1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:03,233 AMNA NAWAZ: Here in the U.S., the Trump administration is moving at 2 00:00:03,233 --> 00:00:06,200 a breakneck pace, targeting agencies and slashing 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:11,200 the federal work force. And one man is orchestrating it all, Elon Musk. 4 00:00:12,533 --> 00:00:14,500 Currently the richest man in the world, Musk has 5 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:17,900 been given access to critical systems across the federal government. Today, 6 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:22,666 White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said Musk could decide for himself if any 7 00:00:22,666 --> 00:00:27,666 government funds that his team has access to are in conflict with his business interests. 8 00:00:29,466 --> 00:00:31,666 KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary: If Elon Musk comes across 9 00:00:31,666 --> 00:00:35,000 a conflict of interest with the contracts and the funding that DOGE is overseeing, then Elon 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,200 will excuse himself from those contracts. And he has, again, abided by all applicable laws. 11 00:00:42,266 --> 00:00:45,733 AMNA NAWAZ: Alarmed by Musk's influence and growing control, House Democrats on the 12 00:00:45,733 --> 00:00:50,700 Oversight Committee attempted to subpoena Musk, but were blocked today by House Republicans. 13 00:00:52,633 --> 00:00:54,600 Our Laura Barron-Lopez has been covering the latest, and she joins us now. 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,833 Laura, Musk and his team, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, 15 00:00:57,833 --> 00:01:00,233 are moving very fast. Bring us up to date. 16 00:01:00,233 --> 00:01:05,133 Since Monday, how many more agencies and government systems has he gained access to? 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,700 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, to date, Musk and his team have accessed at least 11 agencies, Amna. 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,333 And the count is growing every day. So that includes USAID, Treasury, Education Department, 19 00:01:18,366 --> 00:01:22,100 FAA, FBI. And what does that mean? That means that, with access to these agencies, 20 00:01:24,266 --> 00:01:28,400 he has access to the government's biggest payment systems, to personnel information, 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,700 to the personal information of many Americans, H.R. systems, and much more. 22 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,066 The New York Times also recently reported that DOGE has access to the Center -- Centers for 23 00:01:39,066 --> 00:01:44,066 Medicare and Medicaid Services, which has contracts totaling in $1 trillion. 24 00:01:46,166 --> 00:01:48,666 And, now, we asked the White House about all this access. And the White House claims that 25 00:01:48,666 --> 00:01:53,633 Musk and DOGE have -- quote -- "the appropriate security clearances" and that DOGE employees 26 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:59,866 are employees of relevant agencies. But it's not just about gaining access, Amna. 27 00:01:59,866 --> 00:02:04,833 Elon Musk has also gleefully tweeted on X about dismantling entire agencies 28 00:02:06,333 --> 00:02:09,133 beyond USAID, including the Education Department. 29 00:02:09,133 --> 00:02:11,266 AMNA NAWAZ: You have been reporting on this issue of Musk and his team 30 00:02:11,266 --> 00:02:14,800 granting -- getting access to the Treasury payment systems. What 31 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,600 does that mean? Do we know if he has power to stop payments, for example? 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,533 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Treasury Secretary Scott 33 00:02:20,533 --> 00:02:24,800 Bessent says that Elon Musk and DOGE have -- quote -- "read-only access." 34 00:02:26,833 --> 00:02:30,066 But the White House has not directly answered if Elon Musk and DOGE have the power 35 00:02:30,066 --> 00:02:34,233 to stop a number of these payments that go out of that system at the 36 00:02:34,233 --> 00:02:39,200 Treasury Department. The White House press secretary today seemed to imply that he might, 37 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,833 citing some very specific payments that DOGE itself was stopping. 38 00:02:43,833 --> 00:02:48,833 But a source familiar that I talked to who was familiar with what happened during the 39 00:02:50,966 --> 00:02:54,433 transition said that members of Musk's team were asking the Treasury's Bureau of Fiscal 40 00:02:54,433 --> 00:02:58,766 Service if they could stop payments that were going through that system 41 00:02:58,766 --> 00:03:03,400 and that DOGE wanted information and access to the underlying code of that system, Amna. 42 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,533 AMNA NAWAZ: So what could all that mean? What are the implications of that kind of access? 43 00:03:06,533 --> 00:03:09,800 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: I spoke to Natasha Sarin. She's a former Treasury official during the 44 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,800 Biden administration. And she said that Musk and DOGE's access, which DOGE -- the DOGE team 45 00:03:16,566 --> 00:03:20,266 has a number of 19-to-24-year-olds who have no government experience. 