1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,433 AMNA NAWAZ: The Environmental Protection Agency has finalized a long-awaited set 2 00:00:04,433 --> 00:00:09,433 of regulations regarding proposed limits on fossil-fueled power plant emissions. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,466 But these new rules could mean the end of the coal industry as a source 4 00:00:13,466 --> 00:00:16,400 of electricity generated in the United States. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,766 Stephanie Sy has more. 6 00:00:18,766 --> 00:00:21,266 STEPHANIE SY: Fossil fuel power plants account for more than one 7 00:00:21,266 --> 00:00:24,833 quarter of all greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S. 8 00:00:24,833 --> 00:00:29,833 The Biden administration is trying to crack down on the worst polluters, and that's the remaining 9 00:00:31,866 --> 00:00:35,266 coal-powered plants, which emit the most carbon dioxide. The new EPA rules require 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,133 coal plants to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 90 percent by 2039, or close. 11 00:00:43,233 --> 00:00:48,133 There are about 200 coal-burning power plants and operations in the U.S. And, 12 00:00:48,133 --> 00:00:53,100 last year, coal-fired plants generated a little over 16 percent of the nation's electricity. 13 00:00:54,433 --> 00:00:56,700 For more on these rules and the reactions to them, 14 00:00:56,700 --> 00:01:01,666 I'm joined by Bloomberg's Jennifer Dlouhy, who reports on energy and environmental issues. 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,166 Jennifer, thanks so much for joining the "NewsHour." 16 00:01:05,166 --> 00:01:09,633 As you know, the coal industry has already been in decline for decades in this country. 17 00:01:09,633 --> 00:01:14,633 Will these new rules make an enormous difference when it comes to climate change and public health? 18 00:01:16,900 --> 00:01:19,633 JENNIFER DLOUHY, Bloomberg: Well, we're already expecting about half of the nation's capacity of 19 00:01:19,633 --> 00:01:24,633 coal-fired power to go offline by 2039, which is essentially a stoppage date in this rule as well. 20 00:01:27,533 --> 00:01:31,700 So that's already happening. We're already seeing that decline. This rule, however, 21 00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:36,700 will encourage more coal plants to close. That's clearly an expectation here. And it will do that 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 by basically saying that coal plants, if they want to keep running after January 1, 23 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,333 2039, will have to be capturing nearly all of their greenhouse gas emissions. 24 00:01:49,333 --> 00:01:52,133 And they will have to start doing that, actually, by 2032, 25 00:01:52,133 --> 00:01:57,100 seven years earlier. Those systems are expensive. There are utility owners, 26 00:01:59,266 --> 00:02:02,533 power plant owners that may decide it's simply not wise to expend that much money trying 27 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:08,600 to retrofit an existing coal-fired power plant to keep it operating into the 2040s. 28 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,900 So this will absolutely hasten coal plant retirements that we're already 29 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:17,433 seeing. And it will affect new natural gas plants that are coming online as well. 30 00:02:17,433 --> 00:02:20,266 STEPHANIE SY: You talked about the expense of meeting these standards. 31 00:02:20,266 --> 00:02:25,266 Carbon sequestration is listed in the rules as one way that coal plants, for example, 32 00:02:27,533 --> 00:02:31,666 can reduce their emissions. But where is that technology in being able to meet those targets? 33 00:02:33,433 --> 00:02:36,500 JENNIFER DLOUHY: Carbon capture and technology has been around for decades, 34 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:41,500 and yet it has not been deployed widely at a commercial scale, especially in the power sector. 35 00:02:42,966 --> 00:02:45,933 And that's really one of the big concerns that we're hearing from 36 00:02:45,933 --> 00:02:50,933 power plant owners and from utilities and grid operators right now, is that, 37 00:02:52,766 --> 00:02:55,700 frankly, carbon capture systems may not be ready to deploy at the scale this 38 00:02:55,700 --> 00:03:00,700 rule would require to keep coal plants and even large new gas plants online. 39 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,800 STEPHANIE SY: So, besides coal, one of the new standards, and you mentioned this, 40 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,800 requires that new gas-fired power plants control 90 percent of their carbon pollution. 