1 00:00:00,866 --> 00:00:01,633 Support for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:01,633 --> 00:00:03,333 comes from Hilco Partners, 3 00:00:03,333 --> 00:00:05,433 a Texas government affairs consultancy. 4 00:00:05,433 --> 00:00:07,033 Claire and Carl Stuart, 5 00:00:07,033 --> 00:00:10,233 Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing 6 00:00:10,233 --> 00:00:13,400 in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication 7 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:14,600 EllerGroup.com 8 00:00:15,266 --> 00:00:16,566 - I'm Evan Smith. 9 00:00:16,566 --> 00:00:19,533 He's the LeBron James of basketball analytics, 10 00:00:19,533 --> 00:00:22,366 a former NBA analyst at ESPN, 11 00:00:22,366 --> 00:00:25,700 the former chief analytics consultant for USA Basketball, 12 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:28,233 and the author of a great new book about the game, 13 00:00:28,233 --> 00:00:29,666 "Hoop Atlas: 14 00:00:29,666 --> 00:00:32,766 Mapping the Remarkable Transformation of the NBA." 15 00:00:32,766 --> 00:00:35,666 He's Kirk Goldsberry. This is "Overheard." 16 00:00:36,933 --> 00:00:39,900 A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 17 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:41,300 You really turn the conversation 18 00:00:41,300 --> 00:00:44,033 around about what leadership should be about. 19 00:00:44,033 --> 00:00:45,400 Are we blowing this? 20 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,100 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 21 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:49,133 by giving into the attention junkie? 22 00:00:49,133 --> 00:00:51,533 As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 23 00:00:51,533 --> 00:00:54,366 to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 24 00:00:54,366 --> 00:00:56,000 This is "Overheard." 25 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,966 (audience applauds) 26 00:01:00,266 --> 00:01:01,833 Kirk Goldsberry, welcome. Good to see you. 27 00:01:01,833 --> 00:01:03,566 - It's great to be here, Evan. Thanks for having me. 28 00:01:03,566 --> 00:01:06,300 - Thank you very much for being here. I love this book. 29 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:07,666 - Thanks. 30 00:01:07,666 --> 00:01:09,266 - But I'm trying to understand the difference 31 00:01:09,266 --> 00:01:10,633 between this book and your last one. 32 00:01:10,633 --> 00:01:12,533 So you wrote a bestselling book about the NBA, 33 00:01:12,533 --> 00:01:15,700 arguably about the modern era of the NBA, as well, 34 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:17,800 called Sprawlball," this was in 2020. 35 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,733 - Yeah. 36 00:01:18,733 --> 00:01:20,166 - Here we are, four years later. 37 00:01:20,166 --> 00:01:21,766 We have another book, surely will be a bestseller, 38 00:01:21,766 --> 00:01:23,666 about the modern era of the NBA. 39 00:01:23,666 --> 00:01:25,400 Why did we need another? 40 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,700 - Well, the first book really focused and zeroed in 41 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:31,766 on how the three point shot and analytics 42 00:01:31,766 --> 00:01:35,733 sort of converged to update the look and feel of basketball. 43 00:01:35,733 --> 00:01:37,800 And I wouldn't say overlooked 44 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,133 the impact of individual players, but in this one, 45 00:01:41,133 --> 00:01:44,266 I really wanted to focus almost like a jazz historian would, 46 00:01:44,266 --> 00:01:47,133 on how the individual superstars 47 00:01:47,133 --> 00:01:49,433 who are extremely influential in our league 48 00:01:49,433 --> 00:01:52,233 reshaped basketball with different techniques 49 00:01:52,233 --> 00:01:55,033 and approaches and triumphs that ended up changing 50 00:01:55,033 --> 00:01:57,166 how we look at greatness in pro hoops. 51 00:01:57,166 --> 00:01:58,800 - Well, and you actually, in fairness, 52 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,466 you telegraph that in the name of the book. 53 00:02:00,466 --> 00:02:01,866 The book is called "Hoop Atlas." 54 00:02:01,866 --> 00:02:03,433 And it's this great play on words 55 00:02:03,433 --> 00:02:05,266 because an atlas is a collection of maps 56 00:02:05,266 --> 00:02:06,866 and there are many maps. 57 00:02:06,866 --> 00:02:10,100 You use mapping to visualize data in this book, 58 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:11,400 to tell the story of the NBA. 59 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,933 We'll come to that in a bit. 60 00:02:12,933 --> 00:02:15,500 But also you're referring to Atlas as in Greek mythology, 61 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:19,033 holding the weight of the heavens on his shoulders. 62 00:02:19,033 --> 00:02:21,433 And the reality is that you say, very clearly in this book, 63 00:02:21,433 --> 00:02:23,333 there are certain players in professional basketball 64 00:02:23,333 --> 00:02:26,533 who hold the weight of the sport on their shoulders. 65 00:02:26,533 --> 00:02:28,366 - Right, and we start with Michael Jordan. 66 00:02:28,366 --> 00:02:31,333 And ironically, torturing that metaphor, 67 00:02:31,333 --> 00:02:34,966 start with a famous shrug in the 1992 finals 68 00:02:34,966 --> 00:02:37,600 when he made six threes and shrugged at the camera. 69 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,066 And we call that "Atlas shrugged." 70 00:02:39,066 --> 00:02:42,000 I don't necessarily endorse the ideology there, 71 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,033 but it was torturing the Atlas metaphor even further. 72 00:02:44,033 --> 00:02:46,600 But the larger point is, yeah, pro basketball, 73 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,933 more than pro football, more than baseball, 74 00:02:48,933 --> 00:02:50,400 more than any other sport, 75 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,666 really looks at these individual players 76 00:02:52,666 --> 00:02:56,600 to show us the next step in the basketball evolution. 77 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,966 And Jordan really modernized the game after Magic. 78 00:02:59,966 --> 00:03:02,000 And Larry had brought it to new heights. 79 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,433 - Of course, I don't want to challenge you on this, 80 00:03:03,433 --> 00:03:05,500 because you're an expert and I'm a mere amateur, 81 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:07,666 but, today in baseball, 82 00:03:07,666 --> 00:03:09,766 whether it's Aaron Judge or Shohei Ohtani, 83 00:03:09,766 --> 00:03:12,800 there are sort of in that sport players 84 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,700 who are carrying the weight of the game on their shoulders. 85 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,833 Like we could spend probably 30 minutes talking about this. 86 00:03:16,833 --> 00:03:18,300 - Yeah. 87 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:19,633 - But I'll stipulate your point, that in basketball, 88 00:03:19,633 --> 00:03:22,433 certain people have been elevated, 89 00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:24,166 or have elevated the sport themselves 90 00:03:24,166 --> 00:03:27,200 in a way that calls them out, deserves being called out. 91 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,433 - Yeah, and they almost deformed the medium. 92 00:03:29,433 --> 00:03:30,933 They reform the medium. 93 00:03:30,933 --> 00:03:33,333 Stephen Curry's another great example, 94 00:03:33,333 --> 00:03:35,266 who challenges what greatness looks like. 95 00:03:35,266 --> 00:03:37,266 - Well, and in fact, if you watch the Olympics, 96 00:03:37,266 --> 00:03:38,500 I know you did, and I did. 97 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:40,433 We talked about this after that famous, 98 00:03:40,433 --> 00:03:43,033 now I think we'll be infamous last game, 99 00:03:43,033 --> 00:03:44,700 the gold medal round, right? 