WEBVTT 00:00.600 --> 00:02.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (no audio) 00:02.100 --> 00:03.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 00:03.366 --> 00:06.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 00:06.300 --> 00:09.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:09.300 --> 00:11.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 00:11.333 --> 00:13.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and by Christine and Philip Dial. 00:13.500 --> 00:15.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (no audio) 00:15.400 --> 00:16.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:16.633 --> 00:18.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's one of the most recognizable, 00:18.333 --> 00:21.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% likable, and trusted journalists working today. 00:21.500 --> 00:25.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% A longtime CNN anchor, who's also a bestselling author. 00:25.300 --> 00:28.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% His third novel, "All the Demons are Here," 00:28.100 --> 00:29.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% has just been published. 00:29.500 --> 00:31.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's Jake Tapper. 00:31.200 --> 00:32.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is "Overheard." 00:32.333 --> 00:33.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (gentle music) 00:33.600 --> 00:36.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing." 00:36.700 --> 00:38.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You really turned the conversation around 00:38.633 --> 00:40.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about what leadership should be about. 00:40.833 --> 00:42.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Are we blowing this? 00:42.133 --> 00:43.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 00:43.900 --> 00:45.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by giving in to the attention junkie? 00:45.933 --> 00:48.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 00:48.333 --> 00:50.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 00:50.366 --> 00:52.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Two. - This is "Overheard." 00:52.066 --> 00:54.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (gentle music) 00:54.266 --> 00:56.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience clapping) 00:56.933 --> 00:59.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jake, it's so good to have you back in Austin. 00:59.000 --> 01:00.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Always great to be here, thanks so much, Evan. 01:00.333 --> 01:01.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Thanks so much for being on the show. 01:01.600 --> 01:03.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - Of course. - So you used to be a TV guy 01:03.066 --> 01:05.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% who wrote novels as a sideline, 01:05.333 --> 01:08.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and you're becoming a novelist who does a little TV. 01:08.866 --> 01:10.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - No, no, no, no. 01:10.533 --> 01:12.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% The TV journalism is still my main passion. 01:12.966 --> 01:15.200 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I still love going into work every day. 01:15.200 --> 01:16.700 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% The novels are fun. 01:16.700 --> 01:19.766 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I might go back to nonfiction when it comes to books. 01:19.766 --> 01:21.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I do miss that. 01:21.700 --> 01:24.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But, no, the broadcast journalism is still- 01:24.800 --> 01:27.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - This is not a sign, you're crying for help or something? 01:27.200 --> 01:28.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, no, no. - This is actually, 01:28.233 --> 01:29.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Get me off of television." 01:29.966 --> 01:32.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's a nice escape from my day-to-day job, 01:32.633 --> 01:34.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is, I don't know if you've noticed, 01:34.600 --> 01:36.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but the news is not all good. 01:37.700 --> 01:39.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Tough times, I agree. - It's a lot of bad news. 01:39.366 --> 01:41.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, we're gonna come back and talk about that. 01:41.066 --> 01:43.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Look, I would say it's escapism for us also. 01:43.333 --> 01:44.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I've now read all three of these books. 01:44.633 --> 01:46.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, you have. - And I will tell you 01:46.166 --> 01:48.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that I found myself lost in the middle of a difficult day, 01:48.766 --> 01:51.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or at a tough moment at work, you turn to this book. 01:51.500 --> 01:53.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's really great. - Thank you. 01:53.133 --> 01:54.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You have a natural flare for this. 01:54.700 --> 01:58.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's three books, but the reality is it's a series. 01:58.166 --> 02:00.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, well, it's about one family 02:00.433 --> 02:03.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and their trip through the '50s, the '60s, and the '70s. 02:03.433 --> 02:04.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And that's the conceit. 02:04.966 --> 02:07.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the first book, "Hellfire Club," was set in the '50s. 02:07.700 --> 02:10.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - During the Joe McCarthy era, the Eisenhower years. 02:10.166 --> 02:11.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Second book is set in the '60s. 02:11.766 --> 02:14.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, the Rat Pack. - Rat Pack, you guys... 02:14.800 --> 02:15.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You guys, by which I mean the Marders, your characters. 02:15.733 --> 02:17.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - The Marder family, yeah. 02:17.733 --> 02:19.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - They're out on the West Coast 02:19.000 --> 02:20.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the direction of Robert Kennedy. 02:20.700 --> 02:23.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's a great book, people should read it, 02:23.200 --> 02:25.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and have adventures out in California. 02:25.533 --> 02:27.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then, this third book is set in the '70s. 02:27.766 --> 02:31.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It's their two kids who are in the second book, 02:31.800 --> 02:34.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they're now in their twenties and it's 1977, 02:34.766 --> 02:38.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's the whole weird era of the '70s. 02:38.300 --> 02:40.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, I initially was gonna pass the '70s 02:40.400 --> 02:42.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause this is the first one that I was alive for, 02:42.600 --> 02:44.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was eight in the '70s. 02:44.100 --> 02:46.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, you were born in 1969, I was born in '66. 02:46.766 --> 02:51.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Just judging by myself, I don't remember a ton of the '70s. 02:51.000 --> 02:52.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Of what goes on in this book, 02:52.466 --> 02:56.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I remember gas lines and Elvis dying, that's about it. 02:56.133 --> 02:57.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But you also had Jimmy Carter elected. 02:57.966 --> 02:59.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You had a blackout in New York City. 02:59.466 --> 03:00.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I don't remember that though. 03:00.800 --> 03:02.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Studio 54 opening, a lot of stuff happened. 03:02.900 --> 03:04.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, you might not be surprised 03:04.333 --> 03:06.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I was not hip to the Studio 54 opening. 03:06.466 --> 03:08.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - At that time, at age seven, or whatever, yeah. 03:08.166 --> 03:09.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - And my parents were pretty good 03:09.700 --> 03:13.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at keeping the entire Son of Sam serial killer thing 03:13.433 --> 03:15.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% away from me when they were making me 03:15.233 --> 03:17.