1 00:00:01,333 --> 00:00:02,266 - [Narrator] Support for "Overheard With Evan Smith" 2 00:00:02,266 --> 00:00:03,500 comes from HillCo Partners, 3 00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:05,666 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 4 00:00:05,666 --> 00:00:08,833 Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, 5 00:00:08,833 --> 00:00:11,466 and the Eller Group specializing in crisis management, 6 00:00:11,466 --> 00:00:13,800 litigation and public affairs communication. 7 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,600 Ellergroup.com. 8 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,866 - I'm Evan Smith. 9 00:00:16,866 --> 00:00:20,066 She's a senior contributing editor at MSNBC, 10 00:00:20,066 --> 00:00:22,533 a former Washington Post opinion columnist, 11 00:00:22,533 --> 00:00:26,233 and the former co-host of NPR's "All Things Considered." 12 00:00:26,233 --> 00:00:28,866 Her most recent book, "Our Hidden Conversations: 13 00:00:28,866 --> 00:00:32,400 "What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity," 14 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,533 is a New York Times bestseller. 15 00:00:34,533 --> 00:00:36,333 She's Michele Norris. 16 00:00:36,333 --> 00:00:37,366 This is "Overheard." 17 00:00:37,366 --> 00:00:38,700 (lively music) 18 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:41,166 A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 19 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:42,466 (audience applauding) 20 00:00:42,466 --> 00:00:43,666 You've really turned the conversation around 21 00:00:43,666 --> 00:00:45,633 about what leadership should be about. 22 00:00:45,633 --> 00:00:47,000 Are we blowing this? 23 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,733 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 24 00:00:48,733 --> 00:00:50,766 by giving in to the attention junkie? 25 00:00:50,766 --> 00:00:53,133 As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 26 00:00:53,133 --> 00:00:55,000 to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 27 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,033 - Two. 28 00:00:56,033 --> 00:00:57,366 This is "Overheard." 29 00:00:57,366 --> 00:01:01,833 (audience applauding) (audience cheering) 30 00:01:02,666 --> 00:01:03,500 - Michele Norris, welcome. 31 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:04,433 It's good to see you. 32 00:01:04,433 --> 00:01:05,700 - Evan, it's so good to be here. 33 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:07,033 We've been trying to do this for a while. 34 00:01:07,033 --> 00:01:08,600 - We have been. Well, finally it worked out. 35 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,600 And never at a more important time than right now, right? 36 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:11,833 - Well, the old folks say 37 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:13,000 "When it's right, it's right." 38 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:13,900 - It's right. 39 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:15,633 And it's the rightest time 40 00:01:15,633 --> 00:01:18,166 to be talking about the subject of this terrific book. 41 00:01:18,166 --> 00:01:19,433 Congratulations on it. - Thank you. 42 00:01:19,433 --> 00:01:20,400 - And your success with it. 43 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,700 "Our Hidden Conversations. 44 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:24,400 This goes back to The Race Card Project. 45 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,566 I mentioned to you backstage, 46 00:01:25,566 --> 00:01:27,833 I can't believe it's been 14 years 47 00:01:27,833 --> 00:01:31,700 since The Race Card Project launched, 48 00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:33,233 and it's been extraordinary. 49 00:01:33,233 --> 00:01:35,733 And, of course, it produced the material for this book. 50 00:01:35,733 --> 00:01:38,266 But to talk about it, remind people, if they don't know, 51 00:01:38,266 --> 00:01:40,166 tell them about the origins of this. 52 00:01:40,166 --> 00:01:42,033 - First of all, just thank you so much for having me here. 53 00:01:42,033 --> 00:01:43,600 - Sure. 54 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,666 - It's great to be... Austin's one of my favorite cities. 55 00:01:44,666 --> 00:01:45,633 - [Evan] Good. 56 00:01:45,633 --> 00:01:46,900 - So I always look forward to... 57 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:48,100 I'm gonna see if I can get out of town 58 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:49,233 without buying a pair of cowboy boots. 59 00:01:49,233 --> 00:01:50,533 (audience chuckling) 60 00:01:50,533 --> 00:01:52,300 - It happens. - It does happen. 61 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:53,666 - Yeah. 62 00:01:53,666 --> 00:01:54,566 - I've been to Allens more than a few times. 63 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:57,033 This started with postcards. 64 00:01:57,033 --> 00:01:58,033 - [Evan] Yeah. 65 00:01:58,033 --> 00:02:00,366 - I wrote a book 14 years ago 66 00:02:00,366 --> 00:02:03,333 called "The Grace of Silence," 67 00:02:03,333 --> 00:02:06,566 and it was about my family's complex racial legacy. 68 00:02:07,633 --> 00:02:09,233 I originally was planning to write a book 69 00:02:09,233 --> 00:02:11,400 about what Americans talk and think about race at that time. 70 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,700 But in the run up to, 71 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:15,766 and then after the election to Barack Obama, 72 00:02:15,766 --> 00:02:19,133 the older people in my family, older African Americans, 73 00:02:19,133 --> 00:02:21,266 started shedding stories. 74 00:02:21,266 --> 00:02:24,366 And I realized I had an interesting story tell in my family. 75 00:02:24,366 --> 00:02:26,900 And when I went out in the world, I was on a sabbatical, 76 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:31,500 I was on a 35-city book tour, on sabbatical from NPR. 77 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:34,466 And I knew I was gonna be going out into the world talking 78 00:02:34,466 --> 00:02:35,866 about race because my book 79 00:02:35,866 --> 00:02:38,533 was about my family's very complex racial legacy. 80 00:02:38,533 --> 00:02:41,100 And Evan, I was concerned 81 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:43,000 because I had been conditioned to think 82 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,233 that no one wanted to talk about race. 83 00:02:45,233 --> 00:02:47,700 So I thought, "What can I do to engage people?" 84 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:49,500 Because it was a chance for me to get out of the studio 85 00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:50,733 and be out in the world. 86 00:02:50,733 --> 00:02:51,666 I actually wanted to talk to people 87 00:02:51,666 --> 00:02:53,000 while I was on book tour. 88 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,333 So I wanted a vehicle to create conversation. 89 00:02:55,333 --> 00:02:56,933 And that's where the postcards came in. 90 00:02:56,933 --> 00:02:58,233 - Yeah. 91 00:02:58,233 --> 00:03:00,800 - I went and created postcards and they said, 92 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,333 "Race. Your thoughts. 93 00:03:02,333 --> 00:03:03,366 Please send." 94 00:03:03,366 --> 00:03:04,300 - [Evan] Right. 95 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:06,200 - And I printed 200 of them 96 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,566 at a local Kinko's in Washington, D.C. 97 00:03:09,566 --> 00:03:10,400 - Right. 