1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,400 AMNA NAWAZ: Headlines around higher education this year have centered on protests, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,300 free speech and students safety. But some important changes on the 3 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:12,800 academic and admissions front have gotten less attention, including some schools 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,800 turning back to standardized testing after deciding they would no longer require it. 5 00:00:19,633 --> 00:00:22,466 Paul Solman has that story for our latest series on Rethinking College. 6 00:00:22,466 --> 00:00:24,500 KELLY DAMPHOUSSE, President, Texas State University: I was terrible in math. 7 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:28,366 PAUL SOLMAN: Meet Kelly Damphousse, president of Texas State University in San Marcos. 8 00:00:28,366 --> 00:00:32,400 KELLY DAMPHOUSSE: So I end up going to community college, and I got a 2.54 GPA. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,633 PAUL SOLMAN: When he made it to a four-year school, he was the first in his family, 10 00:00:36,633 --> 00:00:41,600 just like 43 percent of the 34,000 undergrads here at Texas State. 11 00:00:43,366 --> 00:00:45,200 So you're sympathetic to the idea that tests should be optional. 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,433 KELLY DAMPHOUSSE: Yes. Well, yes. If I had had to take the test, 13 00:00:47,433 --> 00:00:49,600 I probably wouldn't have gotten into college. 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,466 PAUL SOLMAN: That test, the SAT, or ACT, which for years most colleges required for admission, 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,433 research having shown test scores correlated with college GPAs. 16 00:01:00,433 --> 00:01:05,400 But during the pandemic, many dropped the requirement. Post-pandemic, Texas 17 00:01:07,533 --> 00:01:10,666 State remains test-optional. And yet retention rates are still rising, while, more than ever: 18 00:01:12,766 --> 00:01:15,766 KELLY DAMPHOUSSE: We look like the state of Texas,the most diverse university in the state. 19 00:01:15,766 --> 00:01:19,433 PAUL SOLMAN: One that welcomes students like the president once was. 20 00:01:19,433 --> 00:01:21,533 KELLY DAMPHOUSSE: We are creating greater opportunities for people 21 00:01:21,533 --> 00:01:24,266 to access the opportunity to get a four-year college degree, 22 00:01:24,266 --> 00:01:28,266 something we know is a life-changing experience for these people. 23 00:01:28,266 --> 00:01:31,266 PAUL SOLMAN: Just 40 minutes away, the University of Texas at Austin, 24 00:01:31,266 --> 00:01:36,266 42,000 undergrads, average SAT 1355 out of 1600. U.T. also went test-optional during COVID, 25 00:01:40,733 --> 00:01:45,333 but it's now reinstated test scores, joining a host of other schools. 26 00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:49,200 Why? Yes, it's already selective, says U.T. president Jay Hartzell. 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,333 JAY HARTZELL, President, The University of Texas at Austin: Anybody who applies from 28 00:01:51,333 --> 00:01:55,733 a Texas high school and is in the top 6 percent of their class is admitted. 29 00:01:55,733 --> 00:01:58,100 PAUL SOLMAN: But, he emphasizes: 30 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:01,466 JAY HARTZELL: That doesn't mean they're admitted to business or finance, for example, or computer 31 00:02:01,466 --> 00:02:06,466 science or liberal arts necessarily. So we use the test scores historically to put them in the right 32 00:02:08,566 --> 00:02:13,200 schools and colleges when they get here, put them in the right spots to ultimately succeed. 33 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,700 PAUL SOLMAN: And reroute some of the automatic admits, 34 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:19,000 though they might have had low test scores, and perhaps others, 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,000 from difficult majors that might frustrate them, he says, even to the point of giving up. 36 00:02:25,433 --> 00:02:28,033 So Hartzell thinks testing can be used compassionately, 37 00:02:28,033 --> 00:02:33,033 and should even improve a crucial objective, graduation rates, now at about 75 percent. 38 00:02:34,866 --> 00:02:36,133 KENDRA STRANGE, Breakthrough Central Texas: I am excited for you both. 39 00:02:36,133 --> 00:02:37,866 PAUL SOLMAN: But Kendra Strange, 40 00:02:37,866 --> 00:02:41,800 who helps low-income students prepare for college, begs to differ. 41 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,766 KENDRA STRANGE: There's so much that goes into deciding what you want to 42 00:02:43,766 --> 00:02:47,100 study in college. And the test score alone doesn't necessarily indicate whether or 43 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:50,900 not a student is going to be successful in one particular career or major. For many students, 44 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:54,400 what you find is, they're picking majors around their passion. 45 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,366 PAUL SOLMAN: And, to Strange, passion inspires grit, which she says is the real key to success. 