WEBVTT 00:00.500 --> 00:02.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 00:02.233 --> 00:04.833 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% part two of Decarbonizing Industry. 00:04.833 --> 00:07.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% This time looking at fertilizer and petrochemicals. 00:07.966 --> 00:11.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Carbon is the building block of everything we see. 00:11.666 --> 00:16.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And if that carbon didn't come from a plant source, 00:16.100 --> 00:17.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% it came from petrochemicals. 00:17.900 --> 00:21.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% About 14 million barrels of oil a day. 00:21.500 --> 00:23.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And then eight percent of the world's gas supply 00:23.566 --> 00:25.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% goes into petrochemicals. 00:25.333 --> 00:29.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Right now, there's a lot of wasted fertilizer. 00:29.066 --> 00:33.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If we used our fertilizer more precisely, 00:33.266 --> 00:35.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% it would reduce the greenhouse gases 00:35.166 --> 00:37.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and it would make the local environmental conditions 00:37.600 --> 00:38.900 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% much better. 00:39.233 --> 00:40.933 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 00:40.933 --> 00:43.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Decarbonizing Heavy Industry Part Two. 00:45.833 --> 00:47.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 00:47.200 --> 00:50.300 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 00:50.300 --> 00:52.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% The University of Texas at Austin, 00:52.833 --> 00:55.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% leading research in energy and the environment 00:55.166 --> 00:57.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 00:57.166 --> 00:59.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world. 01:02.133 --> 01:03.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [upbeat music] 01:03.366 --> 01:04.600 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - I'm Scott Tinker, 01:04.600 --> 01:06.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and I'm an energy scientist. 01:06.600 --> 01:08.300 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% I work in the field, 01:08.300 --> 01:09.433 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% lead research, 01:09.433 --> 01:10.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% speak around the world, 01:10.800 --> 01:12.233 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% write articles, 01:12.233 --> 01:14.833 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and make films about energy. 01:14.833 --> 01:17.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% This show brings together leading experts 01:17.533 --> 01:20.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% on vital topics in energy and climate. 01:20.833 --> 01:22.633 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% They may have different perspectives, 01:22.633 --> 01:25.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but my goal is to learn, and illuminate, 01:25.666 --> 01:29.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 01:29.900 --> 01:32.266 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 01:33.433 --> 01:35.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% In part one of this discussion, 01:35.133 --> 01:38.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% we heard ideas to decarbonize cement and steel, 01:38.233 --> 01:40.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% two industries that built the modern world. 01:40.866 --> 01:43.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We'll conclude with a look at fertilizer, 01:43.300 --> 01:46.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% which has made modern agriculture possible, 01:46.166 --> 01:48.400 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and petrochemicals and plastic, 01:48.400 --> 01:51.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% which today go into nearly every product. 01:51.133 --> 01:53.100 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% These two industries are vital 01:53.100 --> 01:55.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to the success of global societies, 01:55.433 --> 01:59.300 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% yet produce a large portion of global greenhouse emissions. 01:59.300 --> 02:02.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We'll look at ideas to reduce that again with, 02:02.566 --> 02:04.200 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Samantha Gross is the director 02:04.200 --> 02:06.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% of Energy Security and Climate Initiative 02:06.566 --> 02:08.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% at Brookings Institute, 02:08.133 --> 02:09.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and formerly the director 02:09.433 --> 02:12.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the Office of Climate and Clean Energy at the DOE. 02:13.300 --> 02:14.466 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Rebecca Dell. 02:14.466 --> 02:16.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% She's the senior director for industry 02:16.366 --> 02:18.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% at the ClimateWorks Foundation, 02:18.133 --> 02:20.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% formerly at the U.S. Department of Energy 02:20.233 --> 02:22.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and the Scripps Oceanographic Institute. 02:23.833 --> 02:25.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Next on "Energy Switch," 02:25.300 --> 02:28.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% part two of our look at potential solutions 02:28.066 --> 02:29.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to decarbonize industry. 02:30.633 --> 02:31.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Let's get started. 02:32.666 --> 02:34.033 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Fertilizers. 02:34.033 --> 02:36.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% How much do we use today globally, 02:36.033 --> 02:37.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and why is it important? 02:38.433 --> 02:42.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - The key ingredient in most fertilizers is ammonia. 02:42.433 --> 02:46.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% That is the single largest production chemical 02:46.266 --> 02:48.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% of any chemical in the world. 02:48.166 --> 02:52.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% We make almost 200 million tons a year of ammonia, 02:52.266 --> 02:55.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and about 70% of that goes into fertilizer. 02:55.533 --> 02:58.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Fertilizers have helped to feed the world. 02:58.933 --> 03:03.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Yeah, so it's kind of an amazing fact 03:03.966 --> 03:06.566 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% that if you were born 03:06.566 --> 03:09.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% any time starting around the mid-1980s, 03:09.666 --> 03:11.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% then on average, 03:11.733 --> 03:16.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% at least half of the nitrogen atoms in your body 03:16.366 --> 03:19.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% were put there through the Haber-Bosch process 03:19.233 --> 03:20.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% at an ammonia factory. 03:20.933 --> 03:21.966 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Wow. 03:21.966 --> 03:24.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Our bodies are physically made 03:24.166 --> 03:28.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% out of the atoms that went into the fertilizer. 03:28.733 --> 03:29.933 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 03:29.933 --> 03:31.733 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% So what is ammonia? 03:31.733 --> 03:34.866 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Ammonia chemically is NH3. 03:34.866 --> 03:36.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% It's made of nitrogen and hydrogen. 03:36.800 --> 03:37.800 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Okay. 03:37.800 --> 03:39.100 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - And the Haber-Bosch process, 03:39.100 --> 03:42.