WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 00:02.933 --> 00:06.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 00:06.300 --> 00:09.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:09.300 --> 00:13.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Claire and Carl Stuart and by Christine and Philip Dial. 00:15.733 --> 00:17.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:17.066 --> 00:18.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's a University of Michigan law professor 00:18.766 --> 00:20.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and former US attorney 00:20.633 --> 00:23.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% who co-hosts the "Sisters-in-Law" podcast. 00:23.300 --> 00:25.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Her new book, "Attack From Within, 00:25.366 --> 00:28.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How Disinformation is Sabotaging America" 00:28.333 --> 00:29.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% has just been published. 00:29.766 --> 00:31.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% She's Barbara McQuade. 00:31.500 --> 00:32.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is "Overheard". 00:33.766 --> 00:36.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 00:36.700 --> 00:38.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You really turn the conversation 00:38.100 --> 00:40.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% around about what leadership should be about. 00:40.833 --> 00:42.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Are we blowing this? 00:42.200 --> 00:43.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 00:43.900 --> 00:45.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by giving in to the attention junkie? 00:45.933 --> 00:48.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 00:48.333 --> 00:51.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 00:51.200 --> 00:52.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is "Overheard". 00:54.366 --> 00:55.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 00:55.533 --> 00:57.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Barb, thanks so much for being here. 00:57.033 --> 00:58.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh, thank you for having me. My pleasure. 00:58.733 --> 01:01.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Great to see you. And congratulations on this book. 01:01.733 --> 01:06.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The timing is perfect for the moment we are in politics 01:06.000 --> 01:08.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and for the moment we are in the information age. 01:08.333 --> 01:09.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 01:09.533 --> 01:10.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - This is the book that I wanna read 01:10.500 --> 01:11.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that everyone should read. 01:11.900 --> 01:12.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't understand how you had time to write it, 01:12.900 --> 01:14.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% given everything you do, 01:14.500 --> 01:17.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it must have been like in the 27th and 28th hour of the day 01:17.300 --> 01:19.366 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that you wrote this book. 01:19.366 --> 01:22.666 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Why? Why take the time and add it to your pile of things? 01:22.666 --> 01:25.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, at heart, I am a national security prosecutor. 01:25.466 --> 01:27.000 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% That was my background. 01:27.000 --> 01:28.800 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% That's what I teach at Michigan Law School. 01:28.800 --> 01:30.333 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% And so it's been my area of interest 01:30.333 --> 01:34.600 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% really since 2017, 2018 when I started assigning 01:34.600 --> 01:36.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to my students "The Mueller Report". 01:36.166 --> 01:37.566 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 01:37.566 --> 01:39.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And talking about those social media accounts 01:39.400 --> 01:43.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that were fooling people and influencing American politics. 01:43.166 --> 01:46.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I saw that as a threat to our national security, 01:46.266 --> 01:49.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I wanted to share with other people what I am seeing. 01:49.066 --> 01:52.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I hope that if I can help people identify it, 01:52.333 --> 01:54.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% recognize it, we can defeat it together. 01:54.033 --> 01:55.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, the first step is recognizing it 01:55.666 --> 01:57.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and giving voice to it, and then you can solve the problem. 01:57.900 --> 01:59.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I'm thinking about the framing for this book, 01:59.966 --> 02:02.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I can't think of a better framing than something 02:02.233 --> 02:05.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you said to our friend Brian Stelter on a podcast recently, 02:05.700 --> 02:07.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that we need to take back the idea 02:07.800 --> 02:11.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that there is such a thing as truth. 02:11.000 --> 02:13.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We are at a point, first of all, thank you for saying that. 02:13.700 --> 02:15.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But we're at a point now. 02:15.166 --> 02:16.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 02:16.066 --> 02:17.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% A few hands for the truth, 02:18.933 --> 02:22.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but only a few, only a few hands for the truth. 02:22.066 --> 02:23.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We really are at a point now 02:23.733 --> 02:26.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and have been for several years where truth is not truth. 02:26.066 --> 02:28.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Facts are not facts. Reality is subjective. 02:28.933 --> 02:30.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's kind of mind-boggling to think that this 02:30.866 --> 02:32.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is where we are, but this is where we are. 02:32.766 --> 02:34.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, we are ever since Kellyanne Conway 02:34.633 --> 02:36.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% talked about alternative facts, 02:36.300 --> 02:37.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% there has been this debate about, 02:37.900 --> 02:39.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% well, what is truth anyway? 02:39.300 --> 02:41.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What are you, the truth police, the information police? 02:41.933 --> 02:43.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I learned in the research on my book 02:43.833 --> 02:45.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that this is something that has operated 02:45.400 --> 02:47.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in Russia now for decades. 02:47.433 --> 02:50.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This idea of the fog of unknowability. 02:50.400 --> 02:51.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so in Putin's regime, 02:51.833 --> 02:53.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one day I will tell you that the missiles 02:53.600 --> 02:55.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% were shot by Russia. 02:55.033 --> 02:56.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The next day I'll tell you the very same missiles 02:56.733 --> 02:57.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% were shot by Ukraine. 02:57.866 --> 02:58.766 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 02:58.766 --> 03:00.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And on the third day, 03:00.100 --> 03:01.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I will tell you they were shot by NATO. 03:01.400 --> 03:04.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when people can't make sense of any of it, 03:04.000 --> 03:05.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they begin to think, well, there really is no truth. 03:05.866 --> 03:07.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's all PR, it's all spin. 03:07.966 --> 03:10.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so they become exhausted and cynical 03:10.666 --> 03:12.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and disengaged from politics altogether. 03:12.700 --> 03:14.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's impossible to know anything, so why bother? 03:14.933 --> 03:16.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Which, by the way, this is the point. 03:16.333 --> 03:19.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is the plan working exactly as intended, right? 03:19.466 --> 03:20.300 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 03:20.300 --> 03:21.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - That's what people do. 03:21.233 --> 03:23.