WEBVTT 00:00.366 --> 00:02.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 00:02.100 --> 00:04.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we'll look at challenges and potential solutions 00:04.566 --> 00:07.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to bring energy to Sub-Saharan Africa. 00:07.166 --> 00:09.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - If the energy is there and you can't afford it, 00:09.866 --> 00:11.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% we shouldn't be counting that as access. 00:11.700 --> 00:14.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There is a need to bring out other indicators, 00:14.600 --> 00:16.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% issues like reliability, 00:16.366 --> 00:17.666 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% affordability, 00:17.666 --> 00:20.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% as well as the quality and quantity of the supply. 00:20.200 --> 00:23.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - We need Western partners to be thoughtful 00:23.066 --> 00:26.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% in the way they address both energy access 00:26.033 --> 00:27.600 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% and climate change, 00:27.600 --> 00:30.833 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and really speak to what people want in these countries, 00:30.833 --> 00:33.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% rather than trying to impose our priorities. 00:34.200 --> 00:35.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 00:35.866 --> 00:37.366 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Energy for Africa. 00:39.700 --> 00:41.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 00:41.000 --> 00:44.100 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 00:44.100 --> 00:46.666 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% The University of Texas at Austin, 00:46.666 --> 00:49.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% leading research in energy and the environment 00:49.000 --> 00:51.000 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 00:51.000 --> 00:53.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world. 00:55.900 --> 00:57.133 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [upbeat music] 00:57.133 --> 00:58.366 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - I'm Scott Tinker, 00:58.366 --> 01:00.366 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and I'm an energy scientist. 01:00.366 --> 01:02.133 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% I work in the field, 01:02.133 --> 01:03.266 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% lead research, 01:03.266 --> 01:04.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% speak around the world, 01:04.633 --> 01:06.066 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% write articles, 01:06.066 --> 01:08.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and make films about energy. 01:08.666 --> 01:11.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% This show brings together leading experts 01:11.366 --> 01:14.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% on vital topics in energy and climate. 01:14.666 --> 01:16.466 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% They may have different perspectives, 01:16.466 --> 01:19.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 01:19.500 --> 01:22.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 01:23.733 --> 01:26.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 01:27.700 --> 01:30.700 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% There are 600 million people in Sub-Saharan Africa 01:30.700 --> 01:32.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% who do not have modern energy. 01:32.800 --> 01:34.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% So African nations are working 01:34.366 --> 01:36.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to develop their energy resources. 01:36.833 --> 01:40.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% For many, the energy they do have comes largely from hydro, 01:40.800 --> 01:44.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but Africa also has huge volumes of natural gas. 01:44.366 --> 01:46.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Some funders, concerned about emissions, 01:46.933 --> 01:48.900 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% don't want them to develop it. 01:48.900 --> 01:50.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Others consider it essential 01:50.600 --> 01:53.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to help lift Africa's people out of poverty. 01:53.900 --> 01:57.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We'll discuss this and other tensions with 01:57.466 --> 01:58.766 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% Michael Dioha. 01:58.766 --> 02:02.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% He's a senior energy system analyst at Clean Air Task Force 02:02.600 --> 02:05.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and a fellow at the Energy for Growth Hub. 02:05.200 --> 02:08.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He did his post-doctoral research at Stanford. 02:08.766 --> 02:12.166 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Vijaya Ramachandran is director of energy and development 02:12.166 --> 02:13.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% for the Breakthrough Institute, 02:13.866 --> 02:17.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and formerly a senior economist at the World Bank, 02:17.000 --> 02:19.300 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% with her PhD in economics from Harvard. 02:20.733 --> 02:22.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Next on "Energy Switch," 02:22.333 --> 02:24.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% we'll talk about how to bring energy to Africa. 02:26.133 --> 02:27.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Let's just start with a big picture. 02:27.766 --> 02:31.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I mean, why should our viewers be concerned about 02:31.266 --> 02:34.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% what it means in Sub-Saharan Africa, particularly, 02:34.766 --> 02:36.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% what it means to bring energy there? 02:36.566 --> 02:39.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I think viewers should be concerned about the fact 02:39.133 --> 02:42.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that there are 600 million people in Sub-Saharan Africa 02:42.500 --> 02:46.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who do not have access to reliable or cheap electricity. 02:46.366 --> 02:47.366 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - Six hundred million. 02:47.366 --> 02:48.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Six hundred million. 02:48.366 --> 02:49.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% [Scott] That's almost two United States. 02:49.733 --> 02:51.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - It's a lot of people. - Yeah. 02:51.166 --> 02:53.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - And you know, one in three schools 02:53.233 --> 02:55.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% does not have electricity. 02:55.100 --> 02:58.833 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Many hospitals suffer multiple power outages a day. 02:58.833 --> 03:00.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Businesses are not able to get going 03:00.666 --> 03:02.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because of power outages. 03:02.900 --> 03:05.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% So the issue of energy access 03:05.233 --> 03:08.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and reliable electricity in Sub-Saharan Africa 03:08.266 --> 03:10.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is for me, one of the most important issues 03:10.266 --> 03:11.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that we need to tackle 03:11.633 --> 03:14.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% from the perspective of ending poverty in Africa. 03:14.933 --> 03:15.733 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 03:15.733 --> 03:17.266 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Just as Vijaya pointed out, 03:17.266 --> 03:20.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% we have huge people who have energy access deficits. 03:20.633 --> 03:22.666 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% So in order to satisfy their demand, 03:22.666 --> 03:24.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it means that the energy demand from Africa 03:24.666 --> 03:26.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% is going to grow substantially. 03:26.366 --> 03:28.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So if we're meant to get to net zero, 03:28.533 --> 03:31.