GEOFF BENNETT: Former FBI Director James Comey's# indictment and a looming government shutdown.
Much to discuss with their friends# Brooks and Capehart.
That's New## York Times columnist David Brooks# and Jonathan Capehart of MSNBC.
It's great to see you both.
So, David, President Donald Trump's fo.. on the job for just four days when she went before## a grand jury seeking this extraordinary,# unprecedented indictment of James Comey.
How do you view the charges themselves# and the process that led to these charges?
DAVID BROOKS: I view it the way every# other sentient human being views it,## as an erosion of our democracy, a blatant one.
You want your prosecutors to ask# themselves one question -- well,## two.
Did this person commit a crime# and can we prove it?
And, clearly,## that's not the way you can think if you're if# the Justice Department these days.
The only## question you need -- have to ask yourself# is, does the president want me to do this?
And that's just a violation of our basic# fundamental principles.
And so I wish I## had something sophisticated to say, but when# you look at what the actual indictment is,## it claims that he knew that# somebody else did some leak.
Well, it's so flimsy, you can see why they have# been deciding not to prosecute this case over## and over and over again.
And to do it a week# before the term runs out, with the prosecutors## never prosecuted anything before, it's the# obvious.
It's a violation of our democracy.
GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, how# does all of this strike you?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, look, when it comes# to democracy and threats to democracy,## there will be no daylight between me and David.
I come at this with the same view.
Justice# is supposed to be blind.
It is supposed## to be meted out without fear or favor of the# powerful and certainly without pressure from## the president.
And now what we have seen time# and time again -- this isn't the only time that## we have seen Justice looking over her shoulder,# wondering, what does the president want me to do?
And the other thing about this# indictment of James Comey,## it's only two pages.
And it's only -- it's# two pages because it's double-spaced.
It is## literally so flimsy that it is no wonder# that the former FBI director is saying,## yes, let's go to trial, because I think he# knows deep down, if justice is to prevail,## if the rule of law is to be upheld, a jury# of his peers will find him not guilty.
GEOFF BENNETT: And, David, the president is# predicting more prosecutions to come, he told## a reporter on the South Lawn.
He doesn't have a# list, but he says: "I think there will be others."
We pulled together a list of all the people the## president has targeted for retribution in# varying degrees.
You see them all there,## Letitia James.
You see Jimmy Kimmel, Adam# Schiff, John Bolton.
The list goes on.
Stepping back, what does this moment# mean for the Justice Department itself,## its independence, its credibility, and the# way Americans view its role going forward?
DAVID BROOKS: Gone.
And, of course, it's not the first time# the Justic.. you would say.
John F. Kennedy shouldn't have# appointed his brother as attorney general.
But## it's -- one of the things# I think we have learned is,## the Constitution's a magnificent document,# but they made it too hard to change.
And a lot of countries have# independent prosecutorial systems,## and they don't have the politicians# determining who's going to -- and we## relied -- instead of a legal precedent that# it's going to be separate and independent,## we learn -- we relied on norms.
We learn --# relied on presidents restraining themselves.
And it turns out -- and we have learned# this since the first Trump term -- that## norms that we thought were -- we almost thought# they were real, like concrete.
And norms are## really powerful, but if somebody destroys# them, they have destroyed your system.
And so## the eruption of norms has really# led to us -- us where we are today.
And then the final thing I'd say is that Lindsey# Halligan, she must -- she might be a wonderful## person.
I don't know.
I don't know her.
But the# quality of a job of a prosecutor, like the quality## of a general, like the quality of a pilot, like# the quality of a journalist, experience helps.
And the people who were fired because# they refuse to do this were experienced## prosecutors.
I don't know their politics, but# they lived up to the standard of their craft.## And when you have somebody who's willing# to betray the standard of their craft,## you have got something bigger than one case.# You have got an administration where people## are going to do the things that are disgraceful# because they just don't see any disgrace in it.
GEOFF BENNETT: And, Jonathan, building on# David's point about the erosion of norms,## how might this indictment influence# America's credibility abroad,## where the rule of law has long been# the cornerstone of our democracy?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.
The answer# to your question is in the question.
The United States has been a beacon around# the world for a whole host of reasons,## but primarily because of the rule of law,# that, if you go before the judicial system,## you go before a jury of your peers, you# will have your day in court.
And what## we're seeing here is -- I agree with David.# The independence of DOJ is -- it is gone.
And the one thing that -- in addition# to the norms that David talked about,## that the Constitution relied on,# that the founders relied on, was## leaders of good character.
And that is what# we do not have in the current president of## the United States.
And I say that because a person# of good character would not single out his or her## enemies for prosecution without evidence and# just say flatly they're guilty of something,## and then demand that the people at the# Justice Department go find that something.
We are in a very bad place when it comes to the# rule of law.
And this is why the world is so## worried about what is happening to this country,# why they were so worried about a Trump 2.0.
GEOFF BENNETT: And we are also# in this country days away from## a government shutdown with no off-ramp in sight.
The OMB director, Russ Vought, he charged into# this escalating shutdown fight, warning of mass## federal layoffs unless Democrats basically do# what President Trump and Republicans want.
David,## what do you make of the way the Trump# administration is playing hardball here?
DAVID BROOKS: It was entirely# predictable.
Donald Trump ran## for office saying he was going to take# a flamethrower to the U.S.
government,## federal bureaucracy.
He hired Elon# Musk, and Musk more or less failed.
DOGE created a lot of chaos, but it didn't take# a blowtorch to the U.S.
government.
It was mostly## ineffective.
And, to me, the problem here is that# Chuck Schumer has decided to pick up where Elon## Musk leaves off.
He -- by shutting down the# -- heading us toward a government shutdown,## he will give the federal government or the Trump# administration incredible latitude to fire people,## to decimate more agencies, to pour money# where they need to for political support,## to withdraw money where they want to -- because# they don't think it will politically hurt him.
They are handing Russell Vought amazing power when# they do this.
And that's just not me saying this.## This is what Chuck Schumer said in May when# he decided not to shut down the government.## He said, it would give carte blanche for the# Trump administration to destroy vital services.## It would hand the keys to the city and the# state and the country to Russell Vought.
I don't know what's different from now# from March.
I think he made the right## call in March.
This is not the battle# to fight because it will just lead to## the destruction of the federal government.
And# there's no upside here for anybody.
People do## not win government shutdowns.
So there's no# upside for the Democrats.
It's all downside.
GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, should Democrats adjust## their strategy now to deal with# Vought's playing hardball here?
We had Chuck Schumer, Senator Schumer on# the program before this threat, and he was## saying that they are going to hold firm, not# compromise on the issues that they hold dear.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: And he's absolutely right.
Here is where David and I are# in complete disagreement.
Look,## Russell Vought, President Trump,# this has been their plan all along.## Democrats have to play hardball with them, have# to meet their hardball tactics with hardball## tactics.
They were always going to take a# wrecking ball to the federal government.
They're going to take a wrecking ball to the# federal government and do all sorts of things## whether Democrats give them the votes# needed to pass the C.R.
or not.
The one## thing -- Democrats are talking about they want# to safeguard health care for 15 million people,## from those who are about to lose their Obamacare# subsidies to those who are on Medicare.
But there's something else that they are# wisely demanding.
They're demanding that## the OMB director and the president dial back,# that Congress dialed back the president's## rescission power.
And what that means is,# let's say Democrats give Republicans the votes## they need to do the C.R.
to fund the government# afterwards, to do all those appropriations bills.
Well, Russell Vought and the president have# time and time again gone to Congress and said,## the money that you appropriated for X, Y or# Z, we're not spending it that way.
We don't## care whether you like it or not.
And so that's the# other thing that the Democrats are fighting for,## and they are right to demand that,# because no matter what they agree to,## the Trump administration is going to# turn their back on it, no matter what.
Fight, Democrats.
GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks,## we're grateful for your perspectives at the# end of a very long, very busy .. DAVID BROOKS: Thank you.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks.