WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 00:02.933 --> 00:06.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by, HillCo Partners, 00:06.300 --> 00:09.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:09.300 --> 00:11.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 00:11.333 --> 00:13.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and by Christine and Philip Dial. 00:15.633 --> 00:16.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:16.800 --> 00:18.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter 00:18.433 --> 00:21.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% for The New York Times who covers the Department of Justice, 00:21.933 --> 00:25.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a job that used to be important, but kind of boring. 00:25.733 --> 00:27.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Not anymore, which is why 00:27.366 --> 00:29.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you can't turn on the television these days 00:29.366 --> 00:30.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% without seeing her. 00:30.700 --> 00:33.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's Katie Benner. This is "Overheard." 00:33.500 --> 00:34.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (soft music) 00:34.766 --> 00:37.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 00:37.666 --> 00:39.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You really turn the conversation around 00:39.600 --> 00:41.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about what leadership should be about. 00:41.800 --> 00:43.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Are we blowing this? 00:43.100 --> 00:44.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 00:44.866 --> 00:46.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by giving in to the attention junkie? 00:46.900 --> 00:48.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As an industry, we have an obligation 00:48.633 --> 00:50.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to hold ourselves to the same standards 00:50.133 --> 00:51.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that we hold everybody else. 00:51.600 --> 00:53.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is "Overheard." 00:53.233 --> 00:56.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauds) 00:56.266 --> 00:58.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Katie Benner, welcome. It's nice to have you here. 00:58.000 --> 00:59.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh, thank you so much for having me. 00:59.166 --> 01:00.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Thank you for being here. 01:00.466 --> 01:02.600 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% What a moment we are in with all the news. 01:02.600 --> 01:04.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And it's specifically the stuff 01:04.066 --> 01:06.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that you are charged with covering by The Times. 01:06.066 --> 01:10.200 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Could you have imagined a year ago or five years ago 01:10.200 --> 01:12.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you would be as busy, and on top of, 01:12.600 --> 01:14.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or at the center of, so much as you are today? 01:14.666 --> 01:16.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - You know, no, absolutely not. 01:16.300 --> 01:18.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And it's not just a lot of news, it's really historic news 01:18.900 --> 01:20.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% because what's decided in the next, you know, 01:20.966 --> 01:22.866 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% 12 to 24 to 36 months 01:22.866 --> 01:25.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of some of these cases go to the Supreme Court. 01:25.233 --> 01:28.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We're really writing history right now in a big way. 01:28.566 --> 01:29.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, and it's a legal thing 01:29.833 --> 01:31.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the one hand, as you point out, 01:31.300 --> 01:34.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but there's also an election that's happening not behind it, 01:34.366 --> 01:35.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but in some ways adjacent to it. 01:35.866 --> 01:38.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so history is being made kind of in real time 01:38.666 --> 01:40.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's continuing to be made. 01:40.800 --> 01:42.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I frankly don't know, and maybe you don't know 01:42.833 --> 01:43.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when it's gonna end. 01:43.800 --> 01:44.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - No, we do not. 01:44.633 --> 01:46.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 01:46.133 --> 01:48.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the number of indictments of the former President, 01:48.066 --> 01:50.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if I'm correct, is 91, right? 01:50.866 --> 01:54.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's two federal cases and it's two state cases, right? 01:54.533 --> 01:56.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yes, that's correct. 01:56.033 --> 02:00.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It's 40 indictments in one of the two federal cases 02:00.333 --> 02:02.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% related to the classified documents. 02:02.700 --> 02:07.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's four indictments on the January 6th insurrection. 02:07.066 --> 02:12.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In the state cases, there's 13 in the state of New York. 02:13.133 --> 02:15.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% No, the 13 is in Georgia. Is in Georgia. 02:15.166 --> 02:19.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is the question of election fraud, potentially. 02:19.633 --> 02:21.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then there's 30 in the state of New York 02:21.866 --> 02:24.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for falsifying business documents, right? 02:24.033 --> 02:27.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, that's just, under any other circumstances, 02:27.300 --> 02:28.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or at any other time, 02:28.700 --> 02:31.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people would just be gobsmacked about this. 02:31.133 --> 02:32.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And yet there sort of has been 02:32.400 --> 02:35.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this like acceptance of this as the new normal. 02:35.466 --> 02:37.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, it's the new normal for Donald Trump, 02:37.800 --> 02:40.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we're hoping that it does not become the new normal 02:40.033 --> 02:42.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for American democracy or for the presidency. 02:42.333 --> 02:44.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But for him, over the past, you know, six years, 02:44.733 --> 02:46.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% this is the norm that he created. 02:46.600 --> 02:48.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So certainly for him that's true. 02:48.466 --> 02:50.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Say more about that new abnormal, 02:50.166 --> 02:51.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or the new norm that he created. 02:51.666 --> 02:53.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You know, so one of the interesting things about Trump 02:53.866 --> 02:55.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that so many of the things that he spoke about, 02:55.666 --> 02:57.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so many of the things that he did 02:57.433 --> 02:58.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% would've once been considered 02:58.833 --> 03:01.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the fringe in American politics, or even the far right. 03:01.733 --> 03:04.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But because he was the president of the United States, 03:04.100 --> 03:06.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because he was elected by the voters, 03:06.066 --> 03:10.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just that position has mainstreamed a lot of those ideas, 03:10.166 --> 03:12.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% including the idea the presidency 03:12.366 --> 03:15.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is far more imperial than anybody had ever thought. 03:15.033 --> 03:16.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Now, one of the things 03:16.266 --> 03:17.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're gonna see in this election, 03:17.666 --> 03:18.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's going to be a referendum on those ideas. 03:18.900 --> 03:20.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Is that what the American people want? 03:20.933 --> 03:22.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Is that what we believe in? 03:22.233 --> 03:24.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's one of the big questions. 03:24.033 --> 03:27.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So all of these indictments, they're a way of saying 03:27.300 --> 03:28.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% yes, the criminal justice system 03:28.800 --> 03:31.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is looking at whether or not he committed wrongdoing, 03:31.500 --> 03:32.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whether or not he broke the law. 03:32.766 --> 03:34.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then the American people are saying, 03:34.500 --> 03:35.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% does that matter to us? 03:35.766 --> 03:37.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Right. Do you think the American people 03:37.433 --> 03:38.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is paying attention to this? 03:38.666 --> 03:40.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, we're painting with a broad brush here 03:40.500 --> 03:42.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we talk about the American people. 03:42.433 --> 03:43.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But I ask this 03:43.933 --> 03:46.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because those of us who are in the media business 03:46.533 --> 03:48.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or are interested in politics naturally, 03:48.900 --> 03:51.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, we gravitate to information 03:51.300 --> 03:52.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about something like this, 03:52.800 --> 03:55.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I wonder if out there, the vast majority of the country 03:55.733 --> 03:57.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is even tuned in on this. 03:57.300 --> 03:59.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's the way that we sometimes say Twitter is not real life. 03:59.666 --> 04:01.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Now, I guess X. 04:01.166 --> 04:02.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, some very small percentage of people 04:02.700 --> 04:05.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we know in the world are on that platform. 04:05.333 --> 04:07.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And yet it has this larger significance 04:07.966 --> 04:09.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to those of us who are down the well. 04:09.700 --> 04:11.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wonder if we're down the well on this. 04:11.433 --> 04:13.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You know, I think we're all a little bit down the well 04:13.000 --> 04:14.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whenever we're covering anything 04:14.566 --> 04:15.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we're really invested in it. 04:15.900 --> 04:16.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that could be a business story, 04:16.966 --> 04:18.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that could be a politics story. 04:18.200 --> 04:19.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So certainly that is always true. 04:19.900 --> 04:21.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I think that there is something 04:21.266 --> 04:22.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% interesting about Donald Trump. 04:22.300 --> 04:23.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He has a gravitational pull. 04:23.933 --> 04:25.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He is not the president of the United States today. 04:25.933 --> 04:27.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when you look at the coverage, 04:27.366 --> 04:29.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when you look at how people speak about politics, 04:29.366 --> 04:31.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you would not necessarily know that 04:31.666 --> 04:34.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from the number of stories written about Donald Trump 04:34.233 --> 04:36.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% versus the number of stories written about Joe Biden 04:36.600 --> 04:37.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or really any other person 04:37.766 --> 04:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who is actually in political office today. 04:40.200 --> 04:42.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He has an enormous gravitational pull 04:42.366 --> 04:44.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he wants to be center stage. 04:44.566 --> 04:45.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He wishes to be. 04:45.966 --> 04:48.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So that combination does make him somebody 04:48.233 --> 04:49.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's a little bit more compelling 04:49.633 --> 04:51.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and who's somebody who gets a lot of attention. 04:51.300 --> 04:52.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - So, are we blowing this? 04:52.600 --> 04:54.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 04:54.600 --> 04:56.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by giving into the attention junkie? 04:56.566 --> 04:58.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, I actually could make the argument 04:58.633 --> 05:01.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that there is no more important story right now, 05:01.866 --> 05:04.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% especially if you align it with the future of our democracy, 05:04.600 --> 05:07.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than what happens to this guy. 05:07.266 --> 05:10.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Does he exit the stage? Does he go quietly? 05:10.600 --> 05:12.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He probably goes loudly if he goes. 05:12.866 --> 05:14.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The future in some ways 05:14.333 --> 05:16.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% rests on the resolution of this story. 05:16.833 --> 05:19.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Maybe we should be giving him this much attention. 05:19.000 --> 05:20.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You know, so I think you're touching on something 05:20.466 --> 05:22.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is a debate that's ongoing inside of newsrooms. 05:22.566 --> 05:23.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Every newsroom? 05:23.500 --> 05:24.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Every newsroom, every day 05:24.900 --> 05:26.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you're covering the upcoming election 05:26.466 --> 05:28.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and if you're covering these cases. 05:28.166 --> 05:31.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're of enormous historic import. 05:31.700 --> 05:33.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's not whether or not we cover them, 05:33.466 --> 05:34.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% they must be covered. 05:34.433 --> 05:35.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But really, how? 05:35.866 --> 05:39.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Is this a time for, you know, just covering the news, 05:39.866 --> 05:41.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the who, what, when, where, and why? 05:41.100 --> 05:43.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Or is this a time for context? 05:43.133 --> 05:44.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Do we need a big story 05:44.600 --> 05:46.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by somebody like a Peter Baker at The New York Times 05:46.633 --> 05:48.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to put this into historic context? 05:48.433 --> 05:50.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Do we need sharp opinion pieces 05:50.433 --> 05:53.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we highlight more than we might have in the past 05:53.166 --> 05:56.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to give people, again, more context? 05:56.100 --> 05:59.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because just simply saying, simply repeating 05:59.200 --> 06:01.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what the former President is saying in his social media, 06:01.733 --> 06:03.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I don't think is going to cut it. 06:03.366 --> 06:04.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, and the existential anxiety, 06:04.733 --> 06:06.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think, just to stay in newsrooms for a second, 06:06.400 --> 06:07.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we'll get out of newsrooms here in a minute, 06:07.833 --> 06:11.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but just to stay in newsrooms is, you know, 06:11.300 --> 06:16.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when you have his comments, quotes in a story, 06:17.433 --> 06:20.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you interview him either on tape or live, 06:20.133 --> 06:24.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the torrent of falsehoods comes at you 06:24.200 --> 06:26.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% like a fire hose turned up to the highest setting. 06:26.466 --> 06:27.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% What are the obligations 06:27.933 --> 06:31.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of people in the news business in that moment 06:31.200 --> 06:32.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to fact check him in real time, 06:32.700 --> 06:35.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or to correct, contextualize, as you said? 06:35.133 --> 06:37.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We as a business didn't seem 06:37.500 --> 06:40.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to do a particularly good job of that the first time, right? 06:40.300 --> 06:42.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so that's the question and the challenge 06:42.300 --> 06:43.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% going into the next election cycle. 06:43.500 --> 06:45.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, and I don't know that it's necessary 06:45.666 --> 06:47.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to have him on live television 06:47.566 --> 06:49.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and to treat him as somebody 06:49.666 --> 06:53.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who was going to go into an interview in good faith. 06:53.100 --> 06:54.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But it's also very, but, you know, 06:54.366 --> 06:55.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think that cuts both ways though, 06:55.700 --> 06:57.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because after he was elected, 06:57.433 --> 06:59.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I had not listened to a Trump rally 06:59.866 --> 07:01.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% during the election season. 07:01.400 --> 07:03.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I hadn't really paid that much attention 07:03.666 --> 07:05.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to what he sounded like. 07:05.000 --> 07:06.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I remember when I moved to Washington 07:06.700 --> 07:08.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to cover the Justice Department, 07:08.066 --> 07:09.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was working late one night, 07:09.600 --> 07:12.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it was my first time ever hearing an entire Trump rally 07:12.333 --> 07:14.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because we played them all in the office, all of the time. 07:14.933 --> 07:16.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I was really stunned 07:16.566 --> 07:19.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because when you take little snippets of what he says 07:19.233 --> 07:20.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and you put them in an article, 07:20.433 --> 07:23.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as a quote, and with more context, et cetera, 07:23.266 --> 07:26.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in many ways that normalizes what he's doing too. 07:26.333 --> 07:29.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And hearing him, and actually hearing how he speaks, 07:29.733 --> 07:32.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% hearing his rambling, his disjointed thoughts, 07:32.133 --> 07:34.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was really, I was incredibly shocked. 07:34.266 --> 07:35.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was taken aback. 07:35.766 --> 07:39.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I did not realize just how really beyond rhetorically, 07:39.033 --> 07:41.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% beyond the pale he was as a president. 07:41.000 --> 07:43.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So how do you do justice to covering a Trump rally? 07:43.366 --> 07:46.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Because look, the polls right now have him, not only ahead, 07:46.300 --> 07:48.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but miles ahead of his competitors, 07:48.400 --> 07:50.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just on the basis of that, 07:50.333 --> 07:52.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you have to assume it's his nomination to lose. 07:52.266 --> 07:53.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Now things could happen. 07:53.700 --> 07:55.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we're probably heading into another time 07:55.500 --> 07:56.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when those Trump rallies 07:56.933 --> 07:58.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are going to be a feature of all of our lives, 07:58.800 --> 08:01.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so what does the news business do if by taking quotes out 08:01.733 --> 08:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you're actually not doing justice? 08:03.000 --> 08:06.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You know, I don't have an answer for this. 08:06.266 --> 08:07.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I can tell you the kinds of stories 08:07.600 --> 08:09.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I would really be curious to read 08:09.533 --> 08:11.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as just as a consumer of news, 08:11.600 --> 08:13.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would love to read some stories about this rhetoric 08:13.633 --> 08:15.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and where it is in history, what it draws from, 08:15.933 --> 08:17.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what are the antecedents 08:17.733 --> 08:19.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to some of the things that he's saying. 08:19.033 --> 08:22.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's not coming up with ideas in a vacuum. 08:22.833 --> 08:24.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's coming up with ideas 08:24.233 --> 08:26.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that are very, very much, much 08:26.400 --> 08:28.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% part of strains of American thought 08:28.900 --> 08:31.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that have been, again, once considered very extreme. 08:31.633 --> 08:33.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Where do they come from? How do they operate? 08:33.100 --> 08:34.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why do we want them. Why do we have them? 08:34.433 --> 08:36.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And why do people support them? 08:36.200 --> 08:37.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I would love to read more about that. 08:37.700 --> 08:39.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The complicated part of this, Katie, 08:39.266 --> 08:40.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and again, I want to get off of this 08:40.800 --> 08:43.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and get back to the question the indictments in a second, 08:43.400 --> 08:47.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that when someone from The New York Times, you, anybody, 08:47.366 --> 08:51.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% talks about the President's language or ideas as extreme, 08:51.766 --> 08:54.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you're against him, right? 08:54.300 --> 08:55.566 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 08:55.566 --> 08:57.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You're oppositional or you are the enemy. 08:57.100 --> 08:59.766 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And this is the way we've litigated the relationship 08:59.766 --> 09:02.300 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% between the media and people in politics 09:02.300 --> 09:04.166 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% since he was elected, right? 09:04.166 --> 09:06.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% It's us versus them. 09:06.166 --> 09:08.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And if you describe, even if it's accurate, 09:08.700 --> 09:11.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ideas as extreme, well, you're now part of the problem. 09:11.700 --> 09:13.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I mean, it's also a little bit different 09:13.033 --> 09:14.166 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% because he was the president 09:14.166 --> 09:16.533 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% and you can't emphasize that enough. 09:16.533 --> 09:18.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% You know, if there were a different person 09:18.266 --> 09:23.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% speaking about a far right ideology, for example, 09:24.133 --> 09:25.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it wouldn't matter as much 09:25.633 --> 09:28.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if they were a more fringe character, 09:28.066 --> 09:29.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but because this is a human being 09:29.366 --> 09:30.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who was the president of the United States, 09:30.700 --> 09:32.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he's actually enabled 09:32.600 --> 09:36.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what was once considered fringe and extreme to be part of 09:36.600 --> 09:40.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one of our two mainstream political parties in America life. 09:40.200 --> 09:41.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's in the national bloodstream now. 09:41.366 --> 09:42.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's in the national bloodstream 09:42.300 --> 09:43.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it is fully taken over 09:43.800 --> 09:45.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a large swath of the Republican Party. 09:45.933 --> 09:47.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And so it's true. 09:47.466 --> 09:50.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How do you cover that without there is an inherent critique? 09:50.300 --> 09:51.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's an inherent critique 09:51.733 --> 09:54.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% saying this is in some ways undermining democracy. 09:54.966 --> 09:57.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is something that comes from 09:57.600 --> 10:00.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a far right tradition in the United States 10:00.000 --> 10:03.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we have tried to push out of civil discourse 10:03.300 --> 10:05.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and everyday life for decades and decades and decades 10:05.500 --> 10:07.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% since the Civil War. 10:07.000 --> 10:08.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, the minute you say these things, you're right. 10:08.666 --> 10:10.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You are inherently critiquing, 10:10.333 --> 10:15.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not anymore a fringe person, but an entire political party. 10:16.733 --> 10:19.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that is something that's really difficult to do. 10:19.100 --> 10:22.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I mean, but it's something that has to be done 10:22.666 --> 10:24.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because the reality is 10:24.166 --> 10:27.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that a mainstream party has embraced fringe ideas. 10:27.533 --> 10:29.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, and that mainstream party 10:29.200 --> 10:30.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that has embraced fringe ideas 10:30.466 --> 10:32.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% very well might win the White House again. 10:32.700 --> 10:34.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we're gonna be back to the things that we saw, 10:34.533 --> 10:38.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% maybe worse than we saw in that respect before. 10:38.366 --> 10:40.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So back to the indictments, 91 indictments, four cases, 10:40.666 --> 10:43.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% give us the sequence of this. 10:43.133 --> 10:45.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% From what we know today, 10:45.233 --> 10:48.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how is this likely to play out sequentially? 10:48.100 --> 10:51.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah, so even though it was the first case brought, 10:51.033 --> 10:53.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think New York is inclined to go last. 10:53.900 --> 10:56.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We've already seen, you know, 10:56.133 --> 10:58.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we've already seen New York say, 10:58.566 --> 11:01.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we don't need to bring this case to trial right away. 11:01.900 --> 11:03.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We defer to the federal government. 11:03.400 --> 11:05.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We think that those cases take precedence 11:05.766 --> 11:07.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we want to see how they play out. 11:07.100 --> 11:08.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Take precedence or are stronger. 11:08.866 --> 11:11.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There was criticism of Alvin Bragg, the DA, 11:11.366 --> 11:13.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who brought the first set of cases in New York 11:13.533 --> 11:15.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for putting a weak, 11:15.533 --> 11:18.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what was perceived to be a weak or weaker case, 11:18.033 --> 11:19.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than some of the others out front first, 11:19.766 --> 11:22.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so that people dismissed the seriousness of it, right? 11:22.900 --> 11:25.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yes, you know, whether or not he was accurately accounting 11:25.666 --> 11:27.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for how he spent his campaign money. 11:27.633 --> 11:29.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Absolutely. 11:29.133 --> 11:30.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so people were saying that that case was weak. 11:30.633 --> 11:33.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, this is the thing about our criminal justice system. 11:33.566 --> 11:35.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We have a lot of rules 11:35.100 --> 11:37.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we know how everything is supposed to happen. 11:37.366 --> 11:39.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But at the same time, it's a system made up of human beings 11:39.600 --> 11:44.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with their own flaws and biases and assumptions. 11:44.033 --> 11:46.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So that's what makes these things so unpredictable. 11:46.900 --> 11:48.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You can have all the pundits in the world say, 11:48.533 --> 11:50.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this case is strong, this case is weak, 11:50.766 --> 11:52.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% this is how it should play out. 11:52.566 --> 11:54.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - We'll know when we know. 11:54.100 --> 11:55.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - We'll know when know because it's a jury of human beings. 11:55.733 --> 11:57.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right. - And so who come to this, 11:57.400 --> 11:58.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% no matter how impartial they want to be. 11:58.733 --> 12:00.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - So New York goes last. 12:00.066 --> 12:01.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - New York will probably go last. 12:01.566 --> 12:03.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And yes, like there are people who said that case was weak 12:03.366 --> 12:05.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in part because of what it was about, 12:05.100 --> 12:08.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, a bookkeeping case, I think is the critique. 12:08.100 --> 12:11.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What's happening at the federal level, you know, 12:11.133 --> 12:14.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you're seeing basically Georgia, Fani Willis, 12:14.400 --> 12:17.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Jack Smith in Washington DC, 12:17.700 --> 12:19.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% almost in a neck-and-neck race 12:19.666 --> 12:22.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to see who will bring their cases first. 12:22.433 --> 12:25.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the cases involve much of the same material. 12:25.200 --> 12:27.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Was the President, former President of the United States, 12:27.633 --> 12:31.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% while president, trying to undo a free and fair election? 12:31.800 --> 12:33.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That is the question. 12:33.000 --> 12:34.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And if the answer is yes, 12:34.366 --> 12:39.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is inherently an anti-Constitutional thing to do. 12:39.166 --> 12:42.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, is that who we want for president 12:42.400 --> 12:43.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% becomes the next question? 12:43.600 --> 12:47.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But the jury may not actually decide 12:47.500 --> 12:49.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% before we get to the election. 12:49.100 --> 12:51.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that is what is so interesting. 12:51.600 --> 12:53.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, again, very historic. 12:53.566 --> 12:54.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - So I asked you about sequence, 12:54.666 --> 12:56.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% let me ask you about severity. 12:56.566 --> 12:59.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In your mind as a reporter, which of these four cases 12:59.400 --> 13:01.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% sets up for you as potentially 13:01.400 --> 13:03.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% most problematic for the former President? 13:03.500 --> 13:04.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I mean, most problematic for the former, 13:04.966 --> 13:08.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think of them as, what's most problematic for our country? 13:08.866 --> 13:11.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And, you know, I think that, 13:11.033 --> 13:12.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I would say probably least 13:12.366 --> 13:14.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% would be the classified documents case. 13:14.300 --> 13:15.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% No matter who wins, 13:15.666 --> 13:17.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% keep in mind, all these cases will be appealed, 13:17.533 --> 13:20.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I cannot see the Supreme Court wanting to take that case up. 13:20.966 --> 13:23.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a case about whether or not 13:23.200 --> 13:25.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% classified information was mishandled. 13:25.300 --> 13:27.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's tremendous body of law. 13:27.766 --> 13:30.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Tons and tons and tons of other cases. 13:30.100 --> 13:32.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is, again, not something the Supreme Court will take. 13:32.633 --> 13:34.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So if he wins, he wins. If he loses, he loses. 13:34.700 --> 13:38.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's kind of it. And I don't see that going further. 13:38.433 --> 13:40.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it's a case that would be that the government, 13:40.666 --> 13:43.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% based on the evidence we see in the affidavits 13:43.633 --> 13:45.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and in the court filings, it's very strong. 13:45.700 --> 13:50.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% However, the January 6th case, and the Fani Willis case, 13:50.466 --> 13:52.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there is not a tremendous body of law. 13:52.900 --> 13:55.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there's not a lot of court precedent 13:55.766 --> 13:57.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for something like this. 13:57.466 --> 14:00.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I can see that getting appealed no matter who wins. 14:00.466 --> 14:04.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I can see the Supreme Court wanting to weigh in. 14:04.200 --> 14:08.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it could really chart a lot for the country, 14:08.200 --> 14:13.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% particularly vis-a-vis executive power and for Donald Trump, 14:13.033 --> 14:14.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, this is a Supreme Court, 14:14.533 --> 14:17.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that if you just look at the makeup of the court right now, 14:17.200 --> 14:20.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you have to guess is at least open to the idea 14:20.166 --> 14:22.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the President's side 14:22.233 --> 14:26.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% might be the legitimate side to take, right? 14:26.100 --> 14:27.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I would say open to the idea 14:27.366 --> 14:29.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of a strong executive is probably accurate, yeah. 14:29.633 --> 14:32.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah, so, you know, the charge on all of this, Katie, 14:32.900 --> 14:34.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause you've heard this, as we've all heard this, 14:34.900 --> 14:37.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is they've weaponized the Justice Department. 14:37.233 --> 14:38.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This is becoming a talking point 14:38.600 --> 14:40.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the presidential campaign. 14:40.133 --> 14:41.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Not just his campaign, but other people's campaigns, 14:41.566 --> 14:43.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who seek the favor of his supporters, 14:43.866 --> 14:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% hoping that he falls away and they inherit those folks. 14:47.733 --> 14:49.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What does that exactly mean? 14:49.500 --> 14:52.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, my understanding as I was growing up, basic civics, 14:52.733 --> 14:54.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that the Justice Department is independent, 14:54.866 --> 14:57.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that nobody could weaponize it for political purposes. 14:57.400 --> 14:58.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, so, you know, 14:58.666 --> 14:59.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, historically, the Justice Department 14:59.833 --> 15:02.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% wasn't always politically neutral. 15:02.700 --> 15:05.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was weaponized many, many, many times in our past. 15:05.400 --> 15:07.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think most significantly during the Civil Rights movement 15:07.866 --> 15:09.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when you had the FBI 15:09.066 --> 15:12.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% spying on MLK, on Martin Luther King Jr 15:12.033 --> 15:14.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and trying to undo the Civil rights movement. 15:14.400 --> 15:18.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You had, you know, the former FBI director 15:18.066 --> 15:21.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% working with presidents to basically gather oppo research. 15:21.800 --> 15:23.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So we don't have a pristine past. 15:23.900 --> 15:25.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But post-Watergate, you're right. 15:25.900 --> 15:27.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A lot of reforms were put in place 15:27.933 --> 15:29.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to make sure that did not happen again 15:29.466 --> 15:31.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because the dangers of it 15:31.633 --> 15:34.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% became so clear in the '60s and '70s, 15:34.466 --> 15:36.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% culminating in Richard Nixon's 15:36.933 --> 15:39.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% attempts to use the Justice Department 15:39.100 --> 15:41.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to gain power and be reelected. 15:41.100 --> 15:41.900 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:41.900 --> 15:43.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - So that said, 15:43.400 --> 15:46.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what Donald Trump tried to do during his presidency 15:46.200 --> 15:50.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was to undo those Watergate error reforms. 15:50.633 --> 15:52.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He did not adhere to them. 15:52.333 --> 15:54.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't even know if he consciously thought, woke up 15:54.100 --> 15:55.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and said, I'm going to undo the Watergate era reforms. 15:55.933 --> 15:57.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I really don't think that's the way he operates. 15:57.600 --> 16:00.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. Yeah. 16:00.133 --> 16:03.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But he did ignore them and he flouted them. 16:03.400 --> 16:04.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And he desperately wanted 16:04.866 --> 16:06.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to weaponize the Justice Department to retain power. 16:06.900 --> 16:08.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, the reality is that his anger, 16:08.733 --> 16:10.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% first at Jeff Sessions and then at Bill Barr 16:10.766 --> 16:14.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% resulting in both departing the job of Attorney General, 16:14.033 --> 16:16.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was in part that he wanted the Attorney General 16:16.433 --> 16:17.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to be the president's lawyer. 16:17.966 --> 16:19.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Absolutely. 16:19.466 --> 16:20.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And not the country's lawyer, in essence, right? 16:20.966 --> 16:21.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Absolutely. 16:21.900 --> 16:23.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And you know, Merrick Garland, 16:23.133 --> 16:24.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% as we're sitting here today in the, you know, 16:24.266 --> 16:26.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% latter mid part of September, 16:26.333 --> 16:28.633 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Merrick Garland just testified in Congress 16:28.633 --> 16:31.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% in which he said expressly, I am not the President's lawyer. 16:31.900 --> 16:33.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 16:33.133 --> 16:34.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - He, you know, sort of said that flat out, 16:34.433 --> 16:36.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but there's only the evidence of, 16:36.700 --> 16:38.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as I said, Sessions and Barr that the President, 16:38.400 --> 16:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% former President thought differently about that. 16:40.200 --> 16:41.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, well, and then he wanted to put 16:41.833 --> 16:43.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a functionary named Jeff Clark 16:43.833 --> 16:45.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the role of the Attorney General 16:45.166 --> 16:46.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the 11th hour to overturn the election. 16:46.833 --> 16:48.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So he really did make explicit 16:48.266 --> 16:50.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what he wanted the AG to do for him. 16:50.866 --> 16:52.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Garland is an interesting figure. 16:52.833 --> 16:54.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think the jury is definitely out 16:54.466 --> 16:56.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about how history's going to judge him. 16:56.100 --> 16:57.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Yeah. 16:57.600 --> 16:59.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - 10 years from now, I think we'll still be working it out. 16:59.866 --> 17:02.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He had such a belief in process. 17:02.566 --> 17:06.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He had such a belief that if you just follow the rules, 17:06.100 --> 17:07.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% everything will be okay. 17:07.966 --> 17:10.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I don't know that that's what's going to happen. 17:10.100 --> 17:11.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, there's a certain, I mean, again, 17:11.366 --> 17:12.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% no disrespect to the Attorney General, 17:12.633 --> 17:14.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% there's naivete in that. 17:14.333 --> 17:15.600 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I mean, the thing is the idea 17:15.600 --> 17:17.800 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% that in the world that we're living in today, 17:17.800 --> 17:20.400 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that if you just play by the rules, it will all work out, 17:20.400 --> 17:22.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% kind of seems quaint, right? 17:22.566 --> 17:23.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, well, it kind of reminds me 17:23.800 --> 17:25.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of Antigone a little bit, right, of course. 17:25.433 --> 17:26.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, like the king's like, 17:26.933 --> 17:28.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if I just keep following the rules, it'll be okay. 17:28.733 --> 17:30.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But the rules are, you know, 17:30.366 --> 17:31.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they're not fit for this moment. 17:31.733 --> 17:33.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're not fit for this wartime footing. 17:33.266 --> 17:34.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% They're not fit for what society wants. 17:34.966 --> 17:36.566 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% They're not fit for my own family. 17:36.566 --> 17:39.033 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% And then tragedy unfolds, of course. 17:40.166 --> 17:43.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But his adherence to the rules is unshakeable 17:43.666 --> 17:45.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Garland is a little bit like that. 17:45.233 --> 17:46.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - What is your sense as a reporter 17:46.566 --> 17:48.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% covering the Justice Department? 17:48.066 --> 17:50.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Is the left more angry at Garland on a regular basis? 17:50.266 --> 17:51.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Or is the right more angry at Garland? 17:51.966 --> 17:53.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh, I mean, lucky for Merrick Garland, 17:53.366 --> 17:54.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% everybody's mad at him all the time. 17:54.300 --> 17:55.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I mean, seriously, right? 17:55.800 --> 17:58.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's peak Merrick Garland, right? Everyone's mad at me. 17:58.466 --> 18:00.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But the left has been really frustrated 18:00.566 --> 18:03.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because they felt like he did not move quickly enough 18:03.500 --> 18:05.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on matters related to the former President. 18:05.566 --> 18:08.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, and again, I think there was this belief 18:08.100 --> 18:09.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that, well, if the men and women, 18:09.400 --> 18:10.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the career people of the Justice Department 18:10.800 --> 18:13.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% won't find the evidence to charge Donald Trump, 18:13.300 --> 18:14.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% they will do it. 18:14.833 --> 18:17.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's great. And I'm going to let them do this. 18:17.133 --> 18:19.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Now, since appointing a special counsel, 18:19.733 --> 18:22.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the January 6th case is the most interesting to me. 18:22.366 --> 18:25.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Basically, Jack Smith came in in November. 18:25.166 --> 18:26.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And everything we saw in the indictment, 18:26.900 --> 18:30.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we knew before he was appointed to be special counsel, 18:30.533 --> 18:33.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there was not much new in that indictment from that time. 18:33.600 --> 18:35.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But what was new is a figure who came in 18:35.700 --> 18:36.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and specifically said, 18:36.966 --> 18:39.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm going to get to the bottom of this with you 18:39.100 --> 18:41.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and my name, Jack Smith, 18:41.133 --> 18:43.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I will take responsibility for this. 18:45.666 --> 18:48.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, federal employees, 18:50.433 --> 18:52.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they work for an administration. 18:52.933 --> 18:55.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And when the really tough decisions are made, 18:55.400 --> 18:58.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whether it's controversial prosecution, 18:58.266 --> 18:59.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a public corruption case, 18:59.800 --> 19:02.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and inspecting an airplane to make sure it's safe, 19:02.000 --> 19:05.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you want a politically appointed head to sign off on that 19:05.500 --> 19:07.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when you are the civil servant. 19:07.666 --> 19:10.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You don't want that. That's not what you signed up for. 19:10.500 --> 19:12.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Of course, it would take that kind of leadership, 19:12.633 --> 19:14.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that kind of direct leadership 19:14.100 --> 19:16.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to get something like that over the finish line. 19:16.066 --> 19:18.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is such a difficult and hard thing to do. 19:18.900 --> 19:21.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Who's going to be hauled before Congress? Jack Smith. 19:21.333 --> 19:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Not the men and women of the Justice Department 19:24.000 --> 19:25.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who Merrick Garland just thought would do it. 19:25.900 --> 19:28.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But look, this is the job he signed up for. 19:28.233 --> 19:30.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, when you're asked to be the special counsel, 19:30.800 --> 19:32.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% do you really have much of a choice? 19:32.033 --> 19:34.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, and I think that he eagerly took the job. 19:34.033 --> 19:35.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah. And so you and I were talking earlier today 19:35.900 --> 19:37.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about the fact that you got to The Times 19:37.833 --> 19:39.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and switched beats to the Justice Department, 19:39.733 --> 19:42.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% kind of right at the beginning of Robert Mueller. 19:42.600 --> 19:43.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 19:43.533 --> 19:45.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - So you've had the opportunity 19:45.000 --> 19:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to observe Mueller up close and Jack Smith up close. 19:47.733 --> 19:48.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Compare and contrast. 19:48.966 --> 19:50.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I think that the big difference 19:50.566 --> 19:52.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the way the press is treated both men. 19:52.366 --> 19:57.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that it is not unfair to say that the public, 19:57.100 --> 20:00.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% some parts of the press, a lot of columnists, 20:00.333 --> 20:05.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a lot of Twitter were all decided when Mueller was appointed 20:06.500 --> 20:08.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that it meant the end of Donald Trump. 20:08.500 --> 20:10.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, of course, as we know, it did not mean that. 20:10.766 --> 20:11.933 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 20:11.933 --> 20:13.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So when Jack Smith was appointed, 20:13.700 --> 20:17.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% everybody was far more conservative 20:17.100 --> 20:18.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in how they approached that news 20:18.766 --> 20:20.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what it would really mean 20:20.433 --> 20:22.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for the former President. 20:22.500 --> 20:23.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, Mueller had had a reputation 20:23.966 --> 20:26.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that preceded his appointment at special counsel. 20:26.633 --> 20:28.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That he was like, you know, Gary Cooper. 20:28.500 --> 20:29.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yes, it was appointing a rockstar. 20:29.833 --> 20:31.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was appointing like the man 20:31.033 --> 20:33.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who helped the United States after 9/11. 20:33.600 --> 20:35.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He remade the FBI. 20:35.466 --> 20:40.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He made it this extremely powerful counter-terrorism agency. 20:41.533 --> 20:42.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he was revered. I mean, that is really different. 20:42.833 --> 20:44.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jack Smith was also completely unknown. 20:44.866 --> 20:46.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Nobody really knew anything about him. 20:46.766 --> 20:47.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Right. I mentioned The New York Times. 20:47.933 --> 20:49.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So you got to The Times in '15. 20:49.433 --> 20:50.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Katie] Yeah. 20:50.700 --> 20:52.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And you've been in journalism since then. 20:52.133 --> 20:53.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We'll come to your personal story in a second 20:53.366 --> 20:54.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I guess I think it's interesting 20:54.800 --> 20:56.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you didn't necessarily start out in college 20:56.833 --> 20:58.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or even right after college 20:58.066 --> 20:59.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thinking this is what I wanted to do. 20:59.933 --> 21:01.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But you got to The Times in '15. 21:01.566 --> 21:02.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You were covering technology. 21:02.933 --> 21:04.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 21:04.466 --> 21:05.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You switched over in '17 to the Justice Department. 21:05.933 --> 21:07.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So you've been at this now 21:07.166 --> 21:09.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for approaching a decade at The Times, 21:09.700 --> 21:12.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and longer than that in your career. 21:12.000 --> 21:14.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The business that we are in has changed and changed 21:14.466 --> 21:16.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and changed and changed and changed. 21:16.033 --> 21:18.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's changing as we sit here. Reflect on that. 21:18.566 --> 21:23.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, when I started in 2001, really, 21:23.033 --> 21:24.233 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 21:24.233 --> 21:26.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - the press had power, had a lot of power 21:26.366 --> 21:30.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because it controlled who had a big public voice. 21:30.133 --> 21:31.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Yep. 21:31.600 --> 21:33.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So if you were a columnist for The Washington Post 21:33.833 --> 21:36.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or The New York Times, it was a big, big deal. 21:36.600 --> 21:39.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You, an elite corps of people, 21:39.233 --> 21:42.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% got to spout their opinions into the public, 21:42.600 --> 21:43.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and that was it. 21:43.866 --> 21:45.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we all read it and absorbed it, 21:45.366 --> 21:47.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% especially on the opinion side. 21:47.866 --> 21:50.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Now, because of social media, 21:50.700 --> 21:52.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% everybody gets to be an opinion columnist. 21:52.533 --> 21:53.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's different. 21:53.866 --> 21:56.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've democratized it, for better or worse. 21:56.866 --> 21:58.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so while there is still a lot of prestige 21:58.800 --> 22:03.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in having that job, the power is really diffuse. 22:03.100 --> 22:04.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And on the reporting side too, 22:04.900 --> 22:06.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's something similar going on. 22:06.566 --> 22:08.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Like you can break news, 22:08.066 --> 22:10.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you can be the only person who knows something, 22:10.633 --> 22:12.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but it's disseminated so quickly 22:12.300 --> 22:15.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you don't really have much control over it once it happens. 22:15.133 --> 22:19.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And information, facts, with the spread of misinformation, 22:19.400 --> 22:22.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you might break news and you might have a fact, 22:22.166 --> 22:24.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but it can get completely buried 22:24.000 --> 22:26.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and nobody will know what happened. 22:26.100 --> 22:27.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah. Well, another thing that I'm gonna mention, 22:27.933 --> 22:29.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because of your presence, 22:29.500 --> 22:32.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% your persistent presence on television these days, 22:32.533 --> 22:35.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which you made a face, but you're good, I can say it, 22:35.700 --> 22:39.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that that didn't used to be part of the expectation. 22:39.600 --> 22:41.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - No, not at all. 22:41.100 --> 22:43.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And now suddenly, you are so much better known, 22:43.500 --> 22:45.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and so much more recognizable 22:45.733 --> 22:48.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as a consequence of your time on television. 22:48.733 --> 22:50.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wonder if that's a help or a hurt 22:50.633 --> 22:52.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the job that is your principal job. 22:52.666 --> 22:55.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yikes. I mean, well, I had to buy a lot of shirts. 22:55.800 --> 22:57.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I had to buy a lot of shirts. 22:57.333 --> 23:01.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Okay. Well, wasn't the answer I was expecting, but go on. 23:01.433 --> 23:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, like, if you've seen "Spotlight" 23:03.000 --> 23:04.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know that journalists aren't known 23:04.233 --> 23:09.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for their sartorial like, excellence, but. 23:09.200 --> 23:13.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Yeah, so that is, in DC, DC's a very TV driven place. 23:13.800 --> 23:16.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like, politicians watch cable news, 23:16.200 --> 23:17.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% people in the administration watch cable news. 23:17.500 --> 23:20.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's helpful in that people know who you are 23:20.733 --> 23:21.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and they're willing 23:21.933 --> 23:23.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to at least have a conversation with you, 23:23.100 --> 23:24.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% maybe when they wouldn't have before. 23:24.300 --> 23:26.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But otherwise it doesn't really do much. 23:28.100 --> 23:30.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, it's just an expectation of the job, 23:30.666 --> 23:35.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because the way The Times wants reporters to be credible 23:35.200 --> 23:36.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and to have their stories front and center. 23:36.700 --> 23:38.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - You know, I have this theory, 23:38.466 --> 23:41.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's, what's the point of it, it's just a theory? 23:41.100 --> 23:43.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But that it benefits the big media organizations 23:43.833 --> 23:45.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to have their reporters on, 23:45.300 --> 23:48.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not so much because they're seen in DC and New York and LA, 23:48.300 --> 23:50.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but because they're seen in Des Moines. 23:50.400 --> 23:52.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And they're seen in Birmingham. 23:52.266 --> 23:54.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they're seen in Columbus, Ohio. 23:54.600 --> 23:56.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And now suddenly the people in the middle of the country 23:56.833 --> 23:58.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are having the same conversation 23:58.100 --> 23:59.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or are listening to the same conversation 23:59.466 --> 24:00.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that the rest of us are 24:00.966 --> 24:03.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because cable television, for all of its ills, 24:03.000 --> 24:04.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% has sort of brought us together. 24:04.966 --> 24:07.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And now they're aware of the reporting that you did 24:07.166 --> 24:08.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where they may not have been once upon a time. 24:08.566 --> 24:10.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And from The New York Times' perspective, 24:10.033 --> 24:11.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% more readers in the middle of the country, 24:11.700 --> 24:14.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% however you define that, it's probably not a bad thing. 24:14.033 --> 24:15.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah. Not a bad thing. 24:15.300 --> 24:17.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And not a bad thing for people to see reporters 24:17.133 --> 24:19.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% talk about how they got stories. 24:19.366 --> 24:21.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why they thought a story was important 24:21.600 --> 24:23.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or what they think a story means. 24:23.100 --> 24:24.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, that's the best part of those cable shows 24:24.933 --> 24:26.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is you talking about the process. 24:26.866 --> 24:28.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like a fourth grader in math class, 24:28.333 --> 24:30.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% showing us your work, right? Which I think is kind of great. 24:30.866 --> 24:32.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have two minutes left. 24:32.100 --> 24:33.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You grew up in Vermont, 24:33.600 --> 24:35.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you went to a small college in Maine, Bowdoin College. 24:35.233 --> 24:36.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 24:36.466 --> 24:37.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And then you went overseas to teach. 24:37.133 --> 24:37.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Katie] Yeah. 24:37.733 --> 24:38.666 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 24:38.666 --> 24:41.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You did not think that your life 24:41.266 --> 24:42.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was gonna be about journalism 24:42.500 --> 24:44.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the time that you left Bowdoin College, 24:44.100 --> 24:45.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or certainly at the time 24:45.233 --> 24:46.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you were growing up in Vermont 24:46.333 --> 24:47.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and before you went to college. 24:47.566 --> 24:49.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, I didn't know any reporters in Vermont. 24:49.466 --> 24:51.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I didn't read The New York Times growing up. 24:51.566 --> 24:54.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like most people, I read my local news. 24:54.166 --> 24:58.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I read the Rutland Herald in Vermont, so no. 25:00.133 --> 25:01.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But I was in Beijing 25:01.566 --> 25:04.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I knew a lot of expats who were reporters. 25:04.866 --> 25:06.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% My boyfriend at the time worked at The China Daily. 25:06.966 --> 25:09.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was, you know, it seemed like an interesting job. 25:09.733 --> 25:11.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But then after 9/11, 25:11.433 --> 25:13.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we were all trying to get information 25:13.200 --> 25:14.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about what had happened, 25:14.966 --> 25:18.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I was just calling people and gathering info, 25:18.333 --> 25:21.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I, you know, I figured out I could make that into a story. 25:21.566 --> 25:23.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And after that experience, 25:23.433 --> 25:27.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I was like, this is a kind of extraordinary job. 25:27.033 --> 25:29.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I sit around all day on the phone calling people 25:29.900 --> 25:31.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I can ask them kind of anything I want. 25:31.800 --> 25:35.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They don't have to answer, but I get to ask. 25:35.000 --> 25:36.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And then if the information's compelling, 25:36.766 --> 25:38.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I can put it together in a story. 25:38.566 --> 25:40.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it can help people understand what's going on. 25:40.800 --> 25:42.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's great. 25:42.000 --> 25:43.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I love that you came to it organically. 25:43.000 --> 25:43.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I think that's great. 25:43.866 --> 25:45.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We're out of time. 25:45.133 --> 25:46.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Katie Benner, thank you so much for being here. 25:46.400 --> 25:47.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Thank you for having me. 25:47.666 --> 25:48.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I really enjoyed talking about it. 25:48.866 --> 25:49.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Katie Benner, everybody. Give her a big hand. 25:49.666 --> 25:51.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauds) 25:51.733 --> 25:54.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:54.000 --> 25:58.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 25:58.000 --> 26:00.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:00.133 --> 26:02.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Q&As with our audience and guests, 26:02.033 --> 26:04.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:04.800 --> 26:07.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I grew up in a very blue collar family. 26:07.333 --> 26:08.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% My dad worked in a factory 26:08.733 --> 26:11.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and my mom worked in a daycare center, 26:11.966 --> 26:14.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which I think are very honorable and good jobs. 26:14.933 --> 26:16.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% However, I understand that I'm privileged 26:16.666 --> 26:19.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to sit in an air conditioned office, seated, 26:19.800 --> 26:23.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that my job is to think and to type. 26:23.800 --> 26:26.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 26:26.700 --> 26:30.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 26:30.033 --> 26:32.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:32.600 --> 26:35.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 26:35.100 --> 26:37.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and by Christine and Philip Dial.