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, I have tended to believe 03:23.233 --> 03:25.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that this is a relatively new phenomenon. 03:25.800 --> 03:27.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% One way to think about it is, 03:27.066 --> 03:28.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% we're both old enough to remember 03:28.366 --> 03:30.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we all agreed on the basics, 03:30.866 --> 03:33.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then we diverged from there whatever the issue was, 03:33.366 --> 03:34.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whatever the subject was, 03:34.533 --> 03:36.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% whatever the political moment was, 03:36.000 --> 03:37.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we at least agreed on the foundation, 03:37.633 --> 03:39.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% even if we then separated. 03:39.566 --> 03:41.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Now, we don't even agree on the foundation. 03:41.100 --> 03:43.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But then I remembered Pat Moynihan 03:43.200 --> 03:44.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% saying years and years ago, 03:44.733 --> 03:48.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before Donald Trump came across our radar screen 03:48.233 --> 03:50.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% as a potential presidential candidate. 03:50.000 --> 03:51.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "We're all entitled to our own opinions. 03:51.866 --> 03:53.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're not entitled to our own facts". 03:53.700 --> 03:57.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He must be spinning in his grave right now, right? 03:57.066 --> 03:58.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That turns out to be a jump ball. 03:58.633 --> 04:00.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah. No, I think that's right. 04:00.100 --> 04:02.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And it's this revisionist history 04:02.700 --> 04:04.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the idea if you repeat things enough, 04:04.833 --> 04:06.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people will begin to believe them. 04:06.333 --> 04:09.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And as you say, it goes even back farther than that. 04:09.200 --> 04:11.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Hitler wrote about it in "Mein Kampf", 04:11.066 --> 04:12.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that if you repeat a simple narrative again 04:12.966 --> 04:16.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and again and again, people begin to believe it is true. 04:16.000 --> 04:18.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so this idea that we're hearing now 04:18.000 --> 04:21.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that January 6th was some sort of peaceful protest 04:21.366 --> 04:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and referring to the perpetrators who are in jail 04:24.000 --> 04:27.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as hostages, is really getting some momentum. 04:27.266 --> 04:29.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it's a really frightening place to be, 04:29.466 --> 04:31.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to try to look at that and spin that 04:31.566 --> 04:33.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and revise history in that way. 04:33.033 --> 04:34.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - One of the best things about this book, 04:34.733 --> 04:36.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's the first time I've seen anybody 04:36.400 --> 04:40.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% really take the time to do this, is to define terms. 04:40.066 --> 04:42.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% To say, this is what disinformation is, 04:42.333 --> 04:44.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% this is what misinformation is, 04:44.200 --> 04:45.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and how those things are different. 04:45.433 --> 04:46.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Do that for us. 04:46.733 --> 04:48.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, so in my book, I define disinformation 04:48.500 --> 04:50.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as the deliberate use of lies 04:50.800 --> 04:52.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to manipulate and deceive people. 04:52.700 --> 04:54.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Misinformation, on the other hand, 04:54.733 --> 04:58.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is when we hear those things and we believe them. 04:58.000 --> 05:00.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's sort of an unwitting spreader. 05:00.066 --> 05:03.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in that way we can all exponentially amplify 05:03.300 --> 05:06.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a false claim even if we're acting in good faith. 05:06.333 --> 05:09.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, so disinformation is really lies. 05:09.833 --> 05:11.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So why not call it lies? 05:11.100 --> 05:14.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why do we use this big fancy 25 cent word 05:14.400 --> 05:16.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that sounds more academic 05:16.066 --> 05:17.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and maybe doesn't really give people 05:17.633 --> 05:19.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the same sense of urgency? 05:19.900 --> 05:22.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, disinformation includes lies, 05:22.433 --> 05:24.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but it also can include things 05:24.100 --> 05:26.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are sometimes known as reflexive control. 05:26.400 --> 05:27.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - [Evan] Say about that. 05:27.700 --> 05:30.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And that is an effort to tell you something, 05:30.766 --> 05:33.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just to get you to react in a certain way 05:33.033 --> 05:34.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% even if you don't believe it. 05:34.566 --> 05:38.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So for example, this idea that Taylor Swift is a Psy-Op. 05:38.400 --> 05:40.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That the whole thing has been orchestrated, 05:40.533 --> 05:43.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're gonna create this famous pop star, 05:43.200 --> 05:44.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then she's gonna get in a relationship 05:44.766 --> 05:46.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the most famous athlete there is 05:46.900 --> 05:49.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then that team is gonna go to the Super Bowl, 05:49.433 --> 05:51.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's all been orchestrated 05:51.200 --> 05:54.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because then she's going to endorse Joe Biden. 05:55.966 --> 05:59.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a fabulists kind of theme, 05:59.566 --> 06:04.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the idea of it is, it's forcing people to say 06:05.600 --> 06:06.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the last thing now that she can do 06:06.900 --> 06:09.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or wants to do is to endorse Joe Biden. 06:09.433 --> 06:11.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Because if she does, 06:11.133 --> 06:13.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it just feeds into this conspiracy narrative. 06:13.266 --> 06:16.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so she will be inclined to not endorse Joe Biden. 06:16.833 --> 06:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So in some ways it is beyond just lies, 06:19.700 --> 06:21.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's an effort to control our behavior. 06:21.633 --> 06:23.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah. It's like reverse psychology. 06:23.800 --> 06:25.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - [Barbara] Exactly. 06:25.033 --> 06:26.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You tell your kids don't eat your peas 06:26.000 --> 06:27.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if you hope he eats the peas. 06:27.200 --> 06:28.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - If you hope your kid eats the peas. 06:29.433 --> 06:32.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So are conspiracy theories, themselves, 06:32.033 --> 06:33.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a form of disinformation? 06:33.533 --> 06:34.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was trying to sort through 06:34.833 --> 06:36.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where I would put the conspiracy theories 06:36.133 --> 06:37.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that have become part of all of our lives. 06:37.800 --> 06:39.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I mean, common theme on this show 06:39.500 --> 06:41.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% is often the disappearance of news 06:41.900 --> 06:43.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from a lot of communities in this country. 06:43.966 --> 06:46.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And what pops up in place of that 06:46.200 --> 06:48.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is often disinformation and conspiracy theories 06:48.900 --> 06:50.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that tends to drive behavior. 06:50.466 --> 06:53.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So are conspiracy theories an outgrowth of disinformation? 06:53.300 --> 06:54.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah. I think it's part of it. 06:54.633 --> 06:56.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think that there are people 06:56.000 --> 06:58.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who will push a conspiracy theory in an effort 06:58.300 --> 06:59.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to either mess with people 06:59.600 --> 07:02.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or advance a political or personal agenda. 07:02.000 --> 07:04.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it is a way of manipulating us, too. 07:04.733 --> 07:06.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have a chapter in the book 07:06.233 --> 07:09.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% about sort of the psychology of why all of this works. 07:09.000 --> 07:12.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we're kind of wired to believe conspiracies. 07:12.566 --> 07:14.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Right? Some people believe certain things. 07:14.366 --> 07:15.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I happen to know that Elvis 07:15.900 --> 07:17.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is alive in Kalamazoo, Michigan, 07:17.533 --> 07:18.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in case anyone was wondering. 07:18.366 --> 07:19.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 07:19.200 --> 07:20.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - By the way. 07:20.100 --> 07:20.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - By the way, just so you. 07:20.866 --> 07:21.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Just between us. 07:21.700 --> 07:22.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 07:22.800 --> 07:24.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But we are wired to form patterns 07:24.600 --> 07:26.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% based on our observations. 07:26.233 --> 07:28.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It's a matter of self-preservation. 07:28.166 --> 07:31.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If we see dark clouds, we say, "I've seen that before, 07:31.066 --> 07:32.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that means a storm's coming". 07:32.600 --> 07:33.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 07:33.533 --> 07:34.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - "I'm gonna take precautions." 07:34.766 --> 07:36.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But then there are those who really push us 07:36.700 --> 07:39.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and stoke that fear to make us believe 07:39.366 --> 07:41.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something really more calamitous is coming. 07:41.733 --> 07:44.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so things like the COVID vaccine 07:44.766 --> 07:46.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% causes us to become magnetic 07:46.633 --> 07:48.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or some of these other things. 07:48.333 --> 07:50.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Or that there are gonna be chips in our heads. 07:50.133 --> 07:53.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And if that's ultimately the goal of giving us the vaccine 07:53.266 --> 07:54.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is really so that we have, 07:54.700 --> 07:56.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% we're able to be tracked by Jeff Bezos. 07:56.733 --> 07:58.233 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 07:58.233 --> 08:00.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you know, there's certainly like a little bit of basis 08:00.100 --> 08:02.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for that, I mean, we have the Tuskegee experiments 08:02.300 --> 08:04.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that might cause people to be suspicious 08:04.300 --> 08:06.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and hesitant about vaccines, 08:06.133 --> 08:08.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but rather than trying to assure people 08:08.666 --> 08:10.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that this is in the best interest of public health, 08:10.366 --> 08:13.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there are those driving those conspiracy theories, 08:13.133 --> 08:15.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% knowing that people may be susceptible to them 08:15.566 --> 08:17.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and trying to manipulate us into believing these things. 08:17.933 --> 08:20.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And there are, in fact, back to this idea of the lack 08:20.000 --> 08:21.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of news in a lot of the country, there are communities 08:21.933 --> 08:23.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are particularly susceptible to this. 08:23.666 --> 08:25.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We know communities of color during the pandemic, 08:25.966 --> 08:28.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% here in Texas, when the electric grid collapsed, 08:28.800 --> 08:32.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there was rampant misinformation in specific communities 08:32.666 --> 08:34.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that caused people to do or not do things 08:34.933 --> 08:36.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and really put lives at risk. 08:36.333 --> 08:39.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in poor communities, regardless of race, 08:39.266 --> 08:40.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there's often a susceptibility 08:40.800 --> 08:43.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because there is no good information to push out the bad. 08:43.866 --> 08:46.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And it also makes me think of one other thing 08:46.266 --> 08:49.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we are struggling with in society today, 08:49.166 --> 08:52.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is the decline of local journalism. 08:52.000 --> 08:53.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Which is why it's so important 08:53.366 --> 08:55.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we have organizations like "The Texas Tribune" 08:55.166 --> 08:57.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and others to try to fill those gaps. 08:57.300 --> 09:00.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I think it was Tip O'Neill who said, 09:00.100 --> 09:01.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "All politics is local". 09:01.766 --> 09:04.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But it seems that today all politics is national. 09:04.000 --> 09:05.233 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 09:05.233 --> 09:06.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We're all just reading the big headlines 09:06.933 --> 09:09.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we're all talking about the immigration issues 09:09.266 --> 09:12.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the border or what's going on at the Supreme Court 09:12.333 --> 09:14.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and not so much what's going on in our local communities. 09:14.700 --> 09:19.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's where we can build community together 09:19.066 --> 09:21.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if we know what's going on, if we can talk to each other, 09:21.533 --> 09:23.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that's where we can really learn from each other, 09:23.266 --> 09:25.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but instead we've seen the demise 09:25.633 --> 09:27.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% of those local news outlets. 09:27.333 --> 09:29.566 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% And so instead we're fighting with each other 09:29.566 --> 09:32.833 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% about these big issues and feeling like we have no control 09:32.833 --> 09:34.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% over our own destinies. 09:34.233 --> 09:35.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And don't necessarily trust the people telling us, 09:35.700 --> 09:39.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% unlike the people who are locally providing us news 09:39.500 --> 09:41.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where we know them, often it's an intimate relationship. 09:41.600 --> 09:43.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's a very different, it's a very different deal. 09:43.533 --> 09:46.