1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:02,233 [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 2 00:00:02,233 --> 00:00:04,833 part two of Decarbonizing Industry. 3 00:00:04,833 --> 00:00:07,966 This time looking at fertilizer and petrochemicals. 4 00:00:07,966 --> 00:00:11,666 - Carbon is the building block of everything we see. 5 00:00:11,666 --> 00:00:16,100 And if that carbon didn't come from a plant source, 6 00:00:16,100 --> 00:00:17,900 it came from petrochemicals. 7 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:21,500 About 14 million barrels of oil a day. 8 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:23,566 And then eight percent of the world's gas supply 9 00:00:23,566 --> 00:00:25,333 goes into petrochemicals. 10 00:00:25,333 --> 00:00:29,066 - Right now, there's a lot of wasted fertilizer. 11 00:00:29,066 --> 00:00:33,266 If we used our fertilizer more precisely, 12 00:00:33,266 --> 00:00:35,166 it would reduce the greenhouse gases 13 00:00:35,166 --> 00:00:37,600 and it would make the local environmental conditions 14 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,900 much better. 15 00:00:39,233 --> 00:00:40,933 [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 16 00:00:40,933 --> 00:00:43,900 Decarbonizing Heavy Industry Part Two. 17 00:00:45,833 --> 00:00:47,200 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 18 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,300 was provided in part by 19 00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:52,833 The University of Texas at Austin, 20 00:00:52,833 --> 00:00:55,166 leading research in energy and the environment 21 00:00:55,166 --> 00:00:57,166 for a better tomorrow. 22 00:00:57,166 --> 00:00:59,866 What starts here changes the world. 23 00:01:02,133 --> 00:01:03,366 [upbeat music] 24 00:01:03,366 --> 00:01:04,600 - I'm Scott Tinker, 25 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,600 and I'm an energy scientist. 26 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,300 I work in the field, 27 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:09,433 lead research, 28 00:01:09,433 --> 00:01:10,800 speak around the world, 29 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,233 write articles, 30 00:01:12,233 --> 00:01:14,833 and make films about energy. 31 00:01:14,833 --> 00:01:17,533 This show brings together leading experts 32 00:01:17,533 --> 00:01:20,366 on vital topics in energy and climate. 33 00:01:20,833 --> 00:01:22,633 They may have different perspectives, 34 00:01:22,633 --> 00:01:25,666 but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 35 00:01:25,666 --> 00:01:29,000 and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 36 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,266 Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 37 00:01:33,433 --> 00:01:35,133 In part one of this discussion, 38 00:01:35,133 --> 00:01:38,233 we heard ideas to decarbonize cement and steel, 39 00:01:38,233 --> 00:01:40,866 two industries that built the modern world. 40 00:01:40,866 --> 00:01:43,300 We'll conclude with a look at fertilizer, 41 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:46,166 which has made modern agriculture possible, 42 00:01:46,166 --> 00:01:48,400 and petrochemicals and plastic, 43 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,133 which today go into nearly every product. 44 00:01:51,133 --> 00:01:53,100 These two industries are vital 45 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:55,433 to the success of global societies, 46 00:01:55,433 --> 00:01:59,300 yet produce a large portion of global greenhouse emissions. 47 00:01:59,300 --> 00:02:02,566 We'll look at ideas to reduce that again with, 48 00:02:02,566 --> 00:02:04,200 Samantha Gross is the director 49 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,566 of Energy Security and Climate Initiative 50 00:02:06,566 --> 00:02:08,133 at Brookings Institute, 51 00:02:08,133 --> 00:02:09,433 and formerly the director 52 00:02:09,433 --> 00:02:12,666 of the Office of Climate and Clean Energy at the DOE. 53 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:14,466 Rebecca Dell. 54 00:02:14,466 --> 00:02:16,366 She's the senior director for industry 55 00:02:16,366 --> 00:02:18,133 at the ClimateWorks Foundation, 56 00:02:18,133 --> 00:02:20,233 formerly at the U.S. Department of Energy 57 00:02:20,233 --> 00:02:22,566 and the Scripps Oceanographic Institute. 58 00:02:23,833 --> 00:02:25,300 Next on "Energy Switch," 59 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,066 part two of our look at potential solutions 60 00:02:28,066 --> 00:02:29,866 to decarbonize industry. 61 00:02:30,633 --> 00:02:31,900 Let's get started. 62 00:02:32,666 --> 00:02:34,033 Fertilizers. 63 00:02:34,033 --> 00:02:36,033 How much do we use today globally, 64 00:02:36,033 --> 00:02:37,966 and why is it important? 65 00:02:38,433 --> 00:02:42,433 - The key ingredient in most fertilizers is ammonia. 66 00:02:42,433 --> 00:02:46,266 That is the single largest production chemical 67 00:02:46,266 --> 00:02:48,166 of any chemical in the world. 68 00:02:48,166 --> 00:02:52,266 We make almost 200 million tons a year of ammonia, 69 00:02:52,266 --> 00:02:55,533 and about 70% of that goes into fertilizer. 70 00:02:55,533 --> 00:02:58,933 - Fertilizers have helped to feed the world. 71 00:02:58,933 --> 00:03:03,966 - Yeah, so it's kind of an amazing fact 72 00:03:03,966 --> 00:03:06,566 that if you were born 73 00:03:06,566 --> 00:03:09,666 any time starting around the mid-1980s, 74 00:03:09,666 --> 00:03:11,733 then on average, 75 00:03:11,733 --> 00:03:16,366 at least half of the nitrogen atoms in your body 76 00:03:16,366 --> 00:03:19,233 were put there through the Haber-Bosch process 77 00:03:19,233 --> 00:03:20,933 at an ammonia factory. 78 00:03:20,933 --> 00:03:21,966 - Wow. 79 00:03:21,966 --> 00:03:24,166 - Our bodies are physically made 80 00:03:24,166 --> 00:03:28,733 out of the atoms that went into the fertilizer. 81 00:03:28,733 --> 00:03:29,933 - Interesting. 82 00:03:29,933 --> 00:03:31,733 So what is ammonia? 83 00:03:31,733 --> 00:03:34,866 - Ammonia chemically is NH3. 84 00:03:34,866 --> 00:03:36,800 It's made of nitrogen and hydrogen. 85 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:37,800 - Okay. 86 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,100 - And the Haber-Bosch process, 87 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:42,233 which is how we've been making ammonia forever, 88 00:03:42,233 --> 00:03:45,400 basically takes nitrogen out of the air 89 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,233 and combines it 90 00:03:47,233 --> 00:03:50,100 with hydrogen that you have gotten from somewhere. 