1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:02,933 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 2 00:00:02,933 --> 00:00:06,300 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 3 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,300 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 4 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:13,533 Claire and Carl Stuart and by Christine and Philip Dial. 5 00:00:15,733 --> 00:00:17,066 - I'm Evan Smith. 6 00:00:17,066 --> 00:00:18,766 She's a University of Michigan law professor 7 00:00:18,766 --> 00:00:20,633 and former US attorney 8 00:00:20,633 --> 00:00:23,300 who co-hosts the "Sisters-in-Law" podcast. 9 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:25,366 Her new book, "Attack From Within, 10 00:00:25,366 --> 00:00:28,333 How Disinformation is Sabotaging America" 11 00:00:28,333 --> 00:00:29,766 has just been published. 12 00:00:29,766 --> 00:00:31,500 She's Barbara McQuade. 13 00:00:31,500 --> 00:00:32,500 This is "Overheard". 14 00:00:33,766 --> 00:00:36,700 A platform and a voice is a powerful thing. 15 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:38,100 You really turn the conversation 16 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:40,833 around about what leadership should be about. 17 00:00:40,833 --> 00:00:42,200 Are we blowing this? 18 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,900 Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing 19 00:00:43,900 --> 00:00:45,933 by giving in to the attention junkie? 20 00:00:45,933 --> 00:00:48,333 As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves 21 00:00:48,333 --> 00:00:51,200 to the same standards that we hold everybody else. 22 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:52,166 This is "Overheard". 23 00:00:54,366 --> 00:00:55,533 (audience applauding) 24 00:00:55,533 --> 00:00:57,033 Barb, thanks so much for being here. 25 00:00:57,033 --> 00:00:58,733 - Oh, thank you for having me. My pleasure. 26 00:00:58,733 --> 00:01:01,733 - Great to see you. And congratulations on this book. 27 00:01:01,733 --> 00:01:06,000 The timing is perfect for the moment we are in politics 28 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,333 and for the moment we are in the information age. 29 00:01:08,333 --> 00:01:09,533 - Yeah. 30 00:01:09,533 --> 00:01:10,500 - This is the book that I wanna read 31 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:11,900 and that everyone should read. 32 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:12,900 I don't understand how you had time to write it, 33 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:14,500 given everything you do, 34 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:17,300 it must have been like in the 27th and 28th hour of the day 35 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:19,366 that you wrote this book. 36 00:01:19,366 --> 00:01:22,666 Why? Why take the time and add it to your pile of things? 37 00:01:22,666 --> 00:01:25,466 - Well, at heart, I am a national security prosecutor. 38 00:01:25,466 --> 00:01:27,000 That was my background. 39 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:28,800 That's what I teach at Michigan Law School. 40 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,333 And so it's been my area of interest 41 00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:34,600 really since 2017, 2018 when I started assigning 42 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,166 to my students "The Mueller Report". 43 00:01:36,166 --> 00:01:37,566 - Wow. 44 00:01:37,566 --> 00:01:39,400 - And talking about those social media accounts 45 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,166 that were fooling people and influencing American politics. 46 00:01:43,166 --> 00:01:46,266 And so I saw that as a threat to our national security, 47 00:01:46,266 --> 00:01:49,066 and I wanted to share with other people what I am seeing. 48 00:01:49,066 --> 00:01:52,333 And so I hope that if I can help people identify it, 49 00:01:52,333 --> 00:01:54,033 recognize it, we can defeat it together. 50 00:01:54,033 --> 00:01:55,666 - Yeah, the first step is recognizing it 51 00:01:55,666 --> 00:01:57,900 and giving voice to it, and then you can solve the problem. 52 00:01:57,900 --> 00:01:59,966 So I'm thinking about the framing for this book, 53 00:01:59,966 --> 00:02:02,233 and I can't think of a better framing than something 54 00:02:02,233 --> 00:02:05,700 you said to our friend Brian Stelter on a podcast recently, 55 00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:07,800 that we need to take back the idea 56 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,000 that there is such a thing as truth. 57 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,700 We are at a point, first of all, thank you for saying that. 58 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:15,166 But we're at a point now. 59 00:02:15,166 --> 00:02:16,066 (audience applauding) 60 00:02:16,066 --> 00:02:17,466 A few hands for the truth, 61 00:02:18,933 --> 00:02:22,066 but only a few, only a few hands for the truth. 62 00:02:22,066 --> 00:02:23,733 We really are at a point now 63 00:02:23,733 --> 00:02:26,066 and have been for several years where truth is not truth. 64 00:02:26,066 --> 00:02:28,933 Facts are not facts. Reality is subjective. 65 00:02:28,933 --> 00:02:30,866 It's kind of mind-boggling to think that this 66 00:02:30,866 --> 00:02:32,766 is where we are, but this is where we are. 67 00:02:32,766 --> 00:02:34,633 - Well, we are ever since Kellyanne Conway 68 00:02:34,633 --> 00:02:36,300 talked about alternative facts, 69 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:37,900 there has been this debate about, 70 00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:39,300 well, what is truth anyway? 71 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:41,933 What are you, the truth police, the information police? 72 00:02:41,933 --> 00:02:43,833 But I learned in the research on my book 73 00:02:43,833 --> 00:02:45,400 that this is something that has operated 74 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,433 in Russia now for decades. 75 00:02:47,433 --> 00:02:50,400 This idea of the fog of unknowability. 76 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:51,833 And so in Putin's regime, 77 00:02:51,833 --> 00:02:53,600 one day I will tell you that the missiles 78 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,033 were shot by Russia. 79 00:02:55,033 --> 00:02:56,733 The next day I'll tell you the very same missiles 80 00:02:56,733 --> 00:02:57,866 were shot by Ukraine. 81 00:02:57,866 --> 00:02:58,766 - Yeah. 82 00:02:58,766 --> 00:03:00,100 - And on the third day, 83 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:01,400 I will tell you they were shot by NATO. 84 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,000 And when people can't make sense of any of it, 85 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,866 they begin to think, well, there really is no truth. 86 00:03:05,866 --> 00:03:07,966 It's all PR, it's all spin. 87 00:03:07,966 --> 00:03:10,666 And so they become exhausted and cynical 88 00:03:10,666 --> 00:03:12,700 and disengaged from politics altogether. 89 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:14,933 It's impossible to know anything, so why bother? 90 00:03:14,933 --> 00:03:16,333 - Which, by the way, this is the point. 91 00:03:16,333 --> 00:03:19,466 This is the plan working exactly as intended, right? 92 00:03:19,466 --> 00:03:20,300 - Yes. 93 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:21,233 - That's what people do. 94 00:03:21,233 --> 00:03:23,233 I mean, I have tended to believe 95 00:03:23,233 --> 00:03:25,800 that this is a relatively new phenomenon. 96 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,066 One way to think about it is, 97 00:03:27,066 --> 00:03:28,366 we're both old enough to remember 98 00:03:28,366 --> 00:03:30,866 when we all agreed on the basics, 99 00:03:30,866 --> 00:03:33,366 and then we diverged from there whatever the issue was, 100 00:03:33,366 --> 00:03:34,533 whatever the subject was, 101 00:03:34,533 --> 00:03:36,000 whatever the political moment was, 102 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,633 we at least agreed on the foundation, 103 00:03:37,633 --> 00:03:39,566 even if we then separated. 104 00:03:39,566 --> 00:03:41,100 Now, we don't even agree on the foundation. 105 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:43,200 But then I remembered Pat Moynihan 106 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,733 saying years and years ago, 107 00:03:44,733 --> 00:03:48,233 before Donald Trump came across our radar screen 108 00:03:48,233 --> 00:03:50,000 as a potential presidential candidate. 109 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,866 "We're all entitled to our own opinions. 110 00:03:51,866 --> 00:03:53,700 We're not entitled to our own facts". 111 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:57,066 He must be spinning in his grave right now, right? 112 00:03:57,066 --> 00:03:58,633 That turns out to be a jump ball. 113 00:03:58,633 --> 00:04:00,100 - Yeah. No, I think that's right. 114 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:02,700 And it's this revisionist history 115 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:04,833 and the idea if you repeat things enough, 116 00:04:04,833 --> 00:04:06,333 people will begin to believe them. 117 00:04:06,333 --> 00:04:09,200 And as you say, it goes even back farther than that. 118 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,066 Hitler wrote about it in "Mein Kampf", 119 00:04:11,066 --> 00:04:12,966 that if you repeat a simple narrative again 120 00:04:12,966 --> 00:04:16,000 and again and again, people begin to believe it is true. 121 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,000 And so this idea that we're hearing now 122 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,366 that January 6th was some sort of peaceful protest 123 00:04:21,366 --> 00:04:24,000 and referring to the perpetrators who are in jail 124 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,266 as hostages, is really getting some momentum. 125 00:04:27,266 --> 00:04:29,466 And it's a really frightening place to be, 126 00:04:29,466 --> 00:04:31,566 to try to look at that and spin that 127 00:04:31,566 --> 00:04:33,033 and revise history in that way. 128 00:04:33,033 --> 00:04:34,733 - One of the best things about this book, 129 00:04:34,733 --> 00:04:36,400 and it's the first time I've seen anybody 130 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,066 really take the time to do this, is to define terms. 131 00:04:40,066 --> 00:04:42,333 To say, this is what disinformation is, 132 00:04:42,333 --> 00:04:44,200 this is what misinformation is, 133 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,433 and how those things are different. 134 00:04:45,433 --> 00:04:46,733 Do that for us. 135 00:04:46,733 --> 00:04:48,500 - Yeah, so in my book, I define disinformation 136 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:50,800 as the deliberate use of lies 137 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,700 to manipulate and deceive people. 138 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:54,733 Misinformation, on the other hand, 139 00:04:54,733 --> 00:04:58,000 is when we hear those things and we believe them. 140 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,066 So it's sort of an unwitting spreader. 141 00:05:00,066 --> 00:05:03,300 And in that way we can all exponentially amplify 142 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:06,333 a false claim even if we're acting in good faith. 143 00:05:06,333 --> 00:05:09,833 - Right, so disinformation is really lies. 144 00:05:09,833 --> 00:05:11,100 So why not call it lies? 145 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:14,400 Why do we use this big fancy 25 cent word 146 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,066 that sounds more academic 147 00:05:16,066 --> 00:05:17,633 and maybe doesn't really give people 148 00:05:17,633 --> 00:05:19,900 the same sense of urgency? 149 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:22,433 - Well, disinformation includes lies, 150 00:05:22,433 --> 00:05:24,100 but it also can include things 151 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:26,400 that are sometimes known as reflexive control. 152 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:27,700 - [Evan] Say about that. 153 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:30,766 - And that is an effort to tell you something, 154 00:05:30,766 --> 00:05:33,033 just to get you to react in a certain way 155 00:05:33,033 --> 00:05:34,566 even if you don't believe it. 156 00:05:34,566 --> 00:05:38,400 So for example, this idea that Taylor Swift is a Psy-Op. 157 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,533 That the whole thing has been orchestrated, 158 00:05:40,533 --> 00:05:43,200 that we're gonna create this famous pop star, 159 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:44,766 and then she's gonna get in a relationship 160 00:05:44,766 --> 00:05:46,900 with the most famous athlete there is 161 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:49,433 and then that team is gonna go to the Super Bowl, 162 00:05:49,433 --> 00:05:51,200 and it's all been orchestrated 163 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,900 because then she's going to endorse Joe Biden. 164 00:05:55,966 --> 00:05:59,566 It's a fabulists kind of theme, 165 00:05:59,566 --> 00:06:04,566 but the idea of it is, it's forcing people to say 166 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:06,900 the last thing now that she can do 167 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:09,433 or wants to do is to endorse Joe Biden. 168 00:06:09,433 --> 00:06:11,133 Because if she does, 169 00:06:11,133 --> 00:06:13,266 it just feeds into this conspiracy narrative. 170 00:06:13,266 --> 00:06:16,833 And so she will be inclined to not endorse Joe Biden. 171 00:06:16,833 --> 00:06:19,700 So in some ways it is beyond just lies, 172 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:21,633 it's an effort to control our behavior. 173 00:06:21,633 --> 00:06:23,800 - Yeah. It's like reverse psychology. 174 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,033 - [Barbara] Exactly. 175 00:06:25,033 --> 00:06:26,000 You tell your kids don't eat your peas 176 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,200 if you hope he eats the peas. 177 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,133 - If you hope your kid eats the peas. 178 00:06:29,433 --> 00:06:32,033 So are conspiracy theories, themselves, 179 00:06:32,033 --> 00:06:33,533 a form of disinformation? 180 00:06:33,533 --> 00:06:34,833 I was trying to sort through 181 00:06:34,833 --> 00:06:36,133 where I would put the conspiracy theories 182 00:06:36,133 --> 00:06:37,800 that have become part of all of our lives. 183 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,500 I mean, common theme on this show 184 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,900 is often the disappearance of news 185 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:43,966 from a lot of communities in this country. 186 00:06:43,966 --> 00:06:46,200 And what pops up in place of that 187 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,900 is often disinformation and conspiracy theories 188 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:50,466 and that tends to drive behavior. 189 00:06:50,466 --> 00:06:53,300 So are conspiracy theories an outgrowth of disinformation? 190 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:54,633 - Yeah. I think it's part of it. 191 00:06:54,633 --> 00:06:56,000 I think that there are people 192 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,300 who will push a conspiracy theory in an effort 193 00:06:58,300 --> 00:06:59,600 to either mess with people 194 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,000 or advance a political or personal agenda. 195 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,733 And it is a way of manipulating us, too. 196 00:07:04,733 --> 00:07:06,233 I have a chapter in the book 197 00:07:06,233 --> 00:07:09,000 about sort of the psychology of why all of this works. 198 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,566 And we're kind of wired to believe conspiracies. 199 00:07:12,566 --> 00:07:14,366 Right? Some people believe certain things. 200 00:07:14,366 --> 00:07:15,900 And I happen to know that Elvis 201 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:17,533 is alive in Kalamazoo, Michigan, 202 00:07:17,533 --> 00:07:18,366 in case anyone was wondering. 203 00:07:18,366 --> 00:07:19,200 (audience laughing) 204 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,100 - By the way. 205 00:07:20,100 --> 00:07:20,866 - By the way, just so you. 206 00:07:20,866 --> 00:07:21,700 - Just between us. 207 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:22,800 (audience laughing) 208 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,600 - But we are wired to form patterns 209 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,233 based on our observations. 210 00:07:26,233 --> 00:07:28,166 It's a matter of self-preservation. 211 00:07:28,166 --> 00:07:31,066 If we see dark clouds, we say, "I've seen that before, 212 00:07:31,066 --> 00:07:32,600 that means a storm's coming". 213 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:33,533 - Right. 214 00:07:33,533 --> 00:07:34,766 - "I'm gonna take precautions." 215 00:07:34,766 --> 00:07:36,700 But then there are those who really push us 216 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:39,366 and stoke that fear to make us believe 217 00:07:39,366 --> 00:07:41,733 something really more calamitous is coming. 218 00:07:41,733 --> 00:07:44,766 And so things like the COVID vaccine 219 00:07:44,766 --> 00:07:46,633 causes us to become magnetic 220 00:07:46,633 --> 00:07:48,333 or some of these other things. 221 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:50,133 - Or that there are gonna be chips in our heads. 222 00:07:50,133 --> 00:07:53,266 And if that's ultimately the goal of giving us the vaccine 223 00:07:53,266 --> 00:07:54,700 is really so that we have, 224 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:56,733 we're able to be tracked by Jeff Bezos. 225 00:07:56,733 --> 00:07:58,233 - Yeah. 226 00:07:58,233 --> 00:08:00,100 And you know, there's certainly like a little bit of basis 227 00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:02,300 for that, I mean, we have the Tuskegee experiments 228 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:04,300 that might cause people to be suspicious 229 00:08:04,300 --> 00:08:06,133 and hesitant about vaccines, 230 00:08:06,133 --> 00:08:08,666 but rather than trying to assure people 231 00:08:08,666 --> 00:08:10,366 that this is in the best interest of public health, 232 00:08:10,366 --> 00:08:13,133 there are those driving those conspiracy theories, 233 00:08:13,133 --> 00:08:15,566 knowing that people may be susceptible to them 234 00:08:15,566 --> 00:08:17,933 and trying to manipulate us into believing these things. 235 00:08:17,933 --> 00:08:20,000 - And there are, in fact, back to this idea of the lack 236 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,933 of news in a lot of the country, there are communities 237 00:08:21,933 --> 00:08:23,666 that are particularly susceptible to this. 238 00:08:23,666 --> 00:08:25,966 We know communities of color during the pandemic, 239 00:08:25,966 --> 00:08:28,800 here in Texas, when the electric grid collapsed, 240 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,666 there was rampant misinformation in specific communities 241 00:08:32,666 --> 00:08:34,933 that caused people to do or not do things 242 00:08:34,933 --> 00:08:36,333 and really put lives at risk. 243 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:39,266 And in poor communities, regardless of race, 244 00:08:39,266 --> 00:08:40,800 there's often a susceptibility 245 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,866 because there is no good information to push out the bad. 246 00:08:43,866 --> 00:08:46,266 - And it also makes me think of one other thing 247 00:08:46,266 --> 00:08:49,166 that we are struggling with in society today, 248 00:08:49,166 --> 00:08:52,000 which is the decline of local journalism. 249 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,366 Which is why it's so important 250 00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:55,166 that we have organizations like "The Texas Tribune" 251 00:08:55,166 --> 00:08:57,300 and others to try to fill those gaps. 252 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,100 But I think it was Tip O'Neill who said, 253 00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:01,766 "All politics is local". 254 00:09:01,766 --> 00:09:04,000 But it seems that today all politics is national. 255 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,233 - Right. 256 00:09:05,233 --> 00:09:06,933 - We're all just reading the big headlines 257 00:09:06,933 --> 00:09:09,266 and we're all talking about the immigration issues 258 00:09:09,266 --> 00:09:12,333 at the border or what's going on at the Supreme Court 259 00:09:12,333 --> 00:09:14,700 and not so much what's going on in our local communities. 260 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:19,066 And that's where we can build community together 261 00:09:19,066 --> 00:09:21,533 if we know what's going on, if we can talk to each other, 262 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:23,266 that's where we can really learn from each other, 263 00:09:23,266 --> 00:09:25,633 but instead we've seen the demise 264 00:09:25,633 --> 00:09:27,333 of those local news outlets. 265 00:09:27,333 --> 00:09:29,566 And so instead we're fighting with each other 266 00:09:29,566 --> 00:09:32,833 about these big issues and feeling like we have no control 267 00:09:32,833 --> 00:09:34,233 over our own destinies. 268 00:09:34,233 --> 00:09:35,700 - And don't necessarily trust the people telling us, 269 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:39,500 unlike the people who are locally providing us news 270 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:41,600 where we know them, often it's an intimate relationship. 271 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,533 It's a very different, it's a very different deal. 272 00:09:43,533 --> 00:09:46,700 The consequences of disinformation spreading 273 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:49,400 around the country, it seems to me are at least a couple. 