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The consequences of disinformation spreading 09:46.700 --> 09:49.400 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% around the country, it seems to me are at least a couple. 09:49.400 --> 09:51.000 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% First thing, maybe most obviously, 09:51.000 --> 09:53.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that it motivates people to act 09:53.633 --> 09:56.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the basis of things that are not true. 09:56.200 --> 09:58.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Like people take action on that basis. 09:58.033 --> 10:01.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% That's like just sort of basic thing. 10:01.200 --> 10:03.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But you talk about January 6th in this book, 10:03.466 --> 10:05.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you start the book with January 6th, 10:05.100 --> 10:06.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you've mentioned it today. 10:06.466 --> 10:09.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Spurring people to violent action on the basis 10:09.366 --> 10:12.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of disinformation, that is also legitimately the kind 10:12.600 --> 10:14.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of consequence that we have to be on the lookout for. 10:14.633 --> 10:15.866 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 10:15.866 --> 10:17.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in fact that's, one of my worries 10:17.166 --> 10:18.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as a national security prosecutor and professor 10:18.900 --> 10:21.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the effect this is having on public safety. 10:21.033 --> 10:24.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so when you have people undermining public confidence 10:24.700 --> 10:25.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in law enforcement 10:25.966 --> 10:28.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% or undermining confidence in the courts, 10:28.300 --> 10:32.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or suggesting that our elections have been defrauded, 10:32.400 --> 10:34.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people get angry, understandably. 10:34.700 --> 10:36.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so there will be somebody, 10:36.800 --> 10:39.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% you may not know who or when or why, 10:39.300 --> 10:41.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but somebody is going to be spurred to action 10:41.866 --> 10:44.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and is gonna decide to take the law into their own hands. 10:44.400 --> 10:45.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And so I think vigilante violence 10:45.900 --> 10:47.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is something we can expect. 10:47.400 --> 10:49.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In my home state of Michigan, 10:49.166 --> 10:50.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there was a plot to kidnap our governor. 10:50.933 --> 10:52.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Governor Whitmer. That's right. 10:52.433 --> 10:55.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - When she imposed lockdown orders during COVID-19, 10:55.366 --> 10:57.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people who had been told it was a hoax and a fraud 10:57.766 --> 10:59.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it would end by Easter and all these other things 10:59.766 --> 11:02.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were very angry that she had shut down businesses 11:02.233 --> 11:03.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in our state. 11:03.666 --> 11:05.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so they plotted to kidnap her and put her on trial 11:05.533 --> 11:07.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and engage in a citizen's arrest. 11:07.466 --> 11:10.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The man who broke into Nancy Pelosi's home 11:10.333 --> 11:12.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and hit her husband in the head with a hammer, 11:12.700 --> 11:14.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is somebody who was angered 11:14.266 --> 11:16.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and thought he needed to take the law into his own hands. 11:16.200 --> 11:18.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then of course, the January 6th attackers 11:18.300 --> 11:20.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were so stoked by their anger that they thought 11:20.133 --> 11:21.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% their democracy was being stolen, 11:21.900 --> 11:24.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that they thought they had to use force, 11:24.533 --> 11:27.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% brute force, to stop that certification. 11:27.300 --> 11:29.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so this disinformation gives people 11:29.066 --> 11:31.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not just license to engage in violence, 11:31.233 --> 11:33.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but almost compels them to engage in violence. 11:33.766 --> 11:35.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The idea that the ends justify the means 11:35.633 --> 11:38.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because our country has spun so out of control. 11:38.233 --> 11:40.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So of course, we ideally, in the legal system, 11:40.933 --> 11:44.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% hold the people who take that violent action accountable. 11:44.633 --> 11:46.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There've been how many number of people 11:46.133 --> 11:47.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% associated with January 6th 11:47.500 --> 11:51.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who have now been arrested and incarcerated. 11:51.033 --> 11:52.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Some of the other cases you mentioned, 11:52.466 --> 11:54.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the gentleman who attacked Mr. Pelosi, 11:57.133 --> 11:58.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but how about the people 11:58.933 --> 12:01.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% who spread the disinformation to begin with? 12:01.600 --> 12:03.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Where are the consequences for that? 12:03.600 --> 12:06.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I guess that, in part, is what the series of cases 12:06.766 --> 12:09.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% around the former president are about? 12:09.833 --> 12:10.933 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 12:10.933 --> 12:12.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Is there a legal case to be made 12:12.833 --> 12:15.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% against someone who knowingly, 12:15.133 --> 12:17.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% knowingly spreads disinformation? 12:17.600 --> 12:18.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, so what's challenging about it, 12:18.966 --> 12:20.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and of course we do have several indictments. 12:20.700 --> 12:22.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The one that I think is the most consequential 12:22.633 --> 12:24.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the federal election interference case. 12:24.966 --> 12:26.300 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 12:26.300 --> 12:27.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And if Donald Trump is elected president, 12:27.633 --> 12:30.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% then I think he likely will dismiss the case 12:30.666 --> 12:32.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and prevent it from going to trial. 12:32.066 --> 12:33.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we need a couple things to happen. 12:33.700 --> 12:35.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% One is either that the case goes to trial 12:35.166 --> 12:36.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% before the election 12:36.500 --> 12:37.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or Donald Trump is defeated in the election. 12:37.866 --> 12:39.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But you believe as someone who understands 12:39.600 --> 12:42.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how the law works, that there is at least the theory 12:42.566 --> 12:43.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of a legal case here 12:43.866 --> 12:45.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% against someone who spreads disinformation 12:45.533 --> 12:49.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for the purpose of inspiring that kind of violent action 12:49.233 --> 12:50.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that takes place. 12:50.066 --> 12:51.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I absolutely do. 12:51.266 --> 12:53.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Even before that indictment was filed, 12:53.566 --> 12:56.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wrote a piece in the blog called "Just Security" 12:56.033 --> 12:58.