91 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:51,866 - Okay. - Chemically. 92 00:03:51,866 --> 00:03:54,100 So we're sort of back to, how do you make hydrogen? 93 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:55,033 - Right. 94 00:03:55,033 --> 00:03:56,566 - The reason why ammonia production 95 00:03:56,566 --> 00:03:59,100 is a large emitter of greenhouse gases 96 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:01,433 is because it uses hydrogen. 97 00:04:01,433 --> 00:04:02,533 Today, that hydrogen comes 98 00:04:02,533 --> 00:04:04,766 from splitting molecules of natural gas 99 00:04:04,766 --> 00:04:07,766 into their component, carbon and hydrogen, 100 00:04:07,766 --> 00:04:09,700 with the carbon pairing up with oxygen 101 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:11,133 and going off as CO2. 102 00:04:11,133 --> 00:04:12,166 - Okay. 103 00:04:12,166 --> 00:04:13,400 - And then you take the hydrogen off 104 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:14,533 and use it to make ammonia. 105 00:04:14,533 --> 00:04:16,166 - Here in the United States, 106 00:04:16,166 --> 00:04:20,533 we mostly make that hydrogen from methane. 107 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:22,566 But in other countries, 108 00:04:22,566 --> 00:04:25,366 they use other fossil fuels. 109 00:04:25,366 --> 00:04:28,066 Particularly in China, they use coal. 110 00:04:28,066 --> 00:04:31,800 And so you react coal with water 111 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,566 to get the hydrogen out of the water-- 112 00:04:33,566 --> 00:04:35,300 - Oh, okay. - and emit the CO2. 113 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:38,133 That process is three or four times as much CO2 114 00:04:38,133 --> 00:04:40,066 per unit of ammonia. 115 00:04:40,066 --> 00:04:42,033 - As splitting methane. - As splitting methane. 116 00:04:42,033 --> 00:04:43,266 - Interesting. - Yeah. 117 00:04:43,266 --> 00:04:44,733 - And then in other countries, they use oil 118 00:04:44,733 --> 00:04:45,933 to make ammonia. 119 00:04:45,933 --> 00:04:48,066 It's just a matter of what fuel is available, 120 00:04:48,066 --> 00:04:49,466 cheapest locally. 121 00:04:49,466 --> 00:04:50,700 - For your hydrogen. Right. 122 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:52,900 So decarbonizing that is a challenge. 123 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:56,366 I mean, are there changes in fertilizers that we can do 124 00:04:56,366 --> 00:05:00,733 to start to decarbonize the fertilizer sector? 125 00:05:00,733 --> 00:05:01,800 How do we go about it? 126 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:02,866 - Sure. 127 00:05:02,866 --> 00:05:04,333 I mean, as we've been talking about 128 00:05:04,333 --> 00:05:06,300 with some other materials, 129 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:07,666 the first thing we can do 130 00:05:07,666 --> 00:05:10,500 is we can use fertilizer more efficiently. 131 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:14,333 Right now, there's a lot of wasted fertilizer, 132 00:05:14,333 --> 00:05:17,766 and that has a lot of local environmental problems 133 00:05:17,766 --> 00:05:18,900 that it creates. 134 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:20,833 It runs off into the water, 135 00:05:20,833 --> 00:05:23,733 it can contaminate ground water, 136 00:05:23,733 --> 00:05:28,000 it can also be converted into other greenhouse gases 137 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,100 that will then be emitted from agricultural fields. 138 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:37,033 So if we used our fertilizer more precisely, 139 00:05:37,033 --> 00:05:40,300 it would reduce the greenhouse gases both coming and going, 140 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:42,766 and it would make the local environmental conditions 141 00:05:42,766 --> 00:05:44,200 much better. - Right. 142 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,533 - There are some big questions. 143 00:05:45,533 --> 00:05:47,833 How much reduction is actually available 144 00:05:47,833 --> 00:05:50,600 without reducing our agricultural yields? 145 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,666 And how do we do that 146 00:05:53,666 --> 00:05:56,433 in countries where they don't have access 147 00:05:56,433 --> 00:06:00,100 to like sophisticated precision agriculture technologies, 148 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:03,133 and, you know, what are there things that they can do? 149 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:04,266 - Gotcha. 150 00:06:04,266 --> 00:06:05,733 - You talk about runoff. 151 00:06:05,733 --> 00:06:08,366 This gets into waterways, it flows into the oceans. 152 00:06:08,366 --> 00:06:11,066 And what happens is that leftover fertilizer 153 00:06:11,066 --> 00:06:14,333 fertilizes those waterways and the oceans as well. 154 00:06:14,333 --> 00:06:17,466 And so you get an overgrowth of algae. 155 00:06:17,466 --> 00:06:20,700 So it's taking up the fertilizer and it's growing more, 156 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:23,133 which then soaks up all the oxygen, 157 00:06:23,133 --> 00:06:25,233 and so you have areas where they're full of algae 158 00:06:25,233 --> 00:06:27,200 but where fish can't live 159 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,666 because there's not enough oxygen for the fish. 160 00:06:28,666 --> 00:06:29,833 - Interesting. 161 00:06:29,833 --> 00:06:32,466 - Another interesting area that's more about human health 162 00:06:32,466 --> 00:06:35,733 is you get runoff in the form of nitrates. 163 00:06:35,733 --> 00:06:39,266 And nitrates are really bad for human babies. 164 00:06:39,266 --> 00:06:41,533 So it's not just about greenhouse gases 165 00:06:41,533 --> 00:06:44,000 or even mostly about greenhouse gases. 166 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,533 The greenhouse gas benefits are almost a side benefit 167 00:06:46,533 --> 00:06:48,133 to all the other benefits 168 00:06:48,133 --> 00:06:49,633 that we can get from more efficient use. 169 00:06:49,633 --> 00:06:51,133 - Yeah, I love that you're talking about 170 00:06:51,133 --> 00:06:52,400 the broader environment. 