98 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:11,733 - And distributed them. 99 00:03:11,733 --> 00:03:13,600 And I didn't know what would come back to me. 100 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,933 - Well, in fact, I think the hack here, 101 00:03:14,933 --> 00:03:17,466 the really interesting twist is it was race. 102 00:03:18,666 --> 00:03:20,300 Six words. - Six words. 103 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:21,233 - Right? - Yes. 104 00:03:21,233 --> 00:03:22,200 I left out that important piece. 105 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,300 - Right, race. Your thoughts. 106 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:25,033 Six words, please send. 107 00:03:25,033 --> 00:03:26,700 So you limited people to six words. 108 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:30,266 And how extraordinary to see the response, 109 00:03:30,266 --> 00:03:31,833 and how creative people were, 110 00:03:31,833 --> 00:03:34,400 and how meaningful the responses were limited 111 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,000 to just six words. 112 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:36,833 - Yeah. - Right. Yeah. 113 00:03:36,833 --> 00:03:38,233 - Yeah, and I thought 114 00:03:38,233 --> 00:03:39,600 because it's postcard, you didn't have much time. 115 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,200 And also, I figured if I asked for a sentence... 116 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,466 - [Evan] Yeah. 117 00:03:45,466 --> 00:03:46,666 - People would give me a whole paragraph 118 00:03:46,666 --> 00:03:48,066 and say it was a sentence. 119 00:03:48,066 --> 00:03:49,666 And if I asked for a paragraph, oh boy, that's too much. 120 00:03:49,666 --> 00:03:50,766 I don't wanna do that. 121 00:03:50,766 --> 00:03:52,566 So six words just seemed to work. 122 00:03:52,566 --> 00:03:56,300 And of the 200 cards we printed, about 30% came back. 123 00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:57,900 And then I was off to the races, 124 00:03:57,900 --> 00:03:59,233 and I got my publisher to print cards. 125 00:03:59,233 --> 00:04:00,733 And everywhere I went, 126 00:04:00,733 --> 00:04:02,300 I was leaving these postcards all over the place. 127 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:06,033 And when they started to come back, I realized, 128 00:04:06,033 --> 00:04:07,633 "Wait a minute. 129 00:04:07,633 --> 00:04:10,666 Maybe people actually do wanna have this conversation." 130 00:04:10,666 --> 00:04:12,166 You would be surprised. 131 00:04:12,166 --> 00:04:14,900 You'd be surprised at what people can pack into six words. 132 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,966 White not allowed to be proud. 133 00:04:19,566 --> 00:04:22,000 Only Asian when it's... 134 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,300 I'm only Asian when it's convenient. 135 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:29,100 Reason I ended a sweet relationship. 136 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,033 She called me Johnny Blue Eyes. 137 00:04:35,166 --> 00:04:36,866 You said dirt, so I scrubbed. 138 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:39,800 Really deep sentence. 139 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,400 Yeah, I mean, amazing because you might not know 140 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,066 or you might not think on the front end of this 141 00:04:45,066 --> 00:04:46,433 that people would be as thoughtful. 142 00:04:46,433 --> 00:04:48,000 - Yeah. - Right? 143 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,500 But people really rose to the challenge here, didn't they? 144 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:50,766 - They did. 145 00:04:50,766 --> 00:04:52,700 - You've gotten back more than half a million 146 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:54,033 of these cards over time? 147 00:04:54,033 --> 00:04:55,866 - Well, when we published the book, 148 00:04:55,866 --> 00:04:57,333 we were at a half a million, 149 00:04:57,333 --> 00:04:59,700 and because of the publicity around the book, 150 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:01,400 and frankly, the times we're living in. 151 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:02,366 - [Evan] Yeah. 152 00:05:02,366 --> 00:05:04,600 - We're well over 700,000 now. 153 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,266 And they come from all 50 states. 154 00:05:07,266 --> 00:05:08,766 We have submissions that have come in 155 00:05:08,766 --> 00:05:10,766 from more than 100 countries. 156 00:05:10,766 --> 00:05:12,033 - Amazing. 157 00:05:12,033 --> 00:05:14,266 - And I often don't know how people find us, 158 00:05:14,266 --> 00:05:16,233 particularly overseas. 159 00:05:16,233 --> 00:05:17,566 - Yeah. 160 00:05:17,566 --> 00:05:18,833 - And they're writing sometimes about race, 161 00:05:18,833 --> 00:05:20,233 and their thoughts about race in America. 162 00:05:20,233 --> 00:05:21,800 And frankly, a lot of people are writing in, 163 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,866 and they're looking at America like, "Y'all okay right now? 164 00:05:23,866 --> 00:05:25,033 (audience chuckling) You know? 165 00:05:25,033 --> 00:05:26,366 - Yeah. - What's going on over there? 166 00:05:26,366 --> 00:05:27,300 - Right. 167 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:29,033 - But sometimes they're writing 168 00:05:29,033 --> 00:05:30,433 through their own identity frame, 169 00:05:30,433 --> 00:05:35,366 and race is not the word that's used around the world 170 00:05:35,366 --> 00:05:37,133 but they will talk about identity 171 00:05:37,133 --> 00:05:39,000 through their own frame, and whatever it means. 172 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,666 And people divide themselves all over the place 173 00:05:41,666 --> 00:05:46,266 for all kinds of reasons: religion, class, geography. 174 00:05:46,266 --> 00:05:49,500 And so people write about their experiences. 175 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:51,433 And I talk about race and identity. 176 00:05:51,433 --> 00:05:54,000 When I first did this, I was focusing mainly on race. 177 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:54,933 - Yeah. 178 00:05:54,933 --> 00:05:56,100 - I started talking about race, 179 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:57,633 and identity for a couple reasons 180 00:05:57,633 --> 00:06:02,600 because part of it was trying to widen the aperture 181 00:06:04,066 --> 00:06:08,233 because I realized when you talk about race in America, 182 00:06:08,233 --> 00:06:12,166 there is a presumption that is a conversation about people 183 00:06:12,166 --> 00:06:13,733 of color, and usually Black Americans. 184 00:06:13,733 --> 00:06:15,100 - Right. 185 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:17,266 - So that's a conversation about those people. 186 00:06:17,266 --> 00:06:19,800 When I started to talk about identity, 187 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,966 we just saw a wider pool of people participate 188 00:06:22,966 --> 00:06:24,700 because everybody has an identity. 189 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:26,833 - Well, the conversation has also changed. 190 00:06:28,066 --> 00:06:30,133 This whole idea of the othering of America 191 00:06:30,133 --> 00:06:32,933 has also really shifted from being a conversation 192 00:06:32,933 --> 00:06:35,000 about race to being conversation about a lot more. 193 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,466 - Right. 194 00:06:36,466 --> 00:06:37,866 - Right, so it's a natural evolution of the project. 195 00:06:37,866 --> 00:06:39,900 - And there's someone who is... 196 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:41,466 We get cards from people 197 00:06:41,466 --> 00:06:43,200 who say their identity frame is they were in the military. 