1 00:00:00,466 --> 00:00:02,333 [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 2 00:00:02,333 --> 00:00:03,833 we'll look at puzzling conflicts 3 00:00:03,833 --> 00:00:06,066 in the energy and climate world. 4 00:00:06,066 --> 00:00:08,300 - Denying climate change is a problem, 5 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:10,133 but blaming everything on climate change 6 00:00:10,133 --> 00:00:11,400 is also a problem, 7 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,966 and figuring out how do we keep our scientific institutions 8 00:00:14,966 --> 00:00:17,333 robust and secure in this political environment 9 00:00:17,333 --> 00:00:18,466 is gonna be really important. 10 00:00:18,466 --> 00:00:20,733 - We are facing an uncertain future 11 00:00:20,733 --> 00:00:24,200 so we need to embed flexibility in that policy. 12 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,100 Climate change, energy transition 13 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:27,866 is an international issue 14 00:00:27,866 --> 00:00:29,700 and we are in a situation where actually, 15 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:32,033 international cooperation is breaking down. 16 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,233 [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 17 00:00:34,233 --> 00:00:36,733 energy and climate paradoxes. 18 00:00:39,133 --> 00:00:40,500 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 19 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,600 was provided in part by 20 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,133 The University of Texas at Austin, 21 00:00:46,133 --> 00:00:48,466 leading research in energy and the environment 22 00:00:48,466 --> 00:00:50,466 for a better tomorrow. 23 00:00:50,466 --> 00:00:53,166 What starts here changes the world. 24 00:00:55,366 --> 00:00:56,600 [upbeat music] 25 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:57,833 - I'm Scott Tinker, 26 00:00:57,833 --> 00:00:59,833 and I'm an energy scientist. 27 00:00:59,833 --> 00:01:01,600 I work in the field, 28 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,733 lead research, 29 00:01:02,733 --> 00:01:04,100 speak around the world, 30 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:05,533 write articles, 31 00:01:05,533 --> 00:01:08,133 and make films about energy. 32 00:01:08,133 --> 00:01:10,833 This show brings together leading experts 33 00:01:10,833 --> 00:01:13,666 on vital topics in energy and climate. 34 00:01:14,133 --> 00:01:15,933 They may have different perspectives, 35 00:01:15,933 --> 00:01:18,966 but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 36 00:01:18,966 --> 00:01:22,300 and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 37 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,566 Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 38 00:01:26,966 --> 00:01:30,000 There are many paradoxes in climate and energy. 39 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,100 For instance, people want energy to drive their cars 40 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:34,533 and heat their homes, 41 00:01:34,533 --> 00:01:37,066 but don't want any new power lines or pipelines 42 00:01:37,066 --> 00:01:38,633 to bring it to them. 43 00:01:38,633 --> 00:01:41,533 Nuclear is a zero-carbon energy source, 44 00:01:41,533 --> 00:01:44,366 yet many climate advocates oppose it. 45 00:01:44,366 --> 00:01:47,200 Some U.S. states impose EV mandates, 46 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,966 but prohibit mining for battery metals. 47 00:01:49,966 --> 00:01:52,366 We'll examine these and other paradoxes 48 00:01:52,366 --> 00:01:55,933 with two experts in economics, energy, and climate policy. 49 00:01:57,066 --> 00:02:00,066 Dario Liguti is the director of sustainable energy 50 00:02:00,066 --> 00:02:02,566 for the U.N. Economic Commission for Europe, 51 00:02:02,566 --> 00:02:04,233 and a former managing director 52 00:02:04,233 --> 00:02:06,600 and global head of finance for GE Capital. 53 00:02:07,366 --> 00:02:10,433 Roger Pielke Jr. Is a professor of environmental science 54 00:02:10,433 --> 00:02:12,233 at the University of Colorado, 55 00:02:12,233 --> 00:02:14,866 a former senior fellow at the Breakthrough Institute, 56 00:02:14,866 --> 00:02:17,633 and author of three books on climate policy. 57 00:02:19,333 --> 00:02:21,966 Next up, energy and climate paradoxes 58 00:02:21,966 --> 00:02:23,833 and how we might resolve them. 59 00:02:24,766 --> 00:02:26,433 All right, welcome. 60 00:02:27,166 --> 00:02:30,200 Energy and climate paradoxes. 61 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,600 They're everywhere in the energy world. 62 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,033 Look forward to chatting about some of 'em. 63 00:02:35,033 --> 00:02:39,533 Poor countries around the world, emerging economies, 64 00:02:39,533 --> 00:02:43,966 developing economies who don't have great energy security. 65 00:02:43,966 --> 00:02:45,533 It comes and goes to them. 66 00:02:45,533 --> 00:02:47,900 They want to expand their energy use. 67 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:49,800 The wealthy countries wanna decarbonize, 68 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,500 we're sometimes saying to them, you should decarbonize too. 69 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:54,000 Is this a paradox? 70 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,700 - Well, you have to understand that first and foremost, 71 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:58,333 for them, energy is development. 72 00:02:58,333 --> 00:03:00,000 It's not about energy transition 73 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,733 because they're not transitioning. 74 00:03:01,733 --> 00:03:03,366 - From poverty to something else. 75 00:03:03,366 --> 00:03:04,366 - Exactly. 76 00:03:04,366 --> 00:03:06,666 So they look at energy with two different hats. 77 00:03:06,666 --> 00:03:10,166 They're looking at the decentralized energy production, 78 00:03:10,166 --> 00:03:12,833 you know, solar, mostly renewable energy in rural areas, 79 00:03:12,833 --> 00:03:16,566 for example, to provide a minimum of energy services 80 00:03:16,566 --> 00:03:17,866 to a population. 81 00:03:17,866 --> 00:03:18,933 - Just getting started. 82 00:03:18,933 --> 00:03:20,566 - And then you look, they're looking at developing 83 00:03:20,566 --> 00:03:22,466 their own industry, of course, 84 00:03:22,466 --> 00:03:23,600 and there they're looking of course 85 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,566 at, you know, coal and gas. 86 00:03:25,566 --> 00:03:28,466 You cannot say you just only develop renewable energies 87 00:03:28,466 --> 00:03:30,000 because that's not enough. 