WEBVTT 00:01.800 --> 00:03.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Here in the U.S., the Trump administration is moving at 00:03.233 --> 00:06.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a breakneck pace, targeting agencies and slashing 00:06.200 --> 00:11.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the federal work force. And one man is orchestrating it all, Elon Musk. 00:12.533 --> 00:14.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Currently the richest man in the world, Musk has 00:14.500 --> 00:17.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% been given access to critical systems across the federal government. Today, 00:17.900 --> 00:22.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said Musk could decide for himself if any 00:22.666 --> 00:27.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% government funds that his team has access to are in conflict with his business interests. 00:29.466 --> 00:31.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary: If Elon Musk comes across 00:31.666 --> 00:35.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a conflict of interest with the contracts and the funding that DOGE is overseeing, then Elon 00:37.200 --> 00:40.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% will excuse himself from those contracts. And he has, again, abided by all applicable laws. 00:42.266 --> 00:45.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Alarmed by Musk's influence and growing control, House Democrats on the 00:45.733 --> 00:50.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Oversight Committee attempted to subpoena Musk, but were blocked today by House Republicans. 00:52.633 --> 00:54.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Our Laura Barron-Lopez has been covering the latest, and she joins us now. 00:54.600 --> 00:57.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Laura, Musk and his team, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, 00:57.833 --> 01:00.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are moving very fast. Bring us up to date. 01:00.233 --> 01:05.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Since Monday, how many more agencies and government systems has he gained access to? 01:07.200 --> 01:10.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, to date, Musk and his team have accessed at least 11 agencies, Amna. 01:12.800 --> 01:16.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the count is growing every day. So that includes USAID, Treasury, Education Department, 01:18.366 --> 01:22.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FAA, FBI. And what does that mean? That means that, with access to these agencies, 01:24.266 --> 01:28.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he has access to the government's biggest payment systems, to personnel information, 01:30.200 --> 01:33.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to the personal information of many Americans, H.R. systems, and much more. 01:35.800 --> 01:39.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The New York Times also recently reported that DOGE has access to the Center -- Centers for 01:39.066 --> 01:44.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Medicare and Medicaid Services, which has contracts totaling in $1 trillion. 01:46.166 --> 01:48.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, now, we asked the White House about all this access. And the White House claims that 01:48.666 --> 01:53.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Musk and DOGE have -- quote -- "the appropriate security clearances" and that DOGE employees 01:55.700 --> 01:59.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are employees of relevant agencies. But it's not just about gaining access, Amna. 01:59.866 --> 02:04.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Elon Musk has also gleefully tweeted on X about dismantling entire agencies 02:06.333 --> 02:09.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% beyond USAID, including the Education Department. 02:09.133 --> 02:11.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: You have been reporting on this issue of Musk and his team 02:11.266 --> 02:14.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% granting -- getting access to the Treasury payment systems. What 02:14.800 --> 02:18.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% does that mean? Do we know if he has power to stop payments, for example? 02:18.600 --> 02:20.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Treasury Secretary Scott 02:20.533 --> 02:24.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Bessent says that Elon Musk and DOGE have -- quote -- "read-only access." 02:26.833 --> 02:30.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But the White House has not directly answered if Elon Musk and DOGE have the power 02:30.066 --> 02:34.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to stop a number of these payments that go out of that system at the 02:34.233 --> 02:39.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Treasury Department. The White House press secretary today seemed to imply that he might, 02:39.200 --> 02:43.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% citing some very specific payments that DOGE itself was stopping. 02:43.833 --> 02:48.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But a source familiar that I talked to who was familiar with what happened during the 02:50.966 --> 02:54.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% transition said that members of Musk's team were asking the Treasury's Bureau of Fiscal 02:54.433 --> 02:58.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Service if they could stop payments that were going through that system 02:58.766 --> 03:03.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that DOGE wanted information and access to the underlying code of that system, Amna. 03:03.400 --> 03:06.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: So what could all that mean? What are the implications of that kind of access? 03:06.533 --> 03:09.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: I spoke to Natasha Sarin. She's a former Treasury official during the 03:09.800 --> 03:14.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Biden administration. And she said that Musk and DOGE's access, which DOGE -- the DOGE team 03:16.566 --> 03:20.266 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% has a number of 19-to-24-year-olds who have no government experience. 03:20.266 --> 03:23.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% She said their access poses a risk. 03:23.733 --> 03:25.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NATASHA SARIN, Former Treasury Department Appointee: I would think about it as like 03:25.966 --> 03:29.