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the world has to think about how do we go about 03:31.000 --> 03:32.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% providing this energy, right? 03:32.566 --> 03:33.800 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And we should also remember 03:33.800 --> 03:35.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that even the materials from the transition, 03:35.733 --> 03:37.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% something like copper, cobalt, and so on, 03:37.933 --> 03:39.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% these are materials that come from Africa. 03:39.766 --> 03:41.366 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Even the workforce. 03:41.366 --> 03:42.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And when I'm talking about workforce, 03:42.666 --> 03:44.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I mean skilled and well-trained workforce. 03:44.966 --> 03:47.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Africa have the youngest population in the world, 03:47.366 --> 03:51.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% with about 40% of the population below 15 years, okay? 03:51.066 --> 03:52.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So these are the people that will 03:52.633 --> 03:53.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% drive the transition tomorrow. 03:53.866 --> 03:56.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So in essence, the world cannot achieve net zero 03:56.900 --> 03:58.566 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% without Africa being at the table. 03:58.566 --> 03:59.700 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 03:59.700 --> 04:01.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So many important thoughts there. 04:01.933 --> 04:02.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Let's get into it. 04:02.833 --> 04:04.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Let's kind of think about some of these 04:04.200 --> 04:07.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and start with some big level background here. 04:07.433 --> 04:08.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% We tend to say Africa. 04:08.700 --> 04:11.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Well, Africa comprises lots of nations, 04:11.900 --> 04:14.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% lots of different resources and educational levels 04:14.833 --> 04:18.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and governmental systems and backgrounds. 04:18.500 --> 04:20.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Let's talk about that broadly. 04:20.533 --> 04:22.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% What's the state of energy in Africa? 04:22.933 --> 04:25.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% You know, a real high level, Michael? 04:25.300 --> 04:27.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - I would say broadly speaking, 04:27.133 --> 04:31.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Africa's energy system is one that is underdeveloped, 04:31.433 --> 04:34.233 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% but with huge opportunities for growth. 04:34.233 --> 04:36.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% When you look at the electricity sector, 04:36.100 --> 04:38.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I think the biggest challenge is access. 04:38.500 --> 04:41.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% A lot of African countries have huge deficit. 04:41.533 --> 04:44.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% If you see a country like Niger and Burundi, 04:44.166 --> 04:46.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% electricity access is really, really low. 04:46.866 --> 04:48.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% However, there have been huge progress. 04:48.700 --> 04:52.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If you see like a country like Ghana, Kenya and Rwanda, 04:52.100 --> 04:53.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% these are countries that are on track 04:53.633 --> 04:57.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to achieve universal energy access by 2030. 04:57.033 --> 05:00.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So in essence, it's a system that is 05:00.033 --> 05:03.433 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% developing huge opportunity for investment, 05:03.433 --> 05:06.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and I think we are moving on track right now 05:06.333 --> 05:08.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to achieve that. - Yeah, right. 05:08.000 --> 05:10.866 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - There's no question that Africa's going to need 05:10.866 --> 05:13.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% a lot more energy, you know, 05:13.233 --> 05:16.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% several times what it currently consumes. 05:16.066 --> 05:20.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I like to say that what the average Ethiopian or Nigerian 05:20.000 --> 05:22.833 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% consumes in electricity in a year, 05:22.833 --> 05:25.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the average American consumes in four or five days. 05:25.766 --> 05:27.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So really, we will need to see, you know, 05:27.733 --> 05:31.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% a substantial amount of investment in the energy sector. 05:31.000 --> 05:33.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - What do you see the biggest challenge is? 05:33.700 --> 05:34.933 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - I think two things, right? 05:34.933 --> 05:39.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% One is that we really want to see international investors 05:39.566 --> 05:41.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% invest more in the sector 05:41.333 --> 05:44.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of being able to exploit these resources. 05:44.166 --> 05:45.233 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% They are doing a lot, 05:45.233 --> 05:46.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but I think they could be doing more. 05:46.833 --> 05:47.833 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Investment. 05:47.833 --> 05:49.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Different from aid, you mean, right? 05:49.366 --> 05:50.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Correct, correct. - True investment. 05:50.633 --> 05:52.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Yes, true investment in the sense of financing, you know, 05:52.866 --> 05:56.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% providing co-financing for these kinds of projects. 05:56.266 --> 06:00.400 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% It needs to be tailored to what African governments want 06:00.400 --> 06:04.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what the needs are of the citizens of the countries 06:04.633 --> 06:07.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% where these deposits are held. 06:07.233 --> 06:09.433 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% But I see some disconnect between 06:09.433 --> 06:11.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what people are saying they want 06:11.266 --> 06:14.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and what the international organizations 06:14.166 --> 06:15.966 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% think Africa should be doing. 06:15.966 --> 06:16.900 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yes. 06:16.900 --> 06:18.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - You know, there is the sense, I think, 06:18.566 --> 06:21.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% amongst particularly the richer countries in the west 06:21.800 --> 06:26.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that Africa should develop using wind and solar alone. 06:26.000 --> 06:27.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Even though we didn't do it. [laughs] 06:27.466 --> 06:32.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Yes, we didn't do it and we're not still doing it. 06:32.133 --> 06:34.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So for me, there's an enormous tension. 06:34.666 --> 06:36.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% There's a lot of hypocrisy there, 06:36.400 --> 06:38.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and I think that attitude has to end. 06:38.733 --> 06:39.833 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 06:39.833 --> 06:41.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So that's kind of under this big investment umbrella, 06:41.566 --> 06:43.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but how it's structured. 06:43.033 --> 06:44.