WEBVTT 00:03.933 --> 00:07.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening. I'm William Brangham. Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away. 00:07.600 --> 00:11.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% On the "News Hour" tonight: The future of TikTok hangs in the balance after 00:11.833 --> 00:16.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% President Trump and Chinese President Xi negotiate a deal to keep the app in the U.S. 00:18.633 --> 00:22.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% The Senate rejects stop gap measures to avoid a looming government shutdown. 00:22.866 --> 00:26.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And a leading historian joins the ongoing debate 00:26.300 --> 00:29.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% over how to interpret the idea of U.S. Constitution. 00:29.333 --> 00:32.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JILL LEPORE, Harvard University: We really have abandoned that very idea of amendment, 00:32.633 --> 00:37.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the idea that it is our Constitution and that we are the authors of it. And 00:37.133 --> 00:42.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by not changing it, we submit to possible abuses. 00:42.600 --> 00:47.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (BREAK) 02:26.833 --> 02:29.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "News Hour." 02:29.166 --> 02:33.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% After a call with Chinese President Xi Jinping today, President Trump said a deal to spin off 02:36.233 --> 02:39.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% an American version of the wildly popular social media app TikTok is -- quote -- "well on its way." 02:41.333 --> 02:44.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A Chinese company developed and owns the app, 02:44.000 --> 02:48.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which raised concerns in the U.S. over national security and data privacy. 02:48.666 --> 02:52.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Nick Schifrin begins our coverage. 02:52.866 --> 02:55.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: From communicative cappuccinos... 02:55.300 --> 02:58.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (SINGING) 02:58.466 --> 03:03.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: ... to presidential pop, TikTok is a social media juggernaut. 03:04.266 --> 03:06.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% MAN: It's a piece of cake. 03:06.433 --> 03:10.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: With nearly two billion global users, including 170 million Americans. And, 03:13.900 --> 03:18.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% thanks to President Trump, it turns out that TikTok has nine lives. 03:18.500 --> 03:20.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The young people of this 03:20.400 --> 03:23.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% country want it badly. The parents of those young people want it badly. 03:23.200 --> 03:27.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: Despite a law requiring TikTok to be banned in the U.S. if it 03:27.500 --> 03:31.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% doesn't sever ties with its Chinese parent company, President Trump now 03:31.333 --> 03:35.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% says he made a deal today with Chinese President Xi Jinping to save TikTok. 03:35.433 --> 03:38.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DONALD TRUMP: We're going to have very good control. 03:38.866 --> 03:41.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have American -- these are American investors. 03:41.400 --> 03:44.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: An official familiar with the deal tells "PBS News Hour" 03:44.300 --> 03:49.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% TikTok U.S. will be controlled by a consortium, including Oracle, Silver Lake, and Andreessen 03:51.533 --> 03:54.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Horowitz. They would control about 80 percent. Chinese shareholders would about 20 percent. 03:56.600 --> 04:00.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There would be a new app. Oracle would keep all American user data inside the 04:00.266 --> 04:05.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% U.S. and be able to monitor and stop suspicious activity. TikTok U.S. would 04:07.166 --> 04:09.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have a majority American board with one member designated by the U.S. government, 04:09.666 --> 04:14.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the app's algorithm would be licensed from Chinese parent company ByteDance. 04:16.766 --> 04:20.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That has led critics concerned that TikTok is built with an internal sleight of hand... 04:20.400 --> 04:21.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MAN: How are you doing that? 04:21.966 --> 04:23.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: ... that the Chinese algorithm could allow 04:23.733 --> 04:28.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Beijing to steal Americans' data and manipulate TikTok's content. 04:28.533 --> 04:32.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This week, the Republican chairman of the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party, 04:32.800 --> 04:37.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Michigan Republican John Moolenaar, wrote - - quote -- "I'm concerned the reported 04:37.333 --> 04:42.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% licensing deal may involve ongoing reliance by the new TikTok on a ByteDance algorithm 04:44.133 --> 04:48.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and application that could allow continued CCP control or influence." 04:50.000 --> 04:52.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But it's not clear if there's even a final deal. Today, Xi Jinping released 04:52.133 --> 04:55.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a statement that said -- quote -- "The Chinese government respects the wishes 04:55.433 --> 05:00.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of the company and would be happy to see productive commercial negotiations." 05:02.533 --> 05:04.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SAMM SACKS, Yale Law School: The details are really going to matter to understand whether 05:04.933 --> 05:08.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this addresses the national security concerns that U.S. policymakers have been so vocal about. 05:10.166 --> 05:11.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: Samm Sacks is a senior fellow at 05:11.733 --> 05:15.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Yale Law School and New America focused on Chinese technology. 05:15.100 --> 05:19.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% SAMM SACKS: So just having the data housed in the U.S. by a U.S. 05:19.033 --> 05:24.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% company or consortium of companies doesn't exactly answer who has access to the data, 05:25.933 --> 05:29.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% under what conditions does it flow out of the U.S., same for the content. There 05:29.500 --> 05:34.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are a lot of questions about who will be overseeing the recommendation algorithm, 05:36.766 --> 05:39.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% right? A license in and of itself doesn't tell us about how certain content will be promoted. 05:41.900 --> 05:44.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: She says the Chinese government's stance on TikTok has 05:44.800 --> 05:49.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% become more flexible because Beijing sees a TikTok deal as a step toward making a 05:49.600 --> 05:54.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% larger deal with the U.S. on computer chips, trade or even about Taiwan. 05:56.600 --> 06:00.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SAMM SACKS: I don't think Beijing cares about TikTok, but I think they realized 06:00.633 --> 06:05.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that they have a real opportunity here because Trump does. And they have bigger fish to fry. 06:07.333 --> 06:12.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% They may be using this as an opening to extract larger concessions. 06:14.133 --> 06:16.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: President Trump also announced today that he would meet Xi Jinping at the 06:16.466 --> 06:21.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Summit at the end of October and travel to China early 06:21.266 --> 06:25.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% next year, while Xi would reciprocate, William, with his own trip to the us. 06:25.900 --> 06:27.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Nick, thank you. 06:27.833 --> 06:31.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have also got our White House correspondent, Liz Landers, here joining us. 06:31.033 --> 06:36.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nick, a question for you, though. There has been this bipartisan consensus that 06:37.933 --> 06:40.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% there really is a national security problem with TikTok. Has there been any 06:40.933 --> 06:44.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% evidence that the Chinese government has manipulated TikTok in some way? 06:44.833 --> 06:48.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: So, ByteDance is a Chinese company and has to respond to any Chinese 06:48.466 --> 06:53.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% government request for data from ByteDance. And the Department of Justice alleged that the 06:53.100 --> 06:58.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% company actually accessed the devices of American journalists via their TikTok apps in the past. 07:00.233 --> 07:04.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% As for the overall concern, William, as our story suggests, there are a few buckets. One 07:04.000 --> 07:09.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is the concern that China could steal the data of Americans. And the deal, 07:11.133 --> 07:14.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% according to the people defending the deal, tell me that that's designed to be mitigated 07:15.933 --> 07:19.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by the fact that the data of Americans is kept inside the us, firewalled off. 07:21.666 --> 07:24.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The second concern is that the app could somehow deliver malicious software. And the critics of 07:24.400 --> 07:28.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the deal who I talked to today say that, yes, that still could happen because this company, 07:28.933 --> 07:33.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this algorithm, will still be Chinese, and that even if you had some kind of 07:33.266 --> 07:38.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% review of the algorithm, it's simply too long and too complicated to know that an 07:40.266 --> 07:43.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% American company like Oracle can actually find anything nefarious inside the code. 07:45.400 --> 07:48.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as an aside, William, all the experts I spoke to today told me that the legislation 07:50.666 --> 07:53.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% requires a complete divestiture from ByteDance, and this deal does not do that. 07:55.433 --> 07:58.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Liz, President Trump's position on TikTok is, 07:58.400 --> 08:01.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the technical term has evolved, you might say. 08:01.400 --> 08:03.