1 00:00:02,266 --> 00:00:04,633 GEOFF BENNETT: Shifting our focus now to Oregon, Judy Woodruff recently traveled across that state 2 00:00:04,633 --> 00:00:09,633 to learn more about the perceived divide between some rural and urban areas in this country. 3 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:14,833 It's her latest installment of America at a Crossroads. 4 00:00:14,833 --> 00:00:18,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: For Ian Williams, it isn't just about the caffeine buzz 5 00:00:18,666 --> 00:00:23,666 here at Deadstock Coffee located in the heart of Old Town Portland. 6 00:00:25,133 --> 00:00:26,666 IAN WILLIAMS, Owner and Founder, Deadstock Coffee: The reason why 7 00:00:26,666 --> 00:00:28,800 this shop exists is for the community to come together. 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,233 JUDY WOODRUFF: The sneaker-theme shop reflects 36-year-old Williams' love for basketball, 9 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:35,866 shoes, and the people who gather here. 10 00:00:35,866 --> 00:00:40,833 IAN WILLIAMS: We are a city that accepts so many things, whether it be culturally or 11 00:00:43,266 --> 00:00:46,666 sexual orientation, whatever it might be. Like, we accept so many things, and it's a beautiful thing. 12 00:00:48,366 --> 00:00:50,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: Williams, sometimes known as the mayor of Portland, 13 00:00:50,633 --> 00:00:55,066 is deeply involved in this community and worried about its future. 14 00:00:55,066 --> 00:01:00,100 IAN WILLIAMS: Portland, the government, the city has allowed people to make the rules. So, 15 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:06,000 then, when we talk about things being dirty, and people -- like, mental health issues and 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,000 things like that, we're not regulating. We're not on top of whatever's going on. 17 00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:16,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: Rachel Coady, a native Portlander who moved back here in 2018, acknowledges its 18 00:01:18,833 --> 00:01:22,333 problems. A consultant by day, she's also worked to help build stronger communities in the city. 19 00:01:24,366 --> 00:01:27,000 RACHEL COADY, Consultant: Portland has enough problems to take care of on its own. I mean, 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,466 obviously, the houselessness for our citizens, 21 00:01:29,466 --> 00:01:33,700 support in getting people who are addicted or having troubles with addiction, 22 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:37,666 the services they need, at least off of the streets, feels really evident. 23 00:01:37,666 --> 00:01:40,566 It's a safety issue now for people. We have a huge 24 00:01:40,566 --> 00:01:44,233 violence issue in Portland that's bigger than it's been in decades. 25 00:01:44,233 --> 00:01:49,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: Portland is Oregon's most populous city and is one of the economic hubs of the state. 26 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,866 Just 80 miles from the Pacific Ocean, it sits at the northern tip of the Willamette Valley, 27 00:01:58,066 --> 00:02:02,033 where the vast majority of Oregon's people live, many in urban areas like Salem and Eugene. 28 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:07,233 They have helped turn the state strongly Democratic. 29 00:02:07,233 --> 00:02:09,033 (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 30 00:02:09,033 --> 00:02:11,066 RONALD REAGAN, Former President of the United States: God bless you. 31 00:02:11,066 --> 00:02:14,300 JUDY WOODRUFF: A Republican presidential candidate hasn't won here in 40 years. 32 00:02:16,433 --> 00:02:19,633 But east of the nearby Cascade mountain Range that divides the state, many have different 33 00:02:21,966 --> 00:02:25,600 worries and far more conservative views. On the High Desert, it's a constant struggle to keep the 34 00:02:28,066 --> 00:02:33,066 cattle healthy, says 58-year-old Lonny Carter, and safe from Mother Nature and from the government. 35 00:02:35,333 --> 00:02:38,700 LONNY CARTER, Rancher: I have had wolves right there in that field by my house. 36 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,866 JUDY WOODRUFF: Carter runs this 19,000-acre ranch with 37 00:02:41,866 --> 00:02:45,233 a small team of family members and ranch hands. 38 00:02:45,233 --> 00:02:47,400 LONNY CARTER: She wouldn't have made it out there by herself. 39 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: Chief among their concerns are the uncertainties. 40 00:02:51,066 --> 00:02:54,966 LONNY CARTER: Every ranch out here has water rights and the state of Oregon 41 00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:59,933 controls that. We don't own the water. If the primary reservoir is low on water, 42 00:03:01,933 --> 00:03:05,133 they say they can come take our water without even nothing, just they will take it. 43 00:03:06,833 --> 00:03:08,800 And they will drain my reservoir and they don't care about my fish. 44 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,433 They don't care about fire protection. They don't care about my irrigation. 45 00:03:12,433 --> 00:03:16,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: This ranch not only sits literally at the geographic center of 46 00:03:16,533 --> 00:03:21,533 Oregon. The people here find themselves at the center of a passionate debate. 47 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,933 Increasingly, Americans in rural and urban areas are growing farther 48 00:03:26,933 --> 00:03:31,933 and farther apart on critical issues here in Oregon and across the country. 49 00:03:33,633 --> 00:03:34,566 SUZANNE METTLER, Cornell University: This is so striking because it did 50 00:03:34,566 --> 00:03:36,766 not exist in the American past. 51 00:03:36,766 --> 00:03:41,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: Professor Suzanne Mettler of Cornell University researches the growing divide 52 00:03:44,033 --> 00:03:47,200 between urban and rural Americans, which she says has grown dramatically among white Americans. 