WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:04.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The following program is dedicated to Randolph 00:04.333 --> 00:05.533 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% Caldecott. 00:05.533 --> 00:07.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Born in Chester, England, in 1846, 00:07.900 --> 00:10.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Caldecott illustrated a series of picture books 00:10.300 --> 00:12.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which changed the history of publishing for children. 00:12.900 --> 00:14.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% With wit and style, he devised pictures 00:14.933 --> 00:18.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% which revived many forgotten and overlooked nursery rhymes. 00:18.133 --> 00:20.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% It's hard to forget his frog. Who would a wooing go. 00:20.866 --> 00:22.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% His four and 20 blackbirds. 00:22.366 --> 00:24.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% His rat that ate the malt and his dish. 00:24.700 --> 00:26.533 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Who ran away with the spoon. 00:26.533 --> 00:29.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Caldecott died in 1886 at the age of 39. 00:29.633 --> 00:33.500 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% At the height of his popularity. 00:33.500 --> 00:37.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% You are Cambridge 00:37.100 --> 00:40.600 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and everything I read. 00:40.600 --> 00:42.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Little boy blue. 00:42.266 --> 00:44.566 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% A lady with a shoe and a dish. 00:44.566 --> 00:47.466 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Run off with a spoon. 00:47.466 --> 00:50.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The hickory dickory dock. 00:50.966 --> 00:54.433 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% The scholar. He's late to the school. 00:54.433 --> 00:56.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And I like a cow, 00:56.600 --> 00:58.566 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% I jump over the moon. 00:58.566 --> 01:01.300 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪ 01:09.200 --> 01:11.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Rick> Hi. Welcome to Jump Over the Moon. 01:11.900 --> 01:13.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I'm Rick Seebach, 01:13.100 --> 01:14.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and today we have a very special program 01:14.500 --> 01:15.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about writing, designing 01:15.700 --> 01:18.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and illustrating children's books. 01:18.300 --> 01:19.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% We have two award winning guests 01:19.700 --> 01:22.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% with us, Don Bolognese and Elaine Raphael, 01:22.633 --> 01:24.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% a husband and wife team who've worked together 01:24.600 --> 01:26.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on many children's books. 01:26.566 --> 01:28.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And while they met, while they both were studying 01:28.866 --> 01:31.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% at Cooper Union Art School in New York City, 01:31.233 --> 01:33.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% they've worked individually on many projects 01:33.566 --> 01:36.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and have collaborated on several outstanding books. 01:36.366 --> 01:38.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I just found out that they did the illustrations 01:38.266 --> 01:40.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% for John Gardner's novel October Light, 01:40.800 --> 01:42.566 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% which is an adult book, as well. 01:42.566 --> 01:44.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We're happy to have both of them here today. 01:44.833 --> 01:48.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Elaine> Thank you. >> Thank you very much... 01:48.033 --> 01:49.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Rick> We want to start by asking, first of all, 01:49.933 --> 01:51.200 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% how you got started 01:51.200 --> 01:54.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% in the business of drawing and writing children's books. 01:54.833 --> 01:56.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Elaine> Well, this was really at Cooper Union, 01:56.700 --> 01:59.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% where Don and I met. This was about 30 years ago. 01:59.633 --> 02:02.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And at the school, we were encouraged to work together. 02:02.833 --> 02:05.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was like understanding what the guild, 02:05.266 --> 02:06.966 align:left position:32.5% line:5% size:57.5% the old artist guilds were like. 02:06.966 --> 02:09.400 align:left position:37.5% line:5% size:52.5% And we did many joint projects. 02:09.400 --> 02:11.600 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% And from that, after we were married, 02:11.600 --> 02:13.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we did projects together. 02:13.400 --> 02:15.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Rick> You actually, worked on children's books 02:15.633 --> 02:17.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% while still in art school or just illustrations - 02:17.400 --> 02:18.600 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Elaine> It was part of the program. 02:18.600 --> 02:20.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Children's books- Don> Children's, 02:20.066 --> 02:23.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% children's illustration was one type of illustration. 02:23.933 --> 02:25.733 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% We had a very 02:25.733 --> 02:27.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% strong foundation in art in general, 02:27.800 --> 02:29.233 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% and that was just one 02:29.233 --> 02:31.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of our interests, but we did a lot of other things. 02:31.100 --> 02:33.500 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% But as Elaine said, 02:33.500 --> 02:37.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% much of the class work was very communal 02:37.133 --> 02:40.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and, with the teacher sort of being the master 02:40.900 --> 02:43.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and all the students being apprentices, 02:43.233 --> 02:45.133 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% and very much in the old tradition 02:45.133 --> 02:47.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% of the old studios, the old art guilds. 02:47.600 --> 02:49.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% So the idea of collaboration 02:49.333 --> 02:53.033 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% was something that we learned very early in our careers. 02:53.233 --> 02:54.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Elaine> And the more we collaborated, 02:54.966 --> 02:57.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the more we understood our own artistic nature. 02:57.966 --> 03:00.666 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% And this is I mean, it's really, 03:00.666 --> 03:02.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even if you have to fight and argue 03:02.300 --> 03:05.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% about a situation or design, but you work it out. 03:05.233 --> 03:06.433 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And this is how we learned 03:06.433 --> 03:08.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to do it in school from beginning that way. 03:08.933 --> 03:11.500 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Rick> I'm interested to know about the first book. 03:11.500 --> 03:13.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And was it one of those books that Cooper Union 03:13.900 --> 03:16.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that was actually published, or was it after that? 03:16.633 --> 03:20.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> No. The first, actual book that we, worked on 03:20.433 --> 03:21.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% together was a children's book was called 03:21.933 --> 03:23.566 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% A Sleepy Watchdog. 03:23.566 --> 03:27.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And, it grew out of, a story we were telling our 03:27.466 --> 03:30.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% younger daughter who had the chickenpox. 03:30.233 --> 03:33.