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% arguing for the exact theory that was charged. 12:58.766 --> 13:00.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Not that I'm any mind reader, 13:00.400 --> 13:04.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it's actually a very common charge that prosecutors use, 13:04.533 --> 13:07.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is conspiracy to defraud the United States. 13:07.300 --> 13:09.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that is anyone who uses fraud to interfere 13:09.933 --> 13:11.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with the proper functioning 13:11.233 --> 13:13.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the administration of a government act. 13:13.233 --> 13:15.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So right here, the proper administration 13:15.400 --> 13:17.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the peaceful transfer of presidential power 13:17.600 --> 13:20.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was something that was interfered with by fraud. 13:20.000 --> 13:22.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, to me, that seems like an obvious charge. 13:22.933 --> 13:27.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Of course, there's a lot of legal challenges 13:27.866 --> 13:30.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of obtaining a conviction 13:30.166 --> 13:31.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because our system is designed 13:31.833 --> 13:34.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a way that makes it better that 10 guilty people go free 13:34.766 --> 13:36.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than that one innocent person be convicted 13:36.433 --> 13:37.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and so we have a lot of due process. 13:37.733 --> 13:38.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But there's a path, there's a path forward. 13:38.666 --> 13:40.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Absolutely a path to that. 13:40.166 --> 13:43.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So unless we see abuse of power by the next president, 13:43.733 --> 13:45.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think that case will come to trial. 13:45.766 --> 13:47.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And Donald Trump and others will get a fair trial, 13:47.966 --> 13:50.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the people will get to see that evidence 13:50.266 --> 13:52.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as we saw during the January 6th hearings 13:52.800 --> 13:54.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the Congress put forth. 13:54.333 --> 13:56.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I'm glad you bring up the January 6th hearings, 13:56.100 --> 13:57.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I wanna talk about what happens 13:57.833 --> 13:59.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when we call out disinformation. 13:59.666 --> 14:02.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are a series of consequences of disinformation 14:02.900 --> 14:04.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% being out in the bloodstream, 14:04.266 --> 14:06.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then there are consequences of calling it out. 14:06.100 --> 14:08.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% One of the consequences for, these days, 14:08.900 --> 14:13.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Republicans calling out disinformation by other Republicans, 14:13.766 --> 14:15.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is they lose elections 14:15.533 --> 14:17.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or they're put in a position 14:17.066 --> 14:20.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of having to retire from the office that they hold 14:20.100 --> 14:25.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because the pressure and the abuse of them is so great. 14:26.633 --> 14:29.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Liz Cheney, speaking of those hearings, is a great example. 14:29.166 --> 14:30.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Five minutes ago you would've thought 14:30.566 --> 14:32.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% most conservative person in the entire world, right? 14:32.933 --> 14:34.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Daughter of the former Vice President, 14:36.033 --> 14:39.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% voted the right way on every other issue 14:39.400 --> 14:42.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the people who now point fingers at her 14:42.466 --> 14:43.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% except for the one thing. 14:43.966 --> 14:45.500 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 14:45.500 --> 14:48.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - That caused her to have a primary opponent in Wyoming, 14:48.900 --> 14:50.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% supported by the former president 14:50.300 --> 14:53.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and she was soundly defeated in her reelection. 14:54.800 --> 14:56.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This maybe dis-incentivizes some people. 14:56.500 --> 14:57.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Oh yeah. 14:57.800 --> 14:59.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, you've gotta put career over country. 14:59.033 --> 15:00.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, absolutely. 15:00.366 --> 15:02.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Well, I think she's a great example 15:03.633 --> 15:06.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and this demonstrates the point between there's a difference 15:06.266 --> 15:09.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% between having a conservative political viewpoint 15:09.000 --> 15:10.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as Liz Cheney does, 15:10.433 --> 15:14.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and having political integrity, which she also has. 15:14.233 --> 15:16.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And those are two very different things. 15:16.033 --> 15:19.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It, to me, is shocking that so few people 15:19.166 --> 15:23.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% have followed the path of Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger. 15:23.066 --> 15:24.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Adam Kinzinger is an example of somebody 15:24.500 --> 15:26.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who wasn't defeated, but who decided not to run. 15:26.533 --> 15:29.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, he realized it was an unworkable choice 15:29.966 --> 15:32.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to be able to continue serving in this capacity. 15:32.733 --> 15:35.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And yet there's so many who have gone along 15:35.833 --> 15:38.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with the disinformation and the idea of a stolen election. 15:38.966 --> 15:40.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean Donald Trump is not the only person 15:40.966 --> 15:43.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% referring to January 6th defendants as hostages. 15:43.633 --> 15:45.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:45.000 --> 15:46.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Elise Stefanik, Congresswoman from New York, 15:46.500 --> 15:49.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is someone who has really flipped the way she governs 15:49.766 --> 15:52.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in what I see as just naked careerism. 15:52.866 --> 15:55.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I am willing to say things that are not true 15:55.833 --> 15:58.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just to advance my own career. 15:58.100 --> 16:00.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Marjorie Taylor Greene does the same thing. 16:00.266 --> 16:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We had Senator Ted Cruz from here in Texas, 16:03.000 --> 16:05.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and Senator Josh Hawley in Missouri, 16:05.966 --> 16:09.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ivy League-educated lawyers who most certainly knew better, 16:09.133 --> 16:12.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but also refused to certify the election on January 6th, 16:12.600 --> 16:14.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for the reason that some people believed 16:14.800 --> 16:16.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the election was fraudulent. 16:16.800 --> 16:18.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Well, that was then. 16:18.333 --> 16:19.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And of course, here we are sitting here four years later 16:19.666 --> 16:22.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the polls show that a third of the public 16:22.933 --> 16:26.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and two thirds of Republicans still, despite any evidence, 16:26.666 --> 16:28.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% believe that the election was stolen. 16:28.133 --> 16:29.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That disinformation campaign 16:29.700 --> 16:32.