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% which is how we've been making ammonia forever, 03:42.233 --> 03:45.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% basically takes nitrogen out of the air 03:45.400 --> 03:47.233 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% and combines it 03:47.233 --> 03:50.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% with hydrogen that you have gotten from somewhere. 03:50.100 --> 03:51.866 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% - Okay. - Chemically. 03:51.866 --> 03:54.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we're sort of back to, how do you make hydrogen? 03:54.100 --> 03:55.033 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 03:55.033 --> 03:56.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - The reason why ammonia production 03:56.566 --> 03:59.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is a large emitter of greenhouse gases 03:59.100 --> 04:01.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is because it uses hydrogen. 04:01.433 --> 04:02.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Today, that hydrogen comes 04:02.533 --> 04:04.766 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% from splitting molecules of natural gas 04:04.766 --> 04:07.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% into their component, carbon and hydrogen, 04:07.766 --> 04:09.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% with the carbon pairing up with oxygen 04:09.700 --> 04:11.133 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% and going off as CO2. 04:11.133 --> 04:12.166 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Okay. 04:12.166 --> 04:13.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - And then you take the hydrogen off 04:13.400 --> 04:14.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and use it to make ammonia. 04:14.533 --> 04:16.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Here in the United States, 04:16.166 --> 04:20.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% we mostly make that hydrogen from methane. 04:20.533 --> 04:22.566 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% But in other countries, 04:22.566 --> 04:25.366 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% they use other fossil fuels. 04:25.366 --> 04:28.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Particularly in China, they use coal. 04:28.066 --> 04:31.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so you react coal with water 04:31.800 --> 04:33.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to get the hydrogen out of the water-- 04:33.566 --> 04:35.300 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% - Oh, okay. - and emit the CO2. 04:35.300 --> 04:38.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That process is three or four times as much CO2 04:38.133 --> 04:40.066 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% per unit of ammonia. 04:40.066 --> 04:42.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - As splitting methane. - As splitting methane. 04:42.033 --> 04:43.266 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Interesting. - Yeah. 04:43.266 --> 04:44.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - And then in other countries, they use oil 04:44.733 --> 04:45.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to make ammonia. 04:45.933 --> 04:48.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% It's just a matter of what fuel is available, 04:48.066 --> 04:49.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% cheapest locally. 04:49.466 --> 04:50.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - For your hydrogen. Right. 04:50.700 --> 04:52.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So decarbonizing that is a challenge. 04:52.900 --> 04:56.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I mean, are there changes in fertilizers that we can do 04:56.366 --> 05:00.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% to start to decarbonize the fertilizer sector? 05:00.733 --> 05:01.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% How do we go about it? 05:01.800 --> 05:02.866 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Sure. 05:02.866 --> 05:04.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I mean, as we've been talking about 05:04.333 --> 05:06.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% with some other materials, 05:06.300 --> 05:07.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the first thing we can do 05:07.666 --> 05:10.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is we can use fertilizer more efficiently. 05:10.500 --> 05:14.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Right now, there's a lot of wasted fertilizer, 05:14.333 --> 05:17.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and that has a lot of local environmental problems 05:17.766 --> 05:18.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that it creates. 05:18.900 --> 05:20.833 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% It runs off into the water, 05:20.833 --> 05:23.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it can contaminate ground water, 05:23.733 --> 05:28.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it can also be converted into other greenhouse gases 05:28.000 --> 05:32.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that will then be emitted from agricultural fields. 05:32.100 --> 05:37.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So if we used our fertilizer more precisely, 05:37.033 --> 05:40.300 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% it would reduce the greenhouse gases both coming and going, 05:40.300 --> 05:42.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and it would make the local environmental conditions 05:42.766 --> 05:44.200 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% much better. - Right. 05:44.200 --> 05:45.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - There are some big questions. 05:45.533 --> 05:47.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% How much reduction is actually available 05:47.833 --> 05:50.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% without reducing our agricultural yields? 05:50.600 --> 05:53.666 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And how do we do that 05:53.666 --> 05:56.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in countries where they don't have access 05:56.433 --> 06:00.100 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% to like sophisticated precision agriculture technologies, 06:00.100 --> 06:03.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and, you know, what are there things that they can do? 06:03.133 --> 06:04.266 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Gotcha. 06:04.266 --> 06:05.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - You talk about runoff. 06:05.733 --> 06:08.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This gets into waterways, it flows into the oceans. 06:08.366 --> 06:11.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And what happens is that leftover fertilizer 06:11.066 --> 06:14.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% fertilizes those waterways and the oceans as well. 06:14.333 --> 06:17.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And so you get an overgrowth of algae. 06:17.466 --> 06:20.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So it's taking up the fertilizer and it's growing more, 06:20.700 --> 06:23.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% which then soaks up all the oxygen, 06:23.133 --> 06:25.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and so you have areas where they're full of algae 06:25.233 --> 06:27.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but where fish can't live 06:27.200 --> 06:28.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% because there's not enough oxygen for the fish. 06:28.666 --> 06:29.833 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 06:29.833 --> 06:32.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Another interesting area that's more about human health 06:32.466 --> 06:35.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is you get runoff in the form of nitrates. 06:35.733 --> 06:39.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And nitrates are really bad for human babies. 06:39.266 --> 06:41.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So it's not just about greenhouse gases 06:41.533 --> 06:44.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% or even mostly about greenhouse gases. 06:44.000 --> 06:46.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The greenhouse gas benefits are almost a side benefit 06:46.533 --> 06:48.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to all the other benefits 06:48.133 --> 06:49.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that we can get from more efficient use. 06:49.633 --> 06:51.