88 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,566 They need the whole solution, the whole portfolio 89 00:03:33,566 --> 00:03:36,633 of technologies to develop, and that portfolio of technology 90 00:03:36,633 --> 00:03:39,666 needs to be adapted to their individual needs. 91 00:03:39,666 --> 00:03:40,866 - It's complicated. 92 00:03:40,866 --> 00:03:44,233 - So it's a complicated equation to pull it through, 93 00:03:44,233 --> 00:03:47,133 and it's difficult to say you should be doing that. 94 00:03:47,133 --> 00:03:48,133 Actually not. 95 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:50,533 We should be helping them in doing the right thing 96 00:03:50,533 --> 00:03:52,333 by providing technology. 97 00:03:52,333 --> 00:03:55,533 One thing it's which here instead in the emerging market 98 00:03:55,533 --> 00:03:57,366 is particularly true, is investment. 99 00:03:57,366 --> 00:04:01,100 It's capital, and that's where I believe we, 100 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:03,100 the western world, should help them 101 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:05,500 is by providing technology and investment 102 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:07,266 because we are rich of both. 103 00:04:07,266 --> 00:04:08,266 - That's right. 104 00:04:08,266 --> 00:04:09,700 Are the policies that we're trying to implement 105 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,566 somehow hindering this developing growth, Roger, 106 00:04:12,566 --> 00:04:13,533 or how do you see that? 107 00:04:13,533 --> 00:04:15,566 - Yeah, I mean, here's another paradox. 108 00:04:15,566 --> 00:04:17,300 A lot, and I see a lot of this, 109 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:18,766 there's a lot of well-meaning folks 110 00:04:18,766 --> 00:04:23,900 who are intent upon improving household energy access, 111 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:26,633 electrification in very poor places. 112 00:04:26,633 --> 00:04:28,233 And on one level, that's great, 113 00:04:28,233 --> 00:04:31,333 it raises standards of living, but on the other hand, 114 00:04:31,333 --> 00:04:33,166 we're keeping people in poverty, 115 00:04:33,166 --> 00:04:37,066 but at a little bit more tolerable level of poverty, 116 00:04:37,066 --> 00:04:39,400 and we have to realize that everyone around the world 117 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,966 is striving for an economy 118 00:04:41,966 --> 00:04:44,066 with a 21st century infrastructure. 119 00:04:44,066 --> 00:04:46,100 From the roads in front of you, to stores, 120 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:49,466 to factories, to airplanes, and African countries, 121 00:04:49,466 --> 00:04:53,566 as you say, have noted this, again, 122 00:04:53,566 --> 00:04:55,600 a paradox that many of those countries 123 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,600 are rich in fossil fuel resources, 124 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,966 but cannot ask the capital to develop them, 125 00:05:01,966 --> 00:05:04,500 the institutions that are needed to govern them, 126 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:06,633 and actually they face opposition, 127 00:05:06,633 --> 00:05:10,533 and this does have the pernicious effect of countries 128 00:05:10,533 --> 00:05:13,500 that have contributed nothing to the climate problem, 129 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:15,866 and even if they were to develop their fossil fuels, 130 00:05:15,866 --> 00:05:18,633 would contribute, you know, marginally a little more 131 00:05:18,633 --> 00:05:22,500 are effectively being kept out of his path to development, 132 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:25,133 which the rich parts of the world already took advantage of. 133 00:05:25,133 --> 00:05:26,566 - Right, yeah. 134 00:05:26,566 --> 00:05:29,900 Nuclear, I mean, it's zero-carbon source 135 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:31,666 once it's built, 136 00:05:31,666 --> 00:05:35,266 reliable, pretty affordable once it's built. 137 00:05:35,266 --> 00:05:36,933 A lot of climate advocates, 138 00:05:36,933 --> 00:05:39,633 or those who are most concerned about climate, 139 00:05:39,633 --> 00:05:41,466 many of 'em are opposed to nuclear. 140 00:05:41,466 --> 00:05:42,666 What's the thinking here? 141 00:05:42,666 --> 00:05:45,233 - I think, well, the discussion around nuclear 142 00:05:45,233 --> 00:05:46,933 is really about safety. 143 00:05:46,933 --> 00:05:47,966 - Right. 144 00:05:47,966 --> 00:05:50,600 - And in the nuclear industry, because of this, 145 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,966 this continued attention on safety 146 00:05:52,966 --> 00:05:55,400 has actually the highest safety standards 147 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,033 in the energy world. 148 00:05:57,033 --> 00:05:59,433 - Yeah, how do we counter that fear? 149 00:05:59,433 --> 00:06:01,633 - How do we-- - It's education. 150 00:06:01,633 --> 00:06:04,200 I think it's education, it's talking openly about that, 151 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,966 and, you know, it's talking about data, 152 00:06:05,966 --> 00:06:08,233 it's talking with numbers, 153 00:06:08,233 --> 00:06:11,866 and is today, it's a political decision. 154 00:06:11,866 --> 00:06:14,400 It's not really an economic or technological decision 155 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:15,533 because certain countries 156 00:06:15,533 --> 00:06:17,800 are perfectly fine with nuclear, take France. 157 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,866 Other countries are totally against nuclear, take Germany, 158 00:06:20,866 --> 00:06:22,766 and they're both, you know, close to each other. 159 00:06:22,766 --> 00:06:25,300 What's the difference between France and Germany? 160 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:26,800 It's a political issue. 161 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:27,666 [Scott] Language. 162 00:06:27,666 --> 00:06:29,800 - Well, yes. 163 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,600 It's true, 164 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:32,900 and as well, cuisine. 165 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:33,933 - That's right. 166 00:06:33,933 --> 00:06:35,300 - But one of the issues around nuclear, I think, 167 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:37,166 and that it scares a lot of people, 168 00:06:37,166 --> 00:06:39,166 scares or concerns a lot of people, 169 00:06:39,166 --> 00:06:42,433 is the budget and the time to build 170 00:06:42,433 --> 00:06:45,133 the nuclear power plants because typically, 171 00:06:45,133 --> 00:06:49,433 they've been over budget, and then by many years, delayed. 