171 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,766 I mean, we were talking about decarbonization here today, 172 00:06:54,766 --> 00:06:55,933 that's our topic, - Yeah. 173 00:06:55,933 --> 00:06:58,700 - but the land, the air and the water matter a lot. 174 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:02,600 - Yeah. And different people have very different ideas 175 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,800 about how much efficiency is available. 176 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,300 And so you'll find estimates of anywhere between, 177 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:12,733 we could reduce fertilizer use by 20%, 178 00:07:12,733 --> 00:07:15,933 up to, we could reduce fertilizer use by 90%. 179 00:07:15,933 --> 00:07:17,266 - That's quite a spread. 180 00:07:17,266 --> 00:07:18,666 - It's quite a spread, yeah. 181 00:07:18,666 --> 00:07:20,466 We know that there is a significant 182 00:07:20,466 --> 00:07:22,333 improvement available 183 00:07:22,333 --> 00:07:25,166 but how much of it is achievable? 184 00:07:25,166 --> 00:07:26,966 I don't think we know. 185 00:07:26,966 --> 00:07:30,533 - I mean, are there some non-ammonia options 186 00:07:30,533 --> 00:07:32,066 to fertilizers? 187 00:07:32,066 --> 00:07:33,266 - Sure. 188 00:07:33,266 --> 00:07:35,966 - Or non, that don't have the CO2-equivalent challenges? 189 00:07:35,966 --> 00:07:37,066 - Yeah. 190 00:07:37,066 --> 00:07:40,666 There are things like biotechnology interventions 191 00:07:40,666 --> 00:07:44,900 that make it possible for a wider variety of plants 192 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:47,933 to use nitrogen from the atmosphere. 193 00:07:47,933 --> 00:07:50,733 Also, other forms of nitrogen 194 00:07:50,733 --> 00:07:53,700 like nitrates instead of ammonia. 195 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:58,766 Probably the optimal pathway would be some combination 196 00:07:58,766 --> 00:08:02,200 of make the ammonia more cleanly 197 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,100 and use these other types of interventions 198 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:06,166 all in a balanced way. 199 00:08:06,166 --> 00:08:08,900 We as humans don't have a great history 200 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:10,800 of following optimal pathways. 201 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,066 - Yeah. 202 00:08:12,066 --> 00:08:13,533 - We don't usually, 203 00:08:13,533 --> 00:08:14,766 - I think you just describe my life. 204 00:08:14,766 --> 00:08:16,466 - Yeah. 205 00:08:16,466 --> 00:08:19,966 That's not a thing that we're usually able to pull off. 206 00:08:19,966 --> 00:08:22,000 - Not an optimization process here for sure. 207 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,333 - And so even if we achieve significant reductions 208 00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:29,033 in the climate impacts, 209 00:08:29,033 --> 00:08:31,266 it's probably gonna be a very messy process. 210 00:08:31,266 --> 00:08:32,400 - Interesting. - Yeah. 211 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,566 And I'll add, 212 00:08:33,566 --> 00:08:36,066 for small farmers or subsistence farmers, 213 00:08:36,066 --> 00:08:38,400 there are completely organic ways 214 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,633 to use less fertilizer as well. 215 00:08:40,633 --> 00:08:43,633 Certain kinds of plants fix nitrogen out of the air. 216 00:08:43,633 --> 00:08:45,466 They have the ability to do that, 217 00:08:45,466 --> 00:08:47,566 so they actually make the soil better. 218 00:08:47,566 --> 00:08:49,766 Legumes are good nitrogen fixers. 219 00:08:49,766 --> 00:08:52,033 You can rotate crops that help to fix nitrogen 220 00:08:52,033 --> 00:08:53,366 and improve the soil. 221 00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:56,300 You can plant cover crops that fix nitrogen. 222 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:59,533 And so there are both high and low tech solutions 223 00:08:59,533 --> 00:09:00,933 that make a lot of sense. 224 00:09:00,933 --> 00:09:02,833 - That's a great point, Samantha. 225 00:09:02,833 --> 00:09:06,466 Does hydrogen play a role in that process? 226 00:09:06,466 --> 00:09:07,833 - Yeah. - Bring us back there. 227 00:09:07,833 --> 00:09:08,933 - Sure. 228 00:09:08,933 --> 00:09:13,500 So if we are successful in these efficiency efforts, 229 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:16,200 that will reduce the amount of ammonia that we need, 230 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,333 it will not eliminate the need for ammonia. 231 00:09:19,333 --> 00:09:21,533 Basically, all of the energy use, 232 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:24,433 almost all of the energy use in that process 233 00:09:24,433 --> 00:09:26,300 comes from making the hydrogen. 234 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:29,100 And so from the production side, 235 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:33,666 most of the problem is can we get enough clean hydrogen. 236 00:09:33,666 --> 00:09:38,266 And I think ammonia is a particularly stark example 237 00:09:38,266 --> 00:09:40,900 of something that you see in a lot of heavy industry, 238 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:44,933 which is that there are enormous economies of scale. 239 00:09:44,933 --> 00:09:47,233 So almost all of the ammonia 240 00:09:47,233 --> 00:09:50,433 that's used by every farmer everywhere in the world 241 00:09:50,433 --> 00:09:52,733 is made in about 300 factories. 242 00:09:52,733 --> 00:09:54,000 - Three hundred? - Yeah. 243 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,866 - It's funny, you think about there only being 300 factories 244 00:09:56,866 --> 00:09:58,766 and how concentrated that is. 245 00:09:58,766 --> 00:09:59,766 On the other hand, 246 00:09:59,766 --> 00:10:02,066 that's only 300 factories that we need to tackle 247 00:10:02,066 --> 00:10:03,866 to deal with this problem. - That's a good point. 248 00:10:03,866 --> 00:10:06,500 - And as the larger hydrogen economy develops, 249 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:10,133 there will be more clean hydrogen available to those. 250 00:10:10,133 --> 00:10:12,666 But those 300 ammonia factories 251 00:10:12,666 --> 00:10:16,033 could be kickstarters for hydrogen demand 252 00:10:16,033 --> 00:10:18,233 in the areas where they are located. 