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Yeah, I love that you're talking about 06:51.133 --> 06:52.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the broader environment. 06:52.400 --> 06:54.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I mean, we were talking about decarbonization here today, 06:54.766 --> 06:55.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that's our topic, - Yeah. 06:55.933 --> 06:58.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - but the land, the air and the water matter a lot. 06:58.700 --> 07:02.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Yeah. And different people have very different ideas 07:02.600 --> 07:05.800 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% about how much efficiency is available. 07:05.800 --> 07:09.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And so you'll find estimates of anywhere between, 07:09.300 --> 07:12.733 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% we could reduce fertilizer use by 20%, 07:12.733 --> 07:15.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% up to, we could reduce fertilizer use by 90%. 07:15.933 --> 07:17.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - That's quite a spread. 07:17.266 --> 07:18.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - It's quite a spread, yeah. 07:18.666 --> 07:20.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We know that there is a significant 07:20.466 --> 07:22.333 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% improvement available 07:22.333 --> 07:25.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but how much of it is achievable? 07:25.166 --> 07:26.966 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% I don't think we know. 07:26.966 --> 07:30.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, are there some non-ammonia options 07:30.533 --> 07:32.066 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% to fertilizers? 07:32.066 --> 07:33.266 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Sure. 07:33.266 --> 07:35.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Or non, that don't have the CO2-equivalent challenges? 07:35.966 --> 07:37.066 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 07:37.066 --> 07:40.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% There are things like biotechnology interventions 07:40.666 --> 07:44.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that make it possible for a wider variety of plants 07:44.900 --> 07:47.933 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% to use nitrogen from the atmosphere. 07:47.933 --> 07:50.733 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Also, other forms of nitrogen 07:50.733 --> 07:53.700 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% like nitrates instead of ammonia. 07:53.700 --> 07:58.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Probably the optimal pathway would be some combination 07:58.766 --> 08:02.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of make the ammonia more cleanly 08:02.200 --> 08:04.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and use these other types of interventions 08:04.100 --> 08:06.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% all in a balanced way. 08:06.166 --> 08:08.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We as humans don't have a great history 08:08.900 --> 08:10.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% of following optimal pathways. 08:10.800 --> 08:12.066 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 08:12.066 --> 08:13.533 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - We don't usually, 08:13.533 --> 08:14.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - I think you just describe my life. 08:14.766 --> 08:16.466 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 08:16.466 --> 08:19.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% That's not a thing that we're usually able to pull off. 08:19.966 --> 08:22.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Not an optimization process here for sure. 08:22.000 --> 08:26.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - And so even if we achieve significant reductions 08:26.333 --> 08:29.033 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in the climate impacts, 08:29.033 --> 08:31.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% it's probably gonna be a very messy process. 08:31.266 --> 08:32.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Interesting. - Yeah. 08:32.400 --> 08:33.566 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% And I'll add, 08:33.566 --> 08:36.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% for small farmers or subsistence farmers, 08:36.066 --> 08:38.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% there are completely organic ways 08:38.400 --> 08:40.633 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to use less fertilizer as well. 08:40.633 --> 08:43.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Certain kinds of plants fix nitrogen out of the air. 08:43.633 --> 08:45.466 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% They have the ability to do that, 08:45.466 --> 08:47.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% so they actually make the soil better. 08:47.566 --> 08:49.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Legumes are good nitrogen fixers. 08:49.766 --> 08:52.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% You can rotate crops that help to fix nitrogen 08:52.033 --> 08:53.366 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% and improve the soil. 08:53.366 --> 08:56.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You can plant cover crops that fix nitrogen. 08:56.300 --> 08:59.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And so there are both high and low tech solutions 08:59.533 --> 09:00.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that make a lot of sense. 09:00.933 --> 09:02.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - That's a great point, Samantha. 09:02.833 --> 09:06.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Does hydrogen play a role in that process? 09:06.466 --> 09:07.833 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% - Yeah. - Bring us back there. 09:07.833 --> 09:08.933 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Sure. 09:08.933 --> 09:13.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So if we are successful in these efficiency efforts, 09:13.500 --> 09:16.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that will reduce the amount of ammonia that we need, 09:16.200 --> 09:19.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% it will not eliminate the need for ammonia. 09:19.333 --> 09:21.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Basically, all of the energy use, 09:21.533 --> 09:24.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% almost all of the energy use in that process 09:24.433 --> 09:26.300 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% comes from making the hydrogen. 09:26.300 --> 09:29.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so from the production side, 09:29.100 --> 09:33.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% most of the problem is can we get enough clean hydrogen. 09:33.666 --> 09:38.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think ammonia is a particularly stark example 09:38.266 --> 09:40.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of something that you see in a lot of heavy industry, 09:40.900 --> 09:44.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% which is that there are enormous economies of scale. 09:44.933 --> 09:47.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% So almost all of the ammonia 09:47.233 --> 09:50.433 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that's used by every farmer everywhere in the world 09:50.433 --> 09:52.733 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% is made in about 300 factories. 09:52.733 --> 09:54.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Three hundred? - Yeah. 09:54.000 --> 09:56.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - It's funny, you think about there only being 300 factories 09:56.866 --> 09:58.766 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and how concentrated that is. 09:58.766 --> 09:59.766 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% On the other hand, 09:59.766 --> 10:02.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's only 300 factories that we need to tackle 10:02.066 --> 10:03.866 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to deal with this problem. - That's a good point. 10:03.866 --> 10:06.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - And as the larger hydrogen economy develops, 10:06.500 --> 10:10.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there will be more clean hydrogen available to those. 10:10.133 --> 10:12.666 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% But those 300 ammonia factories 10:12.666 --> 10:16.