198 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,366 It doesn't matter what color they are 199 00:06:44,366 --> 00:06:45,300 when they come back and reenter. 200 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:46,733 - That's how they define it. 201 00:06:46,733 --> 00:06:48,300 - They realize that they're in a different cohort 202 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:49,933 just because they're military service. 203 00:06:49,933 --> 00:06:51,266 - What's interesting to me as I think about this, 204 00:06:51,266 --> 00:06:52,566 a couple of things. 205 00:06:52,566 --> 00:06:55,266 First of all, that for people, for some people, 206 00:06:55,266 --> 00:06:56,566 let's say for some people, 207 00:06:58,066 --> 00:07:01,166 the conversation around race and identity is a home game. 208 00:07:01,166 --> 00:07:03,433 And for some people, it's an away game. 209 00:07:03,433 --> 00:07:05,133 - That's a really interesting way to put it. 210 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:07,066 I've always thought for some people, they're on the field, 211 00:07:07,066 --> 00:07:08,566 and other people are spectators. 212 00:07:08,566 --> 00:07:11,133 - We're in a similar space. 213 00:07:11,133 --> 00:07:13,033 For some people, this is a conversation 214 00:07:13,033 --> 00:07:15,566 that they come to willingly, naturally, comfortably. 215 00:07:15,566 --> 00:07:18,233 For some people, it's really the opposite of that. 216 00:07:18,233 --> 00:07:21,300 And they feel put upon to be put in a situation 217 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:22,833 where they have to have an honest conversation. 218 00:07:22,833 --> 00:07:24,733 - And I think that that's why this worked 219 00:07:24,733 --> 00:07:26,400 because it started with postcards, 220 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,066 and then the submissions were so interesting that we wanted 221 00:07:30,066 --> 00:07:31,166 to give them back to people. 222 00:07:31,166 --> 00:07:32,833 So I created a website 223 00:07:32,833 --> 00:07:35,900 and started to collect submissions digitally. 224 00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:38,433 And then we added on the form, "Anything else?" 225 00:07:38,433 --> 00:07:39,900 So you could explain where your six words come from. 226 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:42,066 - Made it as easy as possible. 227 00:07:42,066 --> 00:07:43,366 - But also, it gave people the chance 228 00:07:43,366 --> 00:07:44,766 to explain why they chose their six words. 229 00:07:44,766 --> 00:07:46,066 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. 230 00:07:46,066 --> 00:07:47,300 - And that's when things got really interesting 231 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:48,200 and people started giving us back stories. 232 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,700 - Well, in fact, the book, 233 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:51,200 so just people are aware if they've not already bought 234 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:52,700 or read this book, 235 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:55,433 this book is kind of like an extension of this project. 236 00:07:55,433 --> 00:07:59,633 And it's sort of a meditation on the what, and the why, 237 00:07:59,633 --> 00:08:02,466 and the what's behind, in a lot of cases, 238 00:08:02,466 --> 00:08:04,066 the stories that you received. 239 00:08:04,066 --> 00:08:06,000 So the other point that occurs to me, Michele 240 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,966 is that the world is ugly and cruel. 241 00:08:08,966 --> 00:08:10,933 The cruelty is the point 242 00:08:10,933 --> 00:08:11,866 - In some cases. 243 00:08:11,866 --> 00:08:13,366 - These days, in some cases. 244 00:08:13,366 --> 00:08:16,966 And that opening yourself up to collecting these kinds 245 00:08:16,966 --> 00:08:21,033 of responses to your prompt, I suspect that a bunch 246 00:08:21,033 --> 00:08:23,933 of really bad people sent really bad things. 247 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:25,433 I'm just wondering what percentage 248 00:08:25,433 --> 00:08:27,766 of what you received was stuff that you threw out 249 00:08:27,766 --> 00:08:30,100 because it was people seeking to be part 250 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:31,500 of the problem rather than part the solution. 251 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:33,733 - We don't throw it out. We just move it over there. 252 00:08:33,733 --> 00:08:35,666 - Well, okay, so my words, not your words, 253 00:08:35,666 --> 00:08:37,233 but yes, moving it out. 254 00:08:37,233 --> 00:08:39,000 - If you go to the website. - Yeah. 255 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,600 - And I hope that you do, and if you buy the book, 256 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,666 and I really hope you do that, 257 00:08:41,666 --> 00:08:44,700 (audience chuckling) 258 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,366 I can guarantee you, you will be confronted with someone 259 00:08:47,366 --> 00:08:49,200 that will make you uncomfortable. 260 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:50,733 - Yeah. 261 00:08:50,733 --> 00:08:52,000 - You will see something in this that you'll recognize. 262 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,533 You will see something in this 263 00:08:53,533 --> 00:08:55,633 that will make you nod your head, "Oh yeah, I recognize it." 264 00:08:55,633 --> 00:08:57,100 But you will also be confronted with something 265 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:58,366 that is foreign to you, 266 00:08:58,366 --> 00:09:00,366 and something that might make you wanna spit 267 00:09:00,366 --> 00:09:03,266 because we're holding a mirror up to society about race. 268 00:09:03,266 --> 00:09:05,466 And if you're holding a mirror up to society about race, 269 00:09:05,466 --> 00:09:07,700 frankly, you shouldn't like everything you see. 270 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:09,200 - Yeah. 271 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,233 - And so we do get a number of submissions from people 272 00:09:11,233 --> 00:09:13,266 who I don't agree with. 273 00:09:13,266 --> 00:09:15,133 Sometimes they're saying ugly things. 274 00:09:15,133 --> 00:09:16,300 - Right. 275 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:17,266 - Sometimes they're saying things 276 00:09:17,266 --> 00:09:18,400 that are not necessarily ugly, 277 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,800 but you might think are in politics. 278 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,333 So someone says, "White privilege, earned it, enjoy it." 279 00:09:24,533 --> 00:09:25,866 - Yeah. - That's his point of view. 280 00:09:25,866 --> 00:09:27,166 - Yeah. 281 00:09:27,166 --> 00:09:28,800 - And he explains, he's in the book actually. 282 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,100 - Yeah. 283 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:33,866 - He explains that, in his point of view, 284 00:09:33,866 --> 00:09:35,166 men, and particularly white men, 285 00:09:35,166 --> 00:09:37,866 have made the most important contributions 286 00:09:37,866 --> 00:09:39,400 to American life and letters. 287 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,766 - [Evan] Yep. 288 00:09:40,766 --> 00:09:43,400 - And so white people, and white men in particular, 289 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,766 are owed a debt of gratitude and not mockery. 290 00:09:47,233 --> 00:09:49,200 We include that, even though I know that a lot of people, 291 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,500 "Well, why does he get a seat at the table?" 292 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:53,300 - Well, we'll come to this in a second, 293 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:54,900 but you could say that's the story 294 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,433 of the election we just had. 295 00:09:56,433 --> 00:09:57,900 - It's the story of America. 296 00:09:57,900 --> 00:09:59,300 - Right. 297 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:01,833 - And I could also say that I don't agree with him. 298 00:10:01,833 --> 00:10:03,066 - Right. 299 00:10:03,066 --> 00:10:04,566 - We would have a yeasty conversation. 300 00:10:04,566 --> 00:10:05,933 - But it's a valuable point of view to include, right? 301 00:10:05,933 --> 00:10:07,533 - Very valuable. 302 00:10:07,533 --> 00:10:08,600 - If you wanna understand the fullness of this conversation. 303 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:09,800 - But I also understand 304 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,333 how he could come to that conclusion 305 00:10:11,333 --> 00:10:13,566 'cause he was, he was educated in America, and so was I. 306 00:10:13,566 --> 00:10:14,400 - [Evan] Right. 307 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,100 - And so I am in my 60s. 308 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:18,400 - [Evan] Yeah. 309 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,766 - There are a lot of things I have learned, 310 00:10:19,766 --> 00:10:21,300 and I had a very good education growing up 311 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:22,366 in Minneapolis, Minnesota, 312 00:10:22,366 --> 00:10:26,233 and went to land grant schools, 313 00:10:26,233 --> 00:10:29,466 and spent 10 years considering all things 314 00:10:29,466 --> 00:10:30,833 before 4 o'clock every day. 315 00:10:33,066 --> 00:10:34,833 I know a lot about America, 316 00:10:34,833 --> 00:10:38,233 but a lot of it I learned after I left my formal education 317 00:10:38,233 --> 00:10:41,933 because my formal education taught me that, 318 00:10:43,266 --> 00:10:45,433 as he said, most of the main contributors to life 319 00:10:45,433 --> 00:10:47,633 and letters in America were men, 320 00:10:47,633 --> 00:10:48,900 and usually white men. 321 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,200 Women were often not part of the story. 322 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,333 Black people were not part of the story. 323 00:10:51,333 --> 00:10:53,633 Latinos, Asians, Indigenous people 324 00:10:53,633 --> 00:10:54,566 were not part of the story. 325 00:10:54,566 --> 00:10:56,066 So I don't agree with him, 326 00:10:57,233 --> 00:10:58,500 but I kind of understand 327 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:00,100 how we could come to that conclusion. 328 00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:01,566 - Well, again, if you wanna understand America today, 329 00:11:01,566 --> 00:11:03,333 that's got to be a point of view you consider. 330 00:11:03,333 --> 00:11:04,500 In some ways, what I was asking about, 331 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:05,800 and what I was thinking about, 332 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,400 although I'm glad that you took us to that, 333 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,566 was what's happened over the last, 334 00:11:10,566 --> 00:11:12,500 pick a timeframe, 10 years, 335 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:15,833 is that there's a permission structure in place 336 00:11:15,833 --> 00:11:19,866 to say all the things that the royal you, 337 00:11:19,866 --> 00:11:22,966 not you and me, that you think, 338 00:11:24,433 --> 00:11:26,966 and say them out loud and say them without consequences. 339 00:11:26,966 --> 00:11:31,100 And that wasn't necessarily always the case before. 340 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:32,366 - Well, it wasn't in recent-- 341 00:11:32,366 --> 00:11:33,666 - But it feels like it's more the case now. 342 00:11:33,666 --> 00:11:36,300 - In recent times, we had entered a space 343 00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:38,300 where there was some mediation. 344 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:39,800 - [Evan] Right. 345 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,433 - Like this was permissive and this wasn't permissive. 346 00:11:41,433 --> 00:11:42,866 And you might not wanna say that 347 00:11:42,866 --> 00:11:44,800 because there may be some consequence about it. 348 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,566 - The wrapper's off now, right. 349 00:11:46,566 --> 00:11:49,100 - And now there is a different kind of permission structure, 350 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:51,566 but it's interesting in the stories that we collect, 351 00:11:51,566 --> 00:11:53,000 sometimes people will pull up, 352 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,666 they'll send us a story. 353 00:11:54,666 --> 00:11:56,433 "Oh, I know you're never gonna print that." 354 00:11:56,433 --> 00:11:57,400 - [Evan] Right. 355 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,866 - And then we do, we include it 356 00:11:58,866 --> 00:12:01,100 because again, we're holding a mirror up to society. 357 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:02,566 It's a mirror and a window. 358 00:12:02,566 --> 00:12:03,533 - [Evan] Yeah. 359 00:12:03,533 --> 00:12:04,933 - You get to see other people, 360 00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:06,333 you get to peer over the fence, and see other people 361 00:12:06,333 --> 00:12:08,200 but you also see America reflected back to you. 362 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:09,533 - And you see yourself, 363 00:12:09,533 --> 00:12:10,900 whether you recognize yourself in it or not. 364 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:12,133 - Right, or your community. 365 00:12:12,133 --> 00:12:14,700 And then when we include those stories, 366 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:18,100 then they're like, "Oh, I get a seat at the table too." 367 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:22,633 Sometimes they are engaged in a different way 368 00:12:22,633 --> 00:12:23,900 because they thought 369 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:24,933 that they were gonna be barked out of the room. 370 00:12:24,933 --> 00:12:26,100 - Yeah. 371 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,233 - And that's not necessarily the case. 372 00:12:28,233 --> 00:12:30,766 And that doesn't all often happen in other places. 373 00:12:30,766 --> 00:12:33,800 But when you talk about this permission structure, 374 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,466 what we're seeing right now 375 00:12:37,466 --> 00:12:41,266 is a lot of things happening all at once. 376 00:12:41,266 --> 00:12:44,133 So on one hand, America is steaming 377 00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:48,833 toward majority minority status. 378 00:12:48,833 --> 00:12:51,400 It has arrived ahead of schedule in some places, 379 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:52,666 lots of places in Texas. 380 00:12:52,666 --> 00:12:54,966 - Right, well, we're now more than 60% 381 00:12:54,966 --> 00:12:57,033 of the residents of Texas are people of color. 382 00:12:57,033 --> 00:12:59,200 We'll never go back down below 60%. 383 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:00,566 - It's already happened. The future has arrived. 384 00:13:00,566 --> 00:13:02,833 - The leading indicator of other places. 385 00:13:02,833 --> 00:13:05,133 - And if you're under 25, under 18, 386 00:13:05,133 --> 00:13:06,300 it's already happened 387 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:07,666 because of birth rates in this country. 388 00:13:07,666 --> 00:13:08,500 So that's happening. 389 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:09,733 - [Evan] Yeah. 390 00:13:09,733 --> 00:13:11,000 - At the same time, you've got people 391 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,733 who are pushing against diversity, equity, 392 00:13:13,733 --> 00:13:16,466 inclusion programs, that are trying to prevent us 393 00:13:16,466 --> 00:13:17,700 from learning about our history. 394 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:19,600 So that's happening at the same time. 395 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,866 You've got people who are invested in our divisions, 396 00:13:22,866 --> 00:13:25,033 deeply invested in our divisions. 397 00:13:25,033 --> 00:13:26,933 - Polarization is a business model. 398 00:13:26,933 --> 00:13:28,566 - And they treat it as a business model. 399 00:13:28,566 --> 00:13:31,333 So they do focus groups to figure out what is the best way 400 00:13:31,333 --> 00:13:33,900 that we can keep people polarized, 401 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:35,266 usually because it benefits them 402 00:13:35,266 --> 00:13:36,633 but they actually do focus groups. 403 00:13:36,633 --> 00:13:38,100 So the messaging in Texas is different than it is 404 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:39,933 in Montana, is different than it is in Michigan, 405 00:13:39,933 --> 00:13:42,600 and different still than it is in Louisiana. 406 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,400 They're figuring out how to message 407 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,233 to different people to keep them apart. 408 00:13:46,233 --> 00:13:47,733 But Evan, I know this also 409 00:13:47,733 --> 00:13:49,000 because of the work that we do; 410 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,800 we used this crazy project, 411 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,633 which started on the third floor of my house... 412 00:13:52,633 --> 00:13:54,200 - Yep. 413 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,366 - Has been used in hundreds of schools around the country. 414 00:13:56,366 --> 00:13:59,566 It has been used in businesses, 415 00:13:59,566 --> 00:14:02,600 it has been used in the Justice Department and the military. 416 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,200 It is usually used by people who want to use the archive, 417 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,300 and these stories as a way to create a bridge 418 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:11,700 so people can have a difficult conversation, 419 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:13,333 and reach outside their own realm, 420 00:14:13,333 --> 00:14:14,733 and understand someone else, 421 00:14:14,733 --> 00:14:18,200 and maybe talk to and listen across difference. 422 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:19,700 And so because of that, 423 00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,233 I know that while all these other things are going on, 424 00:14:21,233 --> 00:14:25,700 as invested as people are in divisions, there are also a lot 425 00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:27,933 of people who deal with the consequences of that. 426 00:14:27,933 --> 00:14:28,866 - Yeah. 427 00:14:28,866 --> 00:14:32,400 - So someone runs a factory 428 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,700 in a Southern state, and we have been in some 429 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:36,966 of the reddest counties, 430 00:14:36,966 --> 00:14:40,100 and some of the reddest states during this work. 431 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:43,000 That foreman who runs that company, 432 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,100 the owner who runs that company, 433 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:48,133 regardless of their politics, what they have to deal with 434 00:14:48,133 --> 00:14:49,866 is the impacts on the productivity 435 00:14:49,866 --> 00:14:51,633 inside those four walls. 436 00:14:51,633 --> 00:14:53,633 So when you are entering that space, 437 00:14:53,633 --> 00:14:55,933 and people are coming to work in cars, 438 00:14:55,933 --> 00:14:59,600 and pickup trucks, and EVs, 439 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,200 and they have different anthems on the bumper sticker, 440 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,900 some of them lean right, some of them lean left, 441 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:09,733 some of them are wherever, 442 00:15:09,733 --> 00:15:13,766 all of that political discourse out there suddenly comes 443 00:15:13,766 --> 00:15:15,033 into the workspace, 444 00:15:15,033 --> 00:15:17,000 whether it's a factory, whether it's a hospital, 445 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,233 whether it's a campus, 446 00:15:18,233 --> 00:15:22,266 and that starts to affect the culture. 447 00:15:22,266 --> 00:15:23,966 And it's not just the sort of, 448 00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:25,866 I don't like the word woke, 449 00:15:25,866 --> 00:15:28,566 so whatever you wanna use about whether people feel crunchy 450 00:15:28,566 --> 00:15:31,500 or whether they can say, it affects the actual work culture 451 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:33,200 that people aren't speaking to each other. 452 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,533 It affects the trust between people. 453 00:15:35,533 --> 00:15:38,600 And so despite the divisions, 454 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:39,833 and I know that there are a lot of people 455 00:15:39,833 --> 00:15:41,500 who are trying to figure out, 456 00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:44,600 "I run a hospital and I have to make sure that the doctors 457 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:45,866 and the nurses talk to each other. 458 00:15:45,866 --> 00:15:47,400 And I have to make sure that then the people 459 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,500 who clean the building"-- 460 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:49,866 - So you've given them a toolkit. 461 00:15:49,866 --> 00:15:51,266 - In some cases. 462 00:15:51,266 --> 00:15:54,533 - Effectively this is about the success of entities 463 00:15:54,533 --> 00:15:56,733 that don't necessarily think they are 464 00:15:56,733 --> 00:15:59,300 about hard conversations about race. 465 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:00,833 - What it allows people to do, 466 00:16:00,833 --> 00:16:02,200 and we are not a panacea, 467 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,100 and I'm not gonna solve your problem, 468 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:06,500 but we are diagnostic in that we go into spaces, 469 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:08,166 and we allow people to have a conversation 470 00:16:08,166 --> 00:16:09,833 using an anthropological tool. 471 00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:12,466 It's easier to get people to talk 472 00:16:12,466 --> 00:16:14,400 about their own environment 473 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,566 or even themselves if they can talk 474 00:16:15,566 --> 00:16:16,833 about somebody else first. 475 00:16:16,833 --> 00:16:18,133 - Yeah. Yeah. 476 00:16:18,133 --> 00:16:21,300 - And Zora Neale Hurston was an anthropologist 477 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:22,500 and she was successful 478 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:23,833 because she would go town to town, 479 00:16:23,833 --> 00:16:25,733 and she would take the stories from one town, 480 00:16:25,733 --> 00:16:27,533 and tell them to the next town, 481 00:16:27,533 --> 00:16:29,233 and then that town would open up about their stories. 482 00:16:29,233 --> 00:16:30,166 - Yeah. It's a catalyst, isn't it? 483 00:16:30,166 --> 00:16:31,133 - And then it's a catalyst. 484 00:16:31,133 --> 00:16:32,666 It's what anthropologists do. 485 00:16:32,666 --> 00:16:34,100 - Indeed. 486 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,266 - And so they talk about these stories in the archive, 487 00:16:36,266 --> 00:16:37,866 and it renders the pot in a certain way 488 00:16:37,866 --> 00:16:40,033 that then people can start to talk to each other, 489 00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:42,400 not necessarily to try to agree with each other, 490 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,600 but if you can get people to share stories, 491 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,566 if you can get to see someone. 492 00:16:46,566 --> 00:16:48,600 "I don't like your politics. 493 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,000 I don't like the way you dress. 494 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,866 Why does your hair have to be purple?" 495 00:16:53,866 --> 00:16:55,966 - Yeah. - All of this. 496 00:16:55,966 --> 00:16:58,133 And yet you start to hear someone's story. 497 00:16:58,133 --> 00:17:00,400 And there may be some kernel of something 498 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,800 that you recognize, or not, 499 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,266 but you see them as a person. 500 00:17:04,266 --> 00:17:05,700 It's what Michelle Obama says, 501 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,100 that it's hard to hate up close. 502 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:11,600 And narrative, and listening to someone, 503 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,433 and listening even across difference 504 00:17:13,433 --> 00:17:17,100 can sometimes create in a work environment, 505 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:20,700 even in a family what we call a trust dividend. 506 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,533 - So let me ask you about the moment we're in 507 00:17:22,533 --> 00:17:23,966 as it relates to this. 508 00:17:23,966 --> 00:17:27,266 So I'll turn your concept or your prompt on you. 509 00:17:28,433 --> 00:17:29,566 The election, 510 00:17:30,933 --> 00:17:32,766 six words, your thoughts. 511 00:17:32,766 --> 00:17:35,200 (audience chuckling) (audience gasping) 512 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,866 - Well, I go back to the six words 513 00:17:36,866 --> 00:17:38,833 that I end the book on. 514 00:17:38,833 --> 00:17:40,233 Still more work to be done. 515 00:17:40,233 --> 00:17:41,500 - [Evan] Yeah. 516 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,733 - We have a lot of work to do right now. 517 00:17:43,733 --> 00:17:45,600 There are a few other things I could have said. 518 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:46,866 (audience chuckling) 519 00:17:46,866 --> 00:17:49,766 - Because you recognize, of course you recognize 520 00:17:49,766 --> 00:17:52,200 that as much as people wanna make this election 521 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,766 about one thing or another thing 522 00:17:53,766 --> 00:17:56,800 or everything or nothing, the outcome, 523 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,200 and what preceded the outcome was about race in America. 524 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,300 Full stop. 525 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,266 There was no way for it not to be. 526 00:18:04,266 --> 00:18:06,400 - I'm not saying it was only about race in America. 527 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:07,700 - No, no, no, but definitely a portion of it was about that. 528 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:10,366 - But definitely, it was an onion in the stew. 529 00:18:10,366 --> 00:18:12,533 Most definitely. - [Evan] Right. 530 00:18:12,533 --> 00:18:14,033 - And we haven't, 531 00:18:14,033 --> 00:18:18,133 if you look at all the first thought postmortems, 532 00:18:18,133 --> 00:18:19,500 they've talked about the price of eggs, 533 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:21,300 and the price of bacon, and the price of housing, 534 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:22,600 and who communicated. 535 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,533 And it seemed like it was... 536 00:18:23,533 --> 00:18:24,933 At one point I was thinking, 537 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,766 "Are we are gonna talk about race or misogyny 538 00:18:28,766 --> 00:18:31,300 because that has to be a part of this." 539 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:33,300 And you're careful about this 540 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,100 'cause I'm not saying that people who voted 541 00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:36,566 for Donald Trump are racist. 542 00:18:36,566 --> 00:18:37,866 - Right. 543 00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:39,566 - That's not, I wanna be very clear about that. 544 00:18:41,166 --> 00:18:44,433 But he was someone who repeatedly made racist statements, 545 00:18:44,433 --> 00:18:47,766 so you're voting for someone who had done things 546 00:18:47,766 --> 00:18:51,066 that were racist or was embraced in some ways by people 547 00:18:51,066 --> 00:18:53,333 who are unapologetically-- 548 00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:54,566 - It's kind of extraordinary to me. 549 00:18:54,566 --> 00:18:56,100 I mean, we've both been around long enough 550 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:58,733 to remember previous elections. 551 00:18:58,733 --> 00:19:02,200 This was one that was different for me 552 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,366 because it was a because election, 553 00:19:04,366 --> 00:19:06,266 and it was a despite election. 554 00:19:06,266 --> 00:19:07,633 - Yes. 555 00:19:07,633 --> 00:19:08,700 - And the ways in which it was a despite election 556 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:10,100 are exactly what you said. 557 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,033 He said all these things, but the price of eggs. 558 00:19:13,033 --> 00:19:14,733 Like, they made themselves comfortable 559 00:19:14,733 --> 00:19:17,933 with the idea of embracing that because of this other thing. 560 00:19:17,933 --> 00:19:19,466 - But there's a lot of stuff that's going on. 561 00:19:19,466 --> 00:19:22,500 And I really understand the nuances 562 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:23,900 and complexities about this, 563 00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:25,566 and that's why I'm really careful about saying, 564 00:19:25,566 --> 00:19:28,500 "It was just this or it was just that or it was just this." 565 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:29,866 If we're really honest, 566 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,466 if you look at our leadership culture in America, 567 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:39,300 at some point, if you're gonna have an honest assessment 568 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:42,133 of the election, we probably should look at the fact 569 00:19:42,133 --> 00:19:45,866 that one of the candidates was a person of color, 570 00:19:45,866 --> 00:19:47,900 and a woman, and a person of color 571 00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:49,200 who happens to be a woman. 572 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,366 There's a study that's been done, 573 00:19:50,366 --> 00:19:51,733 and I'm gonna be careful about citing it 574 00:19:51,733 --> 00:19:54,000 'cause I wanna be careful about not misquoting it, 575 00:19:56,133 --> 00:19:57,833 and I wish I had it right at my fingertips, 576 00:19:57,833 --> 00:19:59,400 but they looked at the corporate, 577 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,733 the CEO leadership culture, 578 00:20:00,733 --> 00:20:02,566 and they found that a very large percentage, 579 00:20:02,566 --> 00:20:06,233 like 20% have one of seven names or something like that. 580 00:20:06,233 --> 00:20:10,733 It's Bob and some derivative of John, 581 00:20:10,733 --> 00:20:12,100 and some derivative of James, 582 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:13,700 and some derivative of Richard. 583 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:16,266 And they usually are a certain height, 584 00:20:16,266 --> 00:20:18,666 and they go to one of 20 schools. 585 00:20:18,666 --> 00:20:20,466 And so we have a sort of sense 586 00:20:20,466 --> 00:20:21,733 of what leadership looks like, 587 00:20:21,733 --> 00:20:23,866 and there's a comfort zone in that. 588 00:20:23,866 --> 00:20:25,900 And we asked America to move out 589 00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:29,366 of that comfort zone in a really tumultuous moment, 590 00:20:29,366 --> 00:20:31,866 at a point when you had these forces 591 00:20:31,866 --> 00:20:33,633 that were really invested in our division. 592 00:20:33,633 --> 00:20:37,433 So we can't pretend that that wasn't part of this. 593 00:20:37,433 --> 00:20:39,500 - But Michele, you know that one of the conversations 594 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:40,900 that we will be having 595 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,233 is whether or not there was enough emphasis placed 596 00:20:43,233 --> 00:20:46,900 by the Harris campaign on race or gender 597 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,166 as a component of the pitch. 598 00:20:49,166 --> 00:20:51,000 And in fact, what has been said, 599 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,466 what is thought about the campaign 600 00:20:52,466 --> 00:20:54,366 was that they actually deemphasized that, 601 00:20:54,366 --> 00:20:55,933 they didn't actually. 602 00:20:55,933 --> 00:20:59,200 And, of course, I said, "How do you not recognize the nature 603 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,466 of the candidacy based on the candidate?" 604 00:21:02,466 --> 00:21:04,466 - I think in some cases the analysts 605 00:21:04,466 --> 00:21:08,566 who are making that assertion 606 00:21:08,566 --> 00:21:10,966 are sometimes outsourcing the conversation. 607 00:21:10,966 --> 00:21:12,600 Like, "She should be talking about race 608 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,233 'cause then we don't have to lead the conversation." 609 00:21:14,233 --> 00:21:15,800 - Interesting, interesting. Yeah. 610 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,533 - "If she brings it up, then I don't have to." 611 00:21:18,533 --> 00:21:21,066 So it's kind of like, "Leave it up to her." 612 00:21:21,066 --> 00:21:23,233 But Toni Morrison told us 613 00:21:23,233 --> 00:21:25,000 that race is often a distraction. 614 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,233 - [Evan] Yeah. 615 00:21:26,233 --> 00:21:27,600 - And so why is it that people of color 616 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,900 or women or someone who is outside 617 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:34,900 of the cohort norm 618 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:36,200 in terms of leadership, 619 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,433 why do they have to lead the conversation? 620 00:21:38,433 --> 00:21:40,833 When Barack Obama ran for office, everyone expected him 621 00:21:40,833 --> 00:21:43,433 to have the big conversation about race. 622 00:21:43,433 --> 00:21:44,700 And then everyone expected him 623 00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:46,000 to have a national conversation about race, 624 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,666 as if we were all gonna get together on Tuesday 625 00:21:47,666 --> 00:21:49,033 and suddenly have this conversation. 626 00:21:49,033 --> 00:21:50,200 - Well, and he was also criticized. 627 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,500 I mean, I remember at one point-- 628 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:53,266 - But we don't have the same expectation 629 00:21:53,266 --> 00:21:55,666 of white candidates, and yet we should. 630 00:21:55,666 --> 00:21:56,633 And that's one of the-- 631 00:21:56,633 --> 00:21:58,066 - Okay, that's a good thing. 632 00:21:58,066 --> 00:21:59,433 - And yet we should because if we are ever going 633 00:21:59,433 --> 00:22:02,500 to have an open, honest, productive conversation, 634 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:06,200 it cannot be by, for and about people of color. 635 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,100 White Americans need to have a seat at the table. 636 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:09,933 And I am more convinced of that than ever 637 00:22:09,933 --> 00:22:11,433 after writing this book 638 00:22:11,433 --> 00:22:13,633 because when I put the basket on the table, 639 00:22:13,633 --> 00:22:16,633 and I admit that I created this project 640 00:22:16,633 --> 00:22:18,000 based on a mistaken assumption 641 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,533 that Americans didn't wanna talk about race. 642 00:22:19,533 --> 00:22:21,000 I was wrong. They do. - Yeah, they do. 643 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,500 - I created this project on the mistaken assumption 644 00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:24,900 that if I put a basket on the table 645 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:26,866 and ask people to talk about race, that the majority 646 00:22:26,866 --> 00:22:29,066 of the people who showed up would be people of color. 647 00:22:29,066 --> 00:22:30,433 - People of color, right. 648 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:33,266 - And in the 14 years that we have been doing this, 649 00:22:33,266 --> 00:22:34,433 in the majority of the years 650 00:22:34,433 --> 00:22:35,966 that we've been collecting stories, 651 00:22:35,966 --> 00:22:37,366 the majority of the stories have come from white Americans. 652 00:22:37,366 --> 00:22:39,166 - White people. Amazing. 653 00:22:39,166 --> 00:22:43,666 - And that was a surprise. 654 00:22:43,666 --> 00:22:46,333 I mean, I write this in one of the chapters in the book. 655 00:22:46,333 --> 00:22:47,800 When I began this, I did not know 656 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,800 that I was gonna be embarking on a 14-year odyssey 657 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,466 of listening to white Americans talk about race. 658 00:22:52,466 --> 00:22:54,166 I didn't even think that was possible. 659 00:22:54,166 --> 00:22:55,133 - [Evan] Yeah. 660 00:22:55,133 --> 00:22:57,100 - And yet it told me that a lot 661 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,566 of people feel left out of the conversation. 662 00:22:59,566 --> 00:23:03,333 They feel that they don't have control in the conversation. 663 00:23:03,333 --> 00:23:05,033 They feel like America looks past them. 664 00:23:05,033 --> 00:23:07,900 They feel like if they do say anything, they're walking 665 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:11,433 through a minefield or walking on eggshells. 