1 00:00:03,666 --> 00:00:08,500 By any measure, we live in a free but unequal society. 2 00:00:08,566 --> 00:00:12,500 By accident or birth, young people grow up with different 3 00:00:12,566 --> 00:00:16,500 opportunities, including unequal access to food, 4 00:00:16,566 --> 00:00:19,200 housing, education, and jobs. 5 00:00:19,566 --> 00:00:22,833 This can lead to very specific kinds of problems, 6 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,900 including children getting funneled into a system of 7 00:00:25,966 --> 00:00:30,400 punishment and incarceration for which they are not prepared 8 00:00:30,466 --> 00:00:32,500 and which is not prepared for them. 9 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:36,133 The result is futures shut down, 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,166 opportunities extinguish forever. 11 00:00:39,933 --> 00:00:41,966 What would you want for your child? 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,133 We can agree that when young people cause harm, 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,900 there ought to be consequences. 14 00:00:47,966 --> 00:00:51,700 And we can agree that children should not be locked up in 15 00:00:51,766 --> 00:00:55,800 adult prisons, but that happens far too often. 16 00:00:56,333 --> 00:00:59,600 When it does, what is the way back? 17 00:01:11,566 --> 00:01:15,433 Returning Citizens is made possible by 18 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:49,466 the United Way, fostering the success of those who, 19 00:01:49,533 --> 00:01:52,033 as they return to our neighborhoods, 20 00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:54,966 remain a largely untapped resource, 21 00:01:55,033 --> 00:01:57,200 the formerly incarcerated. 22 00:01:57,266 --> 00:02:01,400 Waterman II Fund of the Philadelphia Foundation at the 23 00:02:01,466 --> 00:02:06,433 recommendation of David Haas, the Independence Foundation. 24 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,966 The founders of the Youth Sentencing & Reentry Project, 25 00:02:17,033 --> 00:02:21,066 Lauren Fine, and Joanna Visser-Adjoian have devoted 26 00:02:21,133 --> 00:02:23,666 their legal careers to fighting for the rights 27 00:02:23,733 --> 00:02:26,700 and dignity of young people in trouble. 28 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:30,766 They are dedicated to the principle that no child should be 29 00:02:30,833 --> 00:02:34,366 left alone to face a criminal legal system 30 00:02:34,433 --> 00:02:36,800 that is not designed for kids. 31 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,433 Uh, tell us about your work. 32 00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:44,000 Lauren, how did you come to be one of the co-founders of this project? 33 00:02:44,066 --> 00:02:47,566 We simply saw too many things that we couldn't look away from. 34 00:02:47,633 --> 00:02:49,833 Um, I was working at another nonprofit, 35 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:53,700 uh, legal center in the city, and it just became very clear 36 00:02:53,766 --> 00:02:57,300 that there was both a racial divide and a socioeconomic 37 00:02:57,366 --> 00:03:00,933 divide as far as how young people were treated in our system. 38 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,900 Um, as a white woman sitting in the back of the courtroom 39 00:03:03,966 --> 00:03:06,900 seeing that most of the folks with the power look like me 40 00:03:06,966 --> 00:03:10,000 and we were throwing away, uh, children. 41 00:03:10,066 --> 00:03:13,033 And you said you saw things you couldn't look away from. 42 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:14,666 What were some of those things? 43 00:03:14,733 --> 00:03:17,766 Um, I had a, a young person who, 44 00:03:17,833 --> 00:03:21,266 um, stole a toothbrush from Walgreens while he was homeless, 45 00:03:21,333 --> 00:03:23,566 and he was offered a, 46 00:03:23,633 --> 00:03:27,166 um, a program for first, first time offenders. 47 00:03:27,233 --> 00:03:29,466 Um, but you had to pay to get into that program. 48 00:03:29,533 --> 00:03:32,366 And he, the absurdity of someone who had to steal a 49 00:03:32,433 --> 00:03:35,400 toothbrush, um, which is a very clear survival crime, 50 00:03:35,466 --> 00:03:38,933 um, that he could buy his way into some semblance of 51 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,200 justice, was, um, simply un, you know, 52 00:03:42,266 --> 00:03:43,933 unspeakably cruel to me. 53 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,200 So when children cause harm, should there be consequences? 54 00:03:50,266 --> 00:03:51,433 Absolutely. 55 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:54,633 Um, we all understand that as folks who've been children, 56 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:57,300 um, and you know, some of us who are parents as well. 57 00:03:57,366 --> 00:03:58,766 There, there have to be consequences. 58 00:03:58,833 --> 00:04:01,033 But there's, there's consequences to those 59 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:04,000 consequences and there's a lot of different choices that we 60 00:04:04,066 --> 00:04:06,300 can make as community members, um, 61 00:04:06,366 --> 00:04:08,300 and as actors in the legal system 62 00:04:08,366 --> 00:04:10,933 that have less harmful consequences. 