WEBVTT 00:01.401 --> 00:04.270 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] "Firing Line" with William F. Buckley, Junior. 00:05.538 --> 00:07.640 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Isn't it true that 00:08.608 --> 00:10.643 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% certain jokes, 00:10.643 --> 00:14.614 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at least what were considered jokes 10, 20 years ago, 00:14.614 --> 00:16.950 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are now un-sayable as a result 00:16.950 --> 00:18.385 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of certain tensions that exist? 00:18.385 --> 00:20.387 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% For instance, certain racial jokes. 00:20.387 --> 00:22.288 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You couldn't have a minstrel show now, could you, 00:22.288 --> 00:23.757 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in Hollywood? - No. 00:23.757 --> 00:24.924 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Do you regret this? 00:26.226 --> 00:29.896 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I like minstrel shows because I was brought up 00:29.896 --> 00:34.234 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in that era, but I think it's wrong today. 00:34.234 --> 00:38.471 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the colored people have such a struggle today 00:38.471 --> 00:42.208 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I don't think there should be any jokes 00:42.208 --> 00:43.843 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% connected with them. 00:43.843 --> 00:48.815 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, but then, shouldn't it also be said that there 00:50.283 --> 00:52.285 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% oughtn't to have been Irish jokes, back when they were 00:52.285 --> 00:55.522 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% having a terrible time and dying like flies in 'Nam. 00:55.522 --> 00:57.724 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There shouldn't have been Jewish jokes 00:57.724 --> 00:59.793 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when they were fighting their way out of the ghettos 00:59.793 --> 01:00.460 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and so on, so forth? 01:00.460 --> 01:01.494 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - I still resent 01:01.494 --> 01:02.595 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Jewish jokes. - Give me your- 01:02.595 --> 01:04.197 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Publicly. - Do you? 01:04.197 --> 01:07.734 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And Irish jokes and Catholic jokes and all kinds of jokes. 01:07.734 --> 01:10.537 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [William] Did you ever tell Jewish jokes yourself? 01:10.537 --> 01:13.440 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I never said a Jewish word on the stage in 50 years. 01:13.440 --> 01:14.274 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [William] I didn't say a Jewish word, 01:14.274 --> 01:15.442 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I said a Jewish joke. 01:15.442 --> 01:16.743 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - No. 01:16.743 --> 01:19.012 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I might tell you one when the show's over, 01:19.012 --> 01:21.448 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but I never tell 'em publicly. 01:21.448 --> 01:22.715 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - This is what- - I don't regard myself- 01:22.715 --> 01:24.484 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - I wanna hear. - as a Jew 01:24.484 --> 01:25.885 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when I'm publicly performing. 01:25.885 --> 01:27.987 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm an actor, maybe a bad one, but I'm an actor. 01:29.355 --> 01:32.425 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - In other words, out of a sense of deference to people 01:32.425 --> 01:35.228 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who would not consider them funny, you wouldn't say them 01:35.228 --> 01:36.463 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to a general audience? 01:36.463 --> 01:37.864 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You would only say them to somebody who's- 01:37.864 --> 01:39.699 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Who I liked and knew. - Actively tested and knew. 01:39.699 --> 01:41.267 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And would understand it. - Yeah. 01:41.267 --> 01:42.602 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I resent Myron Cohen 01:43.736 --> 01:48.341 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that long farrago of Jewish jokes. 01:48.341 --> 01:52.345 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the Jews should have a dignity now the same as 01:52.345 --> 01:54.047 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Catholics and the Protestants. 01:54.047 --> 01:55.715 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Well, but is- - I must tell you- 01:55.715 --> 01:56.683 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - No, but wait a minute. 01:56.683 --> 01:57.617 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't wanna get off this, 01:57.617 --> 01:59.052 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because isn't it a sense- 01:59.052 --> 02:01.454 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I knew eventually you were gonna make this serious. 02:01.454 --> 02:02.889 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We were having fun before. 02:02.889 --> 02:04.724 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Why don't you keep it that way? 02:04.724 --> 02:06.359 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Tell me if it begins to hurt. 02:06.359 --> 02:07.594 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - No, it never hurts. 02:07.594 --> 02:08.661 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm proud of being a Jew, particularly- 02:08.661 --> 02:09.562 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - No, no, no. 02:09.562 --> 02:11.598 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Week before last. 02:11.598 --> 02:13.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (audience laughs) How do you feel, judge? 02:13.466 --> 02:15.101 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - So do I. 02:15.101 --> 02:17.203 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You have no animosity towards we people, do you? 02:17.203 --> 02:18.872 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - No. 02:18.872 --> 02:19.806 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Isn't he a charmer? 02:19.806 --> 02:22.742 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (everyone laughing) 02:22.742 --> 02:24.811 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - A lot of modern poetry, one doesn't really follow 02:24.811 --> 02:27.046 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in any narrative sense, does one? 02:27.046 --> 02:28.815 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, they probably could follow my hand gestures 02:28.815 --> 02:30.183 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and my eye face gestures. 02:30.183 --> 02:31.651 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You were very responsive, that was nice. 02:31.651 --> 02:32.952 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Yeah. - It's good. 02:32.952 --> 02:33.987 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I enjoy it, I think it's very beautiful. 02:33.987 --> 02:35.655 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Now are you suggesting that the- 02:37.690 --> 02:39.859 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% because you took that while under LSD 02:39.859 --> 02:41.060 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you were able to do it? 02:42.162 --> 02:43.062 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Well, it's- 02:44.230 --> 02:45.999 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% No, I think it could be, it's a natural thing. 02:45.999 --> 02:50.103 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I cited Blake and Wordsworth as having that natural vision. 02:51.337 --> 02:55.475 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think the LSD thing is not an unnatural vision, 02:55.475 --> 02:58.278 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as evidenced by the particular details, 02:58.278 --> 02:59.812 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like sheep speckle the mountain side, 02:59.812 --> 03:01.080 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% revolving (indistinct). 03:01.080 --> 03:02.815 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - That you recognized. - That you recognized. 03:02.815 --> 03:04.284 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% There are human things that, you know, 03:04.284 --> 03:06.252 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like everybody has seen in nature. 03:06.252 --> 03:09.889 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the LSD clarified my mind and left it open 03:09.889 --> 03:13.426 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to get that sense of giant, vast consciousness. 03:13.426 --> 03:14.861 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Specifically, the one thing I noticed, 03:14.861 --> 03:18.231 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which I was trying to describe, was that the ocean 03:18.231 --> 03:20.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of heaven, the atmosphere is like an ocean, 03:20.633 --> 03:22.769 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and at the bottom of that ocean of air, 03:22.769 --> 03:26.172 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there are all sorts of rivulets of winds, breezes, 03:26.172 --> 03:29.042 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that those rivulets, like at the bottom of a fish tank 03:29.042 --> 03:32.412 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% move all the trees, move the people around, the hair, 03:32.412 --> 03:35.949 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the beards, the grass, the lamb's wool, 03:35.949 --> 03:37.917 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% rain beaded in the grass. 03:37.917 --> 03:42.388 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So that it's like one system like one giant being breathing. 03:42.388 --> 03:46.859 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% One giant breathing being that we all are part of, 03:46.859 --> 03:50.697 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in which we always forget that we are together, 03:50.697 --> 03:53.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the god like of the universe. 03:54.767 --> 03:58.871 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You say together, but you're fond sometimes of saying 03:58.871 --> 04:03.009 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that it's not really together, that's you as individual 04:03.009 --> 04:07.614 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who is god, or anyone who discovers his consciousness. 04:07.614 --> 04:09.515 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Going back to that first question you asked, 04:09.515 --> 04:11.918 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like are the hippies the new order, 04:11.918 --> 04:15.722 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the primary hippie and beatnik originally, 04:15.722 --> 04:20.126 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% back 56, Cadillac, boroughs, perception was a recognition 04:20.126 --> 04:23.930 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of that unity of being, and recognition of that great 04:23.930 --> 04:28.768 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% consciousness which we all were identical with, see? 04:28.768 --> 04:31.704 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's what I think is the meaning of that flower power 04:31.704 --> 04:34.140 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you know, like make love, not war. 04:34.140 --> 04:37.277 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ultimately, it's like it's grounded in an understanding 04:37.277 --> 04:41.481 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the nature of the universe in that you can't fight us, 04:41.481 --> 04:43.149 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we can't fight us. 04:43.149 --> 04:47.787 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That force finally is you know like, at least at this level 04:49.188 --> 04:52.225 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of civilization, is just like a mess and it's not gonna 04:52.225 --> 04:56.062 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% resolve the problem, and the problem is seeing our unity, 04:56.062 --> 04:57.697 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% particularly black and white, 04:57.697 --> 05:01.034 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% particularly square and hippie, 05:01.034 --> 05:05.004 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% particularly police and student, 05:05.004 --> 05:10.076 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% particularly Birchite and (beep) individualist. (laughs) 05:11.844 --> 05:13.413 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - One thing, I don't think that the vote is as 05:13.413 --> 05:15.381 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a pure expression of the people at any given time anyway. 