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we made up the story to amuse her. 03:33.566 --> 03:37.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And, it grew and developed, and we try to have it 03:37.500 --> 03:40.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% published and was one of those nice things that worked out. 03:40.633 --> 03:42.866 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Rick> Well, let's talk a minute about collaborating. 03:42.866 --> 03:44.200 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Elaine> Okay. 03:44.200 --> 03:49.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% >> You both do the artwork as well as the text of the books. 03:49.266 --> 03:53.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> That's right. We collaborate on both ends of it. 03:53.066 --> 03:57.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Which is sometimes very confusing to people, but, 03:57.233 --> 04:00.000 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% both of us have different strengths. 04:00.000 --> 04:03.066 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% And we, try to 04:03.066 --> 04:05.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% bring each one of us tries to bring their particular 04:05.466 --> 04:08.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% strengths to a project, whatever it is. 04:08.133 --> 04:12.166 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Elaine> I would consider myself more poetical in nature, 04:12.166 --> 04:13.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and Don is more structural. 04:13.866 --> 04:15.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And I'm very concerned about the expression 04:15.800 --> 04:17.100 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% of a book, totally. 04:17.100 --> 04:20.833 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And Don is concerned about the totality in design, 04:20.833 --> 04:23.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and we seem to combine this very well. 04:23.566 --> 04:24.766 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% And at some points 04:24.766 --> 04:27.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we've actually passed the drawing back and forth 04:27.066 --> 04:29.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% so it doesn't look like one or the other. 04:29.700 --> 04:31.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Rick> Well, you make it sound so easy. Is it ever hard? 04:31.900 --> 04:34.933 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Elaine> Well, it's hard, 04:34.933 --> 04:36.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think in the beginning, when we're conceiving 04:36.833 --> 04:38.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% what the expression of the book should be. 04:40.633 --> 04:42.633 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% But then we get past these rough spots. 04:42.633 --> 04:43.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% It really works out very well. 04:43.866 --> 04:46.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And we do many books at the same time, 04:46.033 --> 04:48.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% so we're actually juggling books. 04:48.400 --> 04:51.066 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> We actually have many hats while we're working, you know. 04:51.066 --> 04:54.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And, as Elaine said, one of the more, 04:54.933 --> 04:58.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% the more most difficult part of it is getting into it, because 04:58.433 --> 05:01.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% the conception of the book, trying to interpret 05:01.200 --> 05:03.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what the author has meant and that 05:03.633 --> 05:05.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% interestingly enough, is 05:05.233 --> 05:09.566 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% as true when we're the authors as well as the illustrators, 05:09.566 --> 05:13.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that we have to complement our text 05:13.033 --> 05:16.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% with our illustrations and not just repeat it 05:16.100 --> 05:18.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% so that it becomes a redundancy. 05:18.533 --> 05:20.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> Is one more important than the other, 05:20.100 --> 05:22.933 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% or is the text more important than the pictures, 05:22.933 --> 05:24.900 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% or does it vary with different books. 05:26.100 --> 05:28.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Elaine> Gee I don't know. I don't think it's... 05:28.100 --> 05:32.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I think an illustration is there to illuminate a book 05:32.700 --> 05:35.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it becomes something, something third. 05:35.966 --> 05:38.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% It doesn't stand by itself. It brings it all together, 05:38.700 --> 05:40.800 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% perhaps- >>-for example, 05:40.800 --> 05:43.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Elaine> I can explain it that way. >> They say that, 05:43.533 --> 05:46.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% it should be more than the sum of its parts 05:46.233 --> 05:49.266 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% so that you don't have a text that's, 05:49.266 --> 05:50.866 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% repeated in the illustration, 05:50.866 --> 05:53.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% but when you experience both of them, 05:53.533 --> 05:55.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you have a third thing, as you said. 05:55.800 --> 05:57.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% And, and the best ones, 05:57.700 --> 06:00.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I think that is accomplished, you know, whether we do it 06:00.233 --> 06:02.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% or someone else does it that way. 06:02.166 --> 06:03.700 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Elaine> And we begin with the subject. 06:03.700 --> 06:06.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The subject tells us how we should begin 06:06.066 --> 06:07.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% to explore this book. 06:07.933 --> 06:11.000 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% For instance, we could begin by discussing one of these. 06:11.000 --> 06:12.433 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% Rick> Sam Baker Gone West. 06:14.400 --> 06:18.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> Well, Sam Baker really grew out of, 06:18.533 --> 06:19.833 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% in this case, Elaine's interest 06:19.833 --> 06:21.966 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% in (indiscernible) Tolstoy. 06:21.966 --> 06:24.500 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And she unearthed a story by Tolstoy called... 06:24.500 --> 06:26.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Elaine> How Much 06:26.266 --> 06:27.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Man Does One Man Need? 06:27.700 --> 06:29.366 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% How much Land Does One Man Need? 06:29.366 --> 06:31.366 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Don> Yeah. Elaine> And... 06:31.366 --> 06:34.400 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% George Steiner, a critic of Tolstoy, 06:34.400 --> 06:38.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% said this was this story was the closest thing to, 06:38.100 --> 06:42.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% an American, a Western man 06:42.233 --> 06:44.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% going and conquering nature. Yeah. 06:44.366 --> 06:46.200 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Don> It was >> It was very similar 06:46.200 --> 06:49.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> But Tolstoy wrote it about Russia...Russia. 06:49.033 --> 06:52.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Don> Right. But the similarities were so startling. 06:52.200 --> 06:53.933 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Of course, we had been interested in 06:53.933 --> 06:55.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Americana for a long time. 06:55.400 --> 07:01.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And also the difference in how the Indian, treated, 07:01.766 --> 07:04.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the land and the pioneer treated the land. 07:04.500 --> 07:07.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And so we adapted the story 07:07.866 --> 07:11.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Elaine> and, but a similar thing happened in Russia with the, 07:11.366 --> 07:15.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% they have a nomads on the steps of, in Russia. 07:15.666 --> 07:19.