172 00:06:49,433 --> 00:06:52,933 So I think, you know, the small modular reactors 173 00:06:52,933 --> 00:06:56,233 probably could help in assuaging 174 00:06:56,233 --> 00:06:59,766 that kind of resistance from the population 175 00:06:59,766 --> 00:07:02,366 because they are much smaller scale, 176 00:07:02,366 --> 00:07:05,900 they are more easily deployable, they cost less. 177 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:08,966 It's on the technology which needs to be proven. 178 00:07:08,966 --> 00:07:10,066 [Scott] Right. 179 00:07:10,066 --> 00:07:12,266 - I think we also have to remember that worldwide, 180 00:07:12,266 --> 00:07:15,833 there's something like 420 nuclear power plants. 181 00:07:15,833 --> 00:07:17,033 That's not very many. 182 00:07:17,666 --> 00:07:20,866 The United Arab Emirates has committed to building 183 00:07:20,866 --> 00:07:22,266 a series of nuclear power plants, 184 00:07:22,266 --> 00:07:26,233 which are coming in at successively lower costs. 185 00:07:26,233 --> 00:07:28,733 So imagine a world where we committed to building 186 00:07:28,733 --> 00:07:30,600 2,000 nuclear power plants. 187 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,933 If it's like other technologies like solar, like wind, 188 00:07:32,933 --> 00:07:35,333 we would fully expect that if we developed 189 00:07:35,333 --> 00:07:37,700 a sizable industry, not these one-offs, 190 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:39,700 that costs may come down. 191 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:41,133 Even so, so you take 192 00:07:41,133 --> 00:07:43,300 the Vogel nuclear power plant in Georgia, 193 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:45,433 which has recently come online. 194 00:07:45,433 --> 00:07:48,266 First nuclear power plant in the United States in decades. 195 00:07:48,266 --> 00:07:49,633 It was over budget, 196 00:07:49,633 --> 00:07:50,600 billions of dollars, 197 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,300 there was court cases fought over it, 198 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:54,533 a lot of money spent in trying to oppose it, 199 00:07:54,533 --> 00:07:55,866 even with all those expenses 200 00:07:55,866 --> 00:07:58,900 and all those difficulties, there is cost certainty 201 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:02,100 for Georgia residents to 2080 and beyond. 202 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:03,433 And, you know, the last thing I'll say 203 00:08:03,433 --> 00:08:06,566 is if climate change is indeed, you know, 204 00:08:06,566 --> 00:08:09,966 the challenge of our generation, the challenge of our era, 205 00:08:09,966 --> 00:08:12,200 maybe it's okay we pay a little bit more for nuclear 206 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,633 to ensure that we don't have these unpredictable, 207 00:08:15,633 --> 00:08:18,366 unexpected impacts of climate change down the road. 208 00:08:18,366 --> 00:08:20,600 - Right, you know, you said the Georgian residents 209 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,633 will be assured of a price stability to 2080, right? 210 00:08:25,633 --> 00:08:27,766 But we have seen the impact of climate change 211 00:08:27,766 --> 00:08:31,466 last year on power plants, nuclear power plants in France 212 00:08:31,466 --> 00:08:34,833 when suddenly you have issues lack of water availability 213 00:08:34,833 --> 00:08:36,600 for cooling down power plants, 214 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,666 and lack of water for hydropower plants, 215 00:08:39,666 --> 00:08:41,533 and I think that is an issue that, you know, 216 00:08:41,533 --> 00:08:44,000 when planning and looking at the different technologies, 217 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,166 one needs really to take into consideration 218 00:08:46,166 --> 00:08:47,633 because you might find yourself 219 00:08:47,633 --> 00:08:50,400 with the infrastructure that is not performing 220 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:51,933 as they were supposed to. 221 00:08:51,933 --> 00:08:53,700 And therefore, and I think, you know, 222 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,466 diversification is the name of the game 223 00:08:56,466 --> 00:08:58,533 because you don't know, we're walking 224 00:08:58,533 --> 00:09:01,400 into an era of uncertainty. 225 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,566 And so, if you deploy a wide variety of technologies 226 00:09:04,566 --> 00:09:06,500 each one resilient to a different aspect 227 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:09,100 in climate change, you can play that game. 228 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:10,566 [Scott] Yeah, you gotta have optionality. 229 00:09:10,566 --> 00:09:12,333 [Dario] You gotta have optionality. 230 00:09:12,333 --> 00:09:13,466 - Listening to Dario's comments, 231 00:09:13,466 --> 00:09:15,133 it made me think, well, this is why natural gas 232 00:09:15,133 --> 00:09:16,833 is gonna be around for a long time 233 00:09:16,833 --> 00:09:20,933 because natural gas provides a firm backstop 234 00:09:20,933 --> 00:09:22,633 that is less weather dependent, 235 00:09:22,633 --> 00:09:25,000 and can be started and stopped quickly. 236 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,266 - Interesting. - And the question is, 237 00:09:26,266 --> 00:09:29,266 well then how do we pay for these backup technologies? 238 00:09:29,266 --> 00:09:31,133 How do we overbuild? 239 00:09:31,133 --> 00:09:33,700 And maybe that's a cost of society 240 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:36,833 in a world with more variability 241 00:09:36,833 --> 00:09:38,466 and uncertainty going forward. 242 00:09:38,466 --> 00:09:40,266 But again, this is where wealthy countries 243 00:09:40,266 --> 00:09:43,233 can probably afford that backstop and redundancy, 244 00:09:43,233 --> 00:09:46,133 and, you know, the only way for poor countries 245 00:09:46,133 --> 00:09:47,766 to be able to develop that same level 246 00:09:47,766 --> 00:09:51,033 of redundancy and robustness is to become wealthy countries. 247 00:09:51,033 --> 00:09:53,666 And so how do we create a virtuous cycle 248 00:09:53,666 --> 00:09:55,133 where we're getting wealthy, 249 00:09:55,133 --> 00:09:56,766 we're cleaning up the energy system, 250 00:09:56,766 --> 00:09:58,200 we're creating redundancies 251 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,366 so that the economy continue to go. 252 00:10:00,366 --> 00:10:01,633 That's the challenge. 253 00:10:01,633 --> 00:10:03,366 That's how we beat the paradox. 