WEBVTT 00:01.768 --> 00:05.271 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Former FBI Director James Comey's# indictment and a looming government shutdown. 00:05.271 --> 00:08.074 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Much to discuss with their friends# Brooks and Capehart. That's New## 00:08.074 --> 00:12.078 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% York Times columnist David Brooks# and Jonathan Capehart of MSNBC. 00:12.078 --> 00:12.946 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's great to see you both. 00:12.946 --> 00:17.450 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So, David, President Donald Trump's fo.. 00:17.450 --> 00:19.919 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%   on the job for just four days when she went before## 00:19.919 --> 00:25.125 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a grand jury seeking this extraordinary,# unprecedented indictment of James Comey. 00:25.125 --> 00:29.262 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% How do you view the charges themselves# and the process that led to these charges? 00:29.262 --> 00:31.998 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: I view it the way every# other sentient human being views it,## 00:31.998 --> 00:35.201 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as an erosion of our democracy, a blatant one. 00:35.201 --> 00:38.171 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% You want your prosecutors to ask# themselves one question -- well,## 00:38.171 --> 00:42.075 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% two. Did this person commit a crime# and can we prove it? And, clearly,## 00:42.075 --> 00:46.079 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that's not the way you can think if you're if# the Justice Department these days. The only## 00:46.079 --> 00:49.916 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% question you need -- have to ask yourself# is, does the president want me to do this? 00:49.916 --> 00:55.755 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And that's just a violation of our basic# fundamental principles. And so I wish I## 00:55.755 --> 01:00.493 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% had something sophisticated to say, but when# you look at what the actual indictment is,## 01:00.493 --> 01:04.230 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it claims that he knew that# somebody else did some leak. 01:04.230 --> 01:09.836 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Well, it's so flimsy, you can see why they have# been deciding not to prosecute this case over## 01:09.836 --> 01:14.240 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and over and over again. And to do it a week# before the term runs out, with the prosecutors## 01:14.240 --> 01:19.979 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% never prosecuted anything before, it's the# obvious. It's a violation of our democracy. 01:19.979 --> 01:23.450 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, how# does all of this strike you? 01:23.450 --> 01:27.120 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, look, when it comes# to democracy and threats to democracy,## 01:27.120 --> 01:31.524 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there will be no daylight between me and David. 01:31.524 --> 01:37.664 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I come at this with the same view. Justice# is supposed to be blind. It is supposed## 01:37.664 --> 01:43.670 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to be meted out without fear or favor of the# powerful and certainly without pressure from## 01:43.670 --> 01:48.875 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the president. And now what we have seen time# and time again -- this isn't the only time that## 01:48.875 --> 01:54.247 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we have seen Justice looking over her shoulder,# wondering, what does the president want me to do? 01:54.247 --> 01:58.651 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the other thing about this# indictment of James Comey,## 01:58.651 --> 02:05.191 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% it's only two pages. And it's only -- it's# two pages because it's double-spaced. It is## 02:05.191 --> 02:11.264 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% literally so flimsy that it is no wonder# that the former FBI director is saying,## 02:11.264 --> 02:17.270 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% yes, let's go to trial, because I think he# knows deep down, if justice is to prevail,## 02:17.270 --> 02:24.210 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% if the rule of law is to be upheld, a jury# of his peers will find him not guilty. 02:24.210 --> 02:27.981 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: And, David, the president is# predicting more prosecutions to come, he told## 02:27.981 --> 02:32.785 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a reporter on the South Lawn. He doesn't have a# list, but he says: "I think there will be others." 02:32.785 --> 02:35.522 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We pulled together a list of all the people the## 02:35.522 --> 02:39.759 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% president has targeted for retribution in# varying degrees. You see them all there,## 02:39.759 --> 02:44.697 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Letitia James. You see Jimmy Kimmel, Adam# Schiff, John Bolton. The list goes on. 02:44.697 --> 02:48.168 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Stepping back, what does this moment# mean for the Justice Department itself,## 02:48.168 --> 02:53.173 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% its independence, its credibility, and the# way Americans view its role going forward? 02:53.173 --> 02:54.307 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Gone. 02:54.307 --> 02:57.210 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And, of course, it's not the first time# the Justic.. 02:57.210 --> 03:01.080 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you would say. John F. Kennedy shouldn't have# appointed his brother as attorney general. But## 03:01.614 --> 03:04.384 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's -- one of the things# I think we have learned is,## 03:04.384 --> 03:08.888 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the Constitution's a magnificent document,# but they made it too hard to change. 