46 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,600 KENDRA STRANGE: Maybe the student didn't test well. Maybe the student is not good at timed 47 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,766 tests. It shouldn't equate to whether or not I'm going to be a successful as an engineer. 48 00:03:08,766 --> 00:03:12,200 PAUL SOLMAN: Moreover, says admissions coach Yvonne Espinoza. 49 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,833 YVONNE ESPINOZA, College Counselor: Requiring testing can close doors for 50 00:03:15,833 --> 00:03:20,600 those students who don't have access to resources. When test scores are required, 51 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,600 my students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds were much less likely to apply because they 52 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:31,300 would see what colleges were publishing on their Web sites as their average SAT score, 53 00:03:33,233 --> 00:03:37,100 and they were scoring well below that and didn't understand that that was OK 54 00:03:39,133 --> 00:03:42,333 for them because of the schools they went to, because they didn't have access to resources. 55 00:03:44,333 --> 00:03:45,866 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI, Head of Admissions, The University of Texas at Austin: I'm a 56 00:03:45,866 --> 00:03:47,600 first-generation student. My mom didn't graduate high school. 57 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,033 PAUL SOLMAN: Head of admissions and U.T. alum Miguel Wasielewski. 58 00:03:51,033 --> 00:03:56,000 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: My dad didn't go to college. And so we came from a very low-income background. 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,333 PAUL SOLMAN: And so kids like he was are those he cares most about. And not only 60 00:04:00,333 --> 00:04:03,633 can the tests can and not only can the tests help from being overmatched in tough courses, 61 00:04:03,633 --> 00:04:08,633 he says, but, worse, for a school as rich in resources as U.T. Austin, with test-optional: 62 00:04:10,633 --> 00:04:12,600 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: We were not putting somebody into a program that could have 63 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,733 benefited from those resources. So, with the reinstitute of those scores, 64 00:04:16,733 --> 00:04:20,566 we will be able to begin providing that additional support to them. 65 00:04:20,566 --> 00:04:25,566 PAUL SOLMAN: Who is not getting in now because of test scores being required? 66 00:04:27,966 --> 00:04:31,033 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: I would say that there's not a higher likelihood or unlikelihood of 67 00:04:31,033 --> 00:04:35,133 that student getting in. It's just another variable that we have within the application. 68 00:04:35,133 --> 00:04:37,900 PAUL SOLMAN: In fact -- and this is an argument you hear at other universities 69 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:42,900 like MIT that have restored test scores - - more students from poor schools may now 70 00:04:44,866 --> 00:04:48,200 get in when compared to similar students from similar backgrounds in their region. 71 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,133 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: People have in their head things like 1500, 1600 SAT scores. And so a 72 00:04:53,133 --> 00:04:58,000 student that doesn't have that level and maybe has like a 1200 SAT may say, 73 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,866 you know what, I'm not going to submit that information to the university. 74 00:05:00,866 --> 00:05:05,866 But then when we go in and contextually evaluate that student, and we see that they're in the 99th 75 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,066 percentile of their high school with that score, that's a very meaningful figure. 76 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:15,733 PAUL SOLMAN: Moreover, the average high school grade has risen over time, shrinking 77 00:05:15,733 --> 00:05:20,733 the grade range, so-called grade inflation. As a result, grades can mean less than they used to. 78 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,233 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: So while they may have had that 4.0 GPA, they're on the lower end of the 79 00:05:25,233 --> 00:05:30,066 standardized scores. And that helps us to be able to understand that maybe the student is going to 80 00:05:30,066 --> 00:05:32,733 benefit from some resources that we have available here. 81 00:05:32,733 --> 00:05:35,200 PAUL SOLMAN: Like what? 82 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,433 MIGUEL WASIELEWSKI: Things like being able to get placed into programs that puts you with mentors, 83 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,500 being able to sit down with other students and get assistance, assistance with writing, 84 00:05:44,966 --> 00:05:48,900 assistance with tutoring for classes that they're attending. 