1 00:00:01,768 --> 00:00:05,271 GEOFF BENNETT: Former FBI Director James Comey's# indictment and a looming government shutdown. 2 00:00:05,271 --> 00:00:08,074 Much to discuss with their friends# Brooks and Capehart. That's New## 3 00:00:08,074 --> 00:00:12,078 York Times columnist David Brooks# and Jonathan Capehart of MSNBC. 4 00:00:12,078 --> 00:00:12,946 It's great to see you both. 5 00:00:12,946 --> 00:00:17,450 So, David, President Donald Trump's fo.. 6 00:00:17,450 --> 00:00:19,919 on the job for just four days when she went before## 7 00:00:19,919 --> 00:00:25,125 a grand jury seeking this extraordinary,# unprecedented indictment of James Comey. 8 00:00:25,125 --> 00:00:29,262 How do you view the charges themselves# and the process that led to these charges? 9 00:00:29,262 --> 00:00:31,998 DAVID BROOKS: I view it the way every# other sentient human being views it,## 10 00:00:31,998 --> 00:00:35,201 as an erosion of our democracy, a blatant one. 11 00:00:35,201 --> 00:00:38,171 You want your prosecutors to ask# themselves one question -- well,## 12 00:00:38,171 --> 00:00:42,075 two. Did this person commit a crime# and can we prove it? And, clearly,## 13 00:00:42,075 --> 00:00:46,079 that's not the way you can think if you're if# the Justice Department these days. The only## 14 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:49,916 question you need -- have to ask yourself# is, does the president want me to do this? 15 00:00:49,916 --> 00:00:55,755 And that's just a violation of our basic# fundamental principles. And so I wish I## 16 00:00:55,755 --> 00:01:00,493 had something sophisticated to say, but when# you look at what the actual indictment is,## 17 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:04,230 it claims that he knew that# somebody else did some leak. 18 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:09,836 Well, it's so flimsy, you can see why they have# been deciding not to prosecute this case over## 19 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:14,240 and over and over again. And to do it a week# before the term runs out, with the prosecutors## 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,979 never prosecuted anything before, it's the# obvious. It's a violation of our democracy. 21 00:01:19,979 --> 00:01:23,450 GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, how# does all of this strike you? 22 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:27,120 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, look, when it comes# to democracy and threats to democracy,## 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,524 there will be no daylight between me and David. 24 00:01:31,524 --> 00:01:37,664 I come at this with the same view. Justice# is supposed to be blind. It is supposed## 25 00:01:37,664 --> 00:01:43,670 to be meted out without fear or favor of the# powerful and certainly without pressure from## 26 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:48,875 the president. And now what we have seen time# and time again -- this isn't the only time that## 27 00:01:48,875 --> 00:01:54,247 we have seen Justice looking over her shoulder,# wondering, what does the president want me to do? 28 00:01:54,247 --> 00:01:58,651 And the other thing about this# indictment of James Comey,## 29 00:01:58,651 --> 00:02:05,191 it's only two pages. And it's only -- it's# two pages because it's double-spaced. It is## 30 00:02:05,191 --> 00:02:11,264 literally so flimsy that it is no wonder# that the former FBI director is saying,## 31 00:02:11,264 --> 00:02:17,270 yes, let's go to trial, because I think he# knows deep down, if justice is to prevail,## 32 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:24,210 if the rule of law is to be upheld, a jury# of his peers will find him not guilty. 33 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:27,981 GEOFF BENNETT: And, David, the president is# predicting more prosecutions to come, he told## 34 00:02:27,981 --> 00:02:32,785 a reporter on the South Lawn. He doesn't have a# list, but he says: "I think there will be others." 35 00:02:32,785 --> 00:02:35,522 We pulled together a list of all the people the## 36 00:02:35,522 --> 00:02:39,759 president has targeted for retribution in# varying degrees. You see them all there,## 37 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:44,697 Letitia James. You see Jimmy Kimmel, Adam# Schiff, John Bolton. The list goes on. 38 00:02:44,697 --> 00:02:48,168 Stepping back, what does this moment# mean for the Justice Department itself,## 39 00:02:48,168 --> 00:02:53,173 its independence, its credibility, and the# way Americans view its role going forward? 40 00:02:53,173 --> 00:02:54,307 DAVID BROOKS: Gone. 41 00:02:54,307 --> 00:02:57,210 And, of course, it's not the first time# the Justic.. 