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LIZ LANDERS: Yes. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How and why has that happened? 08:03.266 --> 08:05.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LIZ LANDERS: Evolved, and it's been a 180, really. 08:05.500 --> 08:10.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Since he came back into office, he has totally changed his position on this. Back in August of 08:12.366 --> 08:15.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 2020, he signed an executive order that would have effectively banned TikTok, 08:15.600 --> 08:20.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and there was a ton of pushback to this. That was put at bay by some court orders. 08:22.466 --> 08:26.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Congress took up the mantle on this issue in April of last year of 2024. 08:27.666 --> 08:30.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They passed bipartisan legislation that would ban 08:30.533 --> 08:35.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TikTok here in the U.S. unless there was this divestiture. One of the very first 08:35.500 --> 08:40.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% things that President Trump did when he came into office on Inauguration Day on January 08:40.400 --> 08:45.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% 20 was to sign this executive order to postpone the shutdown of TikTok. 08:46.800 --> 08:49.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he has attributed his change, 08:49.433 --> 08:54.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% his 180 in his position to how he saw TikTok help him in the election. He actually just 08:54.400 --> 08:59.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% said yesterday that Charlie Kirk urged him to get on the app. Listen to what he said. 08:59.166 --> 09:04.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP: I like TikTok. It helped get me elected. In fact, Charlie said, sir, you ought to 09:06.466 --> 09:09.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% get on TikTok. You would be great. I said, really? Tell me about TikTok. And we -- as you know, 09:09.733 --> 09:14.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% we did unbelievably well with youth, like at a level that no Republican has ever even dreamt of. 09:16.766 --> 09:21.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LIZ LANDERS: And, William, just in the last few months that he has been in office now, 09:21.100 --> 09:26.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he has delayed this TikTok ban over and over again. He signed the most recent executive 09:28.233 --> 09:33.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% order delaying this just a few days ago. That is now extended and in effect until December 16. 09:34.933 --> 09:36.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Secondly, there's this 09:36.700 --> 09:39.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% consortium that Nick was reporting about that, if the deal goes forward, 09:39.500 --> 09:44.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a consortium of American businesses would take this ownership of part of TikTok. 09:45.733 --> 09:47.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Who are they and how did they get put together? 09:47.600 --> 09:51.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LIZ LANDERS: So this group that could potentially be the buyer to have the 09:51.600 --> 09:56.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% majority American stake includes several people that President Trump is both close friends with 09:58.866 --> 10:01.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and are donors to him and to the Republican Party, in particular, Larry Ellison -- he's 10:01.666 --> 10:06.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one of the co-founders of Oracle -- and also Marc Andreessen, who's a venture capitalist. 10:08.600 --> 10:12.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For example, Marc Andreessen donated $2.5 million to President Trump's super PAC last 10:14.500 --> 10:18.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% year in 2024. So both of these men have close personal ties to President Trump, 10:20.866 --> 10:23.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and they would also stand to gain a lot financially if this deal goes through. 10:23.233 --> 10:25.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And then beyond the national security questions, 10:25.833 --> 10:29.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% there's also real political implications if this deal goes forward. 10:29.966 --> 10:33.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LIZ LANDERS: Yes. Well, there are more than 170 million Americans who use TikTok, 10:33.500 --> 10:38.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that cuts across all kinds of ideologies and demographics, including young people. And 10:38.500 --> 10:42.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% so the president really believes that this helped him win the younger demographic. 10:42.966 --> 10:47.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think that Republicans want to continue to get young people involved in politics as well. 10:50.266 --> 10:54.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So he has now joined TikTok himself. He has more than 15 million followers on TikTok since he 10:56.966 --> 11:01.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% joined. So this would be a big deal if he was able to push through this deal with Xi and with China. 11:03.500 --> 11:06.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Liz Landers, Nick Schifrin, thank you both so much. 11:06.133 --> 11:09.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you. 11:09.500 --> 11:14.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 11:17.433 --> 11:22.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The day's other headlines begin in Atlanta, where HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s 11:24.533 --> 11:27.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% overhauled panel of vaccine advisers declined to recommend COVID-19 shots for the fall. 11:30.333 --> 11:34.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Instead, the advisers recommended that individuals decide for themselves whether to get the vaccine, 11:36.666 --> 11:40.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and they urged the CDC to adopt stronger language around the supposed risks of vaccination. The 11:42.466 --> 11:47.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% panel narrowly voted against recommending a prescription for the COVID vaccine. Previously, 11:49.100 --> 11:52.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the vaccine was routinely recommended and provided to almost anyone who wanted one. 11:54.600 --> 11:58.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Turning overseas, Estonia says three Russian fighter jets violated its airspace today. It 12:00.400 --> 12:04.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% marks the third attempt by Moscow to test NATO's Eastern flank this month alone. The 12:06.400 --> 12:10.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Russian MiG-31 jets breached Estonian airspace near a small island in the Gulf of Finland, 12:12.100 --> 12:16.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% staying there for about 12 minutes. NATO jets from Italy scrambled to respond. 12:18.333 --> 12:22.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Estonia's foreign minister called today's incursion unprecedentedly brazen. This all 12:23.966 --> 12:28.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% comes just one week after NATO planes shot down Russian drones over Poland. 12:30.200 --> 12:33.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The U.N. is set to reimpose tough sanctions on Iran over its nuclear program after the 12:35.400 --> 12:39.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Security Council today opted not to give Iran any relief. 12:39.200 --> 12:41.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SANGJIN KIM, South Korean Deputy Ambassador to United Nations: The draft resolution has 12:41.033 --> 12:45.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not been adopted, having failed to obtain the required number of votes. 12:47.833 --> 12:50.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The vote paved the way for so-called snapback sanctions to take effect 12:50.566 --> 12:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at the end of the month. That's a return to sanctions that were lifted under the 2015 Iran 12:57.933 --> 13:01.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% nuclear deal. Iran called today's action pressure and intimidation, but said it was still open to 13:03.200 --> 13:07.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% diplomacy. Tehran still has eight days to try and reach a deal to delay those sanctions. 13:09.733 --> 13:13.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Just in time for the U.N. General Assembly next week, the Senate confirmed former 13:13.600 --> 13:18.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% National Security Adviser Michael Waltz to be the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. 13:20.700 --> 13:23.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Waltz was quietly dismissed from his previous job in may for mistakenly adding a journalist 13:25.600 --> 13:29.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to a private Signal chat where sensitive military plans were being discussed. 13:31.233 --> 13:34.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Waltz now fills the last vacancy in President Trump's Cabinet after the prior nominee, 13:36.366 --> 13:39.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Representative Elise Stefanik, was withdrawn from consideration so that 13:39.200 --> 13:43.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% she could help preserve a slim Republican majority in the House. 13:45.333 --> 13:49.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% President Trump signed two proclamations today related to foreign visas. One of 13:49.033 --> 13:54.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% them restricts entry under the H-1B visa program for skilled foreign workers unless 13:55.866 --> 14:00.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the applicant pays a $100,000 fee. In the Oval Office this afternoon, 14:02.000 --> 14:05.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the president also signed an executive order allowing expedited visa treatment 14:07.100 --> 14:10.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% via a new Gold Card program that will cost entrants up to $2 million. 14:12.733 --> 14:16.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% A federal judge has for now tossed out President Trump's $15 billion defamation lawsuit against 14:18.900 --> 14:23.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The New York Times. In a scathing ruling, Judge Steven Merryday wrote: "A complaint is not a 14:25.400 --> 14:29.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% public forum for vituperation and invective or a protected platform to rage against an adversary." 14:32.066 --> 14:37.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% He noted the lawsuit didn't even get to the first defamation count against The Times until page 80. 14:38.766 --> 14:42.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% The president's team has been given a month to refile its suit. 14:42.700 --> 14:47.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Separately, the Trump administration has asked the Supreme Court to halt a judge's order that 14:50.066 --> 14:53.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% let transgender and nonbinary people pick their preferred gender on their own passports. It's been 14:55.266 --> 14:59.