WEBVTT 00:00.866 --> 00:01.633 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Support for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:01.633 --> 00:03.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% comes from Hilco Partners, 00:03.333 --> 00:05.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% a Texas government affairs consultancy. 00:05.433 --> 00:07.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 00:07.033 --> 00:10.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing 00:10.233 --> 00:13.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication 00:13.400 --> 00:14.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% EllerGroup.com 00:15.266 --> 00:16.566 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:16.566 --> 00:19.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% He's the LeBron James of basketball analytics, 00:19.533 --> 00:22.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% a former NBA analyst at ESPN, 00:22.366 --> 00:25.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% the former chief analytics consultant for USA Basketball, 00:25.700 --> 00:28.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and the author of a great new book about the game, 00:28.233 --> 00:29.666 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% "Hoop Atlas: 00:29.666 --> 00:32.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mapping the Remarkable Transformation of the NBA." 00:32.766 --> 00:35.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% He's Kirk Goldsberry. This is "Overheard." 00:36.933 --> 00:39.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 00:39.900 --> 00:41.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You really turn the conversation 00:41.300 --> 00:44.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% around about what leadership should be about. 00:44.033 --> 00:45.400 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Are we blowing this? 00:45.400 --> 00:47.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 00:47.100 --> 00:49.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% by giving into the attention junkie? 00:49.133 --> 00:51.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 00:51.533 --> 00:54.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 00:54.366 --> 00:56.000 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% This is "Overheard." 00:56.000 --> 00:58.966 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% (audience applauds) 01:00.266 --> 01:01.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Kirk Goldsberry, welcome. Good to see you. 01:01.833 --> 01:03.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - It's great to be here, Evan. Thanks for having me. 01:03.566 --> 01:06.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Thank you very much for being here. I love this book. 01:06.300 --> 01:07.666 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Thanks. 01:07.666 --> 01:09.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - But I'm trying to understand the difference 01:09.266 --> 01:10.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% between this book and your last one. 01:10.633 --> 01:12.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So you wrote a bestselling book about the NBA, 01:12.533 --> 01:15.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% arguably about the modern era of the NBA, as well, 01:15.700 --> 01:17.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% called Sprawlball," this was in 2020. 01:17.800 --> 01:18.733 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 01:18.733 --> 01:20.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Here we are, four years later. 01:20.166 --> 01:21.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% We have another book, surely will be a bestseller, 01:21.766 --> 01:23.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about the modern era of the NBA. 01:23.666 --> 01:25.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Why did we need another? 01:25.400 --> 01:29.700 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% - Well, the first book really focused and zeroed in 01:29.700 --> 01:31.766 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% on how the three point shot and analytics 01:31.766 --> 01:35.733 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% sort of converged to update the look and feel of basketball. 01:35.733 --> 01:37.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And I wouldn't say overlooked 01:37.800 --> 01:41.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% the impact of individual players, but in this one, 01:41.133 --> 01:44.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I really wanted to focus almost like a jazz historian would, 01:44.266 --> 01:47.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on how the individual superstars 01:47.133 --> 01:49.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% who are extremely influential in our league 01:49.433 --> 01:52.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% reshaped basketball with different techniques 01:52.233 --> 01:55.033 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and approaches and triumphs that ended up changing 01:55.033 --> 01:57.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% how we look at greatness in pro hoops. 01:57.166 --> 01:58.800 align:left position:32.5% line:5% size:57.5% - Well, and you actually, in fairness, 01:58.800 --> 02:00.466 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% you telegraph that in the name of the book. 02:00.466 --> 02:01.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% The book is called "Hoop Atlas." 02:01.866 --> 02:03.433 align:left position:35% line:5% size:55% And it's this great play on words 02:03.433 --> 02:05.266 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% because an atlas is a collection of maps 02:05.266 --> 02:06.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and there are many maps. 02:06.866 --> 02:10.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% You use mapping to visualize data in this book, 02:10.100 --> 02:11.400 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to tell the story of the NBA. 02:11.400 --> 02:12.933 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% We'll come to that in a bit. 02:12.933 --> 02:15.500 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% But also you're referring to Atlas as in Greek mythology, 02:15.500 --> 02:19.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% holding the weight of the heavens on his shoulders. 02:19.033 --> 02:21.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And the reality is that you say, very clearly in this book, 02:21.433 --> 02:23.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there are certain players in professional basketball 02:23.333 --> 02:26.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% who hold the weight of the sport on their shoulders. 02:26.533 --> 02:28.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Right, and we start with Michael Jordan. 02:28.366 --> 02:31.333 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And ironically, torturing that metaphor, 02:31.333 --> 02:34.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% start with a famous shrug in the 1992 finals 02:34.966 --> 02:37.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he made six threes and shrugged at the camera. 02:37.600 --> 02:39.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And we call that "Atlas shrugged." 02:39.066 --> 02:42.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I don't necessarily endorse the ideology there, 02:42.000 --> 02:44.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it was torturing the Atlas metaphor even further. 02:44.033 --> 02:46.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But the larger point is, yeah, pro basketball, 02:46.600 --> 02:48.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% more than pro football, more than baseball, 02:48.933 --> 02:50.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% more than any other sport, 02:50.400 --> 02:52.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% really looks at these individual players 02:52.666 --> 02:56.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% to show us the next step in the basketball evolution. 02:56.600 --> 02:59.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And Jordan really modernized the game after Magic. 02:59.966 --> 03:02.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And Larry had brought it to new heights. 03:02.000 --> 03:03.433 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Of course, I don't want to challenge you on this, 03:03.433 --> 03:05.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because you're an expert and I'm a mere amateur, 03:05.500 --> 03:07.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but, today in baseball, 03:07.666 --> 03:09.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% whether it's Aaron Judge or Shohei Ohtani, 03:09.766 --> 03:12.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% there are sort of in that sport players 03:12.800 --> 03:14.700 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% who are carrying the weight of the game on their shoulders. 03:14.700 --> 03:16.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Like we could spend probably 30 minutes talking about this. 03:16.833 --> 03:18.300 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 03:18.300 --> 03:19.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But I'll stipulate your point, that in basketball, 03:19.633 --> 03:22.433 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% certain people have been elevated, 03:22.433 --> 03:24.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% or have elevated the sport themselves 03:24.166 --> 03:27.200 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% in a way that calls them out, deserves being called out. 03:27.200 --> 03:29.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, and they almost deformed the medium. 03:29.433 --> 03:30.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They reform the medium. 03:30.933 --> 03:33.333 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Stephen Curry's another great example, 03:33.333 --> 03:35.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% who challenges what greatness looks like. 03:35.266 --> 03:37.