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% could be kickstarters for hydrogen demand 10:16.033 --> 10:18.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in the areas where they are located. 10:18.233 --> 10:20.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I think that could really be an opportunity. 10:20.133 --> 10:21.366 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - That's interesting. 10:21.366 --> 10:22.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% The end cost to fertilizer. 10:22.866 --> 10:24.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Back to fertilizer a little bit, 10:24.133 --> 10:28.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how does making hydrogen differently affect the cost? 10:28.366 --> 10:32.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% How much is the cost of fertilizer to farmers? 10:33.433 --> 10:35.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, those are great questions. 10:35.566 --> 10:41.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So, it can be a significant cost for a farmer, 10:41.933 --> 10:46.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but it's not a significant portion of the cost of the food. 10:46.900 --> 10:48.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% You're not gonna see that difference 10:48.266 --> 10:49.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in your grocery store. 10:49.800 --> 10:50.833 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 10:50.833 --> 10:53.433 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - But farmers, 10:53.433 --> 10:56.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% like people who own factories, 10:56.233 --> 10:59.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% are often operating on very narrow margins 10:59.233 --> 11:03.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% because the price of ammonia is very, very closely tied 11:03.900 --> 11:07.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to the price of the fossil fuel that it's made out of. 11:07.000 --> 11:09.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Here in the U.S., gas, 11:09.700 --> 11:11.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% those prices can be very volatile. 11:11.733 --> 11:13.633 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% - Yeah. - And so in some ways, 11:13.633 --> 11:15.566 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% the volatility of the price 11:15.566 --> 11:18.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% can be as much of a source of difficulty 11:18.033 --> 11:21.033 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% as the absolute level of the price. 11:21.033 --> 11:22.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And so one of the things that people are thinking about 11:22.900 --> 11:28.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is that can we make the clean alternatives 11:28.933 --> 11:31.300 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% to conventional ammonia production 11:31.300 --> 11:34.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% have some additional price stability in them. 11:34.466 --> 11:35.800 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 11:35.800 --> 11:39.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - One of the most damaging consequences 11:39.233 --> 11:43.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of these dynamics of this potential volatility 11:43.166 --> 11:45.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% since Russia invaded Ukraine. 11:45.000 --> 11:46.400 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Yes, huge. 11:46.400 --> 11:47.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Because Russia, 11:47.733 --> 11:49.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% because it has so much fossil fuels, 11:49.800 --> 11:55.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% it's one of the world's leading producers of fertilizer. 11:55.433 --> 11:59.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when that fertilizer left the global market, 11:59.266 --> 12:03.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% it caused crazy price spikes all over the world. 12:03.466 --> 12:06.100 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And those were particularly damaging 12:06.100 --> 12:08.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to farmers in low income countries 12:08.333 --> 12:11.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that did not have domestic production of fertilizer. 12:11.666 --> 12:12.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Yes, absolutely. 12:12.833 --> 12:14.866 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% - That were entirely dependent on international trade. 12:14.866 --> 12:17.666 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, I really appreciate you both, 12:17.666 --> 12:20.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the way you're sharing and explaining. 12:20.466 --> 12:23.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Quite often, when we hear somebody selling something, 12:23.833 --> 12:26.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% you hear about this thing, it's completely factual. 12:26.300 --> 12:27.200 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - It's great. 12:27.200 --> 12:28.866 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - But it's not factually complete, 12:28.866 --> 12:30.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which, there's a big difference. 12:30.900 --> 12:32.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And you're sharing kind of what I would describe 12:32.566 --> 12:34.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% as more factually complete. 12:34.366 --> 12:36.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - And if you don't think about it that way, 12:36.566 --> 12:38.266 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% change doesn't happen. 12:38.266 --> 12:39.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% [Scott] Yeah. Yeah. - Yeah. 12:39.233 --> 12:41.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - You have to take this complete view 12:41.333 --> 12:42.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% or you don't get the outcome you want. 12:42.866 --> 12:43.966 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - And I think also, 12:43.966 --> 12:46.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, these basic materials, 12:46.233 --> 12:48.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% they are a foundation of our economy. 12:48.166 --> 12:50.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And governments understand that, 12:50.166 --> 12:53.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and so governments are perfectly happy 12:53.266 --> 12:56.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% to distort the markets for these materials 12:56.933 --> 12:58.700 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% in all kinds of ways 12:58.700 --> 12:59.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% because they know 12:59.766 --> 13:02.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that ensuring that the material is available 13:02.233 --> 13:04.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% serves a lot of social goals. 13:04.166 --> 13:05.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 13:05.533 --> 13:06.566 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - In India, 13:06.566 --> 13:09.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the country that has the most subsistence farmers 13:09.666 --> 13:11.933 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% of any country in the world, 13:11.933 --> 13:14.600 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% they have huge subsidies on fertilizer. 13:14.600 --> 13:15.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% The consequence of this 13:15.833 --> 13:18.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that they use way more fertilizer than they need 13:18.366 --> 13:20.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and have lots of problems with fertilizer runoff. 13:20.700 --> 13:21.500 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yep. 13:21.500 --> 13:23.566 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - But it makes sure 13:23.566 --> 13:25.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that the hundreds of millions of small scale farmers 13:25.800 --> 13:27.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% are actually able to feed their families. 13:27.600 --> 13:28.566 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 13:28.566 --> 13:30.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - And that is a more important social goal 13:30.233 --> 13:31.933 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% for the Indian government. 13:31.933 --> 13:33.