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,066 Yeah. 64 00:04:12,133 --> 00:04:15,533 And when we think about people who are experts in the 65 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,966 criminal legal system, uh, you think that children who are 66 00:04:20,033 --> 00:04:23,166 involved in the system are, are among those experts? 67 00:04:23,233 --> 00:04:23,566 We do. 68 00:04:23,633 --> 00:04:24,666 Why is that? 69 00:04:25,366 --> 00:04:28,366 Because we've seen it in case, in and case out, 70 00:04:28,433 --> 00:04:31,633 uh, how young people who are in cages can hold the 71 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:33,666 expertise of what is happening to them, 72 00:04:33,733 --> 00:04:37,166 what has happened to them, and how when you honor that and 73 00:04:37,233 --> 00:04:39,633 value their voices in a meaningful way, 74 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,133 the expertise is just incredibly deep. 75 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:43,700 And it's not just what they hold, 76 00:04:43,766 --> 00:04:46,066 it's also what their loved ones hold. 77 00:04:46,133 --> 00:04:47,833 Um, the expertise of community, 78 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:50,033 of parents, of loved ones. 79 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:53,233 Uh, in our work, we spent countless hours interviewing 80 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:55,800 teachers, social workers, coaches, 81 00:04:55,866 --> 00:04:58,300 people who have come into contact with the young person 82 00:04:58,366 --> 00:05:01,333 who is the focal point of a particular situation, 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,600 and the expertise that each one of those actors is holding 84 00:05:04,666 --> 00:05:07,366 about, uh, maybe the harm that was caused, 85 00:05:07,433 --> 00:05:08,933 but also the ripple effects of that, 86 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,233 the context in which that occurred is profound. 87 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:15,333 And sometimes in the news we hear when children have 88 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,266 committed serious offenses 89 00:05:17,333 --> 00:05:20,200 that they're going to be tried as adults. 90 00:05:20,266 --> 00:05:20,933 Mm-Hmm. 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:21,866 What, what does that even mean? 92 00:05:21,933 --> 00:05:24,566 We're pretending something that isn't true, 93 00:05:24,633 --> 00:05:27,633 um, that we all understand anecdotally, 94 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:30,566 um, as human beings, but even the system understands. 95 00:05:30,633 --> 00:05:32,433 Um, there was a 10-year-old in Pennsylvania 96 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:35,500 not too many years ago who was being tried as an adult, 97 00:05:35,566 --> 00:05:37,033 put in adult jail cell and given crayons. 98 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:37,833 Wait a minute? 99 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:38,400 A 10-year-old? 100 00:05:38,466 --> 00:05:39,433 10-year-old. 101 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:42,766 Um, and the charges were undoubtedly serious, 102 00:05:42,833 --> 00:05:45,733 but they had people in the jail giving him crayons 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,233 because he was 10. 104 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:48,600 He was a child. 105 00:05:48,666 --> 00:05:52,700 And our system is pretending that he is something that he's not. 106 00:05:52,766 --> 00:05:56,733 How big can we think about the futures that can be provided 107 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,900 to all children in this country, 108 00:05:58,966 --> 00:06:02,466 not just those who are finding a way to succeed in incredibly 109 00:06:02,533 --> 00:06:03,866 challenging circumstances? 110 00:06:03,933 --> 00:06:05,400 - All of that... - Mad respect to those kids. 111 00:06:05,466 --> 00:06:06,133 That's right. 112 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,400 Exactly. 113 00:06:07,466 --> 00:06:09,133 But also mad respect to the kids who are having more trouble. 114 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:10,033 Yes. 115 00:06:10,633 --> 00:06:11,766 Yes. 116 00:06:11,833 --> 00:06:14,000 Brian Stevenson talks about the reflection of a culture 117 00:06:14,066 --> 00:06:17,166 being how we treat the poor that condemn the incarcerated. 118 00:06:17,233 --> 00:06:19,866 And we are not doing well on that measure as far as how we 119 00:06:19,933 --> 00:06:23,566 treat children, um, who, who make bad decisions unquestionably. 120 00:06:23,633 --> 00:06:27,600 And, you know, there needs to be caring, 121 00:06:27,666 --> 00:06:30,733 empathetic responses when young people do mess up, 122 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,066 and that's what we've tried to provide. 123 00:06:33,133 --> 00:06:36,533 Dr. Lawrence Steinberg, a groundbreaking expert on 124 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,033 adolescent psychology and behavior, champions 125 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:45,100 a revolutionary way of responding when children cause harm. 126 00:06:45,166 --> 00:06:51,133 I know one of your big ideas is that we have to rethink adolescents. 