1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,133 [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 2 00:00:02,133 --> 00:00:04,900 we'll look at Indian energy and climate policies 3 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:07,366 focusing first on electricity. 4 00:00:07,366 --> 00:00:09,633 - Where India goes, goes climate, 5 00:00:09,633 --> 00:00:11,366 meaning that in the next decade to decades, 6 00:00:11,366 --> 00:00:14,133 they're going to require a whole lot of energy 7 00:00:14,133 --> 00:00:16,433 to basically move from a lower middle-income economy 8 00:00:16,433 --> 00:00:17,900 to a higher income economy. 9 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:21,833 - India's per capita is 1.89 tons per person. 10 00:00:21,833 --> 00:00:22,900 - Tons of CO2. 11 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,266 - CO2, and the U.S. is around seven. 12 00:00:25,266 --> 00:00:28,166 If India were to grow at the American rate, 13 00:00:28,166 --> 00:00:30,666 then it'll run through its oil 14 00:00:30,666 --> 00:00:32,266 and coal reserves very, very quickly. 15 00:00:32,266 --> 00:00:35,400 So clearly there has to be other interventions made. 16 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,233 [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 17 00:00:37,233 --> 00:00:40,500 Energy and Climate Policies in India, Part 1. 18 00:00:42,533 --> 00:00:43,866 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 19 00:00:43,866 --> 00:00:46,533 was provided in part by, 20 00:00:46,533 --> 00:00:49,533 The University of Texas at Austin, 21 00:00:49,533 --> 00:00:51,000 leading research in energy 22 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,866 and the environment for a better tomorrow. 23 00:00:53,866 --> 00:00:56,633 What starts here changes the world. 24 00:00:58,666 --> 00:00:59,900 [upbeat music] 25 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:01,200 - I'm Scott Tinker, 26 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,200 and I'm an energy scientist. 27 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:04,900 I work in the field, 28 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:06,033 lead research, 29 00:01:06,033 --> 00:01:07,400 speak around the world, 30 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,833 write articles, 31 00:01:08,833 --> 00:01:11,433 and make films about energy. 32 00:01:11,433 --> 00:01:14,133 This show brings together leading experts 33 00:01:14,133 --> 00:01:16,966 on vital topics in energy and climate. 34 00:01:17,433 --> 00:01:19,233 They may have different perspectives, 35 00:01:19,233 --> 00:01:22,266 but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 36 00:01:22,266 --> 00:01:25,600 and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 37 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:29,100 Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 38 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,233 India recently passed China 39 00:01:32,233 --> 00:01:34,933 to become the world's most populated country 40 00:01:34,933 --> 00:01:37,266 but uses just a quarter of China's energy. 41 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:40,466 India plans to develop much more energy 42 00:01:40,466 --> 00:01:43,066 to grow its manufacturing and other industries 43 00:01:43,066 --> 00:01:45,000 and lift its people out of poverty. 44 00:01:45,466 --> 00:01:48,133 This includes expanding electricity generation 45 00:01:48,133 --> 00:01:50,866 using coal, just as China did. 46 00:01:50,866 --> 00:01:53,200 This could make it very difficult for the world 47 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,733 to meet its carbon reduction targets. 48 00:01:55,733 --> 00:01:58,933 We'll talk about this and more with 49 00:01:58,933 --> 00:02:00,500 Padu Padmanaban. 50 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:03,200 He's a visiting researcher at the King Abdullah Center 51 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,633 in Saudi Arabia, 52 00:02:04,633 --> 00:02:06,733 formerly an energy efficiency advisor 53 00:02:06,733 --> 00:02:08,000 to the World Bank 54 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,766 and program director at USAID. 55 00:02:10,766 --> 00:02:13,000 Tom Moerenhout is a senior associate 56 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,000 at the International Institute for Sustainable Development 57 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,100 and a professor at Columbia University's 58 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:20,733 School of International and Public Affairs. 59 00:02:22,033 --> 00:02:23,633 Next on "Energy Switch," 60 00:02:23,633 --> 00:02:25,633 we'll discuss electricity in India 61 00:02:25,633 --> 00:02:27,266 and its global significance. 62 00:02:27,866 --> 00:02:31,000 Why should the U.S. viewers care about energy 63 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,766 and development in India? 64 00:02:32,766 --> 00:02:34,400 And Tom, I'll just start with you. 65 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,666 - Where India goes, goes climate. 66 00:02:36,666 --> 00:02:38,133 It's one of the economies 67 00:02:38,133 --> 00:02:42,866 with the quickest energy demand growth rate in the world, 68 00:02:42,866 --> 00:02:44,833 meaning that in the next decade to decades, 69 00:02:44,833 --> 00:02:47,633 they're going to require a whole lot of energy 70 00:02:47,633 --> 00:02:49,933 to basically move from a lower middle-income economy 71 00:02:49,933 --> 00:02:51,633 to a higher income economy. 72 00:02:51,633 --> 00:02:52,933 And the big vital question is, 73 00:02:52,933 --> 00:02:54,800 what is going to power that energy? 74 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,800 Is that going to be fossil fuels or renewables? 75 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,833 - Anything to add to that, Padu? 76 00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:00,300 - India's time has come. 77 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:02,466 It's in the sweet spot. - Yep. 78 00:03:02,466 --> 00:03:04,200 - It's the fifth-largest economy in the world. 79 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,066 It's growing at six percent. 80 00:03:06,066 --> 00:03:07,266 In terms of energy, 81 00:03:07,266 --> 00:03:09,700 it's the third-largest consumer of energy 82 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:13,500 and the third-largest emitter of carbon dioxide. 83 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:16,200 So in many ways, India is very important 84 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,500 for climate change and for climate solutions. 85 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:22,133 - Right, and interestingly, China, 86 00:03:22,133 --> 00:03:26,566 who has been the most populated country, is now second. 87 00:03:26,566 --> 00:03:28,966 China has grown per capita, not to where the U.S. is, 88 00:03:28,966 --> 00:03:31,100 but certainly higher than India, 89 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:34,733 and India needs to go there in order to grow its economy? 90 00:03:34,733 --> 00:03:37,066 - Not necessarily. 91 00:03:37,066 --> 00:03:41,633 India's per capita is 1.89 tons per person. 92 00:03:41,633 --> 00:03:43,866 China is around 15. 93 00:03:43,866 --> 00:03:44,900 [Scott] Tons of CO2. 94 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:47,633 - CO2, and the U.S. is around seven. 95 00:03:47,633 --> 00:03:50,433 And if India were to grow at the Chinese rate 96 00:03:50,433 --> 00:03:52,366 or the American rate, 97 00:03:52,366 --> 00:03:54,966 then it'll run through its oil 98 00:03:54,966 --> 00:03:56,466 and coal reserves very, very quickly. 99 00:03:56,466 --> 00:03:58,166 So it's not going to happen. 100 00:03:58,166 --> 00:04:01,266 So clearly, there has to be other interventions made, 101 00:04:01,266 --> 00:04:03,366 and other interventions are renewable energy 102 00:04:03,366 --> 00:04:04,733 and energy efficiency. 103 00:04:04,733 --> 00:04:08,233 - Just real broadly, what's the energy mix in India today? 104 00:04:08,233 --> 00:04:10,066 - Coal is around 75%, 105 00:04:10,066 --> 00:04:14,266 and that includes a bit of gas also, but-- 106 00:04:14,266 --> 00:04:15,600 - Okay, natural gas and coal. 107 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,800 - But about 12% is what is generated by renewables, 108 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,333 which is solar and wind. 109 00:04:22,333 --> 00:04:23,433 - Okay. 110 00:04:23,433 --> 00:04:25,966 - And about three percent is generated by nuclear. 111 00:04:25,966 --> 00:04:27,000 [Scott] Okay. 112 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,833 - And hydro has another eight to 10%. 113 00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:32,800 - In many ways, folks have framed the future 114 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,266 of electricity in India as almost a competition 115 00:04:36,266 --> 00:04:39,566 between coal and solar, 116 00:04:39,566 --> 00:04:43,300 quite a bit of coal in the mix today. 117 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:45,000 Is that growing? 118 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,366 - Coal has had a small revival 119 00:04:50,366 --> 00:04:53,633 in, you know, the last couple of years, why? 120 00:04:53,633 --> 00:04:54,933 Because the energy demand growth, 121 00:04:54,933 --> 00:04:58,233 electricity demand growth is so strong. 122 00:04:58,233 --> 00:05:00,133 So when you talk about solar, 123 00:05:00,133 --> 00:05:02,233 last year was actually a record year. 124 00:05:02,233 --> 00:05:04,666 They added about a third more capacity of solar. 125 00:05:04,666 --> 00:05:06,933 That's crazy, those numbers are astronomical. 126 00:05:06,933 --> 00:05:08,333 I think they were second to China 127 00:05:08,333 --> 00:05:11,766 in terms of the percentage increase, 128 00:05:11,766 --> 00:05:14,533 but even that only covered less than half 129 00:05:14,533 --> 00:05:16,933 of the demand growth that they actually had. 130 00:05:16,933 --> 00:05:20,033 So the rest is mostly covered by coal, 131 00:05:20,033 --> 00:05:22,433 and that means existing power plants, 132 00:05:22,433 --> 00:05:24,966 you know, having them run more often, right? 133 00:05:24,966 --> 00:05:26,666 So it's not that we're necessarily constructing 134 00:05:26,666 --> 00:05:30,633 a whole new fleet, but we definitely, you know- 135 00:05:30,633 --> 00:05:32,900 - Right, very interesting. - But having said that, 136 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:36,233 the number of coal plants being retired has accelerated. 137 00:05:36,233 --> 00:05:37,366 - Absolutely. 138 00:05:37,366 --> 00:05:39,000 - Largely because many of the coal-fired power plants 139 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,533 are what are known as stranded assets. 140 00:05:41,533 --> 00:05:42,800 And many of them are stranded assets 141 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,833 because they're no longer profitable to run them. 142 00:05:45,833 --> 00:05:49,800 It costs something like 12 cents a unit 143 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,900 for a coal-fired power plant as again, 144 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:56,300 just 2.5 or 3 cents a unit for a solar power plant. 145 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:57,866 - A unit being like a kilowatt hour 146 00:05:57,866 --> 00:05:59,100 or something? - Kilowatt hour. 147 00:05:59,100 --> 00:06:00,333 Yeah, like a kilowatt hour. 148 00:06:00,333 --> 00:06:01,466 [Scott] Okay. 149 00:06:01,466 --> 00:06:05,633 - So solar is about 1/4 to 1/5 the price of coal, 150 00:06:05,633 --> 00:06:08,700 but the question is the availability, 151 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:09,866 as you rightly said. 152 00:06:09,866 --> 00:06:12,833 Coal-fired power plants are base-loaded power plants, 153 00:06:12,833 --> 00:06:15,066 and you just cannot remove a coal-fired power plant 154 00:06:15,066 --> 00:06:19,066 from the system without the grid being impacted. 155 00:06:19,566 --> 00:06:23,633 - Yeah, I wanna make sure to represent this fairly. 156 00:06:23,633 --> 00:06:27,566 We're adding 10 times more solar and wind than coal, 157 00:06:27,566 --> 00:06:28,800 correct? - Absolutely, yep. 158 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,600 - But when you get to the capacity factors 159 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,233 and what we end up with there, 160 00:06:32,233 --> 00:06:33,500 you're still generating a little more 161 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:34,866 from coal than solar and wind. 162 00:06:34,866 --> 00:06:36,600 - Sure. - They are, yep. 163 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,933 - But another angle to it which comes into the equation 164 00:06:38,933 --> 00:06:40,266 but doesn't show in the calculations 165 00:06:40,266 --> 00:06:43,400 as we would like to see it, and that is they want to reduce 166 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,200 the energy intensity of the economy by 45%. 167 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,400 Then you're able to now see that they can 168 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,600 meet the energy demands through solar as well as-- 169 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:55,666 [Scott] Right, coal. 170 00:06:55,666 --> 00:06:57,900 - So this is actually extremely important, right? 171 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:01,400 That 45% reduction of your emissions intensity 172 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,633 of your economy is key, 173 00:07:03,633 --> 00:07:04,933 because if that doesn't work out, 174 00:07:04,933 --> 00:07:07,033 that doesn't work. - That doesn't work out. 175 00:07:07,033 --> 00:07:10,500 - Interesting, as we see energy demand projected 176 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:12,766 to grow in India, what sectors is that happening? 177 00:07:12,766 --> 00:07:14,733 - For energy, I mean, industry is a big one. 178 00:07:14,733 --> 00:07:15,600 - Okay. 179 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,866 - And now, I mean, you were mentioning 180 00:07:16,866 --> 00:07:18,000 India is at the sweet spot. 181 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,433 I also think for domestic manufacturing, you know, 182 00:07:20,433 --> 00:07:23,000 where China was sort of the manufacturing hub 183 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,100 of the world before, a lot of that is now also 184 00:07:26,100 --> 00:07:28,233 going to start in India, 185 00:07:28,233 --> 00:07:30,066 - Making the world's stuff. 186 00:07:30,066 --> 00:07:32,166 - So the world's stuff, but also, you know, 187 00:07:32,166 --> 00:07:35,266 as the standard of living increases in India, 188 00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:36,900 you know, people use more appliances, 189 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:38,800 so you have manufacturing there. 190 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,333 You have huge urbanization rates. 191 00:07:41,333 --> 00:07:43,266 When you hear urbanization, you need to hear, 192 00:07:43,266 --> 00:07:45,833 I mean, everybody should hear cement, steel, right? 193 00:07:45,833 --> 00:07:48,233 Demand for cement is gonna increase twofold 194 00:07:48,233 --> 00:07:50,766 in the next 10 years, steel demand threefold. 195 00:07:50,766 --> 00:07:51,766 - Right. 196 00:07:51,766 --> 00:07:55,566 - Forty-five percent of the energy consumed 197 00:07:55,566 --> 00:07:57,966 is in industrial sector. 198 00:07:57,966 --> 00:08:02,233 There is some exports of steel and aluminum, 199 00:08:02,233 --> 00:08:04,466 but it isn't at the scale of China, 200 00:08:04,466 --> 00:08:06,466 nowhere close to the scale of China. 201 00:08:06,466 --> 00:08:10,533 - Okay, gotcha, given this growth in population, 202 00:08:10,533 --> 00:08:13,966 manufacturing, industrial, internal, external, 203 00:08:13,966 --> 00:08:16,000 is there a net zero target in India? 204 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,700 When is that set for? 205 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:19,366 How do we meet that? 206 00:08:19,366 --> 00:08:20,633 - So the second question 207 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:21,933 is more difficult than the first one. 208 00:08:21,933 --> 00:08:23,800 [Scott] [laughs] Let's go with the first one. 209 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,200 - India has a net zero target for 2070. 210 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,800 By 2030, India wants half of its electricity 211 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,766 to be from non-fossil sources. 212 00:08:30,766 --> 00:08:32,400 [Scott] Is that possible? 213 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,666 - It could be, but it is going to require 214 00:08:34,666 --> 00:08:36,100 a huge amount of investment, 215 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:37,333 and it's going to require, 216 00:08:37,333 --> 00:08:39,533 of course, also, you know, 217 00:08:39,533 --> 00:08:41,433 shutting down certain coal facilities. 218 00:08:41,433 --> 00:08:43,066 - Right, that's tough. - Which is a whole 219 00:08:43,066 --> 00:08:44,300 political economy problem 220 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:45,800 of its own, yeah. - That's tough. 221 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,500 So let's get into electricity. 222 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:48,900 India is very populated. 223 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:53,500 How many people there still lack reliable electricity? 224 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:56,466 - It could be as much as 1/4 of the population, 225 00:08:56,466 --> 00:09:00,333 which could be almost 400 million people, 226 00:09:00,333 --> 00:09:04,366 or 1/5 of the population or 1/6 of the population. 227 00:09:04,366 --> 00:09:06,300 But be that as it may, 228 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,833 let us see what the Indian government has done 229 00:09:09,833 --> 00:09:12,166 to improve energy access. 230 00:09:12,166 --> 00:09:16,033 And one can say with a certain amount of confidence 231 00:09:16,033 --> 00:09:20,666 that the cities and towns receive power. 232 00:09:20,666 --> 00:09:23,566 Maybe the reliability of supply 233 00:09:23,566 --> 00:09:27,033 and the availability may be questionable in some areas, 234 00:09:27,033 --> 00:09:29,533 but by and large, they are connected to the grid. 235 00:09:29,533 --> 00:09:31,633 Then there is the rural India, 236 00:09:31,633 --> 00:09:34,033 which has 600,000 villages. 237 00:09:34,033 --> 00:09:38,666 If a village has all its governmental buildings 238 00:09:38,666 --> 00:09:43,166 provided with electricity and 10% of the household 239 00:09:43,166 --> 00:09:45,033 is provided with electricity, 240 00:09:45,033 --> 00:09:47,833 then the village is deemed as electrified. 241 00:09:47,833 --> 00:09:50,500 All the villages have been connected to power, 242 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:52,833 according to the government and their statistics. 243 00:09:52,833 --> 00:09:54,766 But how many households have been covered? 244 00:09:54,766 --> 00:09:56,366 That's questionable. 245 00:09:56,366 --> 00:10:00,500 But my last point on this is there are 20,000 hamlets, 246 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:02,966 if I might say so, which for love or for money, 247 00:10:02,966 --> 00:10:04,766 you can't provide them with electricity 248 00:10:04,766 --> 00:10:06,266 because they're too remote. 249 00:10:06,266 --> 00:10:10,566 Now, all those 20,000, according to the government data, 250 00:10:10,566 --> 00:10:12,333 have now received power, 251 00:10:12,333 --> 00:10:13,933 but not from the grid, 252 00:10:13,933 --> 00:10:16,433 but decentralized energy systems. 253 00:10:16,433 --> 00:10:19,766 - Can people afford to buy electricity? 254 00:10:19,766 --> 00:10:21,333 - Many, yes, some no. 255 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:22,433 Access is one thing. 256 00:10:22,433 --> 00:10:25,500 Indeed, affordability is another, and I think that's, 257 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,300 you know, you have tariff systems for that, right? 258 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:30,533 And you could, right now I think tariff systems 259 00:10:30,533 --> 00:10:34,133 are skewed, often have regressive subsidies as well, 260 00:10:34,133 --> 00:10:38,666 where higher-income families still receive subsidies. 261 00:10:38,666 --> 00:10:40,433 Eventually transferring that system to one 262 00:10:40,433 --> 00:10:42,633 where you do give very affordable electricity 263 00:10:42,633 --> 00:10:45,400 for, let's say, a first, certain consumption amount, 264 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,366 50 kilowatt hour or something like, 265 00:10:47,366 --> 00:10:49,000 that could make a lot of sense. 266 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,966 - Right, right, electric companies in India, 267 00:10:51,966 --> 00:10:53,733 how's their financial health? 268 00:10:53,733 --> 00:10:55,300 How are they doing? 269 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:59,633 - The generating companies are doing well, reasonably. 270 00:10:59,633 --> 00:11:01,833 They're turning a profit. 271 00:11:01,833 --> 00:11:04,933 The transmission companies, other than a few exceptions, 272 00:11:04,933 --> 00:11:09,100 either the state or the central level, are also doing well. 273 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:12,000 The problem is with the distribution companies. 274 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,800 Many of them are running into huge losses. 275 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,300 Sometimes they don't do their forecasting planning well. 276 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:21,200 Then they make ad hoc decisions 277 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,833 and end up buying power when it's very, very costly. 278 00:11:24,833 --> 00:11:27,900 So that has been one major issue. 279 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,300 The other is transmission and distribution losses, 280 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:34,000 which are very high in India. 281 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,966 We used to do a calculation based on the 35% loss. 282 00:11:36,966 --> 00:11:38,166 - Wow! - And 40% loss. 283 00:11:38,166 --> 00:11:41,700 But now it's come down to 22%. 284 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:43,700 - Why was it so, were there people 285 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:45,600 tapping into them or people- 286 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,700 - That's exactly what it is. - Yes, exactly. 287 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:48,600 [Scott] Okay. 288 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,000 - So you have technical losses, right? 289 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,900 That's often because distribution companies 290 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:53,733 that don't have enough money can't invest 291 00:11:53,733 --> 00:11:55,500 in upgrading your infrastructure. 292 00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:57,033 And then you have commercial losses, 293 00:11:57,033 --> 00:12:00,366 which is basically electricity that is either not built 294 00:12:00,366 --> 00:12:02,733 or it's built, but the bills are not collected, 295 00:12:02,733 --> 00:12:04,133 the payments are not collected, 296 00:12:04,133 --> 00:12:05,233 and these are quite high as well. 297 00:12:05,233 --> 00:12:08,200 And that second part is for a large part 298 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,166 because of political reasons, you know. 299 00:12:11,166 --> 00:12:12,466 You allow people not to pay their bills 300 00:12:12,466 --> 00:12:13,700 or give them free electricity 301 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:17,100 because they are an important group either voting for you 302 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:20,033 or supporting your political endeavors. 303 00:12:20,033 --> 00:12:21,300 India is not alone in this. 304 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:22,566 I don't wanna say-- 305 00:12:22,566 --> 00:12:24,000 [Scott] That never happens here. [laughs] 306 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,500 [Tom] That is a problem across the world. 307 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:29,666 - There was a time when the Indian electricity sector 308 00:12:29,666 --> 00:12:32,200 was seen as a political patronage machine. 309 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,300 Now it's far less because with the reforms in the sector, 310 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:41,766 we have independent regulators in each of the states. 311 00:12:41,766 --> 00:12:44,433 And that seems to have insulated it 312 00:12:44,433 --> 00:12:48,133 from political pressure, but not entirely, 313 00:12:48,133 --> 00:12:50,800 because at the time of elections, for instance, 314 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,633 it's a fairly populous thing to offer free power. 315 00:12:55,633 --> 00:12:56,933 - In some states, not all, 316 00:12:56,933 --> 00:12:59,600 but some of these so-called independent 317 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,033 regulatory agencies are not particularly 318 00:13:02,033 --> 00:13:03,100 independent. - Independent. 319 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:04,866 - They are very much under political pressure 320 00:13:04,866 --> 00:13:06,733 to keep the tariff low. 321 00:13:06,733 --> 00:13:08,933 And then states throw in subsidies. 322 00:13:08,933 --> 00:13:11,633 They don't always do this on time, which is a big problem 323 00:13:11,633 --> 00:13:14,500 for distribution companies for their financial viability. 324 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:17,600 And right now subsidies in total, it's 18 billion 325 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,566 to distribution companies per year. 326 00:13:19,566 --> 00:13:21,200 - It is $18 billion. 327 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,800 It's 25% of what India spends on health 328 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,766 and almost 40% of what it spends on education. 329 00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:30,600 [Scott] Wow, that's not trivial. 330 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,800 [Tom] No. 331 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,066 - The infrastructure itself, transmission infrastructure 332 00:13:34,066 --> 00:13:37,866 to go from the generation to the distribution, how's that? 333 00:13:37,866 --> 00:13:39,466 Is that in pretty good shape? 334 00:13:39,466 --> 00:13:42,466 - Well, it is in pretty good shape. 335 00:13:42,466 --> 00:13:45,000 India was not a unified grid. 336 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,600 Now it is a unified grid. 337 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,500 - Okay, expanding it in the future, 338 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:50,200 what are the projections for that? 339 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,866 - I don't know the amount of the investment needed, 340 00:13:52,866 --> 00:13:54,533 but that will be significant. 341 00:13:54,533 --> 00:13:55,933 It's not different from anywhere else 342 00:13:55,933 --> 00:13:57,533 in the fact that if you want more renewables, 343 00:13:57,533 --> 00:14:00,266 you're going to need much stronger transmission. 344 00:14:00,266 --> 00:14:01,366 - Right, yes. 345 00:14:01,366 --> 00:14:02,600 - So that investment will be- 346 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,200 - And you can't put those investments 347 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,900 on the investor of the renewable project, so far, 348 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:10,400 otherwise your tariffs will be very, very high. 349 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,633 And to a large extent, that's one of the reasons 350 00:14:12,633 --> 00:14:17,600 why solar power is 2.7 cents per unit 351 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,500 is because the transmission infrastructure 352 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:24,866 is built by the government. 353 00:14:24,866 --> 00:14:27,966 Land is given at a subsidized rate, 354 00:14:27,966 --> 00:14:30,566 and a lot of other infrastructure 355 00:14:30,566 --> 00:14:32,266 facilities are provided 356 00:14:32,266 --> 00:14:34,733 and all that the developer has to do 357 00:14:34,733 --> 00:14:37,466 is provide the panels, do a bit of electronics, 358 00:14:37,466 --> 00:14:39,800 and it becomes a plug-and-play system. 359 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,600 - That also means that you see, what was it, 360 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,400 28% added capacity in 2022. 361 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,333 That's where that comes from, right? 362 00:14:47,333 --> 00:14:49,100 So if you subsidize it, then at one point, 363 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:52,100 you will get into trouble with both your market 364 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,266 and to a certain extent with your grid capacity 365 00:14:54,266 --> 00:14:56,800 to integrate that. 366 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,900 And that should probably require more preparation. 367 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:01,033 - Right. 368 00:15:01,033 --> 00:15:03,200 - I mean, when China did this big sort of growth spurt 369 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,766 in renewables, you had a similar thing. 370 00:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,600 At one point, there was I think 20, 25% of capacity 371 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,100 that was standing idle. 372 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,233 That was more because it wasn't getting connected. 373 00:15:11,233 --> 00:15:13,333 But so a lot of people are asking also that question, 374 00:15:13,333 --> 00:15:17,266 you know, shouldn't you be thinking about that beforehand? 375 00:15:17,266 --> 00:15:18,766 Sometimes when you install a lot of things 376 00:15:18,766 --> 00:15:20,133 and your problem gets bigger, 377 00:15:20,133 --> 00:15:23,733 that's when it rises up the ranks of priority items or-- 378 00:15:23,733 --> 00:15:26,100 - There are a lot of unintended consequences. 379 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:28,300 - There is, yes. - There we go, yeah, yeah. 380 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:33,800 - Yeah, China is an interesting model for India to examine. 381 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,366 Their solar is incredible. 382 00:15:35,366 --> 00:15:36,433 Their wind's incredible. 383 00:15:36,433 --> 00:15:38,500 But China's still building more than one coal plant 384 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:40,033 every week, too, though. 385 00:15:40,033 --> 00:15:41,433 And that's why I think a lot of people 386 00:15:41,433 --> 00:15:45,400 worry about these stated goals 387 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,433 and how they come in conflict with energy security. 388 00:15:49,433 --> 00:15:54,033 So when pressed, would Mr. Modi choose electricity 389 00:15:54,033 --> 00:15:55,866 and energy security 390 00:15:55,866 --> 00:15:57,366 or climate security? 391 00:15:57,366 --> 00:15:59,833 - Thus far, the government has been playing 392 00:15:59,833 --> 00:16:01,833 both sides of the equation, 393 00:16:01,833 --> 00:16:04,900 trying to have a policy on energy 394 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:08,233 which is climate compatible. 395 00:16:08,233 --> 00:16:09,966 Can't say politically what they would do 396 00:16:09,966 --> 00:16:11,833 if the push comes to shove 397 00:16:11,833 --> 00:16:14,066 and they're forced to take a decision, 398 00:16:14,066 --> 00:16:16,300 and then probably the politician will do 399 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:18,933 whatever is necessary for his election 400 00:16:18,933 --> 00:16:20,333 in the next elections. 401 00:16:20,333 --> 00:16:21,600 - Right. - And I mean, 402 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,000 that's a difficult part as well, right? 403 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,100 India imports a quarter of its coal, 404 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,966 means it produces about 75% domestically. 