254 00:10:03,366 --> 00:10:06,300 - So, Canada was burning this summer, you know, 255 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:10,066 a lot of fires and I thought, wow, that's a lot of fires. 256 00:10:10,066 --> 00:10:12,200 And then go to the data and look at it, 257 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,233 acreage burn has actually been coming down 258 00:10:14,233 --> 00:10:15,566 the last 20 years. 259 00:10:15,566 --> 00:10:17,966 I mean, you've studied climate too. 260 00:10:17,966 --> 00:10:20,233 I hear that a lot, extremes, and then I look at data 261 00:10:20,233 --> 00:10:22,733 and I say, well, I don't see the extremes always. 262 00:10:22,733 --> 00:10:25,133 I mean, this seems like a paradox to me too, 263 00:10:25,133 --> 00:10:26,833 the paradox of communication. 264 00:10:26,833 --> 00:10:27,833 - I think it is true 265 00:10:27,833 --> 00:10:30,200 that a lot of the discussion of extremes 266 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,100 departs from the intergovernmental panel 267 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:34,700 on climate change and our consensus understanding. 268 00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:36,533 At the same time, climate change is real, 269 00:10:36,533 --> 00:10:38,400 and it is affecting things like fire, 270 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,433 weather, and heat waves, and so on. 271 00:10:40,433 --> 00:10:42,233 Denying climate change is a problem, 272 00:10:42,233 --> 00:10:44,033 but blaming everything on climate change 273 00:10:44,033 --> 00:10:45,566 is also a problem. [Scott] Right. 274 00:10:45,566 --> 00:10:48,900 - And figuring out how do we keep our scientific institutions 275 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:51,566 robust and secure in this political environment, 276 00:10:51,566 --> 00:10:54,400 especially for professionals who build things 277 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,566 is gonna be really important. 278 00:10:55,566 --> 00:10:59,200 - So EVs, you know, electric vehicles, 279 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,600 they do require mining. 280 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,366 Some states and other countries are mandating them, 281 00:11:03,366 --> 00:11:05,566 yet they won't do the mining. 282 00:11:05,566 --> 00:11:08,166 I guess the irony here, or the paradox to me, 283 00:11:08,166 --> 00:11:11,566 is still, somebody's gotta mine. 284 00:11:11,566 --> 00:11:14,566 China processes today all these metals, 285 00:11:14,566 --> 00:11:16,766 80% of the key metals. 286 00:11:16,766 --> 00:11:18,000 How do you see this? 287 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,400 - Both the Europe and the U.S. 288 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,633 have already taken important policy 289 00:11:21,633 --> 00:11:24,400 and important industrial decisions around that. 290 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,233 I mean, the EU is proposing the EU Raw Materials Act, 291 00:11:28,233 --> 00:11:29,933 which foresees a minimum, 292 00:11:29,933 --> 00:11:32,866 it mandates a minimum of domestic production 293 00:11:32,866 --> 00:11:34,366 of the raw material, 294 00:11:34,366 --> 00:11:37,966 a minimum of domestic processing capacity, 295 00:11:37,966 --> 00:11:40,900 and a minimum of recycling capacity. 296 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:42,166 We actually attach now, 297 00:11:42,166 --> 00:11:45,833 in Europe, to every EV battery, a digital passport. 298 00:11:45,833 --> 00:11:47,633 That digital passport tells you 299 00:11:47,633 --> 00:11:49,466 exactly where the components are coming from, 300 00:11:49,466 --> 00:11:50,733 where is the supply chain, 301 00:11:50,733 --> 00:11:52,133 and how you're gonna dispose them. 302 00:11:52,133 --> 00:11:53,466 - Interesting. - But coming back 303 00:11:53,466 --> 00:11:56,100 to the mining thing that you mentioned, first and foremost, 304 00:11:56,100 --> 00:12:00,566 we need, first of all, to learn where are these reserves. 305 00:12:00,566 --> 00:12:02,733 'Cause I can tell you one thing, and you're a geologist, 306 00:12:02,733 --> 00:12:04,266 you know better than me this, 307 00:12:04,266 --> 00:12:05,566 we haven't been looking for those. 308 00:12:05,566 --> 00:12:06,633 - We haven't studied for a while. 309 00:12:06,633 --> 00:12:07,700 - For a while. 310 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:09,366 We've been looking for all sort of other things, 311 00:12:09,366 --> 00:12:10,700 not for those things. 312 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:15,166 But other thing is we have mining 313 00:12:15,166 --> 00:12:18,133 methodologies and processes, which haven't really changed. 314 00:12:18,133 --> 00:12:19,200 - No, they haven't. 315 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,433 - It's one of the industries 316 00:12:20,433 --> 00:12:22,800 where there's no artificial intelligence 317 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,966 really not yet enough, 318 00:12:24,966 --> 00:12:27,466 you don't have a lot of other concerns around, you know, 319 00:12:27,466 --> 00:12:30,266 how do you diminish, they're starting out mining companies 320 00:12:30,266 --> 00:12:32,766 to take into consideration these aspects. 321 00:12:32,766 --> 00:12:34,900 So certainly, I think there is hope 322 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:37,266 to improve our mining operations 323 00:12:37,266 --> 00:12:39,100 if you can start with modules, you know, 324 00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:41,100 and then minimize that impact. 325 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:43,000 Of course there will be an environmental impact. 326 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,200 Certainly, mining operation you're, you know? 327 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,466 - I've never had anybody say it's really green, but- 328 00:12:48,466 --> 00:12:49,633 [Dario] You can do a lot better. 329 00:12:49,633 --> 00:12:51,800 That's exactly the point. - Interesting. 330 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,633 - And so that will go towards, you know, 331 00:12:54,633 --> 00:12:55,900 some of the concerns of the people 332 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:57,533 that they don't want that in the backyard. 333 00:12:57,533 --> 00:12:58,400 - Yeah. 334 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,000 - You know, there's an acronym BANANA. 335 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,200 Build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone. 336 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:03,466 - Yeah. - And that is 337 00:13:03,466 --> 00:13:05,733 an operating philosophy in many places, 338 00:13:05,733 --> 00:13:07,133 particularly in the United States, 339 00:13:07,133 --> 00:13:10,100 where we want all the benefits of modern energy services 340 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:12,466 and modern energy supplies, but none of the costs, 341 00:13:12,466 --> 00:13:14,233 and certainly not in my backyard. 