1 00:00:01,533 --> 00:00:03,166 FUNDING: The Better Angels Society is proud to support 2 00:00:03,166 --> 00:00:04,266 this presentation of 3 00:00:04,266 --> 00:00:06,566 "The American Buffalo: A Story of Resilience," 4 00:00:06,566 --> 00:00:09,400 part of the "Ken Burns Public Dialogue Initiative 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,066 at Georgetown University." 6 00:00:12,966 --> 00:00:15,100 DeGIOIA: Hello. My name is Jack DeGioia, 7 00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:17,366 President of Georgetown University, 8 00:00:17,366 --> 00:00:20,033 and I'm pleased to welcome you to this discussion about 9 00:00:20,033 --> 00:00:21,700 "The American Buffalo", 10 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:24,666 a new film directed by Ken Burns. 11 00:00:24,666 --> 00:00:27,366 Georgetown has been honored to work with Ken to encourage 12 00:00:27,366 --> 00:00:31,566 open civil dialogue through the exploration of history. 13 00:00:31,566 --> 00:00:32,666 In a few moments, 14 00:00:32,666 --> 00:00:34,533 Judy Woodruff will lead a conversation with Ken 15 00:00:34,533 --> 00:00:38,600 and a group of experts, Rosalyn LaPier, Jason Baldes, 16 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,866 and Dan Flores about the history of 17 00:00:40,866 --> 00:00:42,766 this magnificent species, 18 00:00:42,766 --> 00:00:45,500 its importance to North American ecosystems, 19 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:48,733 and its special relationship with Indigenous people 20 00:00:48,733 --> 00:00:51,900 over the last 10,000 plus years. 21 00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:54,233 We hope you enjoy this special discussion. 22 00:00:56,833 --> 00:00:58,666 ANNOUNCE: Now here's the moderator for 23 00:00:58,666 --> 00:01:01,233 "The American Buffalo: A Story of Resilience" 24 00:01:01,233 --> 00:01:03,700 from the "PBS NewsHour", Judy Woodruff. 25 00:01:04,666 --> 00:01:08,400 WOODRUFF: Hello and welcome to this PBS special program, 26 00:01:08,766 --> 00:01:12,300 "The American Buffalo: A Story of Resilience" 27 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:16,766 to preview Ken Burns' new film on the extraordinary history 28 00:01:16,766 --> 00:01:19,933 and legacy of the largest land animal of 29 00:01:19,933 --> 00:01:21,766 the western hemisphere. 30 00:01:21,766 --> 00:01:23,133 Over the next hour, 31 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:25,833 we will take a closer look at the buffalo, 32 00:01:25,833 --> 00:01:27,700 also known as bison, 33 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:31,766 who have been on this continent for more than 10,000 years. 34 00:01:32,066 --> 00:01:35,033 How did this magnificent animal contribute to the 35 00:01:35,033 --> 00:01:36,866 creation of this country? 36 00:01:36,866 --> 00:01:40,400 How did their numbers drop from the tens of millions 37 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,800 to fewer than 1,000 in less than a century, 38 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,500 edging them close to extinction? 39 00:01:46,766 --> 00:01:49,733 And what efforts are being made to preserve and restore the 40 00:01:49,733 --> 00:01:53,666 population in a lasting and integrated way? 41 00:01:53,666 --> 00:01:55,866 To have this conversation, 42 00:01:55,866 --> 00:01:59,466 I'm delighted to be joined by the renowned filmmaker himself, 43 00:01:59,466 --> 00:02:03,400 Ken Burns along with Rosalyn LaPier. 44 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,433 An indigenous writer, and ethnobotanist, 45 00:02:06,433 --> 00:02:09,933 and a Professor of History at the University of Illinois 46 00:02:09,933 --> 00:02:11,866 at Urbana-Champaign; 47 00:02:11,866 --> 00:02:14,900 by Professor Emeritus of Western History at 48 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:16,866 the University of Montana, 49 00:02:16,866 --> 00:02:19,366 Dan Flores who is the author of, 50 00:02:19,366 --> 00:02:21,166 "Wild New World: 51 00:02:21,166 --> 00:02:24,500 The Epic Story of Animals and People in America" 52 00:02:24,833 --> 00:02:27,200 and by Jason Baldes, 53 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,933 Tribal Buffalo Program Manager for the 54 00:02:29,933 --> 00:02:34,233 National Wildlife Federation's Tribal Partnerships Program. 