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And your second area was? 06:44.800 --> 06:46.733 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% - It has been difficult to set up 06:46.733 --> 06:49.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% these transmission and distribution systems 06:49.333 --> 06:51.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in some countries, because it is difficult 06:51.533 --> 06:52.700 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% to do cost recovery, 06:52.700 --> 06:54.500 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and there have been issues around 06:54.500 --> 06:56.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% kind of maintaining the transmission lines 06:56.300 --> 07:00.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and making the power companies profitable. 07:00.166 --> 07:01.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% I think that is a set of issues 07:01.533 --> 07:04.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% largely sort of in the domestic sphere, 07:04.200 --> 07:06.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% particularly for the major African economies 07:06.333 --> 07:08.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that they are trying to tackle. 07:08.066 --> 07:08.966 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 07:08.966 --> 07:10.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's important. 07:10.466 --> 07:12.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Michael, how do you see it? 07:12.300 --> 07:15.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Well, I think the question we are not asking ourselves is 07:15.533 --> 07:19.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% why is it that people do not have access to energy? 07:19.300 --> 07:21.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So when you look at the projects 07:21.466 --> 07:24.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that have been designed within the last 10 decades, 07:24.900 --> 07:26.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we need to focus more on 07:26.366 --> 07:29.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% projects that can provide productive sectors. 07:29.200 --> 07:31.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% That is where people go to get income 07:31.233 --> 07:33.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that they can use to provide energy for themselves. 07:33.233 --> 07:36.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% As I always say, I've never seen any rich person 07:36.300 --> 07:37.900 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% that don't have access to energy. 07:37.900 --> 07:38.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [Scott] Correct. 07:38.833 --> 07:39.833 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - To a large extent, 07:39.833 --> 07:42.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% energy access is an income access problem. 07:42.266 --> 07:44.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we also need to start thinking about ways 07:44.866 --> 07:47.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to focus more on that and stop getting distracted 07:47.966 --> 07:50.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% by things that are not really solving the problem. 07:50.366 --> 07:53.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So I think the way we design projects need to change 07:53.366 --> 07:56.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and we need to put emphasis where emphasis need to be on. 07:56.300 --> 07:57.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And of course we need to keep on 07:57.633 --> 08:00.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% working on the regulatory environment as well. 08:00.766 --> 08:02.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, when different governments come into power, 08:02.633 --> 08:04.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% their agenda can also change. 08:04.400 --> 08:05.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So even the policies that we have, 08:05.966 --> 08:08.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% we need to back them by an act of parliament, 08:08.666 --> 08:10.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% or depending on the system of government, 08:10.466 --> 08:11.766 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% but it has to be a law. 08:11.766 --> 08:13.933 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And this is the kind of things that encourage investors 08:13.933 --> 08:16.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to come into your country and invest. 08:16.533 --> 08:18.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned energy access, 08:18.866 --> 08:22.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but then also income access. 08:22.000 --> 08:25.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And it's kind of a chicken and egg, right? 08:25.266 --> 08:26.333 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Exactly. 08:26.333 --> 08:27.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - These things have to work well together. 08:27.966 --> 08:31.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Yeah, like we saw during the pandemic, right? 08:31.333 --> 08:34.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% About 10 million people who have gained access 08:34.133 --> 08:35.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% couldn't pay their bills, 08:35.266 --> 08:38.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they're going back to where they were previously. 08:38.200 --> 08:39.200 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 08:39.200 --> 08:42.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - And this is because they are poor. 08:42.400 --> 08:45.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Our understanding of this binary way of calculating it 08:45.100 --> 08:47.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that once you have connection to your house 08:47.433 --> 08:51.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% is actually a problem, because affordability 08:51.033 --> 08:52.400 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% is also a big issue. 08:52.400 --> 08:55.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% If the energy is there and you can't afford it, 08:55.066 --> 08:56.866 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% we shouldn't be counting that as access. 08:56.866 --> 08:57.933 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Yes. 08:57.933 --> 08:59.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - And this also means that we need to understand 08:59.600 --> 09:02.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that there's a need to bring out other indicators 09:02.100 --> 09:04.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to which we use to count energy access, 09:04.066 --> 09:07.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% such as issues like reliability, affordability. 09:07.033 --> 09:08.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 09:08.000 --> 09:09.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [Michael] As well as the quality and quantity 09:09.200 --> 09:10.266 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% of the supply. 09:10.266 --> 09:12.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% [Scott] You mentioned regulatory. 09:12.266 --> 09:13.833 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% I speak a lot around the world, 09:13.833 --> 09:19.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and many times I've had young African students 09:19.100 --> 09:21.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% come up to me and say, "I love what you're saying, 09:21.833 --> 09:24.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% but there's so much corruption. 09:24.333 --> 09:27.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The money doesn't go where it's needed." 09:27.066 --> 09:28.100 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% Speak to that. 09:28.100 --> 09:31.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% How does that play out in a regulatory system? 09:31.400 --> 09:35.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - A lot of efforts have been underway to address that, 09:35.166 --> 09:38.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% but it seems that when the more you look, the less you see. 09:38.633 --> 09:40.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's how corruption is. 09:40.033 --> 09:42.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% For instance, we have had a scenario where 09:42.233 --> 09:45.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% a task force was established to investigate corruption 09:45.566 --> 09:47.333 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% in the power sector. 09:47.333 --> 09:49.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Then later, another task force established 09:49.000 --> 09:50.700 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to investigate that task force 09:50.700 --> 09:52.