42 00:02:57,210 --> 00:03:01,080 you would say. John F. Kennedy shouldn't have# appointed his brother as attorney general. But## 43 00:03:01,614 --> 00:03:04,384 it's -- one of the things# I think we have learned is,## 44 00:03:04,384 --> 00:03:08,888 the Constitution's a magnificent document,# but they made it too hard to change. 45 00:03:08,888 --> 00:03:11,691 And a lot of countries have# independent prosecutorial systems,## 46 00:03:11,691 --> 00:03:15,028 and they don't have the politicians# determining who's going to -- and we## 47 00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:20,166 relied -- instead of a legal precedent that# it's going to be separate and independent,## 48 00:03:20,166 --> 00:03:26,406 we learn -- we relied on norms. We learn --# relied on presidents restraining themselves. 49 00:03:26,406 --> 00:03:30,677 And it turns out -- and we have learned# this since the first Trump term -- that## 50 00:03:31,678 --> 00:03:36,950 norms that we thought were -- we almost thought# they were real, like concrete. And norms are## 51 00:03:36,950 --> 00:03:42,188 really powerful, but if somebody destroys# them, they have destroyed your system. And so## 52 00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:46,392 the eruption of norms has really# led to us -- us where we are today. 53 00:03:46,392 --> 00:03:51,264 And then the final thing I'd say is that Lindsey# Halligan, she must -- she might be a wonderful## 54 00:03:51,264 --> 00:03:56,636 person. I don't know. I don't know her. But the# quality of a job of a prosecutor, like the quality## 55 00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:02,542 of a general, like the quality of a pilot, like# the quality of a journalist, experience helps. 56 00:04:02,542 --> 00:04:06,479 And the people who were fired because# they refuse to do this were experienced## 57 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:12,719 prosecutors. I don't know their politics, but# they lived up to the standard of their craft.## 58 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:16,556 And when you have somebody who's willing# to betray the standard of their craft,## 59 00:04:16,556 --> 00:04:21,928 you have got something bigger than one case.# You have got an administration where people## 60 00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:26,733 are going to do the things that are disgraceful# because they just don't see any disgrace in it. 61 00:04:26,733 --> 00:04:30,470 GEOFF BENNETT: And, Jonathan, building on# David's point about the erosion of norms,## 62 00:04:30,470 --> 00:04:34,807 how might this indictment influence# America's credibility abroad,## 63 00:04:34,807 --> 00:04:40,546 where the rule of law has long been# the cornerstone of our democracy? 64 00:04:40,546 --> 00:04:43,283 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. The answer# to your question is in the question. 65 00:04:43,283 --> 00:04:49,822 The United States has been a beacon around# the world for a whole host of reasons,## 66 00:04:49,822 --> 00:04:55,662 but primarily because of the rule of law,# that, if you go before the judicial system,## 67 00:04:55,662 --> 00:05:02,802 you go before a jury of your peers, you# will have your day in court. And what## 68 00:05:02,802 --> 00:05:10,410 we're seeing here is -- I agree with David.# The independence of DOJ is -- it is gone. 69 00:05:10,410 --> 00:05:16,316 And the one thing that -- in addition# to the norms that David talked about,## 70 00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:22,388 that the Constitution relied on,# that the founders relied on, was## 71 00:05:22,388 --> 00:05:28,961 leaders of good character. And that is what# we do not have in the current president of## 72 00:05:28,961 --> 00:05:36,002 the United States. And I say that because a person# of good character would not single out his or her## 73 00:05:36,002 --> 00:05:44,544 enemies for prosecution without evidence and# just say flatly they're guilty of something,## 74 00:05:44,544 --> 00:05:49,882 and then demand that the people at the# Justice Department go find that something. 75 00:05:51,284 --> 00:05:57,690 We are in a very bad place when it comes to the# rule of law. And this is why the world is so## 76 00:05:57,690 --> 00:06:04,397 worried about what is happening to this country,# why they were so worried about a Trump 2.0. 77 00:06:04,397 --> 00:06:06,799 GEOFF BENNETT: And we are also# in this country days away from## 78 00:06:06,799 --> 00:06:09,435 a government shutdown with no off-ramp in sight. 79 00:06:09,435 --> 00:06:14,941 The OMB director, Russ Vought, he charged into# this escalating shutdown fight, warning of mass## 80 00:06:14,941 --> 00:06:20,413 federal layoffs unless Democrats basically do# what President Trump and Republicans want. David,## 81 00:06:20,413 --> 00:06:24,050 what do you make of the way the Trump# administration is playing hardball here? 82 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:26,819 DAVID BROOKS: It was entirely# predictable. Donald Trump ran## 83 00:06:27,353 --> 00:06:30,323 for office saying he was going to take# a flamethrower to the U.S. government,## 84 00:06:30,323 --> 00:06:35,428 federal bureaucracy. He hired Elon# Musk, and Musk more or less failed. 