405 00:16:28,966 --> 00:16:30,533 That's a resource it has. 406 00:16:30,533 --> 00:16:31,933 - Absolutely. - It was it very similar 407 00:16:31,933 --> 00:16:33,900 for China. - Absolutely, and here. 408 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:36,300 - And so it's difficult to say, "Hey, don't grow on the back 409 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,600 of what you actually have at home." 410 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,000 I think beyond that, though, it's quite interesting 411 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,400 because India also has goals 412 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,566 for energy independence by 2045 focusing on renewables. 413 00:16:45,566 --> 00:16:47,400 You go renewables because quite frankly, 414 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,766 you know, it's also in your interest, right? 415 00:16:50,766 --> 00:16:53,833 When you look at oil imports for India, 416 00:16:53,833 --> 00:16:55,200 costs a ton of money, 417 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,966 like 120 billion in 2022 alone, right? 418 00:16:57,966 --> 00:17:00,366 So if you can reduce that with electric mobility 419 00:17:00,366 --> 00:17:02,533 for example, you know, you're actually gaining 420 00:17:02,533 --> 00:17:04,700 energy security advantages as well. 421 00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:07,100 - Which countries in the world are you dependent on 422 00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:08,866 to meet these solar and wind targets? 423 00:17:08,866 --> 00:17:12,300 Where does all the stuff come from? 424 00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:14,100 - A lot comes from China. - A lot comes. 425 00:17:14,100 --> 00:17:15,966 - It is for sure a security question, 426 00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:19,266 and that, of course, is the appeal of coal within India 427 00:17:19,266 --> 00:17:22,000 is look, we have it here domestically, right? 428 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,266 Now, when you look at renewable energy supply chains, 429 00:17:24,266 --> 00:17:25,633 let's not pretend that India 430 00:17:25,633 --> 00:17:27,033 is the only one who relies on China. 431 00:17:27,033 --> 00:17:28,200 - No, pretty much everybody does. 432 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,900 [Tom] That's pretty much the whole world- 433 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,133 [Scott] Yeah, China was brilliant that way. 434 00:17:31,133 --> 00:17:33,100 - is relying on China. 435 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:36,366 - Just to add to this, India became an importer 436 00:17:36,366 --> 00:17:41,066 of coal only in 2005, and the reason is Indian coal 437 00:17:41,066 --> 00:17:43,766 is very, very difficult to burn. 438 00:17:43,766 --> 00:17:46,933 It has a calorific value which is probably 50% 439 00:17:46,933 --> 00:17:49,433 of the calorific value of a U.S. coal. 440 00:17:49,433 --> 00:17:50,866 Very few countries would be able 441 00:17:50,866 --> 00:17:52,666 to handle that kind of coal. 442 00:17:52,666 --> 00:17:56,100 So now they use blended coal, imported coal, 443 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,700 and thus it improves the availability of the power plant. 444 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:00,200 - Right. - And another thing 445 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,700 is that the government does not seem 446 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:05,266 to have come out with a policy document 447 00:18:05,266 --> 00:18:08,866 or pronouncements saying in very clear terms 448 00:18:08,866 --> 00:18:12,500 that this is going to be a transition away from coal. 449 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:14,133 It has always been ambiguous. 450 00:18:14,133 --> 00:18:15,300 - Right. 451 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:19,633 - One of the reasons could be that reducing coal mining 452 00:18:19,633 --> 00:18:22,500 has enormous socioeconomic issues. 453 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,866 When it comes to a coal mine, in India, 454 00:18:25,866 --> 00:18:31,366 the entire town, everyone is dependent on the coal mine. 455 00:18:31,366 --> 00:18:32,333 [Scott] It goes away. 456 00:18:32,333 --> 00:18:33,500 [Padu] So if that goes away, 457 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:35,366 then everyone is affected. - Absolutely. 458 00:18:35,366 --> 00:18:37,600 - And that's where official statistics are often wrong. 459 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,433 Official statistics, they often talk about, 460 00:18:39,433 --> 00:18:41,466 you know, around half a million. 461 00:18:41,466 --> 00:18:43,300 To begin with, it's more like two million 462 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:45,400 when you look at informal workers as well. 463 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,266 - So they don't want to talk about a program 464 00:18:48,266 --> 00:18:50,866 which will transit away from coal 465 00:18:50,866 --> 00:18:54,333 and create all these political upheavals 466 00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:55,866 because they'll be answerable 467 00:18:55,866 --> 00:18:57,566 to the electorate at some time, 468 00:18:57,566 --> 00:18:59,966 so they want to be quiet about it. 469 00:18:59,966 --> 00:19:03,300 And tomorrow a new coal mine may come up, 470 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,633 in which case they'll try to take credit for it. [laughs] 471 00:19:05,633 --> 00:19:07,766 So they want to leave that option. 472 00:19:07,766 --> 00:19:10,033 [Scott] Well, politicians are politicians. 473 00:19:10,033 --> 00:19:11,500 [Padu] Politicians are politicians. 474 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:13,400 - Can coal communities adapt? 475 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,766 How does that happen? 476 00:19:14,766 --> 00:19:16,533 - The issue of just transition now 477 00:19:16,533 --> 00:19:19,300 is getting to be very important and is being taken up 478 00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:22,600 by the government very, very seriously, 479 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,433 because coal mines are being shut down, 480 00:19:25,433 --> 00:19:28,333 and people are being unemployed, 481 00:19:28,333 --> 00:19:31,400 and one has to re-skill them, reeducate them, 482 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,200 get them to work in other sectors of industry. 