55 00:02:34,733 --> 00:02:36,866 Welcome to you all! 56 00:02:36,866 --> 00:02:40,933 Let's begin with a look at a clip from this 4-hour film, 57 00:02:40,933 --> 00:02:42,900 "The American Buffalo," 58 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:46,433 it's an excerpt which lays out the extraordinary ecological 59 00:02:46,433 --> 00:02:49,400 impact of the animal as well as their close 60 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,933 co-evolution alongside Native Americans. 61 00:02:53,766 --> 00:02:58,166 RINELLA: If you see one out grazing, it looks so, "slow." 62 00:02:58,166 --> 00:03:00,733 It's like a parked car sitting there. 63 00:03:00,733 --> 00:03:03,533 But they can clear six-foot fences. 64 00:03:03,533 --> 00:03:05,700 They can jump, 65 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:08,066 a horizontal jump, of seven feet. 66 00:03:09,633 --> 00:03:10,966 They can hit a speed, 67 00:03:10,966 --> 00:03:13,766 hit the speed of 35 miles an hour. 68 00:03:13,766 --> 00:03:15,433 And you're talking about something that can get going 69 00:03:15,433 --> 00:03:18,033 that speed that's 1,800 pounds. 70 00:03:18,033 --> 00:03:21,300 It's like a souped-up hotrod of an animal hiding 71 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:23,600 in a minivan shell. 72 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:27,066 NARRATOR: Fully grown, 73 00:03:27,066 --> 00:03:30,300 an American buffalo can weigh more than a ton; 74 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:33,566 stand taller than six feet at the shoulder; 75 00:03:33,566 --> 00:03:36,366 and stretch more than ten feet long, 76 00:03:36,366 --> 00:03:38,700 not including the tail. 77 00:03:39,566 --> 00:03:40,866 Huge as they are, 78 00:03:40,866 --> 00:03:42,833 they are small compared to some of the 79 00:03:42,833 --> 00:03:46,233 prehistoric animals that once roamed the continent: 80 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,366 woolly mammoths, giant ground sloths and camels, 81 00:03:50,366 --> 00:03:52,900 and other species of bison, 82 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:57,800 one of which had horns that sp anned 9 feet from tip to tip. 83 00:03:59,533 --> 00:04:02,166 After humans arrived in North America more 84 00:04:02,166 --> 00:04:05,800 than 20,000 years ago, all of the biggest animals, 85 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,000 along with nearly 50 other species, 86 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,300 went extinct on the continent, from either hunting, 87 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:15,966 or changing climate, or a combination of the two. 88 00:04:17,166 --> 00:04:18,766 In their place, 89 00:04:18,766 --> 00:04:22,333 the modern buffalo evolved and multiplied, 90 00:04:22,333 --> 00:04:25,200 particularly on the gr asslands of the Great Plains. 91 00:04:26,566 --> 00:04:30,066 FLORES: Bison and humans, in, in a real sense, 92 00:04:30,066 --> 00:04:33,700 co-evolved alongside one another over the last 93 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:35,866 10,000 years, or so. 94 00:04:35,866 --> 00:04:39,100 Sometimes the animals would ebb and flow. 95 00:04:39,100 --> 00:04:42,000 But they always rebounded. 96 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:45,866 And, so, there was this wonderful kind of dynamic 97 00:04:45,866 --> 00:04:50,100 equilibrium that lasted for more than 10,000 years. 98 00:04:51,333 --> 00:04:54,600 LaPIER: They have always lived with humans. 99 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,166 They've always been hunted by humans; 100 00:04:57,166 --> 00:04:59,133 they've always had predators, 101 00:05:00,833 --> 00:05:03,900 so their entire sort of evolution as, 102 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:06,366 as an animal species has been 103 00:05:06,366 --> 00:05:09,466 as an animal that has been, um, hunted. 104 00:05:10,233 --> 00:05:12,933 PUNKE: And their primary defense mechanism is to, 105 00:05:12,933 --> 00:05:14,366 to run away. 106 00:05:14,366 --> 00:05:17,500 And they have that skill at a very young age. 107 00:05:18,766 --> 00:05:22,666 A newborn buffalo calf tries to stand, for the first time, 108 00:05:22,666 --> 00:05:25,966 at the age of two minutes. 109 00:05:25,966 --> 00:05:27,833 And, at seven minutes, 110 00:05:27,833 --> 00:05:30,400 they're able to run with the herd. 111 00:05:33,466 --> 00:05:34,866 NARRATOR Over the centuries, 112 00:05:34,866 --> 00:05:37,433 their grazing habits on the wide expanses of 113 00:05:37,433 --> 00:05:41,500 the Great Plains proved crucial to its ecology... 