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% watch "Sesame Street" and "Mister Roger's." 03:17.533 --> 03:20.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I will say I was gonna skip the era 03:20.366 --> 03:23.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I thought it was just kind of lame, 03:23.100 --> 03:24.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause that's how it's portrayed. 03:24.733 --> 03:27.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But it actually was a wild era. 03:27.066 --> 03:30.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% First of all, you have a nation, an entire country 03:30.900 --> 03:34.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that is tremendously disillusioned with the government. 03:34.466 --> 03:35.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Post-Watergate. - Post-Watergate. 03:35.766 --> 03:37.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Another thing that happened in the '70s, 03:37.000 --> 03:39.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's right, yes. - And post-Vietnam. 03:39.666 --> 03:44.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The country is not trusting its leaders in a major way. 03:44.100 --> 03:47.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, that's how Jimmy Carter got elected, barely. 03:47.566 --> 03:49.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because he said, "I will not lie to you." 03:49.900 --> 03:51.366 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 03:51.366 --> 03:53.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And then, there was just the rampant mistrust, 03:53.800 --> 03:56.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and just a whole bunch of weird things happening. 03:56.633 --> 03:58.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was the rise of tabloid journalism 03:58.700 --> 04:00.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because of the Summer of Sam, 04:00.466 --> 04:02.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the "New York Post," the "New York Daily News." 04:02.700 --> 04:04.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Anyway, one of the main characters in the book, 04:04.366 --> 04:05.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there are two main characters, Ike and Lucy, 04:05.866 --> 04:08.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the kids of the Marders, Charlie and Margaret, 04:08.233 --> 04:10.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who are the main characters in the first two books. 04:10.066 --> 04:13.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Ike is an AWOL marine, disillusioned with the government. 04:13.333 --> 04:14.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - 20 years old. - 20 years old. 04:14.866 --> 04:16.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - We first meet him in Montana. 04:16.400 --> 04:17.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He has gone AWOL, 04:17.766 --> 04:19.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he is working on Evel Knievel's pit crew. 04:19.600 --> 04:20.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Pit crew, that's the thing. 04:20.966 --> 04:23.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Evel Knievel is a character in this book. 04:23.233 --> 04:24.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - A pretty big one. - Significant. 04:24.666 --> 04:26.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I started getting comfortable with the idea 04:26.166 --> 04:30.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of having real characters be major characters in the book. 04:30.466 --> 04:32.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I did it a little bit in the first book. 04:32.300 --> 04:34.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I had Joe McCarthy, and Roy Cohn, 04:34.600 --> 04:37.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Estes Kefauver as characters. 04:38.800 --> 04:40.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At first, I was uncomfortable with it. 04:40.766 --> 04:41.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% In the second draft, 04:41.966 --> 04:43.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I got a little bit more comfortable with it. 04:43.566 --> 04:45.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the second book, I just went all in, 04:45.600 --> 04:46.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I had Sinatra be a big character in it. 04:46.833 --> 04:49.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Sinatra was a part of it at one point, yeah. 04:49.000 --> 04:50.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And because if you're gonna do it, 04:50.200 --> 04:51.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just have fun with it, right? 04:51.400 --> 04:52.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, you can't have them doing things 04:52.800 --> 04:53.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% they would never do. 04:53.800 --> 04:55.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It has to be believable. - Right. 04:55.700 --> 04:58.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And then, this one, I'm a friend of mine pushed me 04:58.900 --> 05:00.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to look more into Evel Knievel. 05:00.500 --> 05:04.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'Cause his charm completely escaped me when I was a kid. 05:04.433 --> 05:05.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah. - He wasn't really an athlete, 05:05.966 --> 05:07.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he was on the cover of "Sports Illustrated." 05:07.600 --> 05:08.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's on the cover of "Rolling Stone." 05:08.833 --> 05:10.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - He's a phenomenon. - He was a phenomenon. 05:10.300 --> 05:12.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there is something interesting 05:12.200 --> 05:15.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and archetypal American about him, 05:15.300 --> 05:19.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a salesman, a showman, he's not a great motorcyclist, 05:19.266 --> 05:21.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but he's willing to do things that others aren't. 05:21.600 --> 05:22.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's willing to jump over 05:22.833 --> 05:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and do these stunts at others don't match. 05:24.000 --> 05:25.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - But as you portray him, 05:25.533 --> 05:27.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and, you know, we can come back to this if you want, 05:27.433 --> 05:31.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the book, formally, he's not a really good person. 05:31.633 --> 05:32.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, he's a bad person. - Right? 05:32.833 --> 05:34.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He has terrible personal attributes 05:34.466 --> 05:36.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are on display all through the book. 05:36.500 --> 05:37.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Let me go back to the Marders. 05:37.966 --> 05:39.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the Marders are the through line, as you say. 05:39.766 --> 05:42.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In the first book, Charlie Marder becomes a congressman 05:42.566 --> 05:45.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because his predecessor, I believe, commits... 05:45.866 --> 05:48.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I don't wanna get into it, but yeah, he dies. 05:48.500 --> 05:49.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - He dies let's just say. 05:49.966 --> 05:52.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, initially, what we're told, or we think is- 05:52.300 --> 05:53.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Jake] Is that he committed suicide. 05:53.766 --> 05:54.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - He committed suicide. - Right. 05:54.966 --> 05:56.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And he had bee a professor at Columbia? 05:56.633 --> 05:58.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Charlie, he's a history professor. 05:58.166 --> 06:00.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And so he's a Republican, but he's a New York Republican. 06:00.766 --> 06:02.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, he's a Dewey, Rockefeller Republican. 06:02.333 --> 06:05.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You know what we call that person in Texas? 06:05.733 --> 06:06.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% A Democrat. 06:06.900 --> 06:07.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (Jake laughing) That's exactly right. 06:09.000 --> 06:13.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So Charlie Marder starts out in the first book 06:13.400 --> 06:14.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as a member of Congress. 06:14.333 --> 06:15.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% By the time we get to this book, 06:15.566 --> 06:16.