127 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,900 Why should we rethink adolescents? 128 00:06:53,966 --> 00:06:56,966 As we've learned more and more about brain development, 129 00:06:57,033 --> 00:07:00,733 it's become quite clear that brain maturation extends a lot 130 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,566 longer than we thought it had. 131 00:07:02,633 --> 00:07:07,333 And, and what are the consequences of brains not 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,633 being fully developed at 18? 133 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:11,900 How does that show up in law? 134 00:07:11,966 --> 00:07:17,100 The the argument is that if juveniles are not as mature as 135 00:07:17,166 --> 00:07:20,700 adults in important ways for judging their culpability, 136 00:07:20,766 --> 00:07:23,066 then they shouldn't be punished in the same way either. 137 00:07:23,133 --> 00:07:27,100 What's your sense of where we are as a society on that issue now? 138 00:07:27,166 --> 00:07:30,733 The question is, as a society, what's the best way to respond 139 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,733 when a young person violates the law commits a, 140 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,533 a serious crime? 141 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,900 So there isn't any question that we ought to respond 142 00:07:37,966 --> 00:07:40,100 somehow there should be consequences. 143 00:07:40,166 --> 00:07:43,333 Um, and some kids are dangerous and communities need 144 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,900 to be protected from individuals who might do harm 145 00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:49,566 to other members of the community. 146 00:07:49,633 --> 00:07:52,933 Um, on the other hand, people are capable of change. 147 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,733 Young people particularly are capable of change. 148 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,333 And so we wanna make sure that whatever we do in response to 149 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,066 somebody's criminal behavior, um, 150 00:08:02,133 --> 00:08:06,333 doesn't make that person more likely to offend in the future. 151 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:07,600 Right. 152 00:08:07,666 --> 00:08:08,800 We want to have interventions that are gonna make the person 153 00:08:08,866 --> 00:08:11,733 less likely to offend in the future. 154 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,933 It seems to me that there's some hope in this idea of 155 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,133 brain plasticity, in terms of rehabilitation, 156 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,333 in terms of even when kids have done very bad things. 157 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,833 In the church sometimes they say, 158 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,133 God's not finished with me yet. 159 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,033 But in a real sense, 160 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:36,733 you have some growing up to do that can be done. 161 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,733 I think that a, that a, a decent and humane society 162 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,333 gives people second chances. 163 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,000 Um, and that's really what we're talking about here. 164 00:08:44,066 --> 00:08:48,700 And these second chances there could be a big payoff for children. 165 00:08:48,766 --> 00:08:51,366 Oh, a big payoff for children and for communities. 166 00:08:51,433 --> 00:08:54,600 I mean, I, I think, look, we, we, 167 00:08:54,666 --> 00:08:58,500 we know that 90% of juvenile offenders don't become adult criminals. 168 00:08:58,566 --> 00:08:59,700 Say that again. 169 00:08:59,766 --> 00:09:02,800 90% of juvenile offenders do not become adult criminals. 170 00:09:02,866 --> 00:09:03,500 Wow. 171 00:09:03,566 --> 00:09:04,033 Right. 172 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:04,866 So most of them ... 173 00:09:04,933 --> 00:09:05,866 You say, we know that. 174 00:09:05,933 --> 00:09:07,100 I don't think most people actually know that. 175 00:09:07,166 --> 00:09:08,866 I don't, that I think most people don't know that. 176 00:09:08,933 --> 00:09:11,166 And I think unfortunately, they, 177 00:09:11,233 --> 00:09:13,533 they can look at a juvenile, look at a 16-year-old, 178 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,700 a 17-year-old has committed a bad act and say, 179 00:09:15,766 --> 00:09:17,766 this person is incorrigible. 180 00:09:17,833 --> 00:09:20,100 This person is ir, irreparably, 181 00:09:20,166 --> 00:09:22,066 uh, uh, troublesome. 182 00:09:22,133 --> 00:09:24,033 Um, but that's not true. 183 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:26,266 And that's not true in the vast majority of cases. 184 00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:29,100 The question is how do we design a system that provides 185 00:09:29,166 --> 00:09:32,333 opportunities for people to be rehabilitated? 186 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,633 YSRPs, Intergenerational Healing Circle gathers 187 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:41,200 together people of all ages and life experiences. 