53 00:03:49,266 --> 00:03:54,100 SUZANNE METTLER: It's only beginning of the 1990s that we began to see rural people in 54 00:03:55,833 --> 00:03:58,933 all parts of the country line up in one political party. Prior to that, 55 00:03:58,933 --> 00:04:03,700 both parties had some supporters in rural places in different parts of the country. 56 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:08,700 But since the 1990s, to be a rural person means in so many places that you're a Republican, 57 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,200 and it's led to a wider and wider divide. It's enormous and it's growing. 58 00:04:18,033 --> 00:04:19,833 MATT MCCAW, Spokesman, Greater Idaho Movement: The rural parts of the state 59 00:04:19,833 --> 00:04:21,933 have gotten less political power. People are looking for a solution. 60 00:04:21,933 --> 00:04:25,466 JUDY WOODRUFF: The political divide back in Oregon 61 00:04:25,466 --> 00:04:30,133 has been so great that some are calling for drastic changes. 62 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:35,133 Matt McCaw is the spokesman for the Greater Idaho Movement, which wants to break off the eastern, 63 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,300 more conservative counties in Oregon and join neighboring Idaho. 64 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:44,700 MATT MCCAW: The west side of Oregon is very different than the east side. It's 65 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:48,800 populated. It's green. Its climate's different. The culture's different. 66 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,533 You get out here on the east side, and it's high desert. There's very 67 00:04:52,533 --> 00:04:57,000 little moisture. It's agricultural. It's culturally very conservative. 68 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: The proposed Greater Idaho would encompass all or parts of 17 counties 69 00:05:03,933 --> 00:05:07,333 in Eastern Oregon. So far, 12 have passed ballot initiatives in favor of leaving. 70 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:13,633 The latest in Wallowa County passed by just seven votes out of nearly 3, 500. 71 00:05:15,433 --> 00:05:20,266 The entire area represents roughly 65 percent of Oregon's land mass, 72 00:05:22,366 --> 00:05:25,633 but less than 10 percent of the population and just one of its six congressional districts. 73 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:29,700 MATT MCCAW: You could get those people in Eastern Oregon state government from 74 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:32,600 Idaho that matches their values, is the kind of government they 75 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,233 want. And that longstanding problem of the urban-rural divide goes away. 76 00:05:37,233 --> 00:05:40,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: It would also allow people like him, McCaw says, 77 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:44,666 to be represented by a government more aligned with his views, 78 00:05:44,666 --> 00:05:49,666 favoring more restrictions on abortion rights, lower taxes and fewer limits on guns. 79 00:05:51,766 --> 00:05:53,933 KERRY TYMCHUK, Executive Director, Oregon Historical Society: It's partisanship on steroids. 80 00:05:53,933 --> 00:05:58,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: Kerry Tymchuk, the executive director of the Oregon Historical Society, 81 00:06:01,233 --> 00:06:04,200 dates the widening chasm between the east and west to the diverging economic fortunes in the state. 82 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,066 In 1990, the northern spotted owl was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act, 83 00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:17,233 marking the beginning of the end for Oregon's timber industry and, 84 00:06:17,233 --> 00:06:19,933 with it, jobs for many in the state. 85 00:06:19,933 --> 00:06:24,300 KERRY TYMCHUK: There were union jobs, family wage union jobs. Many of the union members, 86 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:27,300 most were Democrats. And when the environmental movement happened, 87 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:32,300 the spotted owl especially, and they lost all those jobs, it moved them away from the party. 88 00:06:34,466 --> 00:06:38,133 That would be equivalent to what happened in Ohio and Pennsylvania with the manufacturing jobs. 89 00:06:38,133 --> 00:06:41,600 SUZANNE METTLER: This is the time period when people in rural areas start to feel 90 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,500 like the economy is bottoming out once you get into the 2000s, 91 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,800 and they feel that these policies are being hoisted upon them. 92 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: Urban areas, Mettler says, 93 00:06:52,066 --> 00:06:56,600 were able to bounce back more quickly from economic downturns. That fueled resentment 94 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,466 from those in rural areas that account for about 20 percent of the U.S. population. 95 00:07:04,833 --> 00:07:08,000 SUZANNE METTLER: That's when we start to see this politics of grievance and resentment. People in 96 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,000 rural places started to feel that the Democratic Party was run by elites, people who were better 97 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,700 off than them, and who were imposing policies on them, without asking them what they would 98 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,800 like or without listening to them or without being respectful of their communities and their values. 99 00:07:29,833 --> 00:07:32,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: Tymchuk says, in any event, the political and logistical hurdles for 100 00:07:32,933 --> 00:07:37,933 secession are too high. In order for the border to change, both the Idaho and Oregon 101 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,866 legislatures would have to sign off, and it would require an act of the U.S. Congress. 102 00:07:45,966 --> 00:07:49,433 KERRY TYMCHUK: The economics that that would involve, the legal issues would keep -- it 103 00:07:51,766 --> 00:07:55,300 would be a lawyer's dream. There's so much going on there. That is just never going to happen. 104 00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:57,433 LONNY CARTER: So we got 400 cows. 105 00:07:57,433 --> 00:08:02,066 AMNA NAWAZ: But for rancher Lonny Carter, it's not an idea he's willing to let go of. 106 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:07,533 LONNY CARTER: My grandkids, the owners' kid, it's their right to have a good life 107 00:08:09,533 --> 00:08:11,400 without someone coming in and taxing us to death and telling us we can't do this 108 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,700 and we can't do that on our own piece of property. We don't go over there 109 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:19,033 and tell them what they can and can't do. They're destroying their city over there. 110 00:08:19,033 --> 00:08:22,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: Have you tried to have a conversation with some of the folks 111 00:08:22,066 --> 00:08:24,366 who have a different view on these issues? 112 00:08:24,366 --> 00:08:28,933 LONNY CARTER: Oh, yes. They have been pretty interesting. It's been a couple of years. I met 113 00:08:28,933 --> 00:08:33,700 with a couple from Portland. They were like, why would you want to do this? And I said, 114 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:37,666 because we don't win. And they said, well, we don't need ranchers or farmers. 115 00:08:37,666 --> 00:08:41,866 This lady actually thought you can go to your butcher and tell them what you want, 116 00:08:41,866 --> 00:08:46,866 and he pushes a button in a machine and out comes her meat. And that's not a joke. 117 00:08:48,933 --> 00:08:51,300 JUDY WOODRUFF: If the whole country were to say, well, we're going to organize ourselves 118 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:56,000 only by our -- where -- what our politics are, so some of the country would be red. Some of the 119 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:01,133 country would be blue. Do you think it's healthy that we divide up into our respective beliefs? 120 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:05,266 MATT MCCAW: I do. I think it's very healthy. In fact, 121 00:09:05,266 --> 00:09:10,066 I think it's far healthier than having groups of people that have radically different world 122 00:09:12,166 --> 00:09:15,500 views and value sets trying to force their world view and value set on another group of people. 123 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,733 I believe and I think most people in the United States believe that we would be 124 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,700 better if we allow people to have government that makes sense for them and policy that 125 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:35,300 their communities actually want, rather than forcing policy on people they don't want. 126 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: But Mettler says movements like 127 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:42,733 Greater Idaho go against the grain of our democratic system of government. 128 00:09:42,733 --> 00:09:47,400 SUZANNE METTLER: I have heard of some other efforts where bills have been introduced for 129 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,933 parts of the state to separate that's even happened here in New York state. We could 130 00:09:51,933 --> 00:09:56,933 see the whole country getting divided up and into multiple states or seceding to join other states. 131 00:09:59,933 --> 00:10:04,933 And this is no way to -- it's no way to have a democracy. It's no 132 00:10:06,833 --> 00:10:11,833 way to engage in trying to solve large public problems together. 133 00:10:14,233 --> 00:10:17,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: Professor Mettler says divides like this can be 134 00:10:17,033 --> 00:10:20,700 bridged by building coalitions and respect. 135 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:25,700 SUZANNE METTLER: I think Democrats in a state like that need to work harder to 136 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:31,900 listen to rural people and finding out why is it that people don't like the way some policy 137 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,333 was put together and is there a way to do it that would make people more satisfied? 138 00:10:40,633 --> 00:10:44,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: Despite the challenges, coffee shop owner Ian Williams remains 139 00:10:44,566 --> 00:10:49,033 convinced it's possible to learn where others are coming from. 140 00:10:49,033 --> 00:10:54,000 In 2020 he took a road trip across Oregon and as far away as Texas, 141 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,700 documenting it all on social media. He brought his coffee setup in the back of his truck, 142 00:11:01,833 --> 00:11:05,266 sneakers and all, served people coffee and had conversations he otherwise never would have had. 143 00:11:07,433 --> 00:11:11,866 IAN WILLIAMS: How do we meet in the middle and say, like, I understand what you got going on in 144 00:11:11,866 --> 00:11:16,033 your community and your -- with your family, with your people? We don't get on the same 145 00:11:16,033 --> 00:11:21,033 page. We just start with, you're wrong. We don't do a good enough job understanding. 146 00:11:23,133 --> 00:11:25,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: In Crook County in Eastern Oregon, 147 00:11:25,833 --> 00:11:30,833 voters will weigh in May on the next ballot measure to support talks to join Idaho. 148 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,000 For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Judy Woodruff near Post, Oregon.