114 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,266 The types of grasses that flourished there, 115 00:05:44,266 --> 00:05:47,833 and the other species that thrived alongside the buffalo. 116 00:05:49,233 --> 00:05:52,033 Even when they stopped and sometimes dug through 117 00:05:52,033 --> 00:05:55,733 the grass with their horns, and then rolled in the dust, 118 00:05:55,733 --> 00:05:58,066 creating "buffalo wallows", 119 00:05:58,066 --> 00:06:01,033 the bison's habits helped support other forms of 120 00:06:01,033 --> 00:06:03,400 life on the Plains. 121 00:06:04,233 --> 00:06:06,266 LaPIER: It's not just one wallow; 122 00:06:06,266 --> 00:06:09,466 we're talking about millions of bison, 123 00:06:09,466 --> 00:06:12,366 which means millions of wallows. 124 00:06:12,566 --> 00:06:15,200 DANT: those wallows could do a couple of things. 125 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,766 At its most simple and basic, it's a "dirt bath." 126 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,933 But then, it also has an ecosystem function. 127 00:06:21,933 --> 00:06:23,300 Water retention. 128 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,800 If it rained, these become shallow little ponds and pools. 129 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,300 And that, in turn, affected the landscape, as well. 130 00:06:32,066 --> 00:06:34,766 LaPIER: Because it's also a disturbed area, 131 00:06:34,766 --> 00:06:39,200 plants that flourish in disturbed areas will also, 132 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,100 then, grow around a wallow. 133 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,933 So, they became these really great areas, not only for, um, 134 00:06:46,933 --> 00:06:48,400 wildlife to use, 135 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,533 but also for humans to use because of the plants 136 00:06:52,533 --> 00:06:54,233 that were there. 137 00:06:54,233 --> 00:06:57,366 WHITE: When the buffalo are here, the land is good. 138 00:06:57,366 --> 00:07:01,033 When the land is good, the buffalo are healthy. 139 00:07:01,033 --> 00:07:04,600 We have lived here for 600 generations. 140 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,233 We have been here, conservatively, 12,000 years. 141 00:07:08,233 --> 00:07:11,066 So, if you think about that 12,000 years, 142 00:07:11,066 --> 00:07:13,866 imagine that on a timeline. 143 00:07:13,866 --> 00:07:16,933 And then, take that 12,000 years and wrap that timeline 144 00:07:16,933 --> 00:07:19,466 around a 24-hour clock. 145 00:07:19,466 --> 00:07:24,366 What that means is that Columbus arrived at about 146 00:07:24,366 --> 00:07:31,000 11:28 PM, and Lewis and Clark, 147 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,666 at about fifteen minutes before midnight. 148 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:38,433 WOODRUFF: Just a remarkable clip from the film. 149 00:07:38,433 --> 00:07:41,233 And Roslyn, I want to begin with you. 150 00:07:41,233 --> 00:07:42,466 And we should add, 151 00:07:42,466 --> 00:07:45,833 you're a member of the Blackfeet Metis Tribe. 152 00:07:45,833 --> 00:07:48,200 And what we heard you speaking about and the others 153 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,766 in the film is how the buffalo evolved with humans. 154 00:07:52,133 --> 00:07:53,833 Even at the same time, 155 00:07:53,833 --> 00:07:56,600 it was being hunted by humans. 156 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,833 Explain how that could be. 157 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:02,266 LaPIER: Well, one of the things we know about bison, 158 00:08:02,266 --> 00:08:04,766 of course, the modern bison that we know today, 159 00:08:04,766 --> 00:08:07,333 they evolved here in North America, 160 00:08:07,333 --> 00:08:11,300 and they evolved at the same time that Indigenous people had 161 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,133 already been here for probably 10,000 years. 162 00:08:14,133 --> 00:08:19,666 And so Indigenous people and the bison sort of lived 163 00:08:19,666 --> 00:08:23,366 together in the same places, in the same areas. 164 00:08:23,366 --> 00:08:27,900 And because the Indigenous People hunted bison, 165 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:32,300 bison just grew along a lot of different Indigenous Nations 166 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:36,933 and became the sort of, animal of choice, 167 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:41,766 both for not just hunting to eat, 168 00:08:42,633 --> 00:08:46,600 but also to use for a lot of the materials that they used 169 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,933 for daily life, but then also gave them a lot of meaning. 170 00:08:49,933 --> 00:08:54,766 You know, bison became very much enmeshed in 171 00:08:54,766 --> 00:08:57,700 Indigenous Religion and religious practice, 172 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:59,933 and that was because of this long, you know, 173 00:08:59,933 --> 00:09:03,466 thousands of years a relationship that was developed 174 00:09:03,466 --> 00:09:08,633 across the Great Plains during this first sort of 10,000 years 175 00:09:09,433 --> 00:09:11,600 of their history. 176 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,033 WOODRUFF: And Dan Flores, 177 00:09:13,033 --> 00:09:15,633 I mean, it is one of the, I think, most remarkable 178 00:09:15,633 --> 00:09:18,200 things that most people are not aware of. 179 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,533 And that is, as we just heard from Roslyn, 180 00:09:20,533 --> 00:09:24,266 how long this relationship goes back, 181 00:09:24,266 --> 00:09:26,866 how long the buffalo were here. 182 00:09:26,866 --> 00:09:29,466 It's almost impossible to comprehend. 183 00:09:29,933 --> 00:09:34,066 Give us a sense of-of how that length of time 184 00:09:34,066 --> 00:09:38,233 allowed this co-existence to take place. 185 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:44,000 FLORES: Well, if you think of those 10,000 years that Roslyn 186 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,233 just referred to as an inhabitation of North America, 187 00:09:50,033 --> 00:09:52,600 that compares roughly to that of the United States. 188 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,466 United States has been here a little more than 300 years. 189 00:09:56,466 --> 00:10:01,800 So, we're talking about a depth of time that's 190 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,733 30 or 40 times longer than just the existence 191 00:10:06,733 --> 00:10:09,633 of the country that we all think of as being 192 00:10:09,633 --> 00:10:12,600 fairly old now and being three centuries old. 193 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,400 So, it's a very old relationship. 194 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,100 Bison and humans not only co-evolved, 195 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,600 but bison really pretty much adapted to the presence of 196 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,933 humans during their emergence 8,000, 9,000 197 00:10:29,933 --> 00:10:33,100 10,000 years ago and to their modern form. 198 00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:35,166 I mean, they became smaller, 199 00:10:35,166 --> 00:10:40,566 they had a quicker reproductive turnover and 200 00:10:40,566 --> 00:10:44,866 they and their habits and their range, 201 00:10:44,866 --> 00:10:50,066 they were really kind of regulated to some degree 202 00:10:50,066 --> 00:10:51,700 by native people. 203 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:53,766 It's the oldest and this is an easy way to think of it. 204 00:10:53,766 --> 00:10:56,900 It's the oldest economic life way, 205 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:00,266 this relationship between humans and buffalo, 206 00:11:00,266 --> 00:11:03,133 and particularly hunting buffalo on the part of humans. 207 00:11:03,133 --> 00:11:06,000 It's the oldest economic life way in North America. 208 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,966 We don't have anything else that compares to an 8,000 or 209 00:11:08,966 --> 00:11:12,600 9,000 or 10,000-year way of life for humans 210 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:13,900 on this continent. 211 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:16,700 WOODRUFF: And Jason, we don't we don't think of this as a, 212 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:19,300 an economic relationship typically. 213 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:22,466 But that's it's very much what it was. 214 00:11:22,466 --> 00:11:26,733 BALDES: That's exactly right for the Eastern Shoshone people. 215 00:11:26,733 --> 00:11:31,166 We were even went so far as distinguishing ourselves by the 216 00:11:31,166 --> 00:11:34,066 foods we ate and the Eastern band, the Shoshone, 217 00:11:34,466 --> 00:11:36,466 we called ourselves the "Guchundeka", 218 00:11:36,466 --> 00:11:38,700 the "Buffalo Eaters". 219 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,533 And even though this animal's been missing or was 220 00:11:41,533 --> 00:11:45,800 missing for 131 years, it's still in our DNA. 221 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,466 It's in our songs. It's in our ceremonies. 222 00:11:48,466 --> 00:11:51,633 It's actually critical in our ceremonies. 223 00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:54,366 And nutritionally, you know, 224 00:11:54,366 --> 00:11:58,566 that that animal's critical, as critical today as it was for 225 00:11:58,566 --> 00:12:00,133 our people then. 226 00:12:00,133 --> 00:12:04,066 So, it's intricately intertwined into who we are. 227 00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:06,200 WOODRUFF: And Ken, what drove you to this? 228 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,766 What compelled you to want to look at 229 00:12:07,766 --> 00:12:09,733 the American buffalo? 230 00:12:09,733 --> 00:12:12,766 BURNS: Well, I think, Judy, the big thing is, 231 00:12:12,766 --> 00:12:16,500 is that it's so intertwined with the history of us in all 232 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:18,933 of the intimacy of that word and all the bigness of 233 00:12:18,933 --> 00:12:20,733 the United States. 234 00:12:20,733 --> 00:12:22,666 And it's humbling. 235 00:12:22,666 --> 00:12:25,766 We-we have to sort of take a step back and understand that 236 00:12:25,766 --> 00:12:28,300 we're studying not just the story of this animal, 237 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:31,666 which is a fascinating and ultimately positive story 238 00:12:31,666 --> 00:12:33,966 parable of de-extinction. 239 00:12:33,966 --> 00:12:38,166 But it's a tragedy going in as we watch their numbers go from 240 00:12:38,166 --> 00:12:42,333 30, 40, 50 million on the Great Plains 241 00:12:42,866 --> 00:12:45,433 to fewer than not just 1,000, 242 00:12:45,433 --> 00:12:49,933 maybe even fewer than 100, wild and free and, 243 00:12:49,933 --> 00:12:53,533 and that story is a story of Native people, 244 00:12:53,533 --> 00:12:57,700 all the different nations, Indigenous tribes that were 245 00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:00,200 interrelating with the buffalo in the Great Plains. 246 00:13:00,666 --> 00:13:03,666 So, I think in some ways our delay in getting to it 247 00:13:03,666 --> 00:13:06,966 permitted us to become a little bit smarter, 248 00:13:06,966 --> 00:13:09,200 but also a little bit more, 249 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,500 gather a little bit more humility, 250 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:14,333 and begin to understand this story differently from 251 00:13:14,333 --> 00:13:15,700 the way we tell it. 252 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:18,600 I mean, the buffalo is, you know, from, 253 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,733 as we like to say, 254 00:13:19,733 --> 00:13:23,100 from the tail to the snort used by so many of the 255 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,033 different tribes completely. 256 00:13:25,033 --> 00:13:28,900 It's just an amazing story that touches on nearly every aspect 257 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:31,166 of our complicated history. 258 00:13:31,166 --> 00:13:34,366 WOODRUFF: And that's what comes through so clearly in this film. 259 00:13:34,366 --> 00:13:38,066 Roslyn, why do you think the Native American part of this 260 00:13:38,066 --> 00:13:42,066 story has not really come out before now? 261 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,066 LaPIER: That's a great question, Judy. 262 00:13:45,066 --> 00:13:48,400 And I think it's there's a lot of different answers to that. 263 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,800 I think that one, I think that we're just learning so much 264 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,133 more now today from Indigenous peoples themselves about 265 00:13:56,133 --> 00:13:58,900 sort of the traditional ecological knowledge and 266 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:02,000 indigenous knowledge that Indigenous people hold 267 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,100 and then kind of integrating that with what we 268 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,400 learn from kind of Western science and academia. 