1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:02,933 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 2 00:00:02,933 --> 00:00:06,300 is provided in part by, HillCo Partners, 3 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,300 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 4 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:11,333 Claire and Carl Stuart, 5 00:00:11,333 --> 00:00:13,533 and by Christine and Philip Dial. 6 00:00:15,633 --> 00:00:16,800 - I'm Evan Smith. 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,433 She's a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter 8 00:00:18,433 --> 00:00:21,933 for The New York Times who covers the Department of Justice, 9 00:00:21,933 --> 00:00:25,733 a job that used to be important, but kind of boring. 10 00:00:25,733 --> 00:00:27,366 Not anymore, which is why 11 00:00:27,366 --> 00:00:29,366 you can't turn on the television these days 12 00:00:29,366 --> 00:00:30,700 without seeing her. 13 00:00:30,700 --> 00:00:33,500 She's Katie Benner. This is "Overheard." 14 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:34,766 (soft music) 15 00:00:34,766 --> 00:00:37,666 A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 16 00:00:37,666 --> 00:00:39,600 You really turn the conversation around 17 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,800 about what leadership should be about. 18 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,100 Are we blowing this? 19 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:44,866 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 20 00:00:44,866 --> 00:00:46,900 by giving in to the attention junkie? 21 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:48,633 As an industry, we have an obligation 22 00:00:48,633 --> 00:00:50,133 to hold ourselves to the same standards 23 00:00:50,133 --> 00:00:51,600 that we hold everybody else. 24 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,233 This is "Overheard." 25 00:00:53,233 --> 00:00:56,266 (audience applauds) 26 00:00:56,266 --> 00:00:58,000 Katie Benner, welcome. It's nice to have you here. 27 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,166 - Oh, thank you so much for having me. 28 00:00:59,166 --> 00:01:00,466 - Thank you for being here. 29 00:01:00,466 --> 00:01:02,600 What a moment we are in with all the news. 30 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,066 And it's specifically the stuff 31 00:01:04,066 --> 00:01:06,066 that you are charged with covering by The Times. 32 00:01:06,066 --> 00:01:10,200 Could you have imagined a year ago or five years ago 33 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,600 that you would be as busy, and on top of, 34 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,666 or at the center of, so much as you are today? 35 00:01:14,666 --> 00:01:16,300 - You know, no, absolutely not. 36 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:18,900 And it's not just a lot of news, it's really historic news 37 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:20,966 because what's decided in the next, you know, 38 00:01:20,966 --> 00:01:22,866 12 to 24 to 36 months 39 00:01:22,866 --> 00:01:25,233 of some of these cases go to the Supreme Court. 40 00:01:25,233 --> 00:01:28,566 We're really writing history right now in a big way. 41 00:01:28,566 --> 00:01:29,833 - Yeah, and it's a legal thing 42 00:01:29,833 --> 00:01:31,300 on the one hand, as you point out, 43 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:34,366 but there's also an election that's happening not behind it, 44 00:01:34,366 --> 00:01:35,866 but in some ways adjacent to it. 45 00:01:35,866 --> 00:01:38,666 And so history is being made kind of in real time 46 00:01:38,666 --> 00:01:40,800 and it's continuing to be made. 47 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,833 And I frankly don't know, and maybe you don't know 48 00:01:42,833 --> 00:01:43,800 when it's gonna end. 49 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:44,633 - No, we do not. 50 00:01:44,633 --> 00:01:46,133 - Right. 51 00:01:46,133 --> 00:01:48,066 So the number of indictments of the former President, 52 00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:50,866 if I'm correct, is 91, right? 53 00:01:50,866 --> 00:01:54,533 It's two federal cases and it's two state cases, right? 54 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:56,033 - Yes, that's correct. 55 00:01:56,033 --> 00:02:00,333 - It's 40 indictments in one of the two federal cases 56 00:02:00,333 --> 00:02:02,700 related to the classified documents. 57 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:07,066 It's four indictments on the January 6th insurrection. 58 00:02:07,066 --> 00:02:12,066 In the state cases, there's 13 in the state of New York. 59 00:02:13,133 --> 00:02:15,166 No, the 13 is in Georgia. Is in Georgia. 60 00:02:15,166 --> 00:02:19,633 This is the question of election fraud, potentially. 61 00:02:19,633 --> 00:02:21,866 And then there's 30 in the state of New York 62 00:02:21,866 --> 00:02:24,033 for falsifying business documents, right? 63 00:02:24,033 --> 00:02:27,300 I mean, that's just, under any other circumstances, 64 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:28,700 or at any other time, 65 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:31,133 people would just be gobsmacked about this. 66 00:02:31,133 --> 00:02:32,400 And yet there sort of has been 67 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,466 this like acceptance of this as the new normal. 68 00:02:35,466 --> 00:02:37,800 - Well, it's the new normal for Donald Trump, 69 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,033 and we're hoping that it does not become the new normal 70 00:02:40,033 --> 00:02:42,333 for American democracy or for the presidency. 71 00:02:42,333 --> 00:02:44,733 But for him, over the past, you know, six years, 72 00:02:44,733 --> 00:02:46,600 this is the norm that he created. 73 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,466 So certainly for him that's true. 74 00:02:48,466 --> 00:02:50,166 - Say more about that new abnormal, 75 00:02:50,166 --> 00:02:51,666 or the new norm that he created. 76 00:02:51,666 --> 00:02:53,866 - You know, so one of the interesting things about Trump 77 00:02:53,866 --> 00:02:55,666 is that so many of the things that he spoke about, 78 00:02:55,666 --> 00:02:57,433 so many of the things that he did 79 00:02:57,433 --> 00:02:58,833 would've once been considered 80 00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:01,733 the fringe in American politics, or even the far right. 81 00:03:01,733 --> 00:03:04,100 But because he was the president of the United States, 82 00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:06,066 because he was elected by the voters, 83 00:03:06,066 --> 00:03:10,166 just that position has mainstreamed a lot of those ideas, 84 00:03:10,166 --> 00:03:12,366 including the idea the presidency 85 00:03:12,366 --> 00:03:15,033 is far more imperial than anybody had ever thought. 86 00:03:15,033 --> 00:03:16,266 Now, one of the things 87 00:03:16,266 --> 00:03:17,666 that we're gonna see in this election, 88 00:03:17,666 --> 00:03:18,900 it's going to be a referendum on those ideas. 89 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:20,933 Is that what the American people want? 90 00:03:20,933 --> 00:03:22,233 Is that what we believe in? 91 00:03:22,233 --> 00:03:24,033 And that's one of the big questions. 