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the Trump administration's policy to require stating a person's sex at birth on passports. 15:01.200 --> 15:05.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, on Wall Street, stocks ended the week hitting new all-time highs after 15:05.500 --> 15:10.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Federal Reserve moved to cut interest rates. The Dow Jones industrial average 15:10.300 --> 15:15.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reached a new record for the second straight day. So too did the Nasdaq, which climbed 15:17.433 --> 15:21.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 0.7 percent. And the S&P 500 closed out its sixth positive week in less than two months. 15:23.400 --> 15:28.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Still to come on the "News Hour": an FCC commissioner weighs in on the suspension 15:30.233 --> 15:33.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of late-night host Jimmy Kimmel; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart give their analysis on the 15:35.433 --> 15:39.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% week's political headlines; and a Utah festival focuses on mental health in the music industry. 15:57.866 --> 16:02.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% MAN: The yeas are 217, the nays are 212. The bill is passed. 16:02.533 --> 16:07.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That was House Republicans today passing their plan to avoid a government 16:09.633 --> 16:13.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% shutdown with a temporary seven-week funding bill. But, within hours, that was blocked 16:15.233 --> 16:19.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by the Democrats in the Senate. Their own plan for extending funding also fell short. 16:20.066 --> 16:21.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So what does this mean? 16:21.633 --> 16:24.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Congressional correspondent Lisa Desjardins is here again with 16:24.700 --> 16:29.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the latest as we approach the looming September 30 deadline. 16:29.333 --> 16:31.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, Lisa, where do things stand? 16:31.233 --> 16:33.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Well, tonight, the votes today mean that we are 16:33.900 --> 16:38.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in fact on track and more quickly moving toward a government shutdown. 16:38.233 --> 16:41.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As I have said before, this particular shutdown threat, 16:41.200 --> 16:45.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% while we have these now commonly, this one is unique because of the timing. So 16:45.266 --> 16:49.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% let's take a look at the calendar because it's closer than you think. So this is today. Now, 16:49.900 --> 16:54.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% let's look at the deadline that's September 30 for funding government. Here's the situation. 16:57.000 --> 16:59.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Next week, Congress is on recess. In fact, Congress has already left for that recess. 16:59.266 --> 17:03.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So you think maybe they could come back Monday? No. Speaker Johnson and his team 17:03.266 --> 17:08.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% decided late today that they will not be in session in the House the 29th or 30th. So, 17:09.766 --> 17:12.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% William, what this means is, as you and I sit here, really, 17:12.133 --> 17:16.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% unless the Senate passes the House bill passed today, then there will be a government shutdown. 17:18.300 --> 17:20.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, right now, Democrats don't have that appetite. They say this is their time to 17:20.800 --> 17:25.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% stand up to Donald Trump. They say they want more money for health care specifically. 17:27.600 --> 17:31.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It is really a back-and-forth. And here is how each side put it today. 17:33.500 --> 17:35.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We do not want a shutdown. Our position has never changed. 17:35.633 --> 17:39.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We need bipartisan legislation to keep the government open and meet the needs of the 17:39.600 --> 17:44.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% American people, especially on costs, specifically health care costs. But until Republicans break 17:46.733 --> 17:50.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% free from Donald Trump's grip, they're dragging this country straight into another shutdown. 17:52.800 --> 17:54.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They're not being reasonable at all. A short-term 17:54.900 --> 17:57.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% C.R. is not a partisan exercise. We could have loaded this up with partisan provisions, 17:57.833 --> 18:01.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but we're not doing that because we're governing in a responsible manner. I hope 18:01.733 --> 18:03.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate will do the same. 18:03.900 --> 18:06.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: This is a test for everyone, but especially Leader 18:06.533 --> 18:10.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Schumer. He's really never done this before, making demands that could lead to a shutdown. 18:10.933 --> 18:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So the leaders are talking shutdown. Where do rank-and-file members sit? 18:15.500 --> 18:18.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Well, if you talk to Republicans, they believe that Democrats will be blamed. 18:18.800 --> 18:23.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Democrats are less sure. They think that, if they put this message out that Trump needs to be 18:23.600 --> 18:27.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% stood up to, that this is their one time to draw some lines with him, that that will help them. 18:27.833 --> 18:31.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, both parties are more than a year away from an election. But when you talk to Democrats, 18:31.833 --> 18:36.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you really also get this sense, William, that they don't have an off-ramp plan. They don't 18:36.533 --> 18:41.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% know how a shutdown would end. And that really puts us in a potentially precarious situation 18:41.500 --> 18:45.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as we go down into it, potentially as soon as a week, a little bit more than a week from now. 18:45.800 --> 18:47.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So what are the odds? 18:47.833 --> 18:50.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: You know I don't like to speculate about these things. Of course, 18:50.633 --> 18:55.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I always have my own opinion, but I will say they're very high that we will have a shutdown, 18:57.533 --> 19:00.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I would say as high as 80 percent or more. The only possibility out of one 19:00.433 --> 19:05.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is that the Senate returns next week and Chuck Schumer changes his mind. That's not likely. 19:06.166 --> 19:07.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Wow. 19:07.266 --> 19:08.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Lisa Desjardins, thank you so much. 19:08.933 --> 19:09.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: You're welcome. 19:21.033 --> 19:26.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The debate continues over Disney's sudden decision to pull the ABC show Jimmy Kimmel live off the air 19:28.266 --> 19:32.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% indefinitely after a conservative backlash to his comments about Charlie Kirk's murder. 19:33.900 --> 19:35.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The chairman of the FCC, Brendan Carr, 19:35.900 --> 19:40.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% first suggested that ABC affiliates should pull Kimmel's show or face action from his 19:42.700 --> 19:46.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% agency. But Carr rejected accusations that he was punishing free speech. 19:48.833 --> 19:50.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% BRENDAN CARR, Commissioner, Federal Communications Commission: Our goal and our obligation here is 19:50.900 --> 19:52.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to make sure that broadcasters are serving the public interests. And if there's local 19:52.666 --> 19:55.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% TV stations that don't think that running that programming does it, 19:55.433 --> 19:59.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% then they have every right under the law in their contracts to preempt it. 19:59.800 --> 20:01.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We again asked Chairman Carr to 20:01.500 --> 20:04.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% come on the "News Hour," but his office did not respond. 20:04.700 --> 20:08.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But there is also pushback coming from within the FCC itself. 20:08.800 --> 20:13.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Commissioner Anna Gomez has been very critical of Kimmel's suspension. And she joins us now. 20:15.233 --> 20:17.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Commissioner Gomez, thank you so much for being here. 20:17.600 --> 20:21.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What is your principal issue with how this all went down? 20:21.766 --> 20:23.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANNA GOMEZ, Commissioner, Federal Communications Commission: What concerns 20:23.666 --> 20:27.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% me is how this administration is using every lever of power in order to bring 20:29.133 --> 20:31.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% broadcasters to heel, which is contrary to the First Amendment. 20:31.733 --> 20:36.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% These threats are leading to these corporate parents capitulating to this administration's 20:39.766 --> 20:44.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% desire to control both how the media portrays this administration and now apparently how 20:46.833 --> 20:50.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% comedians make jokes about them, no matter whether you find them distasteful or not. 20:52.533 --> 20:54.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Just to remind our audience about the chronology here, 20:54.733 --> 20:59.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Kimmel made his comments on Monday. Chairman Carr made his comments. Then two large owners 21:01.033 --> 21:04.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of ABC stations, Nexstar and Sinclair, both said they would pull Kimmel's show. 21:06.366 --> 21:10.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Both of those companies also have major regulatory matters before 21:12.500 --> 21:15.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the FCC. How much of a role do you think that plays in all of this, 21:17.733 --> 21:21.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% their desire to get the FCC's approval and thus maybe doing what the FCC wants? 21:22.366 --> 21:23.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ANNA GOMEZ: So this is all a part of this 21:23.833 --> 21:26.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% administration's campaign of censorship and control. 21:26.400 --> 21:31.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it has really been very aggressive in going after broadcasters for, like I said, how they 21:33.766 --> 21:36.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% report on this administration. And they want them to change and count out to this administration's 21:38.933 --> 21:43.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ideology. So corporate parents are seeing what it is that this administration wants. 21:45.233 --> 21:50.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And, as you note, these broadcasters own a very large number of local broadcast stations 21:52.133 --> 21:56.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% throughout the country and they are seeing what it is that this administration wants. 21:56.500 --> 22:01.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so this capitulation is basically self-censorship in advance of their 22:03.300 --> 22:07.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% desire to get their transactions granted once they come before the FCC and also, 22:08.733 --> 22:12.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% by the way, to have the FCC lift a lot of the regulations that would 22:14.333 --> 22:18.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% stop them from merging and consolidating our broadcasters even more than they already are. 22:20.466 --> 22:24.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The defenders of Kimmel's suspension say this was not 22:24.300 --> 22:29.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about government censorship, this was about private companies choosing to say, look, 22:31.400 --> 22:35.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we don't like what we heard on our airwaves and we're taking it off, and so that is their right. 22:36.733 --> 22:38.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Doesn't some of the responsibility here fall on these companies, 22:38.866 --> 22:41.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% fall on Disney and its CEO, Bob Iger? 22:41.800 --> 22:46.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANNA GOMEZ: It is absolutely true that private companies have the right to decide 22:48.933 --> 22:52.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what programming they want to air. And the FCC does not have the authority to tell them 22:54.500 --> 22:59.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% whether or not what they are showing is something that they like, as long as it's not unlawful. 23:01.966 --> 23:05.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% However, this pressure campaign is what's leading these companies to capitulate. And what we need is 23:08.233 --> 23:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% for companies to stop capitulating and to show some courage, because every time you see them 23:15.666 --> 23:19.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% self-censor, it is fraying our democracy and the underpinnings of our democracy, which includes the 23:22.233 --> 23:27.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% freedom of speech and the freedom of the press. It is a dangerous precedent for this country. 23:29.333 --> 23:32.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your colleague Chairman Carr has also said that Jimmy Kimmel was in fact 23:34.433 --> 23:37.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% lying about the motives of this shooter and his political affiliations and was 23:37.600 --> 23:42.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% trying to mislead the country. He called it some of the sickest conduct possible. 23:44.900 --> 23:48.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Others, including some on Capitol Hill, have also argued that Kimmel's comments were equivalent 23:50.500 --> 23:54.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to hate speech, as opposed to protected speech. What do you make of that argument? 23:54.900 --> 23:59.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ANNA GOMEZ: Once again, there is no exception to the First Amendment for 24:01.433 --> 24:04.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% broadcasters simply because they are licensed by the FCC. 24:04.466 --> 24:09.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We do not take action against broadcasters because we find the joke distasteful. Our 24:12.300 --> 24:17.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% First Amendment jurisprudence actually has protected throughout decades and centuries 24:18.600 --> 24:22.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% really the most abhorrent speech imaginable. And, 24:22.866 --> 24:27.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% also, satire has been such an important way that we push back against people in power. 24:30.533 --> 24:35.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% When we censor, whether broadcasts of the news or comedians, 24:37.300 --> 24:41.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% what we are doing is losing part of our civic discourse that the public 24:44.000 --> 24:48.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% should be the one determines is what they want to hear, not the government. 24:48.233 --> 24:53.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: President Trump has suggested that the FCC should consider 24:53.033 --> 24:58.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% revoking the licenses of broadcasters that put on material that is critical of him. 25:01.500 --> 25:04.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What is your response to that suggestion? Does he have the 25:04.400 --> 25:07.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% power to do that? Could the FCC in fact do that? 25:07.433 --> 25:12.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANNA GOMEZ: So the FCC does not have the authority, the constitutional right, 25:14.366 --> 25:18.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% or the ability to revoke licenses simply because this administration does not want 25:18.466 --> 25:23.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to be criticized. That is contrary to the First Amendment and it's also contrary to the law. 25:25.333 --> 25:30.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Our Communications Act, which is what governs what the FCC can and cannot do, 25:32.133 --> 25:35.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% prohibits us from censoring broadcasters. And that would be exactly what we were doing 25:38.266 --> 25:41.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% if we were revoking licenses simply because the broadcasters are criticizing this administration. 25:44.533 --> 25:46.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, that is FCC Commissioner Anna Gomez. 25:46.933 --> 25:49.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Commissioner Gomez, thank you so much for being here. 25:49.733 --> 25:54.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% ANNA GOMEZ: Thank you. 25:56.066 --> 26:01.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 26:02.766 --> 26:05.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Last night, we took an in-depth look at what's known as the originalist 26:05.833 --> 26:08.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. 26:08.466 --> 26:12.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Tonight, Geoff Bennett has a conversation with a historian who has a different view 26:12.933 --> 26:17.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of America's most important governing document. It's part of our On Democracy 26:17.666 --> 26:22.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% series about the range of perspectives about how our government should function, 26:22.133 --> 26:26.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what led to this moment, and where the country goes next. 26:26.933 --> 26:31.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Originalism is often countered by the idea that the Constitution is a living, 26:31.266 --> 26:35.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% breathing document meant to be interpreted and changed along with the times. 26:35.666 --> 26:39.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jill Lepore is a historian at Harvard University and author of the new book 26:39.900 --> 26:44.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% "We the People: A History of the U.S. Constitution." And she joins us now. 26:44.233 --> 26:46.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Thanks for being with us. 26:46.033 --> 26:48.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JILL LEPORE, Harvard University: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 26:48.466 --> 26:50.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% GEOFF BENNETT: Many conservatives, as you well know, they argue that the Constitution should be 26:50.900 --> 26:55.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% read exactly as it was written, or at least as the framers understood it in the late 18th century. 26:57.333 --> 27:01.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Why do you see that approach as flawed or even dangerous? 27:01.500 --> 27:06.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JILL LEPORE: Well, their approach is, I think, a good faith attempt to interpret the Constitution. 27:08.800 --> 27:12.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Originalism is a judicial philosophy. I happen to disagree with it as a judicial philosophy, 27:14.166 --> 27:16.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but, more importantly, I disagree that as a matter of history, 27:16.400 --> 27:21.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in the sense that one of the fundamental claims of originalists is that originalism is original. 27:23.400 --> 27:27.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the historical record suggested it very much is not. You could still defend it. You 27:29.133 --> 27:30.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% could still say, this is how I think we should interpret the Constitution, 27:30.533 --> 27:32.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I don't think you can successfully argue the 27:32.533 --> 27:37.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% claim that it is how the Constitution was originally intended to be interpreted. 27:38.666 --> 27:40.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: What do you say to those who argue that 27:40.533 --> 27:45.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% originalism provides stability and protects against judicial activism? 27:47.200 --> 27:49.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JILL LEPORE: Well, I think it's important to historicize originalism. 27:49.900 --> 27:54.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% By that name, it doesn't emerge until 1980. It really dates to 1971, 27:54.866 --> 27:59.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% when Robert Bork, who becomes the solicitor general and then later, 28:02.066 --> 28:04.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of course, is nominated to the Supreme Court by Ronald Reagan, publishes a law review article 28:04.400 --> 28:09.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in which he argues the principal positions of what become known in the 1980s as originalism. 28:11.033 --> 28:14.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So you have to ask yourself as a historian, right, originalism isn't 28:14.700 --> 28:19.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% original. The framers didn't talk about constitutional interpretation in that way. 28:19.100 --> 28:22.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The documents that originalists say you must consult in order 28:22.133 --> 28:27.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% to interpret the Constitution correctly were not widely available until the 20th century. 28:29.366 --> 28:31.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think most historians, including originalists, would suggest that originalists are responding 28:31.900 --> 28:35.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to a very liberal Supreme Court that's very active, the Warren court, 28:35.900 --> 28:40.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% beginning with Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, which rules that segregated schooling is 28:40.866 --> 28:45.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% unconstitutional, through the privacy rulings we associate, Griswold v. Connecticut in '65, 28:48.300 --> 28:52.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% declaring that state laws banning contraception are unconstitutional, through Roe v. Wade in '73, 28:54.433 --> 28:56.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that this active -- there's a lot of other things that the Warren court did. 28:56.466 --> 29:00.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But social and fiscal conservatives were out of power in those years in the sense that 29:02.533 --> 29:06.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they didn't have spots on the Supreme Court. And there were a few different ways to gain power 29:08.166 --> 29:12.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% over the way the Constitution was interpreted. You could amend it. And they tried to do that. 29:12.866 --> 29:17.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You could instead, though, try to take over the federal judiciary, which Reagan made an 29:20.100 --> 29:23.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% unprecedented number of judicial appointments, of course, entirely, within his powers in the 1980s. 29:25.533 --> 29:29.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And he applied a litmus test to those judges that they must subscribe to this 29:30.900 --> 29:34.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% new judicial philosophy that Bork had first described that they were 29:36.400 --> 29:40.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% seeking only to restore the original meaning, understanding and intent of the Constitution. 29:41.800 --> 29:45.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% They were -- it is a judicial revolution. And from that era forward, 29:47.466 --> 29:50.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we have lived in an era where the court has had so much exclusive authority over 29:52.400 --> 29:54.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% constitutional change because we have stopped amending the Constitution. 29:54.700 --> 29:58.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% GEOFF BENNETT: There are people who argue that the Constitution has lasted, 29:58.066 --> 30:01.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% has been enduring in large part because it is hard 30:01.333 --> 30:06.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to change. Do you see its rigidity as a strength or as an existential liability? 30:08.033 --> 30:11.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JILL LEPORE: I certainly don't think it's an existential liability. 30:12.633 --> 30:14.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 30:14.800 --> 30:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JILL LEPORE: I just -- this is not a language that I would use to describe most things, right? 30:17.100 --> 30:19.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Certainly not the Constitution, but sure. 30:19.333 --> 30:21.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JILL LEPORE: I think that -- certainly not the Constitution. 30:24.033 --> 30:27.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think the Constitution with its 27 amendments tells the story of American history. One of 30:27.433 --> 30:31.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the reasons I wrote the book is I think the philosophy of amendment is a very beautiful idea, 30:31.666 --> 30:36.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the idea that we are fallible. This is, of course, the famous speech that Benjamin 30:38.766 --> 30:42.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Franklin gave. I consent to this Constitution, sir, because I don't think it's the best, 30:42.266 --> 30:45.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but I do not think we could do any better, and because I know that we're fallible, 30:45.933 --> 30:48.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and there's got to be something wrong in it, but I also know that we can change it. 30:48.900 --> 30:53.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think what troubles me, though, is that we really have abandoned that very idea of amendment, 30:53.866 --> 30:58.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the idea that it is our Constitution and that we are the authors of it. And by not changing it, 31:00.600 --> 31:05.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% we submit to possible abuses of constitutionalism. And we submit to 31:08.633 --> 31:13.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a political system in which the legitimacy of the Constitution is pretty easily questioned. 31:16.033 --> 31:18.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% If a fundamental mechanism that was built into the Constitution that has never been written out of it 31:20.966 --> 31:25.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is that the people have the capacity to amend it doesn't work, is the Constitution still working? 31:28.600 --> 31:33.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% GEOFF BENNETT: There is this American reverence for the Constitution. People almost hold it up as 31:33.100 --> 31:38.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a sacred text. Does that shape our collective unwillingness to change it, do you think? 31:39.900 --> 31:42.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JILL LEPORE: Yes, but I think we try to naturalize 31:42.733 --> 31:47.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that and assume that it was ever thus. That wasn't really the case. 31:49.833 --> 31:52.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Constitutional worship or kind of bringing the trappings of religious fundamentalism in 31:52.666 --> 31:57.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% particular to the Constitution, people often say, what would the founders do? Well, they 32:00.166 --> 32:03.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% weren't called the founders until the progressive era and the rise of constitutional conservatism 32:03.833 --> 32:08.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% when they were deemed the founding fathers as a way to fight against progressive social reform. 32:10.866 --> 32:14.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So you're absolutely right that it is a feature of how Americans view the Constitution, 32:16.533 --> 32:21.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but it is also a historical artifact of a moment in time. The Constitution's 32:21.433 --> 32:26.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% history does not lie in the archives of the Supreme Court. The Constitution's 32:26.233 --> 32:29.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% history lies in the hearts and minds of the American people, and that has 32:29.733 --> 32:34.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% been a long history of contestation and argument and division and union. 32:37.000 --> 32:41.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it's a very rich tapestry, and it's very hard to see if we focus only on those moments across 32:44.533 --> 32:49.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the chronology, the long 250 years since the first American Constitution in 1776, 32:51.500 --> 32:54.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% first state constitutions, if we focus only on the moments where this particular 32:56.966 --> 33:01.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% political passion that takes the form of worshiping the Constitution as sacred emerges. 33:03.333 --> 33:05.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: Jill Lepore, author of "We the People: A History of the U.S. 33:05.733 --> 33:09.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Constitution." quite enjoyed speaking with you. Thanks for being with us. 33:09.500 --> 33:14.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JILL LEPORE: Thank you. 33:15.666 --> 33:20.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 33:21.833 --> 33:24.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% To some, the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel's 33:24.233 --> 33:28.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% show by the Disney corporation was a much-needed corrective to what they 33:28.133 --> 33:33.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% argue is a never-ending tide of liberal politics on the airwaves. To others, 33:35.233 --> 33:38.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this was the government taking another dangerous step into censorship and authoritarianism. 33:39.966 --> 33:43.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% On that and more, we turn to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. 33:43.733 --> 33:48.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and MSNBC's Jonathan Capehart. 33:49.766 --> 33:51.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Gentlemen, so nice to see you both. 33:51.733 --> 33:53.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, William. 33:53.133 --> 33:55.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I want to talk about Jimmy Kimmel. 33:55.100 --> 33:58.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Before we get to the seriousness of it, several of his late-night comedic 33:58.500 --> 34:03.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% colleagues responded to his suspension this week. Let's listen to a little bit of that. 34:04.966 --> 34:06.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JON STEWART, Host, "The Daily Show": We have another fun, 34:06.233 --> 34:10.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% hilarious administration-compliant show. 34:10.200 --> 34:12.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 34:12.333 --> 34:15.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN COLBERT, Host, "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert": That is blatant censorship. 34:15.200 --> 34:20.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it always starts small. Remember, like in week one of his presidency, Gulf of America. 34:22.366 --> 34:26.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Call it Gulf of America. Sure, it seems harmless. But with an autocrat, you cannot give an inch. 34:27.866 --> 34:29.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% SETH MEYERS, Host, "Late Night With Seth Meyers": We must all stand up 34:29.866 --> 34:33.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% for the principles of free expression. There's a reason free speech is in the 34:33.033 --> 34:37.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% very First Amendment. It stands above all others. You might even say it's... 34:37.233 --> 34:38.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The ultimate. 34:38.633 --> 34:40.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (LAUGHTER) SETH MEYERS: This has been a closer look. 34:40.100 --> 34:42.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (CHEERING) 34:42.233 --> 34:45.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, you guys, we have talked about this all week long about this tide, 34:47.533 --> 34:51.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this current, this -- the chronology of what went down here. I'm just curious, 34:51.666 --> 34:53.