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Charlie Marder is now a United States Senator. 06:16.833 --> 06:18.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - He's a senator, yeah. - United States Senator. 06:18.766 --> 06:20.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% His wife Margaret is a zoologist. 06:20.366 --> 06:23.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And as you say, Ike and Lucy are in the second book. 06:23.366 --> 06:26.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, Lucy is in Margaret's, 06:26.666 --> 06:27.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is in utero in the first book. 06:27.833 --> 06:29.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - In the first book? - Yeah. 06:29.100 --> 06:30.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But by the time we encounter them here, 06:30.766 --> 06:32.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Ike, I think is 20, Lucy is 22. 06:32.900 --> 06:34.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ike, as you say, is an AWOL marine 06:34.400 --> 06:35.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% working on the pit crew of Evel Knievel. 06:35.866 --> 06:38.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Lucy is a journalist for a respectable newspaper in D.C. 06:38.866 --> 06:41.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - "The Washington Star." - But then becomes 06:41.200 --> 06:43.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a journalist for one of these new... 06:43.500 --> 06:44.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Tabloids. - Tabloids. 06:44.733 --> 06:48.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So she gets wooed by a fictitious family, 06:48.300 --> 06:50.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the Lyon family. 06:50.133 --> 06:53.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Maxwell Lyon is very directly, 06:53.400 --> 06:54.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm not hiding this at all- 06:54.333 --> 06:55.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, you've acknowledged it. 06:55.433 --> 06:57.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, based on Rupert Murdoch. 06:57.000 --> 07:00.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, he's British, not Australian, 07:00.533 --> 07:02.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he is very directly based on Rupert Murdoch. 07:02.533 --> 07:04.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that's because in this era, 07:07.600 --> 07:10.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Robert Maxwell and Rupert Murdoch 07:10.066 --> 07:11.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are coming into the United States 07:11.766 --> 07:14.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and expanding their media empires. 07:14.100 --> 07:17.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And actually it was in San Antonio 07:17.233 --> 07:21.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Murdoch first bought newspapers. 07:21.833 --> 07:23.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Indeed. - And first, 07:23.866 --> 07:26.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% actually successfully, like had a, 07:26.133 --> 07:31.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think he bucked trends by having an afternoon newspaper. 07:32.200 --> 07:33.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is when afternoon newspapers 07:33.433 --> 07:34.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were closing all over the country. 07:34.900 --> 07:38.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But by having a sensationalist newspaper in San Antonio, 07:38.200 --> 07:39.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he kept it alive. 07:39.733 --> 07:42.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he is the one, I found out by doing the research 07:42.166 --> 07:44.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for this book on Rupert Murdoch, 07:44.400 --> 07:48.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the reason I was terrified of killer bees as a kid 07:48.333 --> 07:49.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is because of Rupert Murdoch. 07:49.833 --> 07:51.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Because of something that ran on- 07:51.366 --> 07:55.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Because the "San Antonio News" and "Express," 07:55.433 --> 07:58.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when at the time they were two different newspapers, 07:58.166 --> 08:02.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% were scaring the holy, whatever I can say on PBS, 08:02.300 --> 08:05.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they were scaring everybody about these killer bees 08:05.266 --> 08:06.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that were gonna come and kill everybody. 08:06.766 --> 08:09.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, well, the concept of the front page, 08:09.966 --> 08:11.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which, you know, you refer to the headline on the front page 08:11.466 --> 08:13.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% as the Wood. - The Wood. 08:13.033 --> 08:14.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Like, we still talk about the "New York Post" 08:14.700 --> 08:15.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and "The Daily News" in New York. 08:15.633 --> 08:17.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, what's on the Wood? 08:17.200 --> 08:19.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Something happens, what's the Wood tomorrow 08:19.000 --> 08:20.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% gonna be for this? 08:20.000 --> 08:21.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - "Headless body in topless bar." 08:21.533 --> 08:23.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - "Topless bar," would be an example of that, right. 08:23.100 --> 08:24.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - That's a famous "New York Post," perhaps- 08:24.433 --> 08:27.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Evan] That is totally true, totally true. 08:27.733 --> 08:29.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Perhaps their best one. 08:29.200 --> 08:31.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, but also, was there not during the '70s, 08:31.800 --> 08:34.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Ford to New York: Drop Dead"? 08:34.433 --> 08:35.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, "Ford to New York: Drop Dead," 08:35.700 --> 08:36.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he refused, yeah, to bail out the city. 08:36.500 --> 08:37.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - To bail out the city, 08:37.733 --> 08:39.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% "Ford to New York: Drop Dead," was also Wood. 08:39.166 --> 08:41.400 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% So the tabloid culture, 08:41.400 --> 08:44.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% the concept of the front page of stories 08:44.433 --> 08:47.000 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% that honestly have some facts but are juiced- 08:47.000 --> 08:48.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Juiced to make the Wood. 08:48.500 --> 08:50.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - To make the Wood, that is a huge piece of this book. 08:50.533 --> 08:52.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So this book gets into journalism, 08:52.266 --> 08:55.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not in a journalism school, lecturey way. 08:55.033 --> 08:59.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But Lucy is given a story that is, 08:59.900 --> 09:01.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% she comes to this newspaper 09:01.866 --> 09:04.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and immediately she's covering a serial killer. 09:05.700 --> 09:10.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And her stories are goosed to get on the front page, 09:11.066 --> 09:12.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to get on the Wood. - Yep. 09:12.500 --> 09:15.600 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - And she loves the attention and she loves the fame, 09:15.600 --> 09:17.100 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% but she also has, you know- 09:17.100 --> 09:18.833 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - Misgivings. - Misgivings about the fact 09:18.833 --> 09:22.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% that some of her facts are being tweaked 09:22.266 --> 09:24.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to give more attention. 09:25.766 --> 09:27.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Because she is getting scoops 09:27.100 --> 09:30.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that no other journalist in town gets, 09:30.166 --> 09:33.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% she's being invited to come on local TV. 09:33.600 --> 09:37.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She has a showdown with two actual legendary, 09:37.066 --> 09:42.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the first two Black co-anchors in, I think, 09:43.233 --> 09:45.