05:15.381 --> 05:17.450 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The vote is much too crude an instrument to measure 05:17.450 --> 05:20.553 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what real feelings are in the country. 05:20.553 --> 05:23.723 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Moreover, politics is extraordinarily complex 05:23.723 --> 05:25.591 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and dialectical and contradictory. 05:25.591 --> 05:29.195 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% For example, Nixon could get in and get in 05:29.195 --> 05:32.198 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on a pro-war policy and be the man to make the peace, 05:32.198 --> 05:34.767 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% precisely because he's a Republican and that's only a theory 05:34.767 --> 05:36.836 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of mine that it's the Democrats that start the wars 05:36.836 --> 05:38.905 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the Republicans who finish them. 05:38.905 --> 05:40.473 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Maybe because the Democrats always have to prove that 05:40.473 --> 05:41.941 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they're not Communists, so they always have to be very 05:41.941 --> 05:43.443 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% militant against the Communists. 05:43.443 --> 05:44.744 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Republicans don't have to prove that, 05:44.744 --> 05:47.347 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so they can make peace with the Communists. 05:47.347 --> 05:50.083 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If you look at the last few wars, that's how they've gone. 05:50.083 --> 05:51.684 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - You regret that? 05:51.684 --> 05:53.920 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, I think it's part of the pleasurable comedy 05:53.920 --> 05:55.355 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of politics as you can see. 05:56.622 --> 05:58.691 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't take politicians seriously except as adventurers. 05:58.691 --> 06:00.426 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think they are splendid fellas as adventurers 06:00.426 --> 06:02.228 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I admire many of their qualities. 06:02.228 --> 06:05.064 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I admire their ability to move from idea to idea 06:05.064 --> 06:06.032 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and bed to bed. 06:06.032 --> 06:07.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% At that, they're exceptional. 06:09.168 --> 06:10.069 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Well, 06:11.170 --> 06:13.339 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% you say that the Democrats are always 06:14.774 --> 06:16.976 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% feeling the necessity to prove that they're not Communists, 06:16.976 --> 06:19.846 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but are you glad that they're not Communists? 06:21.047 --> 06:22.148 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Am I glad they're not Communists? 06:22.148 --> 06:23.082 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Yeah. - All right, listen. 06:23.082 --> 06:24.317 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I detest Communism. 06:24.317 --> 06:25.451 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I detest it much more than you do, 06:25.451 --> 06:26.853 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause I know much more about it. 06:26.853 --> 06:29.122 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, I've read (indistinct), I've read Marx. 06:29.122 --> 06:30.823 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, studied it, I spent three months studying it. 06:30.823 --> 06:32.825 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I love Marx, you see, I just detest Communism 06:32.825 --> 06:34.360 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% 'cause it betrayed Marx. 06:34.360 --> 06:37.497 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's the way you might detest some awful Christian sect 06:37.497 --> 06:39.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that had completely betrayed Christ, you know. 06:42.969 --> 06:44.337 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 06:44.337 --> 06:47.106 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I certainly understand what you're talking about. 06:48.474 --> 06:51.677 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is, of course, true that the typical Communist 06:51.677 --> 06:54.280 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who lives, let's say on the other side of the Iron Curtain, 06:54.280 --> 06:58.184 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% would be much less frightened by our Naylor administration 06:58.184 --> 06:59.852 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than say by Buckley administration. 06:59.852 --> 07:01.187 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, I think they could comprehend- 07:01.187 --> 07:02.789 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - At least as far as they are concerned, 07:02.789 --> 07:05.258 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think they would probably consider the people I support 07:05.258 --> 07:07.794 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% as more irrelevant than anti-Communism people you support. 07:07.794 --> 07:09.796 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The last time you were heard of on the political ramparts 07:09.796 --> 07:13.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was on a committee on being friends to Castro, 07:13.166 --> 07:16.035 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a fair play for Castro committee or whatever. 07:16.035 --> 07:17.503 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I still am all for Castro. 07:17.503 --> 07:18.905 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think he's a remarkable man. 07:18.905 --> 07:20.406 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Let me just say that I think that the Communists 07:20.406 --> 07:21.808 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% would probably, well I can't pretend they would ever be 07:21.808 --> 07:23.609 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the least bit happy with you, they would feel 07:23.609 --> 07:25.478 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a certain security, which is they would feel they would 07:25.478 --> 07:27.513 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% have somebody, which I might be about to do next, 07:27.513 --> 07:29.015 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they couldn't ever feel that with me. 07:29.015 --> 07:31.517 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I love the way we treat each other as world leaders. 07:31.517 --> 07:34.387 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You see, I'm not the only narcissist in that. 07:34.387 --> 07:35.955 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You always told me to respect your metaphors, 07:35.955 --> 07:37.623 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% which I was doing. 07:37.623 --> 07:38.791 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I'm glad that we're beginning 07:38.791 --> 07:41.427 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find some conjunction of discourse. 07:42.528 --> 07:45.164 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm beginning to, well, let it go at that. 07:47.300 --> 07:50.136 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% See, I like to keep a certain freedom, 07:50.136 --> 07:52.405 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a certain liberty, to look at the lineaments 07:52.405 --> 07:54.006 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of major figures. 07:54.006 --> 07:56.576 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% For instance, just until the strike started in France 07:56.576 --> 07:58.044 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as of a week ago, I was thinking I thought 07:58.044 --> 08:00.413 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the two greatest political figures in the world today 08:00.413 --> 08:02.615 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were Fidel Castro and Charles de Gaulle. 08:04.016 --> 08:06.018 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Now I think I may still be able to say that a week from now, 08:06.018 --> 08:07.320 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause I think, so far I think de Gaulle's 08:07.320 --> 08:08.821 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% been acting sorta- 08:08.821 --> 08:11.357 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think he's the world's greatest living conservative. 08:11.357 --> 08:13.025 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think he's a remarkable man. 08:13.025 --> 08:14.694 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm tremendously fond of him. 08:14.694 --> 08:15.862 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have great respect for him. 08:15.862 --> 08:17.330 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have great respect for Castro. 08:17.330 --> 08:18.965 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The point is that, men's, you know, 08:18.965 --> 08:20.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's the way you wouldn't want one to have great respect 08:20.900 --> 08:23.736 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for saints and generals, 08:23.736 --> 08:26.672 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for criminals and cops. 08:26.672 --> 08:27.807 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, there's such a thing as a great cop, 08:27.807 --> 08:29.408 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% such a thing as a great criminal. 08:29.408 --> 08:31.477 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the way I work, it's very hard to explain this 08:31.477 --> 08:34.714 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to people, but I don't think in categories, I think rather- 08:34.714 --> 08:38.317 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I try to think this way, that the world is better off 08:38.317 --> 08:41.087 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if every so-called type in the world is better. 08:41.087 --> 08:42.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's a better world when the cops get better 08:42.655 --> 08:44.023 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the criminals get better. 08:44.023 --> 08:45.358 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's a poorer world when the cops are dull 08:45.358 --> 08:46.759 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the criminals are dull. 08:47.994 --> 08:50.997 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - In one of his essays, Mr. Chomsky writes quote, 08:50.997 --> 08:55.201 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "By accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate 08:55.201 --> 08:57.303 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "on certain issues, such as this one, 08:58.337 --> 09:00.606 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% "one has already lost one's humanity." 09:01.774 --> 09:03.776 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I should like to begin by asking him why, 09:03.776 --> 09:07.113 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% under the circumstances, if by being here he stands 09:07.113 --> 09:09.148 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to lose his humanity, 09:09.148 --> 09:11.651 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he consented to appear in the first place. 09:13.819 --> 09:16.923 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Because, first of all, I didn't quite put it 09:16.923 --> 09:18.157 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in those terms, I don't think. 09:18.157 --> 09:19.759 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I think that by- - You were overheard. 09:19.759 --> 09:21.727 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah, but I think that, I said that there are 09:21.727 --> 09:24.530 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% certain issues, for example Auschwitz, such that 09:24.530 --> 09:28.701 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by consenting to discuss them, one degrades oneself 09:28.701 --> 09:30.336 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to some degree loses one's humanity, 09:30.336 --> 09:31.771 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I think that that's true. 09:31.771 --> 09:33.739 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Nevertheless, I can easily imagine circumstances 09:33.739 --> 09:35.875 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in which I would've been glad to debate Auschwitz. 09:35.875 --> 09:38.244 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% For example, if there were some chance that 09:38.244 --> 09:40.346 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by debating Auschwitz it might've been possible 09:40.346 --> 09:43.983 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to eliminate it or to at least mitigate the horror 09:43.983 --> 09:45.284 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that was going on. 09:45.284 --> 09:47.520 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think I feel the same way about Vietnam. 