342 00:13:14,233 --> 00:13:16,433 So again, this is one of those paradoxes. 343 00:13:16,433 --> 00:13:20,333 It's a challenge, and every time I see protests 344 00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:24,266 against any kind of natural resource extraction, 345 00:13:24,266 --> 00:13:27,400 that's not gonna reduce the use of materials. 346 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,766 It means that they're gonna be sourced from somewhere else, 347 00:13:29,766 --> 00:13:31,866 and that means some other economy's gonna benefit, 348 00:13:31,866 --> 00:13:34,600 or we're going to increase our exposure 349 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,166 to, you know, bad actors or pressure. 350 00:13:37,166 --> 00:13:39,333 - And it may not be done as well, 351 00:13:39,333 --> 00:13:40,900 either human rights or environmental. 352 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:42,766 - That's exactly right. - That's exactly right. 353 00:13:42,766 --> 00:13:44,333 - Do we have anything analogous 354 00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:49,833 to this EU Raw Materials Act coming or existing? 355 00:13:49,833 --> 00:13:50,866 Do you know? 356 00:13:50,866 --> 00:13:52,300 - No, I haven't seen anything like that 357 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:54,266 in the United States proposed, 358 00:13:54,266 --> 00:13:55,700 and it is an interesting approach 359 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:59,066 certainly for energy security purposes. 360 00:13:59,066 --> 00:14:01,200 In the United States, a lot of the debates 361 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,000 are more about what should we ban next? 362 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,133 And that seems to me to be 363 00:14:05,133 --> 00:14:07,033 a very positive forward-looking approach 364 00:14:07,033 --> 00:14:09,500 that recognizes that, yeah, 365 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:10,933 we're gonna have to take our medicine. 366 00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:12,700 - We're banning a lot, mining, and pipelines. 367 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:16,066 - And another aspect of that Act, 368 00:14:16,066 --> 00:14:17,866 which I think is interesting is obviously, 369 00:14:17,866 --> 00:14:20,066 Europe is not as rich as the U.S., 370 00:14:20,066 --> 00:14:21,866 and so the EU has signed some of these 371 00:14:21,866 --> 00:14:24,500 strategic partnerships is with Congo, 372 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,400 the Democratic Republic of Congo, with Ukraine, 373 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,166 with Kazakhstan, which are rich 374 00:14:29,166 --> 00:14:31,233 in some of these critical minerals. 375 00:14:31,233 --> 00:14:34,166 And the beauty about that is that the same standards 376 00:14:34,166 --> 00:14:37,166 that you apply in Europe will have to be applied 377 00:14:37,166 --> 00:14:41,200 in those minerals that are part of that agreement. 378 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,800 - Here's another paradox. 379 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,233 You know, U.S. states, 380 00:14:45,233 --> 00:14:47,366 and probably countries too I could think of, 381 00:14:47,366 --> 00:14:51,433 are kind of meeting their goals, if you will, 382 00:14:51,433 --> 00:14:56,200 by importing electrons, and fuels, and products, 383 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,200 and not producing them there. 384 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,800 Only one atmosphere. 385 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,166 How do we get? 386 00:15:01,166 --> 00:15:02,366 Where are we there? 387 00:15:02,366 --> 00:15:05,100 - I mean, it's an age old problem in public policy 388 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:07,866 is that when you set targets, 389 00:15:07,866 --> 00:15:11,966 they become subjects to be gained through accounting. 390 00:15:11,966 --> 00:15:14,933 This has always been a problem with using emissions 391 00:15:14,933 --> 00:15:17,400 as the measure of success for climate policy. 392 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,866 Emissions are an outcome. 393 00:15:18,866 --> 00:15:20,033 What we really wanna do 394 00:15:20,033 --> 00:15:22,700 is reduce the amount of burning of fossil fuels, 395 00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:24,966 or at least unmitigated fossil fuels. 396 00:15:24,966 --> 00:15:26,566 I mean, one of the reasons we don't do that 397 00:15:26,566 --> 00:15:29,333 is it creates a degree of political accountability. 398 00:15:29,333 --> 00:15:32,866 It's not just, you know, 399 00:15:32,866 --> 00:15:34,400 individual states, politicians, 400 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,300 and advocates like these games too. 401 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:39,466 Carbon offsets are a perfect example. 402 00:15:39,466 --> 00:15:42,433 So you can give the impression of making progress 403 00:15:42,433 --> 00:15:45,366 when the reality is a little bit more complicated. 404 00:15:45,366 --> 00:15:48,600 So I think adopting policy targets 405 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,133 that are much more closely associated 406 00:15:50,133 --> 00:15:53,200 with the nature of the problem we're trying to address 407 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,666 reduces, you'll never eliminate 408 00:15:55,666 --> 00:15:57,233 the gamesmanship in accounting, 409 00:15:57,233 --> 00:15:59,633 but we can reduce the scope for playing those games. 410 00:15:59,633 --> 00:16:03,200 - I hadn't thought about it that way, Roger. 411 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,200 To be honest with you, I've always thought about, 412 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,900 well, it's not the fuels that are the problem. 413 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:09,433 It's the emissions that are the problem. 414 00:16:09,433 --> 00:16:11,400 - It kinda proceeds in parallel track. 415 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,100 If we had carbon capture and storage 416 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,800 or carbon capture utilization at scale, 417 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,533 and that was available, then indeed, 418 00:16:19,533 --> 00:16:21,133 it would be about the emissions because then, 419 00:16:21,133 --> 00:16:24,400 that's a direct, but we don't have that at scale. 