269 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,500 And I think that that helps tell a much more holistic story 270 00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:15,333 about the bison. 271 00:14:15,333 --> 00:14:18,466 And I think that now of course today there's a lot 272 00:14:18,466 --> 00:14:20,066 more folks like myself, 273 00:14:20,066 --> 00:14:21,800 you know, who are people who are raised with 274 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,200 indigenous knowledge but now also have academic training. 275 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,900 And so, we are able to blend those worlds and be able to 276 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:32,466 tell kind of this larger story of the bison 277 00:14:32,466 --> 00:14:35,666 here in native North America. 278 00:14:35,666 --> 00:14:38,566 And I think one of the things that is an important point to 279 00:14:38,566 --> 00:14:42,566 make at the beginning is, oftentimes Indigenous people, 280 00:14:42,566 --> 00:14:45,766 because we had this long history with bison, 281 00:14:45,766 --> 00:14:47,766 we really understood bison. 282 00:14:47,766 --> 00:14:50,400 You know, through again, thousands of years of 283 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,766 observation and-and living with bison, 284 00:14:54,766 --> 00:14:59,300 that kind of that common misnomer stereotype that we 285 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,033 often hear that you know, 286 00:15:01,033 --> 00:15:03,500 Indigenous people like followed the bison. 287 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:06,066 Indigenous people probably rarely followed the bison. 288 00:15:06,066 --> 00:15:08,033 They created landscapes, 289 00:15:08,033 --> 00:15:12,566 they managed the land in ways that bison would come 290 00:15:12,566 --> 00:15:15,400 to them, and that they knew where to go, 291 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,500 to go look for bison. 292 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,066 WOODRUFF: And Dan, what's your sense of why it's taken 293 00:15:20,066 --> 00:15:22,666 so long to get this critical part of this 294 00:15:22,666 --> 00:15:24,400 story to the forefront, 295 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,766 to be told so that people can understand it in 296 00:15:27,766 --> 00:15:29,933 a way we've really never understood it before? 297 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:33,666 FLORES: Well, I would say, Judy, 298 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,566 that one of the issues has been that it's only been 299 00:15:38,566 --> 00:15:43,133 in the last century, really since the 1920s. 300 00:15:43,133 --> 00:15:47,866 So, 100 years ago that we understood that Native people 301 00:15:47,866 --> 00:15:51,566 had been here for many, many thousands of years. 302 00:15:51,566 --> 00:15:53,833 I mean, in the early 1920s, 303 00:15:53,833 --> 00:15:56,833 even people that anthropologist at the 304 00:15:56,833 --> 00:16:00,900 Smithsonian were arguing that Indigenous people had only 305 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,466 been in North America for a couple of thousand years before 306 00:16:03,466 --> 00:16:05,500 Europeans arrived. 307 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:11,500 But we discovered in-in Folsom, New Mexico, a site, 308 00:16:12,033 --> 00:16:14,666 an archeological site that was, 309 00:16:15,533 --> 00:16:20,100 came to light as a result of an African American cowboy 310 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:23,900 locating the bones of very large, 311 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:26,866 clearly extinct versions of bison. 312 00:16:26,866 --> 00:16:29,000 And a few years later, 313 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,133 archeologists realizing that there were actually 314 00:16:32,133 --> 00:16:36,800 flint tools buried in the vertebrate of those 315 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,533 animals of-of those remains, 316 00:16:39,533 --> 00:16:43,866 that North America had a really old history. 