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One of the greatest beauties 
of a book, in my opinion,

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is that there's no passport 
needed to take you places

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you want to go 
or never even knew existed.

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Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, 
the host of Books by the River.

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I'm here 
to navigate the conversation

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of those who draw the maps

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for some of the most 
interesting journeys

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that are bound in a book.

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♪

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♪

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♪

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♪

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Major funding for 
Books by the River

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is brought to you by the ETV 
Endowment of South Carolina.

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For more than 40 years, the ETV 
Endowment of South Carolina

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has been a partner of 
South Carolina ETV

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and South Carolina Public Radio.

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This program is supported by 
South Carolina Humanities,

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a not for profit organization 
inspiring, engaging,

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and enriching South Carolinians

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with programs on literature, 
history, culture, and heritage.

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SC Humanities receives funding 
from the National Endowment

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for the Humanities. 
Democracy demands wisdom.

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Additional funding for Books by 
the River is provided by

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Visit Beaufort, 
Port Royal and Sea Islands

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and Osher Lifelong Learning 
Institute at USC Beaufort.

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Holly> We have the pleasure of 
talking to Rhonda McKnight today

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Rhonda, thanks so much

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for joining us here in beautiful 
Beaufort for Books by the River.

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Rhonda> 
Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm excited to 
talk to you today.

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Holly> And traveled 
from just down the road

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in Manning, South Carolina.

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I have to give the small towns 
a little shout out.

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Tell us a little bit

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about yourself and kind of what 
brought you to writing books

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and how many you have 
and all that stuff.

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Rhonda> 
Well, I am a mom first.

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I have two sons, 
32 and 18.

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I've been writing, I think, 
since I was a little girl,

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probably age six.

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I remember my I think 
the writing began as drawings.

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My father was,

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in technical college, 
and he used to have the

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he was taking a drafting class,

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and he had these 
big sheets of paper.

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And so I used to take 
the ones that were scraps

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and draw pictures on the back.

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And I began 
to make picture books.

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And so my first story 
was a story

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about a family of mice 
that lived under the boardwalk

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in Asbury Park, 
where I grew up in New Jersey.

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So it began there and continued 
until through high school.

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I wrote for the school paper

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and just kind of stopped in 
college, got busy with

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you know, writing 
for school and got away from it

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until my late 20s, 
when I sort of remembered

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I was reading a great book 
and thinking,

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"You know, 
I used to write books," and

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I had gotten away from it 
and decided that I wanted to,

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you know, try my hand 
at writing a novel again.

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Holly> You know, 
I hear so many stories of that,

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whether it's musicians 
or writers

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who started, 
they took this little break,

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but it's always kind of tugging 
at them.

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Let's 
go back to those original days.

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Is there a moment, 
although you started

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maybe like 5 or 6,

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was there a time whenever 
someone said, hey,

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I think you have a gift or 
you kind of knew within yourself

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I might be onto something here?

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Rhonda> You know, I really 
didn't and I think I believed

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that everyone had 
stories and charachters

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and like these voices 
in their head.

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And it wasn't until 
I was in college that I had

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a professor I'd written 
a paper, rushed to get it done.

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It was one of those 
all night things.

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And he said to me,

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he asked me what my major was, 
and he said, "You know,

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have you ever thought 
about writing?"

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And I thought, 
"Well, no, not really."

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And he said, "Well, you know,

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I think you have some talent 
there.

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Like if you did 
a little more work on this,

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you could get this published."

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And that was the first time 
I thought, like,

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"Everyone doesn't write well?" 
<laughs>

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Holly> Yeah, you thought this 
was just the norm!

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Rhonda> -that it was the norm.

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And so I consider that 
and again, just sort of tucked

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it away, like I said, 
until I was in my late 20s.

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So it was that 
I think that my 10th grade,

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English teacher, honors 
English teacher,

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- Mrs. Mitchell, 
I'll never forget her.

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I dedicated my first novel 
to her -

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always told me 
that I had a gift with words,

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and she made me the editor 
of the high school paper.

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And so I knew that I kind of had 
these little clues

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that people thought 
that I could write,

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but I never really embraced it 
in any way

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until I was reading a Terry 
McMillan novel.

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I think it was Terry McMillan.

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And I thought, "Wow," 
waiting to exhale.

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And I thought,

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this is a wonderful story about 
these beautiful black women,

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and I could do this, 
you know?

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I think seeing her books 
kind of gave me a sense that,

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this was something I could do.

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You know, I always say 
representation really

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does matter.

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Holly> Tell me about your 
writing style and when that

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might have taken a shift into 
writing something different.

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Rhonda> You know, 
I always wanted to write novels.

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Even when I was a kid.

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What I was writing was books.

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Like, I never wrote poetry.

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My dad was a poet.

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My brother is a poet.

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I never wrote short stories.

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I actually still struggled 
to write short.

