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The following program 
is dedicated to Randolph

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Caldecott.

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Born in Chester, England, 
in 1846,

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Caldecott illustrated 
a series of picture books

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which changed the history 
of publishing for children.

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With wit and style, 
he devised pictures

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which revived many forgotten 
and overlooked nursery rhymes.

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It's hard to forget his frog. 
Who would a wooing go.

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His four and 20 blackbirds.

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His rat that ate the malt 
and his dish.

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Who ran away with the spoon.

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Caldecott died in 1886 
at the age of 39.

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At the height 
of his popularity.

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You are Cambridge

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and everything I read.

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Little boy blue.

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A lady with a shoe and a dish.

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Run off with a spoon.

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The hickory dickory dock.

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The scholar. 
He's late to the school.

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And I like a cow,

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I jump over the moon.

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♪

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Rick> Hi. Welcome 
to Jump Over the Moon.

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I'm Rick Seebach,

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and today we have a 
very special program

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about writing, designing

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and illustrating 
children's books.

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We have two award 
winning guests

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with us, Don Bolognese 
and Elaine Raphael,

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a husband and wife team 
who've worked together

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on many children's books.

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And while they met, 
while they both were studying

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at Cooper Union Art School 
in New York City,

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they've worked individually 
on many projects

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and have collaborated 
on several outstanding books.

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I just found out that 
they did the illustrations

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for John Gardner's 
novel October Light,

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which is 
an adult book, as well.

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We're happy to have 
both of them here today.

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Elaine> Thank you. 
>> Thank you very much...

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Rick> We want to start 
by asking, first of all,

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how you got started

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in the business of drawing 
and writing children's books.

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Elaine> Well, this was 
really at Cooper Union,

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where Don and I met. 
This was about 30 years ago.

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And at the school, we were 
encouraged to work together.

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It was like understanding 
what the guild,

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the old artist 
guilds were like.

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And we did 
many joint projects.

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And from that, after 
we were married,

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we did projects together.

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Rick> You actually, 
worked on children's books

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while still in art school 
or just illustrations -

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Elaine> 
It was part of the program.

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Children's books- 
Don> Children's,

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children's illustration 
was one type of illustration.

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We had a very

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strong foundation 
in art in general,

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and that was just one

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of our interests, but 
we did a lot of other things.

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But as Elaine said,

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much of the class 
work was very communal

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and, with the teacher 
sort of being the master

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and all the students 
being apprentices,

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and very much 
in the old tradition

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of the old studios, 
the old art guilds.

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So the idea of collaboration

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was something that we learned 
very early in our careers.

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Elaine> And the more 
we collaborated,

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the more we understood 
our own artistic nature.

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And this is 
I mean, it's really,

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even if you have to fight 
and argue

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about a situation or design, 
but you work it out.

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And this is how we learned

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to do it in school 
from beginning that way.

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Rick> I'm interested to know 
about the first book.

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And was it one of those books 
that Cooper Union

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that was actually published, 
or was it after that?

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Don> No. The first, actual book 
that we, worked on

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together was a children's 
book was called

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A Sleepy Watchdog.

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And, it grew out of, a story 
we were telling our

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younger daughter 
who had the chickenpox.

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And we made up the story 
to amuse her.

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And, it grew and developed, 
and we try to have it

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published and was one of those 
nice things that worked out.

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Rick> Well, let's talk a minute 
about collaborating.

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Elaine> Okay.

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>> You both do the artwork as 
well as the text of the books.

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Don> That's right. We 
collaborate on both ends of it.

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Which is sometimes very 
confusing to people, but,

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both of us have 
different strengths.

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And we, try to

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bring each one of us tries 
to bring their particular

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strengths to a project, 
whatever it is.

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Elaine> I would consider myself 
more poetical in nature,

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and Don is more structural.

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And I'm very concerned about 
the expression

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of a book, totally.

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And Don is concerned 
about the totality in design,

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and we seem to combine this 
very well.

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And at some points

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we've actually passed 
the drawing back and forth

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so it doesn't look like one 
or the other.

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Rick> Well, you make it sound so 
easy. Is it ever hard?

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Elaine> 
Well, it's hard,

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I think in the beginning, 
when we're conceiving

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what the expression 
of the book should be.

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But then 
we get past these rough spots.

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It really works out very well.

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And we do many books 
at the same time,

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so we're actually 
juggling books.

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Don> We actually have many hats 
while we're working, you know.

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And, as Elaine said, 
one of the more,

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the more most difficult part of 
it is getting into it, because

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the conception of the book, 
trying to interpret

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what the author has meant 
and that

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interestingly enough, is

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as true when we're the authors 
as well as the illustrators,

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that we have to complement 
our text

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with our illustrations 
and not just repeat it

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so that it becomes 
a redundancy.

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Rick> Is one more important 
than the other,

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or is the text more important 
than the pictures,

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or does 
it vary with different books.

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Elaine> Gee I don't know. I 
don't think it's...

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I think an illustration 
is there to illuminate a book

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and it becomes something, 
something third.

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It doesn't stand by itself. 
It brings it all together,

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perhaps- 
>>-for example,

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Elaine> I can explain it that 
way. >> They say that,

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it should be more 
than the sum of its parts

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so that you don't 
have a text that's,

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repeated in the illustration,

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but when you experience 
both of them,

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you have a third thing, 
as you said.

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And, and the best ones,

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I think that is accomplished, 
you know, whether we do it

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or someone else 
does it that way.

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Elaine> 
And we begin with the subject.

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The subject tells us 
how we should begin

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to explore this book.

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For instance, we could begin 
by discussing one of these.

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Rick> 
Sam Baker Gone West.

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Don> Well, Sam Baker 
really grew out of,

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in this case, 
Elaine's interest

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in (indiscernible) Tolstoy.

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And she unearthed a story by 
Tolstoy called...

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Elaine> How Much

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Man Does One Man Need?

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How much Land 
Does One Man Need?

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Don> Yeah. 
Elaine> And...

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George Steiner, 
a critic of Tolstoy,

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said this was this story 
was the closest thing to,

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an American, a Western man

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going and conquering nature. 
Yeah.

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Don> It was 
>> It was very similar

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Rick> But Tolstoy wrote it 
about Russia...Russia.

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Don> Right. But the similarities 
were so startling.

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Of course, 
we had been interested in

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Americana for a long time.

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And also the difference in 
how the Indian, treated,

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the land and the pioneer 
treated the land.

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And so we adapted the story

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Elaine> and, but a similar thing 
happened in Russia with the,

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they have a nomads 
on the steps of, in Russia.

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And when, there was a story that 
in this particular story,

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that Tolstoy did was that 
he wanted as much land

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as he could. 
He was very greedy.

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And this Indian felt that 
greed will really undo him.

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And it was the same thing 
that happened in the West,

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where men 
wanted to take over the land.

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And the Indian concept, 
is one can never own this.

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So he was willing to go along 
with this bargain of,

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yes, you can have as much land 
as you want,

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not knowing 
that it was going to be sold.

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Rick> I thought there was going 
to be a trick when I read it.

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And, I was I was surprised 
at the ending of the book.

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I'm interested to know if, 
you know,

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there was any sort of critical 
reaction to that ending.

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Sam Baker dies in the end of 
Sam Baker Gone West.

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When he's finally got 
as much land as he wants.

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He's exhausted and dies,

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and gets only the six feet

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of ground 
that it takes to bury him.

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Don> Well, we knew it would be, 
somewhat controversial.

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You don't like to kill off 
the hero

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in a children's book 
like that,

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but it got very good 
reviews and good response,

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and it certainly is.

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Very natural and organic 
to the way the story goes.

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Another ending 
wouldn't have worked out.

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Elaine> 
And it is an exaggerated...

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being a fable 
was an exaggeration

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of an illustration of a man 
bigger than a page

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they would normally be.

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And in all the illustrations 
is that way.

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Rick> 
Well tell me this

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is certainly 
at some point

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there must have been 
an idea of Sam Baker

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that later became 
an illustration of Sam Baker.

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Don> And this is 
a very early, almost

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benign version of Sam Baker.

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And you can see that 
he developed...

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Elaine> This one. 
Don> into this

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and then finally 
into the of (indiscernible)

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Elaine> this one.

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Don> Well, 
that's another view of him.

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Elaine> Yeah. 
Don>This is the final one.

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And, you know, he's really

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quite aggressive 
and acquisitive in nature,

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you know, and as he does.

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But that is one

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this is a good example 
of one approach.

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And because of the fabulous 
nature of it

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and, the Americana, 
it came out looking like this,

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with a very bold 
and very energetic, style.

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The other books we've done, 
are very different.

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For example,

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the book, for very young 
children, Turnabout.

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But in this book.

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We wanted it to be extremely 
graphic and very simple,

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because 
it was for a very young child.

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We wanted them to grasp the,

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the message of it 
very quickly.

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And it was a humorous folk 
tale about, folk

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song of early 
American pioneer life.

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Again, our interest has been in 
that area and

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some of this grew 
out of the research

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we did for Sam Baker.

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When we do 
many of our stories,

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especially those 
that are set in historical,

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settings,

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we try to research 
as much as possible

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so that when 
the reader enters the book,

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he doesn't enter a book, only, 
he enters another dimension.

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I think people probably 
understand this very easily

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when you're 
talking about films,

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because we know how important

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the art direction in the film 
is to create this world

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so that the story has 
a reality.

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Elaine> And it's even 
rather unconscious

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if it becomes authentic.

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And you wouldn't even know, 
but you feel that you're

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in that time and place

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and that should happen 
when you pick up the book

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and you look, 
especially if it's a star.

249
00:11:00,133 --> 00:11:01,833
Rick> Do you find yourself 
being influenced

250
00:11:01,833 --> 00:11:03,600
by other illustrators?

251
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,100
Elaine> I think we're influenced 
by painters and artists

252
00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:07,366
and in general.

253
00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:08,700
Rick> Yeah, 
>> I mean, we've

254
00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:10,333
many trips to the museum and,

255
00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:12,800
you know, days 
just walking and looking.

256
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,800
Rick> I know from wandering 
through the children's room

257
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,833
in the library that there are 
a lot of couples who do this

258
00:11:17,833 --> 00:11:19,033
who work together.

259
00:11:19,033 --> 00:11:21,766
Any idea why?

