1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,100 (no audio) 2 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:03,366 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 3 00:00:03,366 --> 00:00:06,300 is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 4 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,300 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 5 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:11,333 Claire and Carl Stuart, 6 00:00:11,333 --> 00:00:13,500 and by Christine and Philip Dial. 7 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,400 (no audio) 8 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:16,633 - I'm Evan Smith. 9 00:00:16,633 --> 00:00:18,333 He's one of the most recognizable, 10 00:00:18,333 --> 00:00:21,500 likable, and trusted journalists working today. 11 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,300 A longtime CNN anchor, who's also a bestselling author. 12 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:28,100 His third novel, "All the Demons are Here," 13 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:29,500 has just been published. 14 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:31,200 He's Jake Tapper. 15 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:32,333 This is "Overheard." 16 00:00:32,333 --> 00:00:33,600 (gentle music) 17 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,700 "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing." 18 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:38,633 You really turned the conversation around 19 00:00:38,633 --> 00:00:40,833 about what leadership should be about. 20 00:00:40,833 --> 00:00:42,133 Are we blowing this? 21 00:00:42,133 --> 00:00:43,900 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 22 00:00:43,900 --> 00:00:45,933 by giving in to the attention junkie? 23 00:00:45,933 --> 00:00:48,333 As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 24 00:00:48,333 --> 00:00:50,366 to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 25 00:00:50,366 --> 00:00:52,066 - Two. - This is "Overheard." 26 00:00:52,066 --> 00:00:54,266 (gentle music) 27 00:00:54,266 --> 00:00:56,933 (audience clapping) 28 00:00:56,933 --> 00:00:59,000 Jake, it's so good to have you back in Austin. 29 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,333 - Always great to be here, thanks so much, Evan. 30 00:01:00,333 --> 00:01:01,600 - [Evan] Thanks so much for being on the show. 31 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,066 - Of course. - So you used to be a TV guy 32 00:01:03,066 --> 00:01:05,333 who wrote novels as a sideline, 33 00:01:05,333 --> 00:01:08,866 and you're becoming a novelist who does a little TV. 34 00:01:08,866 --> 00:01:10,533 - No, no, no, no. 35 00:01:10,533 --> 00:01:12,966 The TV journalism is still my main passion. 36 00:01:12,966 --> 00:01:15,200 I still love going into work every day. 37 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:16,700 The novels are fun. 38 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,766 I might go back to nonfiction when it comes to books. 39 00:01:19,766 --> 00:01:21,700 I do miss that. 40 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:24,800 But, no, the broadcast journalism is still- 41 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,200 - This is not a sign, you're crying for help or something? 42 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:28,233 - No, no, no. - This is actually, 43 00:01:28,233 --> 00:01:29,966 "Get me off of television." 44 00:01:29,966 --> 00:01:32,633 - It's a nice escape from my day-to-day job, 45 00:01:32,633 --> 00:01:34,600 which is, I don't know if you've noticed, 46 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,266 but the news is not all good. 47 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,366 - Tough times, I agree. - It's a lot of bad news. 48 00:01:39,366 --> 00:01:41,066 - Well, we're gonna come back and talk about that. 49 00:01:41,066 --> 00:01:43,333 Look, I would say it's escapism for us also. 50 00:01:43,333 --> 00:01:44,633 I've now read all three of these books. 51 00:01:44,633 --> 00:01:46,166 - Yeah, you have. - And I will tell you 52 00:01:46,166 --> 00:01:48,766 that I found myself lost in the middle of a difficult day, 53 00:01:48,766 --> 00:01:51,500 or at a tough moment at work, you turn to this book. 54 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:53,133 It's really great. - Thank you. 55 00:01:53,133 --> 00:01:54,700 - You have a natural flare for this. 56 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:58,166 It's three books, but the reality is it's a series. 57 00:01:58,166 --> 00:02:00,433 - Yeah, well, it's about one family 58 00:02:00,433 --> 00:02:03,433 and their trip through the '50s, the '60s, and the '70s. 59 00:02:03,433 --> 00:02:04,966 - And that's the conceit. 60 00:02:04,966 --> 00:02:07,700 So the first book, "Hellfire Club," was set in the '50s. 61 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:10,166 - During the Joe McCarthy era, the Eisenhower years. 62 00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:11,766 - Second book is set in the '60s. 63 00:02:11,766 --> 00:02:14,800 - Yeah, the Rat Pack. - Rat Pack, you guys... 64 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:15,733 You guys, by which I mean the Marders, your characters. 65 00:02:15,733 --> 00:02:17,733 - The Marder family, yeah. 66 00:02:17,733 --> 00:02:19,000 - They're out on the West Coast 67 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,700 at the direction of Robert Kennedy. 68 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:23,200 It's a great book, people should read it, 69 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,533 and have adventures out in California. 70 00:02:25,533 --> 00:02:27,766 And then, this third book is set in the '70s. 71 00:02:27,766 --> 00:02:31,800 - It's their two kids who are in the second book, 72 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,766 they're now in their twenties and it's 1977, 73 00:02:34,766 --> 00:02:38,300 and it's the whole weird era of the '70s. 74 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:40,400 You know, I initially was gonna pass the '70s 75 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,600 'cause this is the first one that I was alive for, 76 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,100 I was eight in the '70s. 77 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:46,766 - Right, you were born in 1969, I was born in '66. 78 00:02:46,766 --> 00:02:51,000 Just judging by myself, I don't remember a ton of the '70s. 79 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,466 - Of what goes on in this book, 80 00:02:52,466 --> 00:02:56,133 I remember gas lines and Elvis dying, that's about it. 81 00:02:56,133 --> 00:02:57,966 - But you also had Jimmy Carter elected. 82 00:02:57,966 --> 00:02:59,466 You had a blackout in New York City. 83 00:02:59,466 --> 00:03:00,800 - I don't remember that though. 84 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,900 - Studio 54 opening, a lot of stuff happened. 85 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:04,333 - Yeah, you might not be surprised 86 00:03:04,333 --> 00:03:06,466 that I was not hip to the Studio 54 opening. 