188 00:09:41,266 --> 00:09:44,366 It's a safe space to talk about trauma, 189 00:09:44,433 --> 00:09:48,433 injustice, the pain of incarceration, 190 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:53,100 the challenges of reentry, and hope for the future. 191 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,066 You know, this Intergenerational Healing Circle, 192 00:09:56,133 --> 00:09:57,700 you know, we use circle processes, 193 00:09:57,766 --> 00:10:00,533 restorative justice circle process, right? 194 00:10:00,633 --> 00:10:02,466 Or what's called restorative justice, 195 00:10:02,533 --> 00:10:05,933 which is, um, basically what indigenous people all around 196 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,333 the world have been doing for millennia. 197 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,000 A talking piece is what some indigenous societies over here 198 00:10:13,066 --> 00:10:17,766 used to, um, basically an item that has a meaning that we 199 00:10:17,833 --> 00:10:20,000 attribute meaning to, right? 200 00:10:20,066 --> 00:10:21,500 And we pass it around in a circle, 201 00:10:21,566 --> 00:10:24,300 and whoever is holding the talking piece is the only one 202 00:10:24,366 --> 00:10:25,800 that's talking. 203 00:10:25,866 --> 00:10:29,266 So this ensures that that person is thoroughly heard. 204 00:10:29,333 --> 00:10:32,933 Can we agree on some values that we wanna govern us as 205 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,666 we talk to each other here today? 206 00:10:35,733 --> 00:10:40,966 So that would mean each of us throwing out a value 207 00:10:41,033 --> 00:10:44,233 that we want us to be centered on. 208 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:49,833 So like, for instance, I say, um, respect. 209 00:10:52,333 --> 00:10:54,266 You know, like being relaxed. 210 00:10:54,333 --> 00:10:58,133 I think that when we do these types of interviews, 211 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,833 sometimes you don't catch the full essence of when it's just us, 212 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,466 because everybody not as relaxed and comfortable. 213 00:11:07,533 --> 00:11:10,300 And then later on, you know, you look back and be like, 214 00:11:10,366 --> 00:11:11,566 ah, you know, I think I missed this, 215 00:11:11,633 --> 00:11:13,900 or I should've spoke about this or that. 216 00:11:13,966 --> 00:11:16,566 You know, we, you know, we always kind of speak about 217 00:11:16,633 --> 00:11:19,866 the things that's we are passionate about, 218 00:11:19,933 --> 00:11:22,000 you know, things that, you know, 219 00:11:22,066 --> 00:11:25,333 touches our heart the most, what affects us the most. 220 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:30,533 So to sum all that up, passion, for me. 221 00:11:32,066 --> 00:11:35,133 For me, it's being open-minded about what it means to be a, 222 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,866 a black man and, and not get too hung up on like 223 00:11:40,933 --> 00:11:43,966 expectations about, you know, being this specific 224 00:11:44,033 --> 00:11:45,566 performance of masculinity. 225 00:11:45,633 --> 00:11:48,300 Like at first when you're passing this around, 226 00:11:48,366 --> 00:11:50,033 it's like a red heart, you know? 227 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:51,233 Come on man. 228 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:54,600 But, you know, I know that's kind of like my own issues. 229 00:11:54,666 --> 00:11:58,133 So I just want to like, be comfortable, 230 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,933 um, not feeling like judged about, 231 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,800 you know, how much of a black man I am, 232 00:12:02,866 --> 00:12:04,600 like how hard I have to be. 233 00:12:09,566 --> 00:12:12,500 Uh, I will say, uh, patience, you know, 234 00:12:12,566 --> 00:12:15,600 patience with, with regard to when someone's talking, 235 00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:17,466 you know, let them finish their statement. 236 00:12:17,533 --> 00:12:19,400 You don't try to like overtalk them. 237 00:12:19,466 --> 00:12:24,966 Um, um, you know, so yeah, just be patient with one another. 238 00:12:25,033 --> 00:12:30,900 What are you taking away from this conversation here today? 239 00:12:30,966 --> 00:12:32,666 In a word or a sentence, 240 00:12:32,733 --> 00:12:35,400 what are you taking away from this conversation today? 241 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:38,933 And I'll pass it to Stacey first. 242 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,400 Enthusiasm. 243 00:12:42,166 --> 00:12:45,966 A a comfort level with being vulnerable. 244 00:12:47,066 --> 00:12:49,966 Motivation that we only going to get better. 245 00:12:51,966 --> 00:12:54,666 So I think mine would be just hope and optimism whenever we 246 00:12:54,733 --> 00:12:56,366 had these types of discussions. 247 00:12:57,666 --> 00:13:02,666 Um, I would like to say strength or in the ability to keep going. 248 00:13:05,266 --> 00:13:06,100 Hmm. 249 00:13:06,166 --> 00:13:07,633 I would say, uh, gratefulness, you know, 250 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,400 just thankful for the opportunity that I've been 251 00:13:09,466 --> 00:13:12,200 given, uh, to continue this kind of work here. 252 00:13:12,266 --> 00:13:13,833 And so I'm grateful. 253 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:18,166 And mines would be accountability. 254 00:13:18,966 --> 00:13:21,500 Accountability to my brothers, you know, 255 00:13:21,566 --> 00:13:23,100 accountability to my community, 256 00:13:23,633 --> 00:13:26,733 you know, and, and to the world, so. 257 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:32,633 In 2012, the Supreme Court in a case called Miller v. Alabama 258 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,766 ruled that mandatory life sentences for children 259 00:13:36,833 --> 00:13:38,866 are unconstitutional. 260 00:13:39,733 --> 00:13:43,166 Many young people who judges have been forced to lock up 261 00:13:43,233 --> 00:13:46,666 for the rest of their lives got to come home. 262 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,666 We wanted to hear what they had to say. 263 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,700 And how old were you when you got locked up? 264 00:13:51,766 --> 00:13:52,700 I was 15. 265 00:13:52,766 --> 00:13:54,766 How long were you inside? 266 00:13:54,833 --> 00:13:57,366 I did 35 years. 267 00:13:57,433 --> 00:14:01,166 Uh, sentenced to life without pro, possibility of parole. 268 00:14:01,233 --> 00:14:04,433 15 years old, sentenced to die in prison? 269 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:05,866 Yes. 270 00:14:05,933 --> 00:14:09,033 Went to prison when I was 14 years old 271 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:11,633 for second degree murder. 272 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:13,633 What was your sentence? 273 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:15,400 A life without parole. 274 00:14:15,466 --> 00:14:17,000 I served 24 years. 275 00:14:17,066 --> 00:14:19,566 I was 17 when I was locked up as far as an adult. 276 00:14:19,633 --> 00:14:22,633 I got a life sentence that's theft by incarceration, 277 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:25,766 never to expect me to come home to die in jail. 278 00:14:25,833 --> 00:14:29,100 Zakair, what's the E block? 279 00:14:29,166 --> 00:14:33,233 E block is the only juvenile block up pick for, 280 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:35,400 um, juveniles as child and an adult. 281 00:14:35,466 --> 00:14:37,100 What was that like? 282 00:14:37,166 --> 00:14:38,833 Hell on earth. 283 00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:42,566 And what was the experience like of being, 284 00:14:42,633 --> 00:14:47,600 uh, a teenager locked up with, with grown men? 285 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,266 You know, it's a predatory environment. 286 00:14:51,333 --> 00:14:53,633 You know, so being a kid coming in there, 287 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,833 it's like, one thing I learned early on is the, 288 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,900 the more violent you are, the more people respect you and 289 00:14:58,966 --> 00:15:00,166 leave you alone. 290 00:15:00,233 --> 00:15:04,433 So I was just like, the most violent you can be. 291 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,666 And a hole is is solitary confinement. 292 00:15:06,733 --> 00:15:08,200 Solitary confinement. 293 00:15:08,266 --> 00:15:10,166 And have you ever been in the hole? 294 00:15:10,233 --> 00:15:12,400 More times than I can count. 295 00:15:12,466 --> 00:15:16,233 And, and, and people see it on TV, 296 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:20,000 but what, what's it like being in solitary confinement? 297 00:15:20,066 --> 00:15:22,966 Challenging intellectually. 298 00:15:23,033 --> 00:15:26,233 There's a lot of things like the conditions 299 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:28,000 that's like, that's hard. 300 00:15:28,066 --> 00:15:30,833 The, the type of people that, the type of people that, 301 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,166 that they have as staff. 302 00:15:33,233 --> 00:15:34,566 Like, just everything as a whole, 303 00:15:34,633 --> 00:15:35,800 it's just like, you want, you wouldn't, 304 00:15:35,866 --> 00:15:37,200 you wouldn't expect it to be like that, 305 00:15:37,266 --> 00:15:38,933 but it's exactly how it is. 306 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,333 You know I had gave up ever coming home. 307 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,100 I wasn't one of them people that, 308 00:15:43,166 --> 00:15:45,566 that, you know, always, I'm going home one day. 309 00:15:45,633 --> 00:15:47,400 I was one of them people that's like, 310 00:15:47,466 --> 00:15:50,266 I don't even want to think about going home anymore. 311 00:15:50,333 --> 00:15:55,866 And and you found a way to, to fight back using, uh, the law. 312 00:15:55,933 --> 00:15:57,233 Their handbook against them. 313 00:15:57,300 --> 00:15:58,966 The handbook you used it against them? 314 00:15:59,033 --> 00:16:01,333 Um, the rules and regulations of the jail. 315 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,866 And, and how did you make that work for [crosstalk]. 316 00:16:03,933 --> 00:16:06,100 Because every time they violated them, I wrote 'em up. 317 00:16:06,166 --> 00:16:07,500 And, and how successful were you? 318 00:16:07,566 --> 00:16:09,566 Very. 319 00:16:09,633 --> 00:16:11,466 You sound like a lawyer bragging about their cases. 320 00:16:11,533 --> 00:16:12,800 Yeah. 321 00:16:14,266 --> 00:16:15,266 Yeah. 322 00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:17,133 You know ... 323 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:18,333 I think there are a lot of people listening who 324 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,900 just would not believe that this lovely woman sitting here 325 00:16:22,966 --> 00:16:24,466 spent 40 years in prison. 326 00:16:24,533 --> 00:16:25,633 Yeah, I did. 327 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:27,600 I did. 328 00:16:27,666 --> 00:16:28,966 Unfortunately, I did. 329 00:16:29,033 --> 00:16:33,100 And I know I had to be accountable for what I did, 330 00:16:33,166 --> 00:16:36,300 but not death by incarceration, you know? 331 00:16:36,366 --> 00:16:38,500 'cause people change, you know, 332 00:16:38,566 --> 00:16:40,300 people grow, people get mature, 333 00:16:40,366 --> 00:16:42,166 people make better decisions. 334 00:16:42,233 --> 00:16:46,700 And at that time, I was not in that position to do that or 335 00:16:46,766 --> 00:16:49,766 mentally mature enough to do that. 336 00:16:49,833 --> 00:16:54,433 All you, all, all we be needing is opportunities like 337 00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:58,333 for jobs, recreation, like the small things due to the fact 338 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,200 that we grow up so young and not and less fortunate. 339 00:17:01,266 --> 00:17:03,666 Like, we'd be forced to go through a lot of things that 340 00:17:03,733 --> 00:17:05,366 we don't even normally wanna do. 341 00:17:05,433 --> 00:17:09,066 But since we live in poverty and, 342 00:17:09,133 --> 00:17:12,000 you know, jobs that only pay us minimum wage and 343 00:17:12,066 --> 00:17:14,300 everything, they're not gonna succeed what they gonna do, 344 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,966 turn to violence and things like that, 345 00:17:16,033 --> 00:17:18,033 because that's what they need to survive. 346 00:17:18,100 --> 00:17:20,566 What was it like when you heard that you were coming home? 347 00:17:20,633 --> 00:17:24,700 It was like being reborn again. 348 00:17:24,766 --> 00:17:25,266 You understand? 349 00:17:25,333 --> 00:17:28,466 It was, um, a burden. 350 00:17:28,533 --> 00:17:33,566 A relief of 30 years of incarceration lifted off my shoulders. 351 00:17:33,633 --> 00:17:36,400 As far as knowledge-wise, I didn't get a chance to live 352 00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:38,200 out here as an adult. 353 00:17:38,266 --> 00:17:41,933 So to make decisions as an adult out here is not the same 354 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,633 as making a decision that I had to make as an adult in prison. 355 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,600 You know, it's a lot more at stake. 356 00:17:47,666 --> 00:17:49,466 So, you know, it's a lot, lot of, 357 00:17:49,533 --> 00:17:51,733 it's a lot of ways that I think we had, 358 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,766 we need to be a more understanding society that, 359 00:17:54,833 --> 00:17:56,900 you know, people in prison, these are people, 360 00:17:56,966 --> 00:17:58,633 sons and daughters and mothers. 361 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,433 See the progress that we've done since we've been home. 362 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,000 We've changed lives, we've opened doors, 363 00:18:05,066 --> 00:18:07,400 we've changed conversations in people. 364 00:18:07,466 --> 00:18:10,100 And that's what, you know, what we really wanted to do 365 00:18:10,166 --> 00:18:13,133 with our second chance at coming home was not just to 366 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,233 prove to people that we are human and, 367 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:19,200 you know, we can make mistakes and change, 368 00:18:19,266 --> 00:18:22,566 but we are a great asset to the community. 369 00:18:22,633 --> 00:18:26,566 I also started, uh, a network called the Fremont 370 00:18:26,633 --> 00:18:31,266 Entrepreneur Network, where we highlight the good works of 371 00:18:31,333 --> 00:18:33,066 people who coming out, you know, 372 00:18:33,133 --> 00:18:36,000 who started businesses because maybe they would marginalized 373 00:18:36,066 --> 00:18:39,933 and couldn't, you know, get a job or couldn't receive, 374 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,333 uh, get a, a significant job to take care of themselves 375 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,400 and their family. 376 00:18:43,466 --> 00:18:45,833 And so they actually became entrepreneurs. 377 00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:48,300 You know, it's not about punishing people for the 378 00:18:48,366 --> 00:18:49,733 consequences or whatever like that. 379 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:50,933 'cause when you sit in the cell, 380 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,833 none of that stuff is helping you to be a better person. 381 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:58,600 I wasn't one of those kids that you could just throw away 382 00:18:58,666 --> 00:19:00,400 the key to give up on that. 383 00:19:00,466 --> 00:19:04,800 I did have, um, aspirations in life, 384 00:19:04,866 --> 00:19:08,333 you know, and I wanted to try to prove everybody wrong. 385 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,800 And, and how are you doing that? 386 00:19:09,866 --> 00:19:14,266 To show and try to stop other young kids from making the 387 00:19:14,333 --> 00:19:15,600 same mistakes that we made? 388 00:19:15,666 --> 00:19:19,633 Even if it's one, just being a follower as I was. 389 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:23,733 You know, just don't try to be in, 390 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,433 fit in because one's mistake can cost you your life. 391 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:31,100 Now, we've heard some stories today, 392 00:19:31,166 --> 00:19:32,900 some, some tragic stories, 393 00:19:32,966 --> 00:19:38,300 some stories about victories against all odds. 394 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,400 What should we be taking away from these stories? 395 00:19:42,133 --> 00:19:45,500 How are we helping people to explore their agency? 396 00:19:45,566 --> 00:19:49,200 How are we allowing them, uh, not just accept accountability 397 00:19:49,266 --> 00:19:51,333 in, in, in the sense that, uh, uh, 398 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,700 well accepting accountability in the sense of understanding 399 00:19:53,766 --> 00:19:56,833 many of the, uh, uh, uh, circumstances in which they 400 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:58,800 grew under, grew up under. 401 00:19:58,866 --> 00:20:02,633 And now they understand those circumstances a little bit better. 402 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:04,533 They're able to make better decisions, 403 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,333 but not only just make better decisions with regard to 404 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,200 themselves, but also how are they helping others? 405 00:20:09,266 --> 00:20:11,500 Kempis Songster, who goes by Ghani, 406 00:20:11,566 --> 00:20:15,433 has thought deeply about his experience in prison. 407 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:19,733 He says incarceration almost crushed his soul, 408 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,500 but he decided to use that time to grow and change. 409 00:20:25,566 --> 00:20:30,833 We talked about the challenge and the joy of creating a life 410 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:35,866 of meaning after decades of being locked away from the world. 411 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,300 So on the one hand, Tamika reminds me of my Aunt, 412 00:20:41,366 --> 00:20:45,833 John reminds me of one of my colleagues at Georgetown Law School, 413 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:49,966 and you remind me of one of my hanging buddies. 414 00:20:50,033 --> 00:20:54,633 But in the eyes of the law, you guys are, are felons. 415 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,866 Some of you are murderers. 416 00:20:57,766 --> 00:21:00,933 How do I, I I can't make those things. 417 00:21:01,533 --> 00:21:04,166 You know, when dealing with the sense of life without parole, 418 00:21:04,233 --> 00:21:05,966 per se, like for instance, 419 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:08,633 which is a sentence that basically says that hey, 420 00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:12,833 a person is no more than the worst thing that they ever done, 421 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,533 is no more than their darkest moment. 422 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,300 It's hard for us to reconcile those contradictions like 423 00:21:20,366 --> 00:21:21,500 you're talking about. 424 00:21:21,566 --> 00:21:24,300 But when we appreciate, we learn to appreciate people in 425 00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:25,966 the totality of who they are. 426 00:21:26,033 --> 00:21:29,633 When we learn the backstory, when we learn about the 427 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,566 journey, and then we see what people are capable of now, right? 428 00:21:33,633 --> 00:21:35,766 And we see people trying to take accountability, 429 00:21:35,833 --> 00:21:39,100 then maybe we can reconcile. You know what I'm saying? 430 00:21:39,166 --> 00:21:42,866 So accountability leads to redemption. 431 00:21:42,933 --> 00:21:43,666 I believe so. 432 00:21:43,733 --> 00:21:45,566 And what's accountability mean? 433 00:21:45,633 --> 00:21:49,333 In my view, um, accountability is, 434 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:55,800 is not someone like how, how we're told we're gonna hold 435 00:21:55,866 --> 00:21:59,000 this person accountable by placing them in a prison cell 436 00:21:59,066 --> 00:22:00,466 or by punishing them. 437 00:22:00,533 --> 00:22:01,766 That's not being accountable. 438 00:22:01,833 --> 00:22:04,066 That's just, you'd be being a passive actor. 439 00:22:04,133 --> 00:22:05,700 I just have to sit in a prison cell and, 440 00:22:05,766 --> 00:22:06,533 and be punished. 441 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,100 I don't have to be remorseful. 442 00:22:08,166 --> 00:22:12,000 I don't have to show any contrition or regret for 443 00:22:12,066 --> 00:22:13,266 what I've done. 444 00:22:13,333 --> 00:22:20,133 Shame accompanies, it rides with us for the rest of our lives. 445 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,033 You know what I mean? 446 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:22,433 Especially, is that productive though? 447 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,533 Should people feel shame? 448 00:22:25,633 --> 00:22:27,733 I could only speak for myself. 449 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,633 You know, I could only speak for myself. 450 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:35,066 Shame is something that I am never, 451 00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:39,666 ever going to get rid of. 452 00:22:39,733 --> 00:22:40,500 You know what I'm saying? 453 00:22:40,566 --> 00:22:42,166 Cause of the harm that you caused. 454 00:22:42,233 --> 00:22:43,433 Yeah. 455 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,866 We're not talking about a, um, a robbery that I can give some, 456 00:22:47,933 --> 00:22:50,500 compensate somebody back for what I took. 457 00:22:50,566 --> 00:22:53,466 We're not talking about a burglary or a snatch pocket book 458 00:22:53,533 --> 00:22:54,466 or anything like that. 459 00:22:54,533 --> 00:22:56,333 We're talking about the loss of a human life. 460 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,133 There is no repairing or reversing that. 461 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,033 There is no living that down. 462 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,300 These hands are bloodstained forever. 463 00:23:04,366 --> 00:23:05,500 And so what do you do? 464 00:23:05,566 --> 00:23:06,766 You serve. 465 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:08,800 You serve. 466 00:23:08,866 --> 00:23:10,733 You can't bring life back, but you serve and you commit 467 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,866 yourself to serving for the rest of your life. 468 00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:16,266 That's my personal conviction, right? 469 00:23:16,333 --> 00:23:19,033 That's, that's what accountability is for me. 470 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:21,500 It's not about the system convicting me, 471 00:23:21,566 --> 00:23:23,066 it's what I convict myself to. 472 00:23:23,133 --> 00:23:24,900 This is my pledge. 473 00:23:24,966 --> 00:23:27,633 Right now I can't bring life back, 474 00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:32,066 but what I can do is help save life or help steer other 475 00:23:32,133 --> 00:23:35,233 people away from hurting other people like 476 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,766 I did when I was 15 years old. 477 00:23:36,833 --> 00:23:39,266 And that's what the Intergenerational Healing Circle 478 00:23:39,333 --> 00:23:40,766 is really about. 479 00:23:40,833 --> 00:23:41,900 It's about service. 480 00:23:41,966 --> 00:23:46,400 It's about service, and it's about redemption, right? 481 00:23:46,466 --> 00:23:47,800 It's about salvation. 482 00:23:47,866 --> 00:23:51,700 It's about really making our communities healthy and safe. 483 00:23:51,766 --> 00:23:53,800 That's the key to making accountability. 484 00:23:53,866 --> 00:23:57,833 There's no healing without accountability and human 485 00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:01,166 capacity for transformation and change is real. 486 00:24:01,233 --> 00:24:03,000 And that's what our government needs to do, 487 00:24:03,066 --> 00:24:07,033 is invest in that more by doing away with sentences such 488 00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:10,966 as death by incarceration that basically treat some people as 489 00:24:11,033 --> 00:24:12,466 if they're disposable. 490 00:24:12,533 --> 00:24:14,700 Ghani, thank you for your service. 491 00:24:15,333 --> 00:24:16,700 Thank you. 492 00:24:17,366 --> 00:24:19,533 You've listened to the testimony of formerly 493 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,766 incarcerated men and women, people who are courageous, 494 00:24:23,833 --> 00:24:30,666 vulnerable, and optimistic enough to believe that we can do better. 495 00:24:32,066 --> 00:24:36,033 Maybe their hope springs from the fact that they had been 496 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:40,900 sentenced to die in prison, and then the Supreme Court 497 00:24:40,966 --> 00:24:43,966 gave them a second chance. 498 00:24:44,033 --> 00:24:48,866 Do we have the compassion to do the same thing, 499 00:24:48,933 --> 00:24:57,300 to reach out and lift them up to help them this time to succeed? 500 00:25:38,233 --> 00:25:41,800 Returning Citizens is made possible by 501 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,733 the United Way, 502 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,700 fostering the success of those who as they return to our 503 00:26:17,766 --> 00:26:21,466 neighborhoods, remain a largely untapped resource. 504 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,900 The formerly incarcerated. 505 00:26:23,966 --> 00:26:26,033 Waterman II Fund of the 506 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:30,100 Philadelphia Foundation at the recommendation of David Haas, 507 00:26:30,166 --> 00:26:33,033 the Independence Foundation.