09:47.520 --> 09:49.488 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I really think that there is no, 09:49.488 --> 09:51.824 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% fundamentally there is no argument anymore 09:52.959 --> 09:55.595 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at an intellectual level, in my opinion. 09:55.595 --> 09:57.930 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I think it's very important to discuss it, nevertheless. 09:57.930 --> 10:00.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - At what level is there an argument? 10:00.900 --> 10:01.801 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Well, there- 10:04.270 --> 10:07.607 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There is a policy, which I think is a destructive 10:07.607 --> 10:09.942 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and devastating policy, it's continuing. 10:11.310 --> 10:14.947 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the continuation of the policy is, to some extent, 10:16.349 --> 10:19.085 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% based on the fact of public apathy or public acceptance. 10:19.085 --> 10:23.255 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Hence there still is the necessity to convince people 10:23.255 --> 10:27.426 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that they should act strongly to put an end to this policy. 10:27.426 --> 10:30.296 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - At what point was there an intellectual argument? 10:30.296 --> 10:34.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At which point did an intellectual argument in favor 10:34.066 --> 10:37.603 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of our intervening in Vietnam cease to exist? 10:37.603 --> 10:40.473 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well as I say there, I think that there may have been 10:40.473 --> 10:43.209 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a time when there was something to debate. 10:43.209 --> 10:45.845 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% For example, I think that in the middle fifties, 10:45.845 --> 10:48.714 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% though I was opposed to the policy and I think that 10:48.714 --> 10:51.417 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it was right to be opposed to it, nevertheless I think 10:51.417 --> 10:54.687 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was a debatable issue in a sense in which it is 10:54.687 --> 10:55.855 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% no longer a debatable issue. 10:55.855 --> 10:57.356 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Why is that? 10:57.356 --> 10:58.791 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Because at the moment, I think it's really an issue 10:58.791 --> 11:03.529 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the survival of the existence of Vietnam as an entity, 11:03.529 --> 11:05.097 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a social and cultural entity. 11:05.097 --> 11:06.832 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think that's what's at stake. 11:06.832 --> 11:08.934 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% - But even that could be intellectually argued, couldn't it? 11:08.934 --> 11:10.670 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, in the same sense in which Auschwitz could be 11:10.670 --> 11:11.704 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% intellectually argued. - No, I mean 11:11.704 --> 11:12.638 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in a different sense. 11:12.638 --> 11:14.073 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - No I think in the same sense. 11:14.073 --> 11:15.741 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In fact, don't forget there were people who argued 11:15.741 --> 11:17.043 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in favor of Auschwitz. 11:17.043 --> 11:18.611 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, no, I haven't forgotten that at all. 11:18.611 --> 11:22.014 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I haven't had any such on this program, nor do I intend to. 11:22.014 --> 11:26.052 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But it seems to me that even if what you said were correct, 11:26.052 --> 11:28.587 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there could be a perfectly legitimate argument over, 11:28.587 --> 11:31.991 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for instance, the continuation of the state of Anguilla, 11:33.159 --> 11:35.327 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or the continuation of the state of Gafra, 11:35.327 --> 11:37.630 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or the continuation of the state of Goa. 11:37.630 --> 11:40.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I didn't talk about the existence of the state, 11:40.366 --> 11:42.401 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I talked about the existence of the society 11:42.401 --> 11:43.936 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a social and cultural entity. 11:43.936 --> 11:45.371 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think that's what's at stake. 11:45.371 --> 11:48.474 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Okay, well if it's a stake, mightn't there be 11:48.474 --> 11:52.278 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% two points of view about how to help it evolve 11:52.278 --> 11:55.181 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% into its natural forms, right? 11:55.181 --> 11:56.682 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh there are many different points of view. 11:56.682 --> 11:58.150 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think they're very legitimate. 11:58.150 --> 11:59.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I can see- - They're very legitimate. 11:59.685 --> 12:01.387 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% See, they're very legitimate issues that can be argued 12:01.387 --> 12:05.324 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as to how the United States ought to most efficaciously 12:05.324 --> 12:08.294 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% put an end to its destructive actions in Vietnam. 12:08.294 --> 12:09.929 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are many different alternatives that might be 12:09.929 --> 12:11.597 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% thought about. - Yes, the one way 12:11.597 --> 12:14.667 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of course to put an end to America's necessary intervention 12:14.667 --> 12:17.002 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is to conclude the war successfully. 