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I always wanted to write books.

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And so I started taking 
some writing workshops after I

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sort of got that buzz, you know, 
like, "Oh, maybe I should try."

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I took a couple of writing 
workshops,

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joined a writer's group,

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and then joined a critique group 
and just really studied

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for years.

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But I kept sort of 
getting to seven chapters

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and never moving past that.

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I had a lot of ideas.

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I would pick up 
and try a new one.

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I wasn't finishing anything,

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and it wasn't until 2003 
that I decided, you know,

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I really need to pick 
one project, commit to it

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and finish it.

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And so it took me four years, 
but I finally did.

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And that ended up 
being my first novel,

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and I sold it that same year.

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Holly> 
Wow. Okay.

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So you get that first one down 
and then I mean, that was it.

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There you go. Right?

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You just keep writing 
and writing.

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Tell me how many you're at now,

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and kind of your writing process 
in terms of like a schedule.

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Rhonda> So I write full time now 
which is a beautiful thing

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to be able to do.

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I have, I think I have 27 books 
I should have counted.

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<laughs> Holly> I love that you 
say, "I think."

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You're at that point where 
you're like <laughs>

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Rhonda> 27 or 28. And so, 
which is really exciting.

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I started off writing 
relationship fiction -

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my first three novels - 
and then the imprint

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that I was published 
with dissolved.

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And so I didn't have a book deal 
anymore, and

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I decided to self-publish,

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and I self-published 
my first romance.

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I wrote 22 of those.

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And then during the pandemic, 
I started thinking about

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kind of thinking about my legacy 
as a writer.

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And I wanted to write 
something that I thought was,

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even though I love romance, 
and I know

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romance is the number one 
selling genre of all books,

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I wanted to write something 
that felt like

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a little more important, 
something that included

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my favorite genre, 
which is history.

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But with respect to my schedule, 
I am not an everyday writer.

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I know people say, 
"Write every day!

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You'll be a better writer." 
And I believe that that's true.

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But my schedule just doesn't 
permit

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for me to write every day.

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I sort of am 
one of those people who write

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when I have a deadline. 
I write

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when it's time to write a book 
and so I write pretty quickly.

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Not as fast today 
as I was maybe ten years ago,

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but I sit down, I do a complete 
outline, and, you know,

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you've probably 
heard of "pansters,"

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I am the 
opposite of a "pantster."

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I must have an outline to know 
where I'm going.

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I typically write 
the first chapter first,

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the last chapter second, 
and then figure out

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what's happening in the middle.

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And so I always have to know 
exactly how my book is going

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to end, or I'm very miserable 
in the writing process.

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So I'm very much an outliner 
who gets to know my characters

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really well, or as well 
as I can before I start writing.

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And then,

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I write pretty much

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10-11 hour days 
until I finish that project.

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Holly> 
Wow, that is a lot.

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But I love connecting dots 
within the interviews,

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and I've already done that here, 
because remember

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you talked 
about that college paper

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and how it was one of those 
rush things.

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You were up all night 
going so hard at it.

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And then that's 
when the professor

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really noticed something.

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And so then here you are

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the same way 
when you write your books,

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you have to be on 
that kind of rushed schedule.

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I'm kind of like that myself, 
so I know how this goes.

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It's like you love it and 
hate it all at the same time.

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Rhonda> 
Love and hate it for sure.

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Holly> 
Like, "Why am I like this?"

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But no, 
this is how I have to be.

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All right, 
so tell me about the pandemic

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and how that shifted all of us 
in some form or fashion.

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I think we all have 
the story of like,

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00:09:01,066 --> 00:09:03,933
who we were before 
pandemic and who we are now.

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Tell me about 
your change as a writer

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and why you kind of 
went to that realization of,

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I want to do something that 
means something more than just,

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not just, but I mean, it was 
romance, entertainment.

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Why did you decide that 
you needed to make that shift?

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Rhonda> 
You know, I was gardening,

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and I was not a 
pandemic gardener.

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I'd been gardening before.

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I was sitting in the garden

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and behind the garden, 
there are cornfields.

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Across the street 
there's wheat and there's cows,

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and both of my grandfathers 
were farmers on both sides.

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And I started thinking 
about the legacy of farmers

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in South Carolina 
and specifically the legacy

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of Black farmers, and how much 
that was lost during Jim Crow.

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And I thought, gosh, 
I want to write about this, but

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I didn't know how. I mean, 
I was at that time,

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I had stopped writing in 2018.

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I was a full time writer.

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I was writing romance 
that was paying the bills.

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But I kept thinking, I want to 
write something different.

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I was editing a lot that year

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because I do some freelance 
editing, so I wasn't really

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writing very much for myself 
or for my readers.

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And so

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I started thinking

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about what kind of character 
would the readers

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who currently read me, 
where would they follow me?

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And so that was sort of swirling 
around in my head

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and in my spirit. 
And one day,

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I was sitting out in the yard 
and I saw this woman,

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being left at the altar 
by her husband

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00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:34,833
at a vow renewal.

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And I thought, 
"That's the kind of character

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that my current readers 
would follow me to."

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And then I could, 
set this story on a farm.

245
00:10:44,333 --> 00:10:49,000
I felt like I wanted readers, 
I wanted to introduce my readers

246
00:10:49,133 --> 00:10:50,766
and anyone else that I could

247
00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:54,600
to the beauty that I had 
discovered in South Carolina.

248
00:10:54,733 --> 00:10:58,666
I traveled to South Carolina 
my whole life during the summers

249
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,933
for a week or two as a child,

250
00:11:01,066 --> 00:11:04,500
and so that was a very important 
part of my childhood.

251
00:11:04,633 --> 00:11:07,800
But it was kind of, you come, 
you're on vacation, you leave.

252
00:11:07,933 --> 00:11:11,800
And so I did not have 
a real appreciation

253
00:11:11,933 --> 00:11:15,966
for the beauty and the history, 
the culture.

254
00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:19,066
So many things 
that I've learned

255
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,033
about South Carolina as a child 
until I moved here.

256
00:11:22,166 --> 00:11:24,533
And so I wanted 
to write about that.

257
00:11:24,666 --> 00:11:28,233
And I think that the pandemic 
really

258
00:11:28,366 --> 00:11:31,966
helped me to feel like 
it was okay to shift,

259
00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:36,566
and it was time to do something 
that felt more important to me.

260
00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:38,533
Holly> 
That was still quite a risk.

261
00:11:38,666 --> 00:11:41,066
I mean, you already had 
this established group.

262
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,100
Were you nervous 
that they might not follow,

263
00:11:43,233 --> 00:11:45,533
but still 
you were willing to go there?

264
00:11:45,666 --> 00:11:48,400
Rhonda> Absolutely. 
I was very nervous.

265
00:11:48,533 --> 00:11:51,166
You know, books 
that are independently published

266
00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:52,666
sometimes can be less expensive.

267
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,800
You know, people are downloading 
from their Kindles

268
00:11:54,933 --> 00:11:55,866
and things like that.

269
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,500
And so, traditionally 
published

270
00:11:57,633 --> 00:11:58,800
books are more expensive.

271
00:11:58,933 --> 00:12:02,266
And so I was very concerned 
that people would not follow me,

272
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,133
but I decided 
I had to trust the story.

273
00:12:06,266 --> 00:12:10,166
I had to, 
I knew it would find readers,

274
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:12,100
and hopefully it would be 
some of the readers

275
00:12:12,233 --> 00:12:14,133
who currently read me, and then

276
00:12:14,266 --> 00:12:16,133
there would be new readers 
and that would be okay.

277
00:12:16,266 --> 00:12:20,300
And I just needed to trust that 
where I wanted to go was okay,

278
00:12:20,433 --> 00:12:25,766
and I couldn't allow myself 
to feel trapped

279
00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:29,166
in writing something that I 
didn't want to write anymore.

280
00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:30,833
Holly> 
Now you had these

281
00:12:30,966 --> 00:12:32,766
roots in South Carolina, 
so you had family

282
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:34,700
you would visit, 
but you weren't from here.

283
00:12:34,833 --> 00:12:37,166
Tell me about that 
research process

284
00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:40,200
and the discovery process. 
What was that like for you?

285
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:42,866
Rhonda> It was enjoyable. 
It was a lot of fun.

286
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,866
I did a lot of driving around.

287
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,866
I drove to Georgetown, where 
the novel is actually set,

288
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,400
spent time there, just kind of 
riding the streets,

289
00:12:52,533 --> 00:12:55,033
looking at things, 
getting a sense of things,

290
00:12:55,166 --> 00:12:58,033
feeling like 
sort of the energy of the area.

291
00:12:58,166 --> 00:13:01,800
And I did a lot of research 
at the Avery Research Center,

292
00:13:01,933 --> 00:13:03,433
which is a part 
of the University

293
00:13:03,566 --> 00:13:06,300
of College of Charleston,

294
00:13:06,433 --> 00:13:09,133
which is an amazing repository 
of information.

295
00:13:09,266 --> 00:13:10,500
The staff is so helpful.

296
00:13:10,633 --> 00:13:12,266
There was just so much there.

297
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,566
I really, really enjoyed, 
I love research,

298
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:17,066
I think I love research 
more than I like writing,

299
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,233
like I don't write every day, 
but I would research every day.

300
00:13:19,366 --> 00:13:23,233
And so I had to sort of 
<laughs> turn the research off

301
00:13:23,366 --> 00:13:26,466
because I get so, 
caught up in it

302
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,566
that I fall in love 
with learning about history

303
00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:32,566
and about 
other people's stories.

