1 00:00:03,933 --> 00:00:07,600 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening. I'm William Brangham. Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,833 On the "News Hour" tonight: The future of TikTok hangs in the balance after 3 00:00:11,833 --> 00:00:16,833 President Trump and Chinese President Xi negotiate a deal to keep the app in the U.S. 4 00:00:18,633 --> 00:00:22,866 The Senate rejects stop gap measures to avoid a looming government shutdown. 5 00:00:22,866 --> 00:00:26,300 And a leading historian joins the ongoing debate 6 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:29,333 over how to interpret the idea of U.S. Constitution. 7 00:00:29,333 --> 00:00:32,633 JILL LEPORE, Harvard University: We really have abandoned that very idea of amendment, 8 00:00:32,633 --> 00:00:37,133 the idea that it is our Constitution and that we are the authors of it. And 9 00:00:37,133 --> 00:00:42,100 by not changing it, we submit to possible abuses. 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,133 (BREAK) 11 00:02:26,833 --> 00:02:29,166 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "News Hour." 12 00:02:29,166 --> 00:02:33,800 After a call with Chinese President Xi Jinping today, President Trump said a deal to spin off 13 00:02:36,233 --> 00:02:39,800 an American version of the wildly popular social media app TikTok is -- quote -- "well on its way." 14 00:02:41,333 --> 00:02:44,000 A Chinese company developed and owns the app, 15 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,666 which raised concerns in the U.S. over national security and data privacy. 16 00:02:48,666 --> 00:02:52,866 Nick Schifrin begins our coverage. 17 00:02:52,866 --> 00:02:55,300 NICK SCHIFRIN: From communicative cappuccinos... 18 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:58,466 (SINGING) 19 00:02:58,466 --> 00:03:03,433 NICK SCHIFRIN: ... to presidential pop, TikTok is a social media juggernaut. 20 00:03:04,266 --> 00:03:06,433 MAN: It's a piece of cake. 21 00:03:06,433 --> 00:03:10,666 NICK SCHIFRIN: With nearly two billion global users, including 170 million Americans. And, 22 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:18,500 thanks to President Trump, it turns out that TikTok has nine lives. 23 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:20,400 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The young people of this 24 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,200 country want it badly. The parents of those young people want it badly. 25 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,500 NICK SCHIFRIN: Despite a law requiring TikTok to be banned in the U.S. if it 26 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:31,333 doesn't sever ties with its Chinese parent company, President Trump now 27 00:03:31,333 --> 00:03:35,433 says he made a deal today with Chinese President Xi Jinping to save TikTok. 28 00:03:35,433 --> 00:03:38,866 DONALD TRUMP: We're going to have very good control. 29 00:03:38,866 --> 00:03:41,400 We have American -- these are American investors. 30 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,300 NICK SCHIFRIN: An official familiar with the deal tells "PBS News Hour" 31 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:49,300 TikTok U.S. will be controlled by a consortium, including Oracle, Silver Lake, and Andreessen 32 00:03:51,533 --> 00:03:54,600 Horowitz. They would control about 80 percent. Chinese shareholders would about 20 percent. 33 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,266 There would be a new app. Oracle would keep all American user data inside the 34 00:04:00,266 --> 00:04:05,233 U.S. and be able to monitor and stop suspicious activity. TikTok U.S. would 35 00:04:07,166 --> 00:04:09,666 have a majority American board with one member designated by the U.S. government, 36 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:14,666 and the app's algorithm would be licensed from Chinese parent company ByteDance. 37 00:04:16,766 --> 00:04:20,400 That has led critics concerned that TikTok is built with an internal sleight of hand... 38 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,966 MAN: How are you doing that? 39 00:04:21,966 --> 00:04:23,733 NICK SCHIFRIN: ... that the Chinese algorithm could allow 40 00:04:23,733 --> 00:04:28,533 Beijing to steal Americans' data and manipulate TikTok's content. 41 00:04:28,533 --> 00:04:32,800 This week, the Republican chairman of the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party, 42 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,333 Michigan Republican John Moolenaar, wrote - - quote -- "I'm concerned the reported 43 00:04:37,333 --> 00:04:42,333 licensing deal may involve ongoing reliance by the new TikTok on a ByteDance algorithm 44 00:04:44,133 --> 00:04:48,100 and application that could allow continued CCP control or influence." 45 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,133 But it's not clear if there's even a final deal. Today, Xi Jinping released 46 00:04:52,133 --> 00:04:55,433 a statement that said -- quote -- "The Chinese government respects the wishes 47 00:04:55,433 --> 00:05:00,466 of the company and would be happy to see productive commercial negotiations." 48 00:05:02,533 --> 00:05:04,933 SAMM SACKS, Yale Law School: The details are really going to matter to understand whether 49 00:05:04,933 --> 00:05:08,833 this addresses the national security concerns that U.S. policymakers have been so vocal about. 50 00:05:10,166 --> 00:05:11,733 NICK SCHIFRIN: Samm Sacks is a senior fellow at 51 00:05:11,733 --> 00:05:15,100 Yale Law School and New America focused on Chinese technology. 52 00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:19,033 SAMM SACKS: So just having the data housed in the U.S. by a U.S. 53 00:05:19,033 --> 00:05:24,033 company or consortium of companies doesn't exactly answer who has access to the data, 54 00:05:25,933 --> 00:05:29,500 under what conditions does it flow out of the U.S., same for the content. There 55 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:34,500 are a lot of questions about who will be overseeing the recommendation algorithm, 56 00:05:36,766 --> 00:05:39,800 right? A license in and of itself doesn't tell us about how certain content will be promoted. 57 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,800 NICK SCHIFRIN: She says the Chinese government's stance on TikTok has 58 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,600 become more flexible because Beijing sees a TikTok deal as a step toward making a 59 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,600 larger deal with the U.S. on computer chips, trade or even about Taiwan. 60 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,633 SAMM SACKS: I don't think Beijing cares about TikTok, but I think they realized 61 00:06:00,633 --> 00:06:05,633 that they have a real opportunity here because Trump does. And they have bigger fish to fry. 62 00:06:07,333 --> 00:06:12,033 They may be using this as an opening to extract larger concessions. 63 00:06:14,133 --> 00:06:16,466 NICK SCHIFRIN: President Trump also announced today that he would meet Xi Jinping at the 64 00:06:16,466 --> 00:06:21,266 Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Summit at the end of October and travel to China early 65 00:06:21,266 --> 00:06:25,900 next year, while Xi would reciprocate, William, with his own trip to the us. 66 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:27,833 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Nick, thank you. 67 00:06:27,833 --> 00:06:31,033 We have also got our White House correspondent, Liz Landers, here joining us. 68 00:06:31,033 --> 00:06:36,033 Nick, a question for you, though. There has been this bipartisan consensus that 69 00:06:37,933 --> 00:06:40,933 there really is a national security problem with TikTok. Has there been any 70 00:06:40,933 --> 00:06:44,833 evidence that the Chinese government has manipulated TikTok in some way? 71 00:06:44,833 --> 00:06:48,466 NICK SCHIFRIN: So, ByteDance is a Chinese company and has to respond to any Chinese 72 00:06:48,466 --> 00:06:53,100 government request for data from ByteDance. And the Department of Justice alleged that the 73 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:58,100 company actually accessed the devices of American journalists via their TikTok apps in the past. 74 00:07:00,233 --> 00:07:04,000 As for the overall concern, William, as our story suggests, there are a few buckets. One 75 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,000 is the concern that China could steal the data of Americans. And the deal, 76 00:07:11,133 --> 00:07:14,033 according to the people defending the deal, tell me that that's designed to be mitigated 77 00:07:15,933 --> 00:07:19,300 by the fact that the data of Americans is kept inside the us, firewalled off. 78 00:07:21,666 --> 00:07:24,400 The second concern is that the app could somehow deliver malicious software. And the critics of 79 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,933 the deal who I talked to today say that, yes, that still could happen because this company, 80 00:07:28,933 --> 00:07:33,266 this algorithm, will still be Chinese, and that even if you had some kind of 81 00:07:33,266 --> 00:07:38,266 review of the algorithm, it's simply too long and too complicated to know that an 82 00:07:40,266 --> 00:07:43,300 American company like Oracle can actually find anything nefarious inside the code. 83 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,833 And as an aside, William, all the experts I spoke to today told me that the legislation 84 00:07:50,666 --> 00:07:53,933 requires a complete divestiture from ByteDance, and this deal does not do that. 85 00:07:55,433 --> 00:07:58,400 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Liz, President Trump's position on TikTok is, 86 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,400 I think the technical term has evolved, you might say. 87 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,266 LIZ LANDERS: Yes. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How and why has that happened? 88 00:08:03,266 --> 00:08:05,500 LIZ LANDERS: Evolved, and it's been a 180, really. 89 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:10,433 Since he came back into office, he has totally changed his position on this. Back in August of 90 00:08:12,366 --> 00:08:15,600 2020, he signed an executive order that would have effectively banned TikTok, 91 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,600 and there was a ton of pushback to this. That was put at bay by some court orders. 92 00:08:22,466 --> 00:08:26,333 Congress took up the mantle on this issue in April of last year of 2024. 93 00:08:27,666 --> 00:08:30,533 They passed bipartisan legislation that would ban 94 00:08:30,533 --> 00:08:35,500 TikTok here in the U.S. unless there was this divestiture. One of the very first 95 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:40,400 things that President Trump did when he came into office on Inauguration Day on January 96 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,400 20 was to sign this executive order to postpone the shutdown of TikTok. 97 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,433 And he has attributed his change, 98 00:08:49,433 --> 00:08:54,400 his 180 in his position to how he saw TikTok help him in the election. He actually just 99 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,166 said yesterday that Charlie Kirk urged him to get on the app. Listen to what he said. 100 00:08:59,166 --> 00:09:04,166 DONALD TRUMP: I like TikTok. It helped get me elected. In fact, Charlie said, sir, you ought to 101 00:09:06,466 --> 00:09:09,733 get on TikTok. You would be great. I said, really? Tell me about TikTok. And we -- as you know, 102 00:09:09,733 --> 00:09:14,733 we did unbelievably well with youth, like at a level that no Republican has ever even dreamt of. 103 00:09:16,766 --> 00:09:21,100 LIZ LANDERS: And, William, just in the last few months that he has been in office now, 104 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:26,100 he has delayed this TikTok ban over and over again. He signed the most recent executive 105 00:09:28,233 --> 00:09:33,000 order delaying this just a few days ago. That is now extended and in effect until December 16. 106 00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:36,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Secondly, there's this 107 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:39,500 consortium that Nick was reporting about that, if the deal goes forward, 108 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:44,500 a consortium of American businesses would take this ownership of part of TikTok. 109 00:09:45,733 --> 00:09:47,600 Who are they and how did they get put together? 110 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,600 LIZ LANDERS: So this group that could potentially be the buyer to have the 111 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,600 majority American stake includes several people that President Trump is both close friends with 112 00:09:58,866 --> 00:10:01,666 and are donors to him and to the Republican Party, in particular, Larry Ellison -- he's 113 00:10:01,666 --> 00:10:06,666 one of the co-founders of Oracle -- and also Marc Andreessen, who's a venture capitalist. 114 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,666 For example, Marc Andreessen donated $2.5 million to President Trump's super PAC last 115 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,900 year in 2024. So both of these men have close personal ties to President Trump, 116 00:10:20,866 --> 00:10:23,233 and they would also stand to gain a lot financially if this deal goes through. 117 00:10:23,233 --> 00:10:25,833 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And then beyond the national security questions, 118 00:10:25,833 --> 00:10:29,966 there's also real political implications if this deal goes forward. 119 00:10:29,966 --> 00:10:33,500 LIZ LANDERS: Yes. Well, there are more than 170 million Americans who use TikTok, 120 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:38,500 and that cuts across all kinds of ideologies and demographics, including young people. And 121 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:42,966 so the president really believes that this helped him win the younger demographic. 122 00:10:42,966 --> 00:10:47,933 I think that Republicans want to continue to get young people involved in politics as well. 123 00:10:50,266 --> 00:10:54,600 So he has now joined TikTok himself. He has more than 15 million followers on TikTok since he 124 00:10:56,966 --> 00:11:01,800 joined. So this would be a big deal if he was able to push through this deal with Xi and with China. 125 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,133 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Liz Landers, Nick Schifrin, thank you both so much. 126 00:11:06,133 --> 00:11:09,500 NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you. 127 00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:14,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 128 00:11:17,433 --> 00:11:22,433 The day's other headlines begin in Atlanta, where HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s 129 00:11:24,533 --> 00:11:27,866 overhauled panel of vaccine advisers declined to recommend COVID-19 shots for the fall. 130 00:11:30,333 --> 00:11:34,333 Instead, the advisers recommended that individuals decide for themselves whether to get the vaccine, 131 00:11:36,666 --> 00:11:40,333 and they urged the CDC to adopt stronger language around the supposed risks of vaccination. The 132 00:11:42,466 --> 00:11:47,000 panel narrowly voted against recommending a prescription for the COVID vaccine. Previously, 133 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:52,500 the vaccine was routinely recommended and provided to almost anyone who wanted one. 134 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,266 Turning overseas, Estonia says three Russian fighter jets violated its airspace today. It 135 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,266 marks the third attempt by Moscow to test NATO's Eastern flank this month alone. The 136 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,200 Russian MiG-31 jets breached Estonian airspace near a small island in the Gulf of Finland, 137 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:16,433 staying there for about 12 minutes. NATO jets from Italy scrambled to respond. 138 00:12:18,333 --> 00:12:22,033 Estonia's foreign minister called today's incursion unprecedentedly brazen. This all 139 00:12:23,966 --> 00:12:28,100 comes just one week after NATO planes shot down Russian drones over Poland. 140 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,933 The U.N. is set to reimpose tough sanctions on Iran over its nuclear program after the 141 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,200 Security Council today opted not to give Iran any relief. 142 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,033 SANGJIN KIM, South Korean Deputy Ambassador to United Nations: The draft resolution has 143 00:12:41,033 --> 00:12:45,633 not been adopted, having failed to obtain the required number of votes. 144 00:12:47,833 --> 00:12:50,566 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The vote paved the way for so-called snapback sanctions to take effect 145 00:12:50,566 --> 00:12:55,533 at the end of the month. That's a return to sanctions that were lifted under the 2015 Iran 146 00:12:57,933 --> 00:13:01,066 nuclear deal. Iran called today's action pressure and intimidation, but said it was still open to 147 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,700 diplomacy. Tehran still has eight days to try and reach a deal to delay those sanctions. 148 00:13:09,733 --> 00:13:13,600 Just in time for the U.N. General Assembly next week, the Senate confirmed former 149 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,600 National Security Adviser Michael Waltz to be the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. 150 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,800 Waltz was quietly dismissed from his previous job in may for mistakenly adding a journalist 151 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,300 to a private Signal chat where sensitive military plans were being discussed. 152 00:13:31,233 --> 00:13:34,600 Waltz now fills the last vacancy in President Trump's Cabinet after the prior nominee, 153 00:13:36,366 --> 00:13:39,200 Representative Elise Stefanik, was withdrawn from consideration so that 154 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,433 she could help preserve a slim Republican majority in the House. 155 00:13:45,333 --> 00:13:49,033 President Trump signed two proclamations today related to foreign visas. One of 156 00:13:49,033 --> 00:13:54,033 them restricts entry under the H-1B visa program for skilled foreign workers unless 157 00:13:55,866 --> 00:14:00,100 the applicant pays a $100,000 fee. In the Oval Office this afternoon, 158 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,300 the president also signed an executive order allowing expedited visa treatment 159 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:10,500 via a new Gold Card program that will cost entrants up to $2 million. 160 00:14:12,733 --> 00:14:16,666 A federal judge has for now tossed out President Trump's $15 billion defamation lawsuit against 161 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:23,000 The New York Times. In a scathing ruling, Judge Steven Merryday wrote: "A complaint is not a 162 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,133 public forum for vituperation and invective or a protected platform to rage against an adversary." 163 00:14:32,066 --> 00:14:37,066 He noted the lawsuit didn't even get to the first defamation count against The Times until page 80. 164 00:14:38,766 --> 00:14:42,700 The president's team has been given a month to refile its suit. 165 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:47,700 Separately, the Trump administration has asked the Supreme Court to halt a judge's order that 166 00:14:50,066 --> 00:14:53,000 let transgender and nonbinary people pick their preferred gender on their own passports. It's been 167 00:14:55,266 --> 00:14:59,300 the Trump administration's policy to require stating a person's sex at birth on passports. 168 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,500 And, on Wall Street, stocks ended the week hitting new all-time highs after 169 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:10,300 the Federal Reserve moved to cut interest rates. The Dow Jones industrial average 170 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:15,300 reached a new record for the second straight day. So too did the Nasdaq, which climbed 171 00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:21,400 0.7 percent. And the S&P 500 closed out its sixth positive week in less than two months. 172 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,033 Still to come on the "News Hour": an FCC commissioner weighs in on the suspension 173 00:15:30,233 --> 00:15:33,133 of late-night host Jimmy Kimmel; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart give their analysis on the 174 00:15:35,433 --> 00:15:39,000 week's political headlines; and a Utah festival focuses on mental health in the music industry. 175 00:15:57,866 --> 00:16:02,533 MAN: The yeas are 217, the nays are 212. The bill is passed. 176 00:16:02,533 --> 00:16:07,533 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That was House Republicans today passing their plan to avoid a government 177 00:16:09,633 --> 00:16:13,300 shutdown with a temporary seven-week funding bill. But, within hours, that was blocked 178 00:16:15,233 --> 00:16:19,066 by the Democrats in the Senate. Their own plan for extending funding also fell short. 179 00:16:20,066 --> 00:16:21,633 So what does this mean? 180 00:16:21,633 --> 00:16:24,700 Congressional correspondent Lisa Desjardins is here again with 181 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:29,333 the latest as we approach the looming September 30 deadline. 182 00:16:29,333 --> 00:16:31,233 So, Lisa, where do things stand? 183 00:16:31,233 --> 00:16:33,900 LISA DESJARDINS: Well, tonight, the votes today mean that we are 184 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:38,233 in fact on track and more quickly moving toward a government shutdown. 185 00:16:38,233 --> 00:16:41,200 As I have said before, this particular shutdown threat, 186 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,266 while we have these now commonly, this one is unique because of the timing. So 187 00:16:45,266 --> 00:16:49,900 let's take a look at the calendar because it's closer than you think. So this is today. Now, 188 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,900 let's look at the deadline that's September 30 for funding government. Here's the situation. 189 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,266 Next week, Congress is on recess. In fact, Congress has already left for that recess. 190 00:16:59,266 --> 00:17:03,266 So you think maybe they could come back Monday? No. Speaker Johnson and his team 191 00:17:03,266 --> 00:17:08,266 decided late today that they will not be in session in the House the 29th or 30th. So, 192 00:17:09,766 --> 00:17:12,133 William, what this means is, as you and I sit here, really, 193 00:17:12,133 --> 00:17:16,266 unless the Senate passes the House bill passed today, then there will be a government shutdown. 194 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,800 And, right now, Democrats don't have that appetite. They say this is their time to 195 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,800 stand up to Donald Trump. They say they want more money for health care specifically. 196 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,400 It is really a back-and-forth. And here is how each side put it today. 197 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:35,633 SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We do not want a shutdown. Our position has never changed. 198 00:17:35,633 --> 00:17:39,600 We need bipartisan legislation to keep the government open and meet the needs of the 199 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,600 American people, especially on costs, specifically health care costs. But until Republicans break 200 00:17:46,733 --> 00:17:50,900 free from Donald Trump's grip, they're dragging this country straight into another shutdown. 201 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,900 REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They're not being reasonable at all. A short-term 202 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,833 C.R. is not a partisan exercise. We could have loaded this up with partisan provisions, 203 00:17:57,833 --> 00:18:01,733 but we're not doing that because we're governing in a responsible manner. I hope 204 00:18:01,733 --> 00:18:03,900 Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate will do the same. 205 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:06,533 LISA DESJARDINS: This is a test for everyone, but especially Leader 206 00:18:06,533 --> 00:18:10,933 Schumer. He's really never done this before, making demands that could lead to a shutdown. 207 00:18:10,933 --> 00:18:15,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So the leaders are talking shutdown. Where do rank-and-file members sit? 208 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:18,800 LISA DESJARDINS: Well, if you talk to Republicans, they believe that Democrats will be blamed. 209 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,600 Democrats are less sure. They think that, if they put this message out that Trump needs to be 210 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,833 stood up to, that this is their one time to draw some lines with him, that that will help them. 211 00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:31,833 Now, both parties are more than a year away from an election. But when you talk to Democrats, 212 00:18:31,833 --> 00:18:36,533 you really also get this sense, William, that they don't have an off-ramp plan. They don't 213 00:18:36,533 --> 00:18:41,500 know how a shutdown would end. And that really puts us in a potentially precarious situation 214 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:45,800 as we go down into it, potentially as soon as a week, a little bit more than a week from now. 215 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,833 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So what are the odds? 216 00:18:47,833 --> 00:18:50,633 LISA DESJARDINS: You know I don't like to speculate about these things. Of course, 217 00:18:50,633 --> 00:18:55,633 I always have my own opinion, but I will say they're very high that we will have a shutdown, 218 00:18:57,533 --> 00:19:00,433 I would say as high as 80 percent or more. The only possibility out of one 219 00:19:00,433 --> 00:19:05,400 is that the Senate returns next week and Chuck Schumer changes his mind. That's not likely. 220 00:19:06,166 --> 00:19:07,266 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Wow. 221 00:19:07,266 --> 00:19:08,933 Lisa Desjardins, thank you so much. 222 00:19:08,933 --> 00:19:09,700 LISA DESJARDINS: You're welcome. 223 00:19:21,033 --> 00:19:26,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The debate continues over Disney's sudden decision to pull the ABC show Jimmy Kimmel live off the air 224 00:19:28,266 --> 00:19:32,733 indefinitely after a conservative backlash to his comments about Charlie Kirk's murder. 225 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:35,900 The chairman of the FCC, Brendan Carr, 226 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:40,900 first suggested that ABC affiliates should pull Kimmel's show or face action from his 227 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:46,500 agency. But Carr rejected accusations that he was punishing free speech. 228 00:19:48,833 --> 00:19:50,900 BRENDAN CARR, Commissioner, Federal Communications Commission: Our goal and our obligation here is 229 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:52,666 to make sure that broadcasters are serving the public interests. And if there's local 230 00:19:52,666 --> 00:19:55,433 TV stations that don't think that running that programming does it, 231 00:19:55,433 --> 00:19:59,800 then they have every right under the law in their contracts to preempt it. 232 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We again asked Chairman Carr to 233 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:04,700 come on the "News Hour," but his office did not respond. 234 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:08,800 But there is also pushback coming from within the FCC itself. 235 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,800 Commissioner Anna Gomez has been very critical of Kimmel's suspension. And she joins us now. 236 00:20:15,233 --> 00:20:17,600 Commissioner Gomez, thank you so much for being here. 237 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,766 What is your principal issue with how this all went down? 238 00:20:21,766 --> 00:20:23,666 ANNA GOMEZ, Commissioner, Federal Communications Commission: What concerns 239 00:20:23,666 --> 00:20:27,633 me is how this administration is using every lever of power in order to bring 240 00:20:29,133 --> 00:20:31,733 broadcasters to heel, which is contrary to the First Amendment. 241 00:20:31,733 --> 00:20:36,733 These threats are leading to these corporate parents capitulating to this administration's 242 00:20:39,766 --> 00:20:44,733 desire to control both how the media portrays this administration and now apparently how 243 00:20:46,833 --> 00:20:50,666 comedians make jokes about them, no matter whether you find them distasteful or not. 244 00:20:52,533 --> 00:20:54,733 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Just to remind our audience about the chronology here, 245 00:20:54,733 --> 00:20:59,066 Kimmel made his comments on Monday. Chairman Carr made his comments. Then two large owners 246 00:21:01,033 --> 00:21:04,733 of ABC stations, Nexstar and Sinclair, both said they would pull Kimmel's show. 247 00:21:06,366 --> 00:21:10,733 Both of those companies also have major regulatory matters before 248 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:15,800 the FCC. How much of a role do you think that plays in all of this, 249 00:21:17,733 --> 00:21:21,133 their desire to get the FCC's approval and thus maybe doing what the FCC wants? 250 00:21:22,366 --> 00:21:23,833 ANNA GOMEZ: So this is all a part of this 251 00:21:23,833 --> 00:21:26,400 administration's campaign of censorship and control. 252 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,400 And it has really been very aggressive in going after broadcasters for, like I said, how they 253 00:21:33,766 --> 00:21:36,900 report on this administration. And they want them to change and count out to this administration's 254 00:21:38,933 --> 00:21:43,066 ideology. So corporate parents are seeing what it is that this administration wants. 255 00:21:45,233 --> 00:21:50,100 And, as you note, these broadcasters own a very large number of local broadcast stations 256 00:21:52,133 --> 00:21:56,500 throughout the country and they are seeing what it is that this administration wants. 257 00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:01,466 And so this capitulation is basically self-censorship in advance of their 258 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:07,000 desire to get their transactions granted once they come before the FCC and also, 259 00:22:08,733 --> 00:22:12,266 by the way, to have the FCC lift a lot of the regulations that would 260 00:22:14,333 --> 00:22:18,600 stop them from merging and consolidating our broadcasters even more than they already are. 261 00:22:20,466 --> 00:22:24,300 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The defenders of Kimmel's suspension say this was not 262 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:29,300 about government censorship, this was about private companies choosing to say, look, 263 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,066 we don't like what we heard on our airwaves and we're taking it off, and so that is their right. 264 00:22:36,733 --> 00:22:38,866 Doesn't some of the responsibility here fall on these companies, 265 00:22:38,866 --> 00:22:41,800 fall on Disney and its CEO, Bob Iger? 266 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,800 ANNA GOMEZ: It is absolutely true that private companies have the right to decide 267 00:22:48,933 --> 00:22:52,200 what programming they want to air. And the FCC does not have the authority to tell them 268 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:59,466 whether or not what they are showing is something that they like, as long as it's not unlawful. 269 00:23:01,966 --> 00:23:05,466 However, this pressure campaign is what's leading these companies to capitulate. And what we need is 270 00:23:08,233 --> 00:23:13,233 for companies to stop capitulating and to show some courage, because every time you see them 271 00:23:15,666 --> 00:23:19,400 self-censor, it is fraying our democracy and the underpinnings of our democracy, which includes the 272 00:23:22,233 --> 00:23:27,233 freedom of speech and the freedom of the press. It is a dangerous precedent for this country. 273 00:23:29,333 --> 00:23:32,600 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your colleague Chairman Carr has also said that Jimmy Kimmel was in fact 274 00:23:34,433 --> 00:23:37,600 lying about the motives of this shooter and his political affiliations and was 275 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,600 trying to mislead the country. He called it some of the sickest conduct possible. 276 00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:48,500 Others, including some on Capitol Hill, have also argued that Kimmel's comments were equivalent 277 00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:54,900 to hate speech, as opposed to protected speech. What do you make of that argument? 278 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:59,866 ANNA GOMEZ: Once again, there is no exception to the First Amendment for 279 00:24:01,433 --> 00:24:04,466 broadcasters simply because they are licensed by the FCC. 280 00:24:04,466 --> 00:24:09,466 We do not take action against broadcasters because we find the joke distasteful. Our 281 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:17,300 First Amendment jurisprudence actually has protected throughout decades and centuries 282 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,866 really the most abhorrent speech imaginable. And, 283 00:24:22,866 --> 00:24:27,866 also, satire has been such an important way that we push back against people in power. 284 00:24:30,533 --> 00:24:35,533 When we censor, whether broadcasts of the news or comedians, 285 00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:41,133 what we are doing is losing part of our civic discourse that the public 286 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,233 should be the one determines is what they want to hear, not the government. 287 00:24:48,233 --> 00:24:53,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: President Trump has suggested that the FCC should consider 288 00:24:53,033 --> 00:24:58,033 revoking the licenses of broadcasters that put on material that is critical of him. 289 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,400 What is your response to that suggestion? Does he have the 290 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,433 power to do that? Could the FCC in fact do that? 291 00:25:07,433 --> 00:25:12,433 ANNA GOMEZ: So the FCC does not have the authority, the constitutional right, 292 00:25:14,366 --> 00:25:18,466 or the ability to revoke licenses simply because this administration does not want 293 00:25:18,466 --> 00:25:23,466 to be criticized. That is contrary to the First Amendment and it's also contrary to the law. 294 00:25:25,333 --> 00:25:30,033 Our Communications Act, which is what governs what the FCC can and cannot do, 295 00:25:32,133 --> 00:25:35,866 prohibits us from censoring broadcasters. And that would be exactly what we were doing 296 00:25:38,266 --> 00:25:41,633 if we were revoking licenses simply because the broadcasters are criticizing this administration. 297 00:25:44,533 --> 00:25:46,933 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, that is FCC Commissioner Anna Gomez. 298 00:25:46,933 --> 00:25:49,733 Commissioner Gomez, thank you so much for being here. 299 00:25:49,733 --> 00:25:54,733 ANNA GOMEZ: Thank you. 300 00:25:56,066 --> 00:26:01,066 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 301 00:26:02,766 --> 00:26:05,833 Last night, we took an in-depth look at what's known as the originalist 302 00:26:05,833 --> 00:26:08,466 interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. 303 00:26:08,466 --> 00:26:12,933 Tonight, Geoff Bennett has a conversation with a historian who has a different view 304 00:26:12,933 --> 00:26:17,666 of America's most important governing document. It's part of our On Democracy 305 00:26:17,666 --> 00:26:22,133 series about the range of perspectives about how our government should function, 306 00:26:22,133 --> 00:26:26,933 what led to this moment, and where the country goes next. 307 00:26:26,933 --> 00:26:31,266 GEOFF BENNETT: Originalism is often countered by the idea that the Constitution is a living, 308 00:26:31,266 --> 00:26:35,666 breathing document meant to be interpreted and changed along with the times. 309 00:26:35,666 --> 00:26:39,900 Jill Lepore is a historian at Harvard University and author of the new book 310 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:44,233 "We the People: A History of the U.S. Constitution." And she joins us now. 311 00:26:44,233 --> 00:26:46,033 Thanks for being with us. 312 00:26:46,033 --> 00:26:48,466 JILL LEPORE, Harvard University: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 313 00:26:48,466 --> 00:26:50,900 GEOFF BENNETT: Many conservatives, as you well know, they argue that the Constitution should be 314 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:55,866 read exactly as it was written, or at least as the framers understood it in the late 18th century. 315 00:26:57,333 --> 00:27:01,500 Why do you see that approach as flawed or even dangerous? 316 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:06,500 JILL LEPORE: Well, their approach is, I think, a good faith attempt to interpret the Constitution. 317 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,500 Originalism is a judicial philosophy. I happen to disagree with it as a judicial philosophy, 318 00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:16,400 but, more importantly, I disagree that as a matter of history, 319 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,300 in the sense that one of the fundamental claims of originalists is that originalism is original. 320 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,300 And the historical record suggested it very much is not. You could still defend it. You 321 00:27:29,133 --> 00:27:30,533 could still say, this is how I think we should interpret the Constitution, 322 00:27:30,533 --> 00:27:32,533 but I don't think you can successfully argue the 323 00:27:32,533 --> 00:27:37,233 claim that it is how the Constitution was originally intended to be interpreted. 324 00:27:38,666 --> 00:27:40,533 GEOFF BENNETT: What do you say to those who argue that 325 00:27:40,533 --> 00:27:45,533 originalism provides stability and protects against judicial activism? 326 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,900 JILL LEPORE: Well, I think it's important to historicize originalism. 327 00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:54,866 By that name, it doesn't emerge until 1980. It really dates to 1971, 328 00:27:54,866 --> 00:27:59,866 when Robert Bork, who becomes the solicitor general and then later, 329 00:28:02,066 --> 00:28:04,400 of course, is nominated to the Supreme Court by Ronald Reagan, publishes a law review article 330 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,400 in which he argues the principal positions of what become known in the 1980s as originalism. 331 00:28:11,033 --> 00:28:14,700 So you have to ask yourself as a historian, right, originalism isn't 332 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:19,100 original. The framers didn't talk about constitutional interpretation in that way. 333 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:22,133 The documents that originalists say you must consult in order 334 00:28:22,133 --> 00:28:27,133 to interpret the Constitution correctly were not widely available until the 20th century. 335 00:28:29,366 --> 00:28:31,900 I think most historians, including originalists, would suggest that originalists are responding 336 00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:35,900 to a very liberal Supreme Court that's very active, the Warren court, 337 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:40,866 beginning with Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, which rules that segregated schooling is 338 00:28:40,866 --> 00:28:45,866 unconstitutional, through the privacy rulings we associate, Griswold v. Connecticut in '65, 339 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:52,500 declaring that state laws banning contraception are unconstitutional, through Roe v. Wade in '73, 340 00:28:54,433 --> 00:28:56,466 that this active -- there's a lot of other things that the Warren court did. 341 00:28:56,466 --> 00:29:00,433 But social and fiscal conservatives were out of power in those years in the sense that 342 00:29:02,533 --> 00:29:06,033 they didn't have spots on the Supreme Court. And there were a few different ways to gain power 343 00:29:08,166 --> 00:29:12,866 over the way the Constitution was interpreted. You could amend it. And they tried to do that. 344 00:29:12,866 --> 00:29:17,866 You could instead, though, try to take over the federal judiciary, which Reagan made an 345 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:23,633 unprecedented number of judicial appointments, of course, entirely, within his powers in the 1980s. 346 00:29:25,533 --> 00:29:29,233 And he applied a litmus test to those judges that they must subscribe to this 347 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:34,333 new judicial philosophy that Bork had first described that they were 348 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,100 seeking only to restore the original meaning, understanding and intent of the Constitution. 349 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,533 They were -- it is a judicial revolution. And from that era forward, 350 00:29:47,466 --> 00:29:50,600 we have lived in an era where the court has had so much exclusive authority over 351 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,700 constitutional change because we have stopped amending the Constitution. 352 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:58,066 GEOFF BENNETT: There are people who argue that the Constitution has lasted, 353 00:29:58,066 --> 00:30:01,333 has been enduring in large part because it is hard 354 00:30:01,333 --> 00:30:06,333 to change. Do you see its rigidity as a strength or as an existential liability? 355 00:30:08,033 --> 00:30:11,666 JILL LEPORE: I certainly don't think it's an existential liability. 356 00:30:12,633 --> 00:30:14,800 (LAUGHTER) 357 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,100 JILL LEPORE: I just -- this is not a language that I would use to describe most things, right? 358 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:19,333 GEOFF BENNETT: Certainly not the Constitution, but sure. 359 00:30:19,333 --> 00:30:21,900 JILL LEPORE: I think that -- certainly not the Constitution. 360 00:30:24,033 --> 00:30:27,433 I think the Constitution with its 27 amendments tells the story of American history. One of 361 00:30:27,433 --> 00:30:31,666 the reasons I wrote the book is I think the philosophy of amendment is a very beautiful idea, 362 00:30:31,666 --> 00:30:36,666 the idea that we are fallible. This is, of course, the famous speech that Benjamin 363 00:30:38,766 --> 00:30:42,266 Franklin gave. I consent to this Constitution, sir, because I don't think it's the best, 364 00:30:42,266 --> 00:30:45,933 but I do not think we could do any better, and because I know that we're fallible, 365 00:30:45,933 --> 00:30:48,900 and there's got to be something wrong in it, but I also know that we can change it. 366 00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:53,866 I think what troubles me, though, is that we really have abandoned that very idea of amendment, 367 00:30:53,866 --> 00:30:58,833 the idea that it is our Constitution and that we are the authors of it. And by not changing it, 368 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,133 we submit to possible abuses of constitutionalism. And we submit to 369 00:31:08,633 --> 00:31:13,633 a political system in which the legitimacy of the Constitution is pretty easily questioned. 370 00:31:16,033 --> 00:31:18,666 If a fundamental mechanism that was built into the Constitution that has never been written out of it 371 00:31:20,966 --> 00:31:25,300 is that the people have the capacity to amend it doesn't work, is the Constitution still working? 372 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,100 GEOFF BENNETT: There is this American reverence for the Constitution. People almost hold it up as 373 00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:38,100 a sacred text. Does that shape our collective unwillingness to change it, do you think? 374 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:42,733 JILL LEPORE: Yes, but I think we try to naturalize 375 00:31:42,733 --> 00:31:47,700 that and assume that it was ever thus. That wasn't really the case. 376 00:31:49,833 --> 00:31:52,666 Constitutional worship or kind of bringing the trappings of religious fundamentalism in 377 00:31:52,666 --> 00:31:57,633 particular to the Constitution, people often say, what would the founders do? Well, they 378 00:32:00,166 --> 00:32:03,833 weren't called the founders until the progressive era and the rise of constitutional conservatism 379 00:32:03,833 --> 00:32:08,833 when they were deemed the founding fathers as a way to fight against progressive social reform. 380 00:32:10,866 --> 00:32:14,733 So you're absolutely right that it is a feature of how Americans view the Constitution, 381 00:32:16,533 --> 00:32:21,433 but it is also a historical artifact of a moment in time. The Constitution's 382 00:32:21,433 --> 00:32:26,233 history does not lie in the archives of the Supreme Court. The Constitution's 383 00:32:26,233 --> 00:32:29,733 history lies in the hearts and minds of the American people, and that has 384 00:32:29,733 --> 00:32:34,733 been a long history of contestation and argument and division and union. 385 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,066 And it's a very rich tapestry, and it's very hard to see if we focus only on those moments across 386 00:32:44,533 --> 00:32:49,533 the chronology, the long 250 years since the first American Constitution in 1776, 387 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,900 first state constitutions, if we focus only on the moments where this particular 388 00:32:56,966 --> 00:33:01,400 political passion that takes the form of worshiping the Constitution as sacred emerges. 389 00:33:03,333 --> 00:33:05,733 GEOFF BENNETT: Jill Lepore, author of "We the People: A History of the U.S. 390 00:33:05,733 --> 00:33:09,500 Constitution." quite enjoyed speaking with you. Thanks for being with us. 391 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:14,500 JILL LEPORE: Thank you. 392 00:33:15,666 --> 00:33:20,666 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: 393 00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:24,233 To some, the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel's 394 00:33:24,233 --> 00:33:28,133 show by the Disney corporation was a much-needed corrective to what they 395 00:33:28,133 --> 00:33:33,133 argue is a never-ending tide of liberal politics on the airwaves. To others, 396 00:33:35,233 --> 00:33:38,500 this was the government taking another dangerous step into censorship and authoritarianism. 397 00:33:39,966 --> 00:33:43,733 On that and more, we turn to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. 398 00:33:43,733 --> 00:33:48,733 That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and MSNBC's Jonathan Capehart. 399 00:33:49,766 --> 00:33:51,733 Gentlemen, so nice to see you both. 400 00:33:51,733 --> 00:33:53,133 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, William. 401 00:33:53,133 --> 00:33:55,100 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I want to talk about Jimmy Kimmel. 402 00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:58,500 Before we get to the seriousness of it, several of his late-night comedic 403 00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:03,466 colleagues responded to his suspension this week. Let's listen to a little bit of that. 404 00:34:04,966 --> 00:34:06,233 JON STEWART, Host, "The Daily Show": We have another fun, 405 00:34:06,233 --> 00:34:10,200 hilarious administration-compliant show. 406 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,333 (LAUGHTER) 407 00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:15,200 STEPHEN COLBERT, Host, "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert": That is blatant censorship. 408 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,200 And it always starts small. Remember, like in week one of his presidency, Gulf of America. 409 00:34:22,366 --> 00:34:26,200 Call it Gulf of America. Sure, it seems harmless. But with an autocrat, you cannot give an inch. 410 00:34:27,866 --> 00:34:29,866 SETH MEYERS, Host, "Late Night With Seth Meyers": We must all stand up 411 00:34:29,866 --> 00:34:33,033 for the principles of free expression. There's a reason free speech is in the 412 00:34:33,033 --> 00:34:37,233 very First Amendment. It stands above all others. You might even say it's... 413 00:34:37,233 --> 00:34:38,633 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The ultimate. 414 00:34:38,633 --> 00:34:40,100 (LAUGHTER) SETH MEYERS: This has been a closer look. 415 00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:42,233 (CHEERING) 416 00:34:42,233 --> 00:34:45,633 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, you guys, we have talked about this all week long about this tide, 417 00:34:47,533 --> 00:34:51,666 this current, this -- the chronology of what went down here. I'm just curious, 418 00:34:51,666 --> 00:34:53,633 David, what is your reaction to this? 419 00:34:53,633 --> 00:34:56,633 DAVID BROOKS: Well, let's go through the chronology. The shooting happened, 420 00:34:56,633 --> 00:35:01,033 and I thought most -- the political establishment and the media establishment reacted well. 421 00:35:01,033 --> 00:35:04,233 You had beautiful statements from every former president. 422 00:35:04,233 --> 00:35:06,466 Most of the media coverage was responsible, 423 00:35:06,466 --> 00:35:11,466 sympathetic. They played who Charlie Kirk was. And it was all going great, reasonably well. 424 00:35:13,333 --> 00:35:16,633 But then the conflict entrepreneurs get in the game. And on the right online, 425 00:35:16,633 --> 00:35:18,800 you literally had conservative MAGA people saying, 426 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,433 this is our Reichstag fire, this is our pretext to crack down on left. The left 427 00:35:23,433 --> 00:35:27,366 has been trying to kill us. This shows they're trying to kill us. We need to get back at them. 428 00:35:27,366 --> 00:35:30,000 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Civil war. DAVID BROOKS: And my advice to the MAGA folks, 429 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,266 when you're comparing yourselves to the Nazis, that's probably a bad move. 430 00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:38,400 And then on the left you had people like Heather Cox Richardson and 431 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,700 Jimmy Kimmel saying, no, that was a MAGA guy with no evidence at all. And then the other 432 00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:46,066 reaction on left was, look at his views on the Second Amendment. He deserved it. 433 00:35:46,066 --> 00:35:51,066 And so everything began to deteriorate. And then Donald Trump comes in and uses -- or the FCC, 434 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500 at least, and uses the power of the federal government to crack down on Kimmel. And now 435 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:01,900 that takes it to a whole 'nother level. And there it really is censorship. It really is 436 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:06,900 authoritarianism when you get a government trying to use federal power to police speech. 437 00:36:08,333 --> 00:36:10,133 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Is it that clear-cut to you as well? 438 00:36:10,133 --> 00:36:13,433 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. Yes, I mean, how could it not be, 439 00:36:13,433 --> 00:36:18,433 and especially when -- and I want to use Brendan Carr, a tweet from February of 2019. 440 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:25,100 He wrote: "Should the government censor speech it doesn't like? Of course not. The 441 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:30,100 FCC does not have a roving mandate to police speech in the name of the public interest." 442 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,533 What did we just see? Or take a look at Stephen Miller. He's deputy chief of staff now, 443 00:36:39,266 --> 00:36:44,266 a tweet from April of 2022: "If the idea of free speech enrages you, the cornerstone of 444 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,500 democratic self-government, then I regret to inform you that you are a fascist." 445 00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:52,033 And I could read other tweets. There's always a tweet for something. 446 00:36:52,033 --> 00:36:54,866 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Sure. The president's executive order said -- defended the 447 00:36:54,866 --> 00:36:56,933 First Amendment when he first came into office. 448 00:36:56,933 --> 00:36:58,466 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 449 00:36:58,466 --> 00:37:00,366 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How did we get, though, from there to here? 450 00:37:00,366 --> 00:37:04,400 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, you I think we got there, from there to here, 451 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,400 because we have to understand what he meant, I think, by the free press. 452 00:37:11,433 --> 00:37:15,400 And, really, what it -- to my mind, it is OK for us to do this to them. It was bad, 453 00:37:19,833 --> 00:37:24,833 it's really bad if liberals or Democrats say nasty things about me, about our movement, about 454 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,600 what we're trying to do, and that's censorship. But now that we're in power and they're still 455 00:37:34,766 --> 00:37:39,233 leveling these criticisms and critiques, well, that's really bad and we have to crack down. 456 00:37:41,066 --> 00:37:44,666 And what's really problematic in all of this is, it's not just the president. 457 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,200 He is surrounded by enablers who are not willing to tell him, you can't do this, 458 00:37:52,133 --> 00:37:55,800 or who are true believers and want -- and are more than happy to do his bidding. 459 00:37:57,933 --> 00:38:01,900 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, Kimmel suffered the consequences for his comments, but he's not the 460 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:06,300 only one certainly. There's -- USA Today has got a ticker up. I think it's over 100 people 461 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:11,300 already who have been censured or fired for their comments, some of which those comments 462 00:38:13,433 --> 00:38:17,000 were grotesque and horrendous, and others were kind of grounded in fact and not inappropriate. 463 00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:22,133 Do you think we have just lost this balance between 464 00:38:22,133 --> 00:38:26,833 what is truly dangerous speech and what is protected critique? 465 00:38:26,833 --> 00:38:29,033 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, we have lost the boundaries. 466 00:38:29,033 --> 00:38:32,533 I mean, you're not allowed to say -- famously, shout fire in a crowded theater. You can't 467 00:38:32,533 --> 00:38:37,200 urge people to go kill somebody. Like, if it leads to violence, that should be prohibited speech, 468 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,733 and especially if you're a private company and you care about the integrity of your institution. 469 00:38:41,733 --> 00:38:45,600 But that boundary has been blurred. Let me try to describe what it feels like for a 470 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,600 lot of the folks on the right. So, in their view, I would say to my Democratic friends, 471 00:38:52,366 --> 00:38:55,900 imagine you woke up and every media organization you saw preached Christian 472 00:38:55,900 --> 00:39:00,900 nationalism. You sent your kids to school, and they were being taught Christian nationalism. 473 00:39:02,666 --> 00:39:05,433 You turned on late-night comedy, and it's all Christian nationalism. For 474 00:39:05,433 --> 00:39:07,966 conservatives, that's how it feels that they... 475 00:39:07,966 --> 00:39:10,233 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To live in our current world. 476 00:39:10,233 --> 00:39:12,933 DAVID BROOKS: Look in our current culture, and that one of the things that's happened over the 477 00:39:12,933 --> 00:39:17,433 last 50 years is that, as progressives who have gotten control of various cultural institutions, 478 00:39:17,433 --> 00:39:21,100 they have excluded a lot of conservative and working-class voices. And so a lot 479 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,533 of people feel completely shut out. And late-night comedy is the perfect example. 480 00:39:24,533 --> 00:39:28,300 You could be right or left. You could watch "Letterman." You could watch Carson. And you could 481 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:32,700 laugh. But now late-night TV is -- it's about laughter, but it's also about making progressives 482 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,933 feel good about themselves, making them feel smug. And even I can't watch late-night TV anymore. 483 00:39:39,033 --> 00:39:42,866 But the difference is, you fight culture -- if you don't like the progressive culture, 484 00:39:42,866 --> 00:39:46,400 create a conservative culture. And to his great credit -- I rarely get to praise 485 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,400 Tucker Carlson anymore -- but he went on his show and said, if the Trump administration 486 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,466 tries to damage free speech using this as a pretext, it's time for civil disobedience. 487 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,133 And so he understands you fight cultural power with cultural -- countercultural power. 488 00:40:02,133 --> 00:40:07,133 That's how the game plays. To use federal power is definitely breaching the line. 489 00:40:08,666 --> 00:40:10,866 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: You used the term authoritarianism before, 490 00:40:10,866 --> 00:40:15,300 Jonathan. And do you -- I mean, this has been now another one of the very successful efforts 491 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,466 that the Trump administration has used with law firms, with universities, with media companies. 492 00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:27,233 Where do you see this going? Where do you see this ending? 493 00:40:27,233 --> 00:40:29,266 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, I don't know. 494 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,133 I would like to think that there would be a media company or a band of law firms or a band of 495 00:40:38,666 --> 00:40:43,533 institutions of higher learning who would be willing to push back. It's not enough 496 00:40:43,533 --> 00:40:48,033 that Harvard is willing to push back. It's not enough that The New York Times 497 00:40:48,033 --> 00:40:51,066 and The Wall Street Journal are willing to push back. 498 00:40:51,066 --> 00:40:56,033 And I can't think of a media organization, other than The New York Times -- I'm thinking 499 00:40:58,133 --> 00:41:01,633 of television -- where they have been in the crosshairs of the president's rhetoric 500 00:41:03,633 --> 00:41:06,833 and have said, no, we're not going to do it. We're not going to do what you want. 501 00:41:09,066 --> 00:41:13,233 And, again, I go back to, sometimes, I wonder, is it acquiescence? Is it obeying in advance? 502 00:41:16,933 --> 00:41:21,933 Or is it, I'm kind of down with this, I'm fine with this, and I'm going to ride this wave 503 00:41:24,366 --> 00:41:28,733 because, with the president doing what he's doing, maybe we can get some other things that we want? 504 00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:36,100 And that that's why this slide, to me, it just - - it picks up speed every week that we sit here. 505 00:41:38,633 --> 00:41:43,633 We're talking about yet another level deeper into what lots of academicians and others have 506 00:41:48,333 --> 00:41:53,300 said the march to authoritarianism. People say we're sliding into it. I say, no, we're in it. 507 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,633 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, David, I remember a month or two ago you were sitting right 508 00:41:57,633 --> 00:42:02,100 here arguing that there needs to be this larger civic movement that you were just talking about. 509 00:42:04,066 --> 00:42:06,400 Do you think that there are any flames of that happening? Do you see it anywhere? 510 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,500 DAVID BROOKS: I think I see little flames, but not the big ones. People 511 00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:13,500 are intimidated. People don't understand the nature of the fight there in the middle of. 512 00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:17,600 One big mystery I have had is that I spent parts of this weekend in Central 513 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,600 and Eastern Tennessee, and I probably had a conversation with 300 or 400 people. And 514 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,866 they all -- the way they talked about the Kirk thing was all wonderful. Some 515 00:42:26,866 --> 00:42:31,033 people like Charlie Kirk. Somebody didn't like Charlie Kirk. But they had feeling for sympathy. 516 00:42:31,033 --> 00:42:35,833 The conversation I see online has nothing in common with the conversation I had with 517 00:42:35,833 --> 00:42:40,833 all these people in Tennessee. And so my question is, if it's only 1 percent of America that really 518 00:42:42,866 --> 00:42:47,400 thinks violence is necessary and likes what happened to Charlie Kirk, does that matter? 519 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,233 If 99 percent don't, the problem is, as Damon Linker, who teaches at Penn, 520 00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,400 said this week on a podcast, 1 percent of America is three million people. 521 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,766 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. 522 00:42:59,766 --> 00:43:02,066 DAVID BROOKS: If three million people believe in violence, they can do an awful lot of damage. And 523 00:43:02,066 --> 00:43:06,700 I'm old enough to remember, when I was 7 years old sitting in my little elementary school, 524 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:10,533 the Weathermen blew themselves up in a New York townhome right by my school. 525 00:43:10,533 --> 00:43:15,533 And in those days, the '60s, there were 4,000 bombings on college campus in the '69-'70... 526 00:43:16,733 --> 00:43:18,900 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. We forget that history. 527 00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,600 DAVID BROOKS: And it was brutal, let alone Kent State, let alone the riots, let alone all that. 528 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,800 And one thing that happened -- I think that was fringes doing most of that, 529 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,666 except for the National Guard at Kent State. That was not the fringe. But a lot of people 530 00:43:29,666 --> 00:43:34,666 pulled back. They looked into the abyss and they pulled back. And what did they do? They elected, 531 00:43:36,866 --> 00:43:40,600 as my colleague David French put it, a Baptist Sunday schoolteacher as president in 1976. 532 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,200 And then they elected the sunniest human being on the face of the earth as president in 1980. 533 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,833 So the electorate said, no, we're not going down this abyss. I don't think we're at that 534 00:43:49,833 --> 00:43:54,833 point where the whole country is pulling back and getting out of the spiral, but I'm hopeful. 535 00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:57,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Hopeful? 536 00:43:57,033 --> 00:43:58,433 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I'm perennially hopeful. 537 00:43:58,433 --> 00:43:59,833 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Thirty seconds, I'm sorry to say. 538 00:43:59,833 --> 00:44:02,066 JONATHAN CAPEHART: No, no, I'm perennially hopeful, 539 00:44:02,066 --> 00:44:06,500 the but one difference now is that we have a president of the United States who lives online. 540 00:44:08,533 --> 00:44:13,433 And if it's 1 percent who are listening to him and the things he puts on social media, 541 00:44:13,433 --> 00:44:18,066 the way he speaks about things, that doesn't help us as an electorate pull 542 00:44:18,066 --> 00:44:22,200 back from -- pull back from the abyss, pull back from the brink. 543 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,266 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, so nice to see you both. Thank you. 544 00:44:26,166 --> 00:44:30,633 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thank you. 545 00:44:41,166 --> 00:44:45,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The music industry, full of glamorous stars and thrilling performances, 546 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:50,500 can also be grueling for the musicians themselves, sometimes even with tragic consequences. 547 00:44:52,333 --> 00:44:56,600 A 2024 MusiCares survey revealed that over 8 percent of respondents within 548 00:44:58,066 --> 00:45:00,733 that industry had to be serious thoughts of suicide in the past 549 00:45:00,733 --> 00:45:05,700 year. That is notably higher than the 5 percent rate among the general population. 550 00:45:07,533 --> 00:45:10,133 Senior arts correspondent Jeffrey Brown reports from Park City, Utah, 551 00:45:10,133 --> 00:45:15,133 on a side of the music world that is starting to get more attention. It's for our ongoing 552 00:45:17,166 --> 00:45:20,266 coverage of the intersection of health and arts, which is part of our Canvas series. 553 00:45:21,566 --> 00:45:25,500 JEFFREY BROWN: The sound of music in the mountains, 554 00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:30,500 the band on stage in a gorgeous setting, a happy crowd, in many ways, 555 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,933 the quintessential summer music festival. But listen to some of the stories we heard. 556 00:45:37,833 --> 00:45:39,600 L.P. GIOBBI, Electronic Dance Deejay: It feels like extreme highs and extreme 557 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,433 lows. I feel full of gratitude and I feel extremely overwhelmed. 558 00:45:42,433 --> 00:45:45,666 ANDERS OSBORNE, Musician: You need help. Without people helping me back then, 559 00:45:45,666 --> 00:45:48,533 especially the first year, I would not be here. 560 00:45:48,533 --> 00:45:50,633 HILARY GLEASON, Co-Founder and Executive Director, Backline: The problem that we 561 00:45:50,633 --> 00:45:54,900 were seeing was that we were losing music industry folks to addiction and suicide. 562 00:45:56,300 --> 00:45:57,566 JEFFREY BROWN: People you knew. 563 00:45:57,566 --> 00:46:01,100 HILARY GLEASON: People that I knew, yes. 564 00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:06,100 JEFFREY BROWN: The Park City Song Summit in Utah had plenty of music over three days headlined this 565 00:46:08,133 --> 00:46:11,700 year by bands such as Goose and Dawes. But here the emphasis was also on mental health 566 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,600 and wellness, an array of alcohol-free drinks at night, ivy drips and B12 shots in the afternoon, 567 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:31,300 yoga, meditation and song baths for a positive start to the morning. 568 00:46:32,766 --> 00:46:34,366 MARCUS KING, Musician: Good friends one after the other. 569 00:46:34,366 --> 00:46:37,033 JEFFREY BROWN: But things also went deeper, sometimes darker. 570 00:46:37,033 --> 00:46:42,033 Grammy nominee Marcus King here was chef and TV host Andrew Zimmern talked openly 571 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,400 about the common pressures of their two industries and the toll taken. 572 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,933 MARCUS KING: I was really going to check out. That was my plan was, 573 00:46:50,933 --> 00:46:55,933 I got an old car, I got a garage. It was like exit stage left. Here we go. 574 00:46:58,066 --> 00:47:01,733 JEFFREY BROWN: King was able to turn things around and help others through his foundation, 575 00:47:01,733 --> 00:47:05,066 destigmatizing addiction and mental health struggles. 576 00:47:05,066 --> 00:47:06,933 MARCUS KING: Just making that first leap, 577 00:47:06,933 --> 00:47:11,733 asking somebody for help doesn't make you look weak. It's quite the contrary. 578 00:47:11,733 --> 00:47:13,900 JEFFREY BROWN: These sessions are called labs, 579 00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:18,900 one signal, says Song Summit founder Ben Anderson, that this festival is different. 580 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,566 BEN ANDERSON, Founder, Park City Song Summit: Yes. We're getting the chemistry together in there and we're getting people in the same room in an 581 00:47:24,566 --> 00:47:27,733 intimate setting where their personalities and their heart and their spirit can come together, 582 00:47:27,733 --> 00:47:32,466 and they can be vulnerable and very transparent about things like mental health, 583 00:47:32,466 --> 00:47:37,466 about chemical dependency, about trauma, or maybe about their songwriting process, 584 00:47:39,566 --> 00:47:42,600 or why they wrote a particular song, what drives them, what inspires them, what scares them. 585 00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:45,000 JEFFREY BROWN: Things that they don't often get to talk about. 586 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,400 BEN ANDERSON: Right. 587 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,733 JEFFREY BROWN: Counselors like Keith Fairman (ph) made themselves available to support groups no 588 00:47:52,933 --> 00:47:56,733 matter how small, behind the scenes gatherings of audience members in recovery, even amid the 589 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:03,300 performance stages and for musicians, roadies, and others in the industry, a chance to check in, 590 00:48:07,033 --> 00:48:12,033 talk with peers who share, without stigma, the hard knowledge of addiction and life on the road. 591 00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:22,633 ANDERS OSBORNE: I lost everything. I lived in the park, homeless, 592 00:48:22,633 --> 00:48:25,666 penniless, careerless, everything, yes. 593 00:48:29,266 --> 00:48:34,266 JEFFREY BROWN: Now 59 and 17 years sober, Swedish-born New Orleans-based blues rocker 594 00:48:36,933 --> 00:48:41,933 Anders Osborne says he survived his drug and alcohol addiction and found a way forward as 595 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,266 a touring musician through the help of friends. And he's paid it forward, creating an organization 596 00:48:50,533 --> 00:48:54,500 called Send Me a Friend, a database that allows working musicians wherever they are to ask someone 597 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,066 to simply come sit nearby during a performance, just as his friends first did for him. 598 00:49:02,833 --> 00:49:05,200 ANDERS OSBORNE: So I played and they kept people away, drug dealers, 599 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,266 people that brought me shots or whatever, all this stuff. This is within the first year, 600 00:49:09,266 --> 00:49:14,266 six months into my sobriety. And I remember looking over and going, 601 00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:19,933 I'm working. I felt accountable. I'm not partying. My tribe's here. I'm good. Not just feeling safe, 602 00:49:23,033 --> 00:49:28,033 but knowing why I'm there. I'm not there for any other reason than to entertain these people. 603 00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:33,300 JEFFREY BROWN: You found a way to continue as a musician, as a creative person while in recovery. 604 00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:36,433 ANDERS OSBORNE: Yes, it's difficult. 605 00:49:36,433 --> 00:49:38,166 JEFFREY BROWN: Yes, still? 606 00:49:38,166 --> 00:49:41,433 ANDERS OSBORNE: Not that I want to use, but, yes, it's -- sometimes, 607 00:49:41,433 --> 00:49:46,433 there are conversations I don't want to have with people that are high or intoxicated. That's part 608 00:49:48,566 --> 00:49:51,533 of the scene. So you have to find an attitude and be accepting of that as part of my job. 609 00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,600 For me, I have to meditate prior to the show. I have to be prepared for what's coming. 610 00:50:02,066 --> 00:50:06,233 JEFFREY BROWN: Pressures old and some new. Today's music industry 611 00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:12,100 revolves around new technology and business models, as well as always-on social media. 612 00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:19,333 Hilary Gleason heads a nonprofit called Backline. 613 00:50:19,333 --> 00:50:23,900 HILARY GLEASON: The pressure to be responsive to fans, to be on, to be showing them behind the 614 00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:28,533 scenes of your life, I think certainly technology has impacted in that way, 615 00:50:28,533 --> 00:50:33,533 but also the rise of streaming platforms and the changing in the revenue models of 616 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,066 the music industry have made it so that more and more folks have to go on tour to make a living. 617 00:50:39,066 --> 00:50:41,933 And touring is incredibly challenging. 618 00:50:41,933 --> 00:50:44,500 JEFFREY BROWN: Backline helps musicians and those working with 619 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:49,466 them find a variety of services, including on-the-road wellness and therapy support. 620 00:50:51,533 --> 00:50:56,100 And Gleason is seeing growing awareness of the need for an industry-wide approach. 621 00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,400 CHAPPELL ROAN, Musician: Labels, we got you, but do you got us? 622 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,100 JEFFREY BROWN: One notable moment came at this year's Grammys, 623 00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:08,100 when pop star Chappell Roan accepted her award for best new artist and called on music labels 624 00:51:09,766 --> 00:51:13,833 to offer artists health insurance, including mental health services. 625 00:51:13,833 --> 00:51:15,766 But she's doing that as a star, right? 626 00:51:15,766 --> 00:51:17,833 HILARY GLEASON: Yes. Yes. JEFFREY BROWN: So if you're starting out, 627 00:51:17,833 --> 00:51:21,966 you can't go to your record label and say, give me health insurance. 628 00:51:21,966 --> 00:51:26,966 HILARY GLEASON: You can't, but you may be approached by several record labels. And it's 629 00:51:29,066 --> 00:51:33,400 the defining difference for some artists now in choosing where to sign. Just over the past year 630 00:51:35,533 --> 00:51:38,433 or two, we have started to see people make this actually a line item in their touring budgets. 631 00:51:40,733 --> 00:51:43,866 JEFFREY BROWN: One artist working into the late hours at Song Summit, electronic dance deejay 632 00:51:43,866 --> 00:51:48,833 and producer L.P. Giobbi, whose go-all-night, globe-trotting life, one night here in Utah, 633 00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:59,300 the next in Spain, would leave anyone gasping for breath and a bit of sanity. 634 00:52:00,433 --> 00:52:02,900 L.P. GIOBBI: My name is L.P. Giobbi. 635 00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:06,500 JEFFREY BROWN: At Song Summit, she also took the time to offer a master class to young musicians. 636 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,533 Like everyone we met here, L.P. Giobbi spoke of those who didn't survive. In her world, 637 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:20,100 it was the phenomenally successful Swedish deejay Avicii, who took his life in 2018 at age 28. 638 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,633 L.P. GIOBBI: I thought a lot more would change after Avicii. 639 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,500 There was a lot of talk about mental health. But I don't know if much did. 640 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,133 HILARY GLEASON: I believe she played some 300 shows last year. 641 00:52:36,133 --> 00:52:40,133 JEFFREY BROWN: She's had her own struggles, living her dream in a very competitive field, 642 00:52:40,133 --> 00:52:44,066 especially, she says, for women, but always feeling on the edge of 643 00:52:44,066 --> 00:52:48,700 losing it and more. She now works with Hilary Gleason of Backline. 644 00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:52,266 L.P. GIOBBI: I have used the resources to find an amazing therapist and psychiatrist 645 00:52:52,266 --> 00:52:55,933 and wellness coach and I find different breath work instructors in every city, 646 00:52:55,933 --> 00:53:00,800 and that's been a lifeline for me right now, like just breathing. 647 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,900 And if I was going to talk to somebody who's starting out on this journey, 648 00:53:03,900 --> 00:53:06,300 protect your peace at all costs. 649 00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:10,300 JEFFREY BROWN: Small personal steps and at one small music festival, 650 00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:14,233 but, says Song Summit's Ben Anderson, with outsized impact. 651 00:53:14,233 --> 00:53:15,633 Still, this is a small gathering. 652 00:53:15,633 --> 00:53:16,766 BEN ANDERSON: Yes. 653 00:53:16,766 --> 00:53:17,533 JEFFREY BROWN: A few thousand people. 654 00:53:17,533 --> 00:53:19,300 BEN ANDERSON: Yes. 655 00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:22,200 JEFFREY BROWN: Doesn't change all that much in the larger music world. 656 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,200 BEN ANDERSON: Here's what I would say to that. Do you know how many people have come to me and 657 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:30,000 said either their artist, someone in their camp, or an audience member has gotten the 658 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,533 help that they needed? That never impacts just one person. It's dozens of people. 659 00:53:34,533 --> 00:53:38,533 So my mentality is never like, well, it's not big enough. It's, 660 00:53:38,533 --> 00:53:42,366 we will have enough impact to where it will be bigger. 661 00:53:42,366 --> 00:53:46,166 JEFFREY BROWN: For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Jeffrey Brown in Park City, Utah. 662 00:54:03,033 --> 00:54:08,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Remember, there is a lot more online, including a look at a new vaccine that 663 00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:13,133 aims to protect koala bears against chlamydia. You can find that on our Instagram page right now. 664 00:54:15,066 --> 00:54:18,300 Be sure to tune into "Washington Week With The Atlantic" later tonight right 665 00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:23,300 here on PBS. The panel examines President Trump's efforts to silence his critics. 666 00:54:25,266 --> 00:54:29,066 And watch "PBS News Weekend" tomorrow for a look at a public garden in Michigan that 667 00:54:31,133 --> 00:54:34,500 evolves with the seasons, thanks to meticulous design and an army of volunteer gardeners. 668 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,700 That is the "News Hour" for tonight. I'm William Brangham. 669 00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:43,300 On behalf of the entire "News Hour" team, thank you so much for joining us. Have a great weekend.