03:08.888 --> 03:11.691 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And a lot of countries have# independent prosecutorial systems,## 03:11.691 --> 03:15.028 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and they don't have the politicians# determining who's going to -- and we## 03:15.028 --> 03:20.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% relied -- instead of a legal precedent that# it's going to be separate and independent,## 03:20.166 --> 03:26.406 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we learn -- we relied on norms. We learn --# relied on presidents restraining themselves. 03:26.406 --> 03:30.677 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And it turns out -- and we have learned# this since the first Trump term -- that## 03:31.678 --> 03:36.950 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% norms that we thought were -- we almost thought# they were real, like concrete. And norms are## 03:36.950 --> 03:42.188 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% really powerful, but if somebody destroys# them, they have destroyed your system. And so## 03:42.956 --> 03:46.392 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the eruption of norms has really# led to us -- us where we are today. 03:46.392 --> 03:51.264 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And then the final thing I'd say is that Lindsey# Halligan, she must -- she might be a wonderful## 03:51.264 --> 03:56.636 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% person. I don't know. I don't know her. But the# quality of a job of a prosecutor, like the quality## 03:56.636 --> 04:02.542 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of a general, like the quality of a pilot, like# the quality of a journalist, experience helps. 04:02.542 --> 04:06.479 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And the people who were fired because# they refuse to do this were experienced## 04:06.479 --> 04:12.719 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% prosecutors. I don't know their politics, but# they lived up to the standard of their craft.## 04:12.719 --> 04:16.556 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And when you have somebody who's willing# to betray the standard of their craft,## 04:16.556 --> 04:21.928 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you have got something bigger than one case.# You have got an administration where people## 04:21.928 --> 04:26.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% are going to do the things that are disgraceful# because they just don't see any disgrace in it. 04:26.733 --> 04:30.470 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: And, Jonathan, building on# David's point about the erosion of norms,## 04:30.470 --> 04:34.807 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how might this indictment influence# America's credibility abroad,## 04:34.807 --> 04:40.546 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% where the rule of law has long been# the cornerstone of our democracy? 04:40.546 --> 04:43.283 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. The answer# to your question is in the question. 04:43.283 --> 04:49.822 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The United States has been a beacon around# the world for a whole host of reasons,## 04:49.822 --> 04:55.662 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but primarily because of the rule of law,# that, if you go before the judicial system,## 04:55.662 --> 05:02.802 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you go before a jury of your peers, you# will have your day in court. And what## 05:02.802 --> 05:10.410 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we're seeing here is -- I agree with David.# The independence of DOJ is -- it is gone. 05:10.410 --> 05:16.316 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And the one thing that -- in addition# to the norms that David talked about,## 05:16.316 --> 05:22.388 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that the Constitution relied on,# that the founders relied on, was## 05:22.388 --> 05:28.961 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% leaders of good character. And that is what# we do not have in the current president of## 05:28.961 --> 05:36.002 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the United States. And I say that because a person# of good character would not single out his or her## 05:36.002 --> 05:44.544 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% enemies for prosecution without evidence and# just say flatly they're guilty of something,## 05:44.544 --> 05:49.882 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and then demand that the people at the# Justice Department go find that something. 05:51.284 --> 05:57.690 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% We are in a very bad place when it comes to the# rule of law. And this is why the world is so## 05:57.690 --> 06:04.397 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% worried about what is happening to this country,# why they were so worried about a Trump 2.0. 06:04.397 --> 06:06.799 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: And we are also# in this country days away from## 06:06.799 --> 06:09.435 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a government shutdown with no off-ramp in sight. 06:09.435 --> 06:14.941 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The OMB director, Russ Vought, he charged into# this escalating shutdown fight, warning of mass## 06:14.941 --> 06:20.413 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% federal layoffs unless Democrats basically do# what President Trump and Republicans want. David,## 06:20.413 --> 06:24.050 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what do you make of the way the Trump# administration is playing hardball here? 06:24.050 --> 06:26.819 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: It was entirely# predictable. Donald Trump ran## 06:27.353 --> 06:30.323 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% for office saying he was going to take# a flamethrower to the U.S. government,## 06:30.323 --> 06:35.428 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% federal bureaucracy. He hired Elon# Musk, and Musk more or less failed. 06:35.428 --> 06:40.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DOGE created a lot of chaos, but it didn't take# a blowtorch to the U.S. government. It was mostly## 06:40.800 --> 06:45.438 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ineffective. And, to me, the problem here is that# Chuck Schumer has decided to pick up where Elon## 06:45.438 --> 06:50.410 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Musk leaves off. He -- by shutting down the# -- heading us toward a government shutdown,## 06:50.410 --> 06:56.716 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% he will give the federal government or the Trump# administration incredible latitude to fire people,## 06:56.716 --> 07:02.221 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to decimate more agencies, to pour money# where they need to for political support,## 07:02.221 --> 07:06.559 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to withdraw money where they want to -- because# they don't think it will politically hurt him. 07:06.559 --> 07:12.131 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They are handing Russell Vought amazing power when# they do this. And that's just not me saying this.## 07:12.131 --> 07:15.435 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This is what Chuck Schumer said in May when# he decided not to shut down the government.## 07:15.435 --> 07:21.274 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% He said, it would give carte blanche for the# Trump administration to destroy vital services.## 07:21.274 --> 07:25.344 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% It would hand the keys to the city and the# state and the country to Russell Vought. 07:25.344 --> 07:28.414 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I don't know what's different from now# from March. I think he made the right## 07:28.414 --> 07:31.851 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% call in March. This is not the battle# to fight because it will just lead to## 07:31.851 --> 07:36.222 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the destruction of the federal government. And# there's no upside here for anybody. People do## 07:36.222 --> 07:40.092 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% not win government shutdowns. So there's no# upside for the Democrats. It's all downside. 07:40.092 --> 07:42.228 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, should Democrats adjust## 07:42.228 --> 07:45.364 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% their strategy now to deal with# Vought's playing hardball here? 07:45.364 --> 07:49.902 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% We had Chuck Schumer, Senator Schumer on# the program before this threat, and he was## 07:49.902 --> 07:54.774 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% saying that they are going to hold firm, not# compromise on the issues that they hold dear. 07:54.774 --> 07:56.409 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: And he's absolutely right. 07:56.409 --> 08:03.149 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Here is where David and I are# in complete disagreement. Look,## 08:03.749 --> 08:08.721 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Russell Vought, President Trump,# this has been their plan all along.## 08:08.721 --> 08:15.595 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Democrats have to play hardball with them, have# to meet their hardball tactics with hardball## 08:15.595 --> 08:21.767 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% tactics. They were always going to take a# wrecking ball to the federal government. 08:21.767 --> 08:26.405 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They're going to take a wrecking ball to the# federal government and do all sorts of things## 08:26.405 --> 08:32.311 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% whether Democrats give them the votes# needed to pass the C.R. or not. The one## 08:32.311 --> 08:37.517 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% thing -- Democrats are talking about they want# to safeguard health care for 15 million people,## 08:37.517 --> 08:42.321 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% from those who are about to lose their Obamacare# subsidies to those who are on Medicare. 08:42.321 --> 08:49.262 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But there's something else that they are# wisely demanding. They're demanding that## 08:49.262 --> 08:55.835 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the OMB director and the president dial back,# that Congress dialed back the president's## 08:55.835 --> 09:00.573 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% rescission power. And what that means is,# let's say Democrats give Republicans the votes## 09:00.573 --> 09:07.046 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% they need to do the C.R. to fund the government# afterwards, to do all those appropriations bills. 09:07.046 --> 09:12.952 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Well, Russell Vought and the president have# time and time again gone to Congress and said,## 09:12.952 --> 09:18.558 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the money that you appropriated for X, Y or# Z, we're not spending it that way. We don't## 09:18.558 --> 09:23.429 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% care whether you like it or not. And so that's the# other thing that the Democrats are fighting for,## 09:23.429 --> 09:28.167 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and they are right to demand that,# because no matter what they agree to,## 09:28.167 --> 09:32.171 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the Trump administration is going to# turn their back on it, no matter what. 09:32.171 --> 09:33.673 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Fight, Democrats. 09:33.673 --> 09:35.207 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks,## 09:35.207 --> 09:39.345 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we're grateful for your perspectives at the# end of a very long, very busy .. 09:39.345 --> 09:40.613 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Thank you. 09:40.613 --> 09:41.380 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks.