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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But first 
to the world of audio.

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An estimated half-a-billion 
people will listen to 
podcasts this year. 
That's the most in the

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medium's short history. Since 
the very term podcast was coined 
20 years ago, the format has

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grown into a $25 billion 
industry. Spotify 
just revealed that its 
top-performing podcast from Joe

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Rogan has over 14 million 
subscribers. That's 
nearly three times the 
next most popular show.

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But the industry's 
growth has also come 
with major growing pains.

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Jeffrey Brown reports for our 
arts and culture series, Canvas.

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JEFFREY BROWN: It was a 
celebration of an industry, the 
annual On Air Fest, a showcase

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for and gathering of the world 
of podcasting, held, of course, 
in a hip Brooklyn hotel.

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The first session marked the 
10-year anniversary of the

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podcast that changed 
everything, Sarah Koenig's 
and Julie Snyder's "Serial."

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How many people have downloaded 
the first season? Do you know?

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WOMAN: Oh, probably 
more than 200 million.

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JEFFREY BROWN: In fact, "Serial" 
has over 300 million downloads 
to date. And it thrust this

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medium into the cultural 
mainstream. Today, On Air Fest 
is a launchpad for new shows.

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WOMAN: You are about to 
get a first listen of 
her new limited series.

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JEFFREY BROWN: A gathering place 
for industry heavyweights like

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Malcolm Gladwell and even 
a platform for celebrities 
from other fields,

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like Grammy Award-winning 
singer-songwriter Norah Jones.

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Why are you here?

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NORAH JONES, Musician: I 
guess because I have a podcast 
now. Doesn't everybody?

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JEFFREY BROWN: It can 
certainly sound that way,

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with mega-popular talk 
shows like Joe Rogan's 
provocative interview podcast.

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ELON MUSK, Owner, X: I 
mean, it's legal, right?

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JOE ROGAN, Host, "The Joe Rogan 
Experience": Totally legal.

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ELON MUSK: OK.

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JEFFREY BROWN: True crime.

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WOMAN: And she walked 
into something she never 
expected, a trail of blood.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Music, 
art, even cooking shows.

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MAN: Cooking is a 
philosophy, unless it's 
pastry. Then its chemistry.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Everything 
for everyone. But if you 
lean in and listen closely,

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there's another story still 
unfolding, a tale of two worlds.

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Scott Newman, founder of 
On Air Fest, brought them 
together here in Brooklyn.

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SCOTT NEWMAN, Founder, On Air 
Fest: You have an industry 
that is an opportunist

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commercial industry 
around an art form. So 
everyone with commercial

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interests is looking to take 
advantage and play the game.

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LAURA MAYER, ABC News: 
I started my first 
podcast-podcast in 2008,

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when I was still in college.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Today, Laura 
Mayer is executive producer 
of audio at ABC News,

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and host of her own podcast, 
"Shameless Acquisition 
Target," a show about her

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own experiences within the 
industry as media giants took 
notice and became major players.

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LAURA MAYER: In 2019, there 
was a shot across the bow.

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JEFFREY BROWN: That's when 
streaming giant Spotify

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bought production company 
Gimlet Media, an industry 
leader, for an enormous sum.

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LAURA MAYER: The amount was for 
north of $200 million. And I 
can remember being like, oh, no.

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JEFFREY BROWN: I mean, 
the world has changed.

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LAURA MAYER: The 
world has changed.

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JEFFREY BROWN: And 
enormous money has come in.

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LAURA MAYER: Yes. But then 
these larger companies 
that had been intending to

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scale saw that they weren't 
getting their return on 
investment. And then you saw

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in the past I'd say a year 
and a little bit huge, huge, 
huge rounds of layoffs.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The 
headlines have been grim.

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KELLI HURLEY, Vice President and 
Head of Revenue Partnerships, 
SiriusXM: I think there was a

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little bit of over excitement. 
And a lot of people wanted to 
get into the medium quickly.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Because they 
felt they just had to be there.

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KELLI HURLEY: Absolutely. 
And I think that it was a 
little bit of an arms race.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Kelli Hurley, 
V.P. and head of revenue 
partnerships at SiriusXM,

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one of the majors who jumped 
in, says Sirius remains 
serious about podcasting, but:

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KELLI HURLEY: I think 
we're being a lot

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more rigorous in terms of the 
deals that we're bringing in.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Rigorous 
means you're looking to 
see what will make money?

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KELLI HURLEY: Absolutely.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Part of that 
rigor, laying off hundreds of 
employees in the last two years,

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including in the podcasting 
department, among them, longtime 
audio producer John DeLore.

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Like many who came out of 
the tradition of public 
radio, DeLore had high hopes

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that the investment by Sirius 
and others would bring creative 
freedom, time, and resources.

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JOHN DELORE, Co-Founder, 
Audio Flux: Ultimately there 
was just a misalignment 
of their strategy,

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if they had one, but 
between really what kind of 
audio they wanted to make 
in that space. You know,

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this is a company that 
their bread and butter 
is Howard Stern. And so

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the kind of stuff that we make 
is -- requires a lot of time.

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JEFFREY BROWN: 
After the layoffs,

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DeLore co-founded a 
small independent company 
called Audio Flux with 
producer Julie Shapiro.

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JULIE SHAPIRO, Co-Founder, 
Audio Flux: Audio Flux is a new 
home for independent audio and

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new voices and an engine 
for community in audio and 
big ideas in podcasting.

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JEFFREY BROWN: What 
does that mean?

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JULIE SHAPIRO: It means that 
the podcasting world has become 
very corporate and moneyed,

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and imagination has left 
the building. And we're 
just trying to say, like, 
there is a space to,

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like, think through these 
things, feel the pieces, 
play with the medium 
and try something new.

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JOHN DELORE: And I think 
there's an audience for 
the kind of experimental,

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craft-driven stuff that we 
believe in, that we care 
about. It is just that we

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need to bring them new things 
that they will want to hear.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Those niche 
audiences, Laura Mayer says, 
do exist and can be valuable.

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LAURA MAYER: The audience 
is more fragmented,

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perhaps, on a per podcast 
basis. However, those 
audiences are loyal.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Can both 
things be true, that the 
audience continues to grow,

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but it's still a very 
difficult business model?

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LAURA MAYER: The audience 
will continue to grow, but 
I think the business model

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is being right-sized 
right now. You know, the 
obsession with scale in terms

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of making the one show 
that everyone listens to, 
that may not be the case.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Tonya Mosley, 
co-host of NPR's "Fresh Air," 
is speaking to one audience in

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particular with her new 
podcast, "She Has a Name," 
which she launched here.

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TONYA MOSLEY, Co-Host, "Fresh 
Air": This is more than 
trying to solve a cold case.

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It's about a family in 
search of healing and a city 
fighting for its own survival.

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TONYA MOSLEY: I'm talking 
specifically to people, 
Black and brown people from

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urban centers who 
understand this story. And 
everyone else can follow 
along if they want to,

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and they can be a part of this 
too. Well, where are they? Where 
can I capture their attention?

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JEFFREY BROWN: You are 
reaching out to a new 
audience in that sense?

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TONYA MOSLEY: I hope so. 
I mean, at this point, we 
don't have a template, we 
don't have a blueprint.

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So we have to try new things, 
and also try things that we know 
have worked in mainstream media.

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JEFFREY BROWN: On the business 
side, Kelli Hurley of Sirius 
also sees new opportunities.

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KELLI HURLEY: We're going to 
see content creators expand 
beyond audio and become

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true influencers. That can 
mean all forms of social media. 
That can mean YouTube content,

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video content. That can even 
mean a live event, a tour.

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JEFFREY BROWN: On Air 
Fest founder Scott Newman 
believes the future is 
still being written.

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SCOTT NEWMAN: It's going 
to be the people that are 
here that are going to 
decide what the future is,

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through their action, 
through their investment, 
through their creative work.

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JEFFREY BROWN: As for 
musician Norah Jones.

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NORAH JONES: I mean, I'm not 
going to quit my day job. 
It's more of a labor of love,

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and it's fun, and it's 
just, like, joyful.

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JEFFREY BROWN: For the 
"PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey 
Brown at On Air Fest 
in Brooklyn, New York.