420 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,066 And so sure, let's pursue those technologies in parallel. 421 00:16:28,066 --> 00:16:31,333 But until we do so, reigning in the demand 422 00:16:31,333 --> 00:16:35,133 for fossil fuel worldwide is probably a much better focus 423 00:16:35,133 --> 00:16:37,533 than saying, well, let's just focus on this output, 424 00:16:37,533 --> 00:16:39,233 which is emissions, 425 00:16:39,233 --> 00:16:41,466 because that's gonna more directly address 426 00:16:41,466 --> 00:16:43,733 a whole suite of issues, not just the climate issue. 427 00:16:43,733 --> 00:16:44,700 - Yeah, absolutely. 428 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:46,366 I really think, I agree with Roger, 429 00:16:46,366 --> 00:16:48,933 and I really think it's about energy consumption. 430 00:16:48,933 --> 00:16:51,166 The energy intensity of our society. 431 00:16:51,166 --> 00:16:53,866 It's way too energy-intensive, our society. 432 00:16:53,866 --> 00:16:55,366 - This is another paradox. 433 00:16:55,366 --> 00:16:58,700 The paradox is, there is no scenario of the future 434 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:03,200 where the world does not use vastly more amounts of energy, 435 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,133 but at the same time, 436 00:17:04,133 --> 00:17:08,300 we want the energy intensity of the economy 437 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:10,433 to go down dramatically at the same time. 438 00:17:10,433 --> 00:17:12,033 And so we're trying to do two things, 439 00:17:12,033 --> 00:17:14,033 and I think that often gets confused in debates 440 00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:16,500 where people say, "Well, we should be using less energy." 441 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:18,066 And that's, you know, that's fine for those of us 442 00:17:18,066 --> 00:17:19,833 who are energy-rich, but when you realize 443 00:17:19,833 --> 00:17:23,500 there's billions of people who have almost none, 444 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:25,633 the world as a whole is just gonna go up and up 445 00:17:25,633 --> 00:17:28,766 with air conditioning, with jets, and travel, and so. 446 00:17:28,766 --> 00:17:30,633 So that's the world we have to prepare for. 447 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,800 - Look, speaking of electricity, we love energy, 448 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,266 but electricity, but we hate pipelines, we hate power lines, 449 00:17:38,266 --> 00:17:41,433 but we need 'em, we need infrastructure. 450 00:17:41,433 --> 00:17:43,633 Well, this is a paradox. 451 00:17:43,633 --> 00:17:45,166 Are we gonna have to learn 452 00:17:45,166 --> 00:17:47,000 how to embrace some infrastructure? 453 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,266 - If you want to have a centralized 454 00:17:49,266 --> 00:17:52,200 or relatively centralized energy system, 455 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,500 we will need a lot more electricity networks for sure. 456 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,566 Investment in grid is the real bottleneck today 457 00:17:59,566 --> 00:18:03,800 to the deployment of solar and wind at a massive scale. 458 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,500 There are very few manufacturers in the world 459 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:10,300 that are able to produce those high voltage cables, 460 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:14,100 and then certainly is the issue "not in my backyard," 461 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,333 which is a very important issue. 462 00:18:16,333 --> 00:18:17,866 [Scott] Which we now learned is BANANA. 463 00:18:17,866 --> 00:18:20,100 - Right. Exactly. 464 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:21,500 [Scott] And it becomes banana. 465 00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:22,433 - Exactly. 466 00:18:22,433 --> 00:18:23,400 - And pipelines too. 467 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,500 I mean, we won't build new pipelines here. 468 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,666 - I mean, we see this in New England, in the United States. 469 00:18:28,666 --> 00:18:32,300 You know, New England north of Pennsylvania is close 470 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:36,200 to some of the most accessible shale reserves in the world, 471 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,700 and, you know, during winter last year, 472 00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:42,966 people were burning oil for heat, 473 00:18:42,966 --> 00:18:44,233 which makes no sense. 474 00:18:44,233 --> 00:18:47,666 And that's partly, you know, what you call an own goal 475 00:18:47,666 --> 00:18:50,066 that, you know, by refusing to build 476 00:18:50,066 --> 00:18:52,366 the infrastructure necessary to move 477 00:18:52,366 --> 00:18:54,266 energy resources from one place to another. 478 00:18:54,266 --> 00:18:56,300 [Scott] The natural gas outta the Marcellus, for example. 479 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:57,733 - Exactly. Exactly. 480 00:18:57,733 --> 00:19:01,433 We wind up burning a much dirtier, more polluting fuel 481 00:19:01,433 --> 00:19:04,033 because people aren't gonna go cold. 482 00:19:04,033 --> 00:19:06,966 So this is an eternal problem, 483 00:19:06,966 --> 00:19:10,566 and I do think it is a luxury of rich countries 484 00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:13,833 to have all the energy resources you want 485 00:19:13,833 --> 00:19:15,666 and then simply oppose everything, 486 00:19:15,666 --> 00:19:18,633 which basically means we lock ourselves into the status quo. 487 00:19:18,633 --> 00:19:22,466 - So in this emissions and other things, 488 00:19:22,466 --> 00:19:25,166 what are the pros and cons of a carbon tax? 489 00:19:25,166 --> 00:19:29,600 - A carbon tax is, at some point, is absolutely necessary 490 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,900 if we're gonna achieve deep decarbonization. 491 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:36,900 What a carbon price, carbon tax, a carbon fee can do 492 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:39,333 is it can raise an enormous amount of resources 493 00:19:39,333 --> 00:19:42,866 to fund technological innovation and deployment, 494 00:19:42,866 --> 00:19:45,100 not just in the United States, but around the world. 