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And when, there was a story that in this particular story, 07:19.266 --> 07:23.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Tolstoy did was that he wanted as much land 07:23.066 --> 07:24.500 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% as he could. He was very greedy. 07:24.500 --> 07:27.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this Indian felt that greed will really undo him. 07:27.666 --> 07:30.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was the same thing that happened in the West, 07:30.466 --> 07:33.900 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% where men wanted to take over the land. 07:33.900 --> 07:37.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And the Indian concept, is one can never own this. 07:37.600 --> 07:40.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So he was willing to go along with this bargain of, 07:40.066 --> 07:42.833 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% yes, you can have as much land as you want, 07:42.833 --> 07:44.600 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% not knowing that it was going to be sold. 07:44.600 --> 07:46.933 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Rick> I thought there was going to be a trick when I read it. 07:46.933 --> 07:52.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And, I was I was surprised at the ending of the book. 07:52.100 --> 07:53.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I'm interested to know if, you know, 07:53.366 --> 07:56.500 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% there was any sort of critical reaction to that ending. 07:56.500 --> 07:59.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Sam Baker dies in the end of Sam Baker Gone West. 07:59.866 --> 08:03.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% When he's finally got as much land as he wants. 08:03.433 --> 08:06.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's exhausted and dies, 08:06.433 --> 08:08.333 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and gets only the six feet 08:08.333 --> 08:10.533 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% of ground that it takes to bury him. 08:10.533 --> 08:13.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> Well, we knew it would be, somewhat controversial. 08:13.433 --> 08:15.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% You don't like to kill off the hero 08:15.766 --> 08:18.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% in a children's book like that, 08:18.366 --> 08:21.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% but it got very good reviews and good response, 08:21.766 --> 08:23.733 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% and it certainly is. 08:23.733 --> 08:28.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Very natural and organic to the way the story goes. 08:28.533 --> 08:30.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Another ending wouldn't have worked out. 08:30.833 --> 08:32.400 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Elaine> And it is an exaggerated... 08:32.400 --> 08:34.366 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% being a fable was an exaggeration 08:34.366 --> 08:37.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% of an illustration of a man bigger than a page 08:37.366 --> 08:38.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% they would normally be. 08:38.800 --> 08:41.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And in all the illustrations is that way. 08:41.833 --> 08:43.100 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% Rick> Well tell me this 08:43.100 --> 08:44.300 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% is certainly at some point 08:44.300 --> 08:46.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% there must have been an idea of Sam Baker 08:46.933 --> 08:49.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that later became an illustration of Sam Baker. 08:49.633 --> 08:51.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Don> And this is a very early, almost 08:51.300 --> 08:53.366 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% benign version of Sam Baker. 08:53.366 --> 08:57.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And you can see that he developed... 08:57.166 --> 08:59.266 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Elaine> This one. Don> into this 08:59.266 --> 09:05.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and then finally into the of (indiscernible) 09:05.000 --> 09:06.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Elaine> this one. 09:06.566 --> 09:09.133 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Don> Well, that's another view of him. 09:09.133 --> 09:14.533 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Elaine> Yeah. Don>This is the final one. 09:14.533 --> 09:18.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And, you know, he's really 09:18.266 --> 09:21.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% quite aggressive and acquisitive in nature, 09:21.800 --> 09:24.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you know, and as he does. 09:24.233 --> 09:25.733 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% But that is one 09:25.733 --> 09:27.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% this is a good example of one approach. 09:27.766 --> 09:30.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And because of the fabulous nature of it 09:30.533 --> 09:34.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and, the Americana, it came out looking like this, 09:34.166 --> 09:39.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% with a very bold and very energetic, style. 09:39.300 --> 09:42.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The other books we've done, are very different. 09:42.800 --> 09:44.100 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% For example, 09:44.100 --> 09:48.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the book, for very young children, Turnabout. 09:48.666 --> 09:51.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But in this book. 09:51.600 --> 09:55.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% We wanted it to be extremely graphic and very simple, 09:55.433 --> 09:57.766 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% because it was for a very young child. 09:57.766 --> 09:59.700 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% We wanted them to grasp the, 09:59.700 --> 10:02.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the message of it very quickly. 10:02.166 --> 10:05.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And it was a humorous folk tale about, folk 10:05.066 --> 10:07.466 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% song of early American pioneer life. 10:07.466 --> 10:12.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Again, our interest has been in that area and 10:12.966 --> 10:14.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% some of this grew out of the research 10:14.633 --> 10:16.566 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% we did for Sam Baker. 10:16.566 --> 10:18.000 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% When we do many of our stories, 10:18.000 --> 10:20.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% especially those that are set in historical, 10:20.766 --> 10:22.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% settings, 10:22.000 --> 10:24.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% we try to research as much as possible 10:24.700 --> 10:28.900 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% so that when the reader enters the book, 10:28.900 --> 10:32.333 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% he doesn't enter a book, only, he enters another dimension. 10:33.766 --> 10:36.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I think people probably understand this very easily 10:36.366 --> 10:37.900 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% when you're talking about films, 10:37.900 --> 10:39.800 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% because we know how important 10:39.800 --> 10:42.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the art direction in the film is to create this world 10:42.766 --> 10:45.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% so that the story has a reality. 10:45.166 --> 10:47.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Elaine> And it's even rather unconscious 10:47.766 --> 10:50.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if it becomes authentic. 10:50.200 --> 10:53.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And you wouldn't even know, but you feel that you're 10:53.233 --> 10:55.733 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in that time and place 10:55.733 --> 10:57.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and that should happen when you pick up the book 10:57.833 --> 11:00.133 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% and you look, especially if it's a star. 11:00.133 --> 11:01.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> Do you find yourself being influenced 11:01.833 --> 11:03.600 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% by other illustrators? 11:03.600 --> 11:06.