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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But first
to the world of audio.

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An estimated half-a-billion
people will listen to
podcasts this year.
That's the most in the

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medium's short history. Since
the very term podcast was coined
20 years ago, the format has

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grown into a $25 billion
industry. Spotify
just revealed that its
top-performing podcast from Joe

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Rogan has over 14 million
subscribers. That's
nearly three times the
next most popular show.

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But the industry's
growth has also come
with major growing pains.

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Jeffrey Brown reports for our
arts and culture series, Canvas.

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JEFFREY BROWN: It was a
celebration of an industry, the
annual On Air Fest, a showcase

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for and gathering of the world
of podcasting, held, of course,
in a hip Brooklyn hotel.

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The first session marked the
10-year anniversary of the

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podcast that changed
everything, Sarah Koenig's
and Julie Snyder's "Serial."

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How many people have downloaded
the first season? Do you know?

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WOMAN: Oh, probably
more than 200 million.

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JEFFREY BROWN: In fact, "Serial"
has over 300 million downloads
to date. And it thrust this

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medium into the cultural
mainstream. Today, On Air Fest
is a launchpad for new shows.

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WOMAN: You are about to
get a first listen of
her new limited series.

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JEFFREY BROWN: A gathering place
for industry heavyweights like

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Malcolm Gladwell and even
a platform for celebrities
from other fields,

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like Grammy Award-winning
singer-songwriter Norah Jones.

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Why are you here?

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NORAH JONES, Musician: I
guess because I have a podcast
now. Doesn't everybody?

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JEFFREY BROWN: It can
certainly sound that way,

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with mega-popular talk
shows like Joe Rogan's
provocative interview podcast.

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ELON MUSK, Owner, X: I
mean, it's legal, right?

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JOE ROGAN, Host, "The Joe Rogan
Experience": Totally legal.

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ELON MUSK: OK.

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JEFFREY BROWN: True crime.

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WOMAN: And she walked
into something she never
expected, a trail of blood.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Music,
art, even cooking shows.

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MAN: Cooking is a
philosophy, unless it's
pastry. Then its chemistry.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Everything
for everyone. But if you
lean in and listen closely,

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there's another story still
unfolding, a tale of two worlds.

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Scott Newman, founder of
On Air Fest, brought them
together here in Brooklyn.

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SCOTT NEWMAN, Founder, On Air
Fest: You have an industry
that is an opportunist

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commercial industry
around an art form. So
everyone with commercial

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interests is looking to take
advantage and play the game.

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LAURA MAYER, ABC News:
I started my first
podcast-podcast in 2008,

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when I was still in college.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Today, Laura
Mayer is executive producer
of audio at ABC News,

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and host of her own podcast,
"Shameless Acquisition
Target," a show about her

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own experiences within the
industry as media giants took
notice and became major players.

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LAURA MAYER: In 2019, there
was a shot across the bow.

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JEFFREY BROWN: That's when
streaming giant Spotify

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bought production company
Gimlet Media, an industry
leader, for an enormous sum.

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LAURA MAYER: The amount was for
north of $200 million. And I
can remember being like, oh, no.

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JEFFREY BROWN: I mean,
the world has changed.

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LAURA MAYER: The
world has changed.

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JEFFREY BROWN: And
enormous money has come in.

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LAURA MAYER: Yes. But then
these larger companies
that had been intending to

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scale saw that they weren't
getting their return on
investment. And then you saw

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in the past I'd say a year
and a little bit huge, huge,
huge rounds of layoffs.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The
headlines have been grim.

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KELLI HURLEY, Vice President and
Head of Revenue Partnerships,
SiriusXM: I think there was a

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little bit of over excitement.
And a lot of people wanted to
get into the medium quickly.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Because they
felt they just had to be there.

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KELLI HURLEY: Absolutely.
And I think that it was a
little bit of an arms race.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Kelli Hurley,
V.P. and head of revenue
partnerships at SiriusXM,

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one of the majors who jumped
in, says Sirius remains
serious about podcasting, but:

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KELLI HURLEY: I think
we're being a lot

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more rigorous in terms of the
deals that we're bringing in.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Rigorous
means you're looking to
see what will make money?

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KELLI HURLEY: Absolutely.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Part of that
rigor, laying off hundreds of
employees in the last two years,

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including in the podcasting
department, among them, longtime
audio producer John DeLore.

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Like many who came out of
the tradition of public
radio, DeLore had high hopes

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that the investment by Sirius
and others would bring creative
freedom, time, and resources.

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JOHN DELORE, Co-Founder,
Audio Flux: Ultimately there
was just a misalignment
of their strategy,

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if they had one, but
between really what kind of
audio they wanted to make
in that space. You know,

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this is a company that
their bread and butter
is Howard Stern. And so

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the kind of stuff that we make
is -- requires a lot of time.

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JEFFREY BROWN:
After the layoffs,

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DeLore co-founded a
small independent company
called Audio Flux with
producer Julie Shapiro.

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JULIE SHAPIRO, Co-Founder,
Audio Flux: Audio Flux is a new
home for independent audio and

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new voices and an engine
for community in audio and
big ideas in podcasting.

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JEFFREY BROWN: What
does that mean?

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JULIE SHAPIRO: It means that
the podcasting world has become
very corporate and moneyed,

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and imagination has left
the building. And we're
just trying to say, like,
there is a space to,

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like, think through these
things, feel the pieces,
play with the medium
and try something new.

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JOHN DELORE: And I think
there's an audience for
the kind of experimental,

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craft-driven stuff that we
believe in, that we care
about. It is just that we

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need to bring them new things
that they will want to hear.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Those niche
audiences, Laura Mayer says,
do exist and can be valuable.

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LAURA MAYER: The audience
is more fragmented,

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perhaps, on a per podcast
basis. However, those
audiences are loyal.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Can both
things be true, that the
audience continues to grow,

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but it's still a very
difficult business model?

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LAURA MAYER: The audience
will continue to grow, but
I think the business model

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is being right-sized
right now. You know, the
obsession with scale in terms

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of making the one show
that everyone listens to,
that may not be the case.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Tonya Mosley,
co-host of NPR's "Fresh Air,"
is speaking to one audience in

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particular with her new
podcast, "She Has a Name,"
which she launched here.

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TONYA MOSLEY, Co-Host, "Fresh
Air": This is more than
trying to solve a cold case.

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It's about a family in
search of healing and a city
fighting for its own survival.

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TONYA MOSLEY: I'm talking
specifically to people,
Black and brown people from

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urban centers who
understand this story. And
everyone else can follow
along if they want to,

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and they can be a part of this
too. Well, where are they? Where
can I capture their attention?

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JEFFREY BROWN: You are
reaching out to a new
audience in that sense?

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TONYA MOSLEY: I hope so.
I mean, at this point, we
don't have a template, we
don't have a blueprint.

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So we have to try new things,
and also try things that we know
have worked in mainstream media.

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JEFFREY BROWN: On the business
side, Kelli Hurley of Sirius
also sees new opportunities.

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KELLI HURLEY: We're going to
see content creators expand
beyond audio and become

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true influencers. That can
mean all forms of social media.
That can mean YouTube content,

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video content. That can even
mean a live event, a tour.

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JEFFREY BROWN: On Air
Fest founder Scott Newman
believes the future is
still being written.

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SCOTT NEWMAN: It's going
to be the people that are
here that are going to
decide what the future is,

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through their action,
through their investment,
through their creative work.

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JEFFREY BROWN: As for
musician Norah Jones.

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NORAH JONES: I mean, I'm not
going to quit my day job.
It's more of a labor of love,

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and it's fun, and it's
just, like, joyful.

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JEFFREY BROWN: For the
"PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey
Brown at On Air Fest
in Brooklyn, New York.