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that was investigating corruption 09:52.633 --> 09:55.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% because even task force became corrupt, right? 09:55.300 --> 09:59.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Yeah, so I don't have the full solution. 09:59.000 --> 09:59.966 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 09:59.966 --> 10:01.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - But we can start looking at other sectors, 10:01.633 --> 10:03.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% see how corruption is being addressed. 10:03.666 --> 10:05.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Energy for Growth Hub recently came up with 10:05.600 --> 10:10.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% something they called power purchase agreement index. 10:10.166 --> 10:11.666 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% You know, how to show transparency 10:11.666 --> 10:13.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% on how poor purchase disagreements have been done, 10:13.766 --> 10:15.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but corruption is difficult. 10:15.000 --> 10:16.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% When you fight corruption, it fights back. 10:16.666 --> 10:17.666 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yes. 10:17.666 --> 10:19.100 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Any other thoughts? 10:19.100 --> 10:20.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - I think it's a, you know, 10:20.300 --> 10:23.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% issue where we can learn maybe from other countries, 10:23.000 --> 10:25.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the transparency around contracts. 10:25.900 --> 10:28.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I think that could help a lot in terms of 10:28.633 --> 10:31.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% making these companies more profitable. 10:31.100 --> 10:32.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But I agree with Michael, 10:32.633 --> 10:35.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% these are a tough set of challenges. 10:35.133 --> 10:36.733 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Yes. 10:36.733 --> 10:40.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The energy resources that exist in Africa today, 10:40.000 --> 10:41.433 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% big continent, 10:41.433 --> 10:42.566 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% what are some of them? 10:42.566 --> 10:44.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Some countries are still majority gas fired. 10:44.933 --> 10:46.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So Nigeria is a very large share 10:46.666 --> 10:48.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of gas fired power, for example. 10:48.666 --> 10:52.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But you know, Kenya has a lot of hydro resources. 10:52.266 --> 10:55.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% It has a lot of geothermal resources. 10:55.166 --> 10:58.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% There are countries in the north coast of Africa 10:58.633 --> 11:01.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that are relying increasingly on wind, 11:01.300 --> 11:03.100 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and there's solar everywhere 11:03.100 --> 11:05.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it is, you know, so abundantly available. 11:05.700 --> 11:10.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I think the question is, how do we develop these resources 11:10.300 --> 11:13.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% so that they're able to provide electricity at scale 11:13.633 --> 11:16.033 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and to provide base-load power, 11:16.033 --> 11:18.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% you know, power on a continuous basis. 11:18.500 --> 11:20.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. - And I think there, you know, 11:20.166 --> 11:24.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we do need to be thinking about any renewable resources 11:24.033 --> 11:26.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% having a fossil backup. 11:26.700 --> 11:28.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And then there's some types of industrial activities 11:28.966 --> 11:31.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% for which natural gas is essential, 11:31.433 --> 11:35.533 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and Africa sits on 600 trillion cubic feet of gas reserves. 11:35.533 --> 11:37.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% A third of that is in Nigeria. 11:37.433 --> 11:40.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you know, my view is that we will have to use 11:40.066 --> 11:44.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% some of those reserves to make fertilizer, for fuels, 11:44.866 --> 11:47.233 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for industrial heating. 11:47.233 --> 11:49.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think, you know, for the foreseeable future, 11:49.566 --> 11:51.400 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% we need a mix of fuels, 11:51.400 --> 11:53.633 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and I think we need to think about 11:53.633 --> 11:55.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% what makes sense for each country 11:55.433 --> 11:57.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% in terms of their endowments. 11:57.433 --> 11:59.133 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - What about nuclear? 11:59.133 --> 12:01.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - If you look at a country like Niger, 12:01.033 --> 12:03.466 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% they have huge abundance of uranium, 12:03.466 --> 12:05.000 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% which we need for nuclear. 12:05.000 --> 12:07.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% In fact, Niger uranium is enough to power 12:07.500 --> 12:09.066 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% the entire West Africa. 12:09.066 --> 12:10.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Okay, but it has not been exploited. 12:10.900 --> 12:13.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Rather, we see countries like France, 12:13.166 --> 12:16.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% taking it to France to generate electricity there. 12:16.066 --> 12:17.900 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% However, the challenge with nuclear 12:17.900 --> 12:21.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is that the lead time is actually long. 12:21.066 --> 12:25.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And even though we know that the cost per kilowatt is lower, 12:25.200 --> 12:27.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Africa don't have that kind of money at the moment. 12:27.733 --> 12:28.800 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 12:28.800 --> 12:30.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So that is why people are looking into things 12:30.266 --> 12:32.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% like the small modular reactors today, 12:32.500 --> 12:35.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% looking into things like even micro reactors 12:35.500 --> 12:37.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that we are expecting in the next decade-- 12:37.800 --> 12:39.066 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Right. - To come on board, yeah. 12:39.066 --> 12:40.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, it's interesting. 12:40.133 --> 12:43.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% It's almost like a distributed source in some ways. 12:43.633 --> 12:44.800 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 12:44.800 --> 12:46.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Instead of having to have the big power grids built. 12:46.266 --> 12:47.166 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% [Michael] Exactly. 12:47.166 --> 12:49.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - We can put them where they're needed. 12:49.466 --> 12:51.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So for me, I believe that if we continue 12:51.333 --> 12:52.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% with the trajectory that we are going, 12:52.700 --> 12:55.000 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% as well as support from abroad, 12:55.000 --> 12:57.066 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% nuclear will be one of the key ways 12:57.066 --> 12:58.