1 00:00:01,166 --> 00:00:02,300 - Thank you very much for writing the book 2 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:04,300 and I'm looking forward to reading it. 3 00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:09,300 The question is, where was Martin Luther King, 4 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:14,600 Dr. King in 1968, and can you speculate about 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,100 where he was headed in his quest for a better world? 6 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:21,900 - Yeah, and you know, it's a great question. 7 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:24,166 You know, in 1968, as we know, 8 00:00:24,166 --> 00:00:26,233 he was in Memphis for the sanitation workers strike 9 00:00:26,233 --> 00:00:27,966 where his advisors told him not to go, 10 00:00:27,966 --> 00:00:31,766 they said it was a local issue and it wasn't worth his time. 11 00:00:31,766 --> 00:00:33,000 And he was at the same time 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,966 busy planning the Poor People's Campaign, 13 00:00:34,966 --> 00:00:37,533 which was really where he wanted to go next. 14 00:00:37,533 --> 00:00:40,700 And again, advisors were saying, "Not a good idea. 15 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:42,466 Stick to voting rights, stick to the South. 16 00:00:42,466 --> 00:00:43,766 That's where we're most effective. 17 00:00:43,766 --> 00:00:45,866 We can raise a lot of money in the North 18 00:00:45,866 --> 00:00:48,166 if you just stay in the South." 19 00:00:48,166 --> 00:00:49,600 But he refused to do that. 20 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,833 He wanted to move beyond civil rights to human rights. 21 00:00:51,833 --> 00:00:54,866 He wanted to talk a lot more about income inequality, 22 00:00:54,866 --> 00:00:57,933 and just the structure of capitalism in America. 23 00:00:57,933 --> 00:01:00,066 I think he was pushing us toward a more of a, 24 00:01:00,066 --> 00:01:02,000 you know, European-style social democracy. 25 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,833 He wanted to see guaranteed wages, guaranteed jobs, 26 00:01:05,833 --> 00:01:08,466 and he was gonna camp out in Washington 27 00:01:08,466 --> 00:01:10,966 as long as it took until that happened. 28 00:01:10,966 --> 00:01:12,633 But at the same time, he was having a really hard time 29 00:01:12,633 --> 00:01:15,166 recruiting people to come to Washington 30 00:01:15,166 --> 00:01:16,566 for that Poor People's Campaign, 31 00:01:16,566 --> 00:01:18,666 so he was under a lot of stress, a lot of strain, 32 00:01:18,666 --> 00:01:22,500 and the fundraising was off for his organization, so. 33 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:25,966 You know, one of the great questions of speculation is, 34 00:01:25,966 --> 00:01:27,233 you know, what would he have done? 35 00:01:27,233 --> 00:01:28,433 Would he have continued? 36 00:01:28,433 --> 00:01:30,800 Was he too depressed to keep going on? 37 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:31,900 - Could he have continued? 38 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:33,033 - Could he have continued, right, 39 00:01:33,033 --> 00:01:35,166 because the organization was struggling. 40 00:01:35,166 --> 00:01:36,666 And you know, the civil rights movement 41 00:01:36,666 --> 00:01:40,000 was moving on in many ways, it was changing in many ways, 42 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,100 you had these more radical factions. 43 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:43,633 You also had a lot of people just starting to move 44 00:01:43,633 --> 00:01:46,233 into electoral politics more and losing interest. 45 00:01:46,233 --> 00:01:47,266 And a lot of the white supporters 46 00:01:47,266 --> 00:01:48,500 of the civil rights movement 47 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:50,700 were moving on to Vietnam protests, 48 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:53,733 so it's not clear how King would've adjusted to all of that. 49 00:01:53,733 --> 00:01:55,833 - Like so much, as we talked about, 50 00:01:55,833 --> 00:01:58,233 like so much of the myth, 51 00:01:58,233 --> 00:02:01,033 we've forgotten how challenged he was- 52 00:02:01,033 --> 00:02:02,333 - That's right. - There at the end. 53 00:02:02,333 --> 00:02:03,566 - Yeah, there's a really good documentary 54 00:02:03,566 --> 00:02:05,200 called "King in the Wilderness." 55 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,666 And those last years of his life 56 00:02:06,666 --> 00:02:08,700 really did feel like he was in the wilderness. 57 00:02:08,700 --> 00:02:09,566 - Amazing. 58 00:02:09,566 --> 00:02:10,666 Hi. 59 00:02:10,666 --> 00:02:11,600 - [Audience Member] Hello, Jonathan. 60 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:12,500 Thank you so much for the book. 61 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:13,733 It's a wonderful book, 62 00:02:13,733 --> 00:02:14,833 I read last year. - Oh, I like 63 00:02:14,833 --> 00:02:15,933 all those Post-it Notes in there. 