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% David, what is your reaction to this? 34:53.633 --> 34:56.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, let's go through the chronology. The shooting happened, 34:56.633 --> 35:01.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and I thought most -- the political establishment and the media establishment reacted well. 35:01.033 --> 35:04.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You had beautiful statements from every former president. 35:04.233 --> 35:06.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Most of the media coverage was responsible, 35:06.466 --> 35:11.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sympathetic. They played who Charlie Kirk was. And it was all going great, reasonably well. 35:13.333 --> 35:16.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But then the conflict entrepreneurs get in the game. And on the right online, 35:16.633 --> 35:18.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you literally had conservative MAGA people saying, 35:18.800 --> 35:23.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this is our Reichstag fire, this is our pretext to crack down on left. The left 35:23.433 --> 35:27.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% has been trying to kill us. This shows they're trying to kill us. We need to get back at them. 35:27.366 --> 35:30.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Civil war. DAVID BROOKS: And my advice to the MAGA folks, 35:30.000 --> 35:34.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% when you're comparing yourselves to the Nazis, that's probably a bad move. 35:35.900 --> 35:38.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And then on the left you had people like Heather Cox Richardson and 35:38.400 --> 35:42.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jimmy Kimmel saying, no, that was a MAGA guy with no evidence at all. And then the other 35:42.700 --> 35:46.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reaction on left was, look at his views on the Second Amendment. He deserved it. 35:46.066 --> 35:51.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so everything began to deteriorate. And then Donald Trump comes in and uses -- or the FCC, 35:53.500 --> 35:57.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at least, and uses the power of the federal government to crack down on Kimmel. And now 35:57.500 --> 36:01.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that takes it to a whole 'nother level. And there it really is censorship. It really is 36:01.900 --> 36:06.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% authoritarianism when you get a government trying to use federal power to police speech. 36:08.333 --> 36:10.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Is it that clear-cut to you as well? 36:10.133 --> 36:13.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. Yes, I mean, how could it not be, 36:13.433 --> 36:18.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and especially when -- and I want to use Brendan Carr, a tweet from February of 2019. 36:21.500 --> 36:25.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He wrote: "Should the government censor speech it doesn't like? Of course not. The 36:25.100 --> 36:30.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FCC does not have a roving mandate to police speech in the name of the public interest." 36:32.200 --> 36:35.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What did we just see? Or take a look at Stephen Miller. He's deputy chief of staff now, 36:39.266 --> 36:44.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a tweet from April of 2022: "If the idea of free speech enrages you, the cornerstone of 36:46.200 --> 36:49.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% democratic self-government, then I regret to inform you that you are a fascist." 36:49.500 --> 36:52.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And I could read other tweets. There's always a tweet for something. 36:52.033 --> 36:54.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Sure. The president's executive order said -- defended the 36:54.866 --> 36:56.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% First Amendment when he first came into office. 36:56.933 --> 36:58.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 36:58.466 --> 37:00.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How did we get, though, from there to here? 37:00.366 --> 37:04.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, you I think we got there, from there to here, 37:04.400 --> 37:09.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% because we have to understand what he meant, I think, by the free press. 37:11.433 --> 37:15.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, really, what it -- to my mind, it is OK for us to do this to them. It was bad, 37:19.833 --> 37:24.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's really bad if liberals or Democrats say nasty things about me, about our movement, about 37:27.600 --> 37:32.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what we're trying to do, and that's censorship. But now that we're in power and they're still 37:34.766 --> 37:39.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% leveling these criticisms and critiques, well, that's really bad and we have to crack down. 37:41.066 --> 37:44.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And what's really problematic in all of this is, it's not just the president. 37:46.600 --> 37:50.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He is surrounded by enablers who are not willing to tell him, you can't do this, 37:52.133 --> 37:55.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or who are true believers and want -- and are more than happy to do his bidding. 37:57.933 --> 38:01.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, Kimmel suffered the consequences for his comments, but he's not the 38:01.900 --> 38:06.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% only one certainly. There's -- USA Today has got a ticker up. I think it's over 100 people 38:06.300 --> 38:11.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% already who have been censured or fired for their comments, some of which those comments 38:13.433 --> 38:17.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were grotesque and horrendous, and others were kind of grounded in fact and not inappropriate. 38:19.666 --> 38:22.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Do you think we have just lost this balance between 38:22.133 --> 38:26.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what is truly dangerous speech and what is protected critique? 38:26.833 --> 38:29.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, we have lost the boundaries. 38:29.033 --> 38:32.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, you're not allowed to say -- famously, shout fire in a crowded theater. You can't 38:32.533 --> 38:37.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% urge people to go kill somebody. Like, if it leads to violence, that should be prohibited speech, 38:37.200 --> 38:41.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and especially if you're a private company and you care about the integrity of your institution. 38:41.733 --> 38:45.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But that boundary has been blurred. Let me try to describe what it feels like for a 38:45.600 --> 38:50.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% lot of the folks on the right. So, in their view, I would say to my Democratic friends, 38:52.366 --> 38:55.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% imagine you woke up and every media organization you saw preached Christian 38:55.900 --> 39:00.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% nationalism. You sent your kids to school, and they were being taught Christian nationalism. 39:02.666 --> 39:05.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% You turned on late-night comedy, and it's all Christian nationalism. For 39:05.433 --> 39:07.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% conservatives, that's how it feels that they... 39:07.966 --> 39:10.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To live in our current world. 39:10.233 --> 39:12.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Look in our current culture, and that one of the things that's happened over the 39:12.933 --> 39:17.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% last 50 years is that, as progressives who have gotten control of various cultural institutions, 39:17.433 --> 39:21.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they have excluded a lot of conservative and working-class voices. And so a lot 39:21.100 --> 39:24.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of people feel completely shut out. And late-night comedy is the perfect example. 39:24.533 --> 39:28.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% You could be right or left. You could watch "Letterman." You could watch Carson. And you could 39:28.300 --> 39:32.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% laugh. But now late-night TV is -- it's about laughter, but it's also about making progressives 39:32.700 --> 39:36.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% feel good about themselves, making them feel smug. And even I can't watch late-night TV anymore. 39:39.033 --> 39:42.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But the difference is, you fight culture -- if you don't like the progressive culture, 39:42.866 --> 39:46.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% create a conservative culture. And to his great credit -- I rarely get to praise 39:46.400 --> 39:51.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Tucker Carlson anymore -- but he went on his show and said, if the Trump administration 39:53.500 --> 39:57.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% tries to damage free speech using this as a pretext, it's time for civil disobedience. 39:59.500 --> 40:02.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so he understands you fight cultural power with cultural -- countercultural power. 40:02.133 --> 40:07.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That's how the game plays. To use federal power is definitely breaching the line. 40:08.666 --> 40:10.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: You used the term authoritarianism before, 40:10.866 --> 40:15.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jonathan. And do you -- I mean, this has been now another one of the very successful efforts 40:17.600 --> 40:21.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that the Trump administration has used with law firms, with universities, with media companies. 40:23.100 --> 40:27.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Where do you see this going? Where do you see this ending? 40:27.233 --> 40:29.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, I don't know. 40:31.400 --> 40:35.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I would like to think that there would be a media company or a band of law firms or a band of 40:38.666 --> 40:43.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% institutions of higher learning who would be willing to push back. It's not enough 40:43.533 --> 40:48.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that Harvard is willing to push back. It's not enough that The New York Times 40:48.033 --> 40:51.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and The Wall Street Journal are willing to push back. 40:51.066 --> 40:56.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I can't think of a media organization, other than The New York Times -- I'm thinking 40:58.133 --> 41:01.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of television -- where they have been in the crosshairs of the president's rhetoric 41:03.633 --> 41:06.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and have said, no, we're not going to do it. We're not going to do what you want. 41:09.066 --> 41:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And, again, I go back to, sometimes, I wonder, is it acquiescence? Is it obeying in advance? 