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Elaine> I think we're influenced by painters and artists 11:06.100 --> 11:07.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% and in general. 11:07.366 --> 11:08.700 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Rick> Yeah, >> I mean, we've 11:08.700 --> 11:10.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% many trips to the museum and, 11:10.333 --> 11:12.800 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% you know, days just walking and looking. 11:12.800 --> 11:14.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> I know from wandering through the children's room 11:14.800 --> 11:17.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% in the library that there are a lot of couples who do this 11:17.833 --> 11:19.033 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% who work together. 11:19.033 --> 11:21.766 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Any idea why? 11:21.766 --> 11:23.566 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% Well, I think, children's books 11:23.566 --> 11:25.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% was originally a cottage industry 11:25.700 --> 11:28.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% where things were done, at home. 11:28.766 --> 11:33.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And, it's really a small quiet, you know, 11:33.100 --> 11:37.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Don> It's a it's not a, fast paced kind of business. 11:37.433 --> 11:41.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% It's something that must be done in quiet and in private. 11:41.266 --> 11:42.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And there's an awful lot of 11:42.866 --> 11:46.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% research and contemplation about it and development 11:46.200 --> 11:48.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% of skills. For example. 11:48.333 --> 11:52.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% What we have laid out here is a fact of the amount of work 11:52.633 --> 11:54.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that we go through whenever we do a book. 11:54.733 --> 11:56.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I mean, it's incredible. 11:56.166 --> 12:00.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% You we have stacks of, of, sketches and 12:01.633 --> 12:04.033 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% dummies, which a dummy is a kind of a 12:04.033 --> 12:05.833 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% rough copy of the whole book. 12:05.833 --> 12:07.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And we do several of these 12:07.700 --> 12:10.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% when we, when we're preparing for this kind of thing. 12:10.300 --> 12:14.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So working together on it is just kind of a very easy 12:14.700 --> 12:16.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and natural thing for us to do. 12:16.400 --> 12:18.933 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Elaine> Stories might come into your head, 12:18.933 --> 12:21.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% you know, as we're talking at the dinner table, 12:22.433 --> 12:25.300 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and then, I could go off and go to the garden, 12:25.300 --> 12:27.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and it's is developing in my head, 12:27.766 --> 12:29.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and I need a lot more quiet time 12:29.600 --> 12:33.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than Don does and I tend to write more than he does. 12:33.100 --> 12:36.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then we get together and we discuss the dialog, 12:36.100 --> 12:37.433 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% if we're writing this. 12:37.433 --> 12:40.000 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% In fact, we play parts in the dialog, 12:40.000 --> 12:42.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and, the last book we just did, in fact, 12:42.733 --> 12:45.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the second one is coming out is, Donkey and Carlo, 12:45.900 --> 12:48.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and we kind of switch roles all the time. 12:48.100 --> 12:50.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And one time I was playing Donkey, 12:50.166 --> 12:52.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and I start to stamp my feet. 12:52.433 --> 12:53.533 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% I mean, it was a natural thing. 12:53.533 --> 12:54.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Like I said, no, you can't do that. 12:54.733 --> 12:55.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And I was stamping... 12:55.933 --> 12:57.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and this is just the this the these characters 12:57.900 --> 13:00.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% develop that way, like, out of friendship. 13:00.166 --> 13:03.800 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% What do you promise each other and how you keep a promise? 13:03.800 --> 13:05.133 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% And he wasn't keeping a promise 13:05.133 --> 13:07.033 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and I was stamping my feet and 13:07.033 --> 13:10.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and we wrote the story around this very small happening, 13:10.966 --> 13:13.133 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% Don> Yeah. That's, that's true. 13:13.133 --> 13:16.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And we, we fight about who's 13:16.133 --> 13:17.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% who in the book, 13:17.300 --> 13:18.633 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% depending on who we think at the moment 13:18.633 --> 13:20.733 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% is the more sympathetic character. 13:20.733 --> 13:23.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> Tell me a little bit about how it all starts. 13:23.266 --> 13:26.933 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Where does where do these ideas come from and how do you know 13:26.933 --> 13:29.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% when the idea is right and worth pursuing? 13:29.133 --> 13:30.333 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Elaine> You want to answer that first? 13:30.333 --> 13:32.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> All right. Well, let's take Donkey and Carlo, 13:32.033 --> 13:33.300 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% that's a good idea. 13:33.300 --> 13:35.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That started with a very 13:35.466 --> 13:38.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% we found an old law about sumptuary law that 13:38.833 --> 13:42.733 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% how people were supposed to, by law, dress in the 1700s. 13:42.733 --> 13:44.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% We wrote a story about that. 13:44.566 --> 13:47.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We sent it to an editor, and she didn't like any of it, 13:47.533 --> 13:52.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% except for one little picture and sentence about 13:52.133 --> 13:54.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Carlo and his donkey, and she said, 13:54.566 --> 13:56.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% if you could write a story that was very natural 13:56.500 --> 13:58.933 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% about how these two interact, 13:58.933 --> 14:01.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I'd love to see it, Elaine> actually, she said, 14:01.166 --> 14:02.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think this is the story right here. 14:02.833 --> 14:05.133 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% And she said, these were two lines. 14:05.133 --> 14:06.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And, she said, why don't you go home 14:06.666 --> 14:08.266 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and think about that Elaine? 14:08.266 --> 14:09.500 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And she was absolutely right. 14:09.500 --> 14:10.700 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% I went home and I thought about 14:10.700 --> 14:12.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% how the story grew from those two lines, 14:12.400 --> 14:14.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and we built the story around it. 14:14.000 --> 14:15.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> So we threw out everything else 14:15.233 --> 14:17.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about the sumptuary laws and everything, 14:17.266 --> 14:19.600 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and we just focused on this 14:19.600 --> 14:21.733 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% developing friendship between these two, 14:21.733 --> 14:24.133 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% creatures, let's call them. 14:24.133 --> 14:27.