1 00:00:00,366 --> 00:00:02,100 [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 2 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:04,566 we'll look at challenges and potential solutions 3 00:00:04,566 --> 00:00:07,166 to bring energy to Sub-Saharan Africa. 4 00:00:07,166 --> 00:00:09,866 - If the energy is there and you can't afford it, 5 00:00:09,866 --> 00:00:11,700 we shouldn't be counting that as access. 6 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:14,600 There is a need to bring out other indicators, 7 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,366 issues like reliability, 8 00:00:16,366 --> 00:00:17,666 affordability, 9 00:00:17,666 --> 00:00:20,200 as well as the quality and quantity of the supply. 10 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,066 - We need Western partners to be thoughtful 11 00:00:23,066 --> 00:00:26,033 in the way they address both energy access 12 00:00:26,033 --> 00:00:27,600 and climate change, 13 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,833 and really speak to what people want in these countries, 14 00:00:30,833 --> 00:00:33,566 rather than trying to impose our priorities. 15 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,866 [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 16 00:00:35,866 --> 00:00:37,366 Energy for Africa. 17 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:41,000 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 18 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,100 was provided in part by 19 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:46,666 The University of Texas at Austin, 20 00:00:46,666 --> 00:00:49,000 leading research in energy and the environment 21 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,000 for a better tomorrow. 22 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,700 What starts here changes the world. 23 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:57,133 [upbeat music] 24 00:00:57,133 --> 00:00:58,366 - I'm Scott Tinker, 25 00:00:58,366 --> 00:01:00,366 and I'm an energy scientist. 26 00:01:00,366 --> 00:01:02,133 I work in the field, 27 00:01:02,133 --> 00:01:03,266 lead research, 28 00:01:03,266 --> 00:01:04,633 speak around the world, 29 00:01:04,633 --> 00:01:06,066 write articles, 30 00:01:06,066 --> 00:01:08,666 and make films about energy. 31 00:01:08,666 --> 00:01:11,366 This show brings together leading experts 32 00:01:11,366 --> 00:01:14,200 on vital topics in energy and climate. 33 00:01:14,666 --> 00:01:16,466 They may have different perspectives, 34 00:01:16,466 --> 00:01:19,500 but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 35 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:22,833 and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 36 00:01:23,733 --> 00:01:26,233 Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 37 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:30,700 There are 600 million people in Sub-Saharan Africa 38 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:32,800 who do not have modern energy. 39 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,366 So African nations are working 40 00:01:34,366 --> 00:01:36,833 to develop their energy resources. 41 00:01:36,833 --> 00:01:40,800 For many, the energy they do have comes largely from hydro, 42 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,366 but Africa also has huge volumes of natural gas. 43 00:01:44,366 --> 00:01:46,933 Some funders, concerned about emissions, 44 00:01:46,933 --> 00:01:48,900 don't want them to develop it. 45 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:50,600 Others consider it essential 46 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,266 to help lift Africa's people out of poverty. 47 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,466 We'll discuss this and other tensions with 48 00:01:57,466 --> 00:01:58,766 Michael Dioha. 49 00:01:58,766 --> 00:02:02,600 He's a senior energy system analyst at Clean Air Task Force 50 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,200 and a fellow at the Energy for Growth Hub. 51 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,066 He did his post-doctoral research at Stanford. 52 00:02:08,766 --> 00:02:12,166 Vijaya Ramachandran is director of energy and development 53 00:02:12,166 --> 00:02:13,866 for the Breakthrough Institute, 54 00:02:13,866 --> 00:02:17,000 and formerly a senior economist at the World Bank, 55 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,300 with her PhD in economics from Harvard. 56 00:02:20,733 --> 00:02:22,333 Next on "Energy Switch," 57 00:02:22,333 --> 00:02:24,833 we'll talk about how to bring energy to Africa. 58 00:02:26,133 --> 00:02:27,766 Let's just start with a big picture. 59 00:02:27,766 --> 00:02:31,266 I mean, why should our viewers be concerned about 60 00:02:31,266 --> 00:02:34,766 what it means in Sub-Saharan Africa, particularly, 61 00:02:34,766 --> 00:02:36,566 what it means to bring energy there? 62 00:02:36,566 --> 00:02:39,133 - I think viewers should be concerned about the fact 63 00:02:39,133 --> 00:02:42,500 that there are 600 million people in Sub-Saharan Africa 64 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:46,366 who do not have access to reliable or cheap electricity. 65 00:02:46,366 --> 00:02:47,366 - Six hundred million. 66 00:02:47,366 --> 00:02:48,366 - Six hundred million. 67 00:02:48,366 --> 00:02:49,733 [Scott] That's almost two United States. 68 00:02:49,733 --> 00:02:51,166 - It's a lot of people. - Yeah. 69 00:02:51,166 --> 00:02:53,233 - And you know, one in three schools 70 00:02:53,233 --> 00:02:55,100 does not have electricity. 71 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,833 Many hospitals suffer multiple power outages a day. 72 00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:00,666 Businesses are not able to get going 73 00:03:00,666 --> 00:03:02,900 because of power outages. 74 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:05,233 So the issue of energy access 75 00:03:05,233 --> 00:03:08,266 and reliable electricity in Sub-Saharan Africa 76 00:03:08,266 --> 00:03:10,266 is for me, one of the most important issues 77 00:03:10,266 --> 00:03:11,633 that we need to tackle 78 00:03:11,633 --> 00:03:14,933 from the perspective of ending poverty in Africa. 79 00:03:14,933 --> 00:03:15,733 - Yeah. 80 00:03:15,733 --> 00:03:17,266 - Just as Vijaya pointed out, 81 00:03:17,266 --> 00:03:20,633 we have huge people who have energy access deficits. 82 00:03:20,633 --> 00:03:22,666 So in order to satisfy their demand, 83 00:03:22,666 --> 00:03:24,666 it means that the energy demand from Africa 84 00:03:24,666 --> 00:03:26,366 is going to grow substantially. 85 00:03:26,366 --> 00:03:28,533 So if we're meant to get to net zero, 86 00:03:28,533 --> 00:03:31,000 the world has to think about how do we go about 87 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,566 providing this energy, right? 88 00:03:32,566 --> 00:03:33,800 And we should also remember 89 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,733 that even the materials from the transition, 90 00:03:35,733 --> 00:03:37,933 something like copper, cobalt, and so on, 91 00:03:37,933 --> 00:03:39,766 these are materials that come from Africa. 92 00:03:39,766 --> 00:03:41,366 Even the workforce. 93 00:03:41,366 --> 00:03:42,666 And when I'm talking about workforce, 94 00:03:42,666 --> 00:03:44,966 I mean skilled and well-trained workforce. 95 00:03:44,966 --> 00:03:47,366 Africa have the youngest population in the world, 96 00:03:47,366 --> 00:03:51,066 with about 40% of the population below 15 years, okay? 97 00:03:51,066 --> 00:03:52,633 So these are the people that will 98 00:03:52,633 --> 00:03:53,866 drive the transition tomorrow. 99 00:03:53,866 --> 00:03:56,900 So in essence, the world cannot achieve net zero 100 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:58,566 without Africa being at the table. 101 00:03:58,566 --> 00:03:59,700 - Right. 102 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:01,933 So many important thoughts there. 103 00:04:01,933 --> 00:04:02,833 Let's get into it. 104 00:04:02,833 --> 00:04:04,200 Let's kind of think about some of these 105 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,433 and start with some big level background here. 106 00:04:07,433 --> 00:04:08,700 We tend to say Africa. 107 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,900 Well, Africa comprises lots of nations, 108 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:14,833 lots of different resources and educational levels 109 00:04:14,833 --> 00:04:18,500 and governmental systems and backgrounds. 110 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:20,533 Let's talk about that broadly. 111 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:22,933 What's the state of energy in Africa? 112 00:04:22,933 --> 00:04:25,300 You know, a real high level, Michael? 113 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:27,133 - I would say broadly speaking, 114 00:04:27,133 --> 00:04:31,433 Africa's energy system is one that is underdeveloped, 115 00:04:31,433 --> 00:04:34,233 but with huge opportunities for growth. 116 00:04:34,233 --> 00:04:36,100 When you look at the electricity sector, 117 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:38,500 I think the biggest challenge is access. 118 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:41,533 A lot of African countries have huge deficit. 119 00:04:41,533 --> 00:04:44,166 If you see a country like Niger and Burundi, 120 00:04:44,166 --> 00:04:46,866 electricity access is really, really low. 121 00:04:46,866 --> 00:04:48,700 However, there have been huge progress. 122 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:52,100 If you see like a country like Ghana, Kenya and Rwanda, 123 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:53,633 these are countries that are on track 124 00:04:53,633 --> 00:04:57,033 to achieve universal energy access by 2030. 125 00:04:57,033 --> 00:05:00,033 So in essence, it's a system that is 126 00:05:00,033 --> 00:05:03,433 developing huge opportunity for investment, 127 00:05:03,433 --> 00:05:06,333 and I think we are moving on track right now 128 00:05:06,333 --> 00:05:08,000 to achieve that. - Yeah, right. 129 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,866 - There's no question that Africa's going to need 130 00:05:10,866 --> 00:05:13,233 a lot more energy, you know, 131 00:05:13,233 --> 00:05:16,066 several times what it currently consumes. 132 00:05:16,066 --> 00:05:20,000 I like to say that what the average Ethiopian or Nigerian 133 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,833 consumes in electricity in a year, 134 00:05:22,833 --> 00:05:25,766 the average American consumes in four or five days. 135 00:05:25,766 --> 00:05:27,733 So really, we will need to see, you know, 136 00:05:27,733 --> 00:05:31,000 a substantial amount of investment in the energy sector. 137 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,700 - What do you see the biggest challenge is? 138 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:34,933 - I think two things, right? 139 00:05:34,933 --> 00:05:39,566 One is that we really want to see international investors 140 00:05:39,566 --> 00:05:41,333 invest more in the sector 141 00:05:41,333 --> 00:05:44,166 in terms of being able to exploit these resources. 142 00:05:44,166 --> 00:05:45,233 They are doing a lot, 143 00:05:45,233 --> 00:05:46,833 but I think they could be doing more. 144 00:05:46,833 --> 00:05:47,833 - Investment. 145 00:05:47,833 --> 00:05:49,366 Different from aid, you mean, right? 146 00:05:49,366 --> 00:05:50,633 - Correct, correct. - True investment. 147 00:05:50,633 --> 00:05:52,866 - Yes, true investment in the sense of financing, you know, 148 00:05:52,866 --> 00:05:56,266 providing co-financing for these kinds of projects. 149 00:05:56,266 --> 00:06:00,400 It needs to be tailored to what African governments want 150 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,633 and what the needs are of the citizens of the countries 151 00:06:04,633 --> 00:06:07,233 where these deposits are held. 152 00:06:07,233 --> 00:06:09,433 But I see some disconnect between 153 00:06:09,433 --> 00:06:11,266 what people are saying they want 154 00:06:11,266 --> 00:06:14,166 and what the international organizations 155 00:06:14,166 --> 00:06:15,966 think Africa should be doing. 156 00:06:15,966 --> 00:06:16,900 - Yes. 157 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:18,566 - You know, there is the sense, I think, 158 00:06:18,566 --> 00:06:21,800 amongst particularly the richer countries in the west 159 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,000 that Africa should develop using wind and solar alone. 160 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,466 - Even though we didn't do it. [laughs] 161 00:06:27,466 --> 00:06:32,133 - Yes, we didn't do it and we're not still doing it. 162 00:06:32,133 --> 00:06:34,666 So for me, there's an enormous tension. 163 00:06:34,666 --> 00:06:36,400 There's a lot of hypocrisy there, 164 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,733 and I think that attitude has to end. 165 00:06:38,733 --> 00:06:39,833 - Interesting. 166 00:06:39,833 --> 00:06:41,566 So that's kind of under this big investment umbrella, 167 00:06:41,566 --> 00:06:43,033 but how it's structured. 168 00:06:43,033 --> 00:06:44,800 And your second area was? 169 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,733 - It has been difficult to set up 170 00:06:46,733 --> 00:06:49,333 these transmission and distribution systems 171 00:06:49,333 --> 00:06:51,533 in some countries, because it is difficult 172 00:06:51,533 --> 00:06:52,700 to do cost recovery, 173 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:54,500 and there have been issues around 174 00:06:54,500 --> 00:06:56,300 kind of maintaining the transmission lines 175 00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:00,166 and making the power companies profitable. 176 00:07:00,166 --> 00:07:01,533 I think that is a set of issues 177 00:07:01,533 --> 00:07:04,200 largely sort of in the domestic sphere, 178 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,333 particularly for the major African economies 179 00:07:06,333 --> 00:07:08,066 that they are trying to tackle. 180 00:07:08,066 --> 00:07:08,966 - Interesting. 181 00:07:08,966 --> 00:07:10,466 That's important. 182 00:07:10,466 --> 00:07:12,300 Michael, how do you see it? 183 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,533 - Well, I think the question we are not asking ourselves is 184 00:07:15,533 --> 00:07:19,300 why is it that people do not have access to energy? 185 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,466 So when you look at the projects 186 00:07:21,466 --> 00:07:24,900 that have been designed within the last 10 decades, 187 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:26,366 we need to focus more on 188 00:07:26,366 --> 00:07:29,200 projects that can provide productive sectors. 189 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,233 That is where people go to get income 190 00:07:31,233 --> 00:07:33,233 that they can use to provide energy for themselves. 191 00:07:33,233 --> 00:07:36,300 As I always say, I've never seen any rich person 192 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:37,900 that don't have access to energy. 193 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:38,833 [Scott] Correct. 194 00:07:38,833 --> 00:07:39,833 - To a large extent, 195 00:07:39,833 --> 00:07:42,266 energy access is an income access problem. 196 00:07:42,266 --> 00:07:44,866 So we also need to start thinking about ways 197 00:07:44,866 --> 00:07:47,966 to focus more on that and stop getting distracted 198 00:07:47,966 --> 00:07:50,366 by things that are not really solving the problem. 199 00:07:50,366 --> 00:07:53,366 So I think the way we design projects need to change 200 00:07:53,366 --> 00:07:56,300 and we need to put emphasis where emphasis need to be on. 201 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:57,633 And of course we need to keep on 202 00:07:57,633 --> 00:08:00,766 working on the regulatory environment as well. 203 00:08:00,766 --> 00:08:02,633 You know, when different governments come into power, 204 00:08:02,633 --> 00:08:04,400 their agenda can also change. 205 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:05,966 So even the policies that we have, 206 00:08:05,966 --> 00:08:08,666 we need to back them by an act of parliament, 207 00:08:08,666 --> 00:08:10,466 or depending on the system of government, 208 00:08:10,466 --> 00:08:11,766 but it has to be a law. 209 00:08:11,766 --> 00:08:13,933 And this is the kind of things that encourage investors 210 00:08:13,933 --> 00:08:16,533 to come into your country and invest. 211 00:08:16,533 --> 00:08:18,866 - Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned energy access, 212 00:08:18,866 --> 00:08:22,000 but then also income access. 213 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,266 And it's kind of a chicken and egg, right? 214 00:08:25,266 --> 00:08:26,333 - Exactly. 215 00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:27,966 - These things have to work well together. 216 00:08:27,966 --> 00:08:31,333 - Yeah, like we saw during the pandemic, right? 217 00:08:31,333 --> 00:08:34,133 About 10 million people who have gained access 218 00:08:34,133 --> 00:08:35,266 couldn't pay their bills, 219 00:08:35,266 --> 00:08:38,200 and they're going back to where they were previously. 220 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:39,200 - Yeah. 221 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,400 - And this is because they are poor. 222 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,100 Our understanding of this binary way of calculating it 223 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:47,433 that once you have connection to your house 224 00:08:47,433 --> 00:08:51,033 is actually a problem, because affordability 225 00:08:51,033 --> 00:08:52,400 is also a big issue. 226 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,066 If the energy is there and you can't afford it, 227 00:08:55,066 --> 00:08:56,866 we shouldn't be counting that as access. 228 00:08:56,866 --> 00:08:57,933 [Scott] Yes. 229 00:08:57,933 --> 00:08:59,600 - And this also means that we need to understand 230 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,100 that there's a need to bring out other indicators 231 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,066 to which we use to count energy access, 232 00:09:04,066 --> 00:09:07,033 such as issues like reliability, affordability. 233 00:09:07,033 --> 00:09:08,000 - Right. 234 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,200 [Michael] As well as the quality and quantity 235 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,266 of the supply. 236 00:09:10,266 --> 00:09:12,266 [Scott] You mentioned regulatory. 237 00:09:12,266 --> 00:09:13,833 I speak a lot around the world, 238 00:09:13,833 --> 00:09:19,100 and many times I've had young African students 239 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:21,833 come up to me and say, "I love what you're saying, 240 00:09:21,833 --> 00:09:24,333 but there's so much corruption. 241 00:09:24,333 --> 00:09:27,066 The money doesn't go where it's needed." 242 00:09:27,066 --> 00:09:28,100 Speak to that. 243 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:31,400 How does that play out in a regulatory system? 244 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,166 - A lot of efforts have been underway to address that, 245 00:09:35,166 --> 00:09:38,633 but it seems that when the more you look, the less you see. 246 00:09:38,633 --> 00:09:40,033 That's how corruption is. 247 00:09:40,033 --> 00:09:42,233 For instance, we have had a scenario where 248 00:09:42,233 --> 00:09:45,566 a task force was established to investigate corruption 249 00:09:45,566 --> 00:09:47,333 in the power sector. 250 00:09:47,333 --> 00:09:49,000 Then later, another task force established 251 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,700 to investigate that task force 252 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:52,633 that was investigating corruption 253 00:09:52,633 --> 00:09:55,300 because even task force became corrupt, right? 254 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:59,000 Yeah, so I don't have the full solution. 255 00:09:59,000 --> 00:09:59,966 - Right. 256 00:09:59,966 --> 00:10:01,633 - But we can start looking at other sectors, 257 00:10:01,633 --> 00:10:03,666 see how corruption is being addressed. 258 00:10:03,666 --> 00:10:05,600 The Energy for Growth Hub recently came up with 259 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,166 something they called power purchase agreement index. 260 00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:11,666 You know, how to show transparency 261 00:10:11,666 --> 00:10:13,766 on how poor purchase disagreements have been done, 262 00:10:13,766 --> 00:10:15,000 but corruption is difficult. 263 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,666 When you fight corruption, it fights back. 264 00:10:16,666 --> 00:10:17,666 - Yes. 265 00:10:17,666 --> 00:10:19,100 Any other thoughts? 266 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:20,300 - I think it's a, you know, 267 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:23,000 issue where we can learn maybe from other countries, 268 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,900 the transparency around contracts. 269 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:28,633 I think that could help a lot in terms of 270 00:10:28,633 --> 00:10:31,100 making these companies more profitable. 271 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:32,633 But I agree with Michael, 272 00:10:32,633 --> 00:10:35,133 these are a tough set of challenges. 273 00:10:35,133 --> 00:10:36,733 [Scott] Yes. 274 00:10:36,733 --> 00:10:40,000 The energy resources that exist in Africa today, 275 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,433 big continent, 276 00:10:41,433 --> 00:10:42,566 what are some of them? 277 00:10:42,566 --> 00:10:44,933 - Some countries are still majority gas fired. 278 00:10:44,933 --> 00:10:46,666 So Nigeria is a very large share 279 00:10:46,666 --> 00:10:48,666 of gas fired power, for example. 280 00:10:48,666 --> 00:10:52,266 But you know, Kenya has a lot of hydro resources. 281 00:10:52,266 --> 00:10:55,166 It has a lot of geothermal resources. 282 00:10:55,166 --> 00:10:58,633 There are countries in the north coast of Africa 283 00:10:58,633 --> 00:11:01,300 that are relying increasingly on wind, 284 00:11:01,300 --> 00:11:03,100 and there's solar everywhere 285 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:05,700 because it is, you know, so abundantly available. 286 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:10,300 I think the question is, how do we develop these resources 287 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:13,633 so that they're able to provide electricity at scale 288 00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:16,033 and to provide base-load power, 289 00:11:16,033 --> 00:11:18,500 you know, power on a continuous basis. 290 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:20,166 [Scott] Right. - And I think there, you know, 291 00:11:20,166 --> 00:11:24,033 we do need to be thinking about any renewable resources 292 00:11:24,033 --> 00:11:26,700 having a fossil backup. 293 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:28,966 And then there's some types of industrial activities 294 00:11:28,966 --> 00:11:31,433 for which natural gas is essential, 295 00:11:31,433 --> 00:11:35,533 and Africa sits on 600 trillion cubic feet of gas reserves. 296 00:11:35,533 --> 00:11:37,433 A third of that is in Nigeria. 297 00:11:37,433 --> 00:11:40,066 And you know, my view is that we will have to use 298 00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:44,866 some of those reserves to make fertilizer, for fuels, 299 00:11:44,866 --> 00:11:47,233 for industrial heating. 300 00:11:47,233 --> 00:11:49,566 So I think, you know, for the foreseeable future, 301 00:11:49,566 --> 00:11:51,400 we need a mix of fuels, 302 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,633 and I think we need to think about 303 00:11:53,633 --> 00:11:55,433 what makes sense for each country 304 00:11:55,433 --> 00:11:57,433 in terms of their endowments. 305 00:11:57,433 --> 00:11:59,133 - What about nuclear? 306 00:11:59,133 --> 00:12:01,033 - If you look at a country like Niger, 307 00:12:01,033 --> 00:12:03,466 they have huge abundance of uranium, 308 00:12:03,466 --> 00:12:05,000 which we need for nuclear. 309 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,500 In fact, Niger uranium is enough to power 310 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:09,066 the entire West Africa. 311 00:12:09,066 --> 00:12:10,900 Okay, but it has not been exploited. 312 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:13,166 Rather, we see countries like France, 313 00:12:13,166 --> 00:12:16,066 taking it to France to generate electricity there. 314 00:12:16,066 --> 00:12:17,900 However, the challenge with nuclear 315 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:21,066 is that the lead time is actually long. 316 00:12:21,066 --> 00:12:25,200 And even though we know that the cost per kilowatt is lower, 317 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,733 Africa don't have that kind of money at the moment. 318 00:12:27,733 --> 00:12:28,800 - Right. 319 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,266 - So that is why people are looking into things 320 00:12:30,266 --> 00:12:32,500 like the small modular reactors today, 321 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:35,500 looking into things like even micro reactors 322 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:37,800 that we are expecting in the next decade-- 323 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,066 - Right. - To come on board, yeah. 324 00:12:39,066 --> 00:12:40,133 - Yeah, it's interesting. 325 00:12:40,133 --> 00:12:43,633 It's almost like a distributed source in some ways. 326 00:12:43,633 --> 00:12:44,800 - Yeah. 327 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,266 - Instead of having to have the big power grids built. 328 00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:47,166 [Michael] Exactly. 329 00:12:47,166 --> 00:12:49,466 - We can put them where they're needed. 330 00:12:49,466 --> 00:12:51,333 - So for me, I believe that if we continue 331 00:12:51,333 --> 00:12:52,700 with the trajectory that we are going, 332 00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:55,000 as well as support from abroad, 333 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,066 nuclear will be one of the key ways 334 00:12:57,066 --> 00:12:58,800 to address Africa's energy challenge. 335 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:59,833 - Right. 336 00:12:59,833 --> 00:13:04,333 You're both describing a diverse portfolio. 337 00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:06,166 Some might listen to that and say, 338 00:13:06,166 --> 00:13:09,733 well yeah, but 600 million people coming out of poverty 339 00:13:09,733 --> 00:13:12,900 and starting to use fossil fuels partly, 340 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:14,166 how many CO2 emissions, 341 00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:15,533 what percentage of CO2 emissions 342 00:13:15,533 --> 00:13:17,766 is Africa responsible for today? 343 00:13:17,766 --> 00:13:21,066 - I think Africa now it's about four percent 344 00:13:21,066 --> 00:13:22,833 of global emissions. 345 00:13:22,833 --> 00:13:23,733 - The whole continent? 346 00:13:23,733 --> 00:13:25,366 - The whole continent. 347 00:13:25,366 --> 00:13:29,100 Emissions will start to rise as power consumption increases, 348 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:30,700 but it will not rise that much. 349 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:31,766 [Scott] Yeah. 350 00:13:31,766 --> 00:13:33,266 - So I don't think there's anything to fear here. 351 00:13:33,266 --> 00:13:34,933 I think there's a lot of scaremongering 352 00:13:34,933 --> 00:13:39,400 around poorer countries becoming richer and emitting more. 353 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,866 I really don't see the need to fear that. 354 00:13:41,866 --> 00:13:42,866 - Interesting. 355 00:13:42,866 --> 00:13:44,933 - Firstly, I want to even dispel the narrative 356 00:13:44,933 --> 00:13:45,966 that we should stop saying, 357 00:13:45,966 --> 00:13:48,000 "If Africa developed the way we developed." 358 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,300 Because it's not even existing. 359 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:50,733 Africa is not developing that way. 360 00:13:50,733 --> 00:13:52,600 So we should throw away that question. 361 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,833 In fact, about 22 countries in Africa outta the 54, 362 00:13:56,833 --> 00:13:59,300 their main source of energy is renewables. 363 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:00,933 - Solar, wind, hydro? 364 00:14:00,933 --> 00:14:02,566 - Mainly hydro. 365 00:14:02,566 --> 00:14:04,200 Then let us look at outlook, 366 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,166 the numbers into the future, right? 367 00:14:06,166 --> 00:14:11,333 Nigeria will be emitting about 0.5 tons per person by 2050. 368 00:14:11,333 --> 00:14:13,000 If we look at the U.S. emission today, 369 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,833 it's about 14 tons per capita, metric tons per capita, okay? 370 00:14:16,833 --> 00:14:21,500 So it's about 28 times more than what Africa is emitting. 371 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:25,633 So my question is the 96% of people who are emitting, 372 00:14:25,633 --> 00:14:27,666 that's where emphasis should be on. 373 00:14:27,666 --> 00:14:29,033 - Right. - And not Africa. 374 00:14:29,033 --> 00:14:30,400 - Yeah, excellent. 375 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,033 You've both mentioned different energies. 376 00:14:33,033 --> 00:14:34,466 I don't think I've heard either one of you 377 00:14:34,466 --> 00:14:36,700 say the word coal, 378 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:40,233 but you've said natural gas a lot. 379 00:14:40,233 --> 00:14:41,866 - You know, most African governments 380 00:14:41,866 --> 00:14:45,566 do not want to go down the path of investing in coal. 381 00:14:45,566 --> 00:14:46,600 - Right. 382 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,833 - The issue of coal is South Africa, 383 00:14:49,833 --> 00:14:52,966 which has substantial coal reserves. 384 00:14:52,966 --> 00:14:56,600 South Africa is in process of transitioning out of coal. 385 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,100 It's a difficult, long process, but they are doing it, 386 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,433 and they are receiving some support for it. 387 00:15:01,433 --> 00:15:03,600 On developing the natural gas reserves, 388 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,000 this is, you know, in my view, very much a transition fuel. 389 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,133 - Right. 390 00:15:08,133 --> 00:15:10,366 - But one that's very critical at this point in time. 391 00:15:10,366 --> 00:15:11,333 - Right. 392 00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:13,833 - If we can come up with low-cost, you know, 393 00:15:13,833 --> 00:15:17,333 scalable solutions for storage of renewables, 394 00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:19,333 we'll see more substitutes. 395 00:15:19,333 --> 00:15:20,466 - Right. 396 00:15:20,466 --> 00:15:23,566 - If we can make greener sources of fertilizer cheaper, 397 00:15:23,566 --> 00:15:27,733 and, you know, we're able to manufacture those at scale, 398 00:15:27,733 --> 00:15:31,500 we can substitute out of using natural gas for fertilizer. 399 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:32,500 [Scott] Yeah. 400 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:34,733 - But until we have those technologies, 401 00:15:34,733 --> 00:15:38,233 we cannot tell Africans that they cannot use fertilizer. 402 00:15:38,233 --> 00:15:39,300 - Yeah. 403 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:41,233 - Because it's, you know, it's too high emitting. 404 00:15:41,233 --> 00:15:44,000 I find that very immoral. 405 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,900 - Let's just kinda think about 406 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,300 the funding organizations again. 407 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:52,266 What do they do currently, 408 00:15:52,266 --> 00:15:57,666 and what are the results of those investments? 409 00:15:57,666 --> 00:16:01,300 - So there's a whole range of multilateral development banks 410 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:02,533 headed by the World Bank, 411 00:16:02,533 --> 00:16:05,800 which is the largest provider of financing 412 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,766 to developing countries. 413 00:16:07,766 --> 00:16:10,533 You know, because of this emphasis 414 00:16:10,533 --> 00:16:13,033 on tackling climate change, 415 00:16:13,033 --> 00:16:16,366 there has been a lot of pressure on these institutions 416 00:16:16,366 --> 00:16:20,266 to not finance any type of fossil fuels. 417 00:16:20,266 --> 00:16:21,733 You know, it has meant, I think, 418 00:16:21,733 --> 00:16:23,933 for countries trying to build out these resources, 419 00:16:23,933 --> 00:16:26,433 it has meant significant limits on 420 00:16:26,433 --> 00:16:29,333 what these institutions are willing to provide. 421 00:16:29,333 --> 00:16:30,333 [Scott] Right. 422 00:16:30,333 --> 00:16:31,800 - I think firstly we need to understand 423 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,533 that Africa have this image out there 424 00:16:34,533 --> 00:16:37,533 that it is a risky place to invest in. 425 00:16:37,533 --> 00:16:39,800 So you see that even the development finance 426 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,200 that we can be able to access 427 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,733 to access it at very high interest rates. 428 00:16:43,733 --> 00:16:45,200 If you look at Ghana, for instance, 429 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,566 Ghana have about 80% debt-to-GDP ratio, 430 00:16:48,566 --> 00:16:53,400 but Ghana will be accessing loans at about 10%, 12%, right? 431 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,966 Where if you look at a country like Greece, 432 00:16:54,966 --> 00:16:57,633 Greece, they have about 200 debt-to-GDP ratio. 433 00:16:57,633 --> 00:16:59,833 Greece has the access at two, three percent. 434 00:16:59,833 --> 00:17:03,233 So really what, who is, where is the risk, you know? 435 00:17:03,233 --> 00:17:06,200 So they should come down to Africa and see what's going on. 436 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,966 It's a profitable place. 437 00:17:07,966 --> 00:17:11,166 Then secondly, if you say that major goal 438 00:17:11,166 --> 00:17:13,600 is climate mitigation, right? 439 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,066 Why not also fund gas with CCS? 440 00:17:16,066 --> 00:17:17,033 [Scott] Right. 441 00:17:17,033 --> 00:17:18,666 - Africa can do, we have projects ongoing now 442 00:17:18,666 --> 00:17:22,233 here to retrofit even the existing gas plants with CCS. 443 00:17:22,233 --> 00:17:24,933 Our goal is not, we just want to emit, we want to use gas. 444 00:17:24,933 --> 00:17:27,966 No, Africans are also concerned about climate change. 445 00:17:27,966 --> 00:17:29,500 We are the ones impacted the most. 446 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,866 So we're also trying to clear our own path, right? 447 00:17:31,866 --> 00:17:34,900 If we can be able to internally mobilize finance, right, 448 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,433 both from public, private sector 449 00:17:36,433 --> 00:17:38,600 and even the African development bank. 450 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,033 We won't have it all, definitely. 451 00:17:40,033 --> 00:17:42,466 The investment needs are really, really high. 452 00:17:42,466 --> 00:17:44,600 But at least that will give us some leverage 453 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,133 to be able to make investments in some technologies 454 00:17:47,133 --> 00:17:49,366 that are of our own choice, 455 00:17:49,366 --> 00:17:51,266 and we need to understand the electricities 456 00:17:51,266 --> 00:17:55,433 both generation, transmission, distribution, and end use. 457 00:17:55,433 --> 00:17:56,600 [Scott] Right. 458 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,933 - So, so much of focus has been around the supply side. 459 00:17:58,933 --> 00:18:01,766 We don't look at what is going on in the other areas, right? 460 00:18:01,766 --> 00:18:05,100 So that undermines Africa's energy needs. 461 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:07,133 When we undermine that, it also limits 462 00:18:07,133 --> 00:18:09,700 the kind of investments that goes into the sector. 463 00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:10,900 - Yes, yeah. 464 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,566 What's the state of electricity distribution 465 00:18:12,566 --> 00:18:16,600 companies in Africa, or the discoms, as they're called? 466 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,066 - Right now, they are highly indebted. 467 00:18:19,066 --> 00:18:21,533 If you look at something like the distribution losses 468 00:18:21,533 --> 00:18:23,833 in some countries up to 15%. 469 00:18:23,833 --> 00:18:27,200 - So for part of that 15% loss is energy theft? 470 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,466 - Energy theft is part of it. 471 00:18:28,466 --> 00:18:30,766 So we have the technical losses as well as the market loss. 472 00:18:30,766 --> 00:18:31,933 - Okay, yeah. 473 00:18:31,933 --> 00:18:35,833 - So how do we go about addressing the problem? 474 00:18:35,833 --> 00:18:38,200 Firstly, that we need to bring them out of that debt. 475 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,033 And this can be done in different ways. 476 00:18:40,033 --> 00:18:43,600 You can do maybe debt refinancing, debt restructuring. 477 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,800 Then, we talk about electricity being stolen. 478 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,666 It is people who are poor that steal electricity. 479 00:18:49,666 --> 00:18:53,266 - I mean, if you're not energy poor, 480 00:18:53,266 --> 00:18:54,866 you don't have to steal it. 481 00:18:54,866 --> 00:18:56,866 - Have to steal it, yeah. [laughs] 482 00:18:56,866 --> 00:18:58,533 - It's pretty logical there. 483 00:18:58,533 --> 00:19:03,066 Transportation is being electrified 484 00:19:03,066 --> 00:19:04,333 in places in the world. 485 00:19:04,333 --> 00:19:06,400 Is there a role for EVs in Africa, 486 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,766 and how does that play out? 487 00:19:07,766 --> 00:19:09,966 - In the transportation sector, 488 00:19:09,966 --> 00:19:12,200 the problem is that we don't have good infrastructure, 489 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,566 and the system currently is dominated by fossil fuels. 490 00:19:15,566 --> 00:19:18,000 You know, more than 99% of the transportation 491 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,600 is dominated by diesel and gasoline. 492 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,366 However, recently there is huge growth in electrification 493 00:19:23,366 --> 00:19:25,066 of the transportation sector. 494 00:19:25,066 --> 00:19:26,833 So we'll see countries like Nigeria 495 00:19:26,833 --> 00:19:29,100 deploying electric buses. 496 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:30,500 There is also significant work 497 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:32,333 going on in places like Kenya. 498 00:19:32,333 --> 00:19:35,866 There is huge deployment of electric two-wheelers and so on. 499 00:19:35,866 --> 00:19:37,800 Then that will also build the basis 500 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,133 for the infrastructure for the four-wheelers. 501 00:19:40,133 --> 00:19:42,466 One of the things we still fight a lot on the continent 502 00:19:42,466 --> 00:19:44,100 is air pollution. - Sure. 503 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:46,600 - So governments are also looking towards EV 504 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,633 in the aspect of air pollution. 505 00:19:48,633 --> 00:19:50,900 So it's not driven just by decarbonization, 506 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:54,200 but more around socioeconomic and technical challenges. 507 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,300 - We often hear about the negative impacts of energy 508 00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,133 on the environment. 509 00:19:59,133 --> 00:20:02,833 There are positive impacts of energy on the environment too. 510 00:20:02,833 --> 00:20:04,800 What stands in the way, then, of, 511 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,666 is it purely understanding, 512 00:20:06,666 --> 00:20:08,866 or are there other forces at play here on, 513 00:20:08,866 --> 00:20:11,800 particularly as we're talking about electricity? 514 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,633 - We take electricity for granted. 515 00:20:13,633 --> 00:20:16,166 We take 24/7 internet for granted. 516 00:20:16,166 --> 00:20:18,666 We're able to charge our phones whenever we want. 517 00:20:18,666 --> 00:20:21,333 I think it's very hard in that context 518 00:20:21,333 --> 00:20:25,100 to then get people to think about what it's like 519 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:28,066 to have six or seven hours a day without power. 520 00:20:28,066 --> 00:20:30,433 We need to work harder to convince people, I think, 521 00:20:30,433 --> 00:20:32,733 that energy access is a real problem, 522 00:20:32,733 --> 00:20:34,666 that it's a devastating problem 523 00:20:34,666 --> 00:20:36,400 when you don't have enough energy 524 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,133 in hospitals or in schools, 525 00:20:38,133 --> 00:20:42,133 and that we need to be thinking about that simultaneously 526 00:20:42,133 --> 00:20:43,833 as we address climate change. 527 00:20:43,833 --> 00:20:45,900 - What do you think on this, Michael? 528 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:50,233 - I think we focus so much on mitigation and adaptation. 529 00:20:50,233 --> 00:20:51,166 - Yeah. 530 00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:53,066 - So when we're talking of climate change, 531 00:20:53,066 --> 00:20:56,333 for the rich countries, you have enough energy to adapt, 532 00:20:56,333 --> 00:20:58,200 but Africa don't have that energy. 533 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,300 [Scott] That's right. 534 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:01,333 - Really, we need to understand the basics properly 535 00:21:01,333 --> 00:21:03,833 and not just carry the way by the apocalyptic narrative 536 00:21:03,833 --> 00:21:06,400 that Africa might, you know, blow up our climate plans. 537 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,533 - Yeah. 538 00:21:07,533 --> 00:21:11,766 As we kinda recap here, energy access and affordability, 539 00:21:11,766 --> 00:21:16,000 just your thoughts on the key steps needed to do that. 540 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,900 - We need Western partners to be thoughtful 541 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:21,866 in the way they address both energy access 542 00:21:21,866 --> 00:21:23,833 and climate change. 543 00:21:23,833 --> 00:21:27,466 We need to encourage whatever efforts are happening, 544 00:21:27,466 --> 00:21:29,966 you know, around the world to provide energy access, 545 00:21:29,966 --> 00:21:32,233 understanding kind of what the goals 546 00:21:32,233 --> 00:21:35,600 and what the constraints are facing each country, 547 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,033 and really speak to what people want in these countries 548 00:21:39,033 --> 00:21:41,666 rather than trying to impose our priorities. 549 00:21:41,666 --> 00:21:46,000 I don't see Africa's development goals as negotiable. 550 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,500 Those are not negotiable. 551 00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:49,133 - Yeah, I love that. 552 00:21:49,133 --> 00:21:51,000 Your thoughts on that, Michael? 553 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,600 - So I think we need to start action immediately. 554 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:55,700 That is what is important, 555 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:58,233 and forget about all these side distractions 556 00:21:58,233 --> 00:21:59,666 that are disturbing us. 557 00:21:59,666 --> 00:22:01,766 We already have policy frameworks on ground 558 00:22:01,766 --> 00:22:02,833 in these countries. 559 00:22:02,833 --> 00:22:05,366 What we need to do is to tighten up those policies 560 00:22:05,366 --> 00:22:07,566 and back them with an act of parliament 561 00:22:07,566 --> 00:22:10,200 to encourage investors to come into the country. 562 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,500 But rather I prefer we do it effectively. 563 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:13,700 - Yes. 564 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:15,433 - Than doing it myopically the way we are doing it today. 565 00:22:15,433 --> 00:22:17,000 That has not led us to anywhere. 566 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,000 - Right. 567 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,400 And we have time, you feel, 568 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,566 to move through this in a sensible way? 569 00:22:23,566 --> 00:22:24,800 - The Western countries timelines 570 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,466 shouldn't be the timelines for Africa. 571 00:22:27,466 --> 00:22:30,266 You can achieve net zero here by 2050. 572 00:22:30,266 --> 00:22:33,166 Africa can achieve by 2080 or 2070. 573 00:22:33,166 --> 00:22:36,500 So don't just constrain Africa to your 2050. 574 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,033 And let us also remember that climate is a global thing. 575 00:22:40,033 --> 00:22:42,600 It's not Africa or America's problem. 576 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,533 So we need collective action, shared goal, 577 00:22:45,533 --> 00:22:47,466 but different responsibilities 578 00:22:47,466 --> 00:22:49,566 towards achieving that shared goal. 579 00:22:49,566 --> 00:22:50,800 - Interesting. 580 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,700 One world, one atmosphere. 581 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:55,100 Any final thoughts? 582 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:56,800 Anything we've missed? 583 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,133 - I mean, you know, as I said, 584 00:22:58,133 --> 00:23:01,266 I do feel that these development priorities 585 00:23:01,266 --> 00:23:05,000 are very, very important, and we need to remember that, 586 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,633 you know, having a prosperous Africa is good for everyone. 587 00:23:08,633 --> 00:23:10,133 It's good for the rich countries as well. 588 00:23:10,133 --> 00:23:11,600 There's more trading opportunities. 589 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,266 There's, you know, more opportunities 590 00:23:13,266 --> 00:23:15,633 to exchange information and to learn from each other. 591 00:23:15,633 --> 00:23:17,533 So it's important, I think, 592 00:23:17,533 --> 00:23:19,666 to keep those sort of global goals in mind 593 00:23:19,666 --> 00:23:21,500 and not get kind of sidetracked 594 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:24,733 by a single focus on any one particular problem. 595 00:23:24,733 --> 00:23:25,866 - Yeah. 596 00:23:25,866 --> 00:23:27,033 Final thoughts, Michael? 597 00:23:27,033 --> 00:23:29,100 Something we've missed that you'd like to communicate? 598 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,000 - Yeah, I think my final thoughts are three. 599 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,166 Firstly is that we need to stop looking at Africa 600 00:23:35,166 --> 00:23:38,433 as this one big village with all these people in it. 601 00:23:38,433 --> 00:23:41,766 There are 54 countries in Africa that are different. 602 00:23:41,766 --> 00:23:44,966 So therefore, solutions that we are tailoring for the region 603 00:23:44,966 --> 00:23:47,633 need to be unique for all these countries. 604 00:23:47,633 --> 00:23:49,500 Then secondly, when it comes to issues 605 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,166 relating to energy access, 606 00:23:51,166 --> 00:23:55,133 we need to put greater emphasis on productive use of energy. 607 00:23:55,133 --> 00:23:58,033 Understanding that energy is a means to an end 608 00:23:58,033 --> 00:23:59,966 and not an end in itself. 609 00:23:59,966 --> 00:24:02,466 And then lastly is on the issue of balancing 610 00:24:02,466 --> 00:24:06,533 climate and developmental energy goals in Africa. 611 00:24:06,533 --> 00:24:09,200 We need to be realistic and understand 612 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,800 that when the chips are down, 613 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,200 energy security takes a priority. 614 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,233 And when I'm talking of energy security, in this context, 615 00:24:15,233 --> 00:24:17,133 I'm talking about continuous supply 616 00:24:17,133 --> 00:24:19,400 of affordable and reliable energy. 617 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,766 And how are these policies going to be done? 618 00:24:21,766 --> 00:24:25,433 I would describe it as multi-objective policies. 619 00:24:25,433 --> 00:24:28,700 Affordability, reliability, and sustainability. 620 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:31,333 So when we design policies in this multi-objective, 621 00:24:31,333 --> 00:24:34,033 we are balancing these things that are all of important. 622 00:24:34,033 --> 00:24:35,300 We can be able to achieve 623 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,500 these development and climate goals on the continent 624 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:40,200 instead of just focusing on one. 625 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,533 - Right. - That is not leading us 626 00:24:41,533 --> 00:24:42,766 to anywhere that is meaningful. 627 00:24:42,766 --> 00:24:44,500 - Yeah. So well said. 628 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,633 Scott Tinker with a fascinating conversation 629 00:24:46,633 --> 00:24:48,666 about energy in Africa. 630 00:24:48,666 --> 00:24:50,066 This is "Energy Switch." 631 00:24:50,866 --> 00:24:52,233 African nations are working 632 00:24:52,233 --> 00:24:54,733 to bring electricity to their people. 633 00:24:54,733 --> 00:24:57,066 For this, many are looking to hydro, 634 00:24:57,066 --> 00:24:59,900 starting to grow solar, wind, and geothermal, 635 00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:02,533 and struggling to expand electricity transmission 636 00:25:02,533 --> 00:25:04,833 and distribution networks. 637 00:25:04,833 --> 00:25:07,533 But Africa could have 600 trillion cubic feet 638 00:25:07,533 --> 00:25:10,400 of natural gas resources, or more. 639 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,766 That gas could provide power generation 640 00:25:12,766 --> 00:25:15,866 to balance solar and wind and grow industry. 641 00:25:15,866 --> 00:25:18,700 Gas could also produce fertilizer domestically, 642 00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:22,133 making agriculture more productive and affordable. 643 00:25:22,133 --> 00:25:23,900 Our guests believe that investors 644 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,600 and international development banks and foundations, 645 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,400 mostly from wealthy nations, 646 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,900 should prioritize Africa's energy needs 647 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:32,400 over climate targets, 648 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,033 since a diverse energy portfolio in Africa 649 00:25:35,033 --> 00:25:37,533 would add little to global emissions. 650 00:25:37,533 --> 00:25:41,166 This could include broader funding for 651 00:25:41,166 --> 00:25:44,400 with demands for transparency in regulation and contracts 652 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,100 to reduce corruption. 653 00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:47,233 This approach could help 654 00:25:47,233 --> 00:25:49,466 raise income levels for all Africans 655 00:25:49,466 --> 00:25:51,800 and increase environmental investment. 656 00:25:54,233 --> 00:26:02,833 ♪ 657 00:26:02,833 --> 00:26:11,833 ♪ 658 00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:19,833 ♪ 659 00:26:20,733 --> 00:26:22,066 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 660 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:25,200 was provided in part by 661 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,700 The University of Texas at Austin, 662 00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:30,133 leading research in energy and the environment 663 00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,033 for a better tomorrow. 664 00:26:32,033 --> 00:26:35,566 What starts here changes the world.