483 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,566 It's still work in progress, 484 00:19:37,566 --> 00:19:42,633 but it's a very, very important aspect of the planning. 485 00:19:43,666 --> 00:19:46,066 - Could India's coal fleet, 486 00:19:46,066 --> 00:19:49,033 future coal fleet be used more efficiently? 487 00:19:49,033 --> 00:19:50,966 - Many of the newer power plants 488 00:19:50,966 --> 00:19:55,100 in the last seven to eight years have been ultra-critical 489 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:56,866 or supercritical power plants, 490 00:19:56,866 --> 00:19:58,366 which have a higher efficiency 491 00:19:58,366 --> 00:20:02,100 than the existing subcritical power plants. 492 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:06,133 So there's been a fair amount of development in that area. 493 00:20:06,133 --> 00:20:07,933 - I think that's important, and you see, 494 00:20:07,933 --> 00:20:10,900 you know, getting to supercritical infrastructure, 495 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,166 there's biomass coal firing, 496 00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:14,466 and then when you go down that list, 497 00:20:14,466 --> 00:20:16,933 you also obviously have CCUS, right? 498 00:20:16,933 --> 00:20:18,833 - Sure. - Like, these things help, 499 00:20:18,833 --> 00:20:21,100 but let's not pretend that they- 500 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,100 - They're not the solution. 501 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:23,400 - That they're going to be the solution 502 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,200 to global climate change- - They're not the solution. 503 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,833 - Or India's climate problem. - Absolutely, yeah. 504 00:20:26,833 --> 00:20:28,600 [Tom] Clean coal is, how do you call it, 505 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,233 like when you have an internal contradiction 506 00:20:30,233 --> 00:20:32,066 between two words? - Oxymoron. [laughs] 507 00:20:32,066 --> 00:20:33,566 - There we go. 508 00:20:33,566 --> 00:20:36,966 - It seems like there's a uranium elephant 509 00:20:36,966 --> 00:20:38,700 in the room here to me. 510 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:39,833 - Let's talk about it. 511 00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:43,466 - What's the future for nuclear generation in India? 512 00:20:43,466 --> 00:20:44,800 - First of all, there are, I think, 513 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,933 about six reactors under construction. 514 00:20:46,933 --> 00:20:48,066 - Six. - So it is happening. 515 00:20:48,066 --> 00:20:48,966 - That's a start. 516 00:20:48,966 --> 00:20:50,333 - For me, there's like a theoretical side 517 00:20:50,333 --> 00:20:51,400 and a practical side. 518 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,966 Theoretical side is nuclear is low carbon, right? 519 00:20:53,966 --> 00:20:56,633 It gives you a very nice base load. 520 00:20:56,633 --> 00:20:58,800 The practical side is, 521 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,866 it depends whether you can do it 522 00:21:00,866 --> 00:21:03,066 at a cost that is reasonable. 523 00:21:03,066 --> 00:21:04,033 When you look at China, 524 00:21:04,033 --> 00:21:05,400 that is what they have been able to do. 525 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,433 They indigenize nuclear energy technology, 526 00:21:07,433 --> 00:21:09,133 and then they've been able to, you know, 527 00:21:09,133 --> 00:21:10,866 more or less copy/paste it, 528 00:21:10,866 --> 00:21:13,400 you know, in an economically sound way. 529 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,366 The type of power plants or nuclear power plants 530 00:21:15,366 --> 00:21:17,266 that we wanna go for, the big ones, 531 00:21:17,266 --> 00:21:19,200 in the United States and in Europe 532 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,533 have always run over cost and over time. 533 00:21:22,533 --> 00:21:24,166 There are plants in Europe 534 00:21:24,166 --> 00:21:26,200 which have been under construction for 535 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:27,666 close to two decades, 536 00:21:27,666 --> 00:21:30,000 you know, next-generation power plants. 537 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,166 And when you look at their levelized cost of electricity- 538 00:21:32,166 --> 00:21:34,833 - Cost at the plant gate, not to the consumer, 539 00:21:34,833 --> 00:21:35,800 but at the plant gate. 540 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,133 - Taking into account everything, 541 00:21:37,133 --> 00:21:39,800 construction, capacity factor, subsidies, 542 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,133 you know, across the lifetime, 543 00:21:41,133 --> 00:21:44,500 if we all put that into one metric, 544 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:46,433 nuclear energy in the West, 545 00:21:46,433 --> 00:21:48,433 of new nuclear power plants, right, 546 00:21:48,433 --> 00:21:51,933 not existing ones, but new ones, super high, 547 00:21:51,933 --> 00:21:55,033 which doesn't mean that it couldn't be used in India. 548 00:21:55,033 --> 00:21:57,333 But let's not put that nuclear elephant there 549 00:21:57,333 --> 00:21:59,533 as like, you know, this is the panacea, 550 00:21:59,533 --> 00:22:01,266 this is the solution to everything. 551 00:22:01,266 --> 00:22:04,766 - But the reality is that in terms of nuclear, 552 00:22:04,766 --> 00:22:07,600 India has just got 6,800 megawatts. 553 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,100 - Yeah, very small. 554 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:10,500 - And when you have a nuclear power plant, 555 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:13,100 it runs at a high load factor, no doubt. 556 00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:15,600 But to get to that point requires enormous 557 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,633 amount of effort 558 00:22:16,633 --> 00:22:18,933 which I don't think the Indian biosector 559 00:22:18,933 --> 00:22:21,000 is ready to embrace. 560 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,600 The NGO community in India is very, very strong. 561 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,966 - It is. - It is very, very vocal, 562 00:22:24,966 --> 00:22:26,133 very, very vocal. - Oh, interesting. 563 00:22:26,133 --> 00:22:29,100 - They're not going to allow a nuclear power plant 564 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,066 in one's backyard that easily. 