260
00:11:21,766 --> 00:11:23,566
Well, 
I think, children's books

261
00:11:23,566 --> 00:11:25,700
was originally 
a cottage industry

262
00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:28,766
where things were done, 
at home.

263
00:11:28,766 --> 00:11:33,100
And, it's really 
a small quiet, you know,

264
00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:37,433
Don> It's a it's not a, fast 
paced kind of business.

265
00:11:37,433 --> 00:11:41,266
It's something that must be 
done in quiet and in private.

266
00:11:41,266 --> 00:11:42,866
And there's an awful lot of

267
00:11:42,866 --> 00:11:46,200
research and contemplation 
about it and development

268
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,333
of skills. For example.

269
00:11:48,333 --> 00:11:52,633
What we have laid out here is 
a fact of the amount of work

270
00:11:52,633 --> 00:11:54,733
that we go through 
whenever we do a book.

271
00:11:54,733 --> 00:11:56,166
I mean, it's incredible.

272
00:11:56,166 --> 00:12:00,233
You we have stacks 
of, of, sketches and

273
00:12:01,633 --> 00:12:04,033
dummies, 
which a dummy is a kind of a

274
00:12:04,033 --> 00:12:05,833
rough copy of the whole book.

275
00:12:05,833 --> 00:12:07,700
And we do several of these

276
00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:10,300
when we, when we're preparing 
for this kind of thing.

277
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:14,700
So working together on 
it is just kind of a very easy

278
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:16,400
and natural thing 
for us to do.

279
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,933
Elaine> Stories 
might come into your head,

280
00:12:18,933 --> 00:12:21,400
you know, as we're 
talking at the dinner table,

281
00:12:22,433 --> 00:12:25,300
and then, I could go off and go 
to the garden,

282
00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:27,766
and it's is developing 
in my head,

283
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:29,600
and I need a lot 
more quiet time

284
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,100
than Don does and I tend 
to write more than he does.

285
00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:36,100
And then we get together 
and we discuss the dialog,

286
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:37,433
if we're writing this.

287
00:12:37,433 --> 00:12:40,000
In fact, 
we play parts in the dialog,

288
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,733
and, the last book 
we just did, in fact,

289
00:12:42,733 --> 00:12:45,900
the second one is coming out 
is, Donkey and Carlo,

290
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:48,100
and we kind of switch roles 
all the time.

291
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,166
And one time I was playing 
Donkey,

292
00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:52,433
and I start to stamp my feet.

293
00:12:52,433 --> 00:12:53,533
I mean, 
it was a natural thing.

294
00:12:53,533 --> 00:12:54,733
Like I said, no, 
you can't do that.

295
00:12:54,733 --> 00:12:55,933
And I was stamping...

296
00:12:55,933 --> 00:12:57,900
and this is just the 
this the these characters

297
00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:00,166
develop that way, 
like, out of friendship.

298
00:13:00,166 --> 00:13:03,800
What do you promise each other 
and how you keep a promise?

299
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,133
And he wasn't 
keeping a promise

300
00:13:05,133 --> 00:13:07,033
and I was stamping my feet and

301
00:13:07,033 --> 00:13:10,966
and we wrote the story around 
this very small happening,

302
00:13:10,966 --> 00:13:13,133
Don> 
Yeah. That's, that's true.

303
00:13:13,133 --> 00:13:16,133
And we, we fight about who's

304
00:13:16,133 --> 00:13:17,300
who in the book,

305
00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:18,633
depending on 
who we think at the moment

306
00:13:18,633 --> 00:13:20,733
is the more 
sympathetic character.

307
00:13:20,733 --> 00:13:23,266
Rick> Tell me a little bit 
about how it all starts.

308
00:13:23,266 --> 00:13:26,933
Where does where do these ideas 
come from and how do you know

309
00:13:26,933 --> 00:13:29,133
when the idea is right 
and worth pursuing?

310
00:13:29,133 --> 00:13:30,333
Elaine> 
You want to answer that first?

311
00:13:30,333 --> 00:13:32,033
Don> All right. Well, 
let's take Donkey and Carlo,

312
00:13:32,033 --> 00:13:33,300
that's a good idea.

313
00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:35,466
That started with a very

314
00:13:35,466 --> 00:13:38,833
we found an old law 
about sumptuary law that

315
00:13:38,833 --> 00:13:42,733
how people were supposed to, 
by law, dress in the 1700s.

316
00:13:42,733 --> 00:13:44,566
We wrote a story about that.

317
00:13:44,566 --> 00:13:47,533
We sent it to an editor, 
and she didn't like any of it,

318
00:13:47,533 --> 00:13:52,133
except for one little picture 
and sentence about

319
00:13:52,133 --> 00:13:54,566
Carlo and his donkey, 
and she said,

320
00:13:54,566 --> 00:13:56,500
if you could write a story 
that was very natural

321
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:58,933
about how these two interact,

322
00:13:58,933 --> 00:14:01,166
I'd love to see it, 
Elaine> actually, she said,

323
00:14:01,166 --> 00:14:02,833
I think this is the story 
right here.

324
00:14:02,833 --> 00:14:05,133
And she said, 
these were two lines.

325
00:14:05,133 --> 00:14:06,666
And, she said, why don't you 
go home

326
00:14:06,666 --> 00:14:08,266
and think about that Elaine?

327
00:14:08,266 --> 00:14:09,500
And she was absolutely right.