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And, and that's the way one began, 14:27.933 --> 14:29.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Elaine> Sometimes it's from what 14:29.233 --> 14:31.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% our pictures are in our heads, 14:31.133 --> 14:34.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% sometimes it's from another author's idea. 14:34.666 --> 14:36.500 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% We get his picture. Right? 14:36.500 --> 14:39.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> This is when we illustration for another author. 14:39.466 --> 14:41.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> But I know Turnabout came from a song. 14:41.700 --> 14:44.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Elaine> from a song that we found that we thought was, 14:44.033 --> 14:45.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% was a lot of fun. 14:45.500 --> 14:47.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And it was something very contemporary, 14:47.333 --> 14:50.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the idea of husband and wife sharing work together. 14:50.866 --> 14:52.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Rick> I see, there is a little 14:52.066 --> 14:53.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% collaboration involved there, too. 14:53.266 --> 14:55.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% >> Yes. It's it's like today, what's happening, 14:55.900 --> 14:57.600 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> you know, the reversal of roles. 14:57.600 --> 14:59.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% >> Our children are experiencing this in the home. 14:59.700 --> 15:01.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% We thought this was a good way for them 15:01.633 --> 15:03.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to see how parents work it out. 15:03.866 --> 15:06.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I mean, it's a little tease too, you know, okay, 15:06.766 --> 15:07.966 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Rick> Let's walk around 15:07.966 --> 15:11.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and look at some of these things and talk about the, 15:11.533 --> 15:16.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the various stages that go on after the idea is arrived at. 15:16.400 --> 15:19.266 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> Let's take this one first. Elaine> Okay. 15:19.266 --> 15:22.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Letters to horse face was written by Ferd Monjo 15:22.933 --> 15:26.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and it's a story of Mozart's 15:26.533 --> 15:28.566 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% travels to Italy with his father 15:28.566 --> 15:30.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% when he was very young. 15:30.133 --> 15:33.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Mozart was about 13, and, 15:33.600 --> 15:35.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% he wrote letters to his sister. 15:35.400 --> 15:38.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And like any young, person he was, 15:38.133 --> 15:39.833 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% he teased his sister a lot. 15:39.833 --> 15:43.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But he also included a great deal of information 15:43.266 --> 15:47.533 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% in the, in the, in the letters and the book 15:47.533 --> 15:52.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% was conceived by Elaine as the a journal, 15:52.866 --> 15:56.400 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% a traveler's journal of the 18th century. 15:56.400 --> 15:59.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And everything followed from that, you know? 15:59.833 --> 16:01.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> Okay. So they're not actually letters 16:01.233 --> 16:02.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that were written by Mozart. 16:02.433 --> 16:05.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% They were written by Manjo? Don> Exactly. 16:05.066 --> 16:07.933 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Elaine> He created them. But he did take them out 16:07.933 --> 16:09.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of Mozart's letters. Yes he did. 16:09.566 --> 16:12.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And we kind of thought it would be great to do 16:12.233 --> 16:14.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a, a sketchbook. 16:14.366 --> 16:15.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Like, he would keep a little notebook 16:15.733 --> 16:18.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and do these little sketches of what he saw. 16:18.600 --> 16:19.800 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And we even included 16:19.800 --> 16:21.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% calligraphy like Mozart would have written. 16:21.300 --> 16:24.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Exactly the things on the side here, for example, 16:24.466 --> 16:26.633 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% at the carnival or at the opera. 16:26.633 --> 16:27.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> And now some of these things 16:27.833 --> 16:29.266 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% I can see show progression of drawing. 16:29.266 --> 16:32.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Don> This is just a very simple progression. 16:32.100 --> 16:34.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And it's as I said, oversimplified. 16:34.033 --> 16:36.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We we've eliminated some of the steps, 16:36.066 --> 16:39.233 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% but this is one of the early sketches. 16:39.233 --> 16:41.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% This is another sketch in progress. 16:41.800 --> 16:44.966 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% This is the finished drawing. 16:44.966 --> 16:48.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this is how it looks in the actual book. 16:48.633 --> 16:52.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It's obviously a, almost a pencil like style. 16:52.633 --> 16:55.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And you both draw on this. 16:55.633 --> 16:56.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Elaine> Yes we do, Don> That's right. 16:56.833 --> 16:59.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Elaine> I mean if you, if you ever have seen 16:59.266 --> 17:00.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Dürer's ....work 17:00.466 --> 17:03.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or lot of the sketchbooks have this sepia look 17:03.366 --> 17:04.966 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and they do it with this pencil. 17:04.966 --> 17:09.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So the Conti pencil is sort of orange and we use this 17:09.533 --> 17:11.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it has a watercolor, 17:11.266 --> 17:14.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% technique, a sort of a wash, Don> a little wash of it. Right. 17:14.833 --> 17:17.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Elaine> We would, we would a work, we would design, 17:17.900 --> 17:20.700 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% lay it out like, for instance, here lay out and then, 17:20.700 --> 17:22.933 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% we would pass the drawing back and forth 17:22.933 --> 17:25.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and to sort of work out some of the detail 17:25.666 --> 17:27.066 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% or costuming detail, 17:27.066 --> 17:29.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you know, where buttons and, (indescernible) 17:29.900 --> 17:31.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% which was at that time all they had. 17:31.566 --> 17:33.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Rick> A lot of research involved in it. 17:33.666 --> 17:37.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Elaine> And then this go into the library for a month or two 17:37.566 --> 17:39.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% just finding out and some of the, 17:39.466 --> 17:44.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% things we discovered, for instance, there was this 17:44.500 --> 17:46.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and this part of 17:46.900 --> 17:48.366 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% these were the early sketches we had to 17:48.366 --> 17:50.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% present to the editor, and he would go over, 17:50.933 --> 17:53.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> you see how the how much they changed from, 17:53.466 --> 17:57.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% when, from the final product. 17:57.066 --> 17:58.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% But one thing we did discover, 17:58.800 --> 18:01.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was just by accident, was that 18:01.566 --> 18:03.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we found an old engraving 18:03.833 --> 18:06.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% of the Cathedral of Milan, which was under construction, 18:06.366 --> 18:09.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the facade of which was right at the time. Yeah. 18:09.266 --> 18:10.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Oh, yeah. 18:10.466 --> 18:12.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Right at the time when Mozart was traveling 18:12.433 --> 18:17.033 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% through there and, yeah, it was a nice little bit of history. 18:17.033 --> 18:20.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% It's not such a great bit of news, you know. 18:20.533 --> 18:23.666 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% But on the other hand, it, 18:23.666 --> 18:25.700 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% it sort of fleshes out the whole thing 18:25.700 --> 18:29.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and gives an authenticity to the to the book itself. 18:29.100 --> 18:30.500 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Rick> Well, now this book seems to be 18:30.500 --> 18:32.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% for a little bit older audience than, say, 18:32.333 --> 18:34.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Turnabout or Sam Baker Gone West. 18:34.533 --> 18:36.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Is that a lot different? 18:36.200 --> 18:39.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I mean, illustrating books for an older audience? 18:41.466 --> 18:44.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Don> Actually not, you know, our attitude about illustration 18:44.466 --> 18:48.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% stays the same, whether it's for older or younger children. 18:50.066 --> 18:54.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% It's, Yeah, here's the here's the picture of the, 18:54.333 --> 18:56.800 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% cathedral and the construction. 18:56.800 --> 18:58.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But getting back to the question 18:58.433 --> 18:59.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% of how we consider it, 18:59.933 --> 19:01.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% we do consider it 19:01.066 --> 19:04.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% the age and the age, because younger children, 19:04.500 --> 19:06.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I think, respond more to, 19:06.066 --> 19:10.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% kind of a, a bolder, more easily understood picture. 19:10.600 --> 19:13.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think all the children can take more complexity 19:13.366 --> 19:15.266 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% in, in the pictures. 19:15.266 --> 19:17.200 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% And, we adjust. 19:17.200 --> 19:18.633 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Elaine> Yeah, they seem to enjoy detail. 19:18.633 --> 19:20.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Getting back to this, Ferdinando, 19:20.633 --> 19:22.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I didn't even know that the cathedral was under 19:22.800 --> 19:24.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% construction at the time. 19:24.766 --> 19:26.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% So when we travel, we did, 19:26.700 --> 19:28.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Mozart's tours ourselves, 19:28.233 --> 19:29.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and we discovered 19:29.266 --> 19:30.833 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% that it was under construction, 19:30.833 --> 19:32.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% so we had to change the illustration. 19:32.300 --> 19:34.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We had done a complete drawing of the cathedral, 19:34.933 --> 19:36.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% so we had to put it in 19:36.133 --> 19:37.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% like it was under construction, being built. 19:37.966 --> 19:39.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Rick> So you were actually working with Monjo? 19:39.800 --> 19:41.900 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Elaine> Yes. Rick> Did ever his text change 19:41.900 --> 19:44.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% to match something like this that you found? 19:44.300 --> 19:48.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Don> It might have in one or two small cases, but not sure. 19:48.433 --> 19:50.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Elaine> He was sure he was very generous with his material. 19:50.466 --> 19:51.666 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And we shared a lot. 19:51.666 --> 19:53.466 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Don> Yeah, he had a lot of information. 19:53.466 --> 19:57.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Elaine> He was very concerned about getting everything right. 19:57.300 --> 20:00.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Rick> Is it at all easier to work from someone else's work? 20:00.533 --> 20:02.266 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Elaine> I've no idea. 20:02.266 --> 20:03.666 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Don> I don't think 20:03.666 --> 20:06.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's any general rule about that. No. 20:06.433 --> 20:08.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think the hardest part 20:08.800 --> 20:12.866 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% to say it again is getting the concept, 20:12.866 --> 20:14.466 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% the original concept. 20:14.466 --> 20:16.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And once you have that and you're 20:16.100 --> 20:18.133 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and you're comfortable with it 20:18.133 --> 20:21.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and it's amazing how many things flow from that. 20:21.500 --> 20:23.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% On the other hand, if you get a concept 20:23.800 --> 20:26.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% which is has a real serious flaw 20:26.466 --> 20:28.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and you struggle to adapt 20:28.900 --> 20:32.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the book to this flawed concept, nothing goes right. 20:32.766 --> 20:36.933 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And so we have had instances where, you know, 20:36.933 --> 20:39.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% two thirds through the book they'll scrap everything. 20:39.833 --> 20:41.766 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% As it happened with Turnabout. 20:41.766 --> 20:44.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Turnabout was an excellent example of that. 20:44.033 --> 20:48.733 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Turnabout started out as three folk songs for children. 20:48.733 --> 20:52.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% The young children and the editor kept insisting 20:52.633 --> 20:56.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the three folk songs would should be included, 20:56.633 --> 20:58.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and we kept feeling that the folk song 20:58.933 --> 21:01.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% should be for young children. 21:01.566 --> 21:04.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And as we kept designing the book, we were struggling, 21:04.333 --> 21:07.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% struggling, trying to get these three stories into this book 21:07.433 --> 21:09.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% so that they were coherent to children 21:09.833 --> 21:11.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and they weren't even coherent to us. 21:11.466 --> 21:14.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And so we said there was something wrong. 21:14.200 --> 21:16.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And finally we realized that for the age group, 21:16.666 --> 21:20.333 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% we were really interested in three was too many. 21:20.333 --> 21:22.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And we decided we wanted only one. 21:22.366 --> 21:27.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And we came to a very serious point with the editor. 21:27.200 --> 21:29.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I see, you know, conflict 21:29.800 --> 21:33.