274 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,000 First thing, maybe most obviously, 275 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,633 is that it motivates people to act 276 00:09:53,633 --> 00:09:56,200 on the basis of things that are not true. 277 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,033 Like people take action on that basis. 278 00:09:58,033 --> 00:10:01,200 That's like just sort of basic thing. 279 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,466 But you talk about January 6th in this book, 280 00:10:03,466 --> 00:10:05,100 you start the book with January 6th, 281 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:06,466 you've mentioned it today. 282 00:10:06,466 --> 00:10:09,366 Spurring people to violent action on the basis 283 00:10:09,366 --> 00:10:12,600 of disinformation, that is also legitimately the kind 284 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,633 of consequence that we have to be on the lookout for. 285 00:10:14,633 --> 00:10:15,866 - Yes. 286 00:10:15,866 --> 00:10:17,166 And in fact that's, one of my worries 287 00:10:17,166 --> 00:10:18,900 as a national security prosecutor and professor 288 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:21,033 is the effect this is having on public safety. 289 00:10:21,033 --> 00:10:24,700 And so when you have people undermining public confidence 290 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:25,966 in law enforcement 291 00:10:25,966 --> 00:10:28,300 or undermining confidence in the courts, 292 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:32,400 or suggesting that our elections have been defrauded, 293 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,700 people get angry, understandably. 294 00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:36,800 And so there will be somebody, 295 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,300 you may not know who or when or why, 296 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:41,866 but somebody is going to be spurred to action 297 00:10:41,866 --> 00:10:44,400 and is gonna decide to take the law into their own hands. 298 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:45,900 And so I think vigilante violence 299 00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:47,400 is something we can expect. 300 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,166 In my home state of Michigan, 301 00:10:49,166 --> 00:10:50,933 there was a plot to kidnap our governor. 302 00:10:50,933 --> 00:10:52,433 - Governor Whitmer. That's right. 303 00:10:52,433 --> 00:10:55,366 - When she imposed lockdown orders during COVID-19, 304 00:10:55,366 --> 00:10:57,766 people who had been told it was a hoax and a fraud 305 00:10:57,766 --> 00:10:59,766 and it would end by Easter and all these other things 306 00:10:59,766 --> 00:11:02,233 were very angry that she had shut down businesses 307 00:11:02,233 --> 00:11:03,666 in our state. 308 00:11:03,666 --> 00:11:05,533 And so they plotted to kidnap her and put her on trial 309 00:11:05,533 --> 00:11:07,466 and engage in a citizen's arrest. 310 00:11:07,466 --> 00:11:10,333 The man who broke into Nancy Pelosi's home 311 00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:12,700 and hit her husband in the head with a hammer, 312 00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:14,266 is somebody who was angered 313 00:11:14,266 --> 00:11:16,200 and thought he needed to take the law into his own hands. 314 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,300 And then of course, the January 6th attackers 315 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:20,133 were so stoked by their anger that they thought 316 00:11:20,133 --> 00:11:21,900 their democracy was being stolen, 317 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:24,533 that they thought they had to use force, 318 00:11:24,533 --> 00:11:27,300 brute force, to stop that certification. 319 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:29,066 And so this disinformation gives people 320 00:11:29,066 --> 00:11:31,233 not just license to engage in violence, 321 00:11:31,233 --> 00:11:33,766 but almost compels them to engage in violence. 322 00:11:33,766 --> 00:11:35,633 The idea that the ends justify the means 323 00:11:35,633 --> 00:11:38,233 because our country has spun so out of control. 324 00:11:38,233 --> 00:11:40,933 - So of course, we ideally, in the legal system, 325 00:11:40,933 --> 00:11:44,633 hold the people who take that violent action accountable. 326 00:11:44,633 --> 00:11:46,133 There've been how many number of people 327 00:11:46,133 --> 00:11:47,500 associated with January 6th 328 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:51,033 who have now been arrested and incarcerated. 329 00:11:51,033 --> 00:11:52,466 Some of the other cases you mentioned, 330 00:11:52,466 --> 00:11:54,900 the gentleman who attacked Mr. Pelosi, 331 00:11:57,133 --> 00:11:58,933 but how about the people 332 00:11:58,933 --> 00:12:01,600 who spread the disinformation to begin with? 333 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,600 Where are the consequences for that? 334 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,766 I guess that, in part, is what the series of cases 335 00:12:06,766 --> 00:12:09,833 around the former president are about? 336 00:12:09,833 --> 00:12:10,933 - Yeah. 337 00:12:10,933 --> 00:12:12,833 - Is there a legal case to be made 338 00:12:12,833 --> 00:12:15,133 against someone who knowingly, 339 00:12:15,133 --> 00:12:17,600 knowingly spreads disinformation? 340 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,966 - Yeah, so what's challenging about it, 341 00:12:18,966 --> 00:12:20,700 and of course we do have several indictments. 342 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:22,633 The one that I think is the most consequential 343 00:12:22,633 --> 00:12:24,966 is the federal election interference case. 344 00:12:24,966 --> 00:12:26,300 - Yeah. 345 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:27,633 - And if Donald Trump is elected president, 346 00:12:27,633 --> 00:12:30,666 then I think he likely will dismiss the case 347 00:12:30,666 --> 00:12:32,066 and prevent it from going to trial. 348 00:12:32,066 --> 00:12:33,700 So we need a couple things to happen. 349 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,166 One is either that the case goes to trial 350 00:12:35,166 --> 00:12:36,500 before the election 351 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:37,866 or Donald Trump is defeated in the election. 352 00:12:37,866 --> 00:12:39,600 - But you believe as someone who understands 353 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,566 how the law works, that there is at least the theory 354 00:12:42,566 --> 00:12:43,866 of a legal case here 355 00:12:43,866 --> 00:12:45,533 against someone who spreads disinformation 356 00:12:45,533 --> 00:12:49,233 for the purpose of inspiring that kind of violent action 357 00:12:49,233 --> 00:12:50,066 that takes place. 358 00:12:50,066 --> 00:12:51,266 - I absolutely do. 359 00:12:51,266 --> 00:12:53,566 Even before that indictment was filed, 360 00:12:53,566 --> 00:12:56,033 I wrote a piece in the blog called "Just Security" 361 00:12:56,033 --> 00:12:58,766 arguing for the exact theory that was charged. 362 00:12:58,766 --> 00:13:00,400 Not that I'm any mind reader, 363 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,533 but it's actually a very common charge that prosecutors use, 364 00:13:04,533 --> 00:13:07,300 which is conspiracy to defraud the United States. 365 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:09,933 And that is anyone who uses fraud to interfere 366 00:13:09,933 --> 00:13:11,233 with the proper functioning 367 00:13:11,233 --> 00:13:13,233 of the administration of a government act. 368 00:13:13,233 --> 00:13:15,400 So right here, the proper administration 369 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,600 of the peaceful transfer of presidential power 370 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,000 was something that was interfered with by fraud. 371 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,933 And so, to me, that seems like an obvious charge. 372 00:13:22,933 --> 00:13:27,866 Of course, there's a lot of legal challenges 373 00:13:27,866 --> 00:13:30,166 in terms of obtaining a conviction 374 00:13:30,166 --> 00:13:31,833 because our system is designed 375 00:13:31,833 --> 00:13:34,766 in a way that makes it better that 10 guilty people go free 376 00:13:34,766 --> 00:13:36,433 than that one innocent person be convicted 377 00:13:36,433 --> 00:13:37,733 and so we have a lot of due process. 378 00:13:37,733 --> 00:13:38,666 - But there's a path, there's a path forward. 379 00:13:38,666 --> 00:13:40,166 - Absolutely a path to that. 380 00:13:40,166 --> 00:13:43,733 So unless we see abuse of power by the next president, 381 00:13:43,733 --> 00:13:45,766 I think that case will come to trial. 382 00:13:45,766 --> 00:13:47,966 And Donald Trump and others will get a fair trial, 383 00:13:47,966 --> 00:13:50,266 and the people will get to see that evidence 384 00:13:50,266 --> 00:13:52,800 as we saw during the January 6th hearings 385 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,333 that the Congress put forth. 386 00:13:54,333 --> 00:13:56,100 - Well, I'm glad you bring up the January 6th hearings, 387 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:57,833 because I wanna talk about what happens 388 00:13:57,833 --> 00:13:59,666 when we call out disinformation. 389 00:13:59,666 --> 00:14:02,900 There are a series of consequences of disinformation 390 00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:04,266 being out in the bloodstream, 391 00:14:04,266 --> 00:14:06,100 and then there are consequences of calling it out. 392 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:08,900 One of the consequences for, these days, 393 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:13,766 Republicans calling out disinformation by other Republicans, 394 00:14:13,766 --> 00:14:15,533 is they lose elections 395 00:14:15,533 --> 00:14:17,066 or they're put in a position 396 00:14:17,066 --> 00:14:20,100 of having to retire from the office that they hold 397 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:25,100 because the pressure and the abuse of them is so great. 398 00:14:26,633 --> 00:14:29,166 Liz Cheney, speaking of those hearings, is a great example. 399 00:14:29,166 --> 00:14:30,566 Five minutes ago you would've thought 400 00:14:30,566 --> 00:14:32,933 most conservative person in the entire world, right? 401 00:14:32,933 --> 00:14:34,833 Daughter of the former Vice President, 402 00:14:36,033 --> 00:14:39,400 voted the right way on every other issue 403 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,466 with the people who now point fingers at her 404 00:14:42,466 --> 00:14:43,966 except for the one thing. 405 00:14:43,966 --> 00:14:45,500 - Yeah. 406 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,900 - That caused her to have a primary opponent in Wyoming, 407 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,300 supported by the former president 408 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:53,600 and she was soundly defeated in her reelection. 409 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,500 This maybe dis-incentivizes some people. 410 00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:57,800 - Oh yeah. 411 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,033 - I mean, you've gotta put career over country. 412 00:14:59,033 --> 00:15:00,366 - Yeah, absolutely. 413 00:15:00,366 --> 00:15:02,166 Well, I think she's a great example 414 00:15:03,633 --> 00:15:06,266 and this demonstrates the point between there's a difference 415 00:15:06,266 --> 00:15:09,000 between having a conservative political viewpoint 416 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,433 as Liz Cheney does, 417 00:15:10,433 --> 00:15:14,233 and having political integrity, which she also has. 418 00:15:14,233 --> 00:15:16,033 And those are two very different things. 419 00:15:16,033 --> 00:15:19,166 It, to me, is shocking that so few people 420 00:15:19,166 --> 00:15:23,066 have followed the path of Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger. 421 00:15:23,066 --> 00:15:24,500 - Adam Kinzinger is an example of somebody 422 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:26,533 who wasn't defeated, but who decided not to run. 423 00:15:26,533 --> 00:15:29,966 - Yeah, he realized it was an unworkable choice 424 00:15:29,966 --> 00:15:32,733 to be able to continue serving in this capacity. 425 00:15:32,733 --> 00:15:35,833 And yet there's so many who have gone along 426 00:15:35,833 --> 00:15:38,966 with the disinformation and the idea of a stolen election. 427 00:15:38,966 --> 00:15:40,966 I mean Donald Trump is not the only person 428 00:15:40,966 --> 00:15:43,633 referring to January 6th defendants as hostages. 429 00:15:43,633 --> 00:15:45,000 - Right. 430 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,500 - Elise Stefanik, Congresswoman from New York, 431 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:49,766 is someone who has really flipped the way she governs 432 00:15:49,766 --> 00:15:52,866 in what I see as just naked careerism. 433 00:15:52,866 --> 00:15:55,833 I am willing to say things that are not true 434 00:15:55,833 --> 00:15:58,100 just to advance my own career. 435 00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,266 Marjorie Taylor Greene does the same thing. 436 00:16:00,266 --> 00:16:03,000 We had Senator Ted Cruz from here in Texas, 437 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,966 and Senator Josh Hawley in Missouri, 438 00:16:05,966 --> 00:16:09,133 Ivy League-educated lawyers who most certainly knew better, 439 00:16:09,133 --> 00:16:12,600 but also refused to certify the election on January 6th, 440 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,800 for the reason that some people believed 441 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,800 that the election was fraudulent. 442 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,333 - Well, that was then. 443 00:16:18,333 --> 00:16:19,666 And of course, here we are sitting here four years later 444 00:16:19,666 --> 00:16:22,933 and the polls show that a third of the public 445 00:16:22,933 --> 00:16:26,666 and two thirds of Republicans still, despite any evidence, 446 00:16:26,666 --> 00:16:28,133 believe that the election was stolen. 447 00:16:28,133 --> 00:16:29,700 That disinformation campaign 448 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:32,733 on that one subject is continuing to be successful. 