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, and in fact, if you watch the Olympics, 03:37.266 --> 03:38.500 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% I know you did, and I did. 03:38.500 --> 03:40.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% We talked about this after that famous, 03:40.433 --> 03:43.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% now I think we'll be infamous last game, 03:43.033 --> 03:44.700 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% the gold medal round, right? 03:44.700 --> 03:45.633 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Where they won the gold medal 03:45.633 --> 03:47.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where he hit three after three. 03:47.633 --> 03:50.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% That most impossible of all threes, 03:50.400 --> 03:54.300 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% over two guys, kind of on his back foot, right, in the end. 03:54.300 --> 03:57.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% He is one of one, not one of many. 03:57.566 --> 03:58.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - And he changed the sport forever. 03:58.966 --> 04:01.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're here in Austin, if you go to a playground 04:01.300 --> 04:03.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% or a youth basketball game tomorrow, 04:03.066 --> 04:05.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you'll see a bunch of kids shooting threes 04:05.300 --> 04:07.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% in a way that when I was young, we weren't doing that. 04:07.600 --> 04:10.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% That's what I'm saying. These people are very influential. 04:10.766 --> 04:13.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Charles Barkley famously said, they're not role models, 04:13.700 --> 04:16.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% but certainly to young hoopers, they are. 04:16.500 --> 04:18.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And Stephen Curry, and what a moment, by the way. 04:18.633 --> 04:20.000 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - [Evan] Yeah. 04:20.000 --> 04:21.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Reminding the world that Americans are still here 04:21.333 --> 04:23.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% in the greatest sport on earth, basketball. 04:23.400 --> 04:27.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But doing it with his stylistic innovation, 04:27.200 --> 04:30.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% which is just self-created threes in many cases, 04:30.200 --> 04:31.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% dribbling into threes, 04:31.833 --> 04:34.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% against the best defenders the other team has to offer. 04:34.533 --> 04:35.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% There's nothing you can do to stop it. 04:35.966 --> 04:38.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And, you know, he won the Serbia game too for us 04:38.800 --> 04:41.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% in the semi-finals against Nikola Jokic, who many consider 04:41.966 --> 04:44.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to be the best player on the planet right now. 04:44.533 --> 04:48.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% But again, Stephen is unlike any superstar we've ever had. 04:48.466 --> 04:50.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And he sort of portends 04:50.200 --> 04:52.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% a new kind of jump shooting superstar 04:52.766 --> 04:54.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that we didn't really consider beforehand. 04:54.466 --> 04:56.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - There's something about him, again, expert, amateur, 04:56.666 --> 04:57.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but I want to just observe, 04:57.900 --> 04:59.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% watching that game that occurred to me. 04:59.400 --> 05:02.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So many of our sports heroes and so many in basketball, 05:03.800 --> 05:06.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% their confidence in themselves borders on arrogance, right? 05:06.766 --> 05:08.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that's part of their brands. 05:08.400 --> 05:10.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% He seems to be the opposite of that. 05:10.300 --> 05:12.500 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% He seems like a very humble, 05:12.500 --> 05:15.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I mean, I understand, he did this, I get it. 05:15.633 --> 05:18.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% But he nonetheless seems like not cut from exactly 05:18.600 --> 05:20.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the same cloth as the rest of these guys. 05:20.233 --> 05:21.466 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Is that a right read on him? 05:21.466 --> 05:23.133 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Yeah, I think he's very confident. 05:23.133 --> 05:25.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when I was with the Spurs in the front office 05:25.533 --> 05:27.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and he would kick our butts, 05:27.000 --> 05:28.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% he seemed arrogant to me at those times. 05:28.800 --> 05:30.066 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% (audience laughs) 05:30.066 --> 05:32.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But, you know, when I got for this book 05:32.533 --> 05:36.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to get a lot of time with Stephen in his private workouts 05:36.933 --> 05:40.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% in the off season, the dude is a scientist. 05:40.533 --> 05:43.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% There's nobody works harder than him in the NBA. 05:43.800 --> 05:45.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And everything is intentional. 05:45.233 --> 05:47.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And it's very scientific work. 05:47.166 --> 05:48.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% Yeah, it's very intentional 05:48.666 --> 05:51.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% how he looks at his one-on-one workouts. 05:51.400 --> 05:54.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And one of the reasons he's so great and so unprecedented 05:54.366 --> 05:58.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% is he's taken practice and made it perfect 05:58.066 --> 06:00.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to turn the traditional phrase. 06:00.700 --> 06:02.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He is so smart, 06:02.000 --> 06:03.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and his trainer, Brandon Payne, 06:03.166 --> 06:05.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% who is a great character in this book, 06:05.566 --> 06:07.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% helped me understand what it takes 06:07.500 --> 06:10.400 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% to develop an unprecedented 30 foot shot 06:10.400 --> 06:13.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that would sort of challenge basketball. 06:13.200 --> 06:15.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - So, let's talk about the big takeaways from this book 06:15.266 --> 06:17.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% because I think, you know, somebody else reading it 06:17.000 --> 06:18.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% might have taken away certain other things, 06:18.766 --> 06:20.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but I was struck by a couple things, 06:20.600 --> 06:21.700 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% so I'm gonna call those out. 06:21.700 --> 06:23.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% First of all, the degree to which 06:23.600 --> 06:26.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the offensive game in basketball 06:26.233 --> 06:30.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is so much more efficient today than it used to be. 06:30.366 --> 06:31.266 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Right. 06:31.266 --> 06:32.566 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Right? Talk about that. 06:32.566 --> 06:33.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That seems to be a theme throughout this book. 06:33.866 --> 06:35.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, so a few things happen. 06:35.466 --> 06:37.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Most important, I would say in 2003, 06:37.566 --> 06:40.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% a book called "Moneyball" comes out 06:40.200 --> 06:42.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and really challenges all pro sports 06:42.766 --> 06:44.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to get their stuff together, so to speak. 06:44.933 --> 06:48.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And really think about how financial reasoning 06:48.300 --> 06:50.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% can influence or help us understand performances 06:50.866 --> 06:52.833 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% on the field or on the court. 06:52.833 --> 06:54.633 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Obviously, that started in baseball, 06:54.633 --> 06:57.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but then front offices start to care 06:57.000 --> 07:00.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% about the word efficiency a lot more than they had. 07:00.133 --> 07:04.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And really new rubrics emerge to judge players. 07:04.200 --> 07:05.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Right. Metrics change. 07:05.166 --> 07:06.700 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Metrics changed. 07:06.700 --> 07:10.