304
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,000
Holly> 
I'm glad to hear that you,

305
00:13:34,133 --> 00:13:38,366
you went places 
because I know it's so easy now

306
00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:39,900
with, you know, 
all the technology we have,

307
00:13:40,033 --> 00:13:41,033
where you could just sit in

308
00:13:41,166 --> 00:13:42,833
your living room 
and do all this research.

309
00:13:42,966 --> 00:13:44,266
Tell me what 
it's like to actually

310
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,866
go to these places, 
touch, feel, see,

311
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,466
and the difference that makes

312
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,700
and how it translates 
into your writing.

313
00:13:50,833 --> 00:13:53,166
Rhonda> 
I think that for me, it

314
00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:55,166
because I do 
do a lot of research online,

315
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:58,200
but I notice the difference 
between when I've researched

316
00:13:58,333 --> 00:14:01,200
some place online 
and then I go visit,

317
00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:03,300
I just get a different sense.

318
00:14:03,433 --> 00:14:09,233
I am one of those writers 
who has to immerse herself

319
00:14:09,366 --> 00:14:10,666
in the characters 
and the stories.

320
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,633
I always say I'm always writing.

321
00:14:12,766 --> 00:14:14,000
I don't care if I'm eating,

322
00:14:14,133 --> 00:14:16,800
washing dishes, like, they're 
marinating around in my spirit.

323
00:14:16,933 --> 00:14:20,566
And so when I go to those 
locations, it's the same thing.

324
00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:22,766
I feel like, 
okay, I'm a part of this,

325
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:24,200
and sometimes things 
look different

326
00:14:24,333 --> 00:14:26,133
than they do 
on the internet also.

327
00:14:26,266 --> 00:14:28,866
And then the beautiful thing 
is, I meet people

328
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,000
and I ask questions because 
I've never met a stranger.

329
00:14:31,133 --> 00:14:32,433
I'm just like my mother.

330
00:14:32,566 --> 00:14:36,100
And so, one example is 
I visited the Gullah Museum

331
00:14:36,233 --> 00:14:40,800
just to, kind of take pictures, 
look at some of the history

332
00:14:40,933 --> 00:14:43,833
there, and ended up 
spending four hours

333
00:14:43,966 --> 00:14:47,033
there talking to the man 
who owns the museum, and another

334
00:14:47,166 --> 00:14:50,166
man who gave me quite 
a bit of history,

335
00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:53,500
of South Carolina's 
educational system

336
00:14:53,633 --> 00:14:56,066
in Georgetown, 
which I needed for my book.

337
00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,266
And so I think that boots on 
the ground gets you a lot more.

338
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:02,533
And I know that sometimes people

339
00:15:02,666 --> 00:15:04,400
can't because of depending 
on where they're writing.

340
00:15:04,533 --> 00:15:05,633
But for me, I'm

341
00:15:05,766 --> 00:15:08,533
right here in South Carolina, 
it's a 90 minute drive.

342
00:15:08,666 --> 00:15:10,066
I spend a lot of time

343
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,800
driving the streets 
and just sort of feeling,

344
00:15:14,933 --> 00:15:17,300
trying to feel 
what my characters would feel

345
00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:18,600
if they were here.

346
00:15:18,733 --> 00:15:22,300
Holly> I keep saying in my head, 
"marinating in the spirit,"

347
00:15:22,433 --> 00:15:24,066
because I thought 
that was beautiful.

348
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,700
So I really like how you said 
that. All right.

349
00:15:26,833 --> 00:15:29,166
So we talked a little bit 
earlier about the

350
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,266
the risk taking of those 
few of those, readers.

351
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,333
Do they follow you 
and how did they accept it?

352
00:15:35,466 --> 00:15:38,466
Rhonda> You know, quite a 
many of them did.

353
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,400
You know, I check out my, 
my analytics and my newsletter

354
00:15:41,533 --> 00:15:42,566
Holly> 
Isn't that fun?

355
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:44,600
Rhonda> And so I think that 
quite a many of them did.

356
00:15:44,733 --> 00:15:47,466
And so some of the reviews 
that they have written for me

357
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:48,566
are beautiful.

358
00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:51,333
And it's so funny 
because so many times they say,

359
00:15:51,466 --> 00:15:54,966
oh, you know, "I wasn't sure 
what you were doing.

360
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:57,000
I'm not 
I really don't like reading, you

361
00:15:57,133 --> 00:16:00,633
know, history, I like romance 
or I like a contemporary story."

362
00:16:00,766 --> 00:16:04,233
And they were always so 
pleased, like, oh my gosh,

363
00:16:04,366 --> 00:16:06,933
I think we even had a reader 
say to me,

364
00:16:07,066 --> 00:16:08,866
she said, "I think that we 
pigeonholed you.

