1 00:00:02,233 --> 00:00:05,066 GEOFF BENNETT: President Trump's executive order barring transgender people from serving openly 2 00:00:05,066 --> 00:00:10,066 in the military is now being weighed in federal court. The judge in the case appeared to express 3 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:15,133 doubt that the ban could be justified as necessary to improve military readiness. 4 00:00:15,133 --> 00:00:17,433 Here's Lisa Desjardins. 5 00:00:17,433 --> 00:00:21,133 LISA DESJARDINS: Among the executive orders that Trump signed last month was one stating 6 00:00:23,166 --> 00:00:26,733 that transgender Americans cannot satisfy the rigorous standards necessary for military 7 00:00:28,733 --> 00:00:32,733 service and that the Pentagon must move to change the policy allowing them to serve. 8 00:00:34,833 --> 00:00:37,433 One of those who could be affected by that joins us now. Commander Emily Shilling is 9 00:00:37,433 --> 00:00:42,033 a decorated Navy pilot with over 60 combat missions and high-risk 10 00:00:42,033 --> 00:00:46,366 work as a test pilot. She's also transgender and the lead plaintiff 11 00:00:46,366 --> 00:00:50,366 in one of the legal challenges against the Trump executive order. 12 00:00:50,366 --> 00:00:52,466 Commander, thank you for joining us. 13 00:00:52,466 --> 00:00:57,433 Secretary Hegseth still has about a week or so to meet the deadline for this new 14 00:00:59,533 --> 00:01:02,666 policy and exactly define what it will be. But as we wait for that, have you seen any 15 00:01:04,633 --> 00:01:07,066 effect from this executive order, either yourself personally or in the military? 16 00:01:07,066 --> 00:01:10,433 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING, U.S. Navy: Yes, Lisa, first, thank you for having us on tonight. These views 17 00:01:10,433 --> 00:01:15,433 are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S. Navy or the Department of Defense. 18 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:21,033 So far, we have thousands of transgender troops currently serving in our armed forces today, 19 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:26,266 and they are deployed across the world, embedded in units today. And these executive orders and 20 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:33,033 the discussion around transgender service has an immediate effect on them, from overzealous 21 00:01:35,433 --> 00:01:38,866 commanders who are taking executive orders as action, to just a detriment to the morale of these 22 00:01:41,866 --> 00:01:46,833 individuals and their ability to focus on the mission that they have signed up to volunteer for. 23 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,000 LISA DESJARDINS: You are the lead plaintiff in this lawsuit. What 24 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,033 are you asking for? What would you like to happen? 25 00:01:52,033 --> 00:01:55,233 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: You know, I just want to keep serving. I have served for nearly 26 00:01:55,233 --> 00:02:00,233 20 years. I'm a combat aviator, test pilot, and I have served with honor and distinction. 27 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:06,500 And all I'm asking is for myself and the thousands of other transgender troops just 28 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,700 like me to be allowed to continue to do what we want to do, which is serve the American public. 29 00:02:13,466 --> 00:02:16,066 LISA DESJARDINS: President Trump has said that this is about the culture 30 00:02:16,066 --> 00:02:20,433 of the military and readiness. Here's what he told Republicans last month. 31 00:02:20,433 --> 00:02:21,966 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: Next, to ensure 32 00:02:21,966 --> 00:02:23,966 that we have the most lethal fighting force in the world, 33 00:02:23,966 --> 00:02:28,866 we will get transgender ideology the hell out of our military. It's going to be gone. 34 00:02:30,333 --> 00:02:32,533 LISA DESJARDINS: Commander, how do you respond to that? 35 00:02:32,533 --> 00:02:35,400 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: You know, the first thing that you learn as an officer and a leader is, 36 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,333 the first rule of leadership is to take care of 37 00:02:37,333 --> 00:02:41,000 your people. That means take care of all of your people. 38 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,000 And when you take care of your people, you have an effective, combat-ready force. We 39 00:02:48,066 --> 00:02:51,700 don't necessarily get to choose who's going to volunteer to serve our nation. We are a 40 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,200 melting pot in America, and our armed forces represent that great diversity of our country. 41 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,066 LISA DESJARDINS: Now, those who support the ban have said that -- they point to 42 00:03:03,066 --> 00:03:07,100 some physical conditions that the military can use to exclude people from service, 43 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:10,300 like maybe severe asthma. That's something you hear a lot. 44 00:03:12,333 --> 00:03:15,866 Do you think that that's at all a legitimate argument here? And what is your response? 45 00:03:15,866 --> 00:03:17,933 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: Yes, Lisa, sure, 46 00:03:17,933 --> 00:03:21,733 there are other medical conditions in health care that preclude people from service. 