1 00:00:03,133 --> 00:00:05,633 AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening. I'm Amna Nawaz. 2 00:00:05,633 --> 00:00:07,600 GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett. 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,266 On the "News Hour" tonight: The threat of mass firings loom on this second day 4 00:00:11,266 --> 00:00:15,000 of the government shutdown with no signs of a potential deal. 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,033 AMNA NAWAZ: Millions of senior citizens lose 6 00:00:17,033 --> 00:00:21,000 access to telehealth services in the wake of that shutdown. 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,133 GEOFF BENNETT: And our ongoing look at those caught up in the president's 8 00:00:24,133 --> 00:00:27,033 immigration crackdown. A refugee living in the 9 00:00:27,033 --> 00:00:32,033 U.S. since childhood describes being detained during a routine check-in. 10 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:36,033 ALAN PHETSADAKONE, Laotian Refugee: Just in the blink of an eye, I lost everything, 11 00:00:36,033 --> 00:00:39,300 just not knowing what's going to happen next, 12 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:44,266 not knowing what's going to happen to my life, my family, my kids. 13 00:00:54,566 --> 00:00:55,900 (BREAK) 14 00:00:55,900 --> 00:01:00,466 GEOFF BENNETT: Welcome to the "News Hour." 15 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,400 There were no signs of progress among lawmakers today in Washington, and that ensures the 16 00:02:49,866 --> 00:02:52,900 government will stay shut down for another day, as Democrats dig in on protections to health care. 17 00:02:55,066 --> 00:02:58,100 AMNA NAWAZ: President Trump is also digging in and warning of far-reaching consequences, 18 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:02,300 firing federal workers and targeting Democratic states with a wave of cuts 19 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:06,400 to federal projects. He even invoked the name of a policy blueprint he 20 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,933 once distanced himself from on the campaign trail. That's Project 2025. 21 00:03:10,933 --> 00:03:15,000 White House correspondent Liz Landers begins our coverage. 22 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,066 LIZ LANDERS: Day two of the government shutdown and the White House is turning 23 00:03:18,066 --> 00:03:22,133 up the temperature on its threats to permanently lay off workers. 24 00:03:22,133 --> 00:03:26,400 White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt alluded to unprecedented mass 25 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,266 layoffs that are -- quote -- "likely going to be in the thousands," plus drastic cuts 26 00:03:31,266 --> 00:03:36,266 to so-called "Democrat agencies," but gave no indication of which those might be. 27 00:03:38,566 --> 00:03:39,033 KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary: Look, we're going to look at agencies that don't 28 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:44,666 align with the administration's values that we feel are a waste of the taxpayer dollar. And, 29 00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:48,300 look, unfortunately, these conversations are happening 30 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,100 because we don't have any money coming into the federal government right now. 31 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:53,933 LIZ LANDERS: President Trump today sitting down with his budget director, 32 00:03:53,933 --> 00:03:56,100 Russ Vought, to lay out options. 33 00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:00,900 Mr. Trump on social media, notably no longer disavowing Vought's ties to Project 2025, 34 00:04:03,266 --> 00:04:07,233 which has long advocated for wide-scale government cuts. Instead, the president leaning in, writing 35 00:04:09,566 --> 00:04:13,300 - - quote -- "I can't believe the radical left Democrats gave me this unprecedented opportunity." 36 00:04:15,366 --> 00:04:18,633 Trump talked up those threats speaking to conservative-leaning network One America News. 37 00:04:18,633 --> 00:04:20,833 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: Well, there could be firings, 38 00:04:20,833 --> 00:04:24,800 and that's their fault. And it could also be other things. I mean, we could cut projects 39 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,266 that they wanted, favorite projects and they'd be permanently cut. So you could 40 00:04:29,266 --> 00:04:32,933 say -- a lot of people are saying, Trump wanted this, that I wanted this closing. 41 00:04:32,933 --> 00:04:37,933 And I didn't want it. But a lot of people are saying it because I'm allowed to cut 42 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,833 things that should have never been approved in the first place. 43 00:04:41,833 --> 00:04:46,333 LIZ LANDERS: Russ Vought says he's already begun that work, canceling $8 billion in green 44 00:04:48,633 --> 00:04:51,633 energy projects in 16 states where voters backed Kamala Harris over Trump in the 2024 election. 45 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,600 One of the Democratic governors of those states, 46 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,600 former Harris running mate Tim Walz, called that an egregious abuse of power. 47 00:05:02,966 --> 00:05:05,333 GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): This idea that you have got to go and kiss the ring, or you have got to go and 48 00:05:05,333 --> 00:05:09,466 give some type of award to get basic services that he swore an oath to defend, that is outrageous. 49 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,233 LIZ LANDERS: Meanwhile, down Pennsylvania Avenue, the stalemate between lawmakers drags 50 00:05:14,233 --> 00:05:18,700 on with no end in sight, Democrats digging in on their core demand, 51 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:23,700 refusing to back a bill that doesn't reverse Medicaid cuts and extend Obamacare subsidies. 52 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:27,066 REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): People are going to face medical bankruptcy, 53 00:05:27,066 --> 00:05:31,033 millions of American citizens. And Republicans don't want to do 54 00:05:31,033 --> 00:05:34,466 anything about it. Democrats are in this fight until we win this fight. 55 00:05:34,466 --> 00:05:36,800 REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Don't ask the Republicans what we should be doing or 56 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,800 what we should be negotiating. I don't have anything to negotiate. 57 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,533 LIZ LANDERS: Speaker Mike Johnson and Republican leadership said those 58 00:05:42,533 --> 00:05:46,933 discussions on health care can wait until their deadline at the end of the year. 59 00:05:46,933 --> 00:05:50,300 REP. MIKE JOHNSON: We have three months to do that. That is not an issue for today. Today, 60 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,700 the only issue is whether they're going to vote 61 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:55,900 to keep the government operating for the people, clear, plain and simple. 62 00:05:55,900 --> 00:05:58,166 LIZ LANDERS: Outside the Capitol, 63 00:05:58,166 --> 00:06:01,866 both federal workers and visitors ran into small reminders of the closure around town. 64 00:06:03,566 --> 00:06:06,233 MAN: We didn't come to Washington to have to face a shutdown. 65 00:06:06,233 --> 00:06:11,233 LIZ LANDERS: But they say they haven't seen the shutdown's effects ripple out of control yet. 66 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,166 STEVE BERGSBAKEN, D.C. Resident: It will affect, like, say, the next paycheck, 67 00:06:15,166 --> 00:06:18,400 if we don't get the check. But if they settle it by the 15th, then it'll be OK. 68 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,200 JAMES FARANDA, U.S. Customs and Border Protection Employee: It's stressful 69 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,266 because you just have all this uncertainty. So I wish they would 70 00:06:23,266 --> 00:06:27,600 just get their act together so that we can all do what we do best at work, 71 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,333 which is work and work for the American people, because I do work for the government. 72 00:06:31,333 --> 00:06:36,333 LIZ LANDERS: The Senate will take another vote on a government funding bill tomorrow. But, 73 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:40,700 if that fails, it is unlikely that they will stay in town this weekend, 74 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:44,133 which means, Amna, that this shutdown may extend into next week. 75 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:46,200 AMNA NAWAZ: So, Liz, just bring us up to speed on the latest. 76 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,733 What's the state of play? Are there any negotiations or discussions to end this? 77 00:06:49,733 --> 00:06:53,033 LIZ LANDERS: We're pretty much at a stalemate right now. The president has not had any public 78 00:06:53,033 --> 00:06:57,600 events yesterday or today. We do know that he was supposed to have that meeting today with 79 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,300 his OMB director, Russ Vought. We did not get a readout of that meeting yet. 80 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:07,300 This afternoon, Speaker Johnson was seen arriving to the White House, to the West Wing. So 81 00:07:09,366 --> 00:07:12,733 presumably he's talking with the president about this. But we heard Democratic Leader Jeffries 82 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,333 saying that he's open to having more negotiations, but those are not happening right now. 83 00:07:17,333 --> 00:07:19,500 AMNA NAWAZ: And as you reported there, 84 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,866 the administration now seems to be taking deliberate steps to target Democratic states, 85 00:07:22,866 --> 00:07:26,633 Democratic priorities in their shutdown decisions. What should we know about that? 86 00:07:26,633 --> 00:07:30,933 LIZ LANDERS: It's not unusual for the political parties to play the blame game here, but the White 87 00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:35,933 House is being very political, especially not just in their words, but also in their actions. 88 00:07:37,633 --> 00:07:41,700 So we saw in our report that the OMB director is slashing some of these 89 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,833 programs, these energy programs in 16 states that all voted Democrat in the 90 00:07:48,933 --> 00:07:52,333 last election. And then also we have seen a lot of online presence, political presence, 91 00:07:53,766 --> 00:07:57,833 from this administration blaming the shutdown on Democrats. 92 00:07:57,833 --> 00:08:02,833 Several of the major federal Web sites for agencies have messages like this 93 00:08:04,766 --> 00:08:08,400 one. The agriculture Web site says: "Due to the radical left Democrat shutdown, 94 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,466 this government Web site will not be updated." There is a lot of that right now. 95 00:08:12,466 --> 00:08:15,433 AMNA NAWAZ: All right, that's our White House correspondent, Liz Landers, reporting tonight. 96 00:08:15,433 --> 00:08:16,800 Liz, thank you. 97 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,833 Well, meanwhile, as Liz reported, Congress is not meeting today. It's in part to the 98 00:08:21,833 --> 00:08:25,500 Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. But when the Senate returns tomorrow, 99 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:30,500 the question is, will anything change? What is the way out of this shutdown? 100 00:08:31,933 --> 00:08:34,533 Our congressional correspondent, Lisa Desjardins, has more. 101 00:08:34,533 --> 00:08:37,200 LISA DESJARDINS: Party leaders are not budging. President Trump 102 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,200 is increasingly threatening Democrats and acting against Democratic states. 103 00:08:44,266 --> 00:08:47,100 But there are some in the Senate trying to talk across the aisle and find a way forward. 104 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:51,600 One of those is Republican Mike Rounds of South Dakota, who joins me now. 105 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,600 Senator, you were center stage yesterday on the Senate floor during one of the votes. 106 00:08:58,633 --> 00:09:01,866 You had an exchange of ideas with Democrats. Obviously, there's no deal, but other than 107 00:09:03,966 --> 00:09:07,233 Democrats suddenly agreeing to your funding bill, what are the possible ways forward here? 108 00:09:09,333 --> 00:09:12,933 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): There really is no other way to start than starting government 109 00:09:12,933 --> 00:09:17,433 and opening it up again. And that's part of the message that we're trying to share is, 110 00:09:17,433 --> 00:09:21,666 there's lots of ways using regular order, the traditional way in which we do appropriations 111 00:09:21,666 --> 00:09:25,266 and everything, to accomplish a lot of really good things in the Senate. 112 00:09:25,266 --> 00:09:30,266 But nothing will happen until we get government opened up again. And the best way to do that is 113 00:09:32,333 --> 00:09:35,466 with the continuing resolution that we have offered that would end on November 21. That's 114 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:42,600 just simply the best way to approach it while we have still got time is to open government back up. 115 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,233 And that's the message we're trying to share with our Democrat colleagues. 116 00:09:47,233 --> 00:09:49,100 LISA DESJARDINS: Now, you and I talked about this. 117 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:53,666 I know that you told Democrats you understand their health care concerns. 118 00:09:53,666 --> 00:09:56,800 But talking to one of the key senators involved, Gary Peters, 119 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,800 who I know you're working with, he says trust is really an issue here. And he 120 00:10:03,866 --> 00:10:06,866 points out that President Trump has pulled back funding that Congress appropriated. 121 00:10:06,866 --> 00:10:11,666 He's done that on his own. He's frozen programs that Congress has approved. 122 00:10:11,666 --> 00:10:16,666 Why should Democrats trust you that there will be a real health care way forward later? 123 00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:20,533 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: Let's just say that they don't trust us and let's 124 00:10:20,533 --> 00:10:25,333 just say they keep government shut down. Then everything that they're working for is gone. 125 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,900 The best approach is to open government back up and allow the appropriations process, 126 00:10:32,233 --> 00:10:35,766 which was working correctly, to actually proceed. 127 00:10:35,766 --> 00:10:38,400 We don't see another alternative to that. 128 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,133 LISA DESJARDINS: But you understand their concern, 129 00:10:40,133 --> 00:10:43,866 right? Is there no mechanism where you can offer an incentive? 130 00:10:43,866 --> 00:10:48,333 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: There's not going to be any negotiations with them until they get the shutdown 131 00:10:48,333 --> 00:10:52,966 completed. Once that happens then under regular order, there's lots of negotiations that can go 132 00:10:52,966 --> 00:10:57,933 on. But it's really difficult to do negotiations when you have got a government shutdown going on. 133 00:11:00,233 --> 00:11:02,700 And I think a lot of our colleagues have said, look, until we get that, it just means we will 134 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,600 have one more demand after another demand. We won't get anyplace. And in the meantime, 135 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,200 as I have shared with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, you are running 136 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,833 out of time as well, because one of the things that they do care about, and like a lot of us, 137 00:11:15,833 --> 00:11:20,833 is, how do you address this thing for people that have been stuck with Obamacare and who, 138 00:11:22,966 --> 00:11:25,866 because of the expenses on it, are definitely going to want to have some assistance on it? 139 00:11:27,966 --> 00:11:31,233 But the negotiations on that won't be worth much value come about the end of October. So 140 00:11:34,066 --> 00:11:39,066 for those of us here, we're trying to tell them, you're running out of time. Get past 141 00:11:41,166 --> 00:11:43,766 this shutdown and let's get back to regular order so we can really talk about the stuff. 142 00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:47,533 LISA DESJARDINS: Right. Democrats say the time is urgent because while the subsidies 143 00:11:47,533 --> 00:11:52,500 for the Affordable Care Act run out at the end of December, open enrollment is just a month away, 144 00:11:54,233 --> 00:11:57,800 and insurers are already announcing those prices, those price increases. 145 00:11:59,933 --> 00:12:02,533 What about that? How do you respond to that concern, that you all really need to act now? 146 00:12:02,533 --> 00:12:06,400 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: We agree with them. And the sooner they get passed the shutdown 147 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,733 and get back to regular order, we can get into the middle of it. 148 00:12:09,733 --> 00:12:14,733 It's going to take work on the part of the Finance Committee, on the part of the Health Committee to 149 00:12:16,833 --> 00:12:19,900 actually craft a way to get rid of some of the fraud and abuse that has been occurring, that's 150 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,733 been acknowledged, and there's been criminal charges already filed because of some of it. 151 00:12:23,733 --> 00:12:27,600 But in order to move forward, we have to get past the shutdown. And every 152 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,733 day that they keep the government in a shutdown is one last day that they 153 00:12:31,733 --> 00:12:36,200 have to actually work through regular order on appropriations in order to get anything done. 154 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:41,033 LISA DESJARDINS: The president, in his own words, is targeting Democratic states, 155 00:12:41,033 --> 00:12:46,033 freezing funding for some, and also saying he wants to target what he calls Democratic agencies. 156 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,833 That's really unprecedented in modern times. Do you feel like that's appropriate? 157 00:12:50,833 --> 00:12:52,966 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: What I have told people is, is, 158 00:12:52,966 --> 00:12:57,633 look, I can't influence the president on the approach that he wants to take. He's 159 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,633 going to try to do everything he can to put pressure on our Democrat colleagues. 160 00:13:02,633 --> 00:13:06,533 What he does is something that he will have to make the decisions on. It's not something 161 00:13:06,533 --> 00:13:11,533 that we can go in and stop him from doing. But what we can do is to get rid of the government 162 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,066 shutdown. And if we get rid of the shutdown, there's no reason for him to be doing that. 163 00:13:16,066 --> 00:13:21,066 And so once again, look, we're within days of having enough time to actually work our 164 00:13:23,166 --> 00:13:26,733 way through everything else. So my message, once again, get rid of the shutdown. I know 165 00:13:28,666 --> 00:13:30,700 we're going back in. We're talking about this on a Thursday evening. On a Friday, 166 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:32,800 we're going to have everybody come back in, and we're going to vote again. 167 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,466 We're hoping to be able to have our Democrat colleagues take a look at just 168 00:13:36,466 --> 00:13:39,833 the evidence of what we have had already with regard to appropriations this year, 169 00:13:39,833 --> 00:13:43,900 how far we have come already, and the goodwill that that's already developed. And 170 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:48,800 if we can get them back to regular order, we're convinced that lots of good things can happen. 171 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,933 And there's no limitation on the amendments and so forth that can be considered, moved, 172 00:13:52,933 --> 00:13:55,466 and so forth on those bills. So -- but we're 173 00:13:55,466 --> 00:13:59,933 not going to negotiate until we get government shutdown out of the way. 174 00:13:59,933 --> 00:14:03,333 LISA DESJARDINS: Senator, I know you say that the president's choices are his own, 175 00:14:03,333 --> 00:14:05,266 but you yourself are an important lawmaker. 176 00:14:05,266 --> 00:14:09,666 And I know you're someone who cares about a nonpartisan civil service. 177 00:14:09,666 --> 00:14:14,466 Are you concerned about this idea that the civil service is being used in a partisan way and that 178 00:14:14,466 --> 00:14:19,466 money's being cut off for Americans because of the way their state is perceived by the president? 179 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,766 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: Look, right now, we're in the middle of a shutdown. And in the middle 180 00:14:23,766 --> 00:14:28,133 of the shutdown, you have got a lot of those services being stopped and for no reason. 181 00:14:28,133 --> 00:14:31,733 And so, look, some people will say, well, the president should do it 182 00:14:31,733 --> 00:14:36,133 different. The president is saying, don't do a shutdown. Number one, don't do a shutdown. 183 00:14:36,133 --> 00:14:40,800 And if you're going to do a shutdown, then the executive branch has the ability then to respond 184 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,500 accordingly. And he's going to put pressure on them during this shutdown time period. 185 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:49,433 I used to tell people -- I worked as governor in South Dakota for a period of eight years. 186 00:14:49,433 --> 00:14:53,900 And during that time, one of my messages to my legislative colleagues at that time was, 187 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:56,933 you make the rules, you write the laws, but I play the game. 188 00:14:56,933 --> 00:14:59,900 And that's something that I think our Democrat colleagues have got to remember. 189 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:04,900 The president will follow the law, but at this stage he has broad latitude about what he can 190 00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:11,000 do in the executive branch of government. This goes moot if they will simply open 191 00:15:12,966 --> 00:15:16,933 government back up. Open government back up. Let's get back to what we were doing, 192 00:15:16,933 --> 00:15:20,866 which for the first time in years was the appropriations process. 193 00:15:20,866 --> 00:15:25,866 Let's get back to that as soon as possible while they still have time to actually propose and to 194 00:15:28,266 --> 00:15:32,433 work on the modifications and additional things they want to do. And they have got a time frame 195 00:15:34,466 --> 00:15:36,466 that they have got to get things done in as well that they feel strongly about. I 196 00:15:36,466 --> 00:15:41,233 understand that. Let's get this government shutdown behind us and let's go to work. 197 00:15:41,233 --> 00:15:44,933 LISA DESJARDINS: Mass layoffs, the president is threatening them. Are 198 00:15:44,933 --> 00:15:47,600 those required in a shutdown or is that a policy choice? 199 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,633 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: I think it'll be a policy choice, but remember, 200 00:15:50,633 --> 00:15:55,633 as the chief executive officer, as the president of the United States, he has very broad authority. 201 00:15:57,466 --> 00:16:00,566 What our Democrat colleagues have got to remember is, if they make it easier 202 00:16:00,566 --> 00:16:05,533 for him to do those things, he has the decision-making process available to 203 00:16:07,666 --> 00:16:11,633 him. He could -- they can stop that right now by simply not having a government shutdown. 204 00:16:13,866 --> 00:16:16,200 LISA DESJARDINS: All right, Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota, thank you for joining us. 205 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,833 SEN. MIKE ROUNDS: Thank you. 206 00:16:17,833 --> 00:16:20,000 GEOFF BENNETT: And for a Democratic perspective on the shutdown, 207 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,900 we're joined now by Shalanda Young, former director of the Office of Management and 208 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:28,200 Budget under President Biden, now a distinguished scholar at NYU Law. 209 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,233 Thank you for being here. 210 00:16:30,233 --> 00:16:31,133 SHALANDA YOUNG, Former Director, Office of Management and Budget Director: Thank 211 00:16:31,133 --> 00:16:33,600 you for having me, Geoff. 212 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,700 GEOFF BENNETT: So President Trump and Russ Vought, his budget director, they are warning of permanent 213 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,266 layoffs, mass firings connected to this shutdown, a dramatic break from past practice. 214 00:16:42,033 --> 00:16:45,000 What do you make of the way Republicans are rewriting the rules here? 215 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,800 SHALANDA YOUNG: Geoff, this has nothing to do with the shutdown. This is in line 216 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,266 with everything we have seen from this administration. Who's to say those mass 217 00:16:53,266 --> 00:16:56,300 layoffs wouldn't happen if the government were open? 218 00:16:56,300 --> 00:17:01,300 Who's to say that wouldn't happen October 15 if a deal is reached to 219 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,833 reopen the government? You don't get extra authority to fire people because 220 00:17:05,833 --> 00:17:10,833 the government ran out of money. As the senator just said, this is a policy choice. 221 00:17:12,533 --> 00:17:15,933 They're making a policy to use the shutdown as an excuse, frankly, 222 00:17:17,966 --> 00:17:21,400 to undertake these mass firings, a continuation for what we have seen since January 21. 223 00:17:23,633 --> 00:17:27,300 Obviously, they want the shutdown theatrics around this announcement. But I can tell you one thing. 224 00:17:29,366 --> 00:17:33,000 I'm not sure, whether the government was open or not, if we would see anything different. 225 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,233 GEOFF BENNETT: So the shutdown gives them no extra authority. 226 00:17:36,233 --> 00:17:39,266 Would the firings, mass firings, even be legal? 227 00:17:39,266 --> 00:17:41,900 SHALANDA YOUNG: So, this is a great question. 228 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,433 When you have a lapse in funding, which is what this is -- Congress didn't do its 229 00:17:45,433 --> 00:17:50,433 job on time -- you usually furlough most staff and you only keep the staff who are essential, 230 00:17:52,633 --> 00:17:57,633 I mean essential, to the workings of government. We call them excepted staff, so our military 231 00:17:59,666 --> 00:18:02,833 around the world doing critical work. That should be a very limited number of people. 232 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,500 So what this tells me, if they made a decision that they're going to bring in 233 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:12,500 H.R. officials to undertake these firings. We're obviously bringing in I.T. people 234 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:19,700 during a shutdown to volunteer to put mass firing warnings on government Web sites. 235 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:25,133 So there is a legality question about whether they are using volunteer services and bringing in 236 00:18:28,066 --> 00:18:33,066 people not paid to do these things that obviously are not critical to the mission of government. 237 00:18:34,766 --> 00:18:37,200 GEOFF BENNETT: President Trump today said that he views this shutdown as 238 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,800 an unprecedented opportunity to slash more government agencies, 239 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,200 to cut more Democratic priorities. Russ Vought, as we said earlier in this broadcast, 240 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,000 one of the architects of Project 2025, he has openly argued for concentrating 241 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,533 power in the hands of Trump loyalists and dismantling traditional checks and balances. 242 00:18:54,533 --> 00:18:59,533 What I hear you say is that this budgeting piece is in many ways a pretext for a power grab. 243 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,033 SHALANDA YOUNG: That's exactly what I'm saying. It 244 00:19:03,033 --> 00:19:08,033 is -- this is a continuation of the same old, same old since January 21. 245 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,500 DOGE, Elon Musk, seems a long past away, but it's not, where we saw e-mails, 246 00:19:16,333 --> 00:19:19,833 tell me what you did yesterday or the day before or you will be fired, 247 00:19:19,833 --> 00:19:24,700 or I will fire someone this day and maybe bring them back if I made a mistake the next. 248 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:29,700 What's different now? Shutdown is being used as a pretext to do what they wanted 249 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,133 to do with government. As a matter of fact, they told us this in Project 2025. This was 250 00:19:37,266 --> 00:19:40,266 laid out for people. Now, we were told this administration wouldn't follow Project 2025, 251 00:19:42,033 --> 00:19:45,500 but here we go. We can check a box throughout that document. This is 252 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:50,300 exactly following that playbook, and shutdown is being used as a facade. 253 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:55,300 Look at the New York project, infrastructure project. The bridge is falling apart in New 254 00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,200 Jersey and New York. They didn't say for shutdown they were pulling that 255 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,200 money. They said it was DEI-related. So we see DEI being used as a pretext. We 256 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,166 see shutdown being used. They want to do these things, and they will find a way to do them. 257 00:20:09,166 --> 00:20:11,266 GEOFF BENNETT: On the other hand, 258 00:20:11,266 --> 00:20:15,400 what lessons can Democrats learn from the way Republicans are playing hardball here? 259 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:20,400 SHALANDA YOUNG: So I got to -- get this question all the time. How can Democrats win? I think, 260 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,800 if you start that way, it's a pretty cynical way of looking at government. 261 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,800 I don't think there's anyone that questions that Democrats believe government in its best form 262 00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:35,233 can work for the American people, that, in its best form, it helps working-class people enter 263 00:20:38,833 --> 00:20:43,800 into a path to the middle class, that it helps the middle class help their kids do better than them. 264 00:20:46,666 --> 00:20:51,633 No one questions the Democratic Party's commitment to making government work. So this is a difficult 265 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,400 place for someone like me, who did not preside over a shutdown in four years. That was not by 266 00:20:59,633 --> 00:21:03,400 accident. It's because we believed, with Joe Biden as president, myself at OMB, the right 267 00:21:05,533 --> 00:21:10,333 thing to do for the American people is have an open government that worked for both parties. 