87 00:03:06,466 --> 00:03:08,166 - At that time, at age seven, or whatever, yeah. 88 00:03:08,166 --> 00:03:09,700 - And my parents were pretty good 89 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:13,433 at keeping the entire Son of Sam serial killer thing 90 00:03:13,433 --> 00:03:15,233 away from me when they were making me 91 00:03:15,233 --> 00:03:17,533 watch "Sesame Street" and "Mister Roger's." 92 00:03:17,533 --> 00:03:20,366 But I will say I was gonna skip the era 93 00:03:20,366 --> 00:03:23,100 because I thought it was just kind of lame, 94 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:24,733 'cause that's how it's portrayed. 95 00:03:24,733 --> 00:03:27,066 But it actually was a wild era. 96 00:03:27,066 --> 00:03:30,900 First of all, you have a nation, an entire country 97 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:34,466 that is tremendously disillusioned with the government. 98 00:03:34,466 --> 00:03:35,766 - Post-Watergate. - Post-Watergate. 99 00:03:35,766 --> 00:03:37,000 - Another thing that happened in the '70s, 100 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,666 that's right, yes. - And post-Vietnam. 101 00:03:39,666 --> 00:03:44,100 The country is not trusting its leaders in a major way. 102 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:47,566 I mean, that's how Jimmy Carter got elected, barely. 103 00:03:47,566 --> 00:03:49,900 Because he said, "I will not lie to you." 104 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:51,366 - Right. 105 00:03:51,366 --> 00:03:53,800 - And then, there was just the rampant mistrust, 106 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,633 and just a whole bunch of weird things happening. 107 00:03:56,633 --> 00:03:58,700 It was the rise of tabloid journalism 108 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:00,466 because of the Summer of Sam, 109 00:04:00,466 --> 00:04:02,700 the "New York Post," the "New York Daily News." 110 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:04,366 Anyway, one of the main characters in the book, 111 00:04:04,366 --> 00:04:05,866 there are two main characters, Ike and Lucy, 112 00:04:05,866 --> 00:04:08,233 the kids of the Marders, Charlie and Margaret, 113 00:04:08,233 --> 00:04:10,066 who are the main characters in the first two books. 114 00:04:10,066 --> 00:04:13,333 Ike is an AWOL marine, disillusioned with the government. 115 00:04:13,333 --> 00:04:14,866 - 20 years old. - 20 years old. 116 00:04:14,866 --> 00:04:16,400 - We first meet him in Montana. 117 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,766 - He has gone AWOL, 118 00:04:17,766 --> 00:04:19,600 he is working on Evel Knievel's pit crew. 119 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,966 - Pit crew, that's the thing. 120 00:04:20,966 --> 00:04:23,233 Evel Knievel is a character in this book. 121 00:04:23,233 --> 00:04:24,666 - A pretty big one. - Significant. 122 00:04:24,666 --> 00:04:26,166 - I started getting comfortable with the idea 123 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:30,466 of having real characters be major characters in the book. 124 00:04:30,466 --> 00:04:32,300 I did it a little bit in the first book. 125 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:34,600 I had Joe McCarthy, and Roy Cohn, 126 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,633 and Estes Kefauver as characters. 127 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,766 At first, I was uncomfortable with it. 128 00:04:40,766 --> 00:04:41,966 In the second draft, 129 00:04:41,966 --> 00:04:43,566 I got a little bit more comfortable with it. 130 00:04:43,566 --> 00:04:45,600 In the second book, I just went all in, 131 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:46,833 and I had Sinatra be a big character in it. 132 00:04:46,833 --> 00:04:49,000 - Sinatra was a part of it at one point, yeah. 133 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,200 - And because if you're gonna do it, 134 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,400 just have fun with it, right? 135 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,800 I mean, you can't have them doing things 136 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:53,800 they would never do. 137 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,700 It has to be believable. - Right. 138 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:58,900 - And then, this one, I'm a friend of mine pushed me 139 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:00,500 to look more into Evel Knievel. 140 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:04,433 'Cause his charm completely escaped me when I was a kid. 141 00:05:04,433 --> 00:05:05,966 - Yeah. - He wasn't really an athlete, 142 00:05:05,966 --> 00:05:07,600 but he was on the cover of "Sports Illustrated." 143 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,833 He's on the cover of "Rolling Stone." 144 00:05:08,833 --> 00:05:10,300 - He's a phenomenon. - He was a phenomenon. 145 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:12,200 And there is something interesting 146 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,300 and archetypal American about him, 147 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:19,266 a salesman, a showman, he's not a great motorcyclist, 148 00:05:19,266 --> 00:05:21,600 but he's willing to do things that others aren't. 149 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:22,833 He's willing to jump over 150 00:05:22,833 --> 00:05:24,000 and do these stunts at others don't match. 151 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,533 - But as you portray him, 152 00:05:25,533 --> 00:05:27,433 and, you know, we can come back to this if you want, 153 00:05:27,433 --> 00:05:31,633 in the book, formally, he's not a really good person. 154 00:05:31,633 --> 00:05:32,833 - No, he's a bad person. - Right? 155 00:05:32,833 --> 00:05:34,466 He has terrible personal attributes 156 00:05:34,466 --> 00:05:36,500 that are on display all through the book. 157 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:37,966 Let me go back to the Marders. 158 00:05:37,966 --> 00:05:39,766 So the Marders are the through line, as you say. 159 00:05:39,766 --> 00:05:42,566 In the first book, Charlie Marder becomes a congressman 160 00:05:42,566 --> 00:05:45,866 because his predecessor, I believe, commits... 161 00:05:45,866 --> 00:05:48,500 - Well, I don't wanna get into it, but yeah, he dies. 162 00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:49,966 - He dies let's just say. 163 00:05:49,966 --> 00:05:52,300 But, initially, what we're told, or we think is- 164 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:53,766 - [Jake] Is that he committed suicide. 165 00:05:53,766 --> 00:05:54,966 - He committed suicide. - Right. 166 00:05:54,966 --> 00:05:56,633 - And he had bee a professor at Columbia? 167 00:05:56,633 --> 00:05:58,166 - Charlie, he's a history professor. 168 00:05:58,166 --> 00:06:00,766 - And so he's a Republican, but he's a New York Republican. 169 00:06:00,766 --> 00:06:02,333 - Yeah, he's a Dewey, Rockefeller Republican. 170 00:06:02,333 --> 00:06:05,733 - You know what we call that person in Texas? 171 00:06:05,733 --> 00:06:06,900 A Democrat. 172 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:07,766 (Jake laughing) That's exactly right. 173 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,400 So Charlie Marder starts out in the first book 174 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,333 as a member of Congress. 175 00:06:14,333 --> 00:06:15,566 By the time we get to this book, 176 00:06:15,566 --> 00:06:16,833 Charlie Marder is now a United States Senator. 177 00:06:16,833 --> 00:06:18,766 - He's a senator, yeah. - United States Senator. 178 00:06:18,766 --> 00:06:20,366 His wife Margaret is a zoologist. 179 00:06:20,366 --> 00:06:23,366 And as you say, Ike and Lucy are in the second book. 180 00:06:23,366 --> 00:06:26,666 - Yeah, Lucy is in Margaret's, 181 00:06:26,666 --> 00:06:27,833 is in utero in the first book. 182 00:06:27,833 --> 00:06:29,100 - In the first book? - Yeah. 183 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:30,766 - But by the time we encounter them here, 184 00:06:30,766 --> 00:06:32,900 Ike, I think is 20, Lucy is 22. 185 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:34,400 Ike, as you say, is an AWOL marine 186 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,866 working on the pit crew of Evel Knievel. 187 00:06:35,866 --> 00:06:38,866 Lucy is a journalist for a respectable newspaper in D.C. 188 00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:41,200 - "The Washington Star." - But then becomes 189 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,500 a journalist for one of these new... 190 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:44,733 - Tabloids. - Tabloids. 191 00:06:44,733 --> 00:06:48,300 - So she gets wooed by a fictitious family, 192 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,133 the Lyon family. 193 00:06:50,133 --> 00:06:53,400 And Maxwell Lyon is very directly, 194 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:54,333 I'm not hiding this at all- 195 00:06:54,333 --> 00:06:55,433 - Well, you've acknowledged it. 196 00:06:55,433 --> 00:06:57,000 - Yeah, based on Rupert Murdoch. 197 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,533 I mean, he's British, not Australian, 198 00:07:00,533 --> 00:07:02,533 but he is very directly based on Rupert Murdoch. 199 00:07:02,533 --> 00:07:04,833 And that's because in this era, 200 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,066 Robert Maxwell and Rupert Murdoch 201 00:07:10,066 --> 00:07:11,766 are coming into the United States 202 00:07:11,766 --> 00:07:14,100 and expanding their media empires. 203 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,233 And actually it was in San Antonio 204 00:07:17,233 --> 00:07:21,833 that Murdoch first bought newspapers. 205 00:07:21,833 --> 00:07:23,866 - Indeed. - And first, 206 00:07:23,866 --> 00:07:26,133 actually successfully, like had a, 207 00:07:26,133 --> 00:07:31,133 I think he bucked trends by having an afternoon newspaper. 208 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,433 This is when afternoon newspapers 209 00:07:33,433 --> 00:07:34,900 were closing all over the country. 210 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,200 But by having a sensationalist newspaper in San Antonio, 211 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,733 he kept it alive. 212 00:07:39,733 --> 00:07:42,166 And he is the one, I found out by doing the research 213 00:07:42,166 --> 00:07:44,400 for this book on Rupert Murdoch, 214 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,333 the reason I was terrified of killer bees as a kid 215 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:49,833 is because of Rupert Murdoch. 216 00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:51,366 - Because of something that ran on- 217 00:07:51,366 --> 00:07:55,433 - Because the "San Antonio News" and "Express," 218 00:07:55,433 --> 00:07:58,166 when at the time they were two different newspapers, 219 00:07:58,166 --> 00:08:02,300 were scaring the holy, whatever I can say on PBS, 220 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:05,266 they were scaring everybody about these killer bees 221 00:08:05,266 --> 00:08:06,766 that were gonna come and kill everybody. 222 00:08:06,766 --> 00:08:09,966 - Right, well, the concept of the front page, 223 00:08:09,966 --> 00:08:11,466 which, you know, you refer to the headline on the front page 224 00:08:11,466 --> 00:08:13,033 as the Wood. - The Wood. 225 00:08:13,033 --> 00:08:14,700 - Like, we still talk about the "New York Post" 226 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:15,633 and "The Daily News" in New York. 227 00:08:15,633 --> 00:08:17,200 - Yeah, what's on the Wood? 228 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,000 - Something happens, what's the Wood tomorrow 229 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000 gonna be for this? 230 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,533 - "Headless body in topless bar." 231 00:08:21,533 --> 00:08:23,100 - "Topless bar," would be an example of that, right. 232 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:24,433 - That's a famous "New York Post," perhaps- 233 00:08:24,433 --> 00:08:27,733 - [Evan] That is totally true, totally true. 234 00:08:27,733 --> 00:08:29,200 - Perhaps their best one. 235 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,800 - Well, but also, was there not during the '70s, 236 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,433 "Ford to New York: Drop Dead"? 237 00:08:34,433 --> 00:08:35,700 - Yeah, "Ford to New York: Drop Dead," 238 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:36,500 when he refused, yeah, to bail out the city. 239 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:37,733 - To bail out the city, 240 00:08:37,733 --> 00:08:39,166 "Ford to New York: Drop Dead," was also Wood. 241 00:08:39,166 --> 00:08:41,400 So the tabloid culture, 242 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,433 the concept of the front page of stories 243 00:08:44,433 --> 00:08:47,000 that honestly have some facts but are juiced- 244 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,500 - Juiced to make the Wood. 245 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:50,533 - To make the Wood, that is a huge piece of this book. 246 00:08:50,533 --> 00:08:52,266 - So this book gets into journalism, 247 00:08:52,266 --> 00:08:55,033 not in a journalism school, lecturey way. 248 00:08:55,033 --> 00:08:59,900 But Lucy is given a story that is, 249 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:01,866 she comes to this newspaper 250 00:09:01,866 --> 00:09:04,233 and immediately she's covering a serial killer. 251 00:09:05,700 --> 00:09:10,100 And her stories are goosed to get on the front page, 252 00:09:11,066 --> 00:09:12,500 to get on the Wood. - Yep. 253 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:15,600 - And she loves the attention and she loves the fame, 254 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,100 but she also has, you know- 255 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:18,833 - Misgivings. - Misgivings about the fact 256 00:09:18,833 --> 00:09:22,266 that some of her facts are being tweaked 257 00:09:22,266 --> 00:09:24,066 to give more attention. 258 00:09:25,766 --> 00:09:27,100 Because she is getting scoops 259 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:30,166 that no other journalist in town gets, 260 00:09:30,166 --> 00:09:33,600 she's being invited to come on local TV. 261 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,066 She has a showdown with two actual legendary, 262 00:09:37,066 --> 00:09:42,066 the first two Black co-anchors in, I think, 263 00:09:43,233 --> 00:09:45,633 any major metropolitan market in D.C. history. 264 00:09:45,633 --> 00:09:47,633 She has a showdown with them, they were real people. 265 00:09:47,633 --> 00:09:49,500 That showdown did not actually happen, of course, 266 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:51,900 'cause Lucy does not exist. 267 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:54,000 - This is fiction. - This is fiction. 268 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,533 But they were heroes in D.C. 269 00:09:55,533 --> 00:09:57,200 and so I wanted to have this showdown. 270 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,533 But it gets into a lot of what we are dealing with today, 271 00:10:01,533 --> 00:10:05,533 because, obviously, Murdoch and the tabloidization of news, 272 00:10:05,533 --> 00:10:08,333 and not just Fox, although, obviously, 273 00:10:08,333 --> 00:10:13,233 that is the most consequential example 274 00:10:13,233 --> 00:10:16,100 that we're dealing with when you think of January 6th 275 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:18,766 and all the lies that were told on that channel then, 276 00:10:18,766 --> 00:10:22,100 but the tabloidization of media that exists 277 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:25,566 almost everywhere, perhaps with the one exception of PBS, 278 00:10:26,766 --> 00:10:28,066 is something that we all deal with. 279 00:10:28,066 --> 00:10:29,666 - Right, it feels very familiar, 280 00:10:29,666 --> 00:10:30,800 if you're reading the book today, 281 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,266 to go back and to look at that. 282 00:10:32,266 --> 00:10:33,700 Talk about the process. 283 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:36,033 You alluded to doing research, again, kid of the '70s 284 00:10:36,033 --> 00:10:37,833 who doesn't necessarily remember much from the '70s. 285 00:10:37,833 --> 00:10:39,333 You've gotta do research to augment this. 286 00:10:39,333 --> 00:10:41,000 You're a busy guy. - Yeah. 287 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,200 - You host a couple shows on CNN. 288 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,133 You're at the center of so much activity 289 00:10:45,133 --> 00:10:47,733 kind of in and around politics and current events, 290 00:10:47,733 --> 00:10:48,966 news, these days. 291 00:10:48,966 --> 00:10:50,300 You've got a family. 292 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,500 When are you writing this book? 293 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:54,166 - Well, first of all, you need to understand 294 00:10:54,166 --> 00:10:57,733 that I love the research. 295 00:10:57,733 --> 00:11:00,833 I love the history, it's enjoyable for me. 296 00:11:00,833 --> 00:11:03,633 Like, right now, I am reading a book called "Scoundrel," 297 00:11:03,633 --> 00:11:08,500 that is about this murderer that William F. Buckley 298 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,800 took up his cause and got him out of prison. 299 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,800 Edgar Smith, I don't know if you know the story. 300 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,000 - This is a nonfiction book? 301 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,100 - This is a nonfiction book, Edgar Smith. 302 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:19,966 I don't wanna ruin it for you, but it's just really... 303 00:11:19,966 --> 00:11:22,633 A true story about a PBS alum, 304 00:11:22,633 --> 00:11:24,600 who got this guy out of prison. 305 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,466 Long story short, doesn't end so well. 306 00:11:27,466 --> 00:11:29,366 But it's a great story. 307 00:11:30,833 --> 00:11:34,166 And I just love it, I mean, I love history, so it's fun. 308 00:11:34,166 --> 00:11:35,700 That's enjoyable for me. 309 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:36,933 I'm the guy that, you know, 310 00:11:36,933 --> 00:11:39,200 when Kevin McCarthy's going through 15 votes, 311 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,433 I'm the guy on our stage in our studio 312 00:11:43,433 --> 00:11:45,466 on newspapers.com looking at, like, 313 00:11:45,466 --> 00:11:47,400 newspapers from like 1820 to find out, 314 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,866 you know, what the vote count was, 315 00:11:49,866 --> 00:11:52,533 like, you know, when they went through like multiple ballots 316 00:11:52,533 --> 00:11:54,066 in previous times, it's fun for me. 317 00:11:54,066 --> 00:11:57,166 - So this is not work for you, although it does take time. 318 00:11:57,166 --> 00:12:00,600 - It takes time, but I love it, I do like it, it's fun. 319 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,000 - How long does it take you to write a book like this? 320 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,500 - A couple years, a couple years. 321 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:07,066 - Well, and in fact, you're already at work on a book. 322 00:12:07,066 --> 00:12:09,000 - Well, right now I'm taking a little bit of a pause 323 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,266 'cause I have a few ideas 324 00:12:10,266 --> 00:12:11,533 and I need to figure out what I wanna- 325 00:12:11,533 --> 00:12:12,700 - Well, I thought you were working on a book 326 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:13,800 about the '80s that was set 327 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,033 on the 40th anniversary of D-Day. 328 00:12:15,033 --> 00:12:17,200 - Didn't you say that? - I was, I was, but- 329 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,500 - That might've, in fact, had the Marders. 330 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:19,700 It was the fourth, eventually, yeah? 331 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,600 - Yeah, yeah, that will be the next book. 332 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,466 But I have a couple nonfiction ideas and I have to figure- 333 00:12:25,466 --> 00:12:26,933 - So we may have to wait for that one? 334 00:12:26,933 --> 00:12:29,666 - Yeah, I wanna figure out what I wanna do next. 335 00:12:29,666 --> 00:12:31,300 And there were a couple nonfiction ideas, 336 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:34,000 and I haven't written a nonfiction book since "The Outpost," 337 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,133 about Afghanistan that came out in 2012, 338 00:12:37,133 --> 00:12:38,300 and I kind of missed that. 339 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:39,500 And there are a couple, 340 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:42,100 and I really do love nonfiction too, 341 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:43,266 so I just have to figure it out. 342 00:12:43,266 --> 00:12:44,733 - So you'll be continuing to write, 343 00:12:44,733 --> 00:12:45,733 but we'll just sort of see what the sequence is? 344 00:12:45,733 --> 00:12:50,200 - Yeah, the one about the world, 345 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,633 the next book in the series 346 00:12:51,633 --> 00:12:55,300 would be on a ship that takes place 347 00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:57,500 on the anniversary of D-Day. 348 00:12:57,500 --> 00:12:59,033 - It's 1984. - In 1984, 349 00:12:59,033 --> 00:13:00,366 the 40th anniversary of D-Day. 350 00:13:00,366 --> 00:13:01,833 We're about next year we're gonna celebrate 351 00:13:01,833 --> 00:13:03,500 the 80th anniversary. 352 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,300 This would be like, kind of like a "Death on the Nile," 353 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:08,333 except on the 40th anniversary of D-Day, 354 00:13:08,333 --> 00:13:12,000 a ship that is sailing to Normandy Beach. 355 00:13:13,733 --> 00:13:16,266 And it's filled with all these World War II 356 00:13:16,266 --> 00:13:17,533 heroes and celebrities, 357 00:13:17,533 --> 00:13:20,700 on the first day, one of the generals disappears. 358 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:22,266 - Yeah, well, I have to say, 359 00:13:22,266 --> 00:13:23,766 when I read that description of the book, I thought, 360 00:13:23,766 --> 00:13:25,000 "Well, okay, bring it." 361 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,800 I'm looking forward to actually see this book. 362 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,333 So we talked about Fox a little bit 363 00:13:28,333 --> 00:13:29,800 in and around and Murdoch. 364 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,533 You gave an interview to Scott Simon of NPR recently, 365 00:13:33,533 --> 00:13:36,333 in which you said something to the effect of, 366 00:13:36,333 --> 00:13:40,200 "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing, 367 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,366 and it can do damage." 368 00:13:41,366 --> 00:13:42,866 - Well, it's a responsibility. 369 00:13:42,866 --> 00:13:44,700 - It absolutely is, and you were talking specifically 370 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,133 about the Boston Marathon bombing. 371 00:13:47,133 --> 00:13:48,933 And the, so-called, "Bag Men" picture 372 00:13:48,933 --> 00:13:50,866 that appeared on the front page of the "New York Post," 373 00:13:50,866 --> 00:13:52,266 or in the "New York Post," I guess. 374 00:13:52,266 --> 00:13:53,266 - It was on the front page. - Front page, right. 375 00:13:53,266 --> 00:13:54,700 - Yeah. - Where they identified 376 00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,666 two people and they sort of made it look like 377 00:13:56,666 --> 00:13:59,066 these were people involved with the bombing, 378 00:13:59,066 --> 00:14:00,700 turned out not to be and they sued. 379 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:01,766 - They sued, they got money. 380 00:14:01,766 --> 00:14:03,166 - They sued successfully the "Post." 381 00:14:03,166 --> 00:14:05,833 You were referring to that with that quote. 382 00:14:05,833 --> 00:14:08,200 But, of course, I heard you say that, and I thought, 383 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,433 "He's talking about Fox News." 384 00:14:10,433 --> 00:14:12,933 "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing 385 00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:13,933 and it can do damage." 386 00:14:13,933 --> 00:14:15,600 - Well, they're both News Corp. 387 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,866 - Right, but I was thinking, 388 00:14:16,866 --> 00:14:20,100 but I took the quote to another extreme. 389 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:21,366 - They're both Murdoch. - Yeah. 390 00:14:21,366 --> 00:14:23,466 So same-same, as far as you're concerned? 391 00:14:23,466 --> 00:14:25,933 - Yeah, I mean, it's the same ethos. 392 00:14:25,933 --> 00:14:27,633 It's the same, it doesn't matter. 393 00:14:27,633 --> 00:14:29,366 - But, of course, Fox News has so much more, 394 00:14:29,366 --> 00:14:30,866 I'll push a little bit on this, 395 00:14:30,866 --> 00:14:35,200 in that Fox News has so much more of a pervasive reach 396 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,833 than the "New York Post" does. - Yes, sure. 397 00:14:36,833 --> 00:14:38,700 - Even the iconic "New York Post." 398 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:40,833 What we've witnessed for the last several years, since- 399 00:14:40,833 --> 00:14:42,266 - But when you said the iconic "New York Post," 400 00:14:42,266 --> 00:14:45,433 I mean, I think if Alexander Hamilton woke up 401 00:14:45,433 --> 00:14:46,633 and saw what was being done 402 00:14:46,633 --> 00:14:47,733 to the iconic "New York Post-" 403 00:14:47,733 --> 00:14:48,666 - He might vomit. 404 00:14:48,666 --> 00:14:50,066 - I mean, I think he would say, 405 00:14:50,066 --> 00:14:53,233 "Oh my god, kill me again." (audience laughing) 406 00:14:53,233 --> 00:14:55,366 - After vomiting, right, yeah. 407 00:14:55,366 --> 00:14:58,133 But I'm thinking about just the last two years. 408 00:14:58,133 --> 00:15:01,933 And what we have seen come out through court action, 409 00:15:01,933 --> 00:15:06,000 you know, and leaks about texts and everything else, 410 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,566 what's happened at Fox has indeed done damage, has it not? 411 00:15:10,566 --> 00:15:13,666 - To the Murdoch brand? - To all of us. 412 00:15:13,666 --> 00:15:15,066 - Yes. - Yes? 413 00:15:15,066 --> 00:15:17,000 - Yes, it hurts all of journalism. 414 00:15:18,333 --> 00:15:21,933 I mean, all of it does damage, all of it does damage. 415 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:28,800 Anytime there is bad journalism, it hurts all of us. 416 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,033 - Right, I mean, the reality 417 00:15:30,033 --> 00:15:31,366 is we're all painted by the same brush. 418 00:15:31,366 --> 00:15:32,200 - Right, right. 419 00:15:33,666 --> 00:15:35,600 I mean, one of the things that's different about Fox 420 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,633 is Fox attacks everyone else. 421 00:15:39,633 --> 00:15:44,566 I mean, they're not just providing a center-right channel, 422 00:15:44,566 --> 00:15:46,966 which, you know, as far as I'm concerned, 423 00:15:46,966 --> 00:15:48,300 would be fine, who caress? 424 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:49,700 I mean, that's great. 425 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:51,500 There should be a center-right alternative. 426 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:53,133 - And, to be honest, for many years, 427 00:15:53,133 --> 00:15:54,866 until the last couple of years, 428 00:15:54,866 --> 00:15:57,166 it sort of kind of was just that, sort of. 429 00:15:57,166 --> 00:16:00,900 - I would say until the war in Iraq maybe. 430 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:02,366 - So you would go back even farther? 431 00:16:02,366 --> 00:16:05,266 - Yeah, because they really became a propaganda arm 432 00:16:06,333 --> 00:16:07,566 of the Bush White House. 433 00:16:07,566 --> 00:16:10,633 I think that's really when it started to, 434 00:16:10,633 --> 00:16:13,833 because yes, in the '90s, I think it was center-right. 435 00:16:13,833 --> 00:16:16,166 You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with, 436 00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:19,100 I remember Tucker Carlson, years ago, 437 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,166 giving a speech at maybe CPAC or something like that, 438 00:16:21,166 --> 00:16:24,300 talking about how instead of complaining about the media, 439 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,566 why don't conservatives do something 440 00:16:25,566 --> 00:16:27,166 like put out their own version 441 00:16:27,166 --> 00:16:29,000 of a center-right "New York Times"? 442 00:16:30,433 --> 00:16:31,433 - And that's a reasonable thing 443 00:16:31,433 --> 00:16:32,433 as far as you're concerned? 444 00:16:32,433 --> 00:16:33,900 - Why not? - Why not? 445 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:35,333 Right, I mean, Tucker Carlson used to be on CNN. 446 00:16:35,333 --> 00:16:36,666 We've come a long way. 447 00:16:36,666 --> 00:16:38,400 - Tucker Carlson used to be on MSNBC. 448 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,900 - Right, we have come a very long way, right. 449 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:45,366 - But I don't think, I mean, yeah, why not? 450 00:16:45,366 --> 00:16:48,500 I mean, like, I think that "The Weekly Standard," 451 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,766 may it rest in peace, was a magazine I read all the time. 452 00:16:50,766 --> 00:16:52,800 I read the "National Review." 453 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,833 - Right, there are many more options in that space 454 00:16:54,833 --> 00:16:56,300 than there used to be. - Yeah, there's nothing wrong 455 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:57,966 with alternative points of view. 456 00:16:57,966 --> 00:16:59,333 - Right. 457 00:16:59,333 --> 00:17:00,733 - I think that the challenge 458 00:17:00,733 --> 00:17:04,366 is when they subscribe to the Murdoch model, 459 00:17:04,366 --> 00:17:07,200 which is that news consumer behavior 460 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,833 is driven by fear or rage. 461 00:17:10,833 --> 00:17:11,666 - Yeah. 462 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,966 - And once you see that, you can't unsee it, 463 00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:17,233 that is what they are trying 464 00:17:17,233 --> 00:17:21,500 to get news consumers to react to, fear or rage. 465 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:23,000 "You should be mad at these people. 466 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,033 You should be scared about these people." 467 00:17:25,033 --> 00:17:27,333 - Right. - And that is what they do. 468 00:17:27,333 --> 00:17:32,333 And they're always telling their viewers or readers, 469 00:17:33,533 --> 00:17:35,233 "Don't trust Evan, don't trust Jake. 470 00:17:35,233 --> 00:17:39,033 Don't trust anyone else, you should only trust us." 471 00:17:39,033 --> 00:17:40,500 - "We're the only ones." 472 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,800 I mean, there's a line in the back of this book. 473 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,466 "No one is more opaque than wealthy media families 474 00:17:45,466 --> 00:17:48,266 who demand transparency from everyone else." 475 00:17:48,266 --> 00:17:49,866 That was a line that you wrote in this book. 476 00:17:49,866 --> 00:17:52,400 And I thought to myself, it's so interesting because- 477 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,200 - I was talking about the Lyon family. 478 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,866 - But, of course, I roll it forward and say, 479 00:17:56,866 --> 00:17:59,733 "How much don't we know about what Fox has done 480 00:17:59,733 --> 00:18:02,366 and not done over the last couple years behind the scenes?" 481 00:18:02,366 --> 00:18:03,866 - Sure, of course, well, yeah, 482 00:18:03,866 --> 00:18:05,233 of course, I'm talking about the Murdochs. 483 00:18:05,233 --> 00:18:07,200 - We don't hold ourselves, as an industry, 484 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,700 we have an obligation to hold ourselves 485 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,600 to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 486 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,300 We should be as transparent. 487 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,266 - Yeah, of course. 488 00:18:14,266 --> 00:18:17,333 And, I mean, when you look at the Dominion lawsuit, 489 00:18:17,333 --> 00:18:19,300 and you look at the texts that came out, 490 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:20,900 and the fact that they knew 491 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,266 that they were lying to their viewers. 492 00:18:23,266 --> 00:18:27,066 And the only reason they were lying to their viewers 493 00:18:27,066 --> 00:18:29,533 is because they were only concerned 494 00:18:29,533 --> 00:18:32,400 about losing them as viewers. 495 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,500 They were only concerned about money 496 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:38,066 and the business end of things. 497 00:18:38,066 --> 00:18:39,833 They had no concern about the truth. 498 00:18:39,833 --> 00:18:43,200 They had no concern about the journalism. 499 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,233 That shows you, ultimately, what they care about. 500 00:18:47,233 --> 00:18:50,300 And that shows me that they're not 501 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:51,966 in the same business that I'm in. 502 00:18:51,966 --> 00:18:53,366 - So let's talk about the business you're in, 503 00:18:53,366 --> 00:18:55,033 the inevitable CNN question. - Sure. 504 00:18:55,033 --> 00:18:57,266 - It's been a challenging year, or so, at CNN. 505 00:18:57,266 --> 00:18:58,800 It's been a challenging few years. 506 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,366 - Few years, but specifically, 507 00:19:00,366 --> 00:19:03,600 this year, there's been some churn in leadership, 508 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,000 the programming schedule hosts and so on have changed. 509 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,833 But, you know, as I turn on the television at night, 510 00:19:08,833 --> 00:19:10,300 I see Kaitlan Collins hosting, 511 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:11,700 then I see Abby Phillip hosting. 512 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:13,800 Of course, I watch your show. 513 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,900 Things seem to have reset, am I wrong about that? 514 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,300 - No, I think we're in a good place now. 515 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:22,100 We have a new leader, Sir Mark Thompson, who- 516 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:23,466 - Had run "The New York Times" 517 00:19:23,466 --> 00:19:26,266 and BBC before that. - Yeah, yeah, he seems great. 518 00:19:26,266 --> 00:19:28,800 - Yeah, serious guy. - Serious guy. 519 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,500 Serious news values. 520 00:19:31,866 --> 00:19:36,333 Look, it's not fun to be in a news organization 521 00:19:36,333 --> 00:19:39,400 that has a number of different leaders 522 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,200 in a number of different years. 523 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,500 That's not fun. 524 00:19:43,933 --> 00:19:47,900 But as a general note, you know, I've been on at four, 525 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:51,800 and except for like a few weeks right before the midterm 526 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,266 when the previous president, Chris Licht, 527 00:19:54,266 --> 00:19:56,900 asked me to do the nine o'clock just for a few weeks, 528 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,966 I've been on at four and we've just been doing the best show 529 00:19:59,966 --> 00:20:01,500 we can do from four to six, 530 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:06,500 or here in Texas from three to five every day, 531 00:20:07,366 --> 00:20:08,566 just doing the news as fairly 532 00:20:08,566 --> 00:20:11,066 and as substantively as we can do it. 533 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,100 And that's just the mission, 534 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:16,166 and we've been trying to do that day in, day out, 535 00:20:16,166 --> 00:20:18,700 no matter who the president of our network is. 536 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:20,100 And I feel like we're in a good place. 537 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,566 I look around at the anchors that we have at CNN, 538 00:20:22,566 --> 00:20:25,866 whether it's Abby Phillip, or Kasie Hunt, or Dana Bash, 539 00:20:25,866 --> 00:20:28,200 or, I mean, I'm not gonna name them all, 540 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,400 but they're all great. 541 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,866 I respect them all, I love them all, 542 00:20:30,866 --> 00:20:32,100 and it's a really good place. 543 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,500 And, yeah, I don't like all the stuff, 544 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,900 all the churn as you put it. 545 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,000 - But down here, at ground level, the work is being done? 546 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,200 The work continues? - I think so. 547 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,600 And there's no place I'd rather be, 548 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,100 like, you know, to be able to, 549 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:45,633 like, Clarissa Ward comes back 550 00:20:45,633 --> 00:20:47,033 from the Central African Republic 551 00:20:47,033 --> 00:20:49,100 doing a piece on the Wagner Group. 552 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:50,066 I mean, there's no other channel 553 00:20:50,066 --> 00:20:51,466 that's doing that, you know? 554 00:20:51,466 --> 00:20:53,166 - Right, so we have about five minutes left. 555 00:20:53,166 --> 00:20:54,966 I wanna ask you about the work, 556 00:20:54,966 --> 00:20:56,300 which really relates back to something 557 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:57,900 that we said earlier in this conversation, 558 00:20:57,900 --> 00:20:59,700 which is, "Oh my god, the news moment 559 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:01,000 and the news environment that we're in." 560 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,033 - Which we don't have to tell you, 561 00:21:02,033 --> 00:21:03,200 because you're all in Texas 562 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,900 and we just did a piece on our Sunday show 563 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:09,933 about your attorney general being acquitted, 564 00:21:09,933 --> 00:21:13,000 despite a vast array of evidence 565 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,466 that the Republicans in the House voted 126 to 23. 566 00:21:17,466 --> 00:21:19,966 - A super majority of Republicans in the Texas House, right. 567 00:21:19,966 --> 00:21:23,100 - After a serious investigation by House Republicans. 568 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,166 - It's a national story to be sure. 569 00:21:25,166 --> 00:21:27,800 And the reality is that all local is national these days, 570 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,066 and all national is local, right? 571 00:21:29,066 --> 00:21:30,300 We know that everything 572 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:32,933 has kind of become all in the same bucket. 573 00:21:32,933 --> 00:21:34,500 - When Republicans are even shocking 574 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,366 "The Wall Street Journal" editorial page. 575 00:21:36,366 --> 00:21:38,466 (audience laughing) - That's news. 576 00:21:38,466 --> 00:21:39,966 We're heading into another election, Jake, 577 00:21:39,966 --> 00:21:41,266 this is really where I wanna go 578 00:21:41,266 --> 00:21:42,700 with this part of the conversation is we're, 579 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:46,666 you know, about to have potentially a rematch from 2020. 580 00:21:46,666 --> 00:21:48,933 I wonder if you would reflect on what you see 581 00:21:48,933 --> 00:21:51,966 coming up the road as it relates to the '24 election, 582 00:21:51,966 --> 00:21:56,966 and where the media should do the same or do different 583 00:21:56,966 --> 00:21:59,100 as it covers this version. - I think it is very important 584 00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,366 that the news media not feel, 585 00:22:02,366 --> 00:22:05,233 "Okay, well, we're just gonna accept lies, 586 00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:09,500 because this percentage of the country, it's okay with them. 587 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:12,100 Therefore, we're just gonna accept lies 588 00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:13,400 because that's how it is." 589 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,600 That's not the business we're in. 590 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,800 We have to call balls and strikes. 591 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,800 - Yep. - At the same time, 592 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,133 we can't pick a side. 593 00:22:23,133 --> 00:22:25,366 We can't say, "Well, this is so horrible, 594 00:22:25,366 --> 00:22:28,833 we have to pretend that this is," 595 00:22:28,833 --> 00:22:30,433 I don't need to be opaque about it, 596 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:33,266 like, we can't say, "Well, because Donald Trump 597 00:22:33,266 --> 00:22:35,766 and what he did on January 6th is so awful, 598 00:22:35,766 --> 00:22:38,666 we have to pretend that like Hunter Biden 599 00:22:38,666 --> 00:22:42,333 and the millions he made off his dad's name 600 00:22:42,333 --> 00:22:43,833 that there's nothing here." 601 00:22:43,833 --> 00:22:46,466 I don't know what's here, I have no idea. 602 00:22:46,466 --> 00:22:48,700 There's a special counsel looking into it. 603 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:50,400 This is a legitimate news story. 604 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,533 Now, if they're lying about it in Congress, 605 00:22:53,533 --> 00:22:55,600 if they're saying things that there's no evidence for, 606 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,366 I don't have to pretend there's evidence for it, 607 00:22:57,366 --> 00:23:00,500 but all of it's legitimate for us to cover. 608 00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:01,933 I'm not saying they're equivalent, 609 00:23:01,933 --> 00:23:05,766 but I'm saying we can't be blinded to this because of this. 610 00:23:05,766 --> 00:23:07,266 - You've had a position for a long time 611 00:23:07,266 --> 00:23:08,533 that you were not going to allow people 612 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:10,033 to come on the air and lie. 613 00:23:10,033 --> 00:23:11,433 I remember you telling me last time you were in Austin 614 00:23:11,433 --> 00:23:15,766 that you would not book election deniers on your shows. 615 00:23:15,766 --> 00:23:19,200 - I said that we needed to have a conversation about it, 616 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:22,033 because if you're going to lie about that, 617 00:23:22,033 --> 00:23:23,700 what won't you lie about? 618 00:23:24,566 --> 00:23:26,433 I didn't have a ban in place. 619 00:23:26,433 --> 00:23:29,666 And I will tell you, I have had election deniers on. 620 00:23:29,666 --> 00:23:31,800 - So that's actually not, 621 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,566 my perception of it was that you were not willing 622 00:23:33,566 --> 00:23:36,166 to have people on who you knew would not acknowledge 623 00:23:36,166 --> 00:23:37,366 that the election was legitimate. 624 00:23:37,366 --> 00:23:40,166 - I have had them on not to talk about that, 625 00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:41,833 and I don't like to book them. 626 00:23:41,833 --> 00:23:43,733 I'm like always like, "Ugh." 627 00:23:43,733 --> 00:23:48,733 But, for instance, during Kevin McCarthy's 15 rounds, 628 00:23:49,933 --> 00:23:51,166 you know, you wanna talk about some of the people 629 00:23:51,166 --> 00:23:52,866 that were objecting to Kevin McCarthy, 630 00:23:52,866 --> 00:23:55,766 a bunch of them were election liars. 631 00:23:55,766 --> 00:23:57,900 - I think what I told you at the time is I work in Texas. 632 00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:01,033 If I didn't have election liars on... 633 00:24:01,033 --> 00:24:03,266 (audience laughing) 634 00:24:03,266 --> 00:24:05,400 - Right. - There wouldn't be anything. 635 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,733 - But, you know, there are a bunch of Texans 636 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,266 who did not vote that way, 637 00:24:10,266 --> 00:24:11,800 who are very conservative. - Correct. 638 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,733 - Crenshaw, McCaul. 639 00:24:13,733 --> 00:24:15,200 Chip Roy. - Chip Roy. 640 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,433 - Chip Roy is about as conservative as they get. 641 00:24:17,433 --> 00:24:19,566 And he actually did something very subversive. 642 00:24:19,566 --> 00:24:20,733 Do you know what he did? 643 00:24:20,733 --> 00:24:22,066 Congressman Chip Roy, 644 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,166 I don't think there's anyone to his right. 645 00:24:25,166 --> 00:24:29,266 But Congressman Chip Roy offered an amendment 646 00:24:29,266 --> 00:24:30,466 on the floor of the House saying, 647 00:24:30,466 --> 00:24:34,500 "If you vote against certifying the election 648 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:37,800 from Arizona or Pennsylvania," which is, 649 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,333 those were the two votes that people voted against, 650 00:24:40,333 --> 00:24:43,833 or voted, yeah, against certifying those states. 651 00:24:43,833 --> 00:24:46,200 "You also have to vote against counting 652 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,033 anyone elected on those ballots. 653 00:24:48,033 --> 00:24:51,400 So, Pennsylvania Congressmen, Arizona Congressmen, 654 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,600 you also have to vote 655 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,166 that your elections were nullified as well." 656 00:24:56,166 --> 00:24:58,800 Which was cheeky, you gotta give it to him. 657 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,566 He's basically saying, "All you Republicans 658 00:25:00,566 --> 00:25:01,933 from Pennsylvania-" - It's logical, it's logical. 659 00:25:01,933 --> 00:25:04,333 - Yeah, "You're not elected either," 660 00:25:04,333 --> 00:25:06,700 which was, I mean, it's clever. 661 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:07,900 Right? - Yeah, it is. 662 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:09,133 - I mean, he didn't advertise it, 663 00:25:09,133 --> 00:25:10,400 but that was pretty clever. 664 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,800 - Do you think, in the end, 665 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,766 that we're gonna get through this cycle upright? 666 00:25:13,766 --> 00:25:15,700 I mean, are we heading off the cliff again? 667 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:17,066 We have about 30 seconds. 668 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,666 Do you feel hopeful about where this is all going? 669 00:25:20,666 --> 00:25:23,466 - It's always a struggle, as Winston Churchill says, 670 00:25:23,466 --> 00:25:26,066 "You can always count on the American people 671 00:25:26,066 --> 00:25:30,133 to do the right thing after they have exhausted every single 672 00:25:30,133 --> 00:25:31,333 other opportunity." - Other opportunity. 673 00:25:31,333 --> 00:25:33,000 (audience laughing) 674 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,433 I wanted you to make me feel better here at the end. 675 00:25:36,433 --> 00:25:37,733 - I'm just going to the end of it. 676 00:25:37,733 --> 00:25:38,966 - Okay, all right, good. 677 00:25:38,966 --> 00:25:40,333 Okay, well, speaking of the end of it, 678 00:25:40,333 --> 00:25:41,266 we're at the end of it. 679 00:25:41,266 --> 00:25:42,700 Jake, it's great to see you. 680 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:43,500 - Thank you so much. - Everybody, Jake Tapper. 681 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:46,166 (audience clapping) 682 00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:49,966 (gentle music) 683 00:25:49,966 --> 00:25:51,900 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 684 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:55,633 Visit our website at: AustinPBS.org/overheard 685 00:25:55,633 --> 00:25:57,666 to find invitations to interviews, 686 00:25:57,666 --> 00:25:59,933 Q and As with our audience and guests, 687 00:25:59,933 --> 00:26:02,200 and an archive of past episodes. 688 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,200 - Pence was on Sunday and I asked him about the UAW strike. 689 00:26:09,166 --> 00:26:10,733 Like, and then, basically, the question was like, 690 00:26:10,733 --> 00:26:15,733 is it fair that the head of GM makes 362 times more 691 00:26:16,833 --> 00:26:18,666 than what her average employee makes? 692 00:26:18,666 --> 00:26:21,133 You know, he gave kind of an answer like, 693 00:26:21,133 --> 00:26:23,166 "You know, it's up to the shareholders 694 00:26:23,166 --> 00:26:25,100 and they can pressure people." 695 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:27,200 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 696 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,566 is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 697 00:26:30,566 --> 00:26:33,600 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 698 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,633 Claire and Carl Stuart, 699 00:26:35,633 --> 00:26:37,900 and by Christine and Philip Dial. 700 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:39,433 (no audio) 701 00:26:39,433 --> 00:26:42,300 (gentle music) 702 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:44,566 (no audio)