100 00:03:44,700 --> 00:03:45,633 Where they won the gold medal 101 00:03:45,633 --> 00:03:47,633 where he hit three after three. 102 00:03:47,633 --> 00:03:50,400 That most impossible of all threes, 103 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,300 over two guys, kind of on his back foot, right, in the end. 104 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,566 He is one of one, not one of many. 105 00:03:57,566 --> 00:03:58,966 - And he changed the sport forever. 106 00:03:58,966 --> 00:04:01,300 We're here in Austin, if you go to a playground 107 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:03,066 or a youth basketball game tomorrow, 108 00:04:03,066 --> 00:04:05,300 you'll see a bunch of kids shooting threes 109 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:07,600 in a way that when I was young, we weren't doing that. 110 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,766 That's what I'm saying. These people are very influential. 111 00:04:10,766 --> 00:04:13,700 Charles Barkley famously said, they're not role models, 112 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:16,500 but certainly to young hoopers, they are. 113 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:18,633 And Stephen Curry, and what a moment, by the way. 114 00:04:18,633 --> 00:04:20,000 - [Evan] Yeah. 115 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,333 - Reminding the world that Americans are still here 116 00:04:21,333 --> 00:04:23,400 in the greatest sport on earth, basketball. 117 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,200 But doing it with his stylistic innovation, 118 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,200 which is just self-created threes in many cases, 119 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,833 dribbling into threes, 120 00:04:31,833 --> 00:04:34,533 against the best defenders the other team has to offer. 121 00:04:34,533 --> 00:04:35,966 There's nothing you can do to stop it. 122 00:04:35,966 --> 00:04:38,800 And, you know, he won the Serbia game too for us 123 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,966 in the semi-finals against Nikola Jokic, who many consider 124 00:04:41,966 --> 00:04:44,533 to be the best player on the planet right now. 125 00:04:44,533 --> 00:04:48,466 But again, Stephen is unlike any superstar we've ever had. 126 00:04:48,466 --> 00:04:50,200 And he sort of portends 127 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,766 a new kind of jump shooting superstar 128 00:04:52,766 --> 00:04:54,466 that we didn't really consider beforehand. 129 00:04:54,466 --> 00:04:56,666 - There's something about him, again, expert, amateur, 130 00:04:56,666 --> 00:04:57,900 but I want to just observe, 131 00:04:57,900 --> 00:04:59,400 watching that game that occurred to me. 132 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,300 So many of our sports heroes and so many in basketball, 133 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,766 their confidence in themselves borders on arrogance, right? 134 00:05:06,766 --> 00:05:08,400 And that's part of their brands. 135 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,300 He seems to be the opposite of that. 136 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:12,500 He seems like a very humble, 137 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:15,633 I mean, I understand, he did this, I get it. 138 00:05:15,633 --> 00:05:18,600 But he nonetheless seems like not cut from exactly 139 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,233 the same cloth as the rest of these guys. 140 00:05:20,233 --> 00:05:21,466 Is that a right read on him? 141 00:05:21,466 --> 00:05:23,133 - Yeah, I think he's very confident. 142 00:05:23,133 --> 00:05:25,533 And when I was with the Spurs in the front office 143 00:05:25,533 --> 00:05:27,000 and he would kick our butts, 144 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,800 he seemed arrogant to me at those times. 145 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,066 (audience laughs) 146 00:05:30,066 --> 00:05:32,533 But, you know, when I got for this book 147 00:05:32,533 --> 00:05:36,933 to get a lot of time with Stephen in his private workouts 148 00:05:36,933 --> 00:05:40,533 in the off season, the dude is a scientist. 149 00:05:40,533 --> 00:05:43,800 There's nobody works harder than him in the NBA. 150 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,233 - And everything is intentional. 151 00:05:45,233 --> 00:05:47,166 - And it's very scientific work. 152 00:05:47,166 --> 00:05:48,666 Yeah, it's very intentional 153 00:05:48,666 --> 00:05:51,400 how he looks at his one-on-one workouts. 154 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,366 And one of the reasons he's so great and so unprecedented 155 00:05:54,366 --> 00:05:58,066 is he's taken practice and made it perfect 156 00:05:58,066 --> 00:06:00,700 to turn the traditional phrase. 157 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:02,000 He is so smart, 158 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,166 and his trainer, Brandon Payne, 159 00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:05,566 who is a great character in this book, 160 00:06:05,566 --> 00:06:07,500 helped me understand what it takes 161 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:10,400 to develop an unprecedented 30 foot shot 162 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,200 that would sort of challenge basketball. 163 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,266 - So, let's talk about the big takeaways from this book 164 00:06:15,266 --> 00:06:17,000 because I think, you know, somebody else reading it 165 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,766 might have taken away certain other things, 166 00:06:18,766 --> 00:06:20,600 but I was struck by a couple things, 167 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,700 so I'm gonna call those out. 168 00:06:21,700 --> 00:06:23,600 First of all, the degree to which 169 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,233 the offensive game in basketball 170 00:06:26,233 --> 00:06:30,366 is so much more efficient today than it used to be. 171 00:06:30,366 --> 00:06:31,266 - Right. 172 00:06:31,266 --> 00:06:32,566 - Right? Talk about that. 173 00:06:32,566 --> 00:06:33,866 That seems to be a theme throughout this book. 174 00:06:33,866 --> 00:06:35,466 - Yeah, so a few things happen. 175 00:06:35,466 --> 00:06:37,566 Most important, I would say in 2003, 176 00:06:37,566 --> 00:06:40,200 a book called "Moneyball" comes out 177 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,766 and really challenges all pro sports 178 00:06:42,766 --> 00:06:44,933 to get their stuff together, so to speak. 179 00:06:44,933 --> 00:06:48,300 And really think about how financial reasoning 180 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,866 can influence or help us understand performances 181 00:06:50,866 --> 00:06:52,833 on the field or on the court. 182 00:06:52,833 --> 00:06:54,633 Obviously, that started in baseball, 183 00:06:54,633 --> 00:06:57,000 but then front offices start to care 184 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,133 about the word efficiency a lot more than they had. 185 00:07:00,133 --> 00:07:04,200 And really new rubrics emerge to judge players. 186 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,166 - Right. Metrics change. 187 00:07:05,166 --> 00:07:06,700 - Metrics changed. 