64 00:02:15,933 --> 00:02:16,866 - [Audience Member] Yes, yes, yes. 65 00:02:16,866 --> 00:02:18,333 It's a great, great, great book. 66 00:02:18,333 --> 00:02:19,600 I read in "Variety" 67 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,566 that your book is gonna be getting adapted by, 68 00:02:23,566 --> 00:02:26,400 and Spielberg's gonna be producing the book. 69 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,933 - [Jonathan] Maybe, we're hoping, I mean- 70 00:02:27,933 --> 00:02:29,033 - [Host] Tell us about that. 71 00:02:29,033 --> 00:02:32,066 - Yeah, so Chris Rock read the book 72 00:02:32,066 --> 00:02:34,633 and decided he wanted to direct a film, 73 00:02:34,633 --> 00:02:36,766 and he asked Steven Spielberg to produce, 74 00:02:36,766 --> 00:02:39,966 and Spielberg said yes, so we are working on that. 75 00:02:39,966 --> 00:02:41,966 We'll have to keep our fingers crossed. 76 00:02:41,966 --> 00:02:42,800 Hope that it happens. 77 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:43,800 - That's pretty good. 78 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:44,533 (audience applauding) - Yeah. 79 00:02:44,533 --> 00:02:45,366 Not bad. 80 00:02:45,366 --> 00:02:46,200 Not a bad team. 81 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,033 - Yeah. 82 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,900 - Just hoping, 83 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:52,533 just wondering what are you hoping for the adaptation, 84 00:02:52,533 --> 00:02:55,066 and yeah, just, yeah, well, yeah, 85 00:02:55,066 --> 00:02:56,200 what you're hoping for it, so. 86 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:57,500 - Of course, there have been films 87 00:02:57,500 --> 00:02:59,033 in which the King story has been told, right? 88 00:02:59,033 --> 00:03:00,466 This would be, again, a little bit like a challenge, 89 00:03:00,466 --> 00:03:02,366 how do you differentiate the telling of the story? 90 00:03:02,366 --> 00:03:05,433 - Yeah, there hasn't been a king straight=up biopic. 91 00:03:05,433 --> 00:03:06,666 "Selma" is probably 92 00:03:06,666 --> 00:03:07,866 the most recent movie- - "Selma," right. 93 00:03:07,866 --> 00:03:09,366 - That really looked deeply in his life. 94 00:03:09,366 --> 00:03:12,466 And the new Bayard Rustin movie has a lot of King in it. 95 00:03:12,466 --> 00:03:14,300 I don't know what to expect, 96 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:18,300 and I just hope that they treat it with honesty, and nuance, 97 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:21,033 and subtlety, and not too sensational, you know? 98 00:03:21,033 --> 00:03:24,466 But you know, I haven't had any of my books 99 00:03:24,466 --> 00:03:26,033 turned into films or TV shows yet. 100 00:03:26,033 --> 00:03:27,766 Some of them are in the works. 101 00:03:27,766 --> 00:03:28,766 - [Audience Member] Right. 102 00:03:28,766 --> 00:03:29,966 - Fingers crossed. 103 00:03:29,966 --> 00:03:31,066 But you just have to hope that like, 104 00:03:31,066 --> 00:03:32,533 people bring the same passion to it. 105 00:03:32,533 --> 00:03:34,066 But it's also, it's in some, it's like, it's, you know, 106 00:03:34,066 --> 00:03:35,700 you raised the baby and now it goes off on its own. 107 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:37,400 - [Host] When they turn the book into the movie, 108 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,833 it's no longer yours, right? 109 00:03:38,833 --> 00:03:40,200 That's the old line. 110 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:41,400 You just have to hope. - Right. 111 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,733 - [Host] But of course, 112 00:03:42,733 --> 00:03:44,166 with those guys in charge of the production, 113 00:03:44,166 --> 00:03:46,700 if that's in fact what happens, pretty good hands. 114 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:47,533 - Very good hands. 115 00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:48,500 - [Host] To be in. 116 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:49,333 Congratulations. 117 00:03:49,333 --> 00:03:50,233 - Thank you. 118 00:03:50,233 --> 00:03:51,066 - [Host] Dan. 119 00:03:52,233 --> 00:03:53,300 - Yeah, I finished the book this weekend. 120 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:54,566 I've read all of your books, 121 00:03:54,566 --> 00:03:55,833 they're all fantastic. - [Jonathan] Wow, 122 00:03:55,833 --> 00:03:56,766 thank you so much. - Thank you for that. 123 00:03:56,766 --> 00:03:58,333 It dawned on me this weekend 124 00:03:58,333 --> 00:04:01,566 that if he was still alive, he would be in his 90s. 125 00:04:01,566 --> 00:04:03,433 - [Jonathan] Right. - [Host] 94, right, 94? 126 00:04:03,433 --> 00:04:04,433 - [Jonathan] He would've just turned 95. 