449 00:16:32,733 --> 00:16:34,266 - Yeah. 450 00:16:34,266 --> 00:16:36,500 I think one of the things that is so challenging for us 451 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:39,900 in our times is we have such information overload, 452 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:42,000 with the ability to, who would've thought 453 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,400 we have information at our fingertips, 454 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,400 that we would be less informed today 455 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,400 than maybe we were a few decades ago. 456 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,733 But there's so much out there that I think we now 457 00:16:51,733 --> 00:16:54,933 will cede to proxies what to think, 458 00:16:54,933 --> 00:16:56,100 to tell us what to think, 459 00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:58,266 so we look for credible voices out there 460 00:16:58,266 --> 00:17:00,533 to help us navigate the landscape, 461 00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:02,200 because there's just so much information. 462 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,500 And then you have people 463 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:06,366 putting out blatantly false things online, 464 00:17:06,366 --> 00:17:07,766 some of whom are even doing it 465 00:17:07,766 --> 00:17:10,500 under a false persona and we tend to believe it. 466 00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:13,400 Some of the things that are in "The Mueller Report", 467 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,900 there were accounts run by Russian operatives. 468 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:17,500 - Right. 469 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:19,100 - With names like Blacktivist and United Muslims of America 470 00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:21,466 and Heart of Texas and then on the eve of the election, 471 00:17:21,466 --> 00:17:22,866 Blacktivist, for example, 472 00:17:22,866 --> 00:17:25,500 says "Hillary Clinton never did anything for us 473 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:29,033 and so we should make sure she knows 474 00:17:29,033 --> 00:17:31,000 that she should not take us for granted. 475 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,266 We can send her a message by not showing up 476 00:17:33,266 --> 00:17:34,400 to vote for her." 477 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,966 - You make the point in this book 478 00:17:35,966 --> 00:17:38,100 that one of the problems going forward with disinformation 479 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:41,333 is that any guardrails that ever existed on social media 480 00:17:41,333 --> 00:17:44,333 to possibly prevent this kind of disinformation 481 00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:48,366 have largely been obliterated by new ownership. 482 00:17:49,666 --> 00:17:53,000 And sort of new policies for what we're permitting 483 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,833 to get online, I mean, that's not helping. 484 00:17:55,833 --> 00:17:58,833 - No, you mentioned earlier when we were backstage, 485 00:17:58,833 --> 00:18:00,633 this piece in "The New York Times" today. 486 00:18:00,633 --> 00:18:01,866 - Today. 487 00:18:01,866 --> 00:18:04,366 - That talks about this idea of any effort 488 00:18:04,366 --> 00:18:08,166 to regulate social media is called censorship. 489 00:18:08,166 --> 00:18:09,966 - Or to combat disinformation, right? 490 00:18:09,966 --> 00:18:13,266 You are censoring conservatives if you do that. 491 00:18:13,266 --> 00:18:15,733 - Yeah and it's an attractive argument 492 00:18:15,733 --> 00:18:18,033 because people on the left and on the right, 493 00:18:18,033 --> 00:18:19,433 and everybody in between, 494 00:18:19,433 --> 00:18:21,366 revere our First Amendment right to free speech, 495 00:18:21,366 --> 00:18:23,466 as do I, as I'm sure you do as well. 496 00:18:23,466 --> 00:18:25,600 And so when you throw out the word censorship, 497 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,166 everybody recoils in horror like, 498 00:18:27,166 --> 00:18:29,966 "Oh no, I don't wanna be a censor, I can't be a censor". 499 00:18:29,966 --> 00:18:32,933 But of course anybody who understands the constitution 500 00:18:32,933 --> 00:18:35,333 knows that the First Amendment rights of free speech 501 00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:38,400 and free press, like every other right in the Constitution, 502 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,633 is not absolute. 503 00:18:39,633 --> 00:18:41,000 - Yep. 504 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,600 - They may be regulated by time, place and manner. 505 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,133 You know the old adage, you can't yell "Fire" 506 00:18:45,133 --> 00:18:47,700 in a crowded theater or a crowded studio like this one. 507 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:49,033 - Right. 508 00:18:49,033 --> 00:18:52,066 - Because you have to read the Constitution, 509 00:18:52,066 --> 00:18:54,600 not in a vacuum, but in coordination 510 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,266 with all the other provisions of the Constitution 511 00:18:56,266 --> 00:18:58,066 and so it's not a suicide pact. 512 00:18:58,066 --> 00:19:01,866 We have a right to reasonable regulation 513 00:19:01,866 --> 00:19:04,066 as long as there's a compelling governmental interest 514 00:19:04,066 --> 00:19:06,566 that is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. 515 00:19:06,566 --> 00:19:09,800 And so things on social media that, for example, 516 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,300 take down things that are dangerous to public safety, 517 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,133 like quack cures for COVID, is in the public interest 518 00:19:16,133 --> 00:19:18,900 to take that down or the idea that an election was stolen 519 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:20,966 without any evidence. 520 00:19:20,966 --> 00:19:22,366 How do you fix that? 521 00:19:22,366 --> 00:19:24,800 It's challenging because sometimes disinformation online 522 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,000 has a grain of truth, but is instead misleading. 523 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,600 But I still think there are ways to do that 524 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,366 by pointing people to accurate information 525 00:19:32,366 --> 00:19:35,200 or regulating the algorithms that are designed 526 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,300 to generate outrage as opposed to providing facts. 527 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,966 - So is the media business partly responsible for this? 528 00:19:40,966 --> 00:19:43,166 I mean, I appreciate what you said about the undermining 529 00:19:43,166 --> 00:19:45,033 of faith and confidence in institutions, 530 00:19:45,033 --> 00:19:47,166 including the press, but also courts and so on. 531 00:19:47,166 --> 00:19:49,033 That's partly what's going on here. 532 00:19:49,033 --> 00:19:51,333 Partly we have a media literacy problem in this country. 533 00:19:51,333 --> 00:19:52,233 - Yes. 534 00:19:52,233 --> 00:19:53,533 - The inability of people 535 00:19:53,533 --> 00:19:54,966 to distinguish good information from bad. 536 00:19:54,966 --> 00:19:57,766 But I wanna self-flagellate here and say that we, 537 00:19:57,766 --> 00:19:59,600 in the media business, over the last four years, 538 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,100 particularly, did not do a good enough job 539 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:05,766 of calling BS when BS needed to be called, 540 00:20:05,766 --> 00:20:08,000 on pushing back against this stuff. 541 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,333 There tended to be more of a, 542 00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:10,833 "Well, that's another point of view, 543 00:20:10,833 --> 00:20:14,033 so we have to give it airtime" or put it in our pages. 544 00:20:14,033 --> 00:20:14,900 Would you agree with that? 545 00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:16,266 - I do. 546 00:20:16,266 --> 00:20:18,600 And with some exceptions, I don't fault the media. 547 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,900 I think that they are relying on years of training 548 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,333 and experience to tell both sides of a story. 549 00:20:24,333 --> 00:20:27,300 But both sides of a story rely on both sides 550 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:28,700 coming to the table in good faith. 551 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:29,966 - Good faith and with facts. 552 00:20:29,966 --> 00:20:31,300 - Yeah. Right? 553 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:32,400 And so people have different views of things, 554 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:33,633 but we all agree on the same facts. 555 00:20:33,633 --> 00:20:35,600 And so then along comes Donald Trump, 556 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,633 in the campaign starting maybe 2015 557 00:20:37,633 --> 00:20:40,333 and starts saying things that are blatantly untrue. 558 00:20:40,333 --> 00:20:44,033 And the media is very reluctant to use the word lie. 559 00:20:44,033 --> 00:20:45,933 They will just say, "Here's what he said", 560 00:20:45,933 --> 00:20:47,733 and then maybe they will point out 561 00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:50,266 some other facts that allow a reader. 562 00:20:50,266 --> 00:20:52,033 - And sometimes in saying what he said, 563 00:20:52,033 --> 00:20:54,633 which was not true, they're ultimately amplifying it. 564 00:20:54,633 --> 00:20:55,466 - Absolutely. 565 00:20:55,466 --> 00:20:57,033 - Right? - Yes. 566 00:20:57,033 --> 00:21:01,200 And so, we know in the days leading up to the 2016 election, 567 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,900 news stories all about Hillary Clinton's emails 568 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:08,833 occupied the headlines greater than any other issue 569 00:21:08,833 --> 00:21:11,100 that was being discussed at the time. 570 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:14,300 When Nancy Pelosi's husband was attacked 571 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:17,400 by this hammer-wielding intruder, 572 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,533 there were jokes that Donald Trump Jr posted 573 00:21:20,533 --> 00:21:23,666 suggesting, with zero facts, a nefarious cause 574 00:21:23,666 --> 00:21:25,666 based on a relationship that didn't exist 575 00:21:25,666 --> 00:21:28,033 that actually contributed to that attack. 576 00:21:28,033 --> 00:21:29,766 The media starts reporting that. 577 00:21:29,766 --> 00:21:34,266 And so people are not disciplined enough to read the details 578 00:21:34,266 --> 00:21:38,366 and say, "Well, he just said that and it's not true". 579 00:21:38,366 --> 00:21:39,900 They just read the substance of it. 580 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:41,533 And in the back of their head is, 581 00:21:41,533 --> 00:21:42,900 "Well, I heard this thing." 582 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:43,733 - It gives legitimacy to it. 583 00:21:43,733 --> 00:21:44,733 - It does. 584 00:21:44,733 --> 00:21:46,033 And so I think that the press 585 00:21:46,033 --> 00:21:48,833 needs to avoid being manipulated and used 586 00:21:48,833 --> 00:21:51,300 to amplify false claims 587 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:52,866 and needs to stand down when there are. 588 00:21:52,866 --> 00:21:54,300 Now on the other hand, 589 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:56,233 it is tricky to figure out how to get this right 590 00:21:56,233 --> 00:21:58,433 because right now we've got Donald Trump out there 591 00:21:58,433 --> 00:22:00,800 at all these rallies saying some really outrageous things. 592 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,600 - I mean, just can't even believe it. 593 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,400 - And if you don't cover it, 594 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,100 then people won't know about the outrage. 595 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,600 Like, a moment of honor for the hostages 596 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,633 who are still being held before the national anthem, 597 00:22:12,633 --> 00:22:13,933 referring to. 598 00:22:13,933 --> 00:22:15,933 - Referring to January 6th. - January 6th. 599 00:22:15,933 --> 00:22:17,433 Talking about a blood bath 600 00:22:17,433 --> 00:22:19,233 as he's discussing the auto industry. 601 00:22:19,233 --> 00:22:22,333 And so people need to know these things. 602 00:22:22,333 --> 00:22:26,533 And so I think we'll come to a place of equilibrium, I hope, 603 00:22:26,533 --> 00:22:29,066 where the press does report on what's being said, 604 00:22:29,066 --> 00:22:31,900 but also provides some real time fact checking. 605 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:33,466 But I think it's tricky to do. 606 00:22:33,466 --> 00:22:36,133 I know that when Donald Trump appeared at a CNN Town Hall, 607 00:22:37,533 --> 00:22:40,000 he speaks in such word salad 608 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,666 that it can be really challenging 609 00:22:41,666 --> 00:22:43,833 to fact check in real time. 610 00:22:43,833 --> 00:22:45,300 But I imagine a day, Evan, 611 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:47,000 when it looks something like this, 612 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,866 someone's interviewing him or he's talking 613 00:22:48,866 --> 00:22:50,633 and it's like sports commentary, right? 614 00:22:50,633 --> 00:22:52,866 Where somebody says, "Okay, now in my experience 615 00:22:52,866 --> 00:22:54,300 that one right there, that's not true". 616 00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:55,600 Here are the facts and you've got it down there. 617 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,066 So you have to have real time analysis, I think, 618 00:22:58,066 --> 00:23:01,466 to be able to debunk some of the lies that are coming. 619 00:23:01,466 --> 00:23:04,633 - It's something tough to pull off successfully. 620 00:23:04,633 --> 00:23:05,900 So we have a couple minutes left. 621 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:09,066 What is the McQuade plan for fixing all this? 622 00:23:09,066 --> 00:23:10,033 - [Barbara] Yeah. 623 00:23:10,033 --> 00:23:11,433 - Because surely you have one. 624 00:23:11,433 --> 00:23:13,233 - I do, in fact the longest chapter in the book. 625 00:23:13,233 --> 00:23:14,600 - Yeah, see. (audience applauding) 626 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,633 - Thank you. 627 00:23:15,633 --> 00:23:17,000 - Great. 628 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,233 - The longest chapter in the book is on solutions. 629 00:23:18,233 --> 00:23:19,633 Some are government-based solutions 630 00:23:19,633 --> 00:23:21,333 and some are things we can do as individuals. 631 00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:23,400 So things like regulating algorithms 632 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,800 is something we surely can do 633 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,466 that would prevent the generation of outrage, 634 00:23:27,466 --> 00:23:29,400 which is something that's happening online. 635 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,333 Campaign finance reform, that would allow us 636 00:23:31,333 --> 00:23:33,933 to see where this dark money is coming from 637 00:23:33,933 --> 00:23:35,866 just by providing disclosure and transparency. 638 00:23:35,866 --> 00:23:38,700 (audience applauding) 639 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:41,400 Promoting media literacy and Civics education. 640 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,033 Right now we spend 5 cents, 641 00:23:43,033 --> 00:23:44,600 (audience applauding) for Civics, 642 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,000 for every $50 we spend on STEM education in our schools. 643 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,966 And so we need to do better on Civics education. 644 00:23:50,966 --> 00:23:52,566 But here's the part where we all come in. 645 00:23:52,566 --> 00:23:55,000 One, being a citizen in this country 646 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,800 requires the responsibility of being an informed citizen 647 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,233 so that we can cast our votes in an actual factual way. 648 00:24:01,233 --> 00:24:02,633 That's our duty. 649 00:24:02,633 --> 00:24:06,533 But the other is we need to choose truth over tribe. 650 00:24:06,533 --> 00:24:08,733 I think sometimes we have divided ourselves 651 00:24:08,733 --> 00:24:11,000 into tribes of blue team and red team 652 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,766 and we so want our side to be right 653 00:24:13,766 --> 00:24:15,833 that sometimes we're willing to go along 654 00:24:15,833 --> 00:24:17,100 with whatever our side says. 655 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:18,000 - Look past the truth, right? 656 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,833 - Yeah. To win the debate. 657 00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,200 And I think that we need to realize 658 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,533 that real social progress comes from compromise and nuance 659 00:24:25,533 --> 00:24:27,100 and seeing the areas of gray 660 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:29,900 and admitting when we have a point that is weak. 661 00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:32,433 As a prosecutor, I knew that my credibility 662 00:24:32,433 --> 00:24:35,466 depended on occasionally conceding 663 00:24:35,466 --> 00:24:37,066 when there was a weak point, 664 00:24:37,066 --> 00:24:38,933 but pointing out that the facts 665 00:24:38,933 --> 00:24:42,500 that were in favor of a policy were what mattered more. 666 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:43,866 And so we need to recognize that 667 00:24:43,866 --> 00:24:45,533 if we're gonna really solve problems. 668 00:24:45,533 --> 00:24:47,033 - It occurs to me, we have one minute left, 669 00:24:47,033 --> 00:24:49,200 that people are looking at this election 670 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,866 as the point at which we decide 671 00:24:51,866 --> 00:24:54,300 are we going to walk back from the brink or not. 672 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:56,933 The reality is that regardless of the outcome 673 00:24:56,933 --> 00:24:59,233 of this election, we're still gonna have this problem. 674 00:24:59,233 --> 00:25:00,900 - Sure. 675 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:02,566 - Right, this is not about the outcome of this one election. 676 00:25:02,566 --> 00:25:04,133 This is a problem that's gonna be with us. 677 00:25:04,133 --> 00:25:05,600 - I think that's right. 678 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,100 And you need only look at the 2020 election, right? 679 00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:09,600 I know we said all the same things leading up to that. 680 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,333 And in fact, for the past four years, 681 00:25:11,333 --> 00:25:14,133 we've seen the same kind of attack on information. 682 00:25:14,133 --> 00:25:17,700 I think as we continue to work through social media, 683 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:20,033 we're kind of in the teenage years of social media, 684 00:25:20,033 --> 00:25:21,433 we're still figuring it out. 685 00:25:21,433 --> 00:25:24,000 And unless we come up with real regulation there 686 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,600 and a real commitment to truth, 687 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,200 we are gonna find ourselves still in this situation. 688 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,766 But I think we can do those things. 689 00:25:29,766 --> 00:25:32,700 We can come up with reasonable regulations for social media 690 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,866 and I hope that if people are willing 691 00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:37,766 to recognize these tactics of disinformation, 692 00:25:37,766 --> 00:25:39,033 we can defeat them together. 693 00:25:39,033 --> 00:25:41,400 - I'm gonna let us end on an upbeat note. 694 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:42,766 That's it. 695 00:25:42,766 --> 00:25:44,100 Barbara McQuade, thank you so much for being here. 696 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:45,300 Great to be with you. Thank you. 697 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:48,300 (audience cheering and applauding) 698 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:50,766 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 699 00:25:50,766 --> 00:25:54,500 Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard 700 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:56,500 to find invitations to interviews, 701 00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:58,800 Q&As with our audience and guests 702 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,033 and an archive of past episodes. 703 00:26:01,033 --> 00:26:03,266 - I do think this divide and conquer strategy 704 00:26:03,266 --> 00:26:06,000 is an effort to separate working class white people 705 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,500 from working class other people by othering them 706 00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:11,633 and keeping working class white people in the fold. 707 00:26:11,633 --> 00:26:16,633 Because if but for this disinformation about the economy 708 00:26:17,933 --> 00:26:19,233 and what's really in your financial best interest, 709 00:26:19,233 --> 00:26:21,900 those groups would all naturally band together 710 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,366 and defeat corporate interests. 711 00:26:24,366 --> 00:26:26,500 - [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" 712 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:29,866 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 713 00:26:29,866 --> 00:26:32,866 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 714 00:26:32,866 --> 00:26:37,133 Claire and Carl Stuart and by Christine and Philip Dial. 715 00:26:38,766 --> 00:26:41,366 (bright tones)