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a data security, cybersecurity risks, right, risks of private information about individuals 03:32.233 --> 03:35.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% like their Social Security numbers, their bank account information, getting out to the public. 03:35.200 --> 03:39.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I would think of another category of risks is national security risks. So you're making it 03:39.866 --> 03:44.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% more possible for our adversaries -- the less secure this data is and this infrastructure is, 03:46.666 --> 03:49.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the more possible it is for our adversaries to be able to manipulate it. 03:49.200 --> 03:54.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, just to hammer it home, Amna, Natasha said that means that DOGE 03:54.133 --> 03:58.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% has access to Social Security numbers, direct deposit bank accounts for everyday Americans. 03:58.566 --> 04:02.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And we should note that a federal judge did indicate today that he may issue a 04:02.466 --> 04:06.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% temporary restraining order against DOGE's ability to access those payment systems. 04:06.966 --> 04:10.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Laura, what do we know about why Musk and DOGE have been 04:10.200 --> 04:14.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% given this kind of apparently unfettered access to these government systems? Elon 04:14.800 --> 04:18.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Musk has said pretty publicly that his goal is to cut the 04:18.866 --> 04:23.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% deficit by stopping all of these improper payments. But he's made a lot of sweeping 04:23.066 --> 04:28.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% accusations without any evidence, calling USAID payments, they are just totally corrupt. 04:30.200 --> 04:32.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He claims that the Bureau of Fiscal Service - - that's that Treasury payment system we're 04:32.166 --> 04:35.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% talking about -- that they have never stopped improper payments. Well, experts 04:35.100 --> 04:40.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that we talked to say that that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what those civil servants do. 04:42.233 --> 04:44.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% They're only responsible for cutting checks. They are not responsible for vetting the payments at 04:44.866 --> 04:49.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all. That happens at the agency level. And so there is a concern amongst government workers 04:49.733 --> 04:54.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that Elon Musk is essentially claiming and creating a head fake, saying that he -- that 04:56.566 --> 04:59.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% there are all these improper payments going out of the federal government, 05:01.833 --> 05:04.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and claiming that essentially is a permission structure to then eventually stop payments. 05:04.300 --> 05:07.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: In the big picture here, we have seen Musk gain access, get control of these 05:07.500 --> 05:12.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% systems. Help us understand the influence. What kind of a takeover is this we're seeing? 05:14.300 --> 05:15.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, some of the experts that we talked to say 05:15.866 --> 05:17.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that there's a name for this. And that name is state capture. 05:17.766 --> 05:20.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% What is state capture? It's when a wealthy individual like Elon Musk is 05:20.533 --> 05:24.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% able to capture the mechanisms of government, gain control of them, 05:24.700 --> 05:29.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and then potentially manipulate them for their personal gain. And I spoke to Tyler McBrien, 05:29.300 --> 05:34.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the managing editor at Lawfare, who said that state capture practically works like this. 05:36.500 --> 05:39.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% TYLER MCBRIEN, Managing Editor, Lawfare: It's rewriting the rules of the game in terms of law 05:39.100 --> 05:44.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and policy. It's capturing administrative decisions through appointments, budgeting, 05:46.233 --> 05:49.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% things like that. And then it's attacking these accountability structures, so the 05:52.166 --> 05:55.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% inspectors general, any sort of congressional oversight that should happen, the media as well. 05:57.600 --> 05:59.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You see this now with certain government 05:59.800 --> 06:04.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% agencies only reporting things on X and no longer issuing press releases. 06:06.266 --> 06:08.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: He mentioned inspectors general. A lot of 06:08.466 --> 06:10.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% inspectors general are gone now because the Trump administration put them on leave. 06:10.800 --> 06:15.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One of the only ways, he said, to stop state capture is public awareness. And we saw today 06:17.533 --> 06:21.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that there were a lot of protests in backlash. There -- across D.C., 06:21.666 --> 06:26.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% outside of the Capitol, hundreds protested the dismantling of USAID. And you hear 06:26.466 --> 06:31.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% them talking about -- chanting against Elon Musk there, Amna. 06:33.466 --> 06:36.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So that is potentially one of the only ways that state capture could be stopped. 06:37.800 --> 06:39.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Laura Barron-Lopez, thank you. 06:39.233 --> 06:40.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.