565 00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:33,133 It is even worse-- - And why is that? 566 00:22:33,133 --> 00:22:35,333 - The entire issue of waste disposal 567 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:37,500 and safety and all of that. 568 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:40,800 Another reason on nuclear is that information 569 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,466 and data on nuclear is not readily available 570 00:22:43,466 --> 00:22:46,133 as it is available for other sources of energy, 571 00:22:46,133 --> 00:22:48,166 although it's far better than what it used to be. 572 00:22:48,166 --> 00:22:50,633 Nonetheless, there isn't sufficient discussion 573 00:22:50,633 --> 00:22:52,900 and debate in the country on nuclear 574 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:56,333 and the role that nuclear could play. 575 00:22:56,333 --> 00:23:01,433 - You've done a nice job of talking about India policy. 576 00:23:01,433 --> 00:23:03,866 Roll in your own thinking a little bit here. 577 00:23:03,866 --> 00:23:07,700 If you had to bet your own money 578 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,600 on where India would be in 2030 and 2050 579 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,633 with a coal, solar, let's say, nuclear mix, 580 00:23:15,633 --> 00:23:17,666 give me just a summary thought on that. 581 00:23:17,666 --> 00:23:20,900 - I believe it's possible for them to reach their targets 582 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:24,900 around the time that they've announced them. 583 00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:28,800 It's going to require a whole lot more funding 584 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,466 than is being put in right now. 585 00:23:31,466 --> 00:23:34,633 So I look at your question through that lens, 586 00:23:34,633 --> 00:23:36,533 and the reality is that if we wanna reach 587 00:23:36,533 --> 00:23:39,700 those 2030, 2040, 2050 goals, 588 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:43,733 that we have about 160 to 200 billion 589 00:23:43,733 --> 00:23:46,266 per year financing gap, 590 00:23:46,266 --> 00:23:48,200 and so is it possible technically? 591 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,000 Yes, is it possible because of the available skills 592 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,366 and willingness and realization of the fact 593 00:23:53,366 --> 00:23:54,733 that climate change is a problem? 594 00:23:54,733 --> 00:23:56,100 100%. 595 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:59,233 Do you have the money to do it in that timeframe? 596 00:23:59,233 --> 00:24:01,466 That's where-- - Right, gotcha. 597 00:24:01,466 --> 00:24:02,933 Same question, Padu. 598 00:24:02,933 --> 00:24:04,900 - Financing, I think, is critical. 599 00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:06,700 And just to add to the numbers, 600 00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:11,366 estimates are that 1.5 to 2% of the GDP of the country 601 00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:14,600 would have to be spent as an additionality 602 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,700 to what is already being spent in the electricity sector. 603 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:22,066 That translates itself into a requirement 604 00:24:22,066 --> 00:24:26,200 of about 120 to $150 billion 605 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,033 every year until 2040 606 00:24:29,033 --> 00:24:32,533 when essentially much of the investments would've happened. 607 00:24:32,533 --> 00:24:34,933 And cumulatively, it'll come to something like 608 00:24:34,933 --> 00:24:38,200 four trillion dollars is what India would require. 609 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,066 - Appreciate the summaries. 610 00:24:40,066 --> 00:24:42,700 Been a great initial session here. 611 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,400 - Thank you. 612 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,233 [Scott] India is already the third-largest energy consumer 613 00:24:48,233 --> 00:24:50,533 and carbon emitter in the world 614 00:24:50,533 --> 00:24:53,733 but has the fastest-growing energy demand. 615 00:24:53,733 --> 00:24:57,333 Coal currently makes about 75% of their electricity 616 00:24:57,333 --> 00:25:00,833 with the other 25% mostly solar, hydro, 617 00:25:00,833 --> 00:25:03,300 and other non-carbon sources. 618 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:06,566 The coal industry employs nearly two million Indians, 619 00:25:06,566 --> 00:25:09,966 making coal politically and economically important. 620 00:25:09,966 --> 00:25:13,033 Yet, some older coal plants are retiring 621 00:25:13,033 --> 00:25:17,133 since they can't compete with new highly subsidized solar. 622 00:25:17,133 --> 00:25:19,966 India values solar as a domestic resource 623 00:25:19,966 --> 00:25:21,966 that requires no imported fuel, 624 00:25:21,966 --> 00:25:23,733 reduces local air pollution, 625 00:25:23,733 --> 00:25:25,766 and helps meet climate targets. 626 00:25:25,766 --> 00:25:29,466 But it would take four trillion dollars of additional investment 627 00:25:29,466 --> 00:25:33,733 from now to 2040 to dramatically increase energy efficiency, 628 00:25:33,733 --> 00:25:37,233 expand the grid, and improve electricity distribution, 629 00:25:37,233 --> 00:25:38,700 and build out solar 630 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:40,500 and other non-carbon resources 631 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:43,266 to transform the electricity system in India. 632 00:25:43,266 --> 00:25:46,566 And it would likely make electricity more expensive. 633 00:25:46,566 --> 00:25:48,133 Whatever India's choices, 634 00:25:48,133 --> 00:25:51,900 their future energy mix will impact the world's climate. 635 00:25:53,166 --> 00:26:01,900 ♪ ♪ 636 00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:11,833 ♪ ♪ 637 00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:19,833 ♪ ♪ 638 00:26:20,733 --> 00:26:22,066 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 639 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:25,200 was provided in part by 640 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,700 The University of Texas at Austin, 641 00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:30,133 leading research in energy and the environment 642 00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,033 for a better tomorrow. 643 00:26:32,033 --> 00:26:35,566 What starts here changes the world.