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on that one subject is continuing to be successful. 16:32.733 --> 16:34.266 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 16:34.266 --> 16:36.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think one of the things that is so challenging for us 16:36.500 --> 16:39.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in our times is we have such information overload, 16:39.900 --> 16:42.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the ability to, who would've thought 16:42.000 --> 16:44.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have information at our fingertips, 16:44.400 --> 16:46.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that we would be less informed today 16:46.400 --> 16:48.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than maybe we were a few decades ago. 16:48.400 --> 16:51.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But there's so much out there that I think we now 16:51.733 --> 16:54.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% will cede to proxies what to think, 16:54.933 --> 16:56.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to tell us what to think, 16:56.100 --> 16:58.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so we look for credible voices out there 16:58.266 --> 17:00.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to help us navigate the landscape, 17:00.533 --> 17:02.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because there's just so much information. 17:02.200 --> 17:03.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And then you have people 17:03.500 --> 17:06.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% putting out blatantly false things online, 17:06.366 --> 17:07.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% some of whom are even doing it 17:07.766 --> 17:10.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% under a false persona and we tend to believe it. 17:10.500 --> 17:13.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Some of the things that are in "The Mueller Report", 17:13.400 --> 17:15.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there were accounts run by Russian operatives. 17:15.900 --> 17:17.500 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 17:17.500 --> 17:19.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - With names like Blacktivist and United Muslims of America 17:19.100 --> 17:21.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and Heart of Texas and then on the eve of the election, 17:21.466 --> 17:22.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Blacktivist, for example, 17:22.866 --> 17:25.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% says "Hillary Clinton never did anything for us 17:25.500 --> 17:29.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and so we should make sure she knows 17:29.033 --> 17:31.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that she should not take us for granted. 17:31.000 --> 17:33.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We can send her a message by not showing up 17:33.266 --> 17:34.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to vote for her." 17:34.400 --> 17:35.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - You make the point in this book 17:35.966 --> 17:38.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that one of the problems going forward with disinformation 17:38.100 --> 17:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that any guardrails that ever existed on social media 17:41.333 --> 17:44.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to possibly prevent this kind of disinformation 17:44.333 --> 17:48.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% have largely been obliterated by new ownership. 17:49.666 --> 17:53.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And sort of new policies for what we're permitting 17:53.000 --> 17:55.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to get online, I mean, that's not helping. 17:55.833 --> 17:58.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - No, you mentioned earlier when we were backstage, 17:58.833 --> 18:00.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this piece in "The New York Times" today. 18:00.633 --> 18:01.866 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Today. 18:01.866 --> 18:04.366 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% - That talks about this idea of any effort 18:04.366 --> 18:08.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% to regulate social media is called censorship. 18:08.166 --> 18:09.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Or to combat disinformation, right? 18:09.966 --> 18:13.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You are censoring conservatives if you do that. 18:13.266 --> 18:15.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah and it's an attractive argument 18:15.733 --> 18:18.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because people on the left and on the right, 18:18.033 --> 18:19.433 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and everybody in between, 18:19.433 --> 18:21.366 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% revere our First Amendment right to free speech, 18:21.366 --> 18:23.466 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% as do I, as I'm sure you do as well. 18:23.466 --> 18:25.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so when you throw out the word censorship, 18:25.600 --> 18:27.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% everybody recoils in horror like, 18:27.166 --> 18:29.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Oh no, I don't wanna be a censor, I can't be a censor". 18:29.966 --> 18:32.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But of course anybody who understands the constitution 18:32.933 --> 18:35.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% knows that the First Amendment rights of free speech 18:35.333 --> 18:38.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and free press, like every other right in the Constitution, 18:38.400 --> 18:39.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% is not absolute. 18:39.633 --> 18:41.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yep. 18:41.000 --> 18:42.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - They may be regulated by time, place and manner. 18:42.600 --> 18:45.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know the old adage, you can't yell "Fire" 18:45.133 --> 18:47.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a crowded theater or a crowded studio like this one. 18:47.700 --> 18:49.033 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 18:49.033 --> 18:52.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Because you have to read the Constitution, 18:52.066 --> 18:54.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% not in a vacuum, but in coordination 18:54.600 --> 18:56.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with all the other provisions of the Constitution 18:56.266 --> 18:58.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and so it's not a suicide pact. 18:58.066 --> 19:01.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have a right to reasonable regulation 19:01.866 --> 19:04.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as long as there's a compelling governmental interest 19:04.066 --> 19:06.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. 19:06.566 --> 19:09.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so things on social media that, for example, 19:09.800 --> 19:12.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% take down things that are dangerous to public safety, 19:12.300 --> 19:16.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% like quack cures for COVID, is in the public interest 19:16.133 --> 19:18.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to take that down or the idea that an election was stolen 19:18.900 --> 19:20.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% without any evidence. 19:20.966 --> 19:22.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% How do you fix that? 19:22.366 --> 19:24.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's challenging because sometimes disinformation online 19:24.800 --> 19:28.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% has a grain of truth, but is instead misleading. 19:28.000 --> 19:29.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I still think there are ways to do that 19:29.600 --> 19:32.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by pointing people to accurate information 19:32.366 --> 19:35.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or regulating the algorithms that are designed 19:35.200 --> 19:38.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to generate outrage as opposed to providing facts. 19:38.300 --> 19:40.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So is the media business partly responsible for this? 19:40.966 --> 19:43.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, I appreciate what you said about the undermining 19:43.166 --> 19:45.033 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% of faith and confidence in institutions, 19:45.033 --> 19:47.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% including the press, but also courts and so on. 19:47.166 --> 19:49.033 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% That's partly what's going on here. 19:49.033 --> 19:51.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Partly we have a media literacy problem in this country. 19:51.333 --> 19:52.233 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 19:52.233 --> 19:53.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - The inability of people 19:53.533 --> 19:54.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to distinguish good information from bad. 19:54.966 --> 19:57.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I wanna self-flagellate here and say that we, 19:57.766 --> 19:59.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the media business, over the last four years, 19:59.600 --> 20:02.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% particularly, did not do a good enough job 20:02.100 --> 20:05.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of calling BS when BS needed to be called, 20:05.766 --> 20:08.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% on pushing back against this stuff. 20:08.000 --> 20:09.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There tended to be more of a, 20:09.333 --> 20:10.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Well, that's another point of view, 20:10.833 --> 20:14.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so we have to give it airtime" or put it in our pages. 20:14.033 --> 20:14.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Would you agree with that? 20:14.900 --> 20:16.266 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - I do. 20:16.266 --> 20:18.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And with some exceptions, I don't fault the media. 20:18.600 --> 20:21.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think that they are relying on years of training 20:21.900 --> 20:24.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and experience to tell both sides of a story. 20:24.333 --> 20:27.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But both sides of a story rely on both sides 20:27.300 --> 20:28.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% coming to the table in good faith. 20:28.700 --> 20:29.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Good faith and with facts. 20:29.966 --> 20:31.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Yeah. Right? 20:31.300 --> 20:32.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so people have different views of things, 20:32.400 --> 20:33.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but we all agree on the same facts. 20:33.633 --> 20:35.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so then along comes Donald Trump, 20:35.600 --> 20:37.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in the campaign starting maybe 2015 20:37.633 --> 20:40.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and starts saying things that are blatantly untrue. 20:40.333 --> 20:44.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the media is very reluctant to use the word lie. 20:44.033 --> 20:45.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They will just say, "Here's what he said", 20:45.933 --> 20:47.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and then maybe they will point out 20:48.833 --> 20:50.266 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% some other facts that allow a reader. 20:50.266 --> 20:52.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And sometimes in saying what he said, 20:52.033 --> 20:54.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which was not true, they're ultimately amplifying it. 20:54.633 --> 20:55.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Absolutely. 20:55.466 --> 20:57.033 align:left position:40% line:83% size:50% - Right? - Yes. 20:57.033 --> 21:01.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, we know in the days leading up to the 2016 election, 21:01.200 --> 21:03.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% news stories all about Hillary Clinton's emails 21:03.900 --> 21:08.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% occupied the headlines greater than any other issue 21:08.833 --> 21:11.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that was being discussed at the time. 21:12.300 --> 21:14.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% When Nancy Pelosi's husband was attacked 21:14.300 --> 21:17.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by this hammer-wielding intruder, 21:17.400 --> 21:20.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there were jokes that Donald Trump Jr posted 21:20.533 --> 21:23.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% suggesting, with zero facts, a nefarious cause 21:23.666 --> 21:25.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% based on a relationship that didn't exist 21:25.666 --> 21:28.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that actually contributed to that attack. 21:28.033 --> 21:29.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The media starts reporting that. 21:29.766 --> 21:34.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And so people are not disciplined enough to read the details 21:34.266 --> 21:38.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and say, "Well, he just said that and it's not true". 21:38.366 --> 21:39.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They just read the substance of it. 21:39.900 --> 21:41.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And in the back of their head is, 21:41.533 --> 21:42.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Well, I heard this thing." 21:42.900 --> 21:43.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - It gives legitimacy to it. 21:43.733 --> 21:44.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - It does. 21:44.733 --> 21:46.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so I think that the press 21:46.033 --> 21:48.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% needs to avoid being manipulated and used 21:48.833 --> 21:51.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to amplify false claims 21:51.300 --> 21:52.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and needs to stand down when there are. 21:52.866 --> 21:54.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Now on the other hand, 21:54.300 --> 21:56.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it is tricky to figure out how to get this right 21:56.233 --> 21:58.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because right now we've got Donald Trump out there 21:58.433 --> 22:00.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at all these rallies saying some really outrageous things. 22:00.800 --> 22:02.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I mean, just can't even believe it. 22:02.600 --> 22:04.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And if you don't cover it, 22:04.400 --> 22:06.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% then people won't know about the outrage. 22:06.100 --> 22:09.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like, a moment of honor for the hostages 22:09.600 --> 22:12.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who are still being held before the national anthem, 22:12.633 --> 22:13.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% referring to. 22:13.933 --> 22:15.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Referring to January 6th. - January 6th. 22:15.933 --> 22:17.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Talking about a blood bath 22:17.433 --> 22:19.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as he's discussing the auto industry. 22:19.233 --> 22:22.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so people need to know these things. 22:22.333 --> 22:26.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I think we'll come to a place of equilibrium, I hope, 22:26.533 --> 22:29.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where the press does report on what's being said, 22:29.066 --> 22:31.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also provides some real time fact checking. 22:31.900 --> 22:33.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I think it's tricky to do. 22:33.466 --> 22:36.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I know that when Donald Trump appeared at a CNN Town Hall, 22:37.533 --> 22:40.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he speaks in such word salad 22:40.000 --> 22:41.666 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that it can be really challenging 22:41.666 --> 22:43.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to fact check in real time. 22:43.833 --> 22:45.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I imagine a day, Evan, 22:45.300 --> 22:47.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% when it looks something like this, 22:47.000 --> 22:48.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% someone's interviewing him or he's talking 22:48.866 --> 22:50.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's like sports commentary, right? 22:50.633 --> 22:52.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Where somebody says, "Okay, now in my experience 22:52.866 --> 22:54.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that one right there, that's not true". 22:54.300 --> 22:55.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Here are the facts and you've got it down there. 22:55.600 --> 22:58.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So you have to have real time analysis, I think, 22:58.066 --> 23:01.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to be able to debunk some of the lies that are coming. 23:01.466 --> 23:04.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's something tough to pull off successfully. 23:04.633 --> 23:05.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we have a couple minutes left. 23:05.900 --> 23:09.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What is the McQuade plan for fixing all this? 23:09.066 --> 23:10.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - [Barbara] Yeah. 23:10.033 --> 23:11.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Because surely you have one. 23:11.433 --> 23:13.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I do, in fact the longest chapter in the book. 23:13.233 --> 23:14.