47 00:03:21,733 --> 00:03:26,733 But 73 percent of us, 73 percent of transgender individuals are senior enlisted in the military. 48 00:03:29,133 --> 00:03:34,000 That means that they have been in for over 12 years. When somebody injures their knee or injures 49 00:03:36,066 --> 00:03:38,933 their back, we send them for health care and they're down for a little bit of time and we get 50 00:03:38,933 --> 00:03:43,800 them the health care they need, and then we return them to combat. We return them to the force. 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,100 It's the same case in this instance. People just need health care, 52 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:52,166 and it's our duty to give them that and return them to the fight. 53 00:03:52,166 --> 00:03:54,266 LISA DESJARDINS: I want to talk about a bigger picture issue here, 54 00:03:54,266 --> 00:03:58,966 which is DEI as well, which sort of overlaps with some of these executive orders. 55 00:03:58,966 --> 00:04:03,933 And conservatives have said, when there's too much focus on identities, that it leads to a less 56 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,533 unified military force. How do you see the role of DEI, which now President Trump has said cannot 57 00:04:12,533 --> 00:04:17,100 be enforced in military and other agencies? But how do you see that role? Did the military ever 58 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:22,100 go too far with that with all the trainings, or was it useful? How do you see that debate? 59 00:04:22,966 --> 00:04:24,866 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: So, first, 60 00:04:24,866 --> 00:04:27,533 let's say what DEI stands for. That's diversity, equity and inclusion. 61 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:32,533 And when you actually say the words you realize what we're trying to do. We're trying to create 62 00:04:34,666 --> 00:04:37,600 an environment where our service members feel like they belong, that they're with their battle 63 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,866 buddies, that they're with somebody they can trust and count on when they're in the foxhole. 64 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,333 When you create an inclusive environment for others, 65 00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:51,300 they bring their whole self. If they have to leave some portion of them at home, 66 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:56,066 you're only getting 80 percent of the individual. When they're allowed to bring all of themselves, 67 00:04:56,066 --> 00:04:59,633 they end up being better service members, and they end up being better leaders. 68 00:05:01,833 --> 00:05:05,200 For myself, when I was able to start showing up to work as my full self, across the board, 69 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:12,066 I got better reviews, I excelled as a leader, and, actually, I ended up promoting to commander 70 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:18,066 with merit reorder to number one as a transgender woman in the U.S. Navy. 71 00:05:20,166 --> 00:05:23,200 LISA DESJARDINS: You are a decorated service member. You operate at a very high level, 72 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,200 but what can you tell us about those thousands of other transgender members of the service? 73 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:33,266 I could see conservatives saying, oh, Commander Shilling is an exception. 74 00:05:33,266 --> 00:05:35,166 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: Yes, so transgender individuals are 75 00:05:35,166 --> 00:05:38,433 no different than any other American. We're going to have those individuals 76 00:05:38,433 --> 00:05:43,033 who excel. We have those that are mediocre. We are no different. 77 00:05:43,033 --> 00:05:48,033 But across the board, the thing that stands out is how resilient these service members 78 00:05:50,133 --> 00:05:53,233 are. Think about how hard it is to come into a service or to come out as transgender in the 79 00:05:55,666 --> 00:06:00,700 current environment. Aren't those the type of people that you want to go into combat for you, 80 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,900 that amount of courage and that amount of bravery to just be who they are and to show up fully? 81 00:06:08,966 --> 00:06:12,533 LISA DESJARDINS: In our last half-minute or so, you are a military leader. You're a combat 82 00:06:12,533 --> 00:06:17,533 veteran. What do you think is at stake for the military right now in the directions it chooses? 83 00:06:18,766 --> 00:06:21,666 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: I think it's reputation. 84 00:06:21,666 --> 00:06:26,666 We have allowed individuals to serve from all different creeds, all different backgrounds. And 85 00:06:28,833 --> 00:06:32,233 every single time that we have tried to exclude a group of individuals, whether it was by race, 86 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,233 religion, gender, we have always been proven wrong in the end. The same arguments are made time and 87 00:06:40,366 --> 00:06:45,100 time again. And we're going to have to learn that those same arguments are false once again. 88 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:48,066 LISA DESJARDINS: Commander Emily Shilling, thank you for joining us. 89 00:06:48,066 --> 00:06:49,666 CMDR. EMILY SHILLING: Thank you, Lisa.