41:16.933 --> 41:21.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Or is it, I'm kind of down with this, I'm fine with this, and I'm going to ride this wave 41:24.366 --> 41:28.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% because, with the president doing what he's doing, maybe we can get some other things that we want? 41:31.100 --> 41:36.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And that that's why this slide, to me, it just - - it picks up speed every week that we sit here. 41:38.633 --> 41:43.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're talking about yet another level deeper into what lots of academicians and others have 41:48.333 --> 41:53.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% said the march to authoritarianism. People say we're sliding into it. I say, no, we're in it. 41:55.400 --> 41:57.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, David, I remember a month or two ago you were sitting right 41:57.633 --> 42:02.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% here arguing that there needs to be this larger civic movement that you were just talking about. 42:04.066 --> 42:06.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Do you think that there are any flames of that happening? Do you see it anywhere? 42:06.400 --> 42:09.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: I think I see little flames, but not the big ones. People 42:09.500 --> 42:13.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are intimidated. People don't understand the nature of the fight there in the middle of. 42:13.500 --> 42:17.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One big mystery I have had is that I spent parts of this weekend in Central 42:17.600 --> 42:22.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and Eastern Tennessee, and I probably had a conversation with 300 or 400 people. And 42:24.400 --> 42:26.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they all -- the way they talked about the Kirk thing was all wonderful. Some 42:26.866 --> 42:31.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% people like Charlie Kirk. Somebody didn't like Charlie Kirk. But they had feeling for sympathy. 42:31.033 --> 42:35.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The conversation I see online has nothing in common with the conversation I had with 42:35.833 --> 42:40.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% all these people in Tennessee. And so my question is, if it's only 1 percent of America that really 42:42.866 --> 42:47.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% thinks violence is necessary and likes what happened to Charlie Kirk, does that matter? 42:49.200 --> 42:53.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% If 99 percent don't, the problem is, as Damon Linker, who teaches at Penn, 42:55.100 --> 42:57.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% said this week on a podcast, 1 percent of America is three million people. 42:57.400 --> 42:59.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. 42:59.766 --> 43:02.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: If three million people believe in violence, they can do an awful lot of damage. And 43:02.066 --> 43:06.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm old enough to remember, when I was 7 years old sitting in my little elementary school, 43:06.700 --> 43:10.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the Weathermen blew themselves up in a New York townhome right by my school. 43:10.533 --> 43:15.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And in those days, the '60s, there were 4,000 bombings on college campus in the '69-'70... 43:16.733 --> 43:18.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. We forget that history. 43:18.900 --> 43:21.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: And it was brutal, let alone Kent State, let alone the riots, let alone all that. 43:21.600 --> 43:24.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And one thing that happened -- I think that was fringes doing most of that, 43:24.800 --> 43:29.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% except for the National Guard at Kent State. That was not the fringe. But a lot of people 43:29.666 --> 43:34.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% pulled back. They looked into the abyss and they pulled back. And what did they do? They elected, 43:36.866 --> 43:40.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as my colleague David French put it, a Baptist Sunday schoolteacher as president in 1976. 43:42.800 --> 43:45.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And then they elected the sunniest human being on the face of the earth as president in 1980. 43:45.200 --> 43:49.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So the electorate said, no, we're not going down this abyss. I don't think we're at that 43:49.833 --> 43:54.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% point where the whole country is pulling back and getting out of the spiral, but I'm hopeful. 43:55.700 --> 43:57.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Hopeful? 43:57.033 --> 43:58.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: I'm perennially hopeful. 43:58.433 --> 43:59.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Thirty seconds, I'm sorry to say. 43:59.833 --> 44:02.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: No, no, I'm perennially hopeful, 44:02.066 --> 44:06.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the but one difference now is that we have a president of the United States who lives online. 44:08.533 --> 44:13.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And if it's 1 percent who are listening to him and the things he puts on social media, 44:13.433 --> 44:18.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the way he speaks about things, that doesn't help us as an electorate pull 44:18.066 --> 44:22.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% back from -- pull back from the abyss, pull back from the brink. 44:22.200 --> 44:25.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, so nice to see you both. Thank you. 44:26.166 --> 44:30.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thank you. 44:41.166 --> 44:45.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The music industry, full of glamorous stars and thrilling performances, 44:45.500 --> 44:50.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% can also be grueling for the musicians themselves, sometimes even with tragic consequences. 44:52.333 --> 44:56.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% A 2024 MusiCares survey revealed that over 8 percent of respondents within 44:58.066 --> 45:00.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that industry had to be serious thoughts of suicide in the past 45:00.733 --> 45:05.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% year. That is notably higher than the 5 percent rate among the general population. 45:07.533 --> 45:10.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Senior arts correspondent Jeffrey Brown reports from Park City, Utah, 45:10.133 --> 45:15.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on a side of the music world that is starting to get more attention. It's for our ongoing 45:17.166 --> 45:20.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% coverage of the intersection of health and arts, which is part of our Canvas series. 45:21.566 --> 45:25.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: The sound of music in the mountains, 45:25.500 --> 45:30.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the band on stage in a gorgeous setting, a happy crowd, in many ways, 45:32.600 --> 45:35.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the quintessential summer music festival. But listen to some of the stories we heard. 45:37.833 --> 45:39.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% L.P. GIOBBI, Electronic Dance Deejay: It feels like extreme highs and extreme 45:39.600 --> 45:42.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% lows. I feel full of gratitude and I feel extremely overwhelmed. 45:42.433 --> 45:45.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANDERS OSBORNE, Musician: You need help. Without people helping me back then, 45:45.666 --> 45:48.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% especially the first year, I would not be here. 45:48.533 --> 45:50.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% HILARY GLEASON, Co-Founder and Executive Director, Backline: The problem that we 45:50.633 --> 45:54.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were seeing was that we were losing music industry folks to addiction and suicide. 45:56.300 --> 45:57.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: People you knew. 45:57.566 --> 46:01.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% HILARY GLEASON: People that I knew, yes. 46:01.100 --> 46:06.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: The Park City Song Summit in Utah had plenty of music over three days headlined this 46:08.133 --> 46:11.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% year by bands such as Goose and Dawes. But here the emphasis was also on mental health 46:17.600 --> 46:22.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and wellness, an array of alcohol-free drinks at night, ivy drips and B12 shots in the afternoon, 46:26.300 --> 46:31.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% yoga, meditation and song baths for a positive start to the morning. 46:32.766 --> 46:34.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% MARCUS KING, Musician: Good friends one after the other. 46:34.366 --> 46:37.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: But things also went deeper, sometimes darker. 46:37.033 --> 46:42.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Grammy nominee Marcus King here was chef and TV host Andrew Zimmern talked openly 46:43.800 --> 46:47.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about the common pressures of their two industries and the toll taken. 46:47.400 --> 46:50.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MARCUS KING: I was really going to check out. That was my plan was, 46:50.933 --> 46:55.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I got an old car, I got a garage. It was like exit stage left. Here we go. 46:58.066 --> 47:01.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: King was able to turn things around and help others through his foundation, 47:01.733 --> 47:05.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% destigmatizing addiction and mental health struggles. 47:05.066 --> 47:06.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% MARCUS KING: Just making that first leap, 47:06.933 --> 47:11.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% asking somebody for help doesn't make you look weak. It's quite the contrary. 47:11.733 --> 47:13.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: These sessions are called labs, 47:13.900 --> 47:18.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one signal, says Song Summit founder Ben Anderson, that this festival is different. 47:22.200 --> 47:24.566 align:left position:10% line:65% size:80% BEN ANDERSON, Founder, Park City Song Summit: Yes. We're getting the chemistry together in there and we're getting people in the same room in an 47:24.566 --> 47:27.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% intimate setting where their personalities and their heart and their spirit can come together, 47:27.733 --> 47:32.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and they can be vulnerable and very transparent about things like mental health, 47:32.466 --> 47:37.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about chemical dependency, about trauma, or maybe about their songwriting process, 47:39.566 --> 47:42.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or why they wrote a particular song, what drives them, what inspires them, what scares them. 47:44.100 --> 47:45.