495 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,200 For example, a five dollar a ton carbon tax. 496 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,833 That raises about $150 billion around the world, 497 00:19:51,833 --> 00:19:53,366 and the idea behind that 498 00:19:53,366 --> 00:19:56,700 is it doesn't matter where you start, but start low. 499 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:58,466 And then use at least some, 500 00:19:58,466 --> 00:20:00,466 I mean, politicians will siphon off some of that money 501 00:20:00,466 --> 00:20:02,233 for whatever they wanna do. 502 00:20:02,233 --> 00:20:04,133 But as fossil fuels go down 503 00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:06,166 in their proportion of the global economy, 504 00:20:06,166 --> 00:20:07,833 it becomes politically easier 505 00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:09,433 to ratchet up that price. 506 00:20:09,433 --> 00:20:11,600 - We have a tax on nuclear waste, 507 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,933 and it has all been siphoned off. 508 00:20:13,933 --> 00:20:15,466 We haven't done anything with it. 509 00:20:15,466 --> 00:20:19,133 The skeptics might say, oh, another new tax. 510 00:20:19,133 --> 00:20:21,766 - The example I use is the U.S. Highway Trust fund. 511 00:20:21,766 --> 00:20:24,000 So every time you put gas in your car, 512 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,633 you're paying a tax that goes into the Highway Trust Fund. 513 00:20:27,633 --> 00:20:30,066 When you're driving around, you see the orange cones, 514 00:20:30,066 --> 00:20:31,366 and that's employment. 515 00:20:31,366 --> 00:20:33,433 People are working, they're building infrastructure. 516 00:20:33,433 --> 00:20:35,566 Is some of the Highway Trust Fund 517 00:20:35,566 --> 00:20:36,866 siphoned off for other purposes? 518 00:20:36,866 --> 00:20:38,133 Of course it is, 519 00:20:38,133 --> 00:20:40,433 but that is the, I would say, 520 00:20:40,433 --> 00:20:42,800 the single most popular tax 521 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,333 that the U.S. government has had in the last half century 522 00:20:45,333 --> 00:20:49,966 because they see the benefits of that tax every year. 523 00:20:49,966 --> 00:20:53,366 And so if we create a virtuous cycle in energy 524 00:20:53,366 --> 00:20:55,033 where, you know, the promise isn't 525 00:20:55,033 --> 00:20:57,166 you're gonna see benefits in 2100, 526 00:20:57,166 --> 00:20:59,866 but no, we're gonna invest this in communities, 527 00:20:59,866 --> 00:21:01,400 and we're gonna have research institutes, 528 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,166 we're gonna actually have deployment projects 529 00:21:03,166 --> 00:21:06,166 for, you know, name your favorite technology 530 00:21:06,166 --> 00:21:08,266 in local places and create jobs, 531 00:21:08,266 --> 00:21:09,766 that's when I think it becomes more 532 00:21:09,766 --> 00:21:11,333 of a virtuous political circle. 533 00:21:11,333 --> 00:21:12,200 - Thoughts on that? 534 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,600 - Yeah, I agree with Roger just said, 535 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,233 but one of the issues around carbon taxes 536 00:21:15,233 --> 00:21:17,666 is that it has an asymmetrical impact 537 00:21:17,666 --> 00:21:20,100 on your industry and your cost of living 538 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:22,300 if not applied everywhere. 539 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:24,166 And so what you have to do is we just, 540 00:21:24,166 --> 00:21:27,100 you have to start with different levels of carbon taxes 541 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:28,800 depending on where 542 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,833 your economic development level is, right? 543 00:21:31,833 --> 00:21:36,900 You can't put a $50 carbon tax in Sub-Saharan Africa. 544 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,766 That doesn't make, you know, make sense at all. 545 00:21:39,766 --> 00:21:41,833 That's why you have to think about, 546 00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:43,500 it's not all about energy transition, 547 00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:45,233 it's about the just transition. 548 00:21:45,233 --> 00:21:46,766 I mean, I think the social aspect 549 00:21:46,766 --> 00:21:49,866 and social acceptance of the energy transition 550 00:21:49,866 --> 00:21:54,133 has been under-evaluated, under-considered, 551 00:21:54,133 --> 00:21:56,100 and I think now people just start realizing 552 00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:58,000 that if you don't have social acceptance 553 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,233 of the energy transition, 554 00:21:59,233 --> 00:22:01,200 you won't have an energy transition. 555 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,066 - Right. 556 00:22:02,066 --> 00:22:04,700 Look, we've talked about lots of things 557 00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:07,800 that are paradoxical, if you will. 558 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,000 Gimme some final thoughts. 559 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,633 Roger, if you don't mind, I'll just start with you. 560 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:12,066 - Yeah, you know, I think one thing 561 00:22:12,066 --> 00:22:13,600 this conversation brings out is we need 562 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,600 a better policy approach to create a level playing field 563 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,300 that's technology-blind. 564 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:20,900 Usually what people will do is say, 565 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,366 "Well, we need more regulations 566 00:22:22,366 --> 00:22:25,300 for those technologies I don't like, 567 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:28,166 and we need more subsidies for those that I do." 568 00:22:28,166 --> 00:22:31,333 And then we get this mishmash of policies where, you know, 569 00:22:31,333 --> 00:22:33,433 coal is not treated the same as nuclear, 570 00:22:33,433 --> 00:22:36,633 and wind and solar are treated differently than natural gas, 571 00:22:36,633 --> 00:22:40,566 and, you know, in any plausible scenario of the future, 572 00:22:40,566 --> 00:22:43,000 we're gonna have a wide range of technologies 573 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,466 that are deployed, including fossil fuels, 574 00:22:45,466 --> 00:22:50,066 but recognize that fighting against energy 575 00:22:50,066 --> 00:22:54,533 is pretty punitive for a lot of people around the world. 