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to address Africa's energy challenge. 12:58.800 --> 12:59.833 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 12:59.833 --> 13:04.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You're both describing a diverse portfolio. 13:04.333 --> 13:06.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Some might listen to that and say, 13:06.166 --> 13:09.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% well yeah, but 600 million people coming out of poverty 13:09.733 --> 13:12.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and starting to use fossil fuels partly, 13:12.900 --> 13:14.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% how many CO2 emissions, 13:14.166 --> 13:15.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what percentage of CO2 emissions 13:15.533 --> 13:17.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is Africa responsible for today? 13:17.766 --> 13:21.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I think Africa now it's about four percent 13:21.066 --> 13:22.833 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% of global emissions. 13:22.833 --> 13:23.733 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - The whole continent? 13:23.733 --> 13:25.366 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - The whole continent. 13:25.366 --> 13:29.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Emissions will start to rise as power consumption increases, 13:29.100 --> 13:30.700 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% but it will not rise that much. 13:30.700 --> 13:31.766 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Yeah. 13:31.766 --> 13:33.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - So I don't think there's anything to fear here. 13:33.266 --> 13:34.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I think there's a lot of scaremongering 13:34.933 --> 13:39.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% around poorer countries becoming richer and emitting more. 13:39.400 --> 13:41.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I really don't see the need to fear that. 13:41.866 --> 13:42.866 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 13:42.866 --> 13:44.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Firstly, I want to even dispel the narrative 13:44.933 --> 13:45.966 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that we should stop saying, 13:45.966 --> 13:48.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% "If Africa developed the way we developed." 13:48.000 --> 13:49.300 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Because it's not even existing. 13:49.300 --> 13:50.733 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Africa is not developing that way. 13:50.733 --> 13:52.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So we should throw away that question. 13:52.600 --> 13:56.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% In fact, about 22 countries in Africa outta the 54, 13:56.833 --> 13:59.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% their main source of energy is renewables. 13:59.300 --> 14:00.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Solar, wind, hydro? 14:00.933 --> 14:02.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Mainly hydro. 14:02.566 --> 14:04.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Then let us look at outlook, 14:04.200 --> 14:06.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the numbers into the future, right? 14:06.166 --> 14:11.333 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Nigeria will be emitting about 0.5 tons per person by 2050. 14:11.333 --> 14:13.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% If we look at the U.S. emission today, 14:13.000 --> 14:16.833 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% it's about 14 tons per capita, metric tons per capita, okay? 14:16.833 --> 14:21.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So it's about 28 times more than what Africa is emitting. 14:21.500 --> 14:25.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So my question is the 96% of people who are emitting, 14:25.633 --> 14:27.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that's where emphasis should be on. 14:27.666 --> 14:29.033 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Right. - And not Africa. 14:29.033 --> 14:30.400 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Yeah, excellent. 14:30.400 --> 14:33.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% You've both mentioned different energies. 14:33.033 --> 14:34.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I don't think I've heard either one of you 14:34.466 --> 14:36.700 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% say the word coal, 14:36.700 --> 14:40.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but you've said natural gas a lot. 14:40.233 --> 14:41.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - You know, most African governments 14:41.866 --> 14:45.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% do not want to go down the path of investing in coal. 14:45.566 --> 14:46.600 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 14:46.600 --> 14:49.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - The issue of coal is South Africa, 14:49.833 --> 14:52.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% which has substantial coal reserves. 14:52.966 --> 14:56.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% South Africa is in process of transitioning out of coal. 14:56.600 --> 14:59.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It's a difficult, long process, but they are doing it, 14:59.100 --> 15:01.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and they are receiving some support for it. 15:01.433 --> 15:03.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% On developing the natural gas reserves, 15:03.600 --> 15:07.000 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% this is, you know, in my view, very much a transition fuel. 15:07.000 --> 15:08.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:08.133 --> 15:10.366 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% - But one that's very critical at this point in time. 15:10.366 --> 15:11.333 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:11.333 --> 15:13.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - If we can come up with low-cost, you know, 15:13.833 --> 15:17.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% scalable solutions for storage of renewables, 15:17.333 --> 15:19.333 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% we'll see more substitutes. 15:19.333 --> 15:20.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:20.466 --> 15:23.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - If we can make greener sources of fertilizer cheaper, 15:23.566 --> 15:27.733 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and, you know, we're able to manufacture those at scale, 15:27.733 --> 15:31.500 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% we can substitute out of using natural gas for fertilizer. 15:31.500 --> 15:32.500 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Yeah. 15:32.500 --> 15:34.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - But until we have those technologies, 15:34.733 --> 15:38.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% we cannot tell Africans that they cannot use fertilizer. 15:38.233 --> 15:39.300 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 15:39.300 --> 15:41.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Because it's, you know, it's too high emitting. 15:41.233 --> 15:44.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I find that very immoral. 15:44.000 --> 15:47.900 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - Let's just kinda think about 15:47.900 --> 15:50.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the funding organizations again. 15:50.300 --> 15:52.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% What do they do currently, 15:52.266 --> 15:57.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what are the results of those investments? 15:57.666 --> 16:01.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - So there's a whole range of multilateral development banks 16:01.300 --> 16:02.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% headed by the World Bank, 16:02.533 --> 16:05.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% which is the largest provider of financing 16:05.800 --> 16:07.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to developing countries. 16:07.766 --> 16:10.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% You know, because of this emphasis 16:10.533 --> 16:13.033 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% on tackling climate change, 16:13.033 --> 16:16.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% there has been a lot of pressure on these institutions 16:16.366 --> 16:20.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to not finance any type of fossil fuels. 16:20.266 --> 16:21.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, it has meant, I think, 16:21.733 --> 16:23.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% for countries trying to build out these resources, 16:23.933 --> 16:26.433 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% it has meant significant limits on 16:26.433 --> 16:29.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% what these institutions are willing to provide. 16:29.333 --> 16:30.333 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. 16:30.333 --> 16:31.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - I think firstly we need to understand 16:31.800 --> 16:34.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that Africa have this image out there 16:34.533 --> 16:37.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that it is a risky place to invest in. 16:37.533 --> 16:39.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So you see that even the development finance 16:39.800 --> 16:41.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that we can be able to access 16:41.200 --> 16:43.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to access it at very high interest rates. 16:43.733 --> 16:45.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% If you look at Ghana, for instance, 16:45.200 --> 16:48.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Ghana have about 80% debt-to-GDP ratio, 16:48.566 --> 16:53.400 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but Ghana will be accessing loans at about 10%, 12%, right? 16:53.400 --> 16:54.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Where if you look at a country like Greece, 16:54.966 --> 16:57.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Greece, they have about 200 debt-to-GDP ratio. 16:57.633 --> 16:59.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Greece has the access at two, three percent. 16:59.833 --> 17:03.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So really what, who is, where is the risk, you know? 17:03.233 --> 17:06.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So they should come down to Africa and see what's going on. 17:06.200 --> 17:07.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's a profitable place. 17:07.966 --> 17:11.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Then secondly, if you say that major goal 17:11.166 --> 17:13.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is climate mitigation, right? 17:13.600 --> 17:16.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Why not also fund gas with CCS? 17:16.066 --> 17:17.033 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. 17:17.033 --> 17:18.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Africa can do, we have projects ongoing now 17:18.666 --> 17:22.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% here to retrofit even the existing gas plants with CCS. 17:22.233 --> 17:24.933 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Our goal is not, we just want to emit, we want to use gas. 17:24.933 --> 17:27.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% No, Africans are also concerned about climate change. 17:27.966 --> 17:29.500 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% We are the ones impacted the most. 17:29.500 --> 17:31.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So we're also trying to clear our own path, right? 17:31.866 --> 17:34.900 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% If we can be able to internally mobilize finance, right, 17:34.900 --> 17:36.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% both from public, private sector 17:36.433 --> 17:38.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and even the African development bank. 17:38.600 --> 17:40.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% We won't have it all, definitely. 17:40.033 --> 17:42.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The investment needs are really, really high. 17:42.466 --> 17:44.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But at least that will give us some leverage 17:44.600 --> 17:47.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% to be able to make investments in some technologies 17:47.133 --> 17:49.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that are of our own choice, 17:49.366 --> 17:51.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we need to understand the electricities 17:51.266 --> 17:55.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% both generation, transmission, distribution, and end use. 17:55.433 --> 17:56.600 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. 17:56.600 --> 17:58.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - So, so much of focus has been around the supply side. 17:58.933 --> 18:01.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% We don't look at what is going on in the other areas, right? 18:01.766 --> 18:05.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So that undermines Africa's energy needs. 18:05.100 --> 18:07.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% When we undermine that, it also limits 18:07.133 --> 18:09.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the kind of investments that goes into the sector. 18:09.700 --> 18:10.900 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Yes, yeah. 18:10.900 --> 18:12.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% What's the state of electricity distribution 18:12.566 --> 18:16.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% companies in Africa, or the discoms, as they're called? 18:16.600 --> 18:19.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Right now, they are highly indebted. 18:19.066 --> 18:21.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If you look at something like the distribution losses 18:21.533 --> 18:23.833 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% in some countries up to 15%. 18:23.833 --> 18:27.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - So for part of that 15% loss is energy theft? 18:27.200 --> 18:28.466 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Energy theft is part of it. 18:28.466 --> 18:30.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% So we have the technical losses as well as the market loss. 18:30.766 --> 18:31.933 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Okay, yeah. 18:31.933 --> 18:35.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So how do we go about addressing the problem? 18:35.833 --> 18:38.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Firstly, that we need to bring them out of that debt. 18:38.200 --> 18:40.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And this can be done in different ways. 18:40.033 --> 18:43.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% You can do maybe debt refinancing, debt restructuring. 18:43.600 --> 18:46.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Then, we talk about electricity being stolen. 18:46.800 --> 18:49.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is people who are poor that steal electricity. 18:49.666 --> 18:53.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - I mean, if you're not energy poor, 18:53.266 --> 18:54.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% you don't have to steal it. 18:54.866 --> 18:56.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Have to steal it, yeah. [laughs] 18:56.866 --> 18:58.533 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - It's pretty logical there. 18:58.533 --> 19:03.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Transportation is being electrified 19:03.066 --> 19:04.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in places in the world. 19:04.333 --> 19:06.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Is there a role for EVs in Africa, 19:06.400 --> 19:07.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and how does that play out? 19:07.766 --> 19:09.966 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - In the transportation sector, 19:09.966 --> 19:12.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the problem is that we don't have good infrastructure, 19:12.200 --> 19:15.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and the system currently is dominated by fossil fuels. 19:15.566 --> 19:18.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You know, more than 99% of the transportation 19:18.000 --> 19:20.600 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% is dominated by diesel and gasoline. 19:20.600 --> 19:23.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% However, recently there is huge growth in electrification 19:23.366 --> 19:25.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% of the transportation sector. 19:25.066 --> 19:26.833 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% So we'll see countries like Nigeria 19:26.833 --> 19:29.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% deploying electric buses. 19:29.100 --> 19:30.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% There is also significant work 19:30.500 --> 19:32.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% going on in places like Kenya. 19:32.333 --> 19:35.866 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% There is huge deployment of electric two-wheelers and so on. 19:35.866 --> 19:37.800 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Then that will also build the basis 19:37.800 --> 19:40.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% for the infrastructure for the four-wheelers. 19:40.133 --> 19:42.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% One of the things we still fight a lot on the continent 19:42.466 --> 19:44.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% is air pollution. - Sure. 19:44.100 --> 19:46.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - So governments are also looking towards EV 19:46.600 --> 19:48.633 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% in the aspect of air pollution. 19:48.633 --> 19:50.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So it's not driven just by decarbonization, 19:50.900 --> 19:54.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% but more around socioeconomic and technical challenges. 19:54.200 --> 19:57.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We often hear about the negative impacts of energy 19:57.300 --> 19:59.133 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% on the environment. 19:59.133 --> 20:02.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% There are positive impacts of energy on the environment too. 20:02.833 --> 20:04.800 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% What stands in the way, then, of, 20:04.800 --> 20:06.666 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% is it purely understanding, 20:06.666 --> 20:08.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% or are there other forces at play here on, 20:08.866 --> 20:11.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% particularly as we're talking about electricity? 20:11.800 --> 20:13.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - We take electricity for granted. 20:13.633 --> 20:16.166 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% We take 24/7 internet for granted. 20:16.166 --> 20:18.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're able to charge our phones whenever we want. 20:18.666 --> 20:21.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I think it's very hard in that context 20:21.333 --> 20:25.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to then get people to think about what it's like 20:25.100 --> 20:28.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to have six or seven hours a day without power. 20:28.066 --> 20:30.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We need to work harder to convince people, I think, 20:30.433 --> 20:32.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that energy access is a real problem, 20:32.733 --> 20:34.666 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that it's a devastating problem 20:34.666 --> 20:36.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% when you don't have enough energy 20:36.400 --> 20:38.133 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% in hospitals or in schools, 20:38.133 --> 20:42.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and that we need to be thinking about that simultaneously 20:42.133 --> 20:43.833 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% as we address climate change. 20:43.833 --> 20:45.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - What do you think on this, Michael? 20:45.900 --> 20:50.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - I think we focus so much on mitigation and adaptation. 20:50.233 --> 20:51.166 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 20:51.166 --> 20:53.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So when we're talking of climate change, 20:53.066 --> 20:56.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% for the rich countries, you have enough energy to adapt, 20:56.333 --> 20:58.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but Africa don't have that energy. 20:58.200 --> 20:59.300 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% [Scott] That's right. 20:59.300 --> 21:01.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Really, we need to understand the basics properly 21:01.333 --> 21:03.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and not just carry the way by the apocalyptic narrative 21:03.833 --> 21:06.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that Africa might, you know, blow up our climate plans. 21:06.400 --> 21:07.533 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 21:07.533 --> 21:11.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% As we kinda recap here, energy access and affordability, 21:11.766 --> 21:16.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just your thoughts on the key steps needed to do that. 21:16.000 --> 21:18.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - We need Western partners to be thoughtful 21:18.900 --> 21:21.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% in the way they address both energy access 21:21.866 --> 21:23.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% and climate change. 21:23.833 --> 21:27.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% We need to encourage whatever efforts are happening, 21:27.466 --> 21:29.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% you know, around the world to provide energy access, 21:29.966 --> 21:32.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% understanding kind of what the goals 21:32.233 --> 21:35.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what the constraints are facing each country, 21:35.600 --> 21:39.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and really speak to what people want in these countries 21:39.033 --> 21:41.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% rather than trying to impose our priorities. 21:41.666 --> 21:46.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I don't see Africa's development goals as negotiable. 21:46.000 --> 21:47.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Those are not negotiable. 21:47.500 --> 21:49.133 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Yeah, I love that. 21:49.133 --> 21:51.000 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Your thoughts on that, Michael? 21:51.000 --> 21:54.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So I think we need to start action immediately. 21:54.600 --> 21:55.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% That is what is important, 21:55.700 --> 21:58.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and forget about all these side distractions 21:58.233 --> 21:59.666 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that are disturbing us. 21:59.666 --> 22:01.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We already have policy frameworks on ground 22:01.766 --> 22:02.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% in these countries. 22:02.833 --> 22:05.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What we need to do is to tighten up those policies 22:05.366 --> 22:07.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and back them with an act of parliament 22:07.566 --> 22:10.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% to encourage investors to come into the country. 22:10.200 --> 22:12.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But rather I prefer we do it effectively. 22:12.500 --> 22:13.700 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yes. 22:13.700 --> 22:15.433 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Than doing it myopically the way we are doing it today. 22:15.433 --> 22:17.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That has not led us to anywhere. 22:17.000 --> 22:18.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 22:18.000 --> 22:20.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And we have time, you feel, 22:20.400 --> 22:23.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to move through this in a sensible way? 22:23.566 --> 22:24.800 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% - The Western countries timelines 22:24.800 --> 22:27.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% shouldn't be the timelines for Africa. 22:27.466 --> 22:30.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% You can achieve net zero here by 2050. 22:30.266 --> 22:33.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Africa can achieve by 2080 or 2070. 22:33.166 --> 22:36.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So don't just constrain Africa to your 2050. 22:36.500 --> 22:40.033 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And let us also remember that climate is a global thing. 22:40.033 --> 22:42.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% It's not Africa or America's problem. 22:42.600 --> 22:45.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So we need collective action, shared goal, 22:45.533 --> 22:47.466 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% but different responsibilities 22:47.466 --> 22:49.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% towards achieving that shared goal. 22:49.566 --> 22:50.800 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 22:50.800 --> 22:53.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% One world, one atmosphere. 22:53.700 --> 22:55.100 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Any final thoughts? 22:55.100 --> 22:56.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Anything we've missed? 22:56.800 --> 22:58.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - I mean, you know, as I said, 22:58.133 --> 23:01.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I do feel that these development priorities 23:01.266 --> 23:05.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are very, very important, and we need to remember that, 23:05.000 --> 23:08.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% you know, having a prosperous Africa is good for everyone. 23:08.633 --> 23:10.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It's good for the rich countries as well. 23:10.133 --> 23:11.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% There's more trading opportunities. 23:11.600 --> 23:13.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% There's, you know, more opportunities 23:13.266 --> 23:15.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to exchange information and to learn from each other. 23:15.633 --> 23:17.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% So it's important, I think, 23:17.533 --> 23:19.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to keep those sort of global goals in mind 23:19.666 --> 23:21.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and not get kind of sidetracked 23:21.500 --> 23:24.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by a single focus on any one particular problem. 23:24.733 --> 23:25.866 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 23:25.866 --> 23:27.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Final thoughts, Michael? 23:27.033 --> 23:29.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Something we've missed that you'd like to communicate? 23:29.100 --> 23:32.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I think my final thoughts are three. 23:32.000 --> 23:35.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Firstly is that we need to stop looking at Africa 23:35.166 --> 23:38.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% as this one big village with all these people in it. 23:38.433 --> 23:41.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are 54 countries in Africa that are different. 23:41.766 --> 23:44.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So therefore, solutions that we are tailoring for the region 23:44.966 --> 23:47.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% need to be unique for all these countries. 23:47.633 --> 23:49.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Then secondly, when it comes to issues 23:49.500 --> 23:51.166 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% relating to energy access, 23:51.166 --> 23:55.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% we need to put greater emphasis on productive use of energy. 23:55.133 --> 23:58.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Understanding that energy is a means to an end 23:58.033 --> 23:59.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and not an end in itself. 23:59.966 --> 24:02.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And then lastly is on the issue of balancing 24:02.466 --> 24:06.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% climate and developmental energy goals in Africa. 24:06.533 --> 24:09.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We need to be realistic and understand 24:09.200 --> 24:10.800 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that when the chips are down, 24:10.800 --> 24:13.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% energy security takes a priority. 24:13.200 --> 24:15.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And when I'm talking of energy security, in this context, 24:15.233 --> 24:17.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I'm talking about continuous supply 24:17.133 --> 24:19.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of affordable and reliable energy. 24:19.400 --> 24:21.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And how are these policies going to be done? 24:21.766 --> 24:25.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I would describe it as multi-objective policies. 24:25.433 --> 24:28.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Affordability, reliability, and sustainability. 24:28.700 --> 24:31.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So when we design policies in this multi-objective, 24:31.333 --> 24:34.033 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% we are balancing these things that are all of important. 24:34.033 --> 24:35.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We can be able to achieve 24:35.300 --> 24:38.500 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% these development and climate goals on the continent 24:38.500 --> 24:40.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% instead of just focusing on one. 24:40.200 --> 24:41.533 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Right. - That is not leading us 24:41.533 --> 24:42.766 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to anywhere that is meaningful. 24:42.766 --> 24:44.500 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Yeah. So well said. 24:44.500 --> 24:46.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Scott Tinker with a fascinating conversation 24:46.633 --> 24:48.666 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% about energy in Africa. 24:48.666 --> 24:50.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is "Energy Switch." 24:50.866 --> 24:52.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% African nations are working 24:52.233 --> 24:54.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to bring electricity to their people. 24:54.733 --> 24:57.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% For this, many are looking to hydro, 24:57.066 --> 24:59.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% starting to grow solar, wind, and geothermal, 24:59.900 --> 25:02.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and struggling to expand electricity transmission 25:02.533 --> 25:04.833 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and distribution networks. 25:04.833 --> 25:07.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But Africa could have 600 trillion cubic feet 25:07.533 --> 25:10.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% of natural gas resources, or more. 25:10.400 --> 25:12.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% That gas could provide power generation 25:12.766 --> 25:15.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to balance solar and wind and grow industry. 25:15.866 --> 25:18.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Gas could also produce fertilizer domestically, 25:18.700 --> 25:22.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% making agriculture more productive and affordable. 25:22.133 --> 25:23.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Our guests believe that investors 25:23.900 --> 25:26.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and international development banks and foundations, 25:26.600 --> 25:28.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% mostly from wealthy nations, 25:28.400 --> 25:30.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% should prioritize Africa's energy needs 25:30.900 --> 25:32.400 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% over climate targets, 25:32.400 --> 25:35.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% since a diverse energy portfolio in Africa 25:35.033 --> 25:37.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% would add little to global emissions. 25:37.533 --> 25:41.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% This could include broader funding for 25:41.166 --> 25:44.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% with demands for transparency in regulation and contracts 25:44.400 --> 25:46.100 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% to reduce corruption. 25:46.100 --> 25:47.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This approach could help 25:47.233 --> 25:49.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% raise income levels for all Africans 25:49.466 --> 25:51.800 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% and increase environmental investment. 25:54.233 --> 26:02.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:02.833 --> 26:11.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:11.833 --> 26:19.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:20.733 --> 26:22.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 26:22.066 --> 26:25.200 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 26:25.200 --> 26:27.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% The University of Texas at Austin, 26:27.700 --> 26:30.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% leading research in energy and the environment 26:30.133 --> 26:32.033 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 26:32.033 --> 26:35.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world.