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Things that they don't often get to talk about. 47:45.000 --> 47:47.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% BEN ANDERSON: Right. 47:47.400 --> 47:50.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Counselors like Keith Fairman (ph) made themselves available to support groups no 47:52.933 --> 47:56.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% matter how small, behind the scenes gatherings of audience members in recovery, even amid the 47:59.000 --> 48:03.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% performance stages and for musicians, roadies, and others in the industry, a chance to check in, 48:07.033 --> 48:12.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% talk with peers who share, without stigma, the hard knowledge of addiction and life on the road. 48:19.100 --> 48:22.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ANDERS OSBORNE: I lost everything. I lived in the park, homeless, 48:22.633 --> 48:25.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% penniless, careerless, everything, yes. 48:29.266 --> 48:34.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Now 59 and 17 years sober, Swedish-born New Orleans-based blues rocker 48:36.933 --> 48:41.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Anders Osborne says he survived his drug and alcohol addiction and found a way forward as 48:44.200 --> 48:48.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a touring musician through the help of friends. And he's paid it forward, creating an organization 48:50.533 --> 48:54.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% called Send Me a Friend, a database that allows working musicians wherever they are to ask someone 48:56.600 --> 49:01.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to simply come sit nearby during a performance, just as his friends first did for him. 49:02.833 --> 49:05.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ANDERS OSBORNE: So I played and they kept people away, drug dealers, 49:05.200 --> 49:09.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people that brought me shots or whatever, all this stuff. This is within the first year, 49:09.266 --> 49:14.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% six months into my sobriety. And I remember looking over and going, 49:16.700 --> 49:19.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I'm working. I felt accountable. I'm not partying. My tribe's here. I'm good. Not just feeling safe, 49:23.033 --> 49:28.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but knowing why I'm there. I'm not there for any other reason than to entertain these people. 49:30.300 --> 49:33.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: You found a way to continue as a musician, as a creative person while in recovery. 49:34.700 --> 49:36.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% ANDERS OSBORNE: Yes, it's difficult. 49:36.433 --> 49:38.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Yes, still? 49:38.166 --> 49:41.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ANDERS OSBORNE: Not that I want to use, but, yes, it's -- sometimes, 49:41.433 --> 49:46.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% there are conversations I don't want to have with people that are high or intoxicated. That's part 49:48.566 --> 49:51.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the scene. So you have to find an attitude and be accepting of that as part of my job. 49:55.600 --> 50:00.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For me, I have to meditate prior to the show. I have to be prepared for what's coming. 50:02.066 --> 50:06.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Pressures old and some new. Today's music industry 50:08.300 --> 50:12.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% revolves around new technology and business models, as well as always-on social media. 50:15.900 --> 50:19.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Hilary Gleason heads a nonprofit called Backline. 50:19.333 --> 50:23.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% HILARY GLEASON: The pressure to be responsive to fans, to be on, to be showing them behind the 50:23.900 --> 50:28.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% scenes of your life, I think certainly technology has impacted in that way, 50:28.533 --> 50:33.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but also the rise of streaming platforms and the changing in the revenue models of 50:35.600 --> 50:39.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the music industry have made it so that more and more folks have to go on tour to make a living. 50:39.066 --> 50:41.933 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And touring is incredibly challenging. 50:41.933 --> 50:44.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Backline helps musicians and those working with 50:44.500 --> 50:49.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% them find a variety of services, including on-the-road wellness and therapy support. 50:51.533 --> 50:56.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Gleason is seeing growing awareness of the need for an industry-wide approach. 50:56.100 --> 51:00.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% CHAPPELL ROAN, Musician: Labels, we got you, but do you got us? 51:00.400 --> 51:03.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: One notable moment came at this year's Grammys, 51:03.100 --> 51:08.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% when pop star Chappell Roan accepted her award for best new artist and called on music labels 51:09.766 --> 51:13.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to offer artists health insurance, including mental health services. 51:13.833 --> 51:15.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But she's doing that as a star, right? 51:15.766 --> 51:17.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% HILARY GLEASON: Yes. Yes. JEFFREY BROWN: So if you're starting out, 51:17.833 --> 51:21.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% you can't go to your record label and say, give me health insurance. 51:21.966 --> 51:26.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% HILARY GLEASON: You can't, but you may be approached by several record labels. And it's 51:29.066 --> 51:33.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the defining difference for some artists now in choosing where to sign. Just over the past year 51:35.533 --> 51:38.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or two, we have started to see people make this actually a line item in their touring budgets. 51:40.733 --> 51:43.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: One artist working into the late hours at Song Summit, electronic dance deejay 51:43.866 --> 51:48.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and producer L.P. Giobbi, whose go-all-night, globe-trotting life, one night here in Utah, 51:54.333 --> 51:59.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the next in Spain, would leave anyone gasping for breath and a bit of sanity. 52:00.433 --> 52:02.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% L.P. GIOBBI: My name is L.P. Giobbi. 52:02.900 --> 52:06.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: At Song Summit, she also took the time to offer a master class to young musicians. 52:08.600 --> 52:11.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Like everyone we met here, L.P. Giobbi spoke of those who didn't survive. In her world, 52:15.100 --> 52:20.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it was the phenomenally successful Swedish deejay Avicii, who took his life in 2018 at age 28. 52:22.600 --> 52:26.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% L.P. GIOBBI: I thought a lot more would change after Avicii. 52:28.400 --> 52:32.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% There was a lot of talk about mental health. But I don't know if much did. 52:34.000 --> 52:36.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% HILARY GLEASON: I believe she played some 300 shows last year. 52:36.133 --> 52:40.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: She's had her own struggles, living her dream in a very competitive field, 52:40.133 --> 52:44.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% especially, she says, for women, but always feeling on the edge of 52:44.066 --> 52:48.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% losing it and more. She now works with Hilary Gleason of Backline. 52:48.700 --> 52:52.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% L.P. GIOBBI: I have used the resources to find an amazing therapist and psychiatrist 52:52.266 --> 52:55.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and wellness coach and I find different breath work instructors in every city, 52:55.933 --> 53:00.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and that's been a lifeline for me right now, like just breathing. 53:00.800 --> 53:03.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And if I was going to talk to somebody who's starting out on this journey, 53:03.900 --> 53:06.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% protect your peace at all costs. 53:06.300 --> 53:10.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: Small personal steps and at one small music festival, 53:10.300 --> 53:14.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but, says Song Summit's Ben Anderson, with outsized impact. 53:14.233 --> 53:15.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Still, this is a small gathering. 53:15.633 --> 53:16.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% BEN ANDERSON: Yes. 53:16.766 --> 53:17.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% JEFFREY BROWN: A few thousand people. 53:17.533 --> 53:19.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% BEN ANDERSON: Yes. 53:19.300 --> 53:22.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: Doesn't change all that much in the larger music world. 53:22.200 --> 53:25.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% BEN ANDERSON: Here's what I would say to that. Do you know how many people have come to me and 53:25.200 --> 53:30.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% said either their artist, someone in their camp, or an audience member has gotten the 53:30.000 --> 53:34.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% help that they needed? That never impacts just one person. It's dozens of people. 53:34.533 --> 53:38.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So my mentality is never like, well, it's not big enough. It's, 53:38.533 --> 53:42.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we will have enough impact to where it will be bigger. 53:42.366 --> 53:46.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Jeffrey Brown in Park City, Utah. 54:03.033 --> 54:08.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Remember, there is a lot more online, including a look at a new vaccine that 54:10.300 --> 54:13.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% aims to protect koala bears against chlamydia. You can find that on our Instagram page right now. 54:15.066 --> 54:18.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Be sure to tune into "Washington Week With The Atlantic" later tonight right 54:18.300 --> 54:23.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% here on PBS. The panel examines President Trump's efforts to silence his critics. 54:25.266 --> 54:29.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And watch "PBS News Weekend" tomorrow for a look at a public garden in Michigan that 54:31.133 --> 54:34.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% evolves with the seasons, thanks to meticulous design and an army of volunteer gardeners. 54:36.000 --> 54:38.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That is the "News Hour" for tonight. I'm William Brangham. 54:38.700 --> 54:43.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% On behalf of the entire "News Hour" team, thank you so much for joining us. Have a great weekend.