576 00:22:54,533 --> 00:22:55,800 So having a positive outlook 577 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,400 on how do we provide the energy services that people demand, 578 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,633 that people need, while at the same time, 579 00:23:00,633 --> 00:23:02,133 trying to balance these other goals, 580 00:23:02,133 --> 00:23:04,366 I think, you know, I am actually very optimistic 581 00:23:04,366 --> 00:23:07,400 about the future and how we'll be able to do that. 582 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,300 Not least because there are billions of people 583 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,533 around the world demanding that we do that. 584 00:23:11,533 --> 00:23:14,000 And so if we can take some of the negativity 585 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,366 and politics out of energy policy debates, 586 00:23:16,366 --> 00:23:18,000 and instead focus on, all right, 587 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,966 let's get our minds together and, you know, 588 00:23:19,966 --> 00:23:21,400 we're gonna make a lot of mistakes 589 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,700 and things aren't always gonna work out, 590 00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:24,266 but as long as we're moving incrementally, 591 00:23:24,266 --> 00:23:27,066 we might see outcomes like we see in feeding the world, 592 00:23:27,066 --> 00:23:29,000 and improving public health around the world, 593 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,333 which are tremendous success stories over the last century. 594 00:23:32,333 --> 00:23:34,133 So maybe at the end of this century, 595 00:23:34,133 --> 00:23:35,366 we look back and we say, you know, 596 00:23:35,366 --> 00:23:37,766 energy was the one of the 21st century 597 00:23:37,766 --> 00:23:40,100 that we really made a lot of progress on. 598 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,300 - Yeah, I like that optimistic thinking 599 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,700 and technology blind. 600 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:45,633 Final thoughts? 601 00:23:45,633 --> 00:23:47,166 - Yeah, two things. 602 00:23:47,166 --> 00:23:50,033 I think policy making needs to be flexible. 603 00:23:50,033 --> 00:23:53,233 We are facing an uncertain future. 604 00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:55,966 So when you take a decision today, 605 00:23:55,966 --> 00:23:57,133 you don't know whether that decision 606 00:23:57,133 --> 00:23:59,733 will be as good as you think it's today, 607 00:23:59,733 --> 00:24:01,766 tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow. 608 00:24:01,766 --> 00:24:05,166 So we need to embed flexibility in that policy. 609 00:24:05,166 --> 00:24:06,633 - Allow for learning 610 00:24:06,633 --> 00:24:07,966 and change. - Allow for learning, 611 00:24:07,966 --> 00:24:10,566 especially because the future is very uncertain. 612 00:24:10,566 --> 00:24:12,733 - Yes, that's a great point. - And diversification, 613 00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:19,233 you know, technology mixes complex options, create options, 614 00:24:19,233 --> 00:24:20,833 that's the way forward. 615 00:24:20,833 --> 00:24:23,066 The second point, and I have to do that, 616 00:24:23,066 --> 00:24:25,500 it's international cooperation. 617 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:27,866 Climate change, energy transition is an 618 00:24:27,866 --> 00:24:29,266 international issue. 619 00:24:29,266 --> 00:24:32,666 It doesn't know any boundaries, 620 00:24:32,666 --> 00:24:34,066 and we are in a situation where 621 00:24:34,066 --> 00:24:36,633 actually international cooperation is breaking down. 622 00:24:36,633 --> 00:24:37,800 - Yeah, just one atmosphere. 623 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,433 - Exactly, international cooperation 624 00:24:39,433 --> 00:24:42,933 has never been as important as it is today. 625 00:24:42,933 --> 00:24:43,900 - Interesting. 626 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:44,966 Look, I appreciate your thoughts, 627 00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:47,066 and really enjoyed our visit today. 628 00:24:47,066 --> 00:24:48,200 - Thank you. 629 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,500 - And your knowledge and expertise is terrific as always. 630 00:24:52,633 --> 00:24:54,133 Governments and markets need to solve 631 00:24:54,133 --> 00:24:56,133 many energy challenges, 632 00:24:56,133 --> 00:24:58,933 of which climate change is only one. 633 00:24:58,933 --> 00:25:02,666 Sometimes, these challenges may be at odds with each other. 634 00:25:02,666 --> 00:25:04,933 Such as the need to provide more energy 635 00:25:04,933 --> 00:25:07,766 while simultaneously emitting less. 636 00:25:07,766 --> 00:25:09,633 Solutions will be imperfect, 637 00:25:09,633 --> 00:25:11,933 and may best work regionally. 638 00:25:11,933 --> 00:25:15,766 We should expect some failure and look for compromise. 639 00:25:15,766 --> 00:25:18,533 We'll need to accept that no energy is perfect, 640 00:25:18,533 --> 00:25:20,266 which may mean embracing solutions 641 00:25:20,266 --> 00:25:22,300 that are not universally popular, 642 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:23,666 like nuclear, 643 00:25:23,666 --> 00:25:26,066 new mines for renewable energy minerals, 644 00:25:26,066 --> 00:25:27,366 new pipelines, 645 00:25:27,366 --> 00:25:29,100 and new power lines. 646 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,166 Carbon reduction goals are most likely to succeed 647 00:25:32,166 --> 00:25:34,066 if they're technology agnostic, 648 00:25:34,066 --> 00:25:36,400 open to whatever does the job. 649 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,666 Recognizing internal conflicts, 650 00:25:38,666 --> 00:25:40,400 increasing transparency, 651 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,400 and prioritizing education 652 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,033 will help policy makers and the public 653 00:25:45,033 --> 00:25:48,700 minimize these energy and climate paradoxes. 654 00:25:52,766 --> 00:26:02,833 ♪ 655 00:26:02,833 --> 00:26:11,833 ♪ 656 00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:19,833 ♪ 657 00:26:20,733 --> 00:26:22,066 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 658 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:25,200 was provided in part by 659 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,700 The University of Texas at Austin, 660 00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:30,133 leading research in energy and the environment 661 00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,033 for a better tomorrow. 662 00:26:32,033 --> 00:26:35,566 What starts here changes the world.