85 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:52,500 PAUL SOLMAN: At the outreach nonprofit Breakthrough Central Texas, 86 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:57,500 they provide such help to low-income students with college dreams early on. 87 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:01,700 KENDRA STRANGE: In fifth grade, we go into schools across Central Texas and we say, 88 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:05,100 hey, are you the first in your family to go to college? Are you from a traditionally 89 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:08,566 underserved background? Then we want to help you on your journey. 90 00:06:08,566 --> 00:06:10,466 PAUL SOLMAN: Again, Breakthrough's Kendra Strange. 91 00:06:10,466 --> 00:06:14,233 KENDRA STRANGE: We recognize that food insecurity, housing insecurity, 92 00:06:14,233 --> 00:06:18,033 mental health support, students can't think about performing well in school 93 00:06:18,033 --> 00:06:21,800 if they're not eating. And so we support our students with wraparound services. 94 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,900 PAUL SOLMAN: Students like high school senior Samuel Bautista-Zamora. 95 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:29,133 SAMUEL BAUTISTA-ZAMORA, Student: My parents migrated from Mexico. I think they barely 96 00:06:29,133 --> 00:06:33,766 graduated middle school, and they were just like, we really can't help you with this. 97 00:06:33,766 --> 00:06:36,633 PAUL SOLMAN: He worried about taking the SAT because: 98 00:06:36,633 --> 00:06:38,633 SAMUEL BAUTISTA-ZAMORA: Well, SAT plays everybody in the -- puts everybody in 99 00:06:38,633 --> 00:06:43,400 the same field technically, but it's like some might have more resources. 100 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,266 Some might pay for private tutors, which, unfortunately, we don't have that luxury. 101 00:06:47,266 --> 00:06:50,733 So, we -- I had to look for my own resources, 102 00:06:50,733 --> 00:06:54,833 spend time while balancing a job, taking care of my siblings, and still trying to 103 00:06:54,833 --> 00:06:59,833 do extracurriculars to boost my resume to be able to get to these schools without these SAT scores. 104 00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:05,233 PAUL SOLMAN: But Bautista-Zamora took the test, got a 1060 the first time, 105 00:07:05,233 --> 00:07:10,233 then 1160, then 1310, but that last one was too late, so he submitted no scores, figuring: 106 00:07:13,866 --> 00:07:17,333 SAMUEL BAUTISTA-ZAMORA: My extracurriculars and my grades reflected better. 107 00:07:17,333 --> 00:07:19,466 PAUL SOLMAN: And he got into U.T. Austin. 108 00:07:19,466 --> 00:07:23,300 High school junior Terrance Taylor Johnson is looking at U.T. too. 109 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:25,300 TERRANCE TAYLOR JOHNSON, Student: I think my chances are pretty good. 110 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:28,466 I just need to focus on my test scores more. I averaged 1080 on the -- I mean, 111 00:07:28,466 --> 00:07:32,333 1060 on the first run, and so I need to do better on the next one. 112 00:07:32,333 --> 00:07:37,333 PAUL SOLMAN: How did you feel during the test? Did you -- were you nervous? Were you not nervous? 113 00:07:39,466 --> 00:07:42,866 TERRANCE TAYLOR JOHNSON: I was nervous because, on the PSAT, I had got an 830. But then, 114 00:07:42,866 --> 00:07:46,166 as soon as I saw my test score, I was actually pretty happy how high it jumped. 115 00:07:46,166 --> 00:07:50,266 PAUL SOLMAN: Jumped just above the national average of 1050. 116 00:07:50,266 --> 00:07:54,233 Back on campus at U.T., freshman Aniya Matthews, 117 00:07:54,233 --> 00:07:58,533 who arrived here with a relatively low score for Austin, 1090. 118 00:07:58,533 --> 00:08:02,233 ANIYA MATTHEWS, College Student: Some of my peers have thousand-dollar tutors they get 119 00:08:02,233 --> 00:08:07,233 for their SATs. Now, me, I come from a low-income background, so there wasn't no help on that SAT. 120 00:08:08,533 --> 00:08:10,466 PAUL SOLMAN: What were you applying for your major? 121 00:08:10,466 --> 00:08:12,333 ANIYA MATTHEWS: I wanted to be a medical laboratory scientist. But thank God I 122 00:08:12,333 --> 00:08:15,200 didn't get into that, because I realize that I do not like STEM. 123 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:20,200 PAUL SOLMAN: So the fact that they discouraged you from what you were 124 00:08:22,233 --> 00:08:26,233 originally going to go into it, maybe on the basis of your SAT, was a good thing? 125 00:08:28,133 --> 00:08:32,500 ANIYA MATTHEWS: Yes, but I feel like, though, I feel like, when it comes to 126 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:36,733 some students who have maybe a lower score who genuinely have a passion and want to go into, 127 00:08:36,733 --> 00:08:41,733 like, engineering, I do feel as though they definitely don't have that shot sometimes. 128 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,300 PAUL SOLMAN: And thus the question colleges face with requiring tests: Are they more or less likely 129 00:08:49,433 --> 00:08:53,300 to discourage the disadvantaged from pursuing their passion or even applying, weighed against 130 00:08:55,566 --> 00:08:58,900 signals that could help with admission, lead to savvier placement, and more resources to succeed? 131 00:09:01,133 --> 00:09:06,133 For the "PBS NewsHour," Paul Solman in Central Texas.