268 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,500 We sat down with Republicans every time. 269 00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,533 GEOFF BENNETT: How should Democrats then attempt to push back against 270 00:21:18,533 --> 00:21:22,600 what looks like this effort to dismantle government by attrition? 271 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,800 SHALANDA YOUNG: They have to tell the truth. They have -- this idea, 272 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,666 the news cycle of things coming at people, it's hard for people who are trying to pay bills. 273 00:21:31,666 --> 00:21:36,666 It's hard. I'm a mom of a 3-year-old. People are not paying attention to this day in, 274 00:21:38,833 --> 00:21:42,666 day out. But Democrats have to keep up the drumbeat. This is what's happening. It's not OK. 275 00:21:45,633 --> 00:21:50,600 And this idea that the government needs to reopen, let's press on that. The government 276 00:21:52,466 --> 00:21:55,700 is operating in ways it never has. Parts of the government are shut down now, 277 00:21:55,700 --> 00:22:00,700 even when the government was open. We see a collapse of norms in the government. I would 278 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,666 proffer that the government isn't operating the way it should in the first place. 279 00:22:05,666 --> 00:22:10,666 So this wave of magic wand, Democrats collapse, the government reopens, 280 00:22:12,633 --> 00:22:15,900 to what? Are you OK with status quo? A lot of Democrats are saying, no, they're not. 281 00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:19,666 GEOFF BENNETT: If Russ Vought wants to prevent agencies from receiving money 282 00:22:19,666 --> 00:22:24,666 that's already been appropriated, what can, what should Congress do? 283 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,266 SHALANDA YOUNG: So the judiciary is obviously involved. You see lawsuit after lawsuit. You see 284 00:22:29,266 --> 00:22:34,266 lower courts saying this is unconstitutional or against the statute. Presidents cannot impound. 285 00:22:36,366 --> 00:22:40,200 The Constitution has endowed the Congress with the right and the authority to spend money. 286 00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:43,900 That is a congressional right in the Constitution. 287 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:48,900 We get to the Supreme Court, and that's where it all falls apart. So who is it left to? It's 288 00:22:50,966 --> 00:22:55,533 left to the body that the founders said be a check on the presidency. Make no mistake, 289 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,433 this is more than this vote. This is a power grab by a presidency, by the executive branch. 290 00:23:06,066 --> 00:23:11,066 And Congress gave away the keys months ago. I'm an optimist. They can get it back. But Republicans 291 00:23:13,333 --> 00:23:16,666 have to work with Democrats. They don't work for the president. They work for their constituents. 292 00:23:18,166 --> 00:23:19,733 GEOFF BENNETT: When you have conversations with your former 293 00:23:19,733 --> 00:23:23,566 Biden administration colleagues, what do you make of all this? 294 00:23:23,566 --> 00:23:28,566 SHALANDA YOUNG: You know, elections have consequences. I have been around long enough not 295 00:23:30,933 --> 00:23:34,200 to cry in my milk because I see a policy that I disagree with. Obviously, I have worked to promote 296 00:23:36,533 --> 00:23:41,533 Democratic values and work on policies popular with the Democratic Party for 20-something years. 297 00:23:43,333 --> 00:23:46,533 I have been in the majority and the minority when I worked on Capitol Hill. 298 00:23:46,533 --> 00:23:50,700 So I'm over crying about things I don't like. Elections have consequences. This 299 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,700 feels different to someone who's done this a long time. This feels like a government that 300 00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:59,533 has chosen the very wealthy over working class and middle class. 301 00:23:59,533 --> 00:24:02,700 You look at this Big Beautiful Bill, not my name, 302 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:07,700 theirs, over the summer. You see over 16 million people who will lose their health 303 00:24:09,533 --> 00:24:13,000 care. You see the effort to pass tax breaks for millionaires over extending 304 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:19,700 help for those whose premium is about to go up. That's what Democrats are fighting for. 305 00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:23,833 They did it alone in the summer, and now they want Democrats to acquiesce 306 00:24:23,833 --> 00:24:27,733 after health care has been obliterated. And Democrats are saying, no, thank you. 307 00:24:27,733 --> 00:24:29,800 GEOFF BENNETT: Shalanda Young, thank you for being here. We appreciate it. 308 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,800 SHALANDA YOUNG: Thank you for having me. 309 00:24:44,133 --> 00:24:47,433 GEOFF BENNETT: The day's other headlines begin with a deadly attack at a British 310 00:24:47,433 --> 00:24:51,600 synagogue on Yom Kippur, the most solemn day in the Jewish calendar. 311 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,300 Police there are calling it a terrorist attack. 312 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:58,466 Two people were killed and four others were seriously wounded. The attacker, 313 00:24:58,466 --> 00:25:03,466 who officials say was a 35-year-old British citizen of Syrian descent, was shot dead. 314 00:25:05,733 --> 00:25:08,833 Paul Brand of Independent Television News brings us this report from the scene in Manchester. 315 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:13,100 PAUL BRAND: On the most holy day of the year for those of Jewish faith... 316 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:16,800 MAN: If you're not involved, move back! Get away! Somebody, 317 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,500 stay with the causalities! Everybody else, he has a bomb! Go away! 318 00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:22,300 MAN: He's got a bomb on him? 319 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:25,433 PAUL BRAND: He's already driven a car at people outside the synagogue 320 00:25:25,433 --> 00:25:30,433 in Crumpsall and attacked others with a knife. Now police take no chances, 321 00:25:32,266 --> 00:25:35,700 given his third potential weapon, the suspected bomb around his waist. 322 00:25:37,533 --> 00:25:41,866 The gunshots prove fatal, but so did his attack. For all the attacker's 323 00:25:43,733 --> 00:25:47,300 efforts to take more lives, security staff likely saved them by stopping 324 00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:52,900 him from getting inside the synagogue, as others nearby were taken to safety. 325 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:58,400 JOSH ARONSON, Eyewitness: As they evacuated us, I walked past the rabbi, 326 00:26:00,366 --> 00:26:03,466 Rabbi Daniel Walker. Now, they were pushing us forward. But I did see. Now, 327 00:26:05,333 --> 00:26:09,466 on this day, it's a day of prayer. And on this day, we pray with a long white 328 00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:15,233 robe on this day. And I saw at the bottom of the robe there were specks of blood. 329 00:26:17,266 --> 00:26:21,066 PAUL BRAND: It was hours before police could get near the suspect to identify him. First, 330 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,100 bomb disposal teams had to be called in before what sounded like a controlled explosion. 331 00:26:28,933 --> 00:26:33,666 In this picture, you can see a knife lying near the attacker's head with 332 00:26:33,666 --> 00:26:38,666 the suspected bomb to his right, just one clue as to his motive. 333 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,766 SIR STEPHEN WATSON, Chief Constable, Greater Manchester Police: This attack 334 00:26:42,766 --> 00:26:44,900 has been officially declared as a terrorist incident and the investigation is now being 335 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,066 led by counterterrorist police. As has been confirmed by C.T. policing we believe that the 336 00:26:54,633 --> 00:26:59,633 identity of the offender has been established, but until we are certain of this fact, 337 00:27:01,433 --> 00:27:05,333 it is premature to set out this detail at this juncture. 338 00:27:05,333 --> 00:27:10,066 PAUL BRAND: This part of Manchester is home to Britain's second largest Jewish population, 339 00:27:10,066 --> 00:27:14,633 but it's home to other communities too. As in many cities, the relations, 340 00:27:14,633 --> 00:27:19,633 the potential tensions between them have been a cause of acute concern in recent years, 341 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:24,666 the fear that global events could make people local targets of hatred. 342 00:27:26,433 --> 00:27:29,600 This afternoon, the prime minister flew home from a European summit in 343 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,533 Denmark to chair an emergency meeting and reassure the Jewish community. 344 00:27:34,533 --> 00:27:39,533 KEIR STARMER, British Prime Minister: Earlier today, a vile individual committed a terrorist 345 00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,600 attack and attacked Jews because they are Jews. And so I promise you that I will do 346 00:27:47,333 --> 00:27:52,333 everything in my power to guarantee you the security that you deserve, 347 00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:57,633 starting with a more visible police presence protecting your community. 348 00:27:59,666 --> 00:28:03,600 PAUL BRAND: Yom Kippur is a time of repentance for Jewish people, of confessing sins. But as 349 00:28:05,633 --> 00:28:09,233 they worship in Crumpsall tonight, who will atone for the violence committed against them? 350 00:28:10,266 --> 00:28:13,100 Paul Brand, ITV News, Manchester. 351 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:16,700 GEOFF BENNETT: Also today, President Trump says the U.S. is now in armed 352 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:20,400 conflict with drug cartels operating in the Caribbean. That's according to 353 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,700 a memo that was sent to Congress and obtained by multiple media outlets. 354 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:29,100 The document reportedly refers to cartel members as -- quote -- "unlawful combatants" 355 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:33,500 and states that the U.S. must use force in self-defense and defense 356 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:38,300 of others against the ongoing attacks by these designated terrorist organizations. 