,607 There is a policy, which I think is a destructive 249 00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:09,942 and devastating policy, it's continuing. 250 00:10:11,310 --> 00:10:14,947 And the continuation of the policy is, to some extent, 251 00:10:16,349 --> 00:10:19,085 based on the fact of public apathy or public acceptance. 252 00:10:19,085 --> 00:10:23,255 Hence there still is the necessity to convince people 253 00:10:23,255 --> 00:10:27,426 that they should act strongly to put an end to this policy. 254 00:10:27,426 --> 00:10:30,296 - At what point was there an intellectual argument? 255 00:10:30,296 --> 00:10:34,066 At which point did an intellectual argument in favor 256 00:10:34,066 --> 00:10:37,603 of our intervening in Vietnam cease to exist? 257 00:10:37,603 --> 00:10:40,473 - Well as I say there, I think that there may have been 258 00:10:40,473 --> 00:10:43,209 a time when there was something to debate. 259 00:10:43,209 --> 00:10:45,845 For example, I think that in the middle fifties, 260 00:10:45,845 --> 00:10:48,714 though I was opposed to the policy and I think that 261 00:10:48,714 --> 00:10:51,417 it was right to be opposed to it, nevertheless I think 262 00:10:51,417 --> 00:10:54,687 it was a debatable issue in a sense in which it is 263 00:10:54,687 --> 00:10:55,855 no longer a debatable issue. 264 00:10:55,855 --> 00:10:57,356 - Why is that? 265 00:10:57,356 --> 00:10:58,791 - Because at the moment, I think it's really an issue 266 00:10:58,791 --> 00:11:03,529 of the survival of the existence of Vietnam as an entity, 267 00:11:03,529 --> 00:11:05,097 as a social and cultural entity. 268 00:11:05,097 --> 00:11:06,832 I think that's what's at stake. 269 00:11:06,832 --> 00:11:08,934 - But even that could be intellectually argued, couldn't it? 270 00:11:08,934 --> 00:11:10,670 - Well, in the same sense in which Auschwitz could be 271 00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:11,704 intellectually argued. - No, I mean 272 00:11:11,704 --> 00:11:12,638 in a different sense. 273 00:11:12,638 --> 00:11:14,073 - No I think in the same sense. 274 00:11:14,073 --> 00:11:15,741 In fact, don't forget there were people who argued 275 00:11:15,741 --> 00:11:17,043 in favor of Auschwitz. 276 00:11:17,043 --> 00:11:18,611 - No, no, I haven't forgotten that at all. 277 00:11:18,611 --> 00:11:22,014 I haven't had any such on this program, nor do I intend to. 278 00:11:22,014 --> 00:11:26,052 But it seems to me that even if what you said were correct, 279 00:11:26,052 --> 00:11:28,587 there could be a perfectly legitimate argument over, 280 00:11:28,587 --> 00:11:31,991 for instance, the continuation of the state of Anguilla, 281 00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:35,327 or the continuation of the state of Gafra, 282 00:11:35,327 --> 00:11:37,630 or the continuation of the state of Goa. 283 00:11:37,630 --> 00:11:40,366 - I didn't talk about the existence of the state, 284 00:11:40,366 --> 00:11:42,401 I talked about the existence of the society 285 00:11:42,401 --> 00:11:43,936 as a social and cultural entity. 286 00:11:43,936 --> 00:11:45,371 I think that's what's at stake. 287 00:11:45,371 --> 00:11:48,474 - Okay, well if it's a stake, mightn't there be 288 00:11:48,474 --> 00:11:52,278 two points of view about how to help it evolve 289 00:11:52,278 --> 00:11:55,181 into its natural forms, right? 290 00:11:55,181 --> 00:11:56,682 - Oh there are many different points of view. 291 00:11:56,682 --> 00:11:58,150 I think they're very legitimate. 292 00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:59,685 - Well, I can see- - They're very legitimate. 293 00:11:59,685 --> 00:12:01,387 See, they're very legitimate issues that can be argued 294 00:12:01,387 --> 00:12:05,324 as to how the United States ought to most efficaciously 295 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:08,294 put an end to its destructive actions in Vietnam. 296 00:12:08,294 --> 00:12:09,929 There are many different alternatives that might be 297 00:12:09,929 --> 00:12:11,597 thought about. - Yes, the one way 298 00:12:11,597 --> 00:12:14,667 of course to put an end to America's necessary intervention 299 00:12:14,667 --> 00:12:17,002 is to conclude the war successfully. 300 00:12:17,002 --> 00:12:18,270 That's a way. - No, one possible way 301 00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:19,572 is by destroying Vietnam, 302 00:12:19,572 --> 00:12:22,141 which I think probably the most likely outcome. 