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And the sort of congruence between statistical efficiency 07:10.200 --> 07:13.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and what we would consider greatness started to align more. 07:13.533 --> 07:15.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - So the performance of these players 07:15.466 --> 07:17.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that we're seeing has really been engineered. 07:17.266 --> 07:21.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Correct, and sometimes by the players themselves. 07:21.066 --> 07:24.433 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% This is not just like Billy Beane and in some back room, 07:24.433 --> 07:25.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% like running numbers. 07:25.933 --> 07:27.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The players themselves, 07:27.666 --> 07:29.866 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% famously, James Harden, I would argue, 07:29.866 --> 07:32.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% really epitomizes becoming super savvy 07:32.733 --> 07:36.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about how my performance filters through these numbers. 07:36.033 --> 07:38.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Right, now, let me take a short walk from that 07:38.066 --> 07:39.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and observe as others. 07:39.633 --> 07:41.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I was talking to a bunch of basketball fans 07:41.900 --> 07:43.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% knowing I was gonna come and see you. 07:43.333 --> 07:45.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And I said, what would you ask Kirk Goldsberry? 07:45.266 --> 07:47.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And a consistent question I heard back was, 07:47.900 --> 07:51.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% people are scoring routinely 50, 60, 70 points in a game. 07:51.566 --> 07:52.666 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% That didn't use to happen. 07:52.666 --> 07:53.933 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Right. 07:53.933 --> 07:55.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Now it's sort of, we kind of go, well. 07:55.300 --> 07:56.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Speaking of shrugging, we kind of go, 07:56.600 --> 07:58.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% oh, they scored 60 or 70 points. 07:58.200 --> 08:00.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Is that a byproduct of offensive efficiency? 08:00.800 --> 08:04.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - It's a byproduct of an unending quest for efficiency 08:04.133 --> 08:07.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% coaches, players and front offices. 08:07.566 --> 08:08.933 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And in the book we talk about 08:08.933 --> 08:11.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% a new movement called heliocentrism, 08:11.400 --> 08:14.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% which is a new word for an old concept in hoops. 08:14.566 --> 08:16.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Like when Wilt Chamberlain played, 08:16.200 --> 08:18.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% the strategy of his team was 08:18.233 --> 08:20.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% "Duck. Get it to Wilt, and get out of the way." 08:20.166 --> 08:21.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Right. Right. 08:21.266 --> 08:22.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - That's still the strategy, 08:22.666 --> 08:24.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but we're seeing it from different kinds of players, 08:24.666 --> 08:26.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% not old-school post-up bigs 08:26.166 --> 08:28.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% like Wilt or Bill Russell or Kareem. 08:28.066 --> 08:29.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Now it's the Stephen, Donovan, 08:29.800 --> 08:32.066 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Mitchell, James Harden, Luka Doncic, 08:32.066 --> 08:35.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% just using possession after possession. 08:35.300 --> 08:37.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And just racking up crazy totals. 08:37.500 --> 08:38.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Not because they're better 08:38.633 --> 08:40.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% than Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, 08:40.300 --> 08:41.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% but because they're taking more shots 08:41.966 --> 08:43.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and using more possessions than those guys. 08:43.766 --> 08:44.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - It's also the case, I think, 08:44.866 --> 08:46.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and you tell me if this is right, 08:46.300 --> 08:47.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that there are not really teams 08:47.933 --> 08:50.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with one player and four stiffs on the court anymore. 08:50.766 --> 08:51.700 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Right. 08:51.700 --> 08:53.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - There are a lot more teams 08:53.200 --> 08:54.333 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% that have a number of people you could pass the ball to 08:54.333 --> 08:55.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with confidence are gonna score. 08:55.800 --> 08:57.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Oh yeah. So that's another great point, Evan. 08:57.766 --> 09:00.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Like, the NBA is generally 500 people at any given time, 09:00.766 --> 09:03.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and that group of 500 has never been so skilled 09:03.733 --> 09:06.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and never been so talented, particularly on offense, 09:06.900 --> 09:09.366 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and even more specifically, shooting the ball. 09:09.366 --> 09:13.533 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And so offenses are spread out and everybody's threatening. 09:13.533 --> 09:15.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Like, the coaches are chess masters now. 09:15.833 --> 09:19.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And every team decorates the court with dangerous threats 09:19.633 --> 09:21.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that make some of the stars' jobs even easier 09:21.900 --> 09:24.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% 'cause defenses have never been this thinned out. 09:24.300 --> 09:25.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Right, so on the question of offense, 09:25.800 --> 09:27.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% a second takeaway that I got from this book 09:27.900 --> 09:30.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% was the dominance of the corner three, 09:30.366 --> 09:34.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% as not just any three, but the corner three specifically, 09:34.200 --> 09:37.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% as a component of the modern game. 09:37.500 --> 09:39.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And again, if you watch the Olympics, you saw this. 09:39.866 --> 09:44.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I'm amazed at how often you see a shooter in the corner 09:44.766 --> 09:47.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% put up a three and you think yourself, 09:47.000 --> 09:48.433 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that's gonna go in, right? 09:48.433 --> 09:51.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And again, maybe I'm wrong about this, 09:51.066 --> 09:53.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but that didn't used to seem to be the case, right? 09:53.800 --> 09:55.233 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - No. 09:55.233 --> 09:57.066 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% So Bruce Bowen in San Antonio about 20 years ago, 09:57.066 --> 09:59.400 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% really started to define this new archetype 09:59.400 --> 10:01.566 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% of a player, a 3-and-D player. 10:01.566 --> 10:03.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And Gregg Popovich recognized 10:03.500 --> 10:06.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that by stationing this guy in the corner, 10:06.100 --> 10:09.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Tim Duncan got harassed less on the other side of the court 10:09.266 --> 10:10.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when he was posting on. 10:10.533 --> 10:12.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And so what happened is everybody followed suit. 10:12.600 --> 10:13.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% It's a copycat league. 10:13.800 --> 10:15.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But the corner three, I would argue, 10:15.966 --> 10:18.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is the most sort of prototypical element 10:18.466 --> 10:20.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of the analytics revolution in any sport. 10:20.366 --> 10:21.866 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - How's that? 10:21.866 --> 10:24.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Because it's called the smartest shot in basketball. 10:24.033 --> 10:26.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's certainly associated with the "Moneyball" movement. 10:26.500 --> 10:28.966 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And when you look at the math, 10:28.966 --> 10:31.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it is more efficient than layups 10:31.500 --> 10:33.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for a lot of players in the NBA. 10:33.066 --> 10:36.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - So it's not harder to hit a corner three than it is 10:36.133 --> 10:38.933 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% to hit a three from the center of the three point line? 10:38.933 --> 10:42.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - So it is harder for some of us, but what happens is. 10:42.400 --> 10:43.700 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Some of us, yes. 10:43.700 --> 10:46.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I will stipulate it would be harder for me. 10:46.233 --> 10:47.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% That's fine. Yeah. Right. 10:47.633 --> 10:49.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But I mean, I'm just looking at the angle of it 10:49.300 --> 10:50.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I'm thinking there's a whole bunch of things 10:50.733 --> 10:51.933 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that could go wrong there. 10:51.933 --> 10:53.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, so a lot of people are like, 10:53.200 --> 10:54.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% oh, that shot's a little bit shorter, 10:54.333 --> 10:55.966 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% that's why it's so efficient. 10:55.966 --> 10:57.100 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% That's kind of true. 10:57.100 --> 10:58.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But what's really happening, Evan, 10:58.700 --> 11:00.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is teams are putting better and better shooters over there 11:00.933 --> 11:02.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and they're designing offensive sets 11:02.866 --> 11:05.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% so that those shots, when they happen, 11:05.000 --> 11:07.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% are almost always ideal catch and shoot. 11:07.800 --> 11:10.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The guy's got his feet set and he's got a clean look 11:10.800 --> 11:12.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and there's nobody there. 11:12.233 --> 11:14.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So a lot of the shots above the break are polluted 11:14.433 --> 11:17.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% by unassisted attempts and all this technicalities, 11:17.266 --> 11:19.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but ultimately, it's good shooters 11:19.366 --> 11:21.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% taking clean shots in a great spot. 11:21.833 --> 11:23.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - So again, taking a short walk from this, 11:23.800 --> 11:25.766 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% are colleges and high schools 11:25.766 --> 11:29.300 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% seeing the emergence of the corner three 11:29.300 --> 11:31.933 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% as not something that you add to the menu, 11:31.933 --> 11:34.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% but it's a staple of the menu of skills 11:34.066 --> 11:36.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and therefore we're beginning to see 11:36.000 --> 11:38.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that become more of a feature of the college game 11:38.566 --> 11:39.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and of the high school game? 11:39.400 --> 11:40.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - A hundred percent. 11:40.933 --> 11:42.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And it's a great example of the sort of trickle down, 11:42.866 --> 11:44.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% sort of stylistic economics 11:44.600 --> 11:47.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the Currys and the Bowens and the Popovich's do. 11:47.333 --> 11:49.433 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% That you influence the game at the top, eventually. 11:49.433 --> 11:51.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, if you want to get into the NBA as a college player, 11:51.500 --> 11:52.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you better have a quarter three. 11:52.566 --> 11:53.900 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - A hundred percent. 11:53.900 --> 11:55.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Now, and again, some number of years ago 11:55.133 --> 11:56.300 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% that might not have been the case. 11:56.300 --> 11:57.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Yeah, and we talk about some guys 11:57.866 --> 12:00.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% who were already in the NBA and have become a lot wealthier 12:00.200 --> 12:01.566 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% or extended their careers, 12:01.566 --> 12:03.833 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% guys like Al Horford or Brook Lopez, 12:03.833 --> 12:06.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% who were not shooting threes in college, 12:06.366 --> 12:09.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but as they entered their prime and post-prime 12:09.366 --> 12:10.866 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% have extended their careers 12:10.866 --> 12:13.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and become NBA champions with that exact shot. 12:13.333 --> 12:14.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - They had to backfill it. 12:14.533 --> 12:15.466 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - They had to backfill it. Exactly. 12:15.466 --> 12:17.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Okay, so you mentioned Jokic. 12:17.433 --> 12:19.600 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% I mean, I am a Spurs fan. 12:19.600 --> 12:21.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% My house is a house full of Spurs fans, right. 12:21.700 --> 12:23.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I'll acknowledge that, cop to that. 12:23.900 --> 12:25.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% You know, we are Team Wemby. 12:25.333 --> 12:26.700 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yes. 12:26.700 --> 12:29.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - All day long, twice on Sunday, we are Team Wemby. 12:29.166 --> 12:31.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% It pained me to see Wemby 12:31.300 --> 12:33.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% playing for a team other than team USA, 12:33.900 --> 12:35.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% because Wemby is an international player 12:35.566 --> 12:37.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% who's come to play here. 12:37.000 --> 12:38.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And there are many of those, Jokic. 12:38.666 --> 12:41.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I mean, there's plenty of, in fact, that's a, again, 12:41.066 --> 12:42.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a third takeaway from this book 12:42.533 --> 12:46.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the extent to which the international players 12:46.700 --> 12:50.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% are having an influence as never before on the game. 12:50.066 --> 12:51.233 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yes. 12:51.233 --> 12:52.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% When I fell in love with basketball, 12:52.233 --> 12:53.833 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% basketball was not, obviously, 12:53.833 --> 12:55.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the second most popular sport in the world. 12:55.866 --> 12:58.566 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Now, it clearly is. And it's not close. 12:58.566 --> 13:01.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We're not catching soccer anytime soon. 13:01.366 --> 13:03.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% But Wemby, the French teams 13:03.166 --> 13:04.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that we saw at the Olympics, 13:04.633 --> 13:07.333 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% on both the men's and women's side provide evidence. 13:07.333 --> 13:08.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - God, they were both great, weren't they? 13:08.533 --> 13:09.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 13:09.433 --> 13:10.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - We could've easily lost. 13:10.766 --> 13:13.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Yeah. We needed Stephen Curry to do that. 13:13.800 --> 13:16.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But we're seeing two consecutive French players 13:16.133 --> 13:18.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% go number one in the NBA draft. 13:18.066 --> 13:21.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% An American player hasn't won the MVP in the 2020s yet. 13:21.566 --> 13:24.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% We've given five straight to international players. 13:24.700 --> 13:28.800 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% This is the world's game now, which is great, as a fan. 13:28.800 --> 13:31.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a great thing for Olympics, 13:31.166 --> 13:34.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it also means we're getting cool techniques 13:34.000 --> 13:36.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and cool kind of personnel from overseas. 13:36.733 --> 13:38.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And one of the things the Europeans have really given us, 13:38.633 --> 13:42.000 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and Wemby is probably the best example of, it's not Jokic, 13:42.000 --> 13:43.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is the hyper skilled big man 13:43.900 --> 13:45.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who can dribble past and shoot. 13:45.300 --> 13:47.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Oh, by the way, he's still seven feet tall 13:47.466 --> 13:49.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% and can rebound and block the shot. 13:49.200 --> 13:53.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - He's enormously not clumsy for a guy that big, 13:53.133 --> 13:54.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't know how else to say it. 13:54.433 --> 13:57.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - He's very graceful and fluid in his movements. 13:57.266 --> 13:58.866 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - And he can do many things. 13:58.866 --> 14:00.100 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Well, see, and that's the fourth point 14:00.100 --> 14:01.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I took away from this book, 14:01.100 --> 14:03.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that the role of the center 14:03.066 --> 14:05.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% has been redefined to some degree. 14:05.166 --> 14:09.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I wanted to confirm my view in my head. 14:09.633 --> 14:11.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Well, Wemby is a center. 14:11.400 --> 14:12.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Well, but he also doesn't only, 14:12.933 --> 14:15.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I mean, he can do a lot of things, right? 14:15.233 --> 14:19.333 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% - So the traditional sort of five man taxonomy of basketball 14:19.333 --> 14:21.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is sort of an extinct idea. 14:21.233 --> 14:23.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Right. It's an outmoded way to think about it. 14:23.333 --> 14:24.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - It really is. 14:24.733 --> 14:26.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And the centers were kind of being left for dead 14:26.833 --> 14:28.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with the Golden State Warriors. 14:28.333 --> 14:30.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Draymond Green it was about six, six was their center. 14:30.633 --> 14:33.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Small ball's here to stay until, it wasn't. 14:33.700 --> 14:36.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Until Joel Embiid and Giannis Antetokounmpo 14:36.033 --> 14:37.666 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% and Nikola Jokic. 14:37.666 --> 14:39.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And Victor Wembanyama showed up and we're like, 14:39.900 --> 14:42.366 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% what if we just learned how to dribble, pass and shoot too? 14:42.366 --> 14:45.600 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And it turns out being bigger in this sport still helps. 14:45.600 --> 14:47.000 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Even if you're doing that. 14:47.000 --> 14:48.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Even if you're doing, especially if you're doing that. 14:48.566 --> 14:51.266 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Joel Embiid's shot's unblockable. 14:51.266 --> 14:53.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Victor Wembanyama's shots are unblockable, 14:53.833 --> 14:56.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but he can certainly block the other people's shots 14:56.500 --> 14:58.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on the other side of the court. 14:58.200 --> 15:01.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So once, and again, this came from overseas. 15:01.333 --> 15:05.000 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% David Stern's vision in the '90s to globalize the game 15:05.000 --> 15:08.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% helped set in motion like this sort of melting pot. 15:08.900 --> 15:10.266 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% And one of the reasons we're seeing 15:10.266 --> 15:12.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this giant resurrection of big guys in the league 15:12.766 --> 15:15.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is these European youth leagues 15:15.566 --> 15:18.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% are teaching all of their players to be more skilled. 15:18.800 --> 15:20.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Even the big guys, dribble, pass and shoot. 15:20.766 --> 15:22.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Is the change that you're talking about 15:22.533 --> 15:24.000 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% top down or bottom up? 15:24.000 --> 15:25.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Bottom up, in the sense that it's happening 15:25.700 --> 15:27.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% at the player level on the team level, 15:27.400 --> 15:29.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and the league has been transformed as a result? 15:29.666 --> 15:32.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Or speaking of intentionality, 15:32.066 --> 15:34.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% there's an intentionality on the part of the NBA 15:34.066 --> 15:35.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to have the league be transformed. 15:35.666 --> 15:38.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So whether it's David Stern or Adam Silver or whomever, 15:38.466 --> 15:40.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the people in charge of the league are saying, 15:40.133 --> 15:41.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we can't do the same thing over and over. 15:41.666 --> 15:43.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've gotta figure out a new way to think about this. 15:43.100 --> 15:44.633 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - You know, that's a great question. 15:44.633 --> 15:46.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I'm gonna give all the credit to the players. 15:46.866 --> 15:50.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think it's individual players that challenge the medium 15:50.033 --> 15:51.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and have proven, 15:51.633 --> 15:54.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and I always say it's not a peaceful transition of power 15:54.333 --> 15:56.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% from one stylistic regime to the next. 15:56.400 --> 16:00.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Like, Michael had to go through the Pistons. It was bloody. 16:00.000 --> 16:01.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And at the other side, we got a much more 16:01.600 --> 16:04.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% beautiful version of basketball, and he inspired Kobe. 16:04.466 --> 16:07.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And Kobe inspires all these other players 16:07.000 --> 16:08.466 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% we're talking about today. 16:08.466 --> 16:10.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% So I will give full credit 16:10.700 --> 16:14.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to basketball players developing techniques. 16:14.300 --> 16:17.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Whether it's Manu, your beloved Spurs with a Euro step. 16:17.000 --> 16:18.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That wasn't David Stern's idea. 16:18.766 --> 16:20.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% His idea was to get a kid in Argentina 16:20.833 --> 16:22.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to play basketball, which is great. 16:22.366 --> 16:23.700 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Full stop. Yeah. 16:23.700 --> 16:27.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - But I don't think he foresaw the Euro step 16:27.000 --> 16:29.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% or the European big quite like that. 16:29.433 --> 16:30.866 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 16:30.866 --> 16:33.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You mentioned Kobe and particularly Michael Jordan, 16:33.466 --> 16:35.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% you know, in politics sometimes you say, 16:35.633 --> 16:38.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that person who routinely won elections 25 years ago 16:38.466 --> 16:40.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% couldn't get through a primary today 16:40.533 --> 16:42.333 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% the way the world changes. 16:42.333 --> 16:44.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Could Michael Jordan get through a primary today? 16:44.700 --> 16:46.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Oh, hell yeah. 16:46.000 --> 16:47.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Could Kobe get through a primary today? Yes? 16:47.533 --> 16:49.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Yeah, because their defining characteristic 16:49.233 --> 16:51.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% wasn't their actual skillset that we saw manifest. 16:51.966 --> 16:53.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It was their in between the ears stuff. 16:53.833 --> 16:56.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% These guys were the most competitive people. 16:56.000 --> 16:58.200 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% And they were blessed physically. 16:58.200 --> 16:59.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Even though the game has changed, 16:59.766 --> 17:01.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they would still be great today, 17:01.633 --> 17:03.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Kobe would still be great today? 17:03.366 --> 17:04.300 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - A hundred percent. 17:04.300 --> 17:06.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I always push back on that idea 17:06.366 --> 17:08.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that these guys couldn't play with these guys, 17:08.100 --> 17:09.500 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% or vice versa, by the way. 17:09.500 --> 17:11.