12:17.002 --> 12:18.270 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% That's a way. - No, one possible way 12:18.270 --> 12:19.572 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is by destroying Vietnam, 12:19.572 --> 12:22.141 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which I think probably the most likely outcome. 12:22.141 --> 12:24.810 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You disagreed very strongly with Dick Gregory, 12:24.810 --> 12:29.882 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whom had indicated that the militant stance and symbolism 12:31.283 --> 12:35.154 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and rhetoric functionally could actually displace violence. 12:35.821 --> 12:37.189 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% If you see what I mean? 12:37.189 --> 12:41.560 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Perhaps, could you accept that as a phenomena 12:41.560 --> 12:43.462 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of a positive- - Yes. 12:43.462 --> 12:44.563 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - good that the Panthers 12:44.563 --> 12:46.732 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% have contributed? - Yes, I could. 12:46.732 --> 12:49.902 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Unfortunately, as much could be said of the Ku Klux Klan. 12:49.902 --> 12:52.538 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But it is true- - I think that- 12:52.538 --> 12:54.039 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Dick Gregory gave a concrete example, 12:54.039 --> 12:55.574 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you may not remember, 12:55.574 --> 12:59.578 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about a black woman who felt intimidated. 12:59.578 --> 13:00.880 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is about two or three years ago, 13:00.880 --> 13:03.616 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and she called the Black Panther headquarters there 13:03.616 --> 13:08.387 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and they sent someone to look out for her and he was armed. 13:08.387 --> 13:10.656 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% On the basis of the assurance that she got 13:10.656 --> 13:13.025 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from his presence, she did calm down 13:14.059 --> 13:16.162 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and recovered her stability. 13:16.162 --> 13:18.531 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there's no question that people can't form that kind 13:18.531 --> 13:21.801 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of a function, armed in that kind of a way, and I have no 13:21.801 --> 13:24.236 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% doubt that the leader of the Black Panthers did it. 13:24.236 --> 13:26.639 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I would like to say this, and I'm sorry if I interrupt. 13:26.639 --> 13:28.574 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% When people equate the Black Panther party 13:28.574 --> 13:31.010 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% with such people as the Ku Klux Klan 13:31.010 --> 13:35.614 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and White Citizens Council, I get sort of upset. 13:35.614 --> 13:37.883 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I agree that I would like to see a world, 13:37.883 --> 13:40.920 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we agree on more points than we probably have time 13:40.920 --> 13:44.590 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to realize now, but the point that dialog- 13:47.493 --> 13:51.030 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% dialectical struggle, I struggle just through the word. 13:51.030 --> 13:53.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would hope that that will probably be the next advance 13:53.833 --> 13:56.101 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as bad will come through and put the club down. 13:56.101 --> 13:59.638 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I think that there's certain objective kind 13:59.638 --> 14:02.274 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of difficulties have reached that point immediately. 14:02.274 --> 14:04.944 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think that things just don't happen, you start, 14:04.944 --> 14:06.278 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but as long as there's 14:07.112 --> 14:11.183 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% especially an economic interest, 14:11.183 --> 14:15.054 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% one has to support authority that he has to support, 14:15.054 --> 14:20.125 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% then he creates a rhetoric in order to sell that to a group, 14:21.393 --> 14:23.195 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to an army, to henchmen, then I think that this kind 14:23.195 --> 14:28.267 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of dialogue will be inflammatory and cause much violence 14:28.834 --> 14:30.002 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and so forth. 14:30.002 --> 14:31.570 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And I will even point out the history 14:31.570 --> 14:34.807 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the Black Panther party, I think the rhetoric ran amuck 14:35.941 --> 14:38.811 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the leadership, the influence is clearer 14:38.811 --> 14:40.646 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it caused many 14:41.647 --> 14:43.115 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% murders, 14:43.115 --> 14:45.918 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that it laid the foundation 14:45.918 --> 14:47.953 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so that even the black community could say 14:47.953 --> 14:49.455 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% oh those bad guys out there. 14:49.455 --> 14:52.458 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You see they only want violence and robbers and so forth. 14:52.458 --> 14:54.026 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This kind of rhetoric, I think, 14:54.026 --> 14:58.964 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% can promote physical conflict that dialogue itself carries 15:00.266 --> 15:03.802 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% no sort of virtue unless it's pointed into a direction 15:03.802 --> 15:06.338 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in order to resolve a problem, you see? 15:14.947 --> 15:17.583 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (gentle music)