666 00:23:11,433 --> 00:23:14,000 And so many people showed up with so many different kinds 667 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,366 of stories that it reminded me, frankly, 668 00:23:18,366 --> 00:23:19,800 of our faults in journalism; 669 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,533 that when something happens... 670 00:23:22,533 --> 00:23:24,566 I'll give you an example. 671 00:23:24,566 --> 00:23:26,533 The Mother Emanuel tragedy. 672 00:23:27,733 --> 00:23:29,733 When Dylann Roof went into that church, 673 00:23:29,733 --> 00:23:31,266 went into Mother Emanuel, 674 00:23:31,266 --> 00:23:35,333 and took people's lives while they were worshiping, 675 00:23:35,333 --> 00:23:39,433 we had a knee-jerk reaction to call certain kinds of people. 676 00:23:39,433 --> 00:23:40,933 And they were usually ministers, 677 00:23:40,933 --> 00:23:42,300 they were sometimes activists, 678 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,066 they were almost always people of color. 679 00:23:44,066 --> 00:23:46,433 But we did not have a concomitant effort 680 00:23:46,433 --> 00:23:48,333 to understand the roots of the hatred 681 00:23:48,333 --> 00:23:49,733 that led to that action. 682 00:23:49,733 --> 00:23:52,533 We did not invite other people to the table to talk 683 00:23:52,533 --> 00:23:54,100 about how did we get here? 684 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,333 What was the syllabus of hatred that led him 685 00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:58,066 to do something like that? 686 00:23:58,066 --> 00:24:00,333 And whether we're talking about a hateful act like that, 687 00:24:00,333 --> 00:24:01,866 or just sort of the discomfort 688 00:24:01,866 --> 00:24:04,400 around the demographic changes that we're going through, 689 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,733 whether we're talking about 690 00:24:07,233 --> 00:24:08,900 just the complications in life 691 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,100 if you have married someone across the color line, 692 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,633 which so many people have. 693 00:24:12,633 --> 00:24:14,166 - Yeah. 694 00:24:14,166 --> 00:24:15,766 - Go to the mall, go to the movies, go to the grocery store. 695 00:24:15,766 --> 00:24:17,433 - Turn on the television. - Turn on the television. 696 00:24:17,433 --> 00:24:20,700 - We see biracial America now in places we never did before. 697 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:22,000 - And that is a sign of progress. 698 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,533 - It is. - It is a sign of progress. 699 00:24:23,533 --> 00:24:27,000 But also, that doesn't mean that the complications are over. 700 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,366 Sometimes that ushers in, 701 00:24:28,366 --> 00:24:30,100 and that's what I've learned from this project, 702 00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:32,800 sometimes that ushers in different kinds of conversations 703 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,100 and layers of complexity. 704 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:35,700 And we don't invite in those conversations. 705 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:38,500 So as people who drive the narrative, 706 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:40,966 we tend to stay in a certain groove. 707 00:24:40,966 --> 00:24:42,333 - [Evan] Yeah. 708 00:24:42,333 --> 00:24:45,400 - And one of the reasons that people feel left out 709 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,533 is because they actually are left out. 710 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:50,800 - And that brings us back really to the book. 711 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,866 The book was at least a way for people 712 00:24:53,866 --> 00:24:55,800 who felt left out to have their voices heard. 713 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,333 And in the end, that's such an important thing, 714 00:24:58,333 --> 00:24:59,700 and especially right now. 715 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:00,700 - Yeah, and politically 716 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:02,166 - Given everything going on. 717 00:25:02,166 --> 00:25:03,933 - And politically, I think the right understood that. 718 00:25:03,933 --> 00:25:05,200 - Yeah. 719 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,433 - That there are a lot of people who feel 720 00:25:06,433 --> 00:25:09,333 like that they're not heard right now, 721 00:25:09,333 --> 00:25:13,366 and that they are caricaturized in some way, 722 00:25:13,366 --> 00:25:15,933 they're mocked in some way. 723 00:25:16,933 --> 00:25:18,766 And they understood that, 724 00:25:18,766 --> 00:25:22,833 and they came up with a very sort of potent kind of messages 725 00:25:22,833 --> 00:25:25,566 to say, "We hear you, we understand you, 726 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,000 and we're going to make America better for you 727 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,400 by going backwards." 728 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,333 - Right, remains to be seen. Yeah. 729 00:25:34,333 --> 00:25:37,200 Michele, we could talk about this all day. It's terrific. 730 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,166 And I appreciate so much the hard work you've done 731 00:25:39,166 --> 00:25:40,833 on everybody's behalf here. 732 00:25:40,833 --> 00:25:44,100 You've made this conversation a little bit easier to have, 733 00:25:45,333 --> 00:25:46,566 and I wish you great success with the book. 734 00:25:46,566 --> 00:25:47,833 So thank you very much. - Evan, thank you. 735 00:25:47,833 --> 00:25:49,366 Good, Michele Norris. - My best to you. 736 00:25:49,366 --> 00:25:51,400 Thank you, great. All right, thank you, great, excellent. 737 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,733 (audience applauding) (lively music) 738 00:25:52,733 --> 00:25:55,433 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 739 00:25:55,433 --> 00:25:59,133 Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 740 00:25:59,133 --> 00:26:02,566 to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience 741 00:26:02,566 --> 00:26:05,666 and guests, and an archive of past episodes. 742 00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:08,333 - If you had talked to me ahead of the 2016 election, 743 00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:10,666 I actually had a pretty good indication 744 00:26:10,666 --> 00:26:12,700 that Donald Trump was going to win. 745 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:15,100 And one of the reasons, that I started 746 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:18,533 to see a lot of white men in the inbox talking about feeling 747 00:26:18,533 --> 00:26:19,766 like they were invisible, 748 00:26:20,966 --> 00:26:22,700 a lot of people talking about feeling 749 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:25,166 like they lived in an America that they didn't recognize. 750 00:26:25,166 --> 00:26:26,700 - [Narrator] Support for "Overheard With Evan Smith" 751 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:28,400 comes from HillCo Partners, 752 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,666 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 753 00:26:30,666 --> 00:26:33,833 Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, 754 00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:36,500 and the Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, 755 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:38,800 litigation and public affairs communication. 756 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,133 Ellergroup.com. 757 00:26:40,133 --> 00:26:43,233 (playful music ending) 758 00:26:43,233 --> 00:26:45,500 (no audio)