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And fair enough. 13:33.533 --> 13:35.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And so we need to understand both. 13:35.966 --> 13:38.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Of course, in these markets, 13:38.000 --> 13:40.000 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% like in every market, 13:40.000 --> 13:42.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% people and businesses respond to incentives. 13:42.266 --> 13:43.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% But we need to also understand 13:43.333 --> 13:45.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that these markets don't actually work 13:45.466 --> 13:48.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the way that the markets were used to work. 13:48.533 --> 13:51.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% In some ways, they're almost more like utilities 13:51.433 --> 13:53.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% than consumer products. - Right. 13:53.600 --> 13:57.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% A lot of complex relationships in them too. 13:57.033 --> 14:01.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Speaking of complex plastics and petrochemicals. 14:01.366 --> 14:02.333 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% So where do we use 14:02.333 --> 14:05.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% petrochemicals and plastics today? 14:05.166 --> 14:07.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Where do we not use petrochemicals and plastics? 14:07.933 --> 14:10.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% That might almost be an easier question to answer. 14:10.900 --> 14:12.333 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Can you? I can't. 14:12.333 --> 14:13.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm going through it in my head. 14:13.400 --> 14:14.500 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Not really. 14:14.500 --> 14:16.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, the modern world is completely unimaginable. 14:16.900 --> 14:18.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - You think of everything 14:18.166 --> 14:21.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that carbon is sort of the building block of us 14:21.333 --> 14:23.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and everything we see. - Right. 14:23.666 --> 14:28.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - And if that carbon didn't come from a plant source, 14:28.100 --> 14:29.733 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% it came from petrochemicals. 14:29.733 --> 14:31.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - How much goes into the whole petrochemical 14:31.566 --> 14:33.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and plastics industry? 14:33.833 --> 14:36.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Well, if you look at our overall oil demand, 14:36.200 --> 14:37.633 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% about 14%. - Okay. 14:37.633 --> 14:41.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Or that would be about 14 million barrels of oil a day. 14:41.500 --> 14:42.666 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% - Okay. - Going in. 14:42.666 --> 14:44.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And then eight percent of the world's gas supply 14:44.833 --> 14:46.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% goes into petrochemicals. 14:46.300 --> 14:48.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And so, unlike the other products 14:48.633 --> 14:49.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we've been talking about 14:49.866 --> 14:52.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% where they're pretty specific and there's one process, 14:52.366 --> 14:54.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% when we speak about petrochemicals, 14:54.033 --> 14:57.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% there's a whole suite of different things. 14:57.100 --> 14:59.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Basically, they're all things made of carbon atoms. 14:59.833 --> 15:01.233 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% But after that, 15:01.233 --> 15:04.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the similarities start to dissipate. 15:04.066 --> 15:05.300 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [Scott] Gotcha. 15:05.300 --> 15:07.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Certainly, the chemicals industry 15:07.500 --> 15:11.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is incredibly diverse and complicated, 15:11.433 --> 15:13.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% but I also think it's important 15:13.066 --> 15:15.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that we not kind of mystify it. 15:15.500 --> 15:18.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% If you think about you go into a pastry shop 15:18.400 --> 15:20.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and you see a window display 15:20.633 --> 15:22.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that's just an amazing variety 15:22.433 --> 15:23.466 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% of different delicious things. 15:23.466 --> 15:25.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - This is not the place my head was going 15:25.100 --> 15:27.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we're talking about plastics and petrochemicals. 15:27.066 --> 15:28.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Pastry shop, don't ruin it for me here. 15:28.800 --> 15:30.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Stay with me. - Okay. 15:30.166 --> 15:31.466 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - You go into a pastry shop 15:31.466 --> 15:34.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and you see just like an amazing variety 15:34.100 --> 15:36.000 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% of different delicious things. 15:36.000 --> 15:37.166 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 15:37.166 --> 15:41.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - But all of them are made out of flour, sugar, butter, 15:41.266 --> 15:43.066 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and a couple of other ingredients. 15:43.066 --> 15:44.533 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Yum. 15:44.533 --> 15:45.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - And in the same way, 15:45.800 --> 15:47.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% there's an amazing variety of things 15:47.666 --> 15:49.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that come out of the chemicals industry, 15:49.766 --> 15:50.900 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Okay. 15:50.900 --> 15:53.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - but they're all basically made out of like ammonia, 15:53.333 --> 15:55.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% ethylene, and propylene, 15:55.066 --> 16:00.000 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% which are kind of the backbone chemicals of most plastics. 16:00.000 --> 16:03.833 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Then benzene, toluene, xylene, 16:03.833 --> 16:07.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% which are collectively referred to as BTX, 16:07.933 --> 16:09.266 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% and methanol. 16:09.266 --> 16:11.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% So that's seven chemicals. 16:11.100 --> 16:12.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And that's basically two-thirds 16:12.366 --> 16:15.033 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% of the greenhouse gas emissions from the chemical industry. 16:15.033 --> 16:16.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Gotcha. 16:16.133 --> 16:17.266 align:left position:45% line:89% size:45% Phew! 16:17.266 --> 16:18.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [group laughing] 16:18.833 --> 16:20.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I was thinking the stuff on my pastry 16:20.700 --> 16:23.033 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% was gonna be BTX or something. 16:23.033 --> 16:25.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - You did ask if there was anything in the modern world 16:25.566 --> 16:28.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that was untouched by the petrochemicals industry, 16:28.933 --> 16:32.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and I don't think there's any petrochemicals in your pastry. 16:32.266 --> 16:33.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - To get there, maybe, 16:33.333 --> 16:34.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Yeah, there were some definitely. 16:34.700 --> 16:37.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% like the appliances that were used to manufacture them, 16:37.800 --> 16:39.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but you are not eating them. 16:39.233 --> 16:41.066 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% - Yeah, sure. - As long as there's not 16:41.066 --> 16:43.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% any sort of coloring in the frosting. 16:43.633 --> 16:46.233 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Right. - Or dough conditioners. 16:46.233 --> 16:47.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% [Scott] You never know. 16:47.633 --> 16:48.533 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - True. 16:48.533 --> 16:49.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - So these seven, 16:49.733 --> 16:51.900 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% the big seven, let's call them, 16:51.900 --> 16:56.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I mean, is there a way to reduce that sector? 16:56.366 --> 16:58.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Well, I think those building blocks 16:58.366 --> 17:00.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% are building blocks for good reasons. 17:00.133 --> 17:02.933 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% They make sense for creating all the products that we are. 17:02.933 --> 17:04.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So like the other products we've talked about, 17:04.466 --> 17:06.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we need to talk about how to do them better. 17:06.133 --> 17:07.066 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Okay. 17:07.066 --> 17:09.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - And there are some common themes here. 17:09.700 --> 17:11.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% A lot of hydrogen 17:11.133 --> 17:13.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% goes into producing these various chemicals, 17:13.600 --> 17:16.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and so doing hydrogen better. - Okay. 17:16.233 --> 17:18.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - A lot of the energy that goes into these 17:18.766 --> 17:20.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% goes into providing the heat 17:20.900 --> 17:23.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that makes these kinds of chemical reactions go. 17:23.733 --> 17:25.666 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% So finding ways through catalysis 17:25.666 --> 17:29.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% or more efficient processes to put less heat in 17:29.033 --> 17:31.266 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% is another way to do these things. 17:31.266 --> 17:33.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Also, not just running these things at lower temperatures, 17:33.966 --> 17:35.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% but how to get the temperatures you need 17:35.733 --> 17:37.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% without burning something. 17:37.300 --> 17:40.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - So the final products, 17:40.566 --> 17:41.733 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% most of the final products 17:41.733 --> 17:43.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that come out of the chemicals industry 17:43.400 --> 17:45.433 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% are carbon-based products. 17:45.433 --> 17:46.433 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% So that means 17:46.433 --> 17:49.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that when you put your carbon-based fossil fuel 17:49.933 --> 17:51.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% into your chemical plant, 17:51.633 --> 17:53.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% some of that you're burning for energy 17:53.866 --> 17:56.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you get CO2 that ends up in the atmosphere. 17:56.233 --> 17:58.900 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% But as much of it as possible, 17:58.900 --> 18:02.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you are actually taking the atoms from the fuel 18:02.000 --> 18:05.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and putting those atoms in the product. 18:05.000 --> 18:10.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And so the fuel is both the feedstock and the energy source. 18:10.033 --> 18:13.500 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% On the feedstock side, 18:13.500 --> 18:15.200 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% you can say, okay, 18:15.200 --> 18:18.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% if we keep using fossil fuels for our feedstock, 18:18.700 --> 18:21.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% can we actually figure out a way 18:21.400 --> 18:25.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to get basically a hundred percent yield from our feedstock 18:25.633 --> 18:27.933 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% so that 100% of the carbon 18:27.933 --> 18:32.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that starts out in the fossil fuel ends up in the product. 18:32.066 --> 18:34.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% That's a thing we don't know how to do yet. 18:34.666 --> 18:36.033 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Is that a thing we could do? 18:36.033 --> 18:38.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% If that's not a thing we can do, 18:38.000 --> 18:41.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% then we're gonna have to capture some of that carbon. 18:41.333 --> 18:44.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Or we're gonna have to take the carbon 18:44.000 --> 18:46.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% from someplace that's not a fossil fuel. 18:46.133 --> 18:47.066 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 18:47.066 --> 18:49.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - And our options there are basically two, 18:49.333 --> 18:51.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and they're both extremely expensive. 18:51.333 --> 18:52.333 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% [Scott] Okay. 18:52.333 --> 18:54.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Option one is we can take it from biomass. 18:54.500 --> 18:56.666 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. - And option two 18:56.666 --> 19:00.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is that we can take it from carbon that we've already used. 19:00.900 --> 19:01.933 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 19:01.933 --> 19:07.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Which can be either trash or climate trash, 19:07.666 --> 19:08.966 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% which is to say we can try 19:08.966 --> 19:11.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and collect some carbon from the atmosphere and use that. 19:11.266 --> 19:12.233 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 19:12.233 --> 19:14.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - It certainly can be done theoretically. 19:14.500 --> 19:16.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Let's just say that -- 19:16.166 --> 19:17.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% [Scott] It's expensive. 19:17.133 --> 19:19.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - it is expensive in dollars, 19:19.666 --> 19:22.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and it is extremely expensive in energy. 19:22.400 --> 19:23.266 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 19:23.266 --> 19:25.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Well, and the point on that 19:25.100 --> 19:26.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is sort of to go back to 19:26.600 --> 19:28.133 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% there are some things that we know 19:28.133 --> 19:29.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% we can lower the costs on, 19:29.233 --> 19:30.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% we know we can do them better, 19:30.366 --> 19:32.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we know that we can make them less expensive. 19:32.433 --> 19:33.566 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% But in many of these processes, 19:33.566 --> 19:35.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% we're talking about the laws of thermodynamics. 19:35.766 --> 19:38.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% They, by their nature, take a lot of energy 19:38.533 --> 19:40.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and there's nothing we can do about that. 19:40.366 --> 19:41.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And then another challenge 19:41.700 --> 19:45.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with using carbohydrates from crops or whatever 19:45.500 --> 19:47.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is that we've got a lot of different uses for those. 19:47.766 --> 19:49.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% You know, we've talked about the need for them for food 19:49.666 --> 19:50.966 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and our use of fertilizer, 19:50.966 --> 19:53.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% we've talked about building materials. 19:53.300 --> 19:56.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We don't wanna use all our land use industrially. 19:56.500 --> 19:59.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And so I understand our need to get away from fossil fuels 19:59.800 --> 20:02.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and especially using fossil fuels as fuels. 20:02.766 --> 20:04.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But I personally think they're gonna be with us 20:04.633 --> 20:07.333 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% for a very long time. 20:07.333 --> 20:08.400 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - And it's not all bad. 20:08.400 --> 20:10.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - As raw materials. - Right. 20:10.200 --> 20:12.033 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Would you agree or not agree, 20:12.033 --> 20:15.333 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% or too simple, 20:15.333 --> 20:19.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that these things aren't all created equal? 20:19.033 --> 20:23.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% You know, bio, coal, oil, natural gas. 20:24.166 --> 20:25.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% If we can get toward this end of the thing, 20:25.700 --> 20:28.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% aren't we better off than this end? 20:28.633 --> 20:30.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - My standard is always 20:30.833 --> 20:34.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% how much greenhouse gas ends up in the atmosphere. 20:34.333 --> 20:36.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% From that perspective, 20:36.166 --> 20:39.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% coal is certainly worse than methane, 20:39.033 --> 20:40.700 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% but methane's still pretty bad, 20:40.700 --> 20:43.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% particularly 'cause methane is itself a greenhouse gas. 20:43.166 --> 20:45.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And you are entirely correct, 20:45.433 --> 20:47.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that from an energy density perspective, 20:47.766 --> 20:52.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% biomass is far inferior to oil and gas, 20:52.200 --> 20:54.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but it has the advantage 20:54.233 --> 20:57.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that it is not carbon that we dug out of the ground 20:57.233 --> 21:00.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and added to the climate system. 21:00.366 --> 21:02.266 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% The hard line for me 21:02.266 --> 21:06.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% is that we need to get to a place pretty quickly 21:06.066 --> 21:09.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% where there's no additional greenhouse gases 21:09.000 --> 21:10.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% being added to the atmosphere. 21:10.533 --> 21:11.533 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Right. Okay. 21:11.533 --> 21:12.633 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - In terms of carbon, 21:12.633 --> 21:15.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you have to think about it in terms of timing. 21:15.000 --> 21:16.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And when you think about biofuels, 21:16.700 --> 21:19.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that carbon was taken up by the plant recently 21:19.333 --> 21:22.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and it will be released within our lifetimes. 21:22.933 --> 21:23.833 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 21:23.833 --> 21:25.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - When we reach back into time 21:25.500 --> 21:28.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for those ancient plants that were stored underground, 21:28.400 --> 21:30.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we're getting out of today's carbon cycle 21:30.533 --> 21:33.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and putting new carbon into the atmosphere. 21:33.100 --> 21:35.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% So we wanna get away from that. 21:35.166 --> 21:36.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% But with all these solutions, 21:36.600 --> 21:38.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there's really not a free lunch. 21:38.266 --> 21:39.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% [Scott] Right. 21:39.566 --> 21:40.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And land use, I think, 21:40.633 --> 21:41.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is one of the really important places 21:41.933 --> 21:44.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where the rubber meets the road. 21:44.133 --> 21:45.633 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Biomass is attractive 21:45.633 --> 21:49.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% because we're working within today's carbon cycle. 21:49.000 --> 21:50.266 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 21:50.266 --> 21:52.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% - But the trick is, is when you start using a lot of biomass 21:52.766 --> 21:54.366 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% for different things, 21:54.366 --> 21:56.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% you get to the point where we don't have the land to do it. 21:56.766 --> 21:57.866 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 21:57.866 --> 22:00.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - And so that's why I start thinking about things 22:00.433 --> 22:03.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% like renewable electricity, 22:03.233 --> 22:06.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% where we're staying within today's sunlight cycle 22:06.166 --> 22:08.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to generate electricity. 22:08.366 --> 22:11.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Things like carbon capture and storage 22:11.200 --> 22:13.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% when we have to use fossil carbon 22:13.366 --> 22:16.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but we can prevent it from going into the atmosphere 22:16.966 --> 22:19.933 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and try to find ways to stay within our carbon budget, 22:19.933 --> 22:22.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also stay within the budgets for other things, 22:22.233 --> 22:24.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% especially land use. - Interesting. 22:24.066 --> 22:28.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You know, this has been fantastic dialogue. 22:28.100 --> 22:30.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I want to give you both a chance to just, 22:30.900 --> 22:32.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you know, final thoughts, 22:32.366 --> 22:36.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% next steps that you see? 22:36.333 --> 22:39.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - I would say that the industrial sector 22:39.866 --> 22:41.500 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% broadly considered, 22:41.500 --> 22:46.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% this is responsible for a third of greenhouse gas emissions. 22:46.133 --> 22:48.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% It's the largest single source 22:48.166 --> 22:50.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of greenhouse gas emissions on Earth. 22:50.800 --> 22:53.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But we don't talk about it that much. 22:53.133 --> 22:54.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Where does it come from? 22:54.500 --> 22:55.700 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% How do we make it? 22:55.700 --> 22:57.