85 00:06:35,428 --> 00:06:40,800 DOGE created a lot of chaos, but it didn't take# a blowtorch to the U.S. government. It was mostly## 86 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,438 ineffective. And, to me, the problem here is that# Chuck Schumer has decided to pick up where Elon## 87 00:06:45,438 --> 00:06:50,410 Musk leaves off. He -- by shutting down the# -- heading us toward a government shutdown,## 88 00:06:50,410 --> 00:06:56,716 he will give the federal government or the Trump# administration incredible latitude to fire people,## 89 00:06:56,716 --> 00:07:02,221 to decimate more agencies, to pour money# where they need to for political support,## 90 00:07:02,221 --> 00:07:06,559 to withdraw money where they want to -- because# they don't think it will politically hurt him. 91 00:07:06,559 --> 00:07:12,131 They are handing Russell Vought amazing power when# they do this. And that's just not me saying this.## 92 00:07:12,131 --> 00:07:15,435 This is what Chuck Schumer said in May when# he decided not to shut down the government.## 93 00:07:15,435 --> 00:07:21,274 He said, it would give carte blanche for the# Trump administration to destroy vital services.## 94 00:07:21,274 --> 00:07:25,344 It would hand the keys to the city and the# state and the country to Russell Vought. 95 00:07:25,344 --> 00:07:28,414 I don't know what's different from now# from March. I think he made the right## 96 00:07:28,414 --> 00:07:31,851 call in March. This is not the battle# to fight because it will just lead to## 97 00:07:31,851 --> 00:07:36,222 the destruction of the federal government. And# there's no upside here for anybody. People do## 98 00:07:36,222 --> 00:07:40,092 not win government shutdowns. So there's no# upside for the Democrats. It's all downside. 99 00:07:40,092 --> 00:07:42,228 GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, should Democrats adjust## 100 00:07:42,228 --> 00:07:45,364 their strategy now to deal with# Vought's playing hardball here? 101 00:07:45,364 --> 00:07:49,902 We had Chuck Schumer, Senator Schumer on# the program before this threat, and he was## 102 00:07:49,902 --> 00:07:54,774 saying that they are going to hold firm, not# compromise on the issues that they hold dear. 103 00:07:54,774 --> 00:07:56,409 JONATHAN CAPEHART: And he's absolutely right. 104 00:07:56,409 --> 00:08:03,149 Here is where David and I are# in complete disagreement. Look,## 105 00:08:03,749 --> 00:08:08,721 Russell Vought, President Trump,# this has been their plan all along.## 106 00:08:08,721 --> 00:08:15,595 Democrats have to play hardball with them, have# to meet their hardball tactics with hardball## 107 00:08:15,595 --> 00:08:21,767 tactics. They were always going to take a# wrecking ball to the federal government. 108 00:08:21,767 --> 00:08:26,405 They're going to take a wrecking ball to the# federal government and do all sorts of things## 109 00:08:26,405 --> 00:08:32,311 whether Democrats give them the votes# needed to pass the C.R. or not. The one## 110 00:08:32,311 --> 00:08:37,517 thing -- Democrats are talking about they want# to safeguard health care for 15 million people,## 111 00:08:37,517 --> 00:08:42,321 from those who are about to lose their Obamacare# subsidies to those who are on Medicare. 112 00:08:42,321 --> 00:08:49,262 But there's something else that they are# wisely demanding. They're demanding that## 113 00:08:49,262 --> 00:08:55,835 the OMB director and the president dial back,# that Congress dialed back the president's## 114 00:08:55,835 --> 00:09:00,573 rescission power. And what that means is,# let's say Democrats give Republicans the votes## 115 00:09:00,573 --> 00:09:07,046 they need to do the C.R. to fund the government# afterwards, to do all those appropriations bills. 116 00:09:07,046 --> 00:09:12,952 Well, Russell Vought and the president have# time and time again gone to Congress and said,## 117 00:09:12,952 --> 00:09:18,558 the money that you appropriated for X, Y or# Z, we're not spending it that way. We don't## 118 00:09:18,558 --> 00:09:23,429 care whether you like it or not. And so that's the# other thing that the Democrats are fighting for,## 119 00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:28,167 and they are right to demand that,# because no matter what they agree to,## 120 00:09:28,167 --> 00:09:32,171 the Trump administration is going to# turn their back on it, no matter what. 121 00:09:32,171 --> 00:09:33,673 Fight, Democrats. 122 00:09:33,673 --> 00:09:35,207 GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks,## 123 00:09:35,207 --> 00:09:39,345 we're grateful for your perspectives at the# end of a very long, very busy .. 124 00:09:39,345 --> 00:09:40,613 DAVID BROOKS: Thank you. 125 00:09:40,613 --> 00:09:41,380 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks.