1
00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,633
AMNA NAWAZ: Also today, 
President Trump# 
signed orders to impose 25 
percent tariffs##

2
00:00:04,633 --> 00:00:10,733
on all steel and aluminum 
imports to the U.S.# 
Two key American allies, Canada 
and Mexico,##

3
00:00:10,733 --> 00:00:15,200
would be significantly impacted. 
But so# 
would American businesses and 
consumers.

4
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:20,266
For more, I'm joined by Greg Ip, 
chief economics# 
commentator at The Wall Street 
Journal.

5
00:00:20,266 --> 00:00:21,833
Greg, welcome back. It's good to 
see you.

6
00:00:21,833 --> 00:00:26,966
Let's start with this 
announcement then of# 
25 percent steel and aluminum 
..

7
00:00:26,966 --> 00:00:33,400
days ago, you wrote in your 
column that the# 
early verdict on tariffs was bad 
economics,##

8
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:40,300
better politics. Does this 
latest# 
announcement here fit in with 
that pattern?

9
00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:40,833
GREG IP, The Wall Street 
Journal: Well,##

10
00:00:40,833 --> 00:00:43,766
only time will tel..

11
00:00:43,766 --> 00:00:50,600
We know from Trump's first term 
that, when he# 
imposed similar tariffs on steel 
and aluminum,##

12
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,200
the result was to create some 
additional# 
domestic production and jobs in 
the steel##

13
00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,166
and aluminum industries, but to# 
significantly raise costs and 
cause##

14
00:01:00,166 --> 00:01:05,166
a lot of harm in the industries# 
that consume steel and aluminum.

15
00:01:05,166 --> 00:01:08,966
And that harm was compounded 
when# 
our trading partners 
retaliated##

16
00:01:08,966 --> 00:01:14,000
against those tariffs. And so 
the net# 
effect was an economic negative. 
Now,##

17
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,333
fast-forward to today. When 
President Trump a# 
week earlier said that he was 
going to impose##

18
00:01:19,333 --> 00:01:25,433
25 percent tariffs on Canada and 
Mexico, we saw# 
a very negative reaction in the 
stock market.

19
00:01:25,433 --> 00:01:27,966
That too suggests that investors 
expect that##

20
00:01:27,966 --> 00:01:31,733
the net effect on the economy 
of# 
these tariffs will be negative.

21
00:01:31,733 --> 00:01:35,133
AMNA NAWAZ: We should point out 
too that# 
there's an intention here to 
target China##

22
00:01:35,133 --> 00:01:39,866
in some way. China is not one of 
the top# 
steel or aluminum suppliers to 
the U.S.

23
00:01:39,866 --> 00:01:43,733
And there are already existing 
tariffs on# 
Chinese steel and aluminum even 
from the##

24
00:01:43,733 --> 00:01:51,633
previous administration. So how 
would this latest# 
potential move here, how could 
that impact China?

25
00:01:51,633 --> 00:01:55,400
GREG IP: So I think that the --# 
certainly, Trump's first 
administration,##

26
00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,933
and to some extent the Biden 
administration, made# 
a distinction between China and 
everybody else.

27
00:02:00,933 --> 00:02:04,200
There was a recognition that 
China was# 
a strategic competitor to the 
United##

28
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,833
States and that it did not 
adhere to the# 
rules of global trade as other 
countries##

29
00:02:09,833 --> 00:02:14,166
understand it. And so there was 
a better# 
case for imposing high tariffs 
on China,##

30
00:02:14,166 --> 00:02:18,166
notwithstanding the harm that 
that would# 
cause to those who import things 
from China.

31
00:02:18,166 --> 00:02:21,433
In this case, the president is 
not# 
really making that distinction. 
He's##

32
00:02:21,433 --> 00:02:25,266
saying tariffs on everybody, 
whether or# 
not you're an ally. And that's 
because##

33
00:02:25,266 --> 00:02:29,666
the motive here is to try and 
protect# 
the U.S. steel and aluminum 
industries.

34
00:02:29,666 --> 00:02:35,366
Now, to be sure, China, even 
though it's not the# 
specific -- it's not being 
singled out in these##

35
00:02:35,366 --> 00:02:40,333
tariffs, it's sort of there in 
the background,# 
because one of the concerns that 
folks have had##

36
00:02:40,333 --> 00:02:46,633
about tariffs and about China in 
the past is that,# 
even when there are tariffs on 
Chinese steel,##

37
00:02:46,633 --> 00:02:51,266
it comes in through third 
countries, where# 
China sells steel cheaply to one 
country.

38
00:02:51,266 --> 00:02:55,600
That country's industry suffers, 
and it# 
sells its steel to the United 
States. So##

39
00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,266
there might be in a roundabout 
way an# 
effort to get at China. But that 
is,##

40
00:02:59,266 --> 00:03:03,233
I think, kind of secondary. What 
Trump is# 
saying here is, he is willing to 
impose very##

41
00:03:03,233 --> 00:03:07,666
high tariffs indefinitely to 
protect# 
industries that are important to 
him.

42
00:03:07,666 --> 00:03:12,033
AMNA NAWAZ: Is it clear to you, 
though, what the# 
actual goal is here for the 
Trump administration,##

43
00:03:12,033 --> 00:03:19,100
especially when it comes to 
Canada and Mexico,# 
the other tariffs that he's 
postponed as well?

44
00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:23,600
GREG IP: Well, Trump's adviser 
has put# 
forth many different 
justifications for##

45
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,366
tariffs. They will tell you, 
for# 
example, that there's a 
difference##

46
00:03:26,366 --> 00:03:30,933
between tariffs that are 
intended# 
for negotiation or punitive 
tariffs.

47
00:03:30,933 --> 00:03:34,866
That's the tariffs that were 
threatened# 
against Mexico and Canada as a 
way to get##

48
00:03:34,866 --> 00:03:40,133
them to act on American concerns 
about the inflow# 
of illegal migrants and 
fentanyl. And then there's##

49
00:03:40,133 --> 00:03:45,033
a different bucket, which they 
call structural# 
tariffs or strategic tariffs. 
And these are kind##

50
00:03:45,033 --> 00:03:49,633
of indefinite. And they're meant 
to inculcate# 
long-term economic and political 
changes,##

51
00:03:49,633 --> 00:03:55,433
such as strengthening the U.S. 
manufacturing base# 
or raising revenue that can help 
pay for tax cuts.

52
00:03:55,433 --> 00:03:59,166
So the tariffs that were 
punished --# 
threatened against Mexico and 
Canada a##

53
00:03:59,166 --> 00:04:03,600
week ago fall into that first 
bucket. They were# 
not, at least if you listen to 
the president,##

54
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,533
intended to be there forever, 
just# 
long enough until Mexico and 
Canada##

55
00:04:07,533 --> 00:04:11,466
did act. And it appears that 
they# 
are acting on American concerns.

56
00:04:11,466 --> 00:04:15,466
The tariffs that the president 
announced# 
today on steel and aluminum and 
the ones##

57
00:04:15,466 --> 00:04:19,366
that he said are coming, the 
so-called# 
reciprocal tariffs on 
everybody,##

58
00:04:19,366 --> 00:04:24,866
those are probably more in this 
second bucket# 
of structural, open-ended 
tariffs. And we can##

59
00:04:24,866 --> 00:04:29,366
expect those to be in place for 
a very long time,# 
because the problems that 
they're addressing,##

60
00:04:29,366 --> 00:04:34,066
the very large trade deficit, 
are# 
not going away in just a few 
months.

61
00:04:34,066 --> 00:04:35,266
AMNA NAWAZ: That is Greg Ip,##

62
00:04:35,266 --> 00:04:39,333
chief economics commentator at 
The Wall# 
Street Journal, ..

63
00:04:39,333 --> 00:04:43,066
Greg, thank you so much. Good to 
speak with you.

64
00:04:43,066 --> 00:04:44,866
GREG IP: Thanks for having me.