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% How can we do that better? 22:57.100 --> 22:58.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% How can we do that in a way 22:58.400 --> 23:00.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that not only doesn't it harm the climate, 23:00.800 --> 23:04.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but doesn't harm the air, the land, the water, 23:04.733 --> 23:06.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that's healthier for everybody. 23:06.800 --> 23:10.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I just hope that the audience of this conversation 23:10.900 --> 23:14.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% will take some time and reflect on, 23:14.700 --> 23:17.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% where does all of the stuff around me come from 23:17.766 --> 23:19.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and are there better places, 23:19.600 --> 23:21.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% are there better ways that we can do that? 23:21.600 --> 23:24.033 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - And can we use less stuff, 23:24.033 --> 23:25.766 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% especially in the U.S., 23:25.766 --> 23:28.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% we're so used to using stuff. 23:28.333 --> 23:30.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% That would have such a positive effect 23:30.000 --> 23:31.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% on everything we've talked about today. 23:31.600 --> 23:32.733 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Absolutely. 23:32.733 --> 23:34.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It's a good news, bad news situation. 23:34.733 --> 23:37.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% It's always bad news to be clueless, 23:37.400 --> 23:39.166 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% but the good news is 23:39.166 --> 23:42.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that it means that there's a lot of really easy ways to improve 23:42.400 --> 23:44.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% because we haven't even been trying. 23:44.166 --> 23:45.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [group laughing] 23:45.533 --> 23:47.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Samantha, final thoughts from you? 23:47.200 --> 23:49.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Sure, I think I'd like to come out 23:49.266 --> 23:50.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% with something that's somewhat optimistic. 23:50.966 --> 23:54.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And so we've a lot about the challenges of these industries, 23:54.166 --> 23:55.766 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% the fact that they're low margin, 23:55.766 --> 23:57.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% the fact that they're very competitive, 23:57.533 --> 24:00.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but we also keep bringing out the fact 24:00.333 --> 24:02.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that making changes wouldn't add that much 24:02.833 --> 24:04.766 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to the cost of a final product. 24:04.766 --> 24:07.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% That's a really good argument for policy 24:07.766 --> 24:09.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to move in the right direction. 24:09.433 --> 24:12.733 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% What I hear from all this is that we can afford to do this, 24:12.733 --> 24:14.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we just have to want to. 24:14.533 --> 24:16.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - Yeah, that's a neat thought. 24:17.433 --> 24:19.333 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% I think we do, 24:19.333 --> 24:20.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% in my opinion, 24:20.366 --> 24:22.433 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I think we do young people a disservice almost 24:22.433 --> 24:25.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in that we have to realize the complexities 24:25.533 --> 24:27.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and then we will solve them. 24:27.133 --> 24:29.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Young people are smart. - Yeah. 24:29.166 --> 24:30.666 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - They've gotta understand 24:30.666 --> 24:33.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the relationships that go across all these. 24:33.300 --> 24:35.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So I really appreciate that from you. 24:35.733 --> 24:37.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Well, thank you both. - Thank you very much. 24:37.633 --> 24:38.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - I've learned a tremendous amount. 24:38.833 --> 24:40.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% [Samantha] Oh, my pleasure. - I just 24:40.033 --> 24:41.266 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% ran outta ink scribbling here. 24:41.266 --> 24:43.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But this has been a wonderful discussion 24:43.400 --> 24:45.200 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% on how to decarbonize industry. 24:45.200 --> 24:47.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Scott Tinker for "Energy Switch." 24:48.500 --> 24:50.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Fertilizer is made from ammonia, 24:50.500 --> 24:54.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% which is made from natural gas, coal, or oil. 24:54.033 --> 24:56.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We use those fuels for their hydrogen, 24:56.666 --> 25:00.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but that releases their carbon as CO2. 25:00.066 --> 25:04.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% The first solution is to use fertilizer more efficiently. 25:04.300 --> 25:06.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Over-fertilizing has many negative 25:06.200 --> 25:08.466 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% local environmental impacts. 25:08.466 --> 25:12.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So carefully fertilizing has many benefits. 25:12.200 --> 25:13.433 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% As with cement, 25:13.433 --> 25:16.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we could use hydrogen to produce the ammonia for fertilizer, 25:16.833 --> 25:18.133 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% with the same caveat 25:18.133 --> 25:21.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that all affordable hydrogen production today emits CO2. 25:22.366 --> 25:24.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% As does petrochemical production. 25:24.500 --> 25:26.166 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% When we burn fuels for heat 25:26.166 --> 25:29.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and process their carbon into products like plastic. 25:29.433 --> 25:32.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Alternative sources of heat and or carbon 25:32.200 --> 25:36.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% like biomass or atmospheric CO2 might be feasible 25:36.266 --> 25:38.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but are prohibitively expensive. 25:38.933 --> 25:41.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Overall, the entire industrial sector 25:41.500 --> 25:45.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% creates one-third of global greenhouse gas emissions. 25:45.166 --> 25:47.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Efficiency, fuel switching, 25:47.400 --> 25:48.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% and innovation 25:48.566 --> 25:51.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% can make a real difference here. 25:52.766 --> 26:02.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:02.833 --> 26:11.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:11.833 --> 26:19.833 align:left position:47.5% line:5% size:42.5% ♪ 26:20.733 --> 26:22.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% [Narrator] Funding for "Energy Switch" 26:22.066 --> 26:25.200 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 26:25.200 --> 26:27.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% The University of Texas at Austin, 26:27.700 --> 26:30.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% leading research in energy and the environment 26:30.133 --> 26:32.033 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 26:32.033 --> 26:35.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world.