357 00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:42,933 News of the memo first reported by The New York Times comes after President Trump posted 358 00:28:42,933 --> 00:28:47,900 videos like this of strikes on boats that he claimed were bringing drugs to the U.S. 359 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:52,900 Human rights groups and several U.S. senators have questioned the legality of those strikes. 360 00:28:55,166 --> 00:28:58,300 The White House is asking nine major universities to align themselves with President Trump's 361 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:02,700 political priorities in exchange for federal funding. Schools would have to agree to certain 362 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:07,700 terms related to women's sports, free speech on campus and student discipline, among others. And 363 00:29:09,833 --> 00:29:13,300 international enrollment would be capped at 15 percent of the undergraduate student body. 364 00:29:15,433 --> 00:29:18,333 In exchange, schools would get priority access to some federal grants. The nine institutions 365 00:29:20,266 --> 00:29:23,433 include the University of Pennsylvania, Brown, the University of Texas at Austin, 366 00:29:23,433 --> 00:29:28,433 and MIT. It was not immediately clear how those schools were chosen or whether others may follow. 367 00:29:30,166 --> 00:29:33,266 Officials in Memphis are preparing for the arrival of additional 368 00:29:33,266 --> 00:29:38,266 federal authorities as part of a broader Trump administration push into the nation's cities. 369 00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:42,633 Senior administration officials visited Memphis yesterday, with White House Deputy 370 00:29:42,633 --> 00:29:47,633 Chief of Staff Stephen Miller telling officers they're being unleashed to tackle crime there. 371 00:29:49,566 --> 00:29:52,400 Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen, who represents Memphis, is pushing back, 372 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,400 writing that: "We are not a training ground or target practice," while, in Oregon, a judge is 373 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:02,666 set to hear a legal challenge tomorrow against the deployment of National Guard troops there, 374 00:30:04,566 --> 00:30:07,733 all that as some immigrant communities in Chicago are on edge after federal 375 00:30:07,733 --> 00:30:12,733 authorities carried out a late night raid this past week, arresting at least 37 people. 376 00:30:14,266 --> 00:30:18,233 In Gaza, Israeli attacks killed dozens of Palestinians overnight, 377 00:30:18,233 --> 00:30:21,833 as the world waits for an official response from Hamas to President 378 00:30:21,833 --> 00:30:26,300 Trump's proposal on ending the war. According to hospitals in the region, 379 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:31,300 at least 41 people were killed across the Strip by Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks. 380 00:30:33,466 --> 00:30:36,500 Meantime, several boats bound for Gaza began trickling into Israeli ports today after they 381 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,200 were intercepted by Israel's military. Hundreds on board were arrested, including European 382 00:30:44,433 --> 00:30:47,700 lawmakers and climate activist Greta Thunberg, who recorded this video before being detained. 383 00:30:49,933 --> 00:30:52,066 GRETA THUNBERG, Climate Activist: If you are watching this video, I have been abducted and 384 00:30:52,066 --> 00:30:56,266 taken against my will by Israeli forces. Our humanitarian mission was nonviolent and abiding 385 00:30:58,666 --> 00:31:02,200 by international law. Please tell my government to demand my and the others' immediate release. 386 00:31:08,333 --> 00:31:10,500 PROTESTER: Free, free Palestine! PROTESTERS: Free, free Palestine! 387 00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:13,600 GEOFF BENNETT: Protests broke out in cities across the world today, condemning Israel's 388 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,600 interception of the aid flotilla and its ongoing military campaign in Gaza. 389 00:31:20,566 --> 00:31:23,333 Back in this country, authorities are investigating what they call a low-speed 390 00:31:23,333 --> 00:31:28,000 collision involving two Delta Air Lines' regional jets at New York's La Guardia 391 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,066 Airport last night. The cockpit of one plane was damaged in the incident, 392 00:31:32,066 --> 00:31:37,066 as was the wing of the other. This animation shows the path of the two planes on the taxiway. 393 00:31:39,433 --> 00:31:43,066 One was preparing to take off to Virginia while the other had just arrived from North Carolina. 394 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:47,633 In a statement, Delta apologized to its customers and said the airline will work 395 00:31:47,633 --> 00:31:51,466 with all relevant authorities to review what occurred. One flight 396 00:31:51,466 --> 00:31:55,533 attendant was taken to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries. 397 00:31:55,533 --> 00:32:00,533 The FDA's approval of another generic version of the abortion pill mifepristone has sparked 398 00:32:02,533 --> 00:32:06,033 a fierce conservative backlash. Drugmaker Evita Solutions said that officials signed 399 00:32:08,166 --> 00:32:11,300 off on its low-cost form of the pill, which is approved to end pregnancies through 10 weeks. 400 00:32:13,033 --> 00:32:15,600 The group Students For Life Action called the approval a stain on the 401 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,600 Trump presidency and another sign that the deep state at the FDA must go. 402 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,400 The criticism comes as Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 403 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,400 faces growing pressure to restrict abortion access. Mifepristone was first approved 25 404 00:32:31,333 --> 00:32:34,900 years ago and has been repeatedly ruled safe and effective by FDA scientists. 405 00:32:36,866 --> 00:32:40,233 On Wall Street today, stocks crept higher thanks to gains in technology shares. 406 00:32:40,233 --> 00:32:44,066 The Dow Jones industrial average added nearly 80 points. The Nasdaq 407 00:32:44,066 --> 00:32:49,066 rose almost 90 points. The S&P 500 ended just a touch higher on the day. 408 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:53,466 Still to come on the "News Hour": a refugee living in the U.S. expresses 409 00:32:53,466 --> 00:32:58,166 fears of being deported to a country he barely knows; and a book on the history 410 00:32:58,166 --> 00:33:03,133 of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process gives valuable insight into the current negotiations. 411 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:18,100 AMNA NAWAZ: Two COVID-era Medicare programs, telehealth benefits and in-home hospital care, 412 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,200 have ended abruptly for millions of Americans as a result of the government shutdown. Authorization 413 00:33:34,366 --> 00:33:37,700 for both expired on September 30 and Congress failed to pass a new budget plan for either. 414 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:43,133 That means many seniors on Medicare can no longer use telehealth services. The program 415 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,300 now reverts to pre-pandemic criteria, meaning Medicare enrollees in rural 416 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:53,300 areas can still use telehealth, but in a designated hospital or clinic. Meanwhile, 417 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,833 in-home care recipients will either be discharged or go back into inpatient hospital care. 418 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,466 For more on this, I'm joined by Kyle Zebley. He's senior vice 419 00:34:02,466 --> 00:34:06,300 president of public policy at the American Telemedicine Association. 420 00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:08,633 Thank you for being here. 421 00:34:08,633 --> 00:34:09,733 KYLE ZEBLEY, Senior Vice President of Public Policy, American Telemedicine Association: It's 422 00:34:09,733 --> 00:34:11,233 great to be here. Thanks so much. 423 00:34:11,233 --> 00:34:12,800 AMNA NAWAZ: Let's take each of these programs in turn. 424 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,333 When it comes to telehealth and the virtual appointments, 425 00:34:14,333 --> 00:34:17,500 we saw a surge of use in the pandemic, some seven million 426 00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:22,066 people using it last year. Who's going to be most impacted by this shutdown? 427 00:34:22,066 --> 00:34:26,133 KYLE ZEBLEY: By our older Americans and most disabled Americans. They had access to something 428 00:34:26,133 --> 00:34:30,866 when they went to bed on Tuesday night. They woke up with the government shutdown on Wednesday, 429 00:34:30,866 --> 00:34:35,866 and they found out that they no longer have access to these programs and flexibilities 430 00:34:37,933 --> 00:34:40,066 that have been in place for more than five years, since the beginning of the decade, 431 00:34:40,066 --> 00:34:45,066 since right before the real impact of the COVID-19 pandemic came to the United States. 432 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:48,966 AMNA NAWAZ: And the change is now reverting to these pre-pandemic criteria. Explain 433 00:34:48,966 --> 00:34:52,066 that to me. If you're enrolled in Medicare and you live in a rural area, 434 00:34:52,066 --> 00:34:54,700 you can still use it, but in a very specific way? 435 00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:59,100 KYLE ZEBLEY: That's right. And you said it well at the outset. You have to meet two criteria. 436 00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:02,633 And you have to meet both. You have to be in a defined rural area and you 437 00:35:02,633 --> 00:35:06,300 have to be within the four walls of a Medicare provider's office. 438 00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:10,466 It's head-spinning to go back to these restrictions. They were put in place 439 00:35:10,466 --> 00:35:15,333 in law in 1997. That may have been advanced at that time. The technology 440 00:35:15,333 --> 00:35:18,466 had moved forward leaps and bounds by the beginning of the decade, before the 441 00:35:18,466 --> 00:35:23,433 COVID-19 pandemic. We had been clamoring to get these flexibilities put in place. 442 00:35:23,433 --> 00:35:27,266 And it took the COVID-19 pandemic to do it. Now, unfortunately, 443 00:35:27,266 --> 00:35:31,900 all that progress goes away and has been now two days into this shutdown. 444 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,500 AMNA NAWAZ: So, potentially, we're talking about millions of people having their health care, 445 00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,533 access to health care impacted. What does that mean, big picture? 446 00:35:38,533 --> 00:35:40,666 KYLE ZEBLEY: Well, it means, most importantly, 447 00:35:40,666 --> 00:35:44,300 that patients are worse off today. They have less access than they did two days ago. 448 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:49,300 It means that, for patients receiving cancer care, mental health areas of treatment, 449 00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:55,400 primary care treatments and visits, they no longer have access to this 450 00:35:57,233 --> 00:35:59,100 care that's clinically appropriate care, that meets them where they are, 451 00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,400 that is far more flexible than, of course, going into in-person settings. 452 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,400 It drags us backwards, not only to the beginning of the decade, really, again, 453 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,400 in effect, in 1997, when these provisions were previously put into place in law. 454 00:36:13,366 --> 00:36:15,833 AMNA NAWAZ: And hospital systems, health care providers have a choice to make here, 455 00:36:15,833 --> 00:36:20,666 I assume. Could they continue to provide this care and hope they get reimbursed? Are any doing that? 456 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,033 KYLE ZEBLEY: So, many are making really tough decisions. They are either making the 457 00:36:25,033 --> 00:36:29,200 determination that they don't have the financial wherewithal to potentially eat these costs. And, 458 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,300 therefore, unfortunately, they're alerting patients now every day, 459 00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:35,900 every hour, practically speaking, across the country that they're no longer going to get 460 00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:39,900 those telehealth services they have come to rely on that's expanded access to care. 461 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,800 There are other health care systems and Medicare providers and provider 462 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,266 groups that are saying, we're going to weather the storm, 463 00:36:45,266 --> 00:36:48,633 at least for a little while. We're going to continue to offer these services because 464 00:36:48,633 --> 00:36:52,866 we want to continue to offer care to these patients we care so much about. 465 00:36:54,666 --> 00:36:57,266 And, hopefully, the federal government and Congress will come together, 466 00:36:57,266 --> 00:37:02,266 bring these programs back, and retroactively pay for the services that were rendered during 467 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,366 this lapse. That's certainly what we're asking for. And we hope our bipartisan 468 00:37:06,366 --> 00:37:10,533 telehealth champions will get it done when cooler heads prevail and the shutdown ends. 469 00:37:10,533 --> 00:37:12,100 AMNA NAWAZ: There's also this other program, 470 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:14,866 the in-home hospital services program that's been paused. 471 00:37:14,866 --> 00:37:18,000 So, patients, my understanding, are basically monitored virtually, 472 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,933 and they get daily provider visits. So what happens to those patients now? 473 00:37:22,933 --> 00:37:26,633 KYLE ZEBLEY: This is really clear-cut. If there's any ambiguity or flexibility that 474 00:37:26,633 --> 00:37:30,466 is present for the Medicare telehealth flexibilities, that's not present here. 475 00:37:30,466 --> 00:37:34,133 The Office of Management and Budget and the administration has made very 476 00:37:34,133 --> 00:37:39,133 clear that that program has ended, and it ended effective October 1 yesterday. 477 00:37:41,133 --> 00:37:43,733 And they had instructed anybody that was participating in that program they need to 478 00:37:43,733 --> 00:37:48,466 be either, as you said, sent home or they need to go back into a hospital setting. 479 00:37:48,466 --> 00:37:52,233 They were comfortable at their home. They were getting clinically appropriate care. They were 480 00:37:52,233 --> 00:37:55,500 getting care that they wanted to receive in this manner at a convalescent home. 481 00:37:55,500 --> 00:38:00,533 It also opened up capacity in the hospitals. That capacity increase has now, of course, gone away, 482 00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:06,666 and it's really stressing our overburdened health care system to force this to go back into place. 483 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:09,766 AMNA NAWAZ: Even just in the last 24, 48 hours, 484 00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:12,366 are you seeing the impact of that? Are facilities becoming more crowded? 485 00:38:12,366 --> 00:38:16,933 KYLE ZEBLEY: Oh, it's a devastating impact. It set us back again significantly from 486 00:38:16,933 --> 00:38:20,866 bipartisan hard-won progress that we have made since the beginning of the pandemic. 487 00:38:20,866 --> 00:38:22,833 What's a real tragedy about this is, 488 00:38:22,833 --> 00:38:26,533 yes, Americans are losing out. They're losing out every day, increasingly so, 489 00:38:26,533 --> 00:38:31,200 the longer that these flexibilities have lapsed. And it's a real shame because these are popular 490 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,000 bipartisan programs put in place by President Trump, kept in place on a bipartisan basis in 491 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,400 Congress really with no stated opposition throughout the Biden/Harris administration. 492 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,633 President Trump's been on the record in support. 493 00:38:42,633 --> 00:38:46,633 He already signed an extension of these flexibilities earlier this year. We really 494 00:38:46,633 --> 00:38:51,200 want to get out of these short -- the short-term thinking, get out of this discussion of having 495 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,833 endless short-term extensions. These programs should be made permanent. And if things were 496 00:38:55,833 --> 00:38:59,600 functioning as I think they should, we would have been made permanent long ago. 497 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,733 But here we are, despite all that broad-based 498 00:39:01,733 --> 00:39:06,466 popularity, caught up as a victim of circumstance because of the shutdown. 499 00:39:06,466 --> 00:39:11,266 AMNA NAWAZ: Well, until that shutdown ends, for anyone watching this at home who may be impacted 500 00:39:11,266 --> 00:39:15,800 by either one of these changes, what's your best advice to them? What are their options? 501 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,800 KYLE ZEBLEY: Well, their options are to hope that their providers and their health care 502 00:39:22,766 --> 00:39:25,266 systems that they're working with have the ability to continue to deliver that care, 503 00:39:25,266 --> 00:39:27,600 even though they might not be covered and reimbursed. 504 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,400 But most importantly and ideally, they pick up the phone, they call their member of Congress, 505 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,700 and they say please end this shutdown of the Medicare telehealth flexibilities and 506 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,533 acute hospital care at home. You don't want to sit on the sidelines if you care about 507 00:39:40,533 --> 00:39:44,466 this if your loved ones are depending on it, if you yourself are depending on it. 508 00:39:44,466 --> 00:39:49,466 You need to have that agency to try to make sure Congress gets the message that it's unacceptable 509 00:39:51,466 --> 00:39:54,633 to have these popular bipartisan programs lapse. And we shouldn't be a victim of this 510 00:39:54,633 --> 00:39:59,400 other dynamic that has nothing to do with our community and the people that rely on telehealth. 511 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,533 AMNA NAWAZ: Kyle Zebley with the American Telemedicine Association, 512 00:40:02,533 --> 00:40:03,966 thank you so much for being here. 513 00:40:03,966 --> 00:40:07,266 KYLE ZEBLEY: Thank you. 514 00:40:07,266 --> 00:40:12,266 GEOFF BENNETT: 515 00:40:14,466 --> 00:40:19,133 As President Trump intensifies his sweeping crackdown on immigration, more longtime residents, 516 00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:24,000 people who have lived in this country for years, are being caught up in the effort. 517 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,433 Stephanie Sy has more. 518 00:40:26,433 --> 00:40:28,866 STEPHANIE SY: We have seen over and over again this year the 519 00:40:28,866 --> 00:40:33,866 detention of U.S. residents who were previously not at risk of deportation. 520 00:40:35,666 --> 00:40:38,900 This has included Laotian refugees displaced after the Vietnam War. 521 00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:43,300 Students of history might recall that Laos was bombed relentlessly by the U.S. 522 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:48,266 in the 1960s and 70s. In the tumultuous years that followed the end of the war, 523 00:40:49,966 --> 00:40:53,866 thousands of Laotian families were resettled in the U.S. as refugees. 524 00:40:53,866 --> 00:40:58,033 Now, a criminal conviction can threaten a refugee's legal status, 525 00:40:58,033 --> 00:41:03,000 but, for decades, Laotians in that situation were allowed to remain here because there is 526 00:41:05,066 --> 00:41:08,333 no repatriation agreement between the U.S. and Laos. That has changed. In recent months, 527 00:41:10,066 --> 00:41:14,466 deportation flights to Laos have resumed for the first time in years. 528 00:41:14,466 --> 00:41:18,533 One of those affected is Alan Phetsadakone. He arrived in the 529 00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:23,433 United States as a toddler. And today he faces the threat of deportation. 530 00:41:23,433 --> 00:41:25,933 Alan, thank you for being with us. 531 00:41:25,933 --> 00:41:28,066 ALAN PHETSADAKONE, Laotian Refugee: Thank you for having me. 532 00:41:28,066 --> 00:41:31,600 STEPHANIE SY: I want to go back to what happened over the summer, when you were detained. 533 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,733 It's July. You go in for an annual appointment with immigration officials 534 00:41:35,733 --> 00:41:39,833 that I understand you have gone to without incident for years. But you end up being 535 00:41:39,833 --> 00:41:44,733 detained for nearly two months. Alan, what was your immediate reaction when 536 00:41:44,733 --> 00:41:49,733 you were arrested? What were you told about why this was happening to you? 537 00:41:49,733 --> 00:41:53,533 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: First of all, I was shocked, scared, 538 00:41:53,533 --> 00:41:58,500 worried. I was just speechless. And I couldn't think of anything else. 539 00:42:00,633 --> 00:42:05,633 Everything was taken away from me. Just in the blink of an eye, I lost everything, 540 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:11,900 just not knowing what's going to happen next, not knowing what's going to happen to my life, 541 00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:16,900 my family, my kids, just all the loved ones, not knowing what's going to happen to myself. 542 00:42:18,766 --> 00:42:22,266 The ICE agent had mentioned to me that my supervision had been revoked, 543 00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:27,100 and that was all I was told. 544 00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:32,100 STEPHANIE SY: OK, and so then you're in this facility in Tacoma for two months. 545 00:42:33,833 --> 00:42:37,333 What were conditions like? How were you housed? And were you 546 00:42:37,333 --> 00:42:40,400 able to see your children and your family? 547 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,400 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: Yes, I was fortunate enough to see my family, my life, 548 00:42:46,733 --> 00:42:51,000 my kids, just because I'm local here in Seattle. 549 00:42:53,166 --> 00:42:56,600 The housing unit I was in, we -- they housed around 70 to 80 detainees at any given time. 550 00:42:59,766 --> 00:43:04,733 It's an open unit. The light stays on 24 hours a day. You just have four walls, no windows, 551 00:43:06,966 --> 00:43:11,800 limited time to be in the outdoor yard. It's frustrating. It leaves you hopeless, stressed. 552 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:21,333 STEPHANIE SY: I want to talk a little bit more about your distant past, because, 553 00:43:21,333 --> 00:43:26,333 when you were detained back in July, you were already under a deportation 554 00:43:28,466 --> 00:43:31,633 order that dated back to 1998, and that was because you had been convicted on bank fraud. 555 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,933 Alan, what do you want people to understand and know about that old 556 00:43:36,933 --> 00:43:41,933 conviction and that time in your life? Because you were only 18 at that time, 557 00:43:43,633 --> 00:43:46,433 and, from what I have read, you had had a really tough childhood. 558 00:43:46,433 --> 00:43:51,433 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: Correct. I had a tough childhood growing up, losing my brother from 559 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:57,933 committing suicide, losing my grandma that raised me, not having a stable household. 560 00:43:59,433 --> 00:44:02,466 It was just tough growing up, having a baby, a newborn, 561 00:44:02,466 --> 00:44:07,466 when I was 17. I made a mistake. And moving forward, I'm an adult now, and a responsible 562 00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:14,900 adult with a loving family. I have built my whole entire life here with my family. 563 00:44:17,266 --> 00:44:20,500 STEPHANIE SY: So you were released, Alan, by a federal judge a few weeks ago, last month. Your 564 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,333 lawyers, from what I understand, are working on getting that old case vacated in federal court. 565 00:44:27,666 --> 00:44:30,933 How much time do they have? Do you know how much 566 00:44:30,933 --> 00:44:35,933 time you have before you may wake up and have to get on a plane and be deported? 567 00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,933 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: I have no idea. This is one of 568 00:44:40,933 --> 00:44:45,933 the uncertainty that's -- that I feel as if I'm a lost soul. 569 00:44:47,666 --> 00:44:51,500 And I don't know what's going to happen to me tomorrow or two months 570 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:55,433 from now or a year from now. I don't know. And it puts my life on hold, 571 00:44:55,433 --> 00:45:00,466 and my family's life and everybody that's close to me. That's stressful. And even though -- however, 572 00:45:02,566 --> 00:45:07,000 I'm released. I'm thankful. But the stress and the uncertainty is -- it's never going away. 573 00:45:09,233 --> 00:45:14,133 STEPHANIE SY: And your wife and your kids, they are U.S. citizens, right? How are they 574 00:45:14,133 --> 00:45:19,133 coping with all of this? And is there sort of a worst-case scenario that you can prepare for? 575 00:45:21,533 --> 00:45:25,133 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: We haven't prepared, because we never thought that this day would come. After 576 00:45:27,233 --> 00:45:31,466 25 years, 30 years, we just never thought back of it. We have never prepared for this. 577 00:45:33,266 --> 00:45:36,800 Kind of talked more about it this year because of what we see on 578 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,800 the news of what's going on. It never got out of our sight since this year. 579 00:45:43,566 --> 00:45:46,300 STEPHANIE SY: Alan, what worst-case scenario might you be preparing for 580 00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:51,300 at this point? Could you start over in Laos? Have you thought about that? 581 00:45:53,033 --> 00:45:55,333 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: I have not thought about starting over in Laos, 582 00:45:55,333 --> 00:46:00,400 as I -- I don't know where to start and where to begin. I don't have any family. 583 00:46:02,533 --> 00:46:05,800 As -- you know, if I got sent back to Laos, I would just be on my own. I wouldn't know where 584 00:46:07,733 --> 00:46:12,733 to begin. It'll be a brand-new country, a brand-new life at such an old age. 585 00:46:16,533 --> 00:46:21,533 So I don't know where to begin. I don't know where to start. Everything I have known, that's here. 586 00:46:24,533 --> 00:46:26,466 STEPHANIE SY: I understand you have been getting a 587 00:46:26,466 --> 00:46:30,333 lot of support from people who have heard your story, including those... 588 00:46:30,333 --> 00:46:32,133 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: Yes. 589 00:46:32,133 --> 00:46:33,733 STEPHANIE SY: ... who have raised money for your family on GoFundMe. 590 00:46:33,733 --> 00:46:36,233 Can you talk about what that support has meant to 591 00:46:36,233 --> 00:46:41,166 you and your family and what else you feel you really need right now? 592 00:46:41,166 --> 00:46:44,000 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: You know, that support has been 593 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,000 tremendous. It's been everything. It's been a reflection of me just being a good person, 594 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,600 moving on from my past, building a community, having my family around. 595 00:47:01,733 --> 00:47:05,200 What I need now is just the support and the 596 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:10,200 fight to prevail from this -- from this immigration madness. 597 00:47:11,733 --> 00:47:14,300 STEPHANIE SY: Alan, thank you so much for agreeing to share 598 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:17,633 your story with us. We wish you the best of luck. 599 00:47:17,633 --> 00:47:19,733 ALAN PHETSADAKONE: Thank you, Stephanie. 600 00:47:19,733 --> 00:47:22,466 GEOFF BENNETT: And, late today, the "News Hour" received a response from the Department of 601 00:47:22,466 --> 00:47:27,466 Homeland Security about this case, saying he has four convictions for larceny and fraud, going on 602 00:47:29,533 --> 00:47:33,066 to say -- quote -- "Thanks to an activist judge, this criminal is now loose on America's streets." 603 00:47:36,933 --> 00:47:41,933 AMNA NAWAZ: 604 00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:49,300 Leaders from Egypt, Qatar and Turkey are all trying to convince Hamas to accept President 605 00:47:51,633 --> 00:47:54,333 Trump's peace plan to end the war in Gaza. That's a plan Israel has already agreed to. Hamas is 606 00:47:56,333 --> 00:47:59,666 still weighing the deal, but reportedly considers some parts of it unacceptable. 607 00:47:59,666 --> 00:48:03,500 It's a crucial moment, and it's a continuation of past American 608 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,800 efforts to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 609 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,133 Nick Schifrin has more on the historical context. 610 00:48:10,133 --> 00:48:14,133 NICK SCHIFRIN: For decades, the U.S. has tried to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 611 00:48:14,133 --> 00:48:19,100 Those efforts, despite deep passion among the mediators and endless work with both sides, 612 00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:24,100 failed. Why? And is there a direct line from the success of the Oslo Accords in 1993 to the 613 00:48:26,033 --> 00:48:30,200 horrific violence of the October 7 terrorist attacks and subsequent Israeli war in Gaza? 614 00:48:32,333 --> 00:48:35,600 Those are the questions being asked by Robert Malley, who 25 years ago participated in peace 615 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,733 talks at Camp David. He later worked with the Obama administration on Mideast peace, as 616 00:48:39,733 --> 00:48:44,633 well as negotiating with Iran, a role he resumed during the beginning of the Biden administration. 617 00:48:44,633 --> 00:48:49,433 And now Malley has written a new book co-authored with longtime Palestinian negotiator Hussein Agha 618 00:48:49,433 --> 00:48:54,300 called "Tomorrow Is Yesterday: Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel/Palestine." 619 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:56,933 Rob Malley, thanks very much. Welcome back to the "News Hour." 620 00:48:56,933 --> 00:49:00,500 The title is "Tomorrow Is Yesterday." And you write this in the prologue: 621 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:03,733 "Israelis and Palestinians are back where they were decades ago." 622 00:49:03,733 --> 00:49:07,900 But from the outside, things look, in many ways, worse than ever. So why that title? 623 00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:10,066 ROBERT MALLEY, Co-Author, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday: 624 00:49:10,066 --> 00:49:12,333 Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel/Palestine": That's a good way to start. 625 00:49:12,333 --> 00:49:14,533 Let's look at where we are today, which is what propelled us to write this book, Palestinians 626 00:49:14,533 --> 00:49:19,133 being forced to flee and then flee from the area that they just fled, and then being bombed in 627 00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,800 the place that they were told to take refuge from the first bomb, being deprived of food, 628 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,033 of water, everything, Israelis on October 7 being the victim of a massacre, Palestinians resorting 629 00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:35,433 to individual acts of violence, doing what they can, because vengeance is their only horizon. 630 00:49:35,433 --> 00:49:40,433 So, we are where we were in the past, and the real question is, how come, after -- from '92 to now, 631 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,100 look at where we are, and the explanation, to really sum it up in one word, 632 00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:51,900 is that this American-led peace process was meaningless. It was fleeting. It didn't have 633 00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:56,900 any real roots on the ground with Israelis and Palestinians. It ended up being a lot of hot air. 634 00:49:59,233 --> 00:50:02,600 NICK SCHIFRIN: So let's go back to where we define the modern peace process, 1993, the Oslo Accords. 635 00:50:04,666 --> 00:50:07,733 And you write this -- quote -- "Israeli and Palestinian leaders for a while invested 636 00:50:07,733 --> 00:50:12,533 in diplomacy, but each diplomatic venture ended in failure. In the end, 637 00:50:12,533 --> 00:50:17,533 what mattered was the balance of power and brute force. Those who mattered most knew it best." 638 00:50:19,333 --> 00:50:21,400 How so? 639 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,600 ROBERT MALLEY: Let's look again at what happened in Oslo. Each side thought they 640 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,233 were getting something that, in fact, they really didn't achieve. 641 00:50:26,233 --> 00:50:30,233 The Palestinians thought, we have made this big concession by accepting the fact there would be 642 00:50:30,233 --> 00:50:34,666 an Israeli state, a state of Israel on the borders of 1967, and they thought that, in exchange, they 643 00:50:34,666 --> 00:50:38,033 were going to get sovereignty, they were going to get justice, they were going to get their state. 644 00:50:38,033 --> 00:50:41,466 The Israelis thought, we're going to recognize the Palestinian Liberation 645 00:50:41,466 --> 00:50:44,500 Organization as a representative of the Palestinian people, and we're going to 646 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:48,733 give them some ability to govern themselves. And in exchange, we're going to get full security. 647 00:50:48,733 --> 00:50:52,100 Neither side was prepared to do what the other side expected of 648 00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:56,100 them. There was never any congruence between what the Israelis wanted and 649 00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:01,066 what the Palestinians wanted. So what were the foundations of this peace process? Not much. 650 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,866 And it turns out the Israelis quickly realized what's going to matter or facts on the ground, 651 00:51:06,866 --> 00:51:10,800 settlement construction, making sure that they could repress any signs of 652 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,600 Palestinian activism. And on the Palestinian side, they never really gave up violence, 653 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,100 because that was the one language that they felt the Israelis would understand. 654 00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:21,100 NICK SCHIFRIN: And in the middle of that were the Americans. 655 00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:26,100 And this is what you write about American participation in this process: 656 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,433 "The American objective was to get Israelis and Palestinians to speak the right words, 657 00:51:31,433 --> 00:51:35,433 sign the right piece of paper, overcome textual gaps. The Israeli 658 00:51:35,433 --> 00:51:39,833 and Palestinian objectives were to get the Americans off their backs." 659 00:51:39,833 --> 00:51:43,633 ROBERT MALLEY: We were so focused on, can we get them to agree on what it would mean if they -- if 660 00:51:43,633 --> 00:51:47,933 there was a Palestinian state, just words on a piece of paper, without coming to terms with 661 00:51:47,933 --> 00:51:52,900 the nature of this conflict, the nature of this beast, which was a historical clash of narratives. 662 00:51:54,866 --> 00:51:58,900 From the Israeli perspective, they won in 1948. They won in 1967. And each time, 663 00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:02,533 they keep winning and the Palestinians keep asking for more. And the Palestinians believe that they 664 00:52:02,533 --> 00:52:07,533 were victims of a historic injustice in 1948, 700,000 Palestinians expelled, loss of their land. 665 00:52:08,833 --> 00:52:11,833 And so for us Americans to come in and say, well, 666 00:52:11,833 --> 00:52:15,100 let's just paper over these differences, forget about the right of return, 667 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:19,833 forget about Israeli historic grievances and Palestinian historic grievances, 668 00:52:19,833 --> 00:52:23,900 put a bow around it and call this peace, that was never going to fly with the parties. 669 00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:28,233 You can't but conclude the fact from what's happened between the 1990s to today there has 670 00:52:28,233 --> 00:52:31,100 to be a connection between what happened then and what happened on October 7 and 671 00:52:31,100 --> 00:52:34,300 afterward. It's not like these are two completely disconnected events. 672 00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:35,600 NICK SCHIFRIN: What do you see that connection as? 673 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,166 ROBERT MALLEY: The connection is, again, 674 00:52:37,166 --> 00:52:41,100 the failures of these efforts to reach this two-state solution. 675 00:52:41,100 --> 00:52:44,800 On the ground, everything was moving in the direction that was inconsistent 676 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,200 with the two-state solution. And Americans and Europeans and others were repeating the mantra, 677 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,800 we're moving toward a two-state solution, an irreversible path to two-state solution. 678 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,866 NICK SCHIFRIN: And yet you and Hussein do write this: "There were moments when 679 00:52:55,866 --> 00:53:00,833 a different outcome might have been possible, but history would have needed a mediator with vision, 680 00:53:02,666 --> 00:53:05,033 nuanced understanding of the politics and psychology of the two sides, 681 00:53:05,033 --> 00:53:09,400 and a willingness to exert power equally on and against both." 682 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,366 ROBERT MALLEY: Sure. 683 00:53:11,366 --> 00:53:13,333 I think there was a naivete in thinking at times that we were close to a deal, 684 00:53:13,333 --> 00:53:17,433 when nothing had been achieved, and I think just strategic misunderstanding 685 00:53:19,133 --> 00:53:21,266 of the conflict. The origins of this idea of a two-state solution, 686 00:53:21,266 --> 00:53:24,133 they didn't start with Israelis or Palestinians. They started from the outside. 687 00:53:24,133 --> 00:53:28,700 This notion of partition was alien, and Israelis and Palestinians never 688 00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:33,666 were enthusiastic about it. It was never their natural landing place. And, today, 689 00:53:33,666 --> 00:53:37,600 with everything having moved in the opposite direction, with each side convinced that the 690 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,333 other side wants its destruction, its eradication, how could there be support 691 00:53:41,333 --> 00:53:45,733 for a two-state solution other than in the hallways of diplomatic corridors? 692 00:53:45,733 --> 00:53:50,000 NICK SCHIFRIN: In the end, you write this: "This emotional and existential clash will be truly 693 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,000 settled not through adroit verbal gymnastics, but through a more painful and honest reckoning." 694 00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:58,300 What is that reckoning? 695 00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:00,266 ROBERT MALLEY: It's a reckoning with the fact that both sides have this historic -- these 696 00:54:00,266 --> 00:54:03,433 yearnings, this historic attachment to the land. Israeli Jews feel very 697 00:54:03,433 --> 00:54:06,633 differently about -- many of them, about what the land means to them. 698 00:54:06,633 --> 00:54:09,900 Palestinians have this whole conception of history and, again, the right of return for 699 00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:14,900 refugees. So let's not aim for the sky and say we need immediate peace. At a minimum, 700 00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:19,633 they need to coexist, coexist as equals on the land that they both share. 701 00:54:19,633 --> 00:54:22,400 NICK SCHIFRIN: Let's talk about Iran briefly. During the Biden administration, 702 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,233 you were the special envoy for negotiating with Iran, but you were suspended for that job. 703 00:54:26,233 --> 00:54:28,033 Can you tell us why? 704 00:54:28,033 --> 00:54:30,233 ROBERT MALLEY: I was told that it had to -- the investigation had 705 00:54:30,233 --> 00:54:34,233 to do with an alleged mishandling of classified information. I was not told 706 00:54:34,233 --> 00:54:37,666 then what they were looking at. I don't -- still don't know what they were looking at, 707 00:54:37,666 --> 00:54:40,300 and I may well go to my grave without knowing what they were looking at. 708 00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:43,033 What I do know is that, after two years of investigation, 709 00:54:43,033 --> 00:54:46,700 the Department of Justice told my lawyers that the investigation had -- has been 710 00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:50,933 closed. So it's a bit odd. It's a bit Kafkaesque, but it is what it is. 711 00:54:50,933 --> 00:54:54,533 NICK SCHIFRIN: Rob Malley, the book is "Tomorrow Is Yesterday: 712 00:54:54,533 --> 00:54:57,666 Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel/Palestine." 713 00:54:57,666 --> 00:54:58,600 Thanks very much. 714 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,433 ROBERT MALLEY: Thank you. 715 00:55:00,433 --> 00:55:02,933 AMNA NAWAZ: And that is the "News Hour" for tonight. I'm Amna Nawaz. 716 00:55:02,933 --> 00:55:05,133 GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett. 717 00:55:05,133 --> 00:55:08,300 For all of us here at the "PBS News Hour," thanks for spending part of your evening with us.