127 00:04:04,433 --> 00:04:05,633 - Jut 95, yeah. 128 00:04:05,633 --> 00:04:06,566 - What do you think he would think of 129 00:04:06,566 --> 00:04:09,966 today's politics and situation? 130 00:04:09,966 --> 00:04:12,133 - Right, what would he think of Donald Trump? 131 00:04:12,133 --> 00:04:13,466 (audience laughing) 132 00:04:13,466 --> 00:04:15,533 Take 30 minutes to answer. 133 00:04:15,533 --> 00:04:16,366 (audience laughing) 134 00:04:16,366 --> 00:04:17,300 - Yeah, right. 135 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:18,666 Oh man, what a great question. 136 00:04:18,666 --> 00:04:20,466 When you go home tonight, check out, 137 00:04:20,466 --> 00:04:21,933 Google "The Boondocks" episode 138 00:04:21,933 --> 00:04:24,900 where King is actually in a coma for all these years 139 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:26,433 and he comes outta the coma, 140 00:04:26,433 --> 00:04:28,066 and he responds to what he's seeing around him, 141 00:04:28,066 --> 00:04:30,000 and he's not a happy person. (audience chuckling) 142 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,166 But I think it'd be, it's so hard, 143 00:04:32,166 --> 00:04:33,466 it feels like we're living on 144 00:04:33,466 --> 00:04:35,600 a different planet than he inhabited, 145 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,933 and maybe that's in part because we lost him. 146 00:04:37,933 --> 00:04:39,433 But I like to look at the examples 147 00:04:39,433 --> 00:04:42,533 of the people who surrounded him, like Harry Belafonte, 148 00:04:42,533 --> 00:04:46,033 who remained a radical all into his 90s. 149 00:04:46,033 --> 00:04:51,000 Like his sister, like Coretta, like John Lewis, 150 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,366 people who never stopped struggling. 151 00:04:52,366 --> 00:04:53,566 - [Host] John Lewis, right. 152 00:04:53,566 --> 00:04:55,900 - And I feel fairly certain that King, 153 00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:57,133 I like to think at least 154 00:04:57,133 --> 00:04:59,766 that King would've never stopped struggling. 155 00:04:59,766 --> 00:05:01,500 - [Host] And one of the King kids 156 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:02,600 just passed away, right? - Yeah. 157 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,700 - [Host] Within the last two weeks. 158 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:04,633 - Yeah, his son Dexter passed away. 159 00:05:04,633 --> 00:05:05,866 - I believe, but the other King- 160 00:05:05,866 --> 00:05:07,233 - He has two surviving children, 161 00:05:07,233 --> 00:05:08,433 right. - Surviving children. 162 00:05:08,433 --> 00:05:11,300 What's your sense of, how much of a, 163 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:13,300 talk a bit about them in the context of this book. 164 00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:14,533 - Well, they decided not to be 165 00:05:14,533 --> 00:05:15,466 interviewed for the book. - Yeah, right. 166 00:05:15,466 --> 00:05:16,533 - And I haven't heard from them 167 00:05:16,533 --> 00:05:17,600 since the book was published. 168 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:18,833 I hope that they might read it 169 00:05:18,833 --> 00:05:21,000 and find something of value in it, 170 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,700 but it's hard to read about your parents, you know? 171 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:26,966 It's hard to read about your parents as flawed humans, 172 00:05:26,966 --> 00:05:28,233 so I understand that. 173 00:05:28,233 --> 00:05:29,466 - [Host] It's hard to read a perfect story, 174 00:05:29,466 --> 00:05:30,100 it's really hard to read an imperfect story. 175 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:30,933 - Yeah. 176 00:05:30,933 --> 00:05:31,833 - [Host] All right, yes. 177 00:05:31,833 --> 00:05:33,366 Okay, Carl, last question. 178 00:05:33,366 --> 00:05:35,700 - I have a friend in New York whose mentor was Abe Briloff, 179 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:39,366 a famous accounting professor at Baruch. 180 00:05:39,366 --> 00:05:43,266 And my friend, Charlie Dreyfuss, who's now 80, 181 00:05:43,266 --> 00:05:48,266 talked about Briloff being Harry Belafonte's accountant, 182 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,800 and how Belafonte was surreptitiously supporting King 183 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,800 in his efforts, and I'm wondering if you came across that, 184 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,400 if that's valid or not, and that King was ultimately, 185 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,400 as part of the FBI activity was audited or examined, 186 00:06:05,666 --> 00:06:07,666 and that one of the Briloff's proudest moments 187 00:06:07,666 --> 00:06:09,033 was they couldn't find anything 188 00:06:09,033 --> 00:06:13,833 that got Belafonte or King in trouble that way. 189 00:06:14,666 --> 00:06:15,900 - That's a great question. 