253 00:10:18,233 --> 00:10:20,133 I think that could really be an opportunity. 254 00:10:20,133 --> 00:10:21,366 - That's interesting. 255 00:10:21,366 --> 00:10:22,866 The end cost to fertilizer. 256 00:10:22,866 --> 00:10:24,133 Back to fertilizer a little bit, 257 00:10:24,133 --> 00:10:28,366 how does making hydrogen differently affect the cost? 258 00:10:28,366 --> 00:10:32,833 How much is the cost of fertilizer to farmers? 259 00:10:33,433 --> 00:10:35,566 - Yeah, those are great questions. 260 00:10:35,566 --> 00:10:41,933 So, it can be a significant cost for a farmer, 261 00:10:41,933 --> 00:10:46,900 but it's not a significant portion of the cost of the food. 262 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:48,266 You're not gonna see that difference 263 00:10:48,266 --> 00:10:49,800 in your grocery store. 264 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:50,833 - Right. 265 00:10:50,833 --> 00:10:53,433 - But farmers, 266 00:10:53,433 --> 00:10:56,233 like people who own factories, 267 00:10:56,233 --> 00:10:59,233 are often operating on very narrow margins 268 00:10:59,233 --> 00:11:03,900 because the price of ammonia is very, very closely tied 269 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,000 to the price of the fossil fuel that it's made out of. 270 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,700 Here in the U.S., gas, 271 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:11,733 those prices can be very volatile. 272 00:11:11,733 --> 00:11:13,633 - Yeah. - And so in some ways, 273 00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:15,566 the volatility of the price 274 00:11:15,566 --> 00:11:18,033 can be as much of a source of difficulty 275 00:11:18,033 --> 00:11:21,033 as the absolute level of the price. 276 00:11:21,033 --> 00:11:22,900 And so one of the things that people are thinking about 277 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:28,933 is that can we make the clean alternatives 278 00:11:28,933 --> 00:11:31,300 to conventional ammonia production 279 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:34,466 have some additional price stability in them. 280 00:11:34,466 --> 00:11:35,800 - Interesting. 281 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,233 - One of the most damaging consequences 282 00:11:39,233 --> 00:11:43,166 of these dynamics of this potential volatility 283 00:11:43,166 --> 00:11:45,000 since Russia invaded Ukraine. 284 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,400 - Yes, huge. 285 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,733 - Because Russia, 286 00:11:47,733 --> 00:11:49,800 because it has so much fossil fuels, 287 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:55,433 it's one of the world's leading producers of fertilizer. 288 00:11:55,433 --> 00:11:59,266 And when that fertilizer left the global market, 289 00:11:59,266 --> 00:12:03,466 it caused crazy price spikes all over the world. 290 00:12:03,466 --> 00:12:06,100 And those were particularly damaging 291 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,333 to farmers in low income countries 292 00:12:08,333 --> 00:12:11,666 that did not have domestic production of fertilizer. 293 00:12:11,666 --> 00:12:12,833 Yes, absolutely. 294 00:12:12,833 --> 00:12:14,866 - That were entirely dependent on international trade. 295 00:12:14,866 --> 00:12:17,666 - Yeah, I really appreciate you both, 296 00:12:17,666 --> 00:12:20,466 the way you're sharing and explaining. 297 00:12:20,466 --> 00:12:23,833 Quite often, when we hear somebody selling something, 298 00:12:23,833 --> 00:12:26,300 you hear about this thing, it's completely factual. 299 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:27,200 - It's great. 300 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,866 - But it's not factually complete, 301 00:12:28,866 --> 00:12:30,900 which, there's a big difference. 302 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:32,566 And you're sharing kind of what I would describe 303 00:12:32,566 --> 00:12:34,366 as more factually complete. 304 00:12:34,366 --> 00:12:36,566 - And if you don't think about it that way, 305 00:12:36,566 --> 00:12:38,266 change doesn't happen. 306 00:12:38,266 --> 00:12:39,233 [Scott] Yeah. Yeah. - Yeah. 307 00:12:39,233 --> 00:12:41,333 - You have to take this complete view 308 00:12:41,333 --> 00:12:42,866 or you don't get the outcome you want. 309 00:12:42,866 --> 00:12:43,966 - And I think also, 310 00:12:43,966 --> 00:12:46,233 you know, these basic materials, 311 00:12:46,233 --> 00:12:48,166 they are a foundation of our economy. 312 00:12:48,166 --> 00:12:50,166 And governments understand that, 313 00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:53,266 and so governments are perfectly happy 314 00:12:53,266 --> 00:12:56,933 to distort the markets for these materials 315 00:12:56,933 --> 00:12:58,700 in all kinds of ways 316 00:12:58,700 --> 00:12:59,766 because they know 317 00:12:59,766 --> 00:13:02,233 that ensuring that the material is available 318 00:13:02,233 --> 00:13:04,166 serves a lot of social goals. 319 00:13:04,166 --> 00:13:05,533 - Right. 320 00:13:05,533 --> 00:13:06,566 - In India, 321 00:13:06,566 --> 00:13:09,666 the country that has the most subsistence farmers 322 00:13:09,666 --> 00:13:11,933 of any country in the world, 323 00:13:11,933 --> 00:13:14,600 they have huge subsidies on fertilizer. 324 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,833 The consequence of this 325 00:13:15,833 --> 00:13:18,366 is that they use way more fertilizer than they need 326 00:13:18,366 --> 00:13:20,700 and have lots of problems with fertilizer runoff. 327 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:21,500 - Yep. 328 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:23,566 - But it makes sure 329 00:13:23,566 --> 00:13:25,800 that the hundreds of millions of small scale farmers 330 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,600 are actually able to feed their families. 331 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,566 - Right. 332 00:13:28,566 --> 00:13:30,233 - And that is a more important social goal 333 00:13:30,233 --> 00:13:31,933 for the Indian government. 334 00:13:31,933 --> 00:13:33,533 And fair enough. 335 00:13:33,533 --> 00:13:35,966 And so we need to understand both. 336 00:13:35,966 --> 00:13:38,000 Of course, in these markets, 337 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,000 like in every market, 338 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,266 people and businesses respond to incentives. 339 00:13:42,266 --> 00:13:43,333 But we need to also understand 340 00:13:43,333 --> 00:13:45,466 that these markets don't actually work 341 00:13:45,466 --> 00:13:48,533 the way that the markets were used to work. 342 00:13:48,533 --> 00:13:51,433 In some ways, they're almost more like utilities 343 00:13:51,433 --> 00:13:53,600 than consumer products. - Right. 344 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,033 A lot of complex relationships in them too. 345 00:13:57,033 --> 00:14:01,366 Speaking of complex plastics and petrochemicals. 346 00:14:01,366 --> 00:14:02,333 So where do we use 347 00:14:02,333 --> 00:14:05,166 petrochemicals and plastics today? 348 00:14:05,166 --> 00:14:07,933 - Where do we not use petrochemicals and plastics? 349 00:14:07,933 --> 00:14:10,900 That might almost be an easier question to answer. 350 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:12,333 - Can you? I can't. 351 00:14:12,333 --> 00:14:13,400 I'm going through it in my head. 352 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:14,500 - Not really. 353 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,900 I mean, the modern world is completely unimaginable. 354 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:18,166 - You think of everything 355 00:14:18,166 --> 00:14:21,333 that carbon is sort of the building block of us 356 00:14:21,333 --> 00:14:23,666 and everything we see. - Right. 357 00:14:23,666 --> 00:14:28,100 - And if that carbon didn't come from a plant source, 358 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:29,733 it came from petrochemicals. 359 00:14:29,733 --> 00:14:31,566 - How much goes into the whole petrochemical 360 00:14:31,566 --> 00:14:33,833 and plastics industry? 361 00:14:33,833 --> 00:14:36,200 - Well, if you look at our overall oil demand, 362 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,633 about 14%. - Okay. 363 00:14:37,633 --> 00:14:41,500 - Or that would be about 14 million barrels of oil a day. 364 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:42,666 - Okay. - Going in. 365 00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,833 And then eight percent of the world's gas supply 366 00:14:44,833 --> 00:14:46,300 goes into petrochemicals. 367 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:48,633 And so, unlike the other products 368 00:14:48,633 --> 00:14:49,866 we've been talking about 369 00:14:49,866 --> 00:14:52,366 where they're pretty specific and there's one process, 370 00:14:52,366 --> 00:14:54,033 when we speak about petrochemicals, 371 00:14:54,033 --> 00:14:57,100 there's a whole suite of different things. 372 00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:59,833 Basically, they're all things made of carbon atoms. 373 00:14:59,833 --> 00:15:01,233 But after that, 374 00:15:01,233 --> 00:15:04,066 the similarities start to dissipate. 375 00:15:04,066 --> 00:15:05,300 [Scott] Gotcha. 376 00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:07,500 - Certainly, the chemicals industry 377 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:11,433 is incredibly diverse and complicated, 378 00:15:11,433 --> 00:15:13,066 but I also think it's important 379 00:15:13,066 --> 00:15:15,500 that we not kind of mystify it. 380 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,400 If you think about you go into a pastry shop 381 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,633 and you see a window display 382 00:15:20,633 --> 00:15:22,433 that's just an amazing variety 383 00:15:22,433 --> 00:15:23,466 of different delicious things. 384 00:15:23,466 --> 00:15:25,100 - This is not the place my head was going 385 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,066 when we're talking about plastics and petrochemicals. 386 00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:28,800 Pastry shop, don't ruin it for me here. 387 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,166 - Stay with me. - Okay. 388 00:15:30,166 --> 00:15:31,466 - You go into a pastry shop 389 00:15:31,466 --> 00:15:34,100 and you see just like an amazing variety 390 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,000 of different delicious things. 391 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,166 - Yeah. 392 00:15:37,166 --> 00:15:41,266 - But all of them are made out of flour, sugar, butter, 393 00:15:41,266 --> 00:15:43,066 and a couple of other ingredients. 394 00:15:43,066 --> 00:15:44,533 [Scott] Yum. 395 00:15:44,533 --> 00:15:45,800 - And in the same way, 396 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,666 there's an amazing variety of things 397 00:15:47,666 --> 00:15:49,766 that come out of the chemicals industry, 398 00:15:49,766 --> 00:15:50,900 - Okay. 399 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:53,333 - but they're all basically made out of like ammonia, 400 00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:55,066 ethylene, and propylene, 401 00:15:55,066 --> 00:16:00,000 which are kind of the backbone chemicals of most plastics. 402 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,833 Then benzene, toluene, xylene, 403 00:16:03,833 --> 00:16:07,933 which are collectively referred to as BTX, 404 00:16:07,933 --> 00:16:09,266 and methanol. 405 00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,100 So that's seven chemicals. 406 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:12,366 And that's basically two-thirds 407 00:16:12,366 --> 00:16:15,033 of the greenhouse gas emissions from the chemical industry. 408 00:16:15,033 --> 00:16:16,133 - Gotcha. 409 00:16:16,133 --> 00:16:17,266 Phew! 410 00:16:17,266 --> 00:16:18,833 [group laughing] 411 00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:20,700 I was thinking the stuff on my pastry 412 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,033 was gonna be BTX or something. 413 00:16:23,033 --> 00:16:25,566 - You did ask if there was anything in the modern world 414 00:16:25,566 --> 00:16:28,933 that was untouched by the petrochemicals industry, 415 00:16:28,933 --> 00:16:32,266 and I don't think there's any petrochemicals in your pastry. 416 00:16:32,266 --> 00:16:33,333 - To get there, maybe, 417 00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:34,700 - Yeah, there were some definitely. 418 00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,800 like the appliances that were used to manufacture them, 419 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,233 but you are not eating them. 420 00:16:39,233 --> 00:16:41,066 - Yeah, sure. - As long as there's not 421 00:16:41,066 --> 00:16:43,633 any sort of coloring in the frosting. 422 00:16:43,633 --> 00:16:46,233 - Right. - Or dough conditioners. 423 00:16:46,233 --> 00:16:47,633 [Scott] You never know. 424 00:16:47,633 --> 00:16:48,533 - True. 425 00:16:48,533 --> 00:16:49,733 - So these seven, 426 00:16:49,733 --> 00:16:51,900 the big seven, let's call them, 427 00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:56,366 I mean, is there a way to reduce that sector? 428 00:16:56,366 --> 00:16:58,366 - Well, I think those building blocks 429 00:16:58,366 --> 00:17:00,133 are building blocks for good reasons. 430 00:17:00,133 --> 00:17:02,933 They make sense for creating all the products that we are. 431 00:17:02,933 --> 00:17:04,466 So like the other products we've talked about, 432 00:17:04,466 --> 00:17:06,133 we need to talk about how to do them better. 433 00:17:06,133 --> 00:17:07,066 - Okay. 434 00:17:07,066 --> 00:17:09,700 - And there are some common themes here. 435 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:11,133 A lot of hydrogen 436 00:17:11,133 --> 00:17:13,600 goes into producing these various chemicals, 437 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,233 and so doing hydrogen better. - Okay. 438 00:17:16,233 --> 00:17:18,766 - A lot of the energy that goes into these 439 00:17:18,766 --> 00:17:20,900 goes into providing the heat 440 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:23,733 that makes these kinds of chemical reactions go. 441 00:17:23,733 --> 00:17:25,666 So finding ways through catalysis 442 00:17:25,666 --> 00:17:29,033 or more efficient processes to put less heat in 443 00:17:29,033 --> 00:17:31,266 is another way to do these things. 444 00:17:31,266 --> 00:17:33,966 Also, not just running these things at lower temperatures, 445 00:17:33,966 --> 00:17:35,733 but how to get the temperatures you need 446 00:17:35,733 --> 00:17:37,300 without burning something. 447 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:40,566 - So the final products, 448 00:17:40,566 --> 00:17:41,733 most of the final products 449 00:17:41,733 --> 00:17:43,400 that come out of the chemicals industry 450 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,433 are carbon-based products. 451 00:17:45,433 --> 00:17:46,433 So that means 452 00:17:46,433 --> 00:17:49,933 that when you put your carbon-based fossil fuel 453 00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:51,633 into your chemical plant, 454 00:17:51,633 --> 00:17:53,866 some of that you're burning for energy 455 00:17:53,866 --> 00:17:56,233 and you get CO2 that ends up in the atmosphere. 456 00:17:56,233 --> 00:17:58,900 But as much of it as possible, 457 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:02,000 you are actually taking the atoms from the fuel 458 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,000 and putting those atoms in the product. 459 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:10,033 And so the fuel is both the feedstock and the energy source. 460 00:18:10,033 --> 00:18:13,500 On the feedstock side, 461 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,200 you can say, okay, 462 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,700 if we keep using fossil fuels for our feedstock, 463 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:21,400 can we actually figure out a way 464 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,633 to get basically a hundred percent yield from our feedstock 465 00:18:25,633 --> 00:18:27,933 so that 100% of the carbon 466 00:18:27,933 --> 00:18:32,066 that starts out in the fossil fuel ends up in the product. 467 00:18:32,066 --> 00:18:34,666 That's a thing we don't know how to do yet. 468 00:18:34,666 --> 00:18:36,033 Is that a thing we could do? 469 00:18:36,033 --> 00:18:38,000 If that's not a thing we can do, 470 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,333 then we're gonna have to capture some of that carbon. 471 00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:44,000 Or we're gonna have to take the carbon 472 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,133 from someplace that's not a fossil fuel. 473 00:18:46,133 --> 00:18:47,066 - Right. 474 00:18:47,066 --> 00:18:49,333 - And our options there are basically two, 475 00:18:49,333 --> 00:18:51,333 and they're both extremely expensive. 476 00:18:51,333 --> 00:18:52,333 [Scott] Okay. 477 00:18:52,333 --> 00:18:54,500 - Option one is we can take it from biomass. 478 00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:56,666 [Scott] Right. - And option two 479 00:18:56,666 --> 00:19:00,900 is that we can take it from carbon that we've already used. 480 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,933 - Right. 481 00:19:01,933 --> 00:19:07,666 - Which can be either trash or climate trash, 482 00:19:07,666 --> 00:19:08,966 which is to say we can try 483 00:19:08,966 --> 00:19:11,266 and collect some carbon from the atmosphere and use that. 484 00:19:11,266 --> 00:19:12,233 - Yeah. 485 00:19:12,233 --> 00:19:14,500 - It certainly can be done theoretically. 486 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:16,166 Let's just say that -- 487 00:19:16,166 --> 00:19:17,133 [Scott] It's expensive. 488 00:19:17,133 --> 00:19:19,666 - it is expensive in dollars, 489 00:19:19,666 --> 00:19:22,400 and it is extremely expensive in energy. 490 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,266 - Yeah. 491 00:19:23,266 --> 00:19:25,100 Well, and the point on that 492 00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:26,600 is sort of to go back to 493 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,133 there are some things that we know 494 00:19:28,133 --> 00:19:29,233 we can lower the costs on, 495 00:19:29,233 --> 00:19:30,366 we know we can do them better, 496 00:19:30,366 --> 00:19:32,433 we know that we can make them less expensive. 497 00:19:32,433 --> 00:19:33,566 But in many of these processes, 498 00:19:33,566 --> 00:19:35,766 we're talking about the laws of thermodynamics. 499 00:19:35,766 --> 00:19:38,533 They, by their nature, take a lot of energy 500 00:19:38,533 --> 00:19:40,366 and there's nothing we can do about that. 501 00:19:40,366 --> 00:19:41,700 And then another challenge 502 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:45,500 with using carbohydrates from crops or whatever 503 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:47,766 is that we've got a lot of different uses for those. 504 00:19:47,766 --> 00:19:49,666 You know, we've talked about the need for them for food 505 00:19:49,666 --> 00:19:50,966 and our use of fertilizer, 506 00:19:50,966 --> 00:19:53,300 we've talked about building materials. 507 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:56,500 We don't wanna use all our land use industrially. 508 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,800 And so I understand our need to get away from fossil fuels 509 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,766 and especially using fossil fuels as fuels. 510 00:20:02,766 --> 00:20:04,633 But I personally think they're gonna be with us 511 00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:07,333 for a very long time. 512 00:20:07,333 --> 00:20:08,400 - And it's not all bad. 513 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,200 - As raw materials. - Right. 514 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,033 Would you agree or not agree, 515 00:20:12,033 --> 00:20:15,333 or too simple, 516 00:20:15,333 --> 00:20:19,033 that these things aren't all created equal? 517 00:20:19,033 --> 00:20:23,733 You know, bio, coal, oil, natural gas. 518 00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:25,700 If we can get toward this end of the thing, 519 00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:28,633 aren't we better off than this end? 520 00:20:28,633 --> 00:20:30,833 - My standard is always 521 00:20:30,833 --> 00:20:34,333 how much greenhouse gas ends up in the atmosphere. 522 00:20:34,333 --> 00:20:36,166 From that perspective, 523 00:20:36,166 --> 00:20:39,033 coal is certainly worse than methane, 524 00:20:39,033 --> 00:20:40,700 but methane's still pretty bad, 525 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:43,166 particularly 'cause methane is itself a greenhouse gas. 526 00:20:43,166 --> 00:20:45,433 And you are entirely correct, 527 00:20:45,433 --> 00:20:47,766 that from an energy density perspective, 528 00:20:47,766 --> 00:20:52,200 biomass is far inferior to oil and gas, 529 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,233 but it has the advantage 530 00:20:54,233 --> 00:20:57,233 that it is not carbon that we dug out of the ground 531 00:20:57,233 --> 00:21:00,366 and added to the climate system. 532 00:21:00,366 --> 00:21:02,266 The hard line for me 533 00:21:02,266 --> 00:21:06,066 is that we need to get to a place pretty quickly 534 00:21:06,066 --> 00:21:09,000 where there's no additional greenhouse gases 535 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,533 being added to the atmosphere. 536 00:21:10,533 --> 00:21:11,533 - Right. Okay. 537 00:21:11,533 --> 00:21:12,633 - In terms of carbon, 538 00:21:12,633 --> 00:21:15,000 you have to think about it in terms of timing. 539 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,700 And when you think about biofuels, 540 00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,333 that carbon was taken up by the plant recently 541 00:21:19,333 --> 00:21:22,933 and it will be released within our lifetimes. 542 00:21:22,933 --> 00:21:23,833 - Yeah. 543 00:21:23,833 --> 00:21:25,500 - When we reach back into time 544 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,400 for those ancient plants that were stored underground, 545 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,533 we're getting out of today's carbon cycle 546 00:21:30,533 --> 00:21:33,100 and putting new carbon into the atmosphere. 547 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:35,166 So we wanna get away from that. 548 00:21:35,166 --> 00:21:36,600 But with all these solutions, 549 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,266 there's really not a free lunch. 550 00:21:38,266 --> 00:21:39,566 [Scott] Right. 551 00:21:39,566 --> 00:21:40,633 - And land use, I think, 552 00:21:40,633 --> 00:21:41,933 is one of the really important places 553 00:21:41,933 --> 00:21:44,133 where the rubber meets the road. 554 00:21:44,133 --> 00:21:45,633 Biomass is attractive 555 00:21:45,633 --> 00:21:49,000 because we're working within today's carbon cycle. 556 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,266 - Yeah. 557 00:21:50,266 --> 00:21:52,766 - But the trick is, is when you start using a lot of biomass 558 00:21:52,766 --> 00:21:54,366 for different things, 559 00:21:54,366 --> 00:21:56,766 you get to the point where we don't have the land to do it. 560 00:21:56,766 --> 00:21:57,866 - Right. 561 00:21:57,866 --> 00:22:00,433 - And so that's why I start thinking about things 562 00:22:00,433 --> 00:22:03,233 like renewable electricity, 563 00:22:03,233 --> 00:22:06,166 where we're staying within today's sunlight cycle 564 00:22:06,166 --> 00:22:08,366 to generate electricity. 565 00:22:08,366 --> 00:22:11,200 Things like carbon capture and storage 566 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,366 when we have to use fossil carbon 567 00:22:13,366 --> 00:22:16,966 but we can prevent it from going into the atmosphere 568 00:22:16,966 --> 00:22:19,933 and try to find ways to stay within our carbon budget, 569 00:22:19,933 --> 00:22:22,233 but also stay within the budgets for other things, 570 00:22:22,233 --> 00:22:24,066 especially land use. - Interesting. 571 00:22:24,066 --> 00:22:28,100 You know, this has been fantastic dialogue. 572 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:30,900 I want to give you both a chance to just, 573 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:32,366 you know, final thoughts, 574 00:22:32,366 --> 00:22:36,333 next steps that you see? 575 00:22:36,333 --> 00:22:39,866 - I would say that the industrial sector 576 00:22:39,866 --> 00:22:41,500 broadly considered, 577 00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:46,133 this is responsible for a third of greenhouse gas emissions. 578 00:22:46,133 --> 00:22:48,166 It's the largest single source 579 00:22:48,166 --> 00:22:50,800 of greenhouse gas emissions on Earth. 580 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,133 But we don't talk about it that much. 581 00:22:53,133 --> 00:22:54,500 Where does it come from? 582 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:55,700 How do we make it? 583 00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:57,100 How can we do that better? 