365
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,966
We limited you, and

366
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:12,633
Now you're writing these

367
00:16:12,766 --> 00:16:15,766
beautiful, much richer 
stories." And like, she owned it

368
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:16,866
<laughs>

369
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,100
Holly> I know! 
Whenever you said,

370
00:16:18,233 --> 00:16:20,500
the reader said, 
"We pidgeonholed you."

371
00:16:20,633 --> 00:16:23,500
I loved that 
they thought they were like

372
00:16:23,633 --> 00:16:26,300
part of your process 
and that they were holding

373
00:16:26,433 --> 00:16:27,966
you back, 
and then they let you, you know,

374
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:29,866
taking ownership of it. 
That's really cool.

375
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,533
Rhonda> 
And I think that they were

376
00:16:31,666 --> 00:16:33,733
they felt that way 
because I spent a lot of time

377
00:16:33,866 --> 00:16:35,400
on social media 
talking to my readers.

378
00:16:35,533 --> 00:16:38,600
I do a lot of lives and chats 
and things and share a lot.

379
00:16:38,733 --> 00:16:41,366
And so they kind of knew, "Oh, 
I'm thinking about

380
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:42,800
doing this different thing, 
I don't know,

381
00:16:42,933 --> 00:16:44,500
I hope you guys will like it."

382
00:16:44,633 --> 00:16:47,500
And so they knew that 
I had that anxiety.

383
00:16:47,633 --> 00:16:50,333
And so they were able 
to, you know, then respond.

384
00:16:50,466 --> 00:16:51,700
Holly> 
Yeah, that's really neat

385
00:16:51,833 --> 00:16:53,266
that you make them 
part of the process.

386
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,766
So I'm sure that's part 
of what you do with them.

387
00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:57,533
And that's another thing

388
00:16:57,666 --> 00:17:01,933
with the pandemic, the shift 
and seeing so many authors go on

389
00:17:02,066 --> 00:17:05,200
and, go online and just kind of 
bring the readers in.

390
00:17:05,333 --> 00:17:06,966
I love the change

391
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:10,000
that that had on books 
and authors and readers.

392
00:17:10,133 --> 00:17:13,000
Tell me about that 
process for you and

393
00:17:13,133 --> 00:17:15,866
what's it like 
to have that connection?

394
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,433
Rhonda> I love it because 
I am very much

395
00:17:18,566 --> 00:17:19,600
sort of an extrovert.

396
00:17:19,733 --> 00:17:22,000
I think that a lot of my writing 
peers are not.

397
00:17:22,133 --> 00:17:23,566
They're introverts.

398
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,300
And so I sort of feed off 
people.

399
00:17:25,433 --> 00:17:28,700
So I enjoy 
talking to people. I enjoy,

400
00:17:28,833 --> 00:17:32,333
building those 
relationships with my readers

401
00:17:32,466 --> 00:17:34,966
and really hearing 
what they think and what they

402
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:36,600
what they like 
and what they don't like.

403
00:17:36,733 --> 00:17:41,133
And I'm really open 
to hearing what they like

404
00:17:41,266 --> 00:17:43,800
and what they don't like. 
And I don't take it personally.

405
00:17:43,933 --> 00:17:47,066
I think that when an author puts 
a book in the world,

406
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,100
it becomes the world's book.

407
00:17:50,233 --> 00:17:52,133
It becomes 
the readers experience.

408
00:17:52,266 --> 00:17:55,900
So no matter what, 
it's always the story.

409
00:17:56,033 --> 00:17:57,100
The story belongs to them now.

410
00:17:57,233 --> 00:18:00,033
Once I finish, once it's 
published, it belongs to them.

411
00:18:00,166 --> 00:18:04,700
So I've had people say to me, 
"Well, did this happen?"

412
00:18:04,833 --> 00:18:06,033
Or, "Did this really happen,

413
00:18:06,166 --> 00:18:07,266
because I thought 
it was this way?"

414
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,000
And "Is that 
what your intention was?"

415
00:18:09,133 --> 00:18:12,333
I said my intention was whatever 
it was that you experienced,

416
00:18:12,466 --> 00:18:15,400
you know, whatever you believe 
to be true about this

417
00:18:15,533 --> 00:18:18,400
relationship in the book 
is what's true.

418
00:18:18,533 --> 00:18:19,666
Holly> Right! Okay.

419
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,066
So I've been so captivated 
by you as an author, a writer.

420
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,533
I've failed to ask you 
about your book.

421
00:18:25,666 --> 00:18:27,000
Rhonda> <laughs> 
Holly> So here we are,

422
00:18:27,133 --> 00:18:28,166
Bitter and Sweet,

423
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:29,500
We don't want to 
leave that part out.

424
00:18:29,633 --> 00:18:30,900
Tell us about Bitter and Sweet,

425
00:18:31,033 --> 00:18:32,766
and kind of set the stage 
for it.

426
00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:34,966
Rhonda> Bitter and Sweet - I'm 
so excited about this book.

427
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:37,333
I think it's probably 
the best book that I've written.

428
00:18:37,466 --> 00:18:39,900
Maybe, I don't know, 
maybe all others feel like that.

429
00:18:40,033 --> 00:18:42,133
About your current book, 
but it's the story

430
00:18:42,266 --> 00:18:45,966
of estranged sisters 
who are at a crossroad,

431
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:47,433
who find the

432
00:18:47,566 --> 00:18:51,433
solutions to the problems 
they have in their lives

433
00:18:51,566 --> 00:18:54,866
and 100 year old letters from 
their great-great-grandmother.

434
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,233
The novel is 
written in dual timelines.

435
00:18:57,366 --> 00:18:59,566
So there's a contemporary story 
with the sisters,

436
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,100
and then there's 
a historical story.

437
00:19:01,233 --> 00:19:05,166
About 50% of the book 
is written in the past,

438
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,033
during the years of 1915 
and 1938, in Charleston, South

439
00:19:09,166 --> 00:19:12,966
Carolina, where their great 
great grandmother is

440
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:17,600
trying to build her own life,

441
00:19:17,733 --> 00:19:19,700
when she's left home wrong

442
00:19:19,833 --> 00:19:21,966
and has to figure out 
how to survive

443
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:24,300
when the only thing she knows 
how to do is cook.

444
00:19:24,433 --> 00:19:27,733
And so there are letters 
that she has written

445
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:28,966
during this time

446
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:31,300
that the sisters begin to read, 
and they find that

447
00:19:31,433 --> 00:19:34,700
a lot of the issues and problems 
they have in the present

448
00:19:34,833 --> 00:19:37,166
mirror the problems 
that their great-great-

449
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:38,633
grandmother had in the past.

450
00:19:38,766 --> 00:19:39,933
Holly> 
All right.

451
00:19:40,066 --> 00:19:44,366
And family dynamics can be 
complicated and joyful and sad.

452
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,000
And so tell us, 
what kinds of emotions

453
00:19:47,133 --> 00:19:49,166
will this book evoke?

454
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:50,666
Rhonda> 
 Bitter and Sweet  is, one...

455
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,433
it will evoke 
the bitter and the sweet.

456
00:19:52,566 --> 00:19:55,666
<laughs> 
There are lots of moments

457
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,666
where there's 
a lot of grandma wisdom

458
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,866
that I think 
bring warmth to the story.

459
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,233
There are some romantic elements 
because I continue

460
00:20:04,366 --> 00:20:06,866
to bring romance into my books 
a little,

461
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,800
and so there are sweet moments

462
00:20:08,933 --> 00:20:10,133
with some of the male 
characters.

463
00:20:10,266 --> 00:20:12,633
There's some humor, 
there's lots of food.

464
00:20:12,766 --> 00:20:15,500
So there are a lot of places 
where there's comfort,

465
00:20:15,633 --> 00:20:17,733
but there's also some difficult 
places.

466
00:20:17,866 --> 00:20:20,533
The relationship 
between these two sisters is

467
00:20:20,666 --> 00:20:22,100
pretty bad, like they are,

468
00:20:22,233 --> 00:20:23,700
they have none at all.

469
00:20:23,833 --> 00:20:27,733
And in particular, one - they're 
both struggling with pain.

470
00:20:27,866 --> 00:20:31,300
It's largely 
a novel about grief,

471
00:20:31,433 --> 00:20:35,233
people having to overcome grief 
in different ways.

472
00:20:35,366 --> 00:20:39,533
Not just the sisters, but even 
their great-great-grandmother.

473
00:20:39,666 --> 00:20:42,800
And so there is a mental health 
rep in the book.

474
00:20:42,933 --> 00:20:45,233
There's 
actual therapy on the page,

475
00:20:45,366 --> 00:20:48,466
which I'm really proud of, 
how those scenes came out.

476
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,133
I think sometimes in the black 
community,

477
00:20:51,266 --> 00:20:53,500
people 
can be skittish about therapy.

478
00:20:53,633 --> 00:20:55,700
And then sometimes 
in Christian communities,

479
00:20:55,833 --> 00:20:58,800
people can be like, "Oh, well, 
we want Jesus to work it out,

480
00:20:58,933 --> 00:21:00,233
not a therapist."

481
00:21:00,366 --> 00:21:02,933
And so it was risky 
in that respect,

482
00:21:03,066 --> 00:21:05,666
but it has been loved 
by readers.

483
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,933
And so

484
00:21:07,066 --> 00:21:10,233
I think that people feel - 
people have communicated to me

485
00:21:10,366 --> 00:21:14,033
that they feel 
a lot of the warm,

486
00:21:14,166 --> 00:21:17,133
loving feelings that 
they usually get from my books,

487
00:21:17,266 --> 00:21:20,566
but also they're able 
to deeply reflect

488
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:23,733
on their own lives 
and kind of look at places where

489
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:25,633
maybe they're not as forgiving,

490
00:21:25,766 --> 00:21:27,633
or maybe they're hard 
on themselves.