328
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:10,700
I went home and I thought about

329
00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:12,400
how the story grew 
from those two lines,

330
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,000
and we built the story 
around it.

331
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,233
Don> So we threw out 
everything else

332
00:14:15,233 --> 00:14:17,266
about the sumptuary laws 
and everything,

333
00:14:17,266 --> 00:14:19,600
and we just focused on this

334
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,733
developing 
friendship between these two,

335
00:14:21,733 --> 00:14:24,133
creatures, let's call them.

336
00:14:24,133 --> 00:14:27,933
And, and that's the way one 
began,

337
00:14:27,933 --> 00:14:29,233
Elaine> Sometimes it's from what

338
00:14:29,233 --> 00:14:31,133
our pictures are in our heads,

339
00:14:31,133 --> 00:14:34,666
sometimes it's from 
another author's idea.

340
00:14:34,666 --> 00:14:36,500
We get his picture. Right?

341
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,466
Don> This is when we 
illustration for another author.

342
00:14:39,466 --> 00:14:41,700
Rick> But I know Turnabout 
came from a song.

343
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,033
Elaine> from a song that we 
found that we thought was,

344
00:14:44,033 --> 00:14:45,500
was a lot of fun.

345
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:47,333
And it was something 
very contemporary,

346
00:14:47,333 --> 00:14:50,866
the idea of husband and wife 
sharing work together.

347
00:14:50,866 --> 00:14:52,066
Rick> I see, there is 
a little

348
00:14:52,066 --> 00:14:53,266
collaboration involved there, 
too.

349
00:14:53,266 --> 00:14:55,900
>> Yes. It's it's like today, 
what's happening,

350
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:57,600
Don> you know, the reversal of 
roles.

351
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,700
>> Our children are experiencing 
this in the home.

352
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,633
We thought this was a good way 
for them

353
00:15:01,633 --> 00:15:03,866
to see how parents 
work it out.

354
00:15:03,866 --> 00:15:06,766
I mean, it's a little tease 
too, you know, okay,

355
00:15:06,766 --> 00:15:07,966
Rick> Let's walk around

356
00:15:07,966 --> 00:15:11,533
and look at some of these 
things and talk about the,

357
00:15:11,533 --> 00:15:16,400
the various stages that go on 
after the idea is arrived at.

358
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,266
Don> Let's take this one first. 
Elaine> Okay.

359
00:15:19,266 --> 00:15:22,933
Letters to horse face 
was written by Ferd Monjo

360
00:15:22,933 --> 00:15:26,533
and it's a story 
of Mozart's

361
00:15:26,533 --> 00:15:28,566
travels 
to Italy with his father

362
00:15:28,566 --> 00:15:30,133
when he was very young.

363
00:15:30,133 --> 00:15:33,600
Mozart was about 13, and,

364
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,400
he wrote letters 
to his sister.

365
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,133
And like any young, person 
he was,

366
00:15:38,133 --> 00:15:39,833
he teased his sister a lot.

367
00:15:39,833 --> 00:15:43,266
But he also included 
a great deal of information

368
00:15:43,266 --> 00:15:47,533
in the, in the, in the letters 
and the book

369
00:15:47,533 --> 00:15:52,866
was conceived by Elaine 
as the a journal,

370
00:15:52,866 --> 00:15:56,400
a traveler's 
journal of the 18th century.

371
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,833
And everything 
followed from that, you know?

372
00:15:59,833 --> 00:16:01,233
Rick> Okay. So they're not 
actually letters

373
00:16:01,233 --> 00:16:02,433
that were written by Mozart.

374
00:16:02,433 --> 00:16:05,066
They were written by Manjo? 
Don> Exactly.

375
00:16:05,066 --> 00:16:07,933
Elaine> He created them. But he 
did take them out

376
00:16:07,933 --> 00:16:09,566
of Mozart's letters. 
Yes he did.

377
00:16:09,566 --> 00:16:12,233
And we kind of thought it would 
be great to do

378
00:16:12,233 --> 00:16:14,366
a, a sketchbook.

379
00:16:14,366 --> 00:16:15,733
Like, he would keep 
a little notebook

380
00:16:15,733 --> 00:16:18,600
and do these little sketches 
of what he saw.

381
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:19,800
And we even included

382
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,300
calligraphy like Mozart 
would have written.

383
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,466
Exactly the things on the side 
here, for example,

384
00:16:24,466 --> 00:16:26,633
at the carnival 
or at the opera.

385
00:16:26,633 --> 00:16:27,833
Rick> And now some of these 
things

386
00:16:27,833 --> 00:16:29,266
I can see show 
progression of drawing.

387
00:16:29,266 --> 00:16:32,100
Don> This is just 
a very simple progression.

388
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,033
And it's as I said, 
oversimplified.

389
00:16:34,033 --> 00:16:36,066
We we've eliminated 
some of the steps,

390
00:16:36,066 --> 00:16:39,233
but this is 
one of the early sketches.

391
00:16:39,233 --> 00:16:41,800
This is another sketch 
in progress.

392
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,966
This is the finished drawing.

393
00:16:44,966 --> 00:16:48,633
And this is how it looks 
in the actual book.

394
00:16:48,633 --> 00:16:52,633
It's obviously a, 
almost a pencil like style.

395
00:16:52,633 --> 00:16:55,633
And you both draw on this.

396
00:16:55,633 --> 00:16:56,833
Elaine> Yes we do, 
Don> That's right.

397
00:16:56,833 --> 00:16:59,266
Elaine> I mean if you, 
if you ever have seen

398
00:16:59,266 --> 00:17:00,466
Dürer's ....work

399
00:17:00,466 --> 00:17:03,366
or lot of the sketchbooks 
have this sepia look

400
00:17:03,366 --> 00:17:04,966
and they do it 
with this pencil.

401
00:17:04,966 --> 00:17:09,533
So the Conti pencil is sort 
of orange and we use this

402
00:17:09,533 --> 00:17:11,266
and it has a watercolor,

403
00:17:11,266 --> 00:17:14,833
technique, a sort of a wash, 
Don> a little wash of it. Right.

404
00:17:14,833 --> 00:17:17,900
Elaine> We would, we would a 
work, we would design,

405
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:20,700
lay it out like, for instance, 
here lay out and then,

406
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,933
we would pass 
the drawing back and forth

407
00:17:22,933 --> 00:17:25,666
and to sort of work out 
some of the detail

408
00:17:25,666 --> 00:17:27,066
or costuming detail,

409
00:17:27,066 --> 00:17:29,900
you know, where buttons 
and, (indescernible)

410
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,566
which was at that time 
all they had.

411
00:17:31,566 --> 00:17:33,666
Rick> A lot of research 
involved in it.

412
00:17:33,666 --> 00:17:37,566
Elaine> And then this go into 
the library for a month or two

413
00:17:37,566 --> 00:17:39,466
just finding out 
and some of the,

414
00:17:39,466 --> 00:17:44,500
things we discovered, 
for instance, there was this

415
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:46,900
and this part of

416
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:48,366
these were 
the early sketches we had to

417
00:17:48,366 --> 00:17:50,933
present to the editor, 
and he would go over,

418
00:17:50,933 --> 00:17:53,466
Don> you see how the 
how much they changed from,

419
00:17:53,466 --> 00:17:57,066
when, from the final product.

420
00:17:57,066 --> 00:17:58,800
But one thing we did discover,

421
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,566
it was just by accident, 
was that

422
00:18:01,566 --> 00:18:03,833
we found an old engraving

423
00:18:03,833 --> 00:18:06,366
of the Cathedral of Milan, 
which was under construction,

424
00:18:06,366 --> 00:18:09,266
the facade of which was 
right at the time. Yeah.

425
00:18:09,266 --> 00:18:10,466
Oh, yeah.

426
00:18:10,466 --> 00:18:12,433
Right at the time 
when Mozart was traveling

427
00:18:12,433 --> 00:18:17,033
through there and, yeah, it was 
a nice little bit of history.

428
00:18:17,033 --> 00:18:20,533
It's not such a great 
bit of news, you know.

429
00:18:20,533 --> 00:18:23,666
But on the other hand, it,

430
00:18:23,666 --> 00:18:25,700
it sort of fleshes out 
the whole thing

431
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:29,100
and gives an authenticity 
to the to the book itself.

432
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:30,500
Rick> Well, 
now this book seems to be

433
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:32,333
for a little bit older 
audience than, say,

434
00:18:32,333 --> 00:18:34,533
Turnabout or Sam Baker 
Gone West.

435
00:18:34,533 --> 00:18:36,200
Is that a lot different?

436
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,066
I mean, illustrating 
books for an older audience?

437
00:18:41,466 --> 00:18:44,466
Don> Actually not, you know, our 
attitude about illustration

438
00:18:44,466 --> 00:18:48,466
stays the same, whether it's 
for older or younger children.

439
00:18:50,066 --> 00:18:54,333
It's, Yeah, here's 
the here's the picture of the,

440
00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:56,800
cathedral 
and the construction.

441
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,433
But getting back 
to the question

442
00:18:58,433 --> 00:18:59,933
of how we consider it,

443
00:18:59,933 --> 00:19:01,066
we do consider it

444
00:19:01,066 --> 00:19:04,500
the age and the age, 
because younger children,

445
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:06,066
I think, respond more to,

446
00:19:06,066 --> 00:19:10,600
kind of a, a bolder, more 
easily understood picture.

447
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,366
I think all the children 
can take more complexity

448
00:19:13,366 --> 00:19:15,266
in, in the pictures.

449
00:19:15,266 --> 00:19:17,200
And, we adjust.

450
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,633
Elaine> Yeah, 
they seem to enjoy detail.

451
00:19:18,633 --> 00:19:20,633
Getting back to this, 
Ferdinando,

452
00:19:20,633 --> 00:19:22,800
I didn't even know 
that the cathedral was under

453
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,766
construction at the time.

454
00:19:24,766 --> 00:19:26,700
So when we travel, we did,

455
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:28,233
Mozart's tours ourselves,

456
00:19:28,233 --> 00:19:29,266
and we discovered

457
00:19:29,266 --> 00:19:30,833
that it was 
under construction,

458
00:19:30,833 --> 00:19:32,300
so we had to change 
the illustration.

459
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:34,933
We had done a complete 
drawing of the cathedral,

460
00:19:34,933 --> 00:19:36,133
so we had to put it in

461
00:19:36,133 --> 00:19:37,966
like it was under 
construction, being built.

462
00:19:37,966 --> 00:19:39,800
Rick> So you were actually 
working with Monjo?

463
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,900
Elaine> Yes. 
Rick> Did ever his text change

464
00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:44,300
to match something like this 
that you found?

465
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:48,433
Don> It might have in one or 
two small cases, but not sure.

466
00:19:48,433 --> 00:19:50,466
Elaine> He was sure he was very 
generous with his material.

467
00:19:50,466 --> 00:19:51,666
And we shared a lot.

468
00:19:51,666 --> 00:19:53,466
Don> Yeah, 
he had a lot of information.

469
00:19:53,466 --> 00:19:57,300
Elaine> He was very concerned 
about getting everything right.

470
00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:00,533
Rick> Is it at all easier to 
work from someone else's work?

471
00:20:00,533 --> 00:20:02,266
Elaine> I've no idea.

472
00:20:02,266 --> 00:20:03,666
Don> I don't think

473
00:20:03,666 --> 00:20:06,433
there's any general rule 
about that. No.

474
00:20:06,433 --> 00:20:08,800
I think the hardest part

475
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,866
to say it again 
is getting the concept,

476
00:20:12,866 --> 00:20:14,466
the original concept.

477
00:20:14,466 --> 00:20:16,100
And once you have that 
and you're

478
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:18,133
and you're comfortable with it

479
00:20:18,133 --> 00:20:21,500
and it's amazing how 
many things flow from that.

480
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:23,800
On the other hand, 
if you get a concept

481
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,466
which is has a real 
serious flaw

482
00:20:26,466 --> 00:20:28,900
and you struggle to adapt

483
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,766
the book to this flawed 
concept, nothing goes right.

484
00:20:32,766 --> 00:20:36,933
And so we have had instances 
where, you know,

485
00:20:36,933 --> 00:20:39,833
two thirds through the book 
they'll scrap everything.

486
00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:41,766
As it happened with Turnabout.

487
00:20:41,766 --> 00:20:44,033
Turnabout was an excellent 
example of that.

488
00:20:44,033 --> 00:20:48,733
Turnabout started out as three 
folk songs for children.

489
00:20:48,733 --> 00:20:52,633
The young children 
and the editor kept insisting

490
00:20:52,633 --> 00:20:56,633
that the three folk songs 
would should be included,

491
00:20:56,633 --> 00:20:58,933
and we kept feeling 
that the folk song

492
00:20:58,933 --> 00:21:01,566
should be for young children.

493
00:21:01,566 --> 00:21:04,333
And as we kept designing 
the book, we were struggling,

494
00:21:04,333 --> 00:21:07,433
struggling, trying to get these 
three stories into this book

495
00:21:07,433 --> 00:21:09,833
so that they were coherent 
to children

496
00:21:09,833 --> 00:21:11,466
and they weren't 
even coherent to us.

497
00:21:11,466 --> 00:21:14,200
And so we said 
there was something wrong.

498
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,666
And finally we realized 
that for the age group,

499
00:21:16,666 --> 00:21:20,333
we were really interested in 
three was too many.

500
00:21:20,333 --> 00:21:22,366
And we decided 
we wanted only one.

501
00:21:22,366 --> 00:21:27,200
And we came to a very serious 
point with the editor.

502
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,800
I see, you know, conflict

503
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,666
and, it was resolved 
in a very interesting way.

504
00:21:33,666 --> 00:21:35,900
The editor went to another 
publishing house

505
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:39,433
and a new editor came 
and took over the project.

506
00:21:39,433 --> 00:21:41,533
And it just resolved itself.

507
00:21:41,533 --> 00:21:42,700
Elaine> Well, she saw it 
differently.

508
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:44,800
Don> Yeah, she saw it, 
Rick> I see,

509
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,266
and we decide 
on the one story

510
00:21:47,266 --> 00:21:51,233
and going very young and going 
into, doing it with bears

511
00:21:51,233 --> 00:21:52,633
instead of people.

512
00:21:52,633 --> 00:21:54,400
Rick> Talk about that 
for a second.

513
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,533
It's something that's, 
that fascinates me.

514
00:21:56,533 --> 00:21:59,166
You know, 
why is there so much

515
00:21:59,166 --> 00:22:01,900
use of animals 
in a children's book?

516
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:03,633
You know, 
why aren't these people

517
00:22:03,633 --> 00:22:06,866
that's a story about people, 
but it works with bears, too.

518
00:22:06,866 --> 00:22:08,933
I mean, and what 
made you decide to use bears?

519
00:22:10,866 --> 00:22:12,033
Elaine> Well,

520
00:22:12,033 --> 00:22:14,966
I don't know. 
I just think we like bears.

521
00:22:14,966 --> 00:22:16,866
Elaine> Yeah. 
Don> In Vermont,

522
00:22:16,866 --> 00:22:19,333
we have bears, in the woods,

523
00:22:19,333 --> 00:22:23,800
and we occasionally see them.

524
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,100
That's sort of an a

525
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:29,966
sort of an unconscious thing, 
but I, we felt that children

526
00:22:29,966 --> 00:22:34,033
related more to the animals 
figures as stand-ins.

527
00:22:34,033 --> 00:22:38,066
And since there was an element 
of what's the word,

528
00:22:38,066 --> 00:22:43,233
controversy or, 
I don't know what,

529
00:22:43,233 --> 00:22:46,233
well, controversy in the story 
itself between the

530
00:22:46,233 --> 00:22:48,200
the husband and the wife, 
we thought that

531
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,966
if we could use the bears, it 
could be more humorous, too.

532
00:22:51,966 --> 00:22:53,000
Because we have the bears

533
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,600
doing 
a lot of slapstick things,

534
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,000
Elaine> And you could almost 
laugh at yourself

535
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,366
if you saw yourself as a bear.

536
00:22:58,366 --> 00:22:59,900
Rick> Okay. 
Elaine> Seeing these things.

537
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,133
Don> I must say that 
whether this is true,

538
00:23:02,133 --> 00:23:03,466
whether it works, 
we don't know.

539
00:23:03,466 --> 00:23:05,766
You know, there's a lot of 
theories about this,

540
00:23:05,766 --> 00:23:08,266
but I, for one, 
don't have any.

541
00:23:08,266 --> 00:23:11,933
Elaine> ...the editor encouraged 
us to do this, you see.

542
00:23:11,933 --> 00:23:13,300
Rick> Encourage 
the bears?

543
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:16,100
>> Yes, she did very much. You 
know, another editor might not.

544
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,533
Rick> So this is...they weren't 
they weren't ever people.

545
00:23:18,533 --> 00:23:20,533
They were bears in your mind 
from the beginning?

546
00:23:20,533 --> 00:23:22,466
Elaine> No, first they were 
they were people.

547
00:23:22,466 --> 00:23:24,600
They were very 
people from the beginning.

548
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,133
And we had three stories 
going.

549
00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:28,200
And you see, now, 
this is where an editor plays

550
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,633
a very important part.

551
00:23:29,633 --> 00:23:32,733
They have a vision 
also has a different vision.

552
00:23:32,733 --> 00:23:35,100
And then you have to 
collaborate with the editor.

553
00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:36,200
Now some editors make

554
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,300
you have for rain 
and some feel very strongly

555
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:40,800
and they insist upon 
certain things.

556
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,300
Now she wanted the book 
to be very, very young.

557
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,700
So she said, let's do a bear. 
And I said, fine,

558
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,100
this is good with us because 
we can laugh at ourselves.

559
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:49,966
And then things 
got funnier, right?

560
00:23:49,966 --> 00:23:51,900
Because otherwise 
we just were serious.

561
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,700
And she saw something 
that we didn't see,

562
00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:56,100
and it worked out very well.

563
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:58,500
>> And you decided to do them in 
linoleum block print?

564
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,900
Don> Well, the linoleum block, 
idea came out of

565
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:06,133
our research into Americana, 
into early bookmaking,

566
00:24:06,133 --> 00:24:07,433
and early bookmaking

567
00:24:07,433 --> 00:24:10,300
is almost exclusively black 
print work.

568
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,166
Almost all the early books

569
00:24:12,166 --> 00:24:14,666
were printed or reproduced 
from block prints.

570
00:24:14,666 --> 00:24:16,833
Either would print 
mostly wood prints

571
00:24:16,833 --> 00:24:18,666
and, woodblock prints.

572
00:24:18,666 --> 00:24:20,266
So we thought that was

573
00:24:20,266 --> 00:24:23,700
would give it 
also quality of authenticity

574
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:25,533
because we like 
when we do a book,

575
00:24:25,533 --> 00:24:26,733
we like to give

576
00:24:26,733 --> 00:24:30,933
as much as possible, even 
if it's in a subliminal way.

577
00:24:30,933 --> 00:24:32,733
In other words, 
we're not trying to teach

578
00:24:32,733 --> 00:24:34,300
children or parents

579
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,100
about American, 
traditions and art and so on,

580
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:39,566
but it's there

581
00:24:39,566 --> 00:24:40,900
you know, 
and if you look at it

582
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,766
and you look for it 
or you see something else

583
00:24:42,766 --> 00:24:45,466
and you say, oh, you know, that 
reminds me of what I've seen.

584
00:24:45,466 --> 00:24:48,366
It's a nice 
sort of enrichment.

585
00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:49,566
Well, we thought it would be

586
00:24:49,566 --> 00:24:51,533
a good idea to do it 
that way.

587
00:24:51,533 --> 00:24:55,833
Even though we had begun 
with, watercolor techniques.

588
00:24:55,833 --> 00:24:57,033
Rick> These bears 
look meaner too.

589
00:24:57,033 --> 00:24:58,433
(laughs)

590
00:24:58,433 --> 00:25:00,000
Elaine> I think 
we're working that out.

591
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,000
Yeah, but it went, I think, 
over a period of time from,

592
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,766
color work, just really

593
00:25:05,766 --> 00:25:07,300
a very limited color

594
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:08,633
and just really black 
and white,

595
00:25:08,633 --> 00:25:10,466
because the course 
of the book,

596
00:25:10,466 --> 00:25:12,833
as I think it came 
within the last five years,

597
00:25:12,833 --> 00:25:14,966
the cost of the book 
kept rising.

598
00:25:14,966 --> 00:25:17,966
And we had to really change it 
because of that reason.

599
00:25:17,966 --> 00:25:19,866
So to keep the cost down.

600
00:25:19,866 --> 00:25:22,833
So we went to just, 
black and white at one point.

601
00:25:22,833 --> 00:25:26,500
At one point we had 
we had, played around

602
00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:31,200
with woodblocks or linoleum 
cuts, which were multicolored,

603
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,466
Don> but this is a little 
interesting side note

604
00:25:34,466 --> 00:25:35,833
to all three books.

605
00:25:35,833 --> 00:25:37,566
Each one of these books, 
believe it

606
00:25:37,566 --> 00:25:39,733
or not, took at least three

607
00:25:39,733 --> 00:25:43,466
and sometimes four years 
from beginning to end.

608
00:25:43,466 --> 00:25:45,233
Now, we didn't work 
on these constantly.

609
00:25:45,233 --> 00:25:49,033
But between this 
and the other factor,

610
00:25:49,033 --> 00:25:52,100
it took that long to get them 
to the point where they

611
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:53,233
they were publishable.

612
00:25:53,233 --> 00:25:55,733
You know, we've always tried 
to experiment

613
00:25:55,733 --> 00:25:57,000
in dealing with books.

614
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,400
And about 1967,

615
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,600
I did a doodle,

616
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,933
and Elaine 
was standing over me,

617
00:26:01,933 --> 00:26:03,566
and she watched 
this doodle develop.

618
00:26:03,566 --> 00:26:05,966
And she said, you know, there's 
a story in that doodle

619
00:26:05,966 --> 00:26:07,400
was only about that big.

620
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,633
And that doodle turned into a

621
00:26:09,633 --> 00:26:11,433
story 
called Once Upon A Mountain.

622
00:26:11,433 --> 00:26:13,400
And it was the first time 
I did a book

623
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,533
that was made 
from only one picture.

624
00:26:15,533 --> 00:26:17,333
I did a picture 
about that big,

625
00:26:17,333 --> 00:26:19,766
and then I did 
blow ups of each picture.

626
00:26:19,766 --> 00:26:23,100
It was a little anti-war 
or a fable about not

627
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:28,666
how silly things lead to a war 
and was and, it,

628
00:26:28,666 --> 00:26:30,533
it was funny and kids 
enjoyed it.

629
00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:33,400
And, but then it led to

630
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,133
I like the idea 
and Jean George have done

631
00:26:36,133 --> 00:26:37,333
a lot of science work.

632
00:26:37,333 --> 00:26:39,400
She won the Newberry for 
Julie of the Wolves.

633
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,666
She did a book 
called All Upon a Stone,

634
00:26:41,666 --> 00:26:44,233
which is a science thing 
about a mole cricket,

635
00:26:44,233 --> 00:26:46,133
and that I use 
the same technique

636
00:26:46,133 --> 00:26:48,033
where I took a whole 
painting. This time,

637
00:26:48,033 --> 00:26:50,533
it was three feet 
by four feet.

638
00:26:50,533 --> 00:26:53,700
And I did again, blow 
ups of the particular,

639
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:55,366
of each particular section.

640
00:26:55,366 --> 00:26:56,633
And finally we did

641
00:26:56,633 --> 00:26:59,466
the last book was called All 
Upon a Sidewalk, which was,

642
00:26:59,466 --> 00:27:02,600
The travels of an ant 
and a crack in the sidewalk.

643
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,733
And, the,

644
00:27:04,733 --> 00:27:06,100
the books were very well 
received,

645
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,000
and they even did a film 
of All Upon a Stone.

646
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,333
But the point was that

647
00:27:11,333 --> 00:27:12,633
what it did for the child

648
00:27:12,633 --> 00:27:15,266
and a lot of kids, when I used 
to go out and give this,

649
00:27:15,266 --> 00:27:17,133
would say this, to me,

650
00:27:17,133 --> 00:27:21,133
they never thought that 
you could get down very close

651
00:27:21,133 --> 00:27:24,066
and magnify 
a very small section

652
00:27:24,066 --> 00:27:26,533
and find within it 
a whole world.

653
00:27:26,533 --> 00:27:28,800
So that again,

654
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,500
going back to what we said, 
what illustration does

655
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:33,466
it illuminated the world 
for them.

656
00:27:33,466 --> 00:27:37,633
It made them see what, life 
through another perspective

657
00:27:37,633 --> 00:27:39,766
instead of always, 
3.5 feet off the ground

658
00:27:39,766 --> 00:27:42,000
or how tall they are, 
off the ground

659
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,500
just looking out like that.

660
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,533
Instead, they saw that world 
could be viewed another way.

661
00:27:46,533 --> 00:27:49,733
And I think 
all the best illustrations

662
00:27:49,733 --> 00:27:51,900
that are produced 
do that for a child.

663
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:54,466
They they let them 
see the world.

664
00:27:54,466 --> 00:27:58,700
Through 
an imaginative set of eyes.

665
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:02,100
And, you know, that's

666
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:04,966
I think that the best thing 
that could be said for,

667
00:28:04,966 --> 00:28:08,500
for illustration, I mean, 
that's its real job.

668
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:18,500
♪

669
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:28,500
♪

670
00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:38,500
♪

671
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:46,033
♪

672
00:28:46,033 --> 00:28:50,666
♪