41 00:03:12,233 --> 00:03:16,333 However, that doesn't apply to existing gas power plants. Why did the Biden decision -- the Biden 42 00:03:18,366 --> 00:03:22,400 administration ultimately decide not to have tougher standards on the gas industry? 43 00:03:24,433 --> 00:03:26,833 JENNIFER DLOUHY: Yes, it really was a matter of pushing that decision off until later. 44 00:03:26,833 --> 00:03:31,133 The administration looked at this rule and looked at some of the inevitable legal challenges to it, 45 00:03:33,566 --> 00:03:36,466 the challenges in designing this measure, and they decided to put off the decision for existing gas 46 00:03:36,466 --> 00:03:41,466 plants and do it as part of a separate rule they're hoping to advance later this year. 47 00:03:43,333 --> 00:03:45,733 That is a big disappointment. There are environmentalists who are really 48 00:03:45,733 --> 00:03:50,500 concerned about getting at not just the new gas plants that will be built, 49 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:55,500 but a huge source of pollution coming from the existing fleet. And, for now, they're going to 50 00:03:57,666 --> 00:04:01,333 have to wait at least another year for that to be completed, for that process to be finished. 51 00:04:03,233 --> 00:04:06,100 STEPHANIE SY: There are also critics of the new rules in the coal industry. And 52 00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:11,100 to hear them talk about it, they say that, when you're really looking at extreme demand, say, 53 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:16,266 on a very cold day or a very hot day, that the most reliable power is still fossil fuel power. 54 00:04:18,933 --> 00:04:23,933 Is there validity to those concerns, as far as what we know about the reliability of renewables? 55 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,866 JENNIFER DLOUHY: Yes, there are very real concerns about 56 00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:29,233 reliability that are being voiced by those interests. 57 00:04:29,233 --> 00:04:33,433 And the EPA, the administration tried to respond to some of those concerns. The rule has a safety 58 00:04:35,633 --> 00:04:39,533 valve, essentially, for demand emergencies. So when power spikes and you really need to have 59 00:04:41,666 --> 00:04:44,466 those coal plants, really gas plants running, they're going to make sure that they have the 60 00:04:44,466 --> 00:04:49,466 ability to keep running under this rule. So that is seen as addressing some of those concerns. 61 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,000 But you're right. This is coming at a time when power demand is expected to grow tremendously, 62 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:00,766 because we have got A.I. demand. We have data centers. We have electrification of our cars. All 63 00:05:03,133 --> 00:05:06,000 of that is going to be requiring more power from the grid. And there are many folks today wondering 64 00:05:08,133 --> 00:05:12,200 if they can get enough renewable zero-emission supplies on the grid in the next few years to 65 00:05:14,266 --> 00:05:18,000 offset what will be a decline of coal power that provides kind of an always-on power source today. 66 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:24,100 STEPHANIE SY: And, quickly, Jennifer, do you believe that these rules will be enacted any 67 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:27,866 time soon? Or are they going to face the same type of legal and political 68 00:05:27,866 --> 00:05:32,066 scrutiny that we have seen other big announcements on carbon emissions face? 69 00:05:32,066 --> 00:05:37,066 JENNIFER DLOUHY: Yes, this is, frankly, the third attempt by the EPA under three 70 00:05:38,966 --> 00:05:42,100 different administrations to set these kind of limits on the power sector. 71 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:47,100 It's difficult to do. It faces inevitable legal challenges. And, frankly, if another -- if 72 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,533 President Trump is elected, this whole effort will probably be a target for elimination or 73 00:05:54,833 --> 00:05:58,866 at least a rollback. The next few years will be a challenge in both the court of -- in legal courts 74 00:06:01,833 --> 00:06:06,200 and in the court of public opinion. And, really, we will see what happens with the election. 75 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,200 This is clearly an attempt by the EPA and even by the folks they were working for in 76 00:06:13,266 --> 00:06:16,900 the industry to create a more durable rule that will stand and last the test of time. 77 00:06:18,533 --> 00:06:19,900 STEPHANIE SY: We will see. 78 00:06:19,900 --> 00:06:22,500 Bloomberg's Jennifer Dlouhy, thank you so much. 79 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:27,500 JENNIFER DLOUHY: Thank you.