491
00:21:27,766 --> 00:21:31,166
Maybe they feel trapped in 
shame. And then

492
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:34,466
I get to cheer on resilience 
because we all love the story

493
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,533
of a strong woman.

494
00:21:35,666 --> 00:21:36,700
Holly> 
Absolutely.

495
00:21:36,833 --> 00:21:39,066
It's clear that family 
is very important to you.

496
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,066
I mean, 
you came back to your roots.

497
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,633
Your father's 
here in the studio,

498
00:21:42,766 --> 00:21:45,033
which is really special to have. 
You've mentioned your sons.

499
00:21:45,166 --> 00:21:47,333
Tell me 
about your first readers.

500
00:21:47,466 --> 00:21:50,800
Who were your first readers 
and what did they mean to you?

501
00:21:50,933 --> 00:21:53,600
And do you take their advice? 
Tell me about that.

502
00:21:53,733 --> 00:21:57,600
My first readers were 
the women in my critique group

503
00:21:57,733 --> 00:22:01,266
who I met in 2003 and continue 
to be my friends.

504
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,400
Several of them 
went on to be published too.

505
00:22:04,533 --> 00:22:07,833
One of them is the first person 
who reads

506
00:22:07,966 --> 00:22:11,600
anything that I write. 
I have trusted her for

507
00:22:11,733 --> 00:22:13,833
I guess, you know, 15 years.

508
00:22:13,966 --> 00:22:17,066
And so she is - so, absolutely.

509
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,800
If she says it's good, 
I kind of think it's good?

510
00:22:20,933 --> 00:22:23,133
I mean, I really am 
one of those writers

511
00:22:23,266 --> 00:22:25,766
who, no matter what 
my editor says, no matter what

512
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,866
my critique partner says 
or other people,

513
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,866
until the reviews start 
coming in from readers,

514
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,700
it's never good until readers 
say it's good.

515
00:22:34,833 --> 00:22:37,266
But I have a great support 
system.

516
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,233
I believe in networking 
with other authors.

517
00:22:39,366 --> 00:22:42,700
I believe in, like, 
building those relationships

518
00:22:42,833 --> 00:22:44,733
because being an author can be

519
00:22:44,866 --> 00:22:47,533
lonely, very solitary, 
and so there are times

520
00:22:47,666 --> 00:22:48,600
when you're down

521
00:22:48,733 --> 00:22:50,300
and maybe 
your author friend is up,

522
00:22:50,433 --> 00:22:52,466
they have great news, or 
they're excited about something,

523
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,766
and we sort of, keep each 
other's feet to the fire.

524
00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:58,766
I always say, 
our hands on the keyboard.

525
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:00,566
Holly> I want to go back to one 
thing you mentioned,

526
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:04,200
and that was the mental health 
and the connection of,

527
00:23:04,333 --> 00:23:06,100
you know, 
as having the Christian faith,

528
00:23:06,233 --> 00:23:07,266
a lot of times that's ignored -

529
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,800
and you also mentioned 
the Black community.

530
00:23:09,933 --> 00:23:12,100
What has 
been the response from that?

531
00:23:12,233 --> 00:23:14,300
And were you nervous 
about going there?

532
00:23:14,433 --> 00:23:16,266
And did you get any backlash?

533
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,500
Rhonda> 
I was nervous.

534
00:23:17,633 --> 00:23:19,766
Once I realized that 
I was supported

535
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:21,900
at my publishing house, 
then I was no longer

536
00:23:22,033 --> 00:23:23,400
because I was hoping 
they were going to say,

537
00:23:23,533 --> 00:23:24,733
"Oh, we don't want so much

538
00:23:24,866 --> 00:23:26,933
of this in here," 
but they were wonderful.

539
00:23:27,066 --> 00:23:29,333
They wanted me to tell the story 
I wanted to tell.

540
00:23:29,466 --> 00:23:32,533
And so then 
I was a little nervous,

541
00:23:32,666 --> 00:23:36,333
about readers, I think 
probably more Christian readers

542
00:23:36,466 --> 00:23:39,400
than my own Black community.

543
00:23:39,533 --> 00:23:42,366
But people have said 
they never thought of that

544
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,166
therapy, 
that that's how it would look.

545
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,233
They thought therapists analyzed

546
00:23:46,366 --> 00:23:48,066
you, told you 
what was wrong with you.

547
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,900
Their impressions 
of what therapy

548
00:23:51,033 --> 00:23:53,900
could be changed 
based on the story.

549
00:23:54,033 --> 00:23:57,766
And I've had many, 
many people DM me

550
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:00,966
on social media and say that 
they're thinking about therapy.

551
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:02,800
They know that 
they need to forgive someone.

552
00:24:02,933 --> 00:24:05,300
They know that they are Mariah.

553
00:24:05,433 --> 00:24:09,433
They see themselves in 
the characters, and I love that.

554
00:24:09,566 --> 00:24:11,333
I've had a lot of that.

555
00:24:11,466 --> 00:24:13,400
Holly> Kind of affirmation that 
you made the right choice?

556
00:24:13,533 --> 00:24:15,200
Rhonda> It was absolutely 
the right choice.

557
00:24:15,333 --> 00:24:18,266
And I felt that it was before 
the book came out.

558
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,700
But then it was just like, 
well, we'll see, we'll see.

559
00:24:21,833 --> 00:24:23,566
So, now I see.

560
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:25,166
Holly> 
Love it. Alright.

561
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:27,700
That does it for this show. 
It goes by so fast -

562
00:24:27,833 --> 00:24:29,300
Rhonda> It does! 
Holly> especially when we have

563
00:24:29,433 --> 00:24:31,166
such an interesting conversation

564
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:32,533
So I really appreciate it.

565
00:24:32,666 --> 00:24:34,233
It's been a joy to talk to you.

566
00:24:34,366 --> 00:24:36,833
So thank you for coming here 
for Books by the River.

567
00:24:36,966 --> 00:24:39,433
And thank you all for 
joining us here.

568
00:24:39,566 --> 00:24:41,466
We know you have a choice 
of where you land,

569
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,033
and so the fact that you're here 
with us really means a lot.

570
00:24:44,166 --> 00:24:47,333
We'll see you right here 
next time on Books by the River.

571
00:24:47,466 --> 00:24:49,566
Rhonda> So I'm going

572
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,600
to open up and read a little 
from the prologue of the book.

573
00:24:52,733 --> 00:24:56,833
And this is the voice of 
Grandma Gail Cooper-Holland

574
00:24:56,966 --> 00:25:00,100
the sun had been swallowed 
by the dark of dust

575
00:25:00,233 --> 00:25:02,466
by the time I parked behind 
the restaurant.

576
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,000
I reached for my purse 
and stepped from the car.

577
00:25:05,133 --> 00:25:07,233
The keys jangled from 
my free hand as

578
00:25:07,366 --> 00:25:09,433
I walked to the back door.

579
00:25:09,566 --> 00:25:13,300
Lingering citrus from the oil 
cleanser I'd used on the floor

580
00:25:13,433 --> 00:25:17,066
rose to my nostrils 
at the opening of the door.

581
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,066
I was never here alone.

582
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,366
I never considered 
I'd have to be here alone.

583
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:25,533
Three weeks ago, 
the doctor had

584
00:25:25,666 --> 00:25:28,200
let my husband's 
condition slip from his mouth

585
00:25:28,333 --> 00:25:31,200
as easily as raw oysters 
slipped from the shell.

586
00:25:31,333 --> 00:25:33,600
"Your husband has 
had a massive stroke.

587
00:25:33,733 --> 00:25:35,366
He will need full time care.

588
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:38,333
A skilled nursing 
facility is your best option."

589
00:25:38,466 --> 00:25:43,900
And then Odell's words, 
"Gail, keep on a promise."

590
00:25:44,033 --> 00:25:53,900
♪

591
00:25:54,033 --> 00:26:03,900
♪

592
00:26:04,033 --> 00:26:13,933
♪

593
00:26:14,066 --> 00:26:19,566
♪

594
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:21,233
Major funding for 
Books by the River

595
00:26:21,366 --> 00:26:24,333
is brought to you by the ETV 
Endowment of South Carolina.

596
00:26:24,466 --> 00:26:27,766
For more than 40 years, the ETV 
Endowment of South Carolina

597
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,000
has been a partner of 
South Carolina ETV,

598
00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,666
and South Carolina Public Radio.

599
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,600
This program is supported by 
South Carolina Humanities,

600
00:26:35,733 --> 00:26:38,766
a not for profit organization 
inspiring, engaging,

601
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:40,500
and enriching South Carolinians

602
00:26:40,633 --> 00:26:44,300
with programs on literature, 
history, culture, and heritage.

603
00:26:44,433 --> 00:26:47,566
SC Humanities receives funding 
from the National Endowment

604
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:50,300
for the Humanities. 
Democracy demands wisdom.

605
00:26:50,433 --> 00:26:52,900
Additional funding for Books by 
the River is provided by

606
00:26:53,033 --> 00:26:55,400
Visit Beaufort, 
Port Royal and Sea Islands

607
00:26:55,533 --> 00:26:59,266
and Osher Lifelong Learning 
Institute at USC Beaufort.

608
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,000
♪

609
00:27:04,133 --> 00:27:07,900
♪