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I think like Stephen Curry would've made it work. 17:11.733 --> 17:14.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - 25 or 30 years ago would've been great. 17:14.400 --> 17:15.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Yeah. They could've thrived at any time. 17:15.766 --> 17:17.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - All right, and I'm gonna put you on the spot. 17:17.200 --> 17:19.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Who is the best player in the NBA right now? 17:19.200 --> 17:20.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Nikola Jokic. It's not even close. 17:20.700 --> 17:21.966 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - You didn't even hesitate. 17:21.966 --> 17:23.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - He's won three of the last four MVPs. 17:23.266 --> 17:25.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% He almost beat Team USA in the semi-finals 17:25.933 --> 17:28.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% of the Olympic tournament with not a lot of help out there. 17:28.433 --> 17:31.166 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% He is statistically, aesthetically 17:31.166 --> 17:33.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% just so far ahead of the second guy. 17:33.766 --> 17:35.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - So if you could draft anybody 17:35.333 --> 17:37.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% off of any team for a new team, he'd be the one. 17:37.633 --> 17:38.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - It's either him or Wembanyama, 17:38.900 --> 17:40.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% depending on how long into the future. 17:40.500 --> 17:42.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Isn't amazing that Wemby 17:42.100 --> 17:43.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% after just a short time in the league 17:43.933 --> 17:46.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is already on your list of the top two. 17:46.300 --> 17:49.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - He was as hyped as anybody since LeBron James 17:49.033 --> 17:51.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he's over, I think, 17:51.066 --> 17:53.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% achieved what that hype, so far. 17:53.833 --> 17:56.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Can he get the Spurs to a championship 17:56.866 --> 17:58.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and to win, do you think? 17:58.266 --> 17:59.500 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - A hundred percent. 17:59.500 --> 18:00.533 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Do they have enough other people? 18:00.533 --> 18:01.733 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% I mean, you know the Spurs, 18:01.733 --> 18:04.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% you were in fact on the Spurs staff, 18:04.000 --> 18:06.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you were vice president at the Spurs, right, 18:06.233 --> 18:07.066 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a couple of years. 18:07.066 --> 18:08.000 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Right. 18:08.000 --> 18:08.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - You know that team very well. 18:08.800 --> 18:10.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You know, Pop very well. 18:10.800 --> 18:14.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Is that team ready to be there? 18:14.400 --> 18:16.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And is he the reason that they'll get there? 18:16.800 --> 18:18.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - He's the reason they're gonna get there. 18:18.066 --> 18:19.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I think they're, 18:19.333 --> 18:20.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as my friend friend Fran Fraschilla would say 18:20.733 --> 18:22.266 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% they're two years away from being two years away. 18:22.266 --> 18:27.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think they're on path, they're on the trajectory. 18:28.166 --> 18:29.933 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% They are making the baby steps 18:29.933 --> 18:31.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and the steps in this case 18:31.233 --> 18:33.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% are very long strides by their French center. 18:33.600 --> 18:35.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I think they're going to be, 18:35.266 --> 18:37.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% if I had to bet if they're gonna win a championship 18:37.333 --> 18:40.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in the 2030s with Wembanyama, I would bet, yes. 18:40.500 --> 18:41.800 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% This organization is ready. 18:41.800 --> 18:44.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Which two teams are in the finals this year? 18:44.066 --> 18:45.600 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - This year, 18:45.600 --> 18:47.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Boston Celtics are not only the best team in the league, 18:47.700 --> 18:49.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but they have an easier path out of the East. 18:49.866 --> 18:51.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So we'll start with the Celtics. 18:51.533 --> 18:53.666 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% The West is much, much harder. 18:53.666 --> 18:55.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% You have Oklahoma City, you have Denver. 18:56.633 --> 18:57.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'll say Oklahoma City. 18:57.733 --> 18:59.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They're an ascendant young team 18:59.000 --> 19:01.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that is as deep as it gets in the West. 19:01.400 --> 19:02.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But the West is the hardest one to pick. 19:02.933 --> 19:05.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% The Celtics have a much more likely path. 19:05.300 --> 19:06.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Okay. So this is on TV, you know, right? 19:06.966 --> 19:09.800 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% So we have video of you saying Boston and Oklahoma City. 19:09.800 --> 19:11.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - That's right. 19:11.100 --> 19:12.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - We'll come back at the end of the season. 19:12.666 --> 19:14.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% If you're wrong, we'll dunk on you. See what I did there? 19:14.533 --> 19:15.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - I like that. 19:15.366 --> 19:16.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - You like that? Okay. 19:16.333 --> 19:17.600 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% So I've alluded a couple times 19:17.600 --> 19:19.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to the maps and the data and the charts 19:19.833 --> 19:23.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and the way that you visualize statistics and data. 19:23.733 --> 19:26.833 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And it's so additive to your presentation 19:26.833 --> 19:29.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of your theories and thesis in this book. 19:29.533 --> 19:31.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That is in fact your background. 19:31.100 --> 19:32.366 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Yes, that's right. 19:32.366 --> 19:35.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - You did not start out as a sports guy. 19:35.766 --> 19:37.533 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% You went to Penn State, 19:37.533 --> 19:39.033 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% grew up in State College, Pennsylvania. 19:39.033 --> 19:40.733 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% You went to Penn State, and the first job you had out, 19:40.733 --> 19:41.800 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% or one of the first jobs you had out 19:41.800 --> 19:44.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was as a cartographer for FEMA. 19:44.033 --> 19:44.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - That's right. 19:44.933 --> 19:46.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Right. You're a map guy. 19:46.366 --> 19:48.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yes. I'm a map. I'm a cartographer. 19:48.433 --> 19:50.200 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% I got a PhD in geography, 19:50.200 --> 19:52.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% studying cartography and visualization. 19:52.100 --> 19:55.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Taught that in college. You taught at Michigan State. 19:55.233 --> 19:56.066 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Yes. I taught at Michigan State. 19:56.066 --> 19:57.466 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Taught at Harvard. 19:57.466 --> 20:00.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And you taught that stuff. Not this stuff. 20:00.600 --> 20:02.433 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - No, but it is, yeah. 20:02.433 --> 20:04.400 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The only reason that people let me talk about basketball 20:04.400 --> 20:06.266 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% is because I started visualizing shooting data 20:06.266 --> 20:08.500 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% in the same way that I'd been making thematic maps 20:08.500 --> 20:11.900 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% of things like floodplains or public health data 20:11.900 --> 20:13.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and teaching students for that. 20:13.533 --> 20:15.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it's all spatial data, Evan. 20:15.500 --> 20:18.