303 00:12:22,141 --> 00:12:24,810 - You disagreed very strongly with Dick Gregory, 304 00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:29,882 whom had indicated that the militant stance and symbolism 305 00:12:31,283 --> 00:12:35,154 and rhetoric functionally could actually displace violence. 306 00:12:35,821 --> 00:12:37,189 If you see what I mean? 307 00:12:37,189 --> 00:12:41,560 Perhaps, could you accept that as a phenomena 308 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:43,462 of a positive- - Yes. 309 00:12:43,462 --> 00:12:44,563 - good that the Panthers 310 00:12:44,563 --> 00:12:46,732 have contributed? - Yes, I could. 311 00:12:46,732 --> 00:12:49,902 Unfortunately, as much could be said of the Ku Klux Klan. 312 00:12:49,902 --> 00:12:52,538 But it is true- - I think that- 313 00:12:52,538 --> 00:12:54,039 - Dick Gregory gave a concrete example, 314 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:55,574 you may not remember, 315 00:12:55,574 --> 00:12:59,578 about a black woman who felt intimidated. 316 00:12:59,578 --> 00:13:00,880 This is about two or three years ago, 317 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,616 and she called the Black Panther headquarters there 318 00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:08,387 and they sent someone to look out for her and he was armed. 319 00:13:08,387 --> 00:13:10,656 On the basis of the assurance that she got 320 00:13:10,656 --> 00:13:13,025 from his presence, she did calm down 321 00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:16,162 and recovered her stability. 322 00:13:16,162 --> 00:13:18,531 And there's no question that people can't form that kind 323 00:13:18,531 --> 00:13:21,801 of a function, armed in that kind of a way, and I have no 324 00:13:21,801 --> 00:13:24,236 doubt that the leader of the Black Panthers did it. 325 00:13:24,236 --> 00:13:26,639 - I would like to say this, and I'm sorry if I interrupt. 326 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:28,574 When people equate the Black Panther party 327 00:13:28,574 --> 00:13:31,010 with such people as the Ku Klux Klan 328 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:35,614 and White Citizens Council, I get sort of upset. 329 00:13:35,614 --> 00:13:37,883 I agree that I would like to see a world, 330 00:13:37,883 --> 00:13:40,920 and we agree on more points than we probably have time 331 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,590 to realize now, but the point that dialog- 332 00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:51,030 dialectical struggle, I struggle just through the word. 333 00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:53,833 I would hope that that will probably be the next advance 334 00:13:53,833 --> 00:13:56,101 as bad will come through and put the club down. 335 00:13:56,101 --> 00:13:59,638 But I think that there's certain objective kind 336 00:13:59,638 --> 00:14:02,274 of difficulties have reached that point immediately. 337 00:14:02,274 --> 00:14:04,944 I think that things just don't happen, you start, 338 00:14:04,944 --> 00:14:06,278 but as long as there's 339 00:14:07,112 --> 00:14:11,183 especially an economic interest, 340 00:14:11,183 --> 00:14:15,054 one has to support authority that he has to support, 341 00:14:15,054 --> 00:14:20,125 then he creates a rhetoric in order to sell that to a group, 342 00:14:21,393 --> 00:14:23,195 to an army, to henchmen, then I think that this kind 343 00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:28,267 of dialogue will be inflammatory and cause much violence 344 00:14:28,834 --> 00:14:30,002 and so forth. 345 00:14:30,002 --> 00:14:31,570 And I will even point out the history 346 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:34,807 of the Black Panther party, I think the rhetoric ran amuck 347 00:14:35,941 --> 00:14:38,811 with the leadership, the influence is clearer 348 00:14:38,811 --> 00:14:40,646 and it caused many 349 00:14:41,647 --> 00:14:43,115 murders, 350 00:14:43,115 --> 00:14:45,918 that it laid the foundation 351 00:14:45,918 --> 00:14:47,953 so that even the black community could say 352 00:14:47,953 --> 00:14:49,455 oh those bad guys out there. 353 00:14:49,455 --> 00:14:52,458 You see they only want violence and robbers and so forth. 354 00:14:52,458 --> 00:14:54,026 This kind of rhetoric, I think, 355 00:14:54,026 --> 00:14:58,964 can promote physical conflict that dialogue itself carries 356 00:15:00,266 --> 00:15:03,802 no sort of virtue unless it's pointed into a direction 357 00:15:03,802 --> 00:15:06,338 in order to resolve a problem, you see? 358 00:15:14,947 --> 00:15:17,583 (gentle music)