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% any major metropolitan market in D.C. history. 09:45.633 --> 09:47.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% She has a showdown with them, they were real people. 09:47.633 --> 09:49.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That showdown did not actually happen, of course, 09:49.500 --> 09:51.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'cause Lucy does not exist. 09:51.900 --> 09:54.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - This is fiction. - This is fiction. 09:54.000 --> 09:55.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But they were heroes in D.C. 09:55.533 --> 09:57.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and so I wanted to have this showdown. 09:57.200 --> 10:01.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But it gets into a lot of what we are dealing with today, 10:01.533 --> 10:05.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because, obviously, Murdoch and the tabloidization of news, 10:05.533 --> 10:08.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and not just Fox, although, obviously, 10:08.333 --> 10:13.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that is the most consequential example 10:13.233 --> 10:16.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we're dealing with when you think of January 6th 10:16.100 --> 10:18.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and all the lies that were told on that channel then, 10:18.766 --> 10:22.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the tabloidization of media that exists 10:22.100 --> 10:25.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% almost everywhere, perhaps with the one exception of PBS, 10:26.766 --> 10:28.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is something that we all deal with. 10:28.066 --> 10:29.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Right, it feels very familiar, 10:29.666 --> 10:30.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you're reading the book today, 10:30.800 --> 10:32.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to go back and to look at that. 10:32.266 --> 10:33.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Talk about the process. 10:33.700 --> 10:36.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You alluded to doing research, again, kid of the '70s 10:36.033 --> 10:37.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who doesn't necessarily remember much from the '70s. 10:37.833 --> 10:39.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You've gotta do research to augment this. 10:39.333 --> 10:41.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You're a busy guy. - Yeah. 10:41.000 --> 10:43.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You host a couple shows on CNN. 10:43.200 --> 10:45.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You're at the center of so much activity 10:45.133 --> 10:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% kind of in and around politics and current events, 10:47.733 --> 10:48.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% news, these days. 10:48.966 --> 10:50.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You've got a family. 10:50.300 --> 10:52.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% When are you writing this book? 10:52.500 --> 10:54.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, first of all, you need to understand 10:54.166 --> 10:57.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I love the research. 10:57.733 --> 11:00.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I love the history, it's enjoyable for me. 11:00.833 --> 11:03.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Like, right now, I am reading a book called "Scoundrel," 11:03.633 --> 11:08.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is about this murderer that William F. Buckley 11:08.500 --> 11:11.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% took up his cause and got him out of prison. 11:11.800 --> 11:13.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Edgar Smith, I don't know if you know the story. 11:13.800 --> 11:15.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - This is a nonfiction book? 11:15.000 --> 11:18.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - This is a nonfiction book, Edgar Smith. 11:18.100 --> 11:19.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't wanna ruin it for you, but it's just really... 11:19.966 --> 11:22.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% A true story about a PBS alum, 11:22.633 --> 11:24.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who got this guy out of prison. 11:24.600 --> 11:27.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Long story short, doesn't end so well. 11:27.466 --> 11:29.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But it's a great story. 11:30.833 --> 11:34.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I just love it, I mean, I love history, so it's fun. 11:34.166 --> 11:35.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's enjoyable for me. 11:35.700 --> 11:36.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm the guy that, you know, 11:36.933 --> 11:39.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when Kevin McCarthy's going through 15 votes, 11:39.200 --> 11:43.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm the guy on our stage in our studio 11:43.433 --> 11:45.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on newspapers.com looking at, like, 11:45.466 --> 11:47.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% newspapers from like 1820 to find out, 11:47.400 --> 11:49.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, what the vote count was, 11:49.866 --> 11:52.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% like, you know, when they went through like multiple ballots 11:52.533 --> 11:54.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in previous times, it's fun for me. 11:54.066 --> 11:57.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So this is not work for you, although it does take time. 11:57.166 --> 12:00.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It takes time, but I love it, I do like it, it's fun. 12:00.600 --> 12:03.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - How long does it take you to write a book like this? 12:03.000 --> 12:04.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - A couple years, a couple years. 12:04.500 --> 12:07.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, and in fact, you're already at work on a book. 12:07.066 --> 12:09.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, right now I'm taking a little bit of a pause 12:09.000 --> 12:10.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'cause I have a few ideas 12:10.266 --> 12:11.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I need to figure out what I wanna- 12:11.533 --> 12:12.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I thought you were working on a book 12:12.700 --> 12:13.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about the '80s that was set 12:13.800 --> 12:15.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the 40th anniversary of D-Day. 12:15.033 --> 12:17.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Didn't you say that? - I was, I was, but- 12:17.200 --> 12:18.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - That might've, in fact, had the Marders. 12:18.500 --> 12:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was the fourth, eventually, yeah? 12:19.700 --> 12:21.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, yeah, that will be the next book. 12:21.600 --> 12:25.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I have a couple nonfiction ideas and I have to figure- 12:25.466 --> 12:26.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So we may have to wait for that one? 12:26.933 --> 12:29.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah, I wanna figure out what I wanna do next. 12:29.666 --> 12:31.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there were a couple nonfiction ideas, 12:31.300 --> 12:34.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and I haven't written a nonfiction book since "The Outpost," 12:34.000 --> 12:37.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about Afghanistan that came out in 2012, 12:37.133 --> 12:38.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I kind of missed that. 12:38.300 --> 12:39.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And there are a couple, 12:39.500 --> 12:42.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I really do love nonfiction too, 12:42.100 --> 12:43.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so I just have to figure it out. 12:43.266 --> 12:44.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So you'll be continuing to write, 12:44.733 --> 12:45.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but we'll just sort of see what the sequence is? 12:45.733 --> 12:50.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, the one about the world, 12:50.200 --> 12:51.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the next book in the series 12:51.633 --> 12:55.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% would be on a ship that takes place 12:55.300 --> 12:57.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on the anniversary of D-Day. 12:57.500 --> 12:59.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - It's 1984. - In 1984, 12:59.033 --> 13:00.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the 40th anniversary of D-Day. 13:00.366 --> 13:01.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're about next year we're gonna celebrate 13:01.833 --> 13:03.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the 80th anniversary. 13:03.500 --> 13:06.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This would be like, kind of like a "Death on the Nile," 13:06.300 --> 13:08.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% except on the 40th anniversary of D-Day, 13:08.333 --> 13:12.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a ship that is sailing to Normandy Beach. 13:13.733 --> 13:16.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it's filled with all these World War II 13:16.266 --> 13:17.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% heroes and celebrities, 13:17.533 --> 13:20.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the first day, one of the generals disappears. 13:20.700 --> 13:22.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah, well, I have to say, 13:22.266 --> 13:23.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when I read that description of the book, I thought, 13:23.766 --> 13:25.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "Well, okay, bring it." 13:25.000 --> 13:26.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm looking forward to actually see this book. 13:26.800 --> 13:28.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we talked about Fox a little bit 13:28.333 --> 13:29.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in and around and Murdoch. 13:29.800 --> 13:33.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You gave an interview to Scott Simon of NPR recently, 13:33.533 --> 13:36.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in which you said something to the effect of, 13:36.333 --> 13:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing, 13:40.200 --> 13:41.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it can do damage." 13:41.366 --> 13:42.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, it's a responsibility. 13:42.866 --> 13:44.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It absolutely is, and you were talking specifically 13:44.700 --> 13:47.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about the Boston Marathon bombing. 13:47.133 --> 13:48.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the, so-called, "Bag Men" picture 13:48.933 --> 13:50.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that appeared on the front page of the "New York Post," 13:50.866 --> 13:52.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or in the "New York Post," I guess. 13:52.266 --> 13:53.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It was on the front page. - Front page, right. 13:53.266 --> 13:54.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah. - Where they identified 13:54.700 --> 13:56.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% two people and they sort of made it look like 13:56.666 --> 13:59.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% these were people involved with the bombing, 13:59.066 --> 14:00.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% turned out not to be and they sued. 14:00.700 --> 14:01.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - They sued, they got money. 14:01.766 --> 14:03.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - They sued successfully the "Post." 14:03.166 --> 14:05.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You were referring to that with that quote. 14:05.833 --> 14:08.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, of course, I heard you say that, and I thought, 14:08.200 --> 14:10.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "He's talking about Fox News." 14:10.433 --> 14:12.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "A platform and a voice is a powerful thing 14:12.933 --> 14:13.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it can do damage." 14:13.933 --> 14:15.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, they're both News Corp. 14:15.600 --> 14:16.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Right, but I was thinking, 14:16.866 --> 14:20.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I took the quote to another extreme. 14:20.100 --> 14:21.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - They're both Murdoch. - Yeah. 14:21.366 --> 14:23.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So same-same, as far as you're concerned? 14:23.466 --> 14:25.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I mean, it's the same ethos. 14:25.933 --> 14:27.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's the same, it doesn't matter. 14:27.633 --> 14:29.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But, of course, Fox News has so much more, 14:29.366 --> 14:30.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'll push a little bit on this, 14:30.866 --> 14:35.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in that Fox News has so much more of a pervasive reach 14:35.200 --> 14:36.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% than the "New York Post" does. - Yes, sure. 14:36.833 --> 14:38.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Even the iconic "New York Post." 14:38.700 --> 14:40.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What we've witnessed for the last several years, since- 14:40.833 --> 14:42.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But when you said the iconic "New York Post," 14:42.266 --> 14:45.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, I think if Alexander Hamilton woke up 14:45.433 --> 14:46.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and saw what was being done 14:46.633 --> 14:47.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to the iconic "New York Post-" 14:47.733 --> 14:48.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He might vomit. 14:48.666 --> 14:50.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I mean, I think he would say, 14:50.066 --> 14:53.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Oh my god, kill me again." (audience laughing) 14:53.233 --> 14:55.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - After vomiting, right, yeah. 14:55.366 --> 14:58.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I'm thinking about just the last two years. 14:58.133 --> 15:01.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And what we have seen come out through court action, 15:01.933 --> 15:06.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, and leaks about texts and everything else, 15:06.000 --> 15:10.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what's happened at Fox has indeed done damage, has it not? 15:10.566 --> 15:13.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - To the Murdoch brand? - To all of us. 15:13.666 --> 15:15.066 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Yes. - Yes? 15:15.066 --> 15:17.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yes, it hurts all of journalism. 15:18.333 --> 15:21.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, all of it does damage, all of it does damage. 15:25.100 --> 15:28.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Anytime there is bad journalism, it hurts all of us. 15:28.800 --> 15:30.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Right, I mean, the reality 15:30.033 --> 15:31.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is we're all painted by the same brush. 15:31.366 --> 15:32.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Right, right. 15:33.666 --> 15:35.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, one of the things that's different about Fox 15:35.600 --> 15:39.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is Fox attacks everyone else. 15:39.633 --> 15:44.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I mean, they're not just providing a center-right channel, 15:44.566 --> 15:46.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which, you know, as far as I'm concerned, 15:46.966 --> 15:48.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% would be fine, who caress? 15:48.300 --> 15:49.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I mean, that's great. 15:49.700 --> 15:51.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There should be a center-right alternative. 15:51.500 --> 15:53.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And, to be honest, for many years, 15:53.133 --> 15:54.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% until the last couple of years, 15:54.866 --> 15:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it sort of kind of was just that, sort of. 15:57.166 --> 16:00.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I would say until the war in Iraq maybe. 16:00.900 --> 16:02.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So you would go back even farther? 16:02.366 --> 16:05.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Yeah, because they really became a propaganda arm 16:06.333 --> 16:07.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the Bush White House. 16:07.566 --> 16:10.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think that's really when it started to, 16:10.633 --> 16:13.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because yes, in the '90s, I think it was center-right. 16:13.833 --> 16:16.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with, 16:16.166 --> 16:19.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I remember Tucker Carlson, years ago, 16:19.100 --> 16:21.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% giving a speech at maybe CPAC or something like that, 16:21.166 --> 16:24.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% talking about how instead of complaining about the media, 16:24.300 --> 16:25.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% why don't conservatives do something 16:25.566 --> 16:27.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like put out their own version 16:27.166 --> 16:29.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of a center-right "New York Times"? 16:30.433 --> 16:31.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And that's a reasonable thing 16:31.433 --> 16:32.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as far as you're concerned? 16:32.433 --> 16:33.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Why not? - Why not? 16:33.900 --> 16:35.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Right, I mean, Tucker Carlson used to be on CNN. 16:35.333 --> 16:36.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We've come a long way. 16:36.666 --> 16:38.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Tucker Carlson used to be on MSNBC. 16:38.400 --> 16:41.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Right, we have come a very long way, right. 16:41.900 --> 16:45.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But I don't think, I mean, yeah, why not? 16:45.366 --> 16:48.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, like, I think that "The Weekly Standard," 16:48.500 --> 16:50.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% may it rest in peace, was a magazine I read all the time. 16:50.766 --> 16:52.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I read the "National Review." 16:52.800 --> 16:54.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, there are many more options in that space 16:54.833 --> 16:56.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% than there used to be. - Yeah, there's nothing wrong 16:56.300 --> 16:57.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with alternative points of view. 16:57.966 --> 16:59.333 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 16:59.333 --> 17:00.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I think that the challenge 17:00.733 --> 17:04.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is when they subscribe to the Murdoch model, 17:04.366 --> 17:07.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is that news consumer behavior 17:07.200 --> 17:10.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is driven by fear or rage. 17:10.833 --> 17:11.666 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 17:13.300 --> 17:15.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And once you see that, you can't unsee it, 17:15.966 --> 17:17.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that is what they are trying 17:17.233 --> 17:21.500 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% to get news consumers to react to, fear or rage. 17:21.500 --> 17:23.000 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% "You should be mad at these people. 17:23.000 --> 17:25.033 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% You should be scared about these people." 17:25.033 --> 17:27.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - Right. - And that is what they do. 17:27.333 --> 17:32.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And they're always telling their viewers or readers, 17:33.533 --> 17:35.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Don't trust Evan, don't trust Jake. 17:35.233 --> 17:39.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Don't trust anyone else, you should only trust us." 17:39.033 --> 17:40.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - "We're the only ones." 17:40.500 --> 17:42.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, there's a line in the back of this book. 17:42.800 --> 17:45.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "No one is more opaque than wealthy media families 17:45.466 --> 17:48.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who demand transparency from everyone else." 17:48.266 --> 17:49.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That was a line that you wrote in this book. 17:49.866 --> 17:52.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I thought to myself, it's so interesting because- 17:52.400 --> 17:54.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I was talking about the Lyon family. 17:54.200 --> 17:56.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But, of course, I roll it forward and say, 17:56.866 --> 17:59.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "How much don't we know about what Fox has done 17:59.733 --> 18:02.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and not done over the last couple years behind the scenes?" 18:02.366 --> 18:03.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Sure, of course, well, yeah, 18:03.866 --> 18:05.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of course, I'm talking about the Murdochs. 18:05.233 --> 18:07.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - We don't hold ourselves, as an industry, 18:07.200 --> 18:08.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have an obligation to hold ourselves 18:08.700 --> 18:10.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 18:10.600 --> 18:12.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We should be as transparent. 18:12.300 --> 18:14.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, of course. 18:14.266 --> 18:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, I mean, when you look at the Dominion lawsuit, 18:17.333 --> 18:19.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you look at the texts that came out, 18:19.300 --> 18:20.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the fact that they knew 18:20.900 --> 18:23.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that they were lying to their viewers. 18:23.266 --> 18:27.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the only reason they were lying to their viewers 18:27.066 --> 18:29.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is because they were only concerned 18:29.533 --> 18:32.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about losing them as viewers. 18:32.400 --> 18:36.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They were only concerned about money 18:36.500 --> 18:38.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the business end of things. 18:38.066 --> 18:39.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They had no concern about the truth. 18:39.833 --> 18:43.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They had no concern about the journalism. 18:43.200 --> 18:47.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That shows you, ultimately, what they care about. 18:47.233 --> 18:50.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that shows me that they're not 18:50.300 --> 18:51.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the same business that I'm in. 18:51.966 --> 18:53.366 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% - So let's talk about the business you're in, 18:53.366 --> 18:55.033 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% the inevitable CNN question. - Sure. 18:55.033 --> 18:57.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - It's been a challenging year, or so, at CNN. 18:57.266 --> 18:58.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's been a challenging few years. 18:58.800 --> 19:00.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Few years, but specifically, 19:00.366 --> 19:03.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this year, there's been some churn in leadership, 19:03.600 --> 19:07.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the programming schedule hosts and so on have changed. 19:07.000 --> 19:08.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, you know, as I turn on the television at night, 19:08.833 --> 19:10.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I see Kaitlan Collins hosting, 19:10.300 --> 19:11.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% then I see Abby Phillip hosting. 19:11.700 --> 19:13.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Of course, I watch your show. 19:13.800 --> 19:15.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Things seem to have reset, am I wrong about that? 19:15.900 --> 19:18.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - No, I think we're in a good place now. 19:18.300 --> 19:22.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have a new leader, Sir Mark Thompson, who- 19:22.100 --> 19:23.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Had run "The New York Times" 19:23.466 --> 19:26.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and BBC before that. - Yeah, yeah, he seems great. 19:26.266 --> 19:28.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, serious guy. - Serious guy. 19:28.800 --> 19:30.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Serious news values. 19:31.866 --> 19:36.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Look, it's not fun to be in a news organization 19:36.333 --> 19:39.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that has a number of different leaders 19:39.400 --> 19:41.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in a number of different years. 19:41.200 --> 19:42.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's not fun. 19:43.933 --> 19:47.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But as a general note, you know, I've been on at four, 19:49.300 --> 19:51.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and except for like a few weeks right before the midterm 19:51.800 --> 19:54.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when the previous president, Chris Licht, 19:54.266 --> 19:56.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% asked me to do the nine o'clock just for a few weeks, 19:56.900 --> 19:59.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I've been on at four and we've just been doing the best show 19:59.966 --> 20:01.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we can do from four to six, 20:01.500 --> 20:06.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or here in Texas from three to five every day, 20:07.366 --> 20:08.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just doing the news as fairly 20:08.566 --> 20:11.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and as substantively as we can do it. 20:12.000 --> 20:14.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that's just the mission, 20:14.100 --> 20:16.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we've been trying to do that day in, day out, 20:16.166 --> 20:18.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% no matter who the president of our network is. 20:18.700 --> 20:20.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I feel like we're in a good place. 20:20.100 --> 20:22.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I look around at the anchors that we have at CNN, 20:22.566 --> 20:25.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whether it's Abby Phillip, or Kasie Hunt, or Dana Bash, 20:25.866 --> 20:28.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or, I mean, I'm not gonna name them all, 20:28.200 --> 20:29.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but they're all great. 20:29.400 --> 20:30.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I respect them all, I love them all, 20:30.866 --> 20:32.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's a really good place. 20:32.100 --> 20:34.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, yeah, I don't like all the stuff, 20:35.400 --> 20:36.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% all the churn as you put it. 20:36.900 --> 20:39.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - But down here, at ground level, the work is being done? 20:39.000 --> 20:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The work continues? - I think so. 20:40.200 --> 20:42.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there's no place I'd rather be, 20:42.600 --> 20:44.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like, you know, to be able to, 20:44.100 --> 20:45.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like, Clarissa Ward comes back 20:45.633 --> 20:47.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% from the Central African Republic 20:47.033 --> 20:49.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% doing a piece on the Wagner Group. 20:49.100 --> 20:50.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, there's no other channel 20:50.066 --> 20:51.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's doing that, you know? 20:51.466 --> 20:53.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Right, so we have about five minutes left. 20:53.166 --> 20:54.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I wanna ask you about the work, 20:54.966 --> 20:56.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which really relates back to something 20:56.300 --> 20:57.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we said earlier in this conversation, 20:57.900 --> 20:59.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is, "Oh my god, the news moment 20:59.700 --> 21:01.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the news environment that we're in." 21:01.000 --> 21:02.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Which we don't have to tell you, 21:02.033 --> 21:03.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because you're all in Texas 21:03.200 --> 21:05.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we just did a piece on our Sunday show 21:05.900 --> 21:09.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% about your attorney general being acquitted, 21:09.933 --> 21:13.000 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% despite a vast array of evidence 21:13.000 --> 21:17.466 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that the Republicans in the House voted 126 to 23. 21:17.466 --> 21:19.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% - A super majority of Republicans in the Texas House, right. 21:19.966 --> 21:23.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - After a serious investigation by House Republicans. 21:23.100 --> 21:25.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's a national story to be sure. 21:25.166 --> 21:27.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the reality is that all local is national these days, 21:27.800 --> 21:29.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and all national is local, right? 21:29.066 --> 21:30.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We know that everything 21:30.300 --> 21:32.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has kind of become all in the same bucket. 21:32.933 --> 21:34.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - When Republicans are even shocking 21:34.500 --> 21:36.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "The Wall Street Journal" editorial page. 21:36.366 --> 21:38.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (audience laughing) - That's news. 21:38.466 --> 21:39.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're heading into another election, Jake, 21:39.966 --> 21:41.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% this is really where I wanna go 21:41.266 --> 21:42.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with this part of the conversation is we're, 21:42.700 --> 21:46.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, about to have potentially a rematch from 2020. 21:46.666 --> 21:48.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wonder if you would reflect on what you see 21:48.933 --> 21:51.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% coming up the road as it relates to the '24 election, 21:51.966 --> 21:56.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and where the media should do the same or do different 21:56.966 --> 21:59.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as it covers this version. - I think it is very important 21:59.100 --> 22:02.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the news media not feel, 22:02.366 --> 22:05.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Okay, well, we're just gonna accept lies, 22:05.233 --> 22:09.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because this percentage of the country, it's okay with them. 22:09.500 --> 22:12.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Therefore, we're just gonna accept lies 22:12.100 --> 22:13.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because that's how it is." 22:15.000 --> 22:17.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That's not the business we're in. 22:17.600 --> 22:19.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have to call balls and strikes. 22:19.800 --> 22:21.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yep. - At the same time, 22:21.800 --> 22:23.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we can't pick a side. 22:23.133 --> 22:25.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We can't say, "Well, this is so horrible, 22:25.366 --> 22:28.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have to pretend that this is," 22:28.833 --> 22:30.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't need to be opaque about it, 22:30.433 --> 22:33.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% like, we can't say, "Well, because Donald Trump 22:33.266 --> 22:35.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what he did on January 6th is so awful, 22:35.766 --> 22:38.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have to pretend that like Hunter Biden 22:38.666 --> 22:42.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the millions he made off his dad's name 22:42.333 --> 22:43.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that there's nothing here." 22:43.833 --> 22:46.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't know what's here, I have no idea. 22:46.466 --> 22:48.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's a special counsel looking into it. 22:48.700 --> 22:50.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This is a legitimate news story. 22:50.400 --> 22:53.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Now, if they're lying about it in Congress, 22:53.533 --> 22:55.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if they're saying things that there's no evidence for, 22:55.600 --> 22:57.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't have to pretend there's evidence for it, 22:57.366 --> 23:00.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but all of it's legitimate for us to cover. 23:00.500 --> 23:01.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm not saying they're equivalent, 23:01.933 --> 23:05.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I'm saying we can't be blinded to this because of this. 23:05.766 --> 23:07.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You've had a position for a long time 23:07.266 --> 23:08.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you were not going to allow people 23:08.533 --> 23:10.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to come on the air and lie. 23:10.033 --> 23:11.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I remember you telling me last time you were in Austin 23:11.433 --> 23:15.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you would not book election deniers on your shows. 23:15.766 --> 23:19.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I said that we needed to have a conversation about it, 23:20.300 --> 23:22.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because if you're going to lie about that, 23:22.033 --> 23:23.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what won't you lie about? 23:24.566 --> 23:26.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I didn't have a ban in place. 23:26.433 --> 23:29.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I will tell you, I have had election deniers on. 23:29.666 --> 23:31.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - So that's actually not, 23:31.800 --> 23:33.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% my perception of it was that you were not willing 23:33.566 --> 23:36.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to have people on who you knew would not acknowledge 23:36.166 --> 23:37.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the election was legitimate. 23:37.366 --> 23:40.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I have had them on not to talk about that, 23:40.166 --> 23:41.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I don't like to book them. 23:41.833 --> 23:43.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm like always like, "Ugh." 23:43.733 --> 23:48.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, for instance, during Kevin McCarthy's 15 rounds, 23:49.933 --> 23:51.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, you wanna talk about some of the people 23:51.166 --> 23:52.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that were objecting to Kevin McCarthy, 23:52.866 --> 23:55.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a bunch of them were election liars. 23:55.766 --> 23:57.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I think what I told you at the time is I work in Texas. 23:57.900 --> 24:01.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If I didn't have election liars on... 24:01.033 --> 24:03.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 24:03.266 --> 24:05.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right. - There wouldn't be anything. 24:05.400 --> 24:07.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But, you know, there are a bunch of Texans 24:09.000 --> 24:10.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who did not vote that way, 24:10.266 --> 24:11.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who are very conservative. - Correct. 24:11.800 --> 24:13.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Crenshaw, McCaul. 24:13.733 --> 24:15.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Chip Roy. - Chip Roy. 24:15.200 --> 24:17.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Chip Roy is about as conservative as they get. 24:17.433 --> 24:19.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he actually did something very subversive. 24:19.566 --> 24:20.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Do you know what he did? 24:20.733 --> 24:22.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Congressman Chip Roy, 24:23.400 --> 24:25.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't think there's anyone to his right. 24:25.166 --> 24:29.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But Congressman Chip Roy offered an amendment 24:29.266 --> 24:30.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the floor of the House saying, 24:30.466 --> 24:34.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "If you vote against certifying the election 24:34.500 --> 24:37.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from Arizona or Pennsylvania," which is, 24:37.800 --> 24:40.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% those were the two votes that people voted against, 24:40.333 --> 24:43.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or voted, yeah, against certifying those states. 24:43.833 --> 24:46.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You also have to vote against counting 24:46.200 --> 24:48.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% anyone elected on those ballots. 24:48.033 --> 24:51.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, Pennsylvania Congressmen, Arizona Congressmen, 24:51.400 --> 24:52.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you also have to vote 24:52.600 --> 24:56.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that your elections were nullified as well." 24:56.166 --> 24:58.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Which was cheeky, you gotta give it to him. 24:58.800 --> 25:00.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's basically saying, "All you Republicans 25:00.566 --> 25:01.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from Pennsylvania-" - It's logical, it's logical. 25:01.933 --> 25:04.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, "You're not elected either," 25:04.333 --> 25:06.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which was, I mean, it's clever. 25:06.700 --> 25:07.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Right? - Yeah, it is. 25:07.900 --> 25:09.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, he didn't advertise it, 25:09.133 --> 25:10.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but that was pretty clever. 25:10.400 --> 25:11.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Do you think, in the end, 25:11.800 --> 25:13.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we're gonna get through this cycle upright? 25:13.766 --> 25:15.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, are we heading off the cliff again? 25:15.700 --> 25:17.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have about 30 seconds. 25:18.500 --> 25:20.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Do you feel hopeful about where this is all going? 25:20.666 --> 25:23.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - It's always a struggle, as Winston Churchill says, 25:23.466 --> 25:26.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You can always count on the American people 25:26.066 --> 25:30.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to do the right thing after they have exhausted every single 25:30.133 --> 25:31.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% other opportunity." - Other opportunity. 25:31.333 --> 25:33.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 25:33.000 --> 25:36.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I wanted you to make me feel better here at the end. 25:36.433 --> 25:37.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I'm just going to the end of it. 25:37.733 --> 25:38.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Okay, all right, good. 25:38.966 --> 25:40.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Okay, well, speaking of the end of it, 25:40.333 --> 25:41.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we're at the end of it. 25:41.266 --> 25:42.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Jake, it's great to see you. 25:42.700 --> 25:43.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Thank you so much. - Everybody, Jake Tapper. 25:43.500 --> 25:46.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience clapping) 25:48.700 --> 25:49.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (gentle music) 25:49.966 --> 25:51.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:51.900 --> 25:55.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at: AustinPBS.org/overheard 25:55.633 --> 25:57.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 25:57.666 --> 25:59.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Q and As with our audience and guests, 25:59.933 --> 26:02.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:02.200 --> 26:07.200 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - Pence was on Sunday and I asked him about the UAW strike. 26:09.166 --> 26:10.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Like, and then, basically, the question was like, 26:10.733 --> 26:15.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is it fair that the head of GM makes 362 times more 26:16.833 --> 26:18.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than what her average employee makes? 26:18.666 --> 26:21.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, he gave kind of an answer like, 26:21.133 --> 26:23.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You know, it's up to the shareholders 26:23.166 --> 26:25.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and they can pressure people." 26:25.100 --> 26:27.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - 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