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The science of where, you know, knows no bounds. 20:18.700 --> 20:21.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - But obviously, you cared a lot about basketball. 20:21.100 --> 20:22.200 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - I love basketball. 20:22.200 --> 20:23.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - You played? 20:23.566 --> 20:25.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh, of course. Yeah, I still play. It's the best. 20:25.733 --> 20:27.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I know you're sitting, but you're tall. 20:27.200 --> 20:28.233 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Yeah, I'm tall. 20:28.233 --> 20:29.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And you are a gym rat? 20:29.500 --> 20:30.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - I love it. Yeah. 20:30.833 --> 20:33.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I started having the ideas for my shot charts 20:33.500 --> 20:36.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% when I realized I was much better at shooting 20:36.033 --> 20:37.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% from one side of the court than the other. 20:37.900 --> 20:39.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Interesting. That drove this whole thing. 20:39.366 --> 20:41.500 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - And I knew there was this spatial component 20:41.500 --> 20:43.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% to all of my favorite players' greatness too. 20:43.900 --> 20:45.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I knew that Kobe liked these spots, 20:45.366 --> 20:46.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% but Dirk liked that spot. 20:46.766 --> 20:48.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then Timmy liked the left block and bank it in. 20:48.933 --> 20:50.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And I wanted to see that. 20:50.266 --> 20:52.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And so the genesis of my career in basketball 20:52.366 --> 20:56.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% was trying to reveal these idiosyncrasies 20:56.200 --> 20:58.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are at the heart of shooting performances. 20:58.533 --> 21:00.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And nobody in the discourse was doing that. 21:00.066 --> 21:02.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I saw an opportunity to do it with my training. 21:02.733 --> 21:06.100 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% So mapping players, especially their scoring was my entry. 21:06.100 --> 21:07.100 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Were you a good player? 21:07.100 --> 21:08.533 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - No, of course not. 21:08.533 --> 21:11.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Right, so the the old adage, those who can't teach. 21:11.100 --> 21:13.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, those who can't teach or do stats. 21:13.400 --> 21:15.366 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - That works out. 21:15.366 --> 21:16.666 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% So you're now running the business 21:16.666 --> 21:18.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% of Sports Institute at the University of Texas. 21:18.800 --> 21:20.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And you teach at the McCombs School of Business 21:20.433 --> 21:21.966 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% a class on sports analytics. 21:21.966 --> 21:23.500 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Correct. 21:23.500 --> 21:25.066 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% - So, someone who loves this conversation or loves this book 21:25.066 --> 21:27.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and wants to go through an entire semester 21:27.900 --> 21:29.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% of conversations like this, has the opportunity 21:29.733 --> 21:33.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to sit in Professor Goldsberry, Doctor, PhD, 21:33.266 --> 21:35.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Dr. Goldsberry's class and talk about this stuff. 21:35.733 --> 21:36.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - It's great for me 21:36.900 --> 21:38.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% to be back in a university setting. 21:38.366 --> 21:41.400 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I spent my entire twenties wasting away getting a PhD 21:41.400 --> 21:42.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and I'm using it again 21:42.800 --> 21:44.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% here at the University of Texas in Austin. 21:44.900 --> 21:48.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But in all seriousness, like I want to give back 21:48.000 --> 21:49.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and I want to help students 21:49.333 --> 21:52.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% who want careers in sports have a pathway. 21:52.233 --> 21:53.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I know that your own son 21:53.733 --> 21:56.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% is very interested in sports and in basketball. 21:56.066 --> 21:59.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And one of the things that these students encounter 21:59.366 --> 22:00.733 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% is how do I do that? 22:00.733 --> 22:02.100 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% There's no law school. 22:02.100 --> 22:04.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% There's no business school for sports, there's no. 22:04.800 --> 22:06.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, you can't get a PhD in basketball, right? 22:06.866 --> 22:08.000 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Not yet. 22:08.000 --> 22:09.900 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% But it's like, it's more valuable 22:09.900 --> 22:11.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% than a PhD in a lot of fields. 22:11.166 --> 22:12.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - But I want to come back to "Moneyball." 22:12.733 --> 22:16.400 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% You know, I actually dogeared in my reading of this book, 22:16.400 --> 22:19.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% the chapter that referred to Michael Lewis's famous book, 22:19.166 --> 22:20.800 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% which became a famous movie, 22:20.800 --> 22:22.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% you know, with Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill 22:22.933 --> 22:24.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I've seen many, many times 22:24.333 --> 22:27.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it really does change my thinking about, 22:27.166 --> 22:29.333 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% it changed everyone's thinking I think about that game. 22:29.333 --> 22:32.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And the reality is there is a discipline here, right? 22:32.233 --> 22:33.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% It's not a one-off thing. 22:33.400 --> 22:34.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% You're not the only one who can do, 22:34.833 --> 22:36.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I mean, theoretically, you can create 22:36.933 --> 22:39.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% a whole bunch of Kirk Goldsberrys 22:39.100 --> 22:40.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a consequence of this focus. 22:40.900 --> 22:42.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Yeah, "Moneyball" to me isn't about 22:42.600 --> 22:45.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% finding a better batting order for the Oakland A's. 22:45.133 --> 22:46.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% It's more deep than that. 22:46.400 --> 22:48.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It's about the irreversible infiltration 22:48.700 --> 22:50.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% of financial thinking 22:50.166 --> 22:53.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and business school thinking into sports reasoning. 22:53.100 --> 22:56.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. 22:56.400 --> 22:58.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Applying a different set of frames. 22:58.800 --> 23:02.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - It was a smarter way to frame 23:02.433 --> 23:05.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% the endeavor of building pro sports teams, period. 23:05.833 --> 23:07.333 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Yeah. Yeah. 23:07.333 --> 23:10.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - And it's the best sports book, probably ever written, 23:10.266 --> 23:12.033 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% at least in the 21st century. 23:12.033 --> 23:13.500 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% It's a masterpiece. 23:13.500 --> 23:15.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And one of the few books that we can point to 23:15.700 --> 23:17.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and say that book started a movement 23:17.566 --> 23:19.500 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that changed something 23:19.500 --> 23:21.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% really significant in American culture. 23:21.000 --> 23:23.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - And as movies about sports go, to be honest with you, 23:23.633 --> 23:25.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% it's very accessible for the average person. 23:25.666 --> 23:28.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - We watch it in my class. It's a very seminal moment. 23:28.200 --> 23:31.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It captures this really interesting intersection 23:31.200 --> 23:33.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% of tech, business and sports 23:33.200 --> 23:35.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that could have only happened in the early 2000s. 23:35.066 --> 23:36.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - So we just got a couple minutes left. 23:36.600 --> 23:38.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know I care about journalism and I know you do, as well. 23:38.433 --> 23:40.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I want to ask you about sports journalism, 23:40.066 --> 23:41.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the state of sports journalism. 23:41.200 --> 23:43.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% You had logged time at ESPN 23:43.066 --> 23:47.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and also at the late lamented, dear departed Grantland, 23:47.133 --> 23:48.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% right, which a lot of people 23:48.200 --> 23:49.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who care about sports journalism 23:49.533 --> 23:50.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% think was like this great thing 23:50.833 --> 23:53.633 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and we're sorry not to have it with us anymore. 23:53.633 --> 23:56.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% What has happened to this? 23:56.533 --> 23:57.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% What has happened to sports journalism? 23:57.933 --> 23:59.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, it feels like everything 23:59.100 --> 24:01.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is just less than it used to be. 24:01.666 --> 24:03.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, I think social media happens. 24:03.600 --> 24:05.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - I mean, Sports Illustrated may as well be dead. 24:05.600 --> 24:07.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Pour one out for Sports Illustrated, right? 24:07.200 --> 24:09.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Sports Illustrated has had a hard time. 24:09.333 --> 24:12.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Grantland, which was very good in the 2010s is gone. 24:12.500 --> 24:14.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You know, The Ringer's doing a very good job. 24:14.966 --> 24:17.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% The Athletic is doing a good job. 24:17.600 --> 24:21.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% But it's not as fun as it used to be for a lot of us. 24:21.133 --> 24:22.066 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Why is that? 24:22.066 --> 24:24.600 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - I think the social media 24:24.600 --> 24:26.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% sort of toxicity has affected it. 24:26.833 --> 24:30.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I think the algorithm has challenged people 24:30.666 --> 24:33.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to be more extreme versions of themselves. 24:33.666 --> 24:36.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And for those of us who are like analytical and nuanced, 24:36.600 --> 24:37.800 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that's not as popular. 24:37.800 --> 24:38.733 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - Not my thing, right. 24:38.733 --> 24:40.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, not on TikTok, at least. 24:40.300 --> 24:43.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So that I think is the biggest thing is social media. 24:43.133 --> 24:45.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% But ultimately a lot of my friends in the business 24:45.200 --> 24:48.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% have had a hard time landing jobs or staying with jobs 24:48.600 --> 24:52.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% because it's just the rug is pulled out from you 24:52.300 --> 24:53.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% every few years in one way or another. 24:53.800 --> 24:55.266 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - I wonder if like politics 24:55.266 --> 24:57.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where the people we used to cover as journalists 24:57.400 --> 24:59.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% have figured out that they no longer need us 24:59.033 --> 25:00.166 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% to get their message out. 25:00.166 --> 25:01.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% They can create their own channels. 25:01.700 --> 25:03.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% If that's also happened to some degree 25:03.600 --> 25:05.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% as individuals and teams figure out 25:05.700 --> 25:07.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they can avoid the media asking hard questions 25:07.966 --> 25:10.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and they can just get their content out to people directly. 25:10.533 --> 25:11.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Oh, a hundred percent. 25:11.466 --> 25:12.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% JJ Reddick, Draymond Green, 25:12.600 --> 25:14.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% there's no shortage of NBA players. 25:14.100 --> 25:15.400 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% The Kelce brothers 25:15.400 --> 25:17.566 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% just signed a hundred million dollar deal. 25:17.566 --> 25:21.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And I think athletes taking charge of the narrative 25:21.233 --> 25:22.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is a great development. 25:22.833 --> 25:24.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But in a zero sum game, 25:24.200 --> 25:26.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I think there's some consequences to that too. 25:26.800 --> 25:28.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% There's only so much to go around. 25:28.233 --> 25:30.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And as these voices get a larger and larger share, 25:30.700 --> 25:32.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whether that's better or worse, 25:32.200 --> 25:33.900 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% there's just only so many jobs 25:33.900 --> 25:35.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% for those of us in sports journalism. 25:35.966 --> 25:37.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - Well, at least we have you. 25:37.166 --> 25:38.500 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Well, I'll still do it. 25:38.500 --> 25:39.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Listen, I love this book. 25:39.633 --> 25:41.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And I think you're such a smart guy 25:41.366 --> 25:42.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and you make this stuff come alive 25:42.933 --> 25:44.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% in ways that nobody else does. 25:44.233 --> 25:45.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So I want to wish you great success with this. 25:45.733 --> 25:47.033 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% I know it'll be a big hit. 25:47.033 --> 25:48.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Everybody, give Kirk Goldsberry a big hand. 25:48.466 --> 25:49.433 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Thank you, guys. 25:49.433 --> 25:50.200 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - [Evan] Thank you very much. 25:50.200 --> 25:51.133 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - Appreciate you. 25:51.133 --> 25:51.866 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Appreciate you being here. 25:51.866 --> 25:53.333 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Thank you. 25:53.333 --> 25:55.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - [Evan] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:55.933 --> 26:00.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 26:00.033 --> 26:02.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to find invitations to interviews, 26:02.100 --> 26:04.366 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Q&A's with our audience and guests, 26:04.366 --> 26:06.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:06.600 --> 26:08.500 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - I do think somebody will score a hundred points, 26:08.500 --> 26:10.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in part because of this heliocentric trend. 26:10.966 --> 26:12.700 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% We're seeing seventies, eighties. 26:12.700 --> 26:14.266 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And we're seeing faster games 26:14.266 --> 26:16.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we're seeing defenses just stretched to the limit. 26:16.900 --> 26:18.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As more and more people 26:18.433 --> 26:20.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% can shoot the three point shot further and further out, 26:20.533 --> 26:22.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that's gonna be the reason 26:22.633 --> 26:25.266 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% that I think somebody's gonna do that in the next 20 years. 26:25.266 --> 26:26.766 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% Support for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:26.766 --> 26:28.466 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% comes from Hilco Partners, 26:28.466 --> 26:30.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% a Texas government affairs consultancy. 26:30.566 --> 26:32.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 26:32.166 --> 26:35.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing 26:35.366 --> 26:38.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication 26:38.700 --> 26:39.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% EllerGroup.com 26:39.900 --> 26:41.866 align:left position:35% line:5% size:55% (soft music)