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and, it was resolved in a very interesting way. 21:33.666 --> 21:35.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The editor went to another publishing house 21:35.900 --> 21:39.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and a new editor came and took over the project. 21:39.433 --> 21:41.533 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And it just resolved itself. 21:41.533 --> 21:42.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Elaine> Well, she saw it differently. 21:42.700 --> 21:44.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Don> Yeah, she saw it, Rick> I see, 21:44.800 --> 21:47.266 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% and we decide on the one story 21:47.266 --> 21:51.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and going very young and going into, doing it with bears 21:51.233 --> 21:52.633 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% instead of people. 21:52.633 --> 21:54.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Rick> Talk about that for a second. 21:54.400 --> 21:56.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It's something that's, that fascinates me. 21:56.533 --> 21:59.166 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% You know, why is there so much 21:59.166 --> 22:01.900 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% use of animals in a children's book? 22:01.900 --> 22:03.633 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% You know, why aren't these people 22:03.633 --> 22:06.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that's a story about people, but it works with bears, too. 22:06.866 --> 22:08.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I mean, and what made you decide to use bears? 22:10.866 --> 22:12.033 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Elaine> Well, 22:12.033 --> 22:14.966 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% I don't know. I just think we like bears. 22:14.966 --> 22:16.866 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Elaine> Yeah. Don> In Vermont, 22:16.866 --> 22:19.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% we have bears, in the woods, 22:19.333 --> 22:23.800 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and we occasionally see them. 22:23.800 --> 22:26.100 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% That's sort of an a 22:26.100 --> 22:29.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% sort of an unconscious thing, but I, we felt that children 22:29.966 --> 22:34.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% related more to the animals figures as stand-ins. 22:34.033 --> 22:38.066 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And since there was an element of what's the word, 22:38.066 --> 22:43.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% controversy or, I don't know what, 22:43.233 --> 22:46.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% well, controversy in the story itself between the 22:46.233 --> 22:48.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the husband and the wife, we thought that 22:48.200 --> 22:51.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% if we could use the bears, it could be more humorous, too. 22:51.966 --> 22:53.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Because we have the bears 22:53.000 --> 22:54.600 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% doing a lot of slapstick things, 22:54.600 --> 22:56.000 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Elaine> And you could almost laugh at yourself 22:56.000 --> 22:58.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% if you saw yourself as a bear. 22:58.366 --> 22:59.900 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% Rick> Okay. Elaine> Seeing these things. 22:59.900 --> 23:02.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Don> I must say that whether this is true, 23:02.133 --> 23:03.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% whether it works, we don't know. 23:03.466 --> 23:05.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% You know, there's a lot of theories about this, 23:05.766 --> 23:08.266 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but I, for one, don't have any. 23:08.266 --> 23:11.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Elaine> ...the editor encouraged us to do this, you see. 23:11.933 --> 23:13.300 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Rick> Encourage the bears? 23:13.300 --> 23:16.100 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% >> Yes, she did very much. You know, another editor might not. 23:16.100 --> 23:18.533 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Rick> So this is...they weren't they weren't ever people. 23:18.533 --> 23:20.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% They were bears in your mind from the beginning? 23:20.533 --> 23:22.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Elaine> No, first they were they were people. 23:22.466 --> 23:24.600 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% They were very people from the beginning. 23:24.600 --> 23:26.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we had three stories going. 23:26.133 --> 23:28.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And you see, now, this is where an editor plays 23:28.200 --> 23:29.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% a very important part. 23:29.633 --> 23:32.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% They have a vision also has a different vision. 23:32.733 --> 23:35.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And then you have to collaborate with the editor. 23:35.100 --> 23:36.200 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Now some editors make 23:36.200 --> 23:39.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% you have for rain and some feel very strongly 23:39.300 --> 23:40.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and they insist upon certain things. 23:40.800 --> 23:43.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Now she wanted the book to be very, very young. 23:43.300 --> 23:45.700 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So she said, let's do a bear. And I said, fine, 23:45.700 --> 23:48.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% this is good with us because we can laugh at ourselves. 23:48.100 --> 23:49.966 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And then things got funnier, right? 23:49.966 --> 23:51.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Because otherwise we just were serious. 23:51.900 --> 23:54.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And she saw something that we didn't see, 23:54.700 --> 23:56.100 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and it worked out very well. 23:56.100 --> 23:58.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% >> And you decided to do them in linoleum block print? 23:58.500 --> 24:02.900 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Don> Well, the linoleum block, idea came out of 24:02.900 --> 24:06.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% our research into Americana, into early bookmaking, 24:06.133 --> 24:07.433 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% and early bookmaking 24:07.433 --> 24:10.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is almost exclusively black print work. 24:10.300 --> 24:12.166 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Almost all the early books 24:12.166 --> 24:14.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% were printed or reproduced from block prints. 24:14.666 --> 24:16.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Either would print mostly wood prints 24:16.833 --> 24:18.666 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and, woodblock prints. 24:18.666 --> 24:20.266 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% So we thought that was 24:20.266 --> 24:23.700 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% would give it also quality of authenticity 24:23.700 --> 24:25.533 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% because we like when we do a book, 24:25.533 --> 24:26.733 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% we like to give 24:26.733 --> 24:30.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as much as possible, even if it's in a subliminal way. 24:30.933 --> 24:32.733 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% In other words, we're not trying to teach 24:32.733 --> 24:34.300 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% children or parents 24:34.300 --> 24:38.100 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% about American, traditions and art and so on, 24:38.100 --> 24:39.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% but it's there 24:39.566 --> 24:40.900 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% you know, and if you look at it 24:40.900 --> 24:42.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and you look for it or you see something else 24:42.766 --> 24:45.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and you say, oh, you know, that reminds me of what I've seen. 24:45.466 --> 24:48.366 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% It's a nice sort of enrichment. 24:48.366 --> 24:49.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Well, we thought it would be 24:49.566 --> 24:51.