584 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:58,400 How can we do that in a way 585 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,800 that not only doesn't it harm the climate, 586 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,733 but doesn't harm the air, the land, the water, 587 00:23:04,733 --> 00:23:06,800 that's healthier for everybody. 588 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,900 I just hope that the audience of this conversation 589 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,700 will take some time and reflect on, 590 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,766 where does all of the stuff around me come from 591 00:23:17,766 --> 00:23:19,600 and are there better places, 592 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,600 are there better ways that we can do that? 593 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,033 - And can we use less stuff, 594 00:23:24,033 --> 00:23:25,766 especially in the U.S., 595 00:23:25,766 --> 00:23:28,333 we're so used to using stuff. 596 00:23:28,333 --> 00:23:30,000 That would have such a positive effect 597 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,600 on everything we've talked about today. 598 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:32,733 - Absolutely. 599 00:23:32,733 --> 00:23:34,733 It's a good news, bad news situation. 600 00:23:34,733 --> 00:23:37,400 It's always bad news to be clueless, 601 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,166 but the good news is 602 00:23:39,166 --> 00:23:42,400 that it means that there's a lot of really easy ways to improve 603 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,166 because we haven't even been trying. 604 00:23:44,166 --> 00:23:45,533 [group laughing] 605 00:23:45,533 --> 00:23:47,200 - Samantha, final thoughts from you? 606 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,266 - Sure, I think I'd like to come out 607 00:23:49,266 --> 00:23:50,966 with something that's somewhat optimistic. 608 00:23:50,966 --> 00:23:54,166 And so we've a lot about the challenges of these industries, 609 00:23:54,166 --> 00:23:55,766 the fact that they're low margin, 610 00:23:55,766 --> 00:23:57,533 the fact that they're very competitive, 611 00:23:57,533 --> 00:24:00,333 but we also keep bringing out the fact 612 00:24:00,333 --> 00:24:02,833 that making changes wouldn't add that much 613 00:24:02,833 --> 00:24:04,766 to the cost of a final product. 614 00:24:04,766 --> 00:24:07,766 That's a really good argument for policy 615 00:24:07,766 --> 00:24:09,433 to move in the right direction. 616 00:24:09,433 --> 00:24:12,733 What I hear from all this is that we can afford to do this, 617 00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:14,533 we just have to want to. 618 00:24:14,533 --> 00:24:16,333 - Yeah, that's a neat thought. 619 00:24:17,433 --> 00:24:19,333 I think we do, 620 00:24:19,333 --> 00:24:20,366 in my opinion, 621 00:24:20,366 --> 00:24:22,433 I think we do young people a disservice almost 622 00:24:22,433 --> 00:24:25,533 in that we have to realize the complexities 623 00:24:25,533 --> 00:24:27,133 and then we will solve them. 624 00:24:27,133 --> 00:24:29,166 Young people are smart. - Yeah. 625 00:24:29,166 --> 00:24:30,666 - They've gotta understand 626 00:24:30,666 --> 00:24:33,300 the relationships that go across all these. 627 00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:35,733 So I really appreciate that from you. 628 00:24:35,733 --> 00:24:37,633 Well, thank you both. - Thank you very much. 629 00:24:37,633 --> 00:24:38,833 - I've learned a tremendous amount. 630 00:24:38,833 --> 00:24:40,033 [Samantha] Oh, my pleasure. - I just 631 00:24:40,033 --> 00:24:41,266 ran outta ink scribbling here. 632 00:24:41,266 --> 00:24:43,400 But this has been a wonderful discussion 633 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,200 on how to decarbonize industry. 634 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,133 Scott Tinker for "Energy Switch." 635 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:50,500 Fertilizer is made from ammonia, 636 00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:54,033 which is made from natural gas, coal, or oil. 637 00:24:54,033 --> 00:24:56,666 We use those fuels for their hydrogen, 638 00:24:56,666 --> 00:25:00,066 but that releases their carbon as CO2. 639 00:25:00,066 --> 00:25:04,300 The first solution is to use fertilizer more efficiently. 640 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:06,200 Over-fertilizing has many negative 641 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,466 local environmental impacts. 642 00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:12,200 So carefully fertilizing has many benefits. 643 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,433 As with cement, 644 00:25:13,433 --> 00:25:16,833 we could use hydrogen to produce the ammonia for fertilizer, 645 00:25:16,833 --> 00:25:18,133 with the same caveat 646 00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:21,633 that all affordable hydrogen production today emits CO2. 647 00:25:22,366 --> 00:25:24,500 As does petrochemical production. 648 00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:26,166 When we burn fuels for heat 649 00:25:26,166 --> 00:25:29,433 and process their carbon into products like plastic. 650 00:25:29,433 --> 00:25:32,200 Alternative sources of heat and or carbon 651 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,266 like biomass or atmospheric CO2 might be feasible 652 00:25:36,266 --> 00:25:38,933 but are prohibitively expensive. 653 00:25:38,933 --> 00:25:41,500 Overall, the entire industrial sector 654 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:45,166 creates one-third of global greenhouse gas emissions. 655 00:25:45,166 --> 00:25:47,400 Efficiency, fuel switching, 656 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,566 and innovation 657 00:25:48,566 --> 00:25:51,000 can make a real difference here. 658 00:25:52,766 --> 00:26:02,833 ♪ 659 00:26:02,833 --> 00:26:11,833 ♪ 660 00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:19,833 ♪ 661 00:26:20,733 --> 00:26:22,066 [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 662 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:25,200 was provided in part by 663 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,700 The University of Texas at Austin, 664 00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:30,133 leading research in energy and the environment 665 00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,033 for a better tomorrow. 666 00:26:32,033 --> 00:26:35,566 What starts here changes the world.