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yeah, see. (audience applauding) 23:14.600 --> 23:15.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 23:15.633 --> 23:17.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Great. 23:17.000 --> 23:18.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The longest chapter in the book is on solutions. 23:18.233 --> 23:19.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Some are government-based solutions 23:19.633 --> 23:21.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and some are things we can do as individuals. 23:21.333 --> 23:23.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So things like regulating algorithms 23:23.400 --> 23:24.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is something we surely can do 23:24.800 --> 23:27.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that would prevent the generation of outrage, 23:27.466 --> 23:29.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is something that's happening online. 23:29.400 --> 23:31.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Campaign finance reform, that would allow us 23:31.333 --> 23:33.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to see where this dark money is coming from 23:33.933 --> 23:35.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just by providing disclosure and transparency. 23:35.866 --> 23:38.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 23:38.700 --> 23:41.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Promoting media literacy and Civics education. 23:41.400 --> 23:43.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Right now we spend 5 cents, 23:43.033 --> 23:44.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (audience applauding) for Civics, 23:44.600 --> 23:48.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for every $50 we spend on STEM education in our schools. 23:48.000 --> 23:50.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so we need to do better on Civics education. 23:50.966 --> 23:52.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But here's the part where we all come in. 23:52.566 --> 23:55.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% One, being a citizen in this country 23:55.000 --> 23:57.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% requires the responsibility of being an informed citizen 23:57.800 --> 24:01.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so that we can cast our votes in an actual factual way. 24:01.233 --> 24:02.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's our duty. 24:02.633 --> 24:06.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But the other is we need to choose truth over tribe. 24:06.533 --> 24:08.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think sometimes we have divided ourselves 24:08.733 --> 24:11.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% into tribes of blue team and red team 24:11.000 --> 24:13.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we so want our side to be right 24:13.766 --> 24:15.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that sometimes we're willing to go along 24:15.833 --> 24:17.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with whatever our side says. 24:17.100 --> 24:18.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Look past the truth, right? 24:18.000 --> 24:19.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yeah. To win the debate. 24:19.833 --> 24:22.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And I think that we need to realize 24:22.200 --> 24:25.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that real social progress comes from compromise and nuance 24:25.533 --> 24:27.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and seeing the areas of gray 24:27.100 --> 24:29.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and admitting when we have a point that is weak. 24:29.900 --> 24:32.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As a prosecutor, I knew that my credibility 24:32.433 --> 24:35.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% depended on occasionally conceding 24:35.466 --> 24:37.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when there was a weak point, 24:37.066 --> 24:38.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but pointing out that the facts 24:38.933 --> 24:42.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that were in favor of a policy were what mattered more. 24:42.500 --> 24:43.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so we need to recognize that 24:43.866 --> 24:45.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if we're gonna really solve problems. 24:45.533 --> 24:47.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It occurs to me, we have one minute left, 24:47.033 --> 24:49.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that people are looking at this election 24:49.200 --> 24:51.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as the point at which we decide 24:51.866 --> 24:54.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are we going to walk back from the brink or not. 24:54.300 --> 24:56.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The reality is that regardless of the outcome 24:56.933 --> 24:59.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of this election, we're still gonna have this problem. 24:59.233 --> 25:00.900 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Sure. 25:00.900 --> 25:02.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Right, this is not about the outcome of this one election. 25:02.566 --> 25:04.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is a problem that's gonna be with us. 25:04.133 --> 25:05.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I think that's right. 25:05.600 --> 25:07.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you need only look at the 2020 election, right? 25:07.100 --> 25:09.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I know we said all the same things leading up to that. 25:09.600 --> 25:11.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And in fact, for the past four years, 25:11.333 --> 25:14.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we've seen the same kind of attack on information. 25:14.133 --> 25:17.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think as we continue to work through social media, 25:17.700 --> 25:20.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we're kind of in the teenage years of social media, 25:20.033 --> 25:21.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're still figuring it out. 25:21.433 --> 25:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And unless we come up with real regulation there 25:24.000 --> 25:25.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and a real commitment to truth, 25:25.600 --> 25:28.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we are gonna find ourselves still in this situation. 25:28.200 --> 25:29.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I think we can do those things. 25:29.766 --> 25:32.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We can come up with reasonable regulations for social media 25:32.700 --> 25:34.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I hope that if people are willing 25:34.866 --> 25:37.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to recognize these tactics of disinformation, 25:37.766 --> 25:39.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we can defeat them together. 25:39.033 --> 25:41.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I'm gonna let us end on an upbeat note. 25:41.400 --> 25:42.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's it. 25:42.766 --> 25:44.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Barbara McQuade, thank you so much for being here. 25:44.100 --> 25:45.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Great to be with you. Thank you. 25:45.300 --> 25:48.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (audience cheering and applauding) 25:48.300 --> 25:50.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:50.766 --> 25:54.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 25:54.500 --> 25:56.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 25:56.500 --> 25:58.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Q&As with our audience and guests 25:58.800 --> 26:01.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:01.033 --> 26:03.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I do think this divide and conquer strategy 26:03.266 --> 26:06.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is an effort to separate working class white people 26:06.000 --> 26:09.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from working class other people by othering them 26:09.500 --> 26:11.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and keeping working class white people in the fold. 26:11.633 --> 26:16.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because if but for this disinformation about the economy 26:17.933 --> 26:19.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and what's really in your financial best interest, 26:19.233 --> 26:21.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% those groups would all naturally band together 26:21.900 --> 26:24.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and defeat corporate interests. 26:24.366 --> 26:26.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 26:26.500 --> 26:29.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 26:29.866 --> 26:32.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:32.866 --> 26:37.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Claire and Carl Stuart and by Christine and Philip Dial. 26:38.766 --> 26:41.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (bright tones)