190 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,600 Yeah, King was hugely helped by Belafonte. 191 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,433 Belafonte was deeply concerned 192 00:06:20,433 --> 00:06:22,666 that the King family didn't have enough money. 193 00:06:22,666 --> 00:06:25,366 He paid for all kinds of things for the family, 194 00:06:25,366 --> 00:06:27,433 a housekeeper, babysitters. 195 00:06:27,433 --> 00:06:31,100 He bought a life insurance policy for Dr. King, 196 00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:33,733 which was really all they had when he was assassinated 197 00:06:33,733 --> 00:06:34,933 'cause King had saved nothing. 198 00:06:34,933 --> 00:06:37,766 He had donated every penny of his income 199 00:06:37,766 --> 00:06:40,933 or his book money to the SCLC or to his church. 200 00:06:40,933 --> 00:06:42,833 And the accountants did a great job, 201 00:06:42,833 --> 00:06:45,900 because the, Alabama did come after him for taxes, 202 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:49,866 and a white jury ruled in King's favor 203 00:06:49,866 --> 00:06:52,633 that he did not owe his taxes. 204 00:06:52,633 --> 00:06:54,900 And I just wanna add that- 205 00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:57,600 Oh, what was I gonna say? 206 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,466 Oh, you know, Belafonte really was one of the great heroes. 207 00:07:00,466 --> 00:07:02,533 I know he's a famous guy, 208 00:07:02,533 --> 00:07:03,733 but I still don't think he's gotten all the credit 209 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:06,000 he deserves for everything he did. 210 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,833 He raised money for bail for people when they were arrested, 211 00:07:09,833 --> 00:07:11,333 and during the Birmingham protest, 212 00:07:11,333 --> 00:07:14,866 he rallied Hollywood to support the civil rights crusade, 213 00:07:14,866 --> 00:07:18,333 and Belafonte was a really good friend and ally to King. 214 00:07:18,333 --> 00:07:19,800 - And he was one of the people on your list 215 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,533 who you said, "I better talk to him soon." 216 00:07:21,533 --> 00:07:23,000 - He was one of my first interviews 217 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,500 and one of my favorites. 218 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:27,600 He spent like, three or four hours with me in his apartment. 219 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,566 And he's the kinda person who could say, 220 00:07:30,566 --> 00:07:32,266 you know, sometimes when people are famous 221 00:07:32,266 --> 00:07:34,333 and you know this, they go on autopilot, 222 00:07:34,333 --> 00:07:35,166 they say the same thing over and over. 223 00:07:35,166 --> 00:07:36,666 - Yeah. 224 00:07:36,666 --> 00:07:38,300 - Belafonte would stop and say, "Let me think about that." 225 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:39,800 And he would really think. 226 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,766 I said to him, "What did you guys do when you were bored?" 227 00:07:41,766 --> 00:07:43,833 And he said, "et me think about that. 228 00:07:43,833 --> 00:07:45,800 You know, Martin would come over here a lot 229 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,466 and we would just sit around and listen to records." 230 00:07:48,466 --> 00:07:50,433 And I said, "What kind of music did you listen to?" 231 00:07:50,433 --> 00:07:52,266 And he said, "Let me think about that." 232 00:07:52,266 --> 00:07:53,500 (chuckling) 233 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:54,700 "You know, I took him to a jazz club once. 234 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:56,400 I think we went to hear Lester Young. 235 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,066 And he really didn't like bebop that much, 236 00:07:59,066 --> 00:08:01,733 so when we put on records, we put on movement songs. 237 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:03,966 We put on Peter, Paul and Mary and Lead Belly, 238 00:08:03,966 --> 00:08:05,666 and he'd sing along." 239 00:08:05,666 --> 00:08:07,200 And I said, "Was he a good singer?" 240 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,333 And Belafonte just laughed and said, "He was a loud singer." 241 00:08:10,333 --> 00:08:12,033 (Jonathan and audience laughing) 242 00:08:12,033 --> 00:08:14,066 - Love that, that's great. 243 00:08:14,066 --> 00:08:16,133 Well, we're gonna let Jonathan go get ready for tonight. 244 00:08:16,133 --> 00:08:17,500 He has some other stuff this afternoon. 245 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:18,733 Please give him a big hand. (audience applauding) 246 00:08:18,733 --> 00:08:20,233 It is great to have him here. - Thanks. 247 00:08:20,233 --> 00:08:21,433 - Wish him success. 248 00:08:21,433 --> 00:08:22,966 We'll see you soon, thanks very much. 249 00:08:22,966 --> 00:08:23,800 Great.