188 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:10,200 And the sort of congruence between statistical efficiency 189 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,533 and what we would consider greatness started to align more. 190 00:07:13,533 --> 00:07:15,466 - So the performance of these players 191 00:07:15,466 --> 00:07:17,266 that we're seeing has really been engineered. 192 00:07:17,266 --> 00:07:21,066 - Correct, and sometimes by the players themselves. 193 00:07:21,066 --> 00:07:24,433 This is not just like Billy Beane and in some back room, 194 00:07:24,433 --> 00:07:25,933 like running numbers. 195 00:07:25,933 --> 00:07:27,666 The players themselves, 196 00:07:27,666 --> 00:07:29,866 famously, James Harden, I would argue, 197 00:07:29,866 --> 00:07:32,733 really epitomizes becoming super savvy 198 00:07:32,733 --> 00:07:36,033 about how my performance filters through these numbers. 199 00:07:36,033 --> 00:07:38,066 - Right, now, let me take a short walk from that 200 00:07:38,066 --> 00:07:39,633 and observe as others. 201 00:07:39,633 --> 00:07:41,900 I was talking to a bunch of basketball fans 202 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:43,333 knowing I was gonna come and see you. 203 00:07:43,333 --> 00:07:45,266 And I said, what would you ask Kirk Goldsberry? 204 00:07:45,266 --> 00:07:47,900 And a consistent question I heard back was, 205 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:51,566 people are scoring routinely 50, 60, 70 points in a game. 206 00:07:51,566 --> 00:07:52,666 That didn't use to happen. 207 00:07:52,666 --> 00:07:53,933 - Right. 208 00:07:53,933 --> 00:07:55,300 - Now it's sort of, we kind of go, well. 209 00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaking of shrugging, we kind of go, 210 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,200 oh, they scored 60 or 70 points. 211 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,800 Is that a byproduct of offensive efficiency? 212 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,133 - It's a byproduct of an unending quest for efficiency 213 00:08:04,133 --> 00:08:07,566 coaches, players and front offices. 214 00:08:07,566 --> 00:08:08,933 And in the book we talk about 215 00:08:08,933 --> 00:08:11,400 a new movement called heliocentrism, 216 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,566 which is a new word for an old concept in hoops. 217 00:08:14,566 --> 00:08:16,200 Like when Wilt Chamberlain played, 218 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,233 the strategy of his team was 219 00:08:18,233 --> 00:08:20,166 "Duck. Get it to Wilt, and get out of the way." 220 00:08:20,166 --> 00:08:21,266 - Right. Right. 221 00:08:21,266 --> 00:08:22,666 - That's still the strategy, 222 00:08:22,666 --> 00:08:24,666 but we're seeing it from different kinds of players, 223 00:08:24,666 --> 00:08:26,166 not old-school post-up bigs 224 00:08:26,166 --> 00:08:28,066 like Wilt or Bill Russell or Kareem. 225 00:08:28,066 --> 00:08:29,800 Now it's the Stephen, Donovan, 226 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,066 Mitchell, James Harden, Luka Doncic, 227 00:08:32,066 --> 00:08:35,300 just using possession after possession. 228 00:08:35,300 --> 00:08:37,500 And just racking up crazy totals. 229 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:38,633 Not because they're better 230 00:08:38,633 --> 00:08:40,300 than Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, 231 00:08:40,300 --> 00:08:41,966 but because they're taking more shots 232 00:08:41,966 --> 00:08:43,766 and using more possessions than those guys. 233 00:08:43,766 --> 00:08:44,866 - It's also the case, I think, 234 00:08:44,866 --> 00:08:46,300 and you tell me if this is right, 235 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:47,933 that there are not really teams 236 00:08:47,933 --> 00:08:50,766 with one player and four stiffs on the court anymore. 237 00:08:50,766 --> 00:08:51,700 - Right. 238 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:53,200 - There are a lot more teams 239 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,333 that have a number of people you could pass the ball to 240 00:08:54,333 --> 00:08:55,800 with confidence are gonna score. 241 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:57,766 - Oh yeah. So that's another great point, Evan. 242 00:08:57,766 --> 00:09:00,766 Like, the NBA is generally 500 people at any given time, 243 00:09:00,766 --> 00:09:03,733 and that group of 500 has never been so skilled 244 00:09:03,733 --> 00:09:06,900 and never been so talented, particularly on offense, 245 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:09,366 and even more specifically, shooting the ball. 246 00:09:09,366 --> 00:09:13,533 And so offenses are spread out and everybody's threatening. 247 00:09:13,533 --> 00:09:15,833 Like, the coaches are chess masters now. 248 00:09:15,833 --> 00:09:19,633 And every team decorates the court with dangerous threats 249 00:09:19,633 --> 00:09:21,900 that make some of the stars' jobs even easier 250 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:24,300 'cause defenses have never been this thinned out. 251 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:25,800 - Right, so on the question of offense, 252 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,900 a second takeaway that I got from this book 253 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:30,366 was the dominance of the corner three, 254 00:09:30,366 --> 00:09:34,200 as not just any three, but the corner three specifically, 255 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,500 as a component of the modern game. 256 00:09:37,500 --> 00:09:39,866 And again, if you watch the Olympics, you saw this. 257 00:09:39,866 --> 00:09:44,766 I'm amazed at how often you see a shooter in the corner 258 00:09:44,766 --> 00:09:47,000 put up a three and you think yourself, 259 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,433 that's gonna go in, right? 260 00:09:48,433 --> 00:09:51,066 And again, maybe I'm wrong about this, 261 00:09:51,066 --> 00:09:53,800 but that didn't used to seem to be the case, right? 262 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,233 - No. 263 00:09:55,233 --> 00:09:57,066 So Bruce Bowen in San Antonio about 20 years ago, 264 00:09:57,066 --> 00:09:59,400 really started to define this new archetype 265 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,566 of a player, a 3-and-D player. 266 00:10:01,566 --> 00:10:03,500 And Gregg Popovich recognized 267 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:06,100 that by stationing this guy in the corner, 268 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,266 Tim Duncan got harassed less on the other side of the court 269 00:10:09,266 --> 00:10:10,533 when he was posting on. 270 00:10:10,533 --> 00:10:12,600 And so what happened is everybody followed suit. 271 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:13,800 It's a copycat league. 272 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,966 But the corner three, I would argue, 273 00:10:15,966 --> 00:10:18,466 is the most sort of prototypical element 274 00:10:18,466 --> 00:10:20,366 of the analytics revolution in any sport. 275 00:10:20,366 --> 00:10:21,866 - How's that? 276 00:10:21,866 --> 00:10:24,033 - Because it's called the smartest shot in basketball. 277 00:10:24,033 --> 00:10:26,500 It's certainly associated with the "Moneyball" movement. 278 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:28,966 And when you look at the math, 279 00:10:28,966 --> 00:10:31,500 it is more efficient than layups 280 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:33,066 for a lot of players in the NBA. 281 00:10:33,066 --> 00:10:36,133 - So it's not harder to hit a corner three than it is 282 00:10:36,133 --> 00:10:38,933 to hit a three from the center of the three point line? 283 00:10:38,933 --> 00:10:42,400 - So it is harder for some of us, but what happens is. 284 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:43,700 - Some of us, yes. 285 00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:46,233 I will stipulate it would be harder for me. 286 00:10:46,233 --> 00:10:47,633 That's fine. Yeah. Right. 287 00:10:47,633 --> 00:10:49,300 But I mean, I'm just looking at the angle of it 288 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:50,733 and I'm thinking there's a whole bunch of things 289 00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:51,933 that could go wrong there. 290 00:10:51,933 --> 00:10:53,200 - Yeah, so a lot of people are like, 291 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:54,333 oh, that shot's a little bit shorter, 292 00:10:54,333 --> 00:10:55,966 that's why it's so efficient. 293 00:10:55,966 --> 00:10:57,100 That's kind of true. 294 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:58,700 But what's really happening, Evan, 295 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:00,933 is teams are putting better and better shooters over there 296 00:11:00,933 --> 00:11:02,866 and they're designing offensive sets 297 00:11:02,866 --> 00:11:05,000 so that those shots, when they happen, 298 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,800 are almost always ideal catch and shoot. 299 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,800 The guy's got his feet set and he's got a clean look 300 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,233 and there's nobody there. 301 00:11:12,233 --> 00:11:14,433 So a lot of the shots above the break are polluted 302 00:11:14,433 --> 00:11:17,266 by unassisted attempts and all this technicalities, 303 00:11:17,266 --> 00:11:19,366 but ultimately, it's good shooters 304 00:11:19,366 --> 00:11:21,833 taking clean shots in a great spot. 305 00:11:21,833 --> 00:11:23,800 - So again, taking a short walk from this, 306 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,766 are colleges and high schools 307 00:11:25,766 --> 00:11:29,300 seeing the emergence of the corner three 308 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:31,933 as not something that you add to the menu, 309 00:11:31,933 --> 00:11:34,066 but it's a staple of the menu of skills 310 00:11:34,066 --> 00:11:36,000 and therefore we're beginning to see 311 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,566 that become more of a feature of the college game 312 00:11:38,566 --> 00:11:39,400 and of the high school game? 313 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:40,933 - A hundred percent. 314 00:11:40,933 --> 00:11:42,866 And it's a great example of the sort of trickle down, 315 00:11:42,866 --> 00:11:44,600 sort of stylistic economics 316 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,333 that the Currys and the Bowens and the Popovich's do. 317 00:11:47,333 --> 00:11:49,433 That you influence the game at the top, eventually. 318 00:11:49,433 --> 00:11:51,500 - Well, if you want to get into the NBA as a college player, 319 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:52,566 you better have a quarter three. 320 00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:53,900 - A hundred percent. 321 00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:55,133 - Now, and again, some number of years ago 322 00:11:55,133 --> 00:11:56,300 that might not have been the case. 323 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:57,866 - Yeah, and we talk about some guys 324 00:11:57,866 --> 00:12:00,200 who were already in the NBA and have become a lot wealthier 325 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,566 or extended their careers, 326 00:12:01,566 --> 00:12:03,833 guys like Al Horford or Brook Lopez, 327 00:12:03,833 --> 00:12:06,366 who were not shooting threes in college, 328 00:12:06,366 --> 00:12:09,366 but as they entered their prime and post-prime 329 00:12:09,366 --> 00:12:10,866 have extended their careers 330 00:12:10,866 --> 00:12:13,333 and become NBA champions with that exact shot. 331 00:12:13,333 --> 00:12:14,533 - They had to backfill it. 332 00:12:14,533 --> 00:12:15,466 - They had to backfill it. Exactly. 333 00:12:15,466 --> 00:12:17,433 - Okay, so you mentioned Jokic. 334 00:12:17,433 --> 00:12:19,600 I mean, I am a Spurs fan. 335 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,700 My house is a house full of Spurs fans, right. 336 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:23,900 I'll acknowledge that, cop to that. 337 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:25,333 You know, we are Team Wemby. 338 00:12:25,333 --> 00:12:26,700 - Yes. 339 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:29,166 - All day long, twice on Sunday, we are Team Wemby. 340 00:12:29,166 --> 00:12:31,300 It pained me to see Wemby 341 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:33,900 playing for a team other than team USA, 342 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:35,566 because Wemby is an international player 343 00:12:35,566 --> 00:12:37,000 who's come to play here. 344 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,666 And there are many of those, Jokic. 345 00:12:38,666 --> 00:12:41,066 I mean, there's plenty of, in fact, that's a, again, 346 00:12:41,066 --> 00:12:42,533 a third takeaway from this book 347 00:12:42,533 --> 00:12:46,700 is the extent to which the international players 348 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:50,066 are having an influence as never before on the game. 349 00:12:50,066 --> 00:12:51,233 - Yes. 350 00:12:51,233 --> 00:12:52,233 When I fell in love with basketball, 351 00:12:52,233 --> 00:12:53,833 basketball was not, obviously, 352 00:12:53,833 --> 00:12:55,866 the second most popular sport in the world. 353 00:12:55,866 --> 00:12:58,566 Now, it clearly is. And it's not close. 354 00:12:58,566 --> 00:13:01,366 We're not catching soccer anytime soon. 355 00:13:01,366 --> 00:13:03,166 But Wemby, the French teams 356 00:13:03,166 --> 00:13:04,633 that we saw at the Olympics, 357 00:13:04,633 --> 00:13:07,333 on both the men's and women's side provide evidence. 358 00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:08,533 - God, they were both great, weren't they? 359 00:13:08,533 --> 00:13:09,433 - Yeah. 360 00:13:09,433 --> 00:13:10,766 - We could've easily lost. 361 00:13:10,766 --> 00:13:13,800 - Yeah. We needed Stephen Curry to do that. 362 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,133 But we're seeing two consecutive French players 363 00:13:16,133 --> 00:13:18,066 go number one in the NBA draft. 364 00:13:18,066 --> 00:13:21,566 An American player hasn't won the MVP in the 2020s yet. 365 00:13:21,566 --> 00:13:24,700 We've given five straight to international players. 366 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:28,800 This is the world's game now, which is great, as a fan. 367 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,166 It's a great thing for Olympics, 368 00:13:31,166 --> 00:13:34,000 but it also means we're getting cool techniques 369 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,733 and cool kind of personnel from overseas. 370 00:13:36,733 --> 00:13:38,633 And one of the things the Europeans have really given us, 371 00:13:38,633 --> 00:13:42,000 and Wemby is probably the best example of, it's not Jokic, 372 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,900 is the hyper skilled big man 373 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:45,300 who can dribble past and shoot. 374 00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:47,466 Oh, by the way, he's still seven feet tall 375 00:13:47,466 --> 00:13:49,200 and can rebound and block the shot. 376 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,133 - He's enormously not clumsy for a guy that big, 377 00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:54,433 I don't know how else to say it. 378 00:13:54,433 --> 00:13:57,266 - He's very graceful and fluid in his movements. 379 00:13:57,266 --> 00:13:58,866 - And he can do many things. 380 00:13:58,866 --> 00:14:00,100 Well, see, and that's the fourth point 381 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:01,100 that I took away from this book, 382 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:03,066 that the role of the center 383 00:14:03,066 --> 00:14:05,166 has been redefined to some degree. 384 00:14:05,166 --> 00:14:09,633 And I wanted to confirm my view in my head. 385 00:14:09,633 --> 00:14:11,400 Well, Wemby is a center. 386 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,933 Well, but he also doesn't only, 387 00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:15,233 I mean, he can do a lot of things, right? 388 00:14:15,233 --> 00:14:19,333 - So the traditional sort of five man taxonomy of basketball 389 00:14:19,333 --> 00:14:21,233 is sort of an extinct idea. 390 00:14:21,233 --> 00:14:23,333 - Right. It's an outmoded way to think about it. 391 00:14:23,333 --> 00:14:24,733 - It really is. 392 00:14:24,733 --> 00:14:26,833 And the centers were kind of being left for dead 393 00:14:26,833 --> 00:14:28,333 with the Golden State Warriors. 394 00:14:28,333 --> 00:14:30,633 Draymond Green it was about six, six was their center. 395 00:14:30,633 --> 00:14:33,700 Small ball's here to stay until, it wasn't. 396 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:36,033 Until Joel Embiid and Giannis Antetokounmpo 397 00:14:36,033 --> 00:14:37,666 and Nikola Jokic. 398 00:14:37,666 --> 00:14:39,900 And Victor Wembanyama showed up and we're like, 399 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,366 what if we just learned how to dribble, pass and shoot too? 400 00:14:42,366 --> 00:14:45,600 And it turns out being bigger in this sport still helps. 401 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,000 - Even if you're doing that. 402 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,566 - Even if you're doing, especially if you're doing that. 403 00:14:48,566 --> 00:14:51,266 Joel Embiid's shot's unblockable. 404 00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:53,833 Victor Wembanyama's shots are unblockable, 405 00:14:53,833 --> 00:14:56,500 but he can certainly block the other people's shots 406 00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:58,200 on the other side of the court. 407 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,333 So once, and again, this came from overseas. 408 00:15:01,333 --> 00:15:05,000 David Stern's vision in the '90s to globalize the game 409 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,900 helped set in motion like this sort of melting pot. 410 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,266 And one of the reasons we're seeing 411 00:15:10,266 --> 00:15:12,766 this giant resurrection of big guys in the league 412 00:15:12,766 --> 00:15:15,566 is these European youth leagues 413 00:15:15,566 --> 00:15:18,800 are teaching all of their players to be more skilled. 414 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,766 Even the big guys, dribble, pass and shoot. 415 00:15:20,766 --> 00:15:22,533 - Is the change that you're talking about 416 00:15:22,533 --> 00:15:24,000 top down or bottom up? 417 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,700 Bottom up, in the sense that it's happening 418 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:27,400 at the player level on the team level, 419 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,666 and the league has been transformed as a result? 420 00:15:29,666 --> 00:15:32,066 Or speaking of intentionality, 421 00:15:32,066 --> 00:15:34,066 there's an intentionality on the part of the NBA 422 00:15:34,066 --> 00:15:35,666 to have the league be transformed. 423 00:15:35,666 --> 00:15:38,466 So whether it's David Stern or Adam Silver or whomever, 424 00:15:38,466 --> 00:15:40,133 the people in charge of the league are saying, 425 00:15:40,133 --> 00:15:41,666 we can't do the same thing over and over. 426 00:15:41,666 --> 00:15:43,100 We've gotta figure out a new way to think about this. 427 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:44,633 - You know, that's a great question. 428 00:15:44,633 --> 00:15:46,866 I'm gonna give all the credit to the players. 429 00:15:46,866 --> 00:15:50,033 I think it's individual players that challenge the medium 430 00:15:50,033 --> 00:15:51,633 and have proven, 431 00:15:51,633 --> 00:15:54,333 and I always say it's not a peaceful transition of power 432 00:15:54,333 --> 00:15:56,400 from one stylistic regime to the next. 433 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Like, Michael had to go through the Pistons. It was bloody. 434 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,600 And at the other side, we got a much more 435 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,466 beautiful version of basketball, and he inspired Kobe. 436 00:16:04,466 --> 00:16:07,000 And Kobe inspires all these other players 437 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,466 we're talking about today. 438 00:16:08,466 --> 00:16:10,700 So I will give full credit 439 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:14,300 to basketball players developing techniques. 440 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:17,000 Whether it's Manu, your beloved Spurs with a Euro step. 441 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,766 That wasn't David Stern's idea. 442 00:16:18,766 --> 00:16:20,833 His idea was to get a kid in Argentina 443 00:16:20,833 --> 00:16:22,366 to play basketball, which is great. 444 00:16:22,366 --> 00:16:23,700 - Full stop. Yeah. 445 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:27,000 - But I don't think he foresaw the Euro step 446 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,433 or the European big quite like that. 447 00:16:29,433 --> 00:16:30,866 - Yeah. 448 00:16:30,866 --> 00:16:33,466 You mentioned Kobe and particularly Michael Jordan, 449 00:16:33,466 --> 00:16:35,633 you know, in politics sometimes you say, 450 00:16:35,633 --> 00:16:38,466 that person who routinely won elections 25 years ago 451 00:16:38,466 --> 00:16:40,533 couldn't get through a primary today 452 00:16:40,533 --> 00:16:42,333 the way the world changes. 453 00:16:42,333 --> 00:16:44,700 Could Michael Jordan get through a primary today? 454 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:46,000 - Oh, hell yeah. 455 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,533 - Could Kobe get through a primary today? Yes? 456 00:16:47,533 --> 00:16:49,233 - Yeah, because their defining characteristic 457 00:16:49,233 --> 00:16:51,966 wasn't their actual skillset that we saw manifest. 458 00:16:51,966 --> 00:16:53,833 It was their in between the ears stuff. 459 00:16:53,833 --> 00:16:56,000 These guys were the most competitive people. 460 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,200 And they were blessed physically. 461 00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,766 - Even though the game has changed, 462 00:16:59,766 --> 00:17:01,633 they would still be great today, 463 00:17:01,633 --> 00:17:03,366 Kobe would still be great today? 464 00:17:03,366 --> 00:17:04,300 - A hundred percent. 465 00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:06,366 I always push back on that idea 466 00:17:06,366 --> 00:17:08,100 that these guys couldn't play with these guys, 467 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:09,500 or vice versa, by the way. 468 00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:11,733 I think like Stephen Curry would've made it work. 469 00:17:11,733 --> 00:17:14,400 - 25 or 30 years ago would've been great. 470 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,766 - Yeah. They could've thrived at any time. 471 00:17:15,766 --> 00:17:17,200 - All right, and I'm gonna put you on the spot. 472 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,200 Who is the best player in the NBA right now? 473 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,700 - Nikola Jokic. It's not even close. 474 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:21,966 - You didn't even hesitate. 475 00:17:21,966 --> 00:17:23,266 - He's won three of the last four MVPs. 476 00:17:23,266 --> 00:17:25,933 He almost beat Team USA in the semi-finals 477 00:17:25,933 --> 00:17:28,433 of the Olympic tournament with not a lot of help out there. 478 00:17:28,433 --> 00:17:31,166 He is statistically, aesthetically 479 00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:33,766 just so far ahead of the second guy. 480 00:17:33,766 --> 00:17:35,333 - So if you could draft anybody 481 00:17:35,333 --> 00:17:37,633 off of any team for a new team, he'd be the one. 482 00:17:37,633 --> 00:17:38,900 - It's either him or Wembanyama, 483 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:40,500 depending on how long into the future. 484 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,100 - Isn't amazing that Wemby 485 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:43,933 after just a short time in the league 486 00:17:43,933 --> 00:17:46,300 is already on your list of the top two. 487 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,033 - He was as hyped as anybody since LeBron James 488 00:17:49,033 --> 00:17:51,066 and he's over, I think, 489 00:17:51,066 --> 00:17:53,833 achieved what that hype, so far. 490 00:17:53,833 --> 00:17:56,866 - Can he get the Spurs to a championship 491 00:17:56,866 --> 00:17:58,266 and to win, do you think? 492 00:17:58,266 --> 00:17:59,500 - A hundred percent. 493 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:00,533 - Do they have enough other people? 494 00:18:00,533 --> 00:18:01,733 I mean, you know the Spurs, 495 00:18:01,733 --> 00:18:04,000 you were in fact on the Spurs staff, 496 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,233 you were vice president at the Spurs, right, 497 00:18:06,233 --> 00:18:07,066 for a couple of years. 498 00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:08,000 - Right. 499 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:08,800 - You know that team very well. 500 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,800 You know, Pop very well. 501 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,400 Is that team ready to be there? 502 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,800 And is he the reason that they'll get there? 503 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,066 - He's the reason they're gonna get there. 504 00:18:18,066 --> 00:18:19,333 I think they're, 505 00:18:19,333 --> 00:18:20,733 as my friend friend Fran Fraschilla would say 506 00:18:20,733 --> 00:18:22,266 they're two years away from being two years away. 507 00:18:22,266 --> 00:18:27,266 I think they're on path, they're on the trajectory. 508 00:18:28,166 --> 00:18:29,933 They are making the baby steps 509 00:18:29,933 --> 00:18:31,233 and the steps in this case 510 00:18:31,233 --> 00:18:33,600 are very long strides by their French center. 511 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,266 But I think they're going to be, 512 00:18:35,266 --> 00:18:37,333 if I had to bet if they're gonna win a championship 513 00:18:37,333 --> 00:18:40,500 in the 2030s with Wembanyama, I would bet, yes. 514 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:41,800 This organization is ready. 515 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,066 - Which two teams are in the finals this year? 516 00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:45,600 - This year, 517 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,700 the Boston Celtics are not only the best team in the league, 518 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:49,866 but they have an easier path out of the East. 519 00:18:49,866 --> 00:18:51,533 So we'll start with the Celtics. 520 00:18:51,533 --> 00:18:53,666 The West is much, much harder. 521 00:18:53,666 --> 00:18:55,733 You have Oklahoma City, you have Denver. 522 00:18:56,633 --> 00:18:57,733 I'll say Oklahoma City. 523 00:18:57,733 --> 00:18:59,000 They're an ascendant young team 524 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,400 that is as deep as it gets in the West. 525 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,933 But the West is the hardest one to pick. 526 00:19:02,933 --> 00:19:05,300 The Celtics have a much more likely path. 527 00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:06,966 - Okay. So this is on TV, you know, right? 528 00:19:06,966 --> 00:19:09,800 So we have video of you saying Boston and Oklahoma City. 529 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,100 - That's right. 530 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:12,666 - We'll come back at the end of the season. 531 00:19:12,666 --> 00:19:14,533 If you're wrong, we'll dunk on you. See what I did there? 532 00:19:14,533 --> 00:19:15,366 - I like that. 533 00:19:15,366 --> 00:19:16,333 - You like that? Okay. 534 00:19:16,333 --> 00:19:17,600 So I've alluded a couple times 535 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,833 to the maps and the data and the charts 536 00:19:19,833 --> 00:19:23,733 and the way that you visualize statistics and data. 537 00:19:23,733 --> 00:19:26,833 And it's so additive to your presentation 538 00:19:26,833 --> 00:19:29,533 of your theories and thesis in this book. 539 00:19:29,533 --> 00:19:31,100 That is in fact your background. 540 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:32,366 - Yes, that's right. 541 00:19:32,366 --> 00:19:35,766 - You did not start out as a sports guy. 542 00:19:35,766 --> 00:19:37,533 You went to Penn State, 543 00:19:37,533 --> 00:19:39,033 grew up in State College, Pennsylvania. 544 00:19:39,033 --> 00:19:40,733 You went to Penn State, and the first job you had out, 545 00:19:40,733 --> 00:19:41,800 or one of the first jobs you had out 546 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,033 was as a cartographer for FEMA. 547 00:19:44,033 --> 00:19:44,933 - That's right. 548 00:19:44,933 --> 00:19:46,366 - Right. You're a map guy. 549 00:19:46,366 --> 00:19:48,433 - Yes. I'm a map. I'm a cartographer. 550 00:19:48,433 --> 00:19:50,200 I got a PhD in geography, 551 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,100 studying cartography and visualization. 552 00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:55,233 - Taught that in college. You taught at Michigan State. 553 00:19:55,233 --> 00:19:56,066 - Yes. I taught at Michigan State. 554 00:19:56,066 --> 00:19:57,466 - Taught at Harvard. 555 00:19:57,466 --> 00:20:00,600 And you taught that stuff. Not this stuff. 556 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,433 - No, but it is, yeah. 557 00:20:02,433 --> 00:20:04,400 The only reason that people let me talk about basketball 558 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,266 is because I started visualizing shooting data 559 00:20:06,266 --> 00:20:08,500 in the same way that I'd been making thematic maps 560 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,900 of things like floodplains or public health data 561 00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:13,533 and teaching students for that. 562 00:20:13,533 --> 00:20:15,500 And it's all spatial data, Evan. 563 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:18,700 The science of where, you know, knows no bounds. 564 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:21,100 - But obviously, you cared a lot about basketball. 565 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,200 - I love basketball. 566 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,566 - You played? 567 00:20:23,566 --> 00:20:25,733 - Oh, of course. Yeah, I still play. It's the best. 568 00:20:25,733 --> 00:20:27,200 - I know you're sitting, but you're tall. 569 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,233 - Yeah, I'm tall. 570 00:20:28,233 --> 00:20:29,500 - And you are a gym rat? 571 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:30,833 - I love it. Yeah. 572 00:20:30,833 --> 00:20:33,500 And I started having the ideas for my shot charts 573 00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,033 when I realized I was much better at shooting 574 00:20:36,033 --> 00:20:37,900 from one side of the court than the other. 575 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:39,366 - Interesting. That drove this whole thing. 576 00:20:39,366 --> 00:20:41,500 - And I knew there was this spatial component 577 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,900 to all of my favorite players' greatness too. 578 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:45,366 I knew that Kobe liked these spots, 579 00:20:45,366 --> 00:20:46,766 but Dirk liked that spot. 580 00:20:46,766 --> 00:20:48,933 And then Timmy liked the left block and bank it in. 581 00:20:48,933 --> 00:20:50,266 And I wanted to see that. 582 00:20:50,266 --> 00:20:52,366 And so the genesis of my career in basketball 583 00:20:52,366 --> 00:20:56,200 was trying to reveal these idiosyncrasies 584 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,533 that are at the heart of shooting performances. 585 00:20:58,533 --> 00:21:00,066 And nobody in the discourse was doing that. 586 00:21:00,066 --> 00:21:02,733 And I saw an opportunity to do it with my training. 587 00:21:02,733 --> 00:21:06,100 So mapping players, especially their scoring was my entry. 588 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:07,100 - Were you a good player? 589 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,533 - No, of course not. 590 00:21:08,533 --> 00:21:11,100 - Right, so the the old adage, those who can't teach. 591 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,400 - Yeah, those who can't teach or do stats. 592 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,366 - That works out. 593 00:21:15,366 --> 00:21:16,666 So you're now running the business 594 00:21:16,666 --> 00:21:18,800 of Sports Institute at the University of Texas. 595 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,433 And you teach at the McCombs School of Business 596 00:21:20,433 --> 00:21:21,966 a class on sports analytics. 597 00:21:21,966 --> 00:21:23,500 - Correct. 598 00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,066 - So, someone who loves this conversation or loves this book 599 00:21:25,066 --> 00:21:27,900 and wants to go through an entire semester 600 00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:29,733 of conversations like this, has the opportunity 601 00:21:29,733 --> 00:21:33,266 to sit in Professor Goldsberry, Doctor, PhD, 602 00:21:33,266 --> 00:21:35,733 Dr. Goldsberry's class and talk about this stuff. 603 00:21:35,733 --> 00:21:36,900 - It's great for me 604 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:38,366 to be back in a university setting. 605 00:21:38,366 --> 00:21:41,400 I spent my entire twenties wasting away getting a PhD 606 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:42,800 and I'm using it again 607 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,900 here at the University of Texas in Austin. 608 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:48,000 But in all seriousness, like I want to give back 609 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,333 and I want to help students 610 00:21:49,333 --> 00:21:52,233 who want careers in sports have a pathway. 611 00:21:52,233 --> 00:21:53,733 I know that your own son 612 00:21:53,733 --> 00:21:56,066 is very interested in sports and in basketball. 613 00:21:56,066 --> 00:21:59,366 And one of the things that these students encounter 614 00:21:59,366 --> 00:22:00,733 is how do I do that? 615 00:22:00,733 --> 00:22:02,100 There's no law school. 616 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,800 There's no business school for sports, there's no. 617 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,866 - Well, you can't get a PhD in basketball, right? 618 00:22:06,866 --> 00:22:08,000 - Not yet. 619 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,900 But it's like, it's more valuable 620 00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:11,166 than a PhD in a lot of fields. 621 00:22:11,166 --> 00:22:12,733 - But I want to come back to "Moneyball." 622 00:22:12,733 --> 00:22:16,400 You know, I actually dogeared in my reading of this book, 623 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,166 the chapter that referred to Michael Lewis's famous book, 624 00:22:19,166 --> 00:22:20,800 which became a famous movie, 625 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,933 you know, with Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill 626 00:22:22,933 --> 00:22:24,333 that I've seen many, many times 627 00:22:24,333 --> 00:22:27,166 because it really does change my thinking about, 628 00:22:27,166 --> 00:22:29,333 it changed everyone's thinking I think about that game. 629 00:22:29,333 --> 00:22:32,233 And the reality is there is a discipline here, right? 630 00:22:32,233 --> 00:22:33,400 It's not a one-off thing. 631 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,833 You're not the only one who can do, 632 00:22:34,833 --> 00:22:36,933 I mean, theoretically, you can create 633 00:22:36,933 --> 00:22:39,100 a whole bunch of Kirk Goldsberrys 634 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:40,900 as a consequence of this focus. 635 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:42,600 - Yeah, "Moneyball" to me isn't about 636 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,133 finding a better batting order for the Oakland A's. 637 00:22:45,133 --> 00:22:46,400 It's more deep than that. 638 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,700 It's about the irreversible infiltration 639 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:50,166 of financial thinking 640 00:22:50,166 --> 00:22:53,100 and business school thinking into sports reasoning. 641 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,400 and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. 642 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,800 - Applying a different set of frames. 643 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,433 - It was a smarter way to frame 644 00:23:02,433 --> 00:23:05,833 the endeavor of building pro sports teams, period. 645 00:23:05,833 --> 00:23:07,333 - Yeah. Yeah. 646 00:23:07,333 --> 00:23:10,266 - And it's the best sports book, probably ever written, 647 00:23:10,266 --> 00:23:12,033 at least in the 21st century. 648 00:23:12,033 --> 00:23:13,500 It's a masterpiece. 649 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:15,700 And one of the few books that we can point to 650 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:17,566 and say that book started a movement 651 00:23:17,566 --> 00:23:19,500 that changed something 652 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,000 really significant in American culture. 653 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,633 - And as movies about sports go, to be honest with you, 654 00:23:23,633 --> 00:23:25,666 it's very accessible for the average person. 655 00:23:25,666 --> 00:23:28,200 - We watch it in my class. It's a very seminal moment. 656 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,200 It captures this really interesting intersection 657 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,200 of tech, business and sports 658 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,066 that could have only happened in the early 2000s. 659 00:23:35,066 --> 00:23:36,600 - So we just got a couple minutes left. 660 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,433 You know I care about journalism and I know you do, as well. 661 00:23:38,433 --> 00:23:40,066 I want to ask you about sports journalism, 662 00:23:40,066 --> 00:23:41,200 the state of sports journalism. 663 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,066 You had logged time at ESPN 664 00:23:43,066 --> 00:23:47,133 and also at the late lamented, dear departed Grantland, 665 00:23:47,133 --> 00:23:48,200 right, which a lot of people 666 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,533 who care about sports journalism 667 00:23:49,533 --> 00:23:50,833 think was like this great thing 668 00:23:50,833 --> 00:23:53,633 and we're sorry not to have it with us anymore. 669 00:23:53,633 --> 00:23:56,533 What has happened to this? 670 00:23:56,533 --> 00:23:57,933 What has happened to sports journalism? 671 00:23:57,933 --> 00:23:59,100 I mean, it feels like everything 672 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,666 is just less than it used to be. 673 00:24:01,666 --> 00:24:03,600 - Yeah, I think social media happens. 674 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,600 - I mean, Sports Illustrated may as well be dead. 675 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,200 Pour one out for Sports Illustrated, right? 676 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,333 - Sports Illustrated has had a hard time. 677 00:24:09,333 --> 00:24:12,500 Grantland, which was very good in the 2010s is gone. 678 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,966 You know, The Ringer's doing a very good job. 679 00:24:14,966 --> 00:24:17,600 The Athletic is doing a good job. 680 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,133 But it's not as fun as it used to be for a lot of us. 681 00:24:21,133 --> 00:24:22,066 - Why is that? 682 00:24:22,066 --> 00:24:24,600 - I think the social media 683 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,833 sort of toxicity has affected it. 684 00:24:26,833 --> 00:24:30,666 I think the algorithm has challenged people 685 00:24:30,666 --> 00:24:33,666 to be more extreme versions of themselves. 686 00:24:33,666 --> 00:24:36,600 And for those of us who are like analytical and nuanced, 687 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:37,800 that's not as popular. 688 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:38,733 - Not my thing, right. 689 00:24:38,733 --> 00:24:40,300 - Yeah, not on TikTok, at least. 690 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,133 So that I think is the biggest thing is social media. 691 00:24:43,133 --> 00:24:45,200 But ultimately a lot of my friends in the business 692 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,600 have had a hard time landing jobs or staying with jobs 693 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,300 because it's just the rug is pulled out from you 694 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:53,800 every few years in one way or another. 695 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,266 - I wonder if like politics 696 00:24:55,266 --> 00:24:57,400 where the people we used to cover as journalists 697 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,033 have figured out that they no longer need us 698 00:24:59,033 --> 00:25:00,166 to get their message out. 699 00:25:00,166 --> 00:25:01,700 They can create their own channels. 700 00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,600 If that's also happened to some degree 701 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,700 as individuals and teams figure out 702 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:07,966 they can avoid the media asking hard questions 703 00:25:07,966 --> 00:25:10,533 and they can just get their content out to people directly. 704 00:25:10,533 --> 00:25:11,466 - Oh, a hundred percent. 705 00:25:11,466 --> 00:25:12,600 JJ Reddick, Draymond Green, 706 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,100 there's no shortage of NBA players. 707 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:15,400 The Kelce brothers 708 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,566 just signed a hundred million dollar deal. 709 00:25:17,566 --> 00:25:21,233 And I think athletes taking charge of the narrative 710 00:25:21,233 --> 00:25:22,833 is a great development. 711 00:25:22,833 --> 00:25:24,200 But in a zero sum game, 712 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,800 I think there's some consequences to that too. 713 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,233 There's only so much to go around. 714 00:25:28,233 --> 00:25:30,700 And as these voices get a larger and larger share, 715 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:32,200 whether that's better or worse, 716 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,900 there's just only so many jobs 717 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:35,966 for those of us in sports journalism. 718 00:25:35,966 --> 00:25:37,166 - Well, at least we have you. 719 00:25:37,166 --> 00:25:38,500 - Well, I'll still do it. 720 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:39,633 - Listen, I love this book. 721 00:25:39,633 --> 00:25:41,366 And I think you're such a smart guy 722 00:25:41,366 --> 00:25:42,933 and you make this stuff come alive 723 00:25:42,933 --> 00:25:44,233 in ways that nobody else does. 724 00:25:44,233 --> 00:25:45,733 So I want to wish you great success with this. 725 00:25:45,733 --> 00:25:47,033 I know it'll be a big hit. 726 00:25:47,033 --> 00:25:48,466 Everybody, give Kirk Goldsberry a big hand. 727 00:25:48,466 --> 00:25:49,433 - Thank you, guys. 728 00:25:49,433 --> 00:25:50,200 - [Evan] Thank you very much. 729 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,133 - Appreciate you. 730 00:25:51,133 --> 00:25:51,866 - Appreciate you being here. 731 00:25:51,866 --> 00:25:53,333 - Thank you. 732 00:25:53,333 --> 00:25:55,933 - [Evan] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 733 00:25:55,933 --> 00:26:00,033 Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 734 00:26:00,033 --> 00:26:02,100 to find invitations to interviews, 735 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,366 Q&A's with our audience and guests, 736 00:26:04,366 --> 00:26:06,600 and an archive of past episodes. 737 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,500 - I do think somebody will score a hundred points, 738 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:10,966 in part because of this heliocentric trend. 739 00:26:10,966 --> 00:26:12,700 We're seeing seventies, eighties. 740 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:14,266 And we're seeing faster games 741 00:26:14,266 --> 00:26:16,900 and we're seeing defenses just stretched to the limit. 742 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:18,433 As more and more people 743 00:26:18,433 --> 00:26:20,533 can shoot the three point shot further and further out, 744 00:26:20,533 --> 00:26:22,633 that's gonna be the reason 745 00:26:22,633 --> 00:26:25,266 that I think somebody's gonna do that in the next 20 years. 746 00:26:25,266 --> 00:26:26,766 Support for Overheard with Evan Smith 747 00:26:26,766 --> 00:26:28,466 comes from Hilco Partners, 748 00:26:28,466 --> 00:26:30,566 a Texas government affairs consultancy. 749 00:26:30,566 --> 00:26:32,166 Claire and Carl Stuart, 750 00:26:32,166 --> 00:26:35,366 Christine and Philip Dial and the Eller Group specializing 751 00:26:35,366 --> 00:26:38,366 in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication 752 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:39,900 EllerGroup.com 753 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:41,866 (soft music)