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% a good idea to do it that way. 24:51.533 --> 24:55.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Even though we had begun with, watercolor techniques. 24:55.833 --> 24:57.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Rick> These bears look meaner too. 24:57.033 --> 24:58.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (laughs) 24:58.433 --> 25:00.000 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Elaine> I think we're working that out. 25:00.000 --> 25:04.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Yeah, but it went, I think, over a period of time from, 25:04.000 --> 25:05.766 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% color work, just really 25:05.766 --> 25:07.300 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% a very limited color 25:07.300 --> 25:08.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and just really black and white, 25:08.633 --> 25:10.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% because the course of the book, 25:10.466 --> 25:12.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% as I think it came within the last five years, 25:12.833 --> 25:14.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% the cost of the book kept rising. 25:14.966 --> 25:17.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And we had to really change it because of that reason. 25:17.966 --> 25:19.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So to keep the cost down. 25:19.866 --> 25:22.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So we went to just, black and white at one point. 25:22.833 --> 25:26.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% At one point we had we had, played around 25:26.500 --> 25:31.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% with woodblocks or linoleum cuts, which were multicolored, 25:31.200 --> 25:34.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Don> but this is a little interesting side note 25:34.466 --> 25:35.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% to all three books. 25:35.833 --> 25:37.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Each one of these books, believe it 25:37.566 --> 25:39.733 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% or not, took at least three 25:39.733 --> 25:43.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and sometimes four years from beginning to end. 25:43.466 --> 25:45.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Now, we didn't work on these constantly. 25:45.233 --> 25:49.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But between this and the other factor, 25:49.033 --> 25:52.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% it took that long to get them to the point where they 25:52.100 --> 25:53.233 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% they were publishable. 25:53.233 --> 25:55.733 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% You know, we've always tried to experiment 25:55.733 --> 25:57.000 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in dealing with books. 25:57.000 --> 25:59.400 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% And about 1967, 25:59.400 --> 26:00.600 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% I did a doodle, 26:00.600 --> 26:01.933 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% and Elaine was standing over me, 26:01.933 --> 26:03.566 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and she watched this doodle develop. 26:03.566 --> 26:05.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And she said, you know, there's a story in that doodle 26:05.966 --> 26:07.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% was only about that big. 26:07.400 --> 26:09.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And that doodle turned into a 26:09.633 --> 26:11.433 align:left position:45% line:83% size:45% story called Once Upon A Mountain. 26:11.433 --> 26:13.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was the first time I did a book 26:13.400 --> 26:15.533 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% that was made from only one picture. 26:15.533 --> 26:17.333 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% I did a picture about that big, 26:17.333 --> 26:19.766 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and then I did blow ups of each picture. 26:19.766 --> 26:23.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was a little anti-war or a fable about not 26:23.100 --> 26:28.666 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% how silly things lead to a war and was and, it, 26:28.666 --> 26:30.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% it was funny and kids enjoyed it. 26:30.533 --> 26:33.400 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% And, but then it led to 26:33.400 --> 26:36.133 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% I like the idea and Jean George have done 26:36.133 --> 26:37.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% a lot of science work. 26:37.333 --> 26:39.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She won the Newberry for Julie of the Wolves. 26:39.400 --> 26:41.666 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% She did a book called All Upon a Stone, 26:41.666 --> 26:44.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is a science thing about a mole cricket, 26:44.233 --> 26:46.133 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and that I use the same technique 26:46.133 --> 26:48.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% where I took a whole painting. This time, 26:48.033 --> 26:50.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% it was three feet by four feet. 26:50.533 --> 26:53.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And I did again, blow ups of the particular, 26:53.700 --> 26:55.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% of each particular section. 26:55.366 --> 26:56.633 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% And finally we did 26:56.633 --> 26:59.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the last book was called All Upon a Sidewalk, which was, 26:59.466 --> 27:02.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The travels of an ant and a crack in the sidewalk. 27:02.600 --> 27:04.733 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% And, the, 27:04.733 --> 27:06.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the books were very well received, 27:06.100 --> 27:09.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they even did a film of All Upon a Stone. 27:09.000 --> 27:11.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% But the point was that 27:11.333 --> 27:12.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what it did for the child 27:12.633 --> 27:15.266 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and a lot of kids, when I used to go out and give this, 27:15.266 --> 27:17.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% would say this, to me, 27:17.133 --> 27:21.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% they never thought that you could get down very close 27:21.133 --> 27:24.066 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% and magnify a very small section 27:24.066 --> 27:26.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and find within it a whole world. 27:26.533 --> 27:28.800 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% So that again, 27:28.800 --> 27:31.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% going back to what we said, what illustration does 27:31.500 --> 27:33.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it illuminated the world for them. 27:33.466 --> 27:37.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% It made them see what, life through another perspective 27:37.633 --> 27:39.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% instead of always, 3.5 feet off the ground 27:39.766 --> 27:42.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% or how tall they are, off the ground 27:42.000 --> 27:43.500 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% just looking out like that. 27:43.500 --> 27:46.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Instead, they saw that world could be viewed another way. 27:46.533 --> 27:49.733 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% And I think all the best illustrations 27:49.733 --> 27:51.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that are produced do that for a child. 27:51.900 --> 27:54.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% They they let them see the world. 27:54.466 --> 27:58.700 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% Through an imaginative set of eyes. 28:00.900 --> 28:02.100 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And, you know, that's 28:02.100 --> 28:04.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I think that the best thing that could be said for, 28:04.966 --> 28:08.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for illustration, I mean, that's its real job. 28:08.500 --> 28:18.500 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪ 28:18.500 --> 28:28.500 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪ 28:28.500 --> 28:38.500 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪ 28:38.500 --> 28:46.033 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪ 28:46.033 --> 28:50.666 align:left position:50% line:89% size:40% ♪