92 00:03:24,033 --> 00:03:27,300 So all of these indictments, they're a way of saying 93 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:28,800 yes, the criminal justice system 94 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,500 is looking at whether or not he committed wrongdoing, 95 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:32,766 whether or not he broke the law. 96 00:03:32,766 --> 00:03:34,500 And then the American people are saying, 97 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:35,766 does that matter to us? 98 00:03:35,766 --> 00:03:37,433 - Right. Do you think the American people 99 00:03:37,433 --> 00:03:38,666 is paying attention to this? 100 00:03:38,666 --> 00:03:40,500 I mean, we're painting with a broad brush here 101 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:42,433 when we talk about the American people. 102 00:03:42,433 --> 00:03:43,933 But I ask this 103 00:03:43,933 --> 00:03:46,533 because those of us who are in the media business 104 00:03:46,533 --> 00:03:48,900 or are interested in politics naturally, 105 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:51,300 you know, we gravitate to information 106 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:52,800 about something like this, 107 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,733 but I wonder if out there, the vast majority of the country 108 00:03:55,733 --> 00:03:57,300 is even tuned in on this. 109 00:03:57,300 --> 00:03:59,666 It's the way that we sometimes say Twitter is not real life. 110 00:03:59,666 --> 00:04:01,166 Now, I guess X. 111 00:04:01,166 --> 00:04:02,700 You know, some very small percentage of people 112 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:05,333 we know in the world are on that platform. 113 00:04:05,333 --> 00:04:07,966 And yet it has this larger significance 114 00:04:07,966 --> 00:04:09,700 to those of us who are down the well. 115 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:11,433 I wonder if we're down the well on this. 116 00:04:11,433 --> 00:04:13,000 - You know, I think we're all a little bit down the well 117 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,566 whenever we're covering anything 118 00:04:14,566 --> 00:04:15,900 and we're really invested in it. 119 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:16,966 And that could be a business story, 120 00:04:16,966 --> 00:04:18,200 that could be a politics story. 121 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,900 So certainly that is always true. 122 00:04:19,900 --> 00:04:21,266 But I think that there is something 123 00:04:21,266 --> 00:04:22,300 interesting about Donald Trump. 124 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:23,933 He has a gravitational pull. 125 00:04:23,933 --> 00:04:25,933 He is not the president of the United States today. 126 00:04:25,933 --> 00:04:27,366 And when you look at the coverage, 127 00:04:27,366 --> 00:04:29,366 when you look at how people speak about politics, 128 00:04:29,366 --> 00:04:31,666 you would not necessarily know that 129 00:04:31,666 --> 00:04:34,233 from the number of stories written about Donald Trump 130 00:04:34,233 --> 00:04:36,600 versus the number of stories written about Joe Biden 131 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:37,766 or really any other person 132 00:04:37,766 --> 00:04:40,200 who is actually in political office today. 133 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,366 He has an enormous gravitational pull 134 00:04:42,366 --> 00:04:44,566 and he wants to be center stage. 135 00:04:44,566 --> 00:04:45,966 He wishes to be. 136 00:04:45,966 --> 00:04:48,233 So that combination does make him somebody 137 00:04:48,233 --> 00:04:49,633 who's a little bit more compelling 138 00:04:49,633 --> 00:04:51,300 and who's somebody who gets a lot of attention. 139 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:52,600 - So, are we blowing this? 140 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,600 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 141 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,566 by giving into the attention junkie? 142 00:04:56,566 --> 00:04:58,633 I mean, I actually could make the argument 143 00:04:58,633 --> 00:05:01,866 that there is no more important story right now, 144 00:05:01,866 --> 00:05:04,600 especially if you align it with the future of our democracy, 145 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,266 than what happens to this guy. 146 00:05:07,266 --> 00:05:10,600 Does he exit the stage? Does he go quietly? 147 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,866 He probably goes loudly if he goes. 148 00:05:12,866 --> 00:05:14,333 The future in some ways 149 00:05:14,333 --> 00:05:16,833 rests on the resolution of this story. 150 00:05:16,833 --> 00:05:19,000 Maybe we should be giving him this much attention. 151 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,466 - You know, so I think you're touching on something 152 00:05:20,466 --> 00:05:22,566 that is a debate that's ongoing inside of newsrooms. 153 00:05:22,566 --> 00:05:23,500 - Every newsroom? 154 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:24,900 - Every newsroom, every day 155 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:26,466 if you're covering the upcoming election 156 00:05:26,466 --> 00:05:28,166 and if you're covering these cases. 157 00:05:28,166 --> 00:05:31,700 They're of enormous historic import. 158 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:33,466 So it's not whether or not we cover them, 159 00:05:33,466 --> 00:05:34,433 they must be covered. 160 00:05:34,433 --> 00:05:35,866 But really, how? 161 00:05:35,866 --> 00:05:39,866 Is this a time for, you know, just covering the news, 162 00:05:39,866 --> 00:05:41,100 the who, what, when, where, and why? 163 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:43,133 Or is this a time for context? 164 00:05:43,133 --> 00:05:44,600 Do we need a big story 165 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,633 by somebody like a Peter Baker at The New York Times 166 00:05:46,633 --> 00:05:48,433 to put this into historic context? 167 00:05:48,433 --> 00:05:50,433 Do we need sharp opinion pieces 168 00:05:50,433 --> 00:05:53,166 that we highlight more than we might have in the past 169 00:05:53,166 --> 00:05:56,100 to give people, again, more context? 170 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:59,200 Because just simply saying, simply repeating 171 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,733 what the former President is saying in his social media, 172 00:06:01,733 --> 00:06:03,366 I don't think is going to cut it. 173 00:06:03,366 --> 00:06:04,733 - Well, and the existential anxiety, 174 00:06:04,733 --> 00:06:06,400 I think, just to stay in newsrooms for a second, 175 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:07,833 we'll get out of newsrooms here in a minute, 176 00:06:07,833 --> 00:06:11,300 but just to stay in newsrooms is, you know, 177 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:16,300 when you have his comments, quotes in a story, 178 00:06:17,433 --> 00:06:20,133 if you interview him either on tape or live, 179 00:06:20,133 --> 00:06:24,200 the torrent of falsehoods comes at you 180 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,466 like a fire hose turned up to the highest setting. 181 00:06:26,466 --> 00:06:27,933 What are the obligations 182 00:06:27,933 --> 00:06:31,200 of people in the news business in that moment 183 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,700 to fact check him in real time, 184 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:35,133 or to correct, contextualize, as you said? 185 00:06:35,133 --> 00:06:37,500 We as a business didn't seem 186 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:40,300 to do a particularly good job of that the first time, right? 187 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,300 And so that's the question and the challenge 188 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:43,500 going into the next election cycle. 189 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:45,666 - Yeah, and I don't know that it's necessary 190 00:06:45,666 --> 00:06:47,566 to have him on live television 191 00:06:47,566 --> 00:06:49,666 and to treat him as somebody 192 00:06:49,666 --> 00:06:53,100 who was going to go into an interview in good faith. 193 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:54,366 But it's also very, but, you know, 194 00:06:54,366 --> 00:06:55,700 I think that cuts both ways though, 195 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:57,433 because after he was elected, 196 00:06:57,433 --> 00:06:59,866 I had not listened to a Trump rally 197 00:06:59,866 --> 00:07:01,400 during the election season. 198 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,666 I hadn't really paid that much attention 199 00:07:03,666 --> 00:07:05,000 to what he sounded like. 200 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,700 And I remember when I moved to Washington 201 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:08,066 to cover the Justice Department, 202 00:07:08,066 --> 00:07:09,600 I was working late one night, 203 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,333 and it was my first time ever hearing an entire Trump rally 204 00:07:12,333 --> 00:07:14,933 because we played them all in the office, all of the time. 205 00:07:14,933 --> 00:07:16,566 And I was really stunned 206 00:07:16,566 --> 00:07:19,233 because when you take little snippets of what he says 207 00:07:19,233 --> 00:07:20,433 and you put them in an article, 208 00:07:20,433 --> 00:07:23,266 as a quote, and with more context, et cetera, 209 00:07:23,266 --> 00:07:26,333 in many ways that normalizes what he's doing too. 210 00:07:26,333 --> 00:07:29,733 And hearing him, and actually hearing how he speaks, 211 00:07:29,733 --> 00:07:32,133 hearing his rambling, his disjointed thoughts, 212 00:07:32,133 --> 00:07:34,266 I was really, I was incredibly shocked. 213 00:07:34,266 --> 00:07:35,766 I was taken aback. 214 00:07:35,766 --> 00:07:39,033 I did not realize just how really beyond rhetorically, 215 00:07:39,033 --> 00:07:41,000 beyond the pale he was as a president. 216 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,366 - So how do you do justice to covering a Trump rally? 217 00:07:43,366 --> 00:07:46,300 Because look, the polls right now have him, not only ahead, 218 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,400 but miles ahead of his competitors, 219 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,333 just on the basis of that, 220 00:07:50,333 --> 00:07:52,266 you have to assume it's his nomination to lose. 221 00:07:52,266 --> 00:07:53,700 Now things could happen. 222 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:55,500 So we're probably heading into another time 223 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:56,933 when those Trump rallies 224 00:07:56,933 --> 00:07:58,800 are going to be a feature of all of our lives, 225 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,733 so what does the news business do if by taking quotes out 226 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:03,000 you're actually not doing justice? 227 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,266 - You know, I don't have an answer for this. 228 00:08:06,266 --> 00:08:07,600 But I can tell you the kinds of stories 229 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,533 that I would really be curious to read 230 00:08:09,533 --> 00:08:11,600 as just as a consumer of news, 231 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,633 I would love to read some stories about this rhetoric 232 00:08:13,633 --> 00:08:15,933 and where it is in history, what it draws from, 233 00:08:15,933 --> 00:08:17,733 what are the antecedents 234 00:08:17,733 --> 00:08:19,033 to some of the things that he's saying. 235 00:08:19,033 --> 00:08:22,833 He's not coming up with ideas in a vacuum. 236 00:08:22,833 --> 00:08:24,233 He's coming up with ideas 237 00:08:24,233 --> 00:08:26,400 that are very, very much, much 238 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,900 part of strains of American thought 239 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:31,633 that have been, again, once considered very extreme. 240 00:08:31,633 --> 00:08:33,100 Where do they come from? How do they operate? 241 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:34,433 Why do we want them. Why do we have them? 242 00:08:34,433 --> 00:08:36,200 And why do people support them? 243 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,700 I would love to read more about that. 244 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:39,266 - The complicated part of this, Katie, 245 00:08:39,266 --> 00:08:40,800 and again, I want to get off of this 246 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,400 and get back to the question the indictments in a second, 247 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,366 is that when someone from The New York Times, you, anybody, 248 00:08:47,366 --> 00:08:51,766 talks about the President's language or ideas as extreme, 249 00:08:51,766 --> 00:08:54,300 you're against him, right? 250 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:55,566 - Right. 251 00:08:55,566 --> 00:08:57,100 - You're oppositional or you are the enemy. 252 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:59,766 And this is the way we've litigated the relationship 253 00:08:59,766 --> 00:09:02,300 between the media and people in politics 254 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,166 since he was elected, right? 255 00:09:04,166 --> 00:09:06,166 It's us versus them. 256 00:09:06,166 --> 00:09:08,700 And if you describe, even if it's accurate, 257 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:11,700 ideas as extreme, well, you're now part of the problem. 258 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:13,033 - Well, I mean, it's also a little bit different 259 00:09:13,033 --> 00:09:14,166 because he was the president 260 00:09:14,166 --> 00:09:16,533 and you can't emphasize that enough. 261 00:09:16,533 --> 00:09:18,266 You know, if there were a different person 262 00:09:18,266 --> 00:09:23,266 speaking about a far right ideology, for example, 263 00:09:24,133 --> 00:09:25,633 it wouldn't matter as much 264 00:09:25,633 --> 00:09:28,066 if they were a more fringe character, 265 00:09:28,066 --> 00:09:29,366 but because this is a human being 266 00:09:29,366 --> 00:09:30,700 who was the president of the United States, 267 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:32,600 he's actually enabled 268 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,600 what was once considered fringe and extreme to be part of 269 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,200 one of our two mainstream political parties in America life. 270 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,366 - It's in the national bloodstream now. 271 00:09:41,366 --> 00:09:42,300 - It's in the national bloodstream 272 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:43,800 and it is fully taken over 273 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,933 a large swath of the Republican Party. 274 00:09:45,933 --> 00:09:47,466 And so it's true. 275 00:09:47,466 --> 00:09:50,300 How do you cover that without there is an inherent critique? 276 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:51,733 There's an inherent critique 277 00:09:51,733 --> 00:09:54,966 saying this is in some ways undermining democracy. 278 00:09:54,966 --> 00:09:57,600 This is something that comes from 279 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,000 a far right tradition in the United States 280 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,300 that we have tried to push out of civil discourse 281 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,500 and everyday life for decades and decades and decades 282 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:07,000 since the Civil War. 283 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,666 I mean, the minute you say these things, you're right. 284 00:10:08,666 --> 00:10:10,333 You are inherently critiquing, 285 00:10:10,333 --> 00:10:15,333 not anymore a fringe person, but an entire political party. 286 00:10:16,733 --> 00:10:19,100 And that is something that's really difficult to do. 287 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:22,666 And I mean, but it's something that has to be done 288 00:10:22,666 --> 00:10:24,166 because the reality is 289 00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:27,533 that a mainstream party has embraced fringe ideas. 290 00:10:27,533 --> 00:10:29,200 - Yeah, and that mainstream party 291 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:30,466 that has embraced fringe ideas 292 00:10:30,466 --> 00:10:32,700 very well might win the White House again. 293 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:34,533 And we're gonna be back to the things that we saw, 294 00:10:34,533 --> 00:10:38,366 maybe worse than we saw in that respect before. 295 00:10:38,366 --> 00:10:40,666 So back to the indictments, 91 indictments, four cases, 296 00:10:40,666 --> 00:10:43,133 give us the sequence of this. 297 00:10:43,133 --> 00:10:45,233 From what we know today, 298 00:10:45,233 --> 00:10:48,100 how is this likely to play out sequentially? 299 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:51,033 - Yeah, so even though it was the first case brought, 300 00:10:51,033 --> 00:10:53,900 I think New York is inclined to go last. 301 00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:56,133 We've already seen, you know, 302 00:10:56,133 --> 00:10:58,566 we've already seen New York say, 303 00:10:58,566 --> 00:11:01,900 we don't need to bring this case to trial right away. 304 00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:03,400 We defer to the federal government. 305 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,766 We think that those cases take precedence 306 00:11:05,766 --> 00:11:07,100 and we want to see how they play out. 307 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:08,866 - Take precedence or are stronger. 308 00:11:08,866 --> 00:11:11,366 There was criticism of Alvin Bragg, the DA, 309 00:11:11,366 --> 00:11:13,533 who brought the first set of cases in New York 310 00:11:13,533 --> 00:11:15,533 for putting a weak, 311 00:11:15,533 --> 00:11:18,033 what was perceived to be a weak or weaker case, 312 00:11:18,033 --> 00:11:19,766 than some of the others out front first, 313 00:11:19,766 --> 00:11:22,900 so that people dismissed the seriousness of it, right? 314 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:25,666 - Yes, you know, whether or not he was accurately accounting 315 00:11:25,666 --> 00:11:27,633 for how he spent his campaign money. 316 00:11:27,633 --> 00:11:29,133 Absolutely. 317 00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:30,633 And so people were saying that that case was weak. 318 00:11:30,633 --> 00:11:33,566 I mean, this is the thing about our criminal justice system. 319 00:11:33,566 --> 00:11:35,100 We have a lot of rules 320 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,366 and we know how everything is supposed to happen. 321 00:11:37,366 --> 00:11:39,600 But at the same time, it's a system made up of human beings 322 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,033 with their own flaws and biases and assumptions. 323 00:11:44,033 --> 00:11:46,900 So that's what makes these things so unpredictable. 324 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:48,533 You can have all the pundits in the world say, 325 00:11:48,533 --> 00:11:50,766 this case is strong, this case is weak, 326 00:11:50,766 --> 00:11:52,566 this is how it should play out. 327 00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:54,100 - We'll know when we know. 328 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:55,733 - We'll know when know because it's a jury of human beings. 329 00:11:55,733 --> 00:11:57,400 - Right. - And so who come to this, 330 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,733 no matter how impartial they want to be. 331 00:11:58,733 --> 00:12:00,066 - So New York goes last. 332 00:12:00,066 --> 00:12:01,566 - New York will probably go last. 333 00:12:01,566 --> 00:12:03,366 And yes, like there are people who said that case was weak 334 00:12:03,366 --> 00:12:05,100 in part because of what it was about, 335 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:08,100 you know, a bookkeeping case, I think is the critique. 336 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:11,133 What's happening at the federal level, you know, 337 00:12:11,133 --> 00:12:14,400 you're seeing basically Georgia, Fani Willis, 338 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,700 and Jack Smith in Washington DC, 339 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,666 almost in a neck-and-neck race 340 00:12:19,666 --> 00:12:22,433 to see who will bring their cases first. 341 00:12:22,433 --> 00:12:25,200 And the cases involve much of the same material. 342 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,633 Was the President, former President of the United States, 343 00:12:27,633 --> 00:12:31,800 while president, trying to undo a free and fair election? 344 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,000 That is the question. 345 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,366 And if the answer is yes, 346 00:12:34,366 --> 00:12:39,166 that is inherently an anti-Constitutional thing to do. 347 00:12:39,166 --> 00:12:42,400 And so, is that who we want for president 348 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,600 becomes the next question? 349 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,500 But the jury may not actually decide 350 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:49,100 before we get to the election. 351 00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:51,600 And that is what is so interesting. 352 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,566 And so, again, very historic. 353 00:12:53,566 --> 00:12:54,666 - So I asked you about sequence, 354 00:12:54,666 --> 00:12:56,566 let me ask you about severity. 355 00:12:56,566 --> 00:12:59,400 In your mind as a reporter, which of these four cases 356 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,400 sets up for you as potentially 357 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,500 most problematic for the former President? 358 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:04,966 - I mean, most problematic for the former, 359 00:13:04,966 --> 00:13:08,866 I think of them as, what's most problematic for our country? 360 00:13:08,866 --> 00:13:11,033 And, you know, I think that, 361 00:13:11,033 --> 00:13:12,366 I would say probably least 362 00:13:12,366 --> 00:13:14,300 would be the classified documents case. 363 00:13:14,300 --> 00:13:15,666 No matter who wins, 364 00:13:15,666 --> 00:13:17,533 keep in mind, all these cases will be appealed, 365 00:13:17,533 --> 00:13:20,966 I cannot see the Supreme Court wanting to take that case up. 366 00:13:20,966 --> 00:13:23,200 It's a case about whether or not 367 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,300 classified information was mishandled. 368 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,766 There's tremendous body of law. 369 00:13:27,766 --> 00:13:30,100 Tons and tons and tons of other cases. 370 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:32,633 This is, again, not something the Supreme Court will take. 371 00:13:32,633 --> 00:13:34,700 So if he wins, he wins. If he loses, he loses. 372 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:38,433 And that's kind of it. And I don't see that going further. 373 00:13:38,433 --> 00:13:40,666 And it's a case that would be that the government, 374 00:13:40,666 --> 00:13:43,633 based on the evidence we see in the affidavits 375 00:13:43,633 --> 00:13:45,700 and in the court filings, it's very strong. 376 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:50,466 However, the January 6th case, and the Fani Willis case, 377 00:13:50,466 --> 00:13:52,900 there is not a tremendous body of law. 378 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,766 And there's not a lot of court precedent 379 00:13:55,766 --> 00:13:57,466 for something like this. 380 00:13:57,466 --> 00:14:00,466 I can see that getting appealed no matter who wins. 381 00:14:00,466 --> 00:14:04,200 And I can see the Supreme Court wanting to weigh in. 382 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,200 And it could really chart a lot for the country, 383 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,033 particularly vis-a-vis executive power and for Donald Trump, 384 00:14:13,033 --> 00:14:14,533 - Well, this is a Supreme Court, 385 00:14:14,533 --> 00:14:17,200 that if you just look at the makeup of the court right now, 386 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,166 you have to guess is at least open to the idea 387 00:14:20,166 --> 00:14:22,233 that the President's side 388 00:14:22,233 --> 00:14:26,100 might be the legitimate side to take, right? 389 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:27,366 - I would say open to the idea 390 00:14:27,366 --> 00:14:29,633 of a strong executive is probably accurate, yeah. 391 00:14:29,633 --> 00:14:32,900 - Yeah, so, you know, the charge on all of this, Katie, 392 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:34,900 'cause you've heard this, as we've all heard this, 393 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:37,233 is they've weaponized the Justice Department. 394 00:14:37,233 --> 00:14:38,600 This is becoming a talking point 395 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,133 in the presidential campaign. 396 00:14:40,133 --> 00:14:41,566 Not just his campaign, but other people's campaigns, 397 00:14:41,566 --> 00:14:43,866 who seek the favor of his supporters, 398 00:14:43,866 --> 00:14:47,733 hoping that he falls away and they inherit those folks. 399 00:14:47,733 --> 00:14:49,500 What does that exactly mean? 400 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,733 I mean, my understanding as I was growing up, basic civics, 401 00:14:52,733 --> 00:14:54,866 is that the Justice Department is independent, 402 00:14:54,866 --> 00:14:57,400 that nobody could weaponize it for political purposes. 403 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,666 - Yeah, so, you know, 404 00:14:58,666 --> 00:14:59,833 I mean, historically, the Justice Department 405 00:14:59,833 --> 00:15:02,700 wasn't always politically neutral. 406 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:05,400 It was weaponized many, many, many times in our past. 407 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,866 I think most significantly during the Civil Rights movement 408 00:15:07,866 --> 00:15:09,066 when you had the FBI 409 00:15:09,066 --> 00:15:12,033 spying on MLK, on Martin Luther King Jr 410 00:15:12,033 --> 00:15:14,400 and trying to undo the Civil rights movement. 411 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,066 You had, you know, the former FBI director 412 00:15:18,066 --> 00:15:21,800 working with presidents to basically gather oppo research. 413 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,900 So we don't have a pristine past. 414 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:25,900 But post-Watergate, you're right. 415 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:27,933 A lot of reforms were put in place 416 00:15:27,933 --> 00:15:29,466 to make sure that did not happen again 417 00:15:29,466 --> 00:15:31,633 because the dangers of it 418 00:15:31,633 --> 00:15:34,466 became so clear in the '60s and '70s, 419 00:15:34,466 --> 00:15:36,933 culminating in Richard Nixon's 420 00:15:36,933 --> 00:15:39,100 attempts to use the Justice Department 421 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:41,100 to gain power and be reelected. 422 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:41,900 - Right. 423 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:43,400 - So that said, 424 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,200 what Donald Trump tried to do during his presidency 425 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,633 was to undo those Watergate error reforms. 426 00:15:50,633 --> 00:15:52,333 He did not adhere to them. 427 00:15:52,333 --> 00:15:54,100 I don't even know if he consciously thought, woke up 428 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:55,933 and said, I'm going to undo the Watergate era reforms. 429 00:15:55,933 --> 00:15:57,600 I really don't think that's the way he operates. 430 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,133 - Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. Yeah. 431 00:16:00,133 --> 00:16:03,400 - But he did ignore them and he flouted them. 432 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,866 And he desperately wanted 433 00:16:04,866 --> 00:16:06,900 to weaponize the Justice Department to retain power. 434 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:08,733 - Well, the reality is that his anger, 435 00:16:08,733 --> 00:16:10,766 first at Jeff Sessions and then at Bill Barr 436 00:16:10,766 --> 00:16:14,033 resulting in both departing the job of Attorney General, 437 00:16:14,033 --> 00:16:16,433 was in part that he wanted the Attorney General 438 00:16:16,433 --> 00:16:17,966 to be the president's lawyer. 439 00:16:17,966 --> 00:16:19,466 - Absolutely. 440 00:16:19,466 --> 00:16:20,966 - And not the country's lawyer, in essence, right? 441 00:16:20,966 --> 00:16:21,900 - Absolutely. 442 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:23,133 - And you know, Merrick Garland, 443 00:16:23,133 --> 00:16:24,266 as we're sitting here today in the, you know, 444 00:16:24,266 --> 00:16:26,333 latter mid part of September, 445 00:16:26,333 --> 00:16:28,633 Merrick Garland just testified in Congress 446 00:16:28,633 --> 00:16:31,900 in which he said expressly, I am not the President's lawyer. 447 00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:33,133 - Yeah. 448 00:16:33,133 --> 00:16:34,433 - He, you know, sort of said that flat out, 449 00:16:34,433 --> 00:16:36,700 but there's only the evidence of, 450 00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:38,400 as I said, Sessions and Barr that the President, 451 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,200 former President thought differently about that. 452 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,833 - Yeah, well, and then he wanted to put 453 00:16:41,833 --> 00:16:43,833 a functionary named Jeff Clark 454 00:16:43,833 --> 00:16:45,166 in the role of the Attorney General 455 00:16:45,166 --> 00:16:46,833 in the 11th hour to overturn the election. 456 00:16:46,833 --> 00:16:48,266 So he really did make explicit 457 00:16:48,266 --> 00:16:50,866 what he wanted the AG to do for him. 458 00:16:50,866 --> 00:16:52,833 Garland is an interesting figure. 459 00:16:52,833 --> 00:16:54,466 I think the jury is definitely out 460 00:16:54,466 --> 00:16:56,100 about how history's going to judge him. 461 00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:57,600 - [Evan] Yeah. 462 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,866 - 10 years from now, I think we'll still be working it out. 463 00:16:59,866 --> 00:17:02,566 He had such a belief in process. 464 00:17:02,566 --> 00:17:06,100 He had such a belief that if you just follow the rules, 465 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:07,966 everything will be okay. 466 00:17:07,966 --> 00:17:10,100 And I don't know that that's what's going to happen. 467 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:11,366 - Well, there's a certain, I mean, again, 468 00:17:11,366 --> 00:17:12,633 no disrespect to the Attorney General, 469 00:17:12,633 --> 00:17:14,333 there's naivete in that. 470 00:17:14,333 --> 00:17:15,600 I mean, the thing is the idea 471 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,800 that in the world that we're living in today, 472 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,400 that if you just play by the rules, it will all work out, 473 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,566 kind of seems quaint, right? 474 00:17:22,566 --> 00:17:23,800 - Yeah, well, it kind of reminds me 475 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,433 of Antigone a little bit, right, of course. 476 00:17:25,433 --> 00:17:26,933 You know, like the king's like, 477 00:17:26,933 --> 00:17:28,733 if I just keep following the rules, it'll be okay. 478 00:17:28,733 --> 00:17:30,366 But the rules are, you know, 479 00:17:30,366 --> 00:17:31,733 they're not fit for this moment. 480 00:17:31,733 --> 00:17:33,266 They're not fit for this wartime footing. 481 00:17:33,266 --> 00:17:34,966 They're not fit for what society wants. 482 00:17:34,966 --> 00:17:36,566 They're not fit for my own family. 483 00:17:36,566 --> 00:17:39,033 And then tragedy unfolds, of course. 484 00:17:40,166 --> 00:17:43,666 But his adherence to the rules is unshakeable 485 00:17:43,666 --> 00:17:45,233 and Garland is a little bit like that. 486 00:17:45,233 --> 00:17:46,566 - What is your sense as a reporter 487 00:17:46,566 --> 00:17:48,066 covering the Justice Department? 488 00:17:48,066 --> 00:17:50,266 Is the left more angry at Garland on a regular basis? 489 00:17:50,266 --> 00:17:51,966 Or is the right more angry at Garland? 490 00:17:51,966 --> 00:17:53,366 - Oh, I mean, lucky for Merrick Garland, 491 00:17:53,366 --> 00:17:54,300 everybody's mad at him all the time. 492 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:55,800 - I mean, seriously, right? 493 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,466 It's peak Merrick Garland, right? Everyone's mad at me. 494 00:17:58,466 --> 00:18:00,566 But the left has been really frustrated 495 00:18:00,566 --> 00:18:03,500 because they felt like he did not move quickly enough 496 00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,566 on matters related to the former President. 497 00:18:05,566 --> 00:18:08,100 - Right, and again, I think there was this belief 498 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:09,400 that, well, if the men and women, 499 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,800 the career people of the Justice Department 500 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,300 won't find the evidence to charge Donald Trump, 501 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,833 they will do it. 502 00:18:14,833 --> 00:18:17,133 And that's great. And I'm going to let them do this. 503 00:18:17,133 --> 00:18:19,733 Now, since appointing a special counsel, 504 00:18:19,733 --> 00:18:22,366 the January 6th case is the most interesting to me. 505 00:18:22,366 --> 00:18:25,166 Basically, Jack Smith came in in November. 506 00:18:25,166 --> 00:18:26,900 And everything we saw in the indictment, 507 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:30,533 we knew before he was appointed to be special counsel, 508 00:18:30,533 --> 00:18:33,600 there was not much new in that indictment from that time. 509 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,700 But what was new is a figure who came in 510 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:36,966 and specifically said, 511 00:18:36,966 --> 00:18:39,100 I'm going to get to the bottom of this with you 512 00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,133 and my name, Jack Smith, 513 00:18:41,133 --> 00:18:43,500 I will take responsibility for this. 514 00:18:45,666 --> 00:18:48,666 You know, federal employees, 515 00:18:50,433 --> 00:18:52,933 they work for an administration. 516 00:18:52,933 --> 00:18:55,400 And when the really tough decisions are made, 517 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,266 whether it's controversial prosecution, 518 00:18:58,266 --> 00:18:59,800 a public corruption case, 519 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,000 and inspecting an airplane to make sure it's safe, 520 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,500 you want a politically appointed head to sign off on that 521 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:07,666 when you are the civil servant. 522 00:19:07,666 --> 00:19:10,500 You don't want that. That's not what you signed up for. 523 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:12,633 Of course, it would take that kind of leadership, 524 00:19:12,633 --> 00:19:14,100 that kind of direct leadership 525 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,066 to get something like that over the finish line. 526 00:19:16,066 --> 00:19:18,900 It is such a difficult and hard thing to do. 527 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,333 Who's going to be hauled before Congress? Jack Smith. 528 00:19:21,333 --> 00:19:24,000 Not the men and women of the Justice Department 529 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,900 who Merrick Garland just thought would do it. 530 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:28,233 - But look, this is the job he signed up for. 531 00:19:28,233 --> 00:19:30,800 I mean, when you're asked to be the special counsel, 532 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,033 do you really have much of a choice? 533 00:19:32,033 --> 00:19:34,033 - No, and I think that he eagerly took the job. 534 00:19:34,033 --> 00:19:35,900 - Yeah. And so you and I were talking earlier today 535 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:37,833 about the fact that you got to The Times 536 00:19:37,833 --> 00:19:39,733 and switched beats to the Justice Department, 537 00:19:39,733 --> 00:19:42,600 kind of right at the beginning of Robert Mueller. 538 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,533 - Yes. 539 00:19:43,533 --> 00:19:45,000 - So you've had the opportunity 540 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,733 to observe Mueller up close and Jack Smith up close. 541 00:19:47,733 --> 00:19:48,966 Compare and contrast. 542 00:19:48,966 --> 00:19:50,566 - Well, I think that the big difference 543 00:19:50,566 --> 00:19:52,366 is the way the press is treated both men. 544 00:19:52,366 --> 00:19:57,100 I think that it is not unfair to say that the public, 545 00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:00,333 some parts of the press, a lot of columnists, 546 00:20:00,333 --> 00:20:05,333 a lot of Twitter were all decided when Mueller was appointed 547 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:08,500 that it meant the end of Donald Trump. 548 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:10,766 And, of course, as we know, it did not mean that. 549 00:20:10,766 --> 00:20:11,933 - Yeah. 550 00:20:11,933 --> 00:20:13,700 - So when Jack Smith was appointed, 551 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:17,100 everybody was far more conservative 552 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:18,766 in how they approached that news 553 00:20:18,766 --> 00:20:20,433 and what it would really mean 554 00:20:20,433 --> 00:20:22,500 for the former President. 555 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:23,966 - Well, Mueller had had a reputation 556 00:20:23,966 --> 00:20:26,633 that preceded his appointment at special counsel. 557 00:20:26,633 --> 00:20:28,500 That he was like, you know, Gary Cooper. 558 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:29,833 - Yes, it was appointing a rockstar. 559 00:20:29,833 --> 00:20:31,033 It was appointing like the man 560 00:20:31,033 --> 00:20:33,600 who helped the United States after 9/11. 561 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,466 He remade the FBI. 562 00:20:35,466 --> 00:20:40,066 He made it this extremely powerful counter-terrorism agency. 563 00:20:41,533 --> 00:20:42,833 And he was revered. I mean, that is really different. 564 00:20:42,833 --> 00:20:44,866 Jack Smith was also completely unknown. 565 00:20:44,866 --> 00:20:46,766 Nobody really knew anything about him. 566 00:20:46,766 --> 00:20:47,933 - Right. I mentioned The New York Times. 567 00:20:47,933 --> 00:20:49,433 So you got to The Times in '15. 568 00:20:49,433 --> 00:20:50,700 - [Katie] Yeah. 569 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:52,133 - And you've been in journalism since then. 570 00:20:52,133 --> 00:20:53,366 We'll come to your personal story in a second 571 00:20:53,366 --> 00:20:54,800 because I guess I think it's interesting 572 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,833 that you didn't necessarily start out in college 573 00:20:56,833 --> 00:20:58,066 or even right after college 574 00:20:58,066 --> 00:20:59,933 thinking this is what I wanted to do. 575 00:20:59,933 --> 00:21:01,566 But you got to The Times in '15. 576 00:21:01,566 --> 00:21:02,933 You were covering technology. 577 00:21:02,933 --> 00:21:04,466 - Yeah. 578 00:21:04,466 --> 00:21:05,933 - You switched over in '17 to the Justice Department. 579 00:21:05,933 --> 00:21:07,166 So you've been at this now 580 00:21:07,166 --> 00:21:09,700 for approaching a decade at The Times, 581 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,000 and longer than that in your career. 582 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,466 The business that we are in has changed and changed 583 00:21:14,466 --> 00:21:16,033 and changed and changed and changed. 584 00:21:16,033 --> 00:21:18,566 It's changing as we sit here. Reflect on that. 585 00:21:18,566 --> 00:21:23,033 - I mean, when I started in 2001, really, 586 00:21:23,033 --> 00:21:24,233 - Yeah. 587 00:21:24,233 --> 00:21:26,366 - the press had power, had a lot of power 588 00:21:26,366 --> 00:21:30,133 because it controlled who had a big public voice. 589 00:21:30,133 --> 00:21:31,600 - [Evan] Yep. 590 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,833 - So if you were a columnist for The Washington Post 591 00:21:33,833 --> 00:21:36,600 or The New York Times, it was a big, big deal. 592 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,233 You, an elite corps of people, 593 00:21:39,233 --> 00:21:42,600 got to spout their opinions into the public, 594 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:43,866 and that was it. 595 00:21:43,866 --> 00:21:45,366 And we all read it and absorbed it, 596 00:21:45,366 --> 00:21:47,866 especially on the opinion side. 597 00:21:47,866 --> 00:21:50,700 Now, because of social media, 598 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:52,533 everybody gets to be an opinion columnist. 599 00:21:52,533 --> 00:21:53,866 It's different. 600 00:21:53,866 --> 00:21:56,866 We've democratized it, for better or worse. 601 00:21:56,866 --> 00:21:58,800 And so while there is still a lot of prestige 602 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,100 in having that job, the power is really diffuse. 603 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:04,900 And on the reporting side too, 604 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:06,566 there's something similar going on. 605 00:22:06,566 --> 00:22:08,066 Like you can break news, 606 00:22:08,066 --> 00:22:10,633 you can be the only person who knows something, 607 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:12,300 but it's disseminated so quickly 608 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,133 you don't really have much control over it once it happens. 609 00:22:15,133 --> 00:22:19,400 And information, facts, with the spread of misinformation, 610 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,166 you might break news and you might have a fact, 611 00:22:22,166 --> 00:22:24,000 but it can get completely buried 612 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,100 and nobody will know what happened. 613 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:27,933 - Yeah. Well, another thing that I'm gonna mention, 614 00:22:27,933 --> 00:22:29,500 because of your presence, 615 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,533 your persistent presence on television these days, 616 00:22:32,533 --> 00:22:35,700 which you made a face, but you're good, I can say it, 617 00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:39,600 is that that didn't used to be part of the expectation. 618 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,100 - No, not at all. 619 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:43,500 - And now suddenly, you are so much better known, 620 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,733 and so much more recognizable 621 00:22:45,733 --> 00:22:48,733 as a consequence of your time on television. 622 00:22:48,733 --> 00:22:50,633 I wonder if that's a help or a hurt 623 00:22:50,633 --> 00:22:52,666 to the job that is your principal job. 624 00:22:52,666 --> 00:22:55,800 - Yikes. I mean, well, I had to buy a lot of shirts. 625 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,333 - I had to buy a lot of shirts. 626 00:22:57,333 --> 00:23:01,433 Okay. Well, wasn't the answer I was expecting, but go on. 627 00:23:01,433 --> 00:23:03,000 - I mean, like, if you've seen "Spotlight" 628 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,233 you know that journalists aren't known 629 00:23:04,233 --> 00:23:09,200 for their sartorial like, excellence, but. 630 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,800 Yeah, so that is, in DC, DC's a very TV driven place. 631 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,200 Like, politicians watch cable news, 632 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,500 people in the administration watch cable news. 633 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:20,733 So it's helpful in that people know who you are 634 00:23:20,733 --> 00:23:21,933 and they're willing 635 00:23:21,933 --> 00:23:23,100 to at least have a conversation with you, 636 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:24,300 maybe when they wouldn't have before. 637 00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:26,966 But otherwise it doesn't really do much. 638 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:30,666 I mean, it's just an expectation of the job, 639 00:23:30,666 --> 00:23:35,200 because the way The Times wants reporters to be credible 640 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,700 and to have their stories front and center. 641 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:38,466 - You know, I have this theory, 642 00:23:38,466 --> 00:23:41,100 and it's, what's the point of it, it's just a theory? 643 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:43,833 But that it benefits the big media organizations 644 00:23:43,833 --> 00:23:45,300 to have their reporters on, 645 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,300 not so much because they're seen in DC and New York and LA, 646 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:50,400 but because they're seen in Des Moines. 647 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,266 And they're seen in Birmingham. 648 00:23:52,266 --> 00:23:54,600 And they're seen in Columbus, Ohio. 649 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,833 And now suddenly the people in the middle of the country 650 00:23:56,833 --> 00:23:58,100 are having the same conversation 651 00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:59,466 or are listening to the same conversation 652 00:23:59,466 --> 00:24:00,966 that the rest of us are 653 00:24:00,966 --> 00:24:03,000 because cable television, for all of its ills, 654 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,966 has sort of brought us together. 655 00:24:04,966 --> 00:24:07,166 And now they're aware of the reporting that you did 656 00:24:07,166 --> 00:24:08,566 where they may not have been once upon a time. 657 00:24:08,566 --> 00:24:10,033 And from The New York Times' perspective, 658 00:24:10,033 --> 00:24:11,700 more readers in the middle of the country, 659 00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,033 however you define that, it's probably not a bad thing. 660 00:24:14,033 --> 00:24:15,300 - Yeah. Not a bad thing. 661 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,133 And not a bad thing for people to see reporters 662 00:24:17,133 --> 00:24:19,366 talk about how they got stories. 663 00:24:19,366 --> 00:24:21,600 Why they thought a story was important 664 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,100 or what they think a story means. 665 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:24,933 - Well, that's the best part of those cable shows 666 00:24:24,933 --> 00:24:26,866 is you talking about the process. 667 00:24:26,866 --> 00:24:28,333 Like a fourth grader in math class, 668 00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,866 showing us your work, right? Which I think is kind of great. 669 00:24:30,866 --> 00:24:32,100 We have two minutes left. 670 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:33,600 You grew up in Vermont, 671 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,233 you went to a small college in Maine, Bowdoin College. 672 00:24:35,233 --> 00:24:36,466 - Yeah. 673 00:24:36,466 --> 00:24:37,133 - And then you went overseas to teach. 674 00:24:37,133 --> 00:24:37,733 - [Katie] Yeah. 675 00:24:37,733 --> 00:24:38,666 - Yeah. 676 00:24:38,666 --> 00:24:41,266 You did not think that your life 677 00:24:41,266 --> 00:24:42,500 was gonna be about journalism 678 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:44,100 at the time that you left Bowdoin College, 679 00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:45,233 or certainly at the time 680 00:24:45,233 --> 00:24:46,333 that you were growing up in Vermont 681 00:24:46,333 --> 00:24:47,566 and before you went to college. 682 00:24:47,566 --> 00:24:49,466 - No, I didn't know any reporters in Vermont. 683 00:24:49,466 --> 00:24:51,566 And I didn't read The New York Times growing up. 684 00:24:51,566 --> 00:24:54,166 Like most people, I read my local news. 685 00:24:54,166 --> 00:24:58,433 I read the Rutland Herald in Vermont, so no. 686 00:25:00,133 --> 00:25:01,566 But I was in Beijing 687 00:25:01,566 --> 00:25:04,866 and I knew a lot of expats who were reporters. 688 00:25:04,866 --> 00:25:06,966 My boyfriend at the time worked at The China Daily. 689 00:25:06,966 --> 00:25:09,733 It was, you know, it seemed like an interesting job. 690 00:25:09,733 --> 00:25:11,433 But then after 9/11, 691 00:25:11,433 --> 00:25:13,200 when we were all trying to get information 692 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,966 about what had happened, 693 00:25:14,966 --> 00:25:18,333 and I was just calling people and gathering info, 694 00:25:18,333 --> 00:25:21,566 I, you know, I figured out I could make that into a story. 695 00:25:21,566 --> 00:25:23,433 And after that experience, 696 00:25:23,433 --> 00:25:27,033 I was like, this is a kind of extraordinary job. 697 00:25:27,033 --> 00:25:29,900 I sit around all day on the phone calling people 698 00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:31,800 and I can ask them kind of anything I want. 699 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,000 They don't have to answer, but I get to ask. 700 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,766 And then if the information's compelling, 701 00:25:36,766 --> 00:25:38,566 I can put it together in a story. 702 00:25:38,566 --> 00:25:40,800 And it can help people understand what's going on. 703 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,000 It's great. 704 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000 - I love that you came to it organically. 705 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,866 I think that's great. 706 00:25:43,866 --> 00:25:45,133 We're out of time. 707 00:25:45,133 --> 00:25:46,400 Katie Benner, thank you so much for being here. 708 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,666 - Thank you for having me. 709 00:25:47,666 --> 00:25:48,866 - I really enjoyed talking about it. 710 00:25:48,866 --> 00:25:49,666 Katie Benner, everybody. Give her a big hand. 711 00:25:49,666 --> 00:25:51,733 (audience applauds) 712 00:25:51,733 --> 00:25:54,000 - We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 713 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 714 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,133 to find invitations to interviews, 715 00:26:00,133 --> 00:26:02,033 Q&As with our audience and guests, 716 00:26:02,033 --> 00:26:04,800 and an archive of past episodes. 717 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,333 - I grew up in a very blue collar family. 718 00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:08,733 My dad worked in a factory 719 00:26:08,733 --> 00:26:11,966 and my mom worked in a daycare center, 720 00:26:11,966 --> 00:26:14,933 which I think are very honorable and good jobs. 721 00:26:14,933 --> 00:26:16,666 However, I understand that I'm privileged 722 00:26:16,666 --> 00:26:19,800 to sit in an air conditioned office, seated, 723 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,800 and that my job is to think and to type. 724 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,700 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 725 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:30,033 is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 726 00:26:30,033 --> 00:26:32,600 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 727 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,100 Claire and Carl Stuart, 728 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:37,333 and by Christine and Philip Dial.