46 00:03:20,266 --> 00:03:23,733 She said their access poses a risk. 47 00:03:23,733 --> 00:03:25,966 NATASHA SARIN, Former Treasury Department Appointee: I would think about it as like 48 00:03:25,966 --> 00:03:29,900 a data security, cybersecurity risks, right, risks of private information about individuals 49 00:03:32,233 --> 00:03:35,200 like their Social Security numbers, their bank account information, getting out to the public. 50 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,866 I would think of another category of risks is national security risks. So you're making it 51 00:03:39,866 --> 00:03:44,866 more possible for our adversaries -- the less secure this data is and this infrastructure is, 52 00:03:46,666 --> 00:03:49,200 the more possible it is for our adversaries to be able to manipulate it. 53 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,133 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, just to hammer it home, Amna, Natasha said that means that DOGE 54 00:03:54,133 --> 00:03:58,566 has access to Social Security numbers, direct deposit bank accounts for everyday Americans. 55 00:03:58,566 --> 00:04:02,466 And we should note that a federal judge did indicate today that he may issue a 56 00:04:02,466 --> 00:04:06,966 temporary restraining order against DOGE's ability to access those payment systems. 57 00:04:06,966 --> 00:04:10,200 AMNA NAWAZ: Laura, what do we know about why Musk and DOGE have been 58 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,800 given this kind of apparently unfettered access to these government systems? Elon 59 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,866 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Musk has said pretty publicly that his goal is to cut the 60 00:04:18,866 --> 00:04:23,066 deficit by stopping all of these improper payments. But he's made a lot of sweeping 61 00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:28,066 accusations without any evidence, calling USAID payments, they are just totally corrupt. 62 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,166 He claims that the Bureau of Fiscal Service - - that's that Treasury payment system we're 63 00:04:32,166 --> 00:04:35,100 talking about -- that they have never stopped improper payments. Well, experts 64 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:40,100 that we talked to say that that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what those civil servants do. 65 00:04:42,233 --> 00:04:44,866 They're only responsible for cutting checks. They are not responsible for vetting the payments at 66 00:04:44,866 --> 00:04:49,733 all. That happens at the agency level. And so there is a concern amongst government workers 67 00:04:49,733 --> 00:04:54,733 that Elon Musk is essentially claiming and creating a head fake, saying that he -- that 68 00:04:56,566 --> 00:04:59,633 there are all these improper payments going out of the federal government, 69 00:05:01,833 --> 00:05:04,300 and claiming that essentially is a permission structure to then eventually stop payments. 70 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:07,500 AMNA NAWAZ: In the big picture here, we have seen Musk gain access, get control of these 71 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:12,500 systems. Help us understand the influence. What kind of a takeover is this we're seeing? 72 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:15,866 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, some of the experts that we talked to say 73 00:05:15,866 --> 00:05:17,766 that there's a name for this. And that name is state capture. 74 00:05:17,766 --> 00:05:20,533 What is state capture? It's when a wealthy individual like Elon Musk is 75 00:05:20,533 --> 00:05:24,700 able to capture the mechanisms of government, gain control of them, 76 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:29,300 and then potentially manipulate them for their personal gain. And I spoke to Tyler McBrien, 77 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:34,300 the managing editor at Lawfare, who said that state capture practically works like this. 78 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:39,100 TYLER MCBRIEN, Managing Editor, Lawfare: It's rewriting the rules of the game in terms of law 79 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:44,100 and policy. It's capturing administrative decisions through appointments, budgeting, 80 00:05:46,233 --> 00:05:49,866 things like that. And then it's attacking these accountability structures, so the 81 00:05:52,166 --> 00:05:55,500 inspectors general, any sort of congressional oversight that should happen, the media as well. 82 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,800 You see this now with certain government 83 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:04,800 agencies only reporting things on X and no longer issuing press releases. 84 00:06:06,266 --> 00:06:08,466 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: He mentioned inspectors general. A lot of 85 00:06:08,466 --> 00:06:10,800 inspectors general are gone now because the Trump administration put them on leave. 86 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,800 One of the only ways, he said, to stop state capture is public awareness. And we saw today 87 00:06:17,533 --> 00:06:21,666 that there were a lot of protests in backlash. There -- across D.C., 88 00:06:21,666 --> 00:06:26,466 outside of the Capitol, hundreds protested the dismantling of USAID. And you hear 89 00:06:26,466 --> 00:06:31,466 them talking about -- chanting against Elon Musk there, Amna. 90 00:06:33,466 --> 00:06:36,633 So that is potentially one of the only ways that state capture could be stopped. 91 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,233 AMNA NAWAZ: Laura Barron-Lopez, thank you. 92 00:06:39,233 --> 00:06:40,100 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.