317 00:16:43,866 --> 00:16:47,500 We had sort of thought even 100 years ago that 318 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:51,400 North America really started when Europeans arrived. 319 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,133 And suddenly now, only 100 years ago, 320 00:16:54,133 --> 00:16:58,166 we began to realize that this history stretches back into the 321 00:16:58,166 --> 00:17:00,533 dimness of time. 322 00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:03,500 And so over that past hundred years, 323 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:07,800 we've gradually been putting together this story... 324 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,866 So, we're all kind of excited, I think, 325 00:17:09,866 --> 00:17:14,066 to be able to bring this deep-time story to a modern 326 00:17:14,066 --> 00:17:18,233 audience with all the nuances that we've been able to add to 327 00:17:18,233 --> 00:17:21,933 it here over the last 20 or so years as a result of 328 00:17:21,933 --> 00:17:25,700 breakthroughs in scientific knowledge and finally beginning 329 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,066 to talk to Native people and asking them what 330 00:17:28,066 --> 00:17:29,933 they know themselves. 331 00:17:29,933 --> 00:17:33,866 WOODRUFF: And Jason, when you think about the Europeans 332 00:17:33,866 --> 00:17:39,133 coming on the scene and things changing so quickly, 333 00:17:39,133 --> 00:17:41,933 it was almost breathtaking how quickly things turned, 334 00:17:41,933 --> 00:17:43,600 wasn't it? 335 00:17:44,033 --> 00:17:45,333 BALDES: It really was. 336 00:17:45,333 --> 00:17:49,533 And we have to consider the eras of federal Indian law and 337 00:17:49,533 --> 00:17:53,533 policy that were really were to dismantle the ways of 338 00:17:53,533 --> 00:17:56,033 life of Native people. 339 00:17:56,033 --> 00:18:00,066 These six or seven eras, you know, 340 00:18:00,066 --> 00:18:03,600 are the reservation era of termination relocation. 341 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,766 You know, during the civil rights era, 342 00:18:05,766 --> 00:18:08,700 we kind of have self-determination really, 343 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,966 where we have a, you know, 344 00:18:10,966 --> 00:18:15,466 the upholding of-of sovereignty and self-determination. 345 00:18:15,466 --> 00:18:18,833 So, you know, those eras were pretty preventative 346 00:18:18,833 --> 00:18:23,600 of-of tribes exercising things like buffalo restoration. 347 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,100 So, we're in a new era now and, you know, 348 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,100 the recognition of this history, 349 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:34,966 but also the federal government's role in that and 350 00:18:34,966 --> 00:18:37,866 the trust responsibility that the government has now to 351 00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:41,133 assist our tribes in restoring buffalo. 352 00:18:41,133 --> 00:18:44,100 And, you know, we now have 83 member tribes of the 353 00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:46,400 Intertribal Buffalo Council. 354 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,833 There's folks like the National Wildlife Federation, you know, 355 00:18:49,833 --> 00:18:53,033 upholding and assisting in restoration. 356 00:18:53,033 --> 00:18:56,166 There's cultural, academic, nutritional, 357 00:18:56,166 --> 00:18:59,900 ecological reasons for bringing the species back. 358 00:19:00,566 --> 00:19:03,633 And so, I think we're in a new era in buffalo 359 00:19:03,633 --> 00:19:05,800 are foundational to that. 360 00:19:06,133 --> 00:19:09,100 WOODRUFF: And Ken, going back to your really 361 00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:10,666 the first part of this film, 362 00:19:10,666 --> 00:19:13,733 the first hour, where you so clearly establish 363 00:19:13,733 --> 00:19:17,133 what happened when the Europeans came on the scene, 364 00:19:17,666 --> 00:19:22,866 it-it happened so quickly over the span of time and completely 365 00:19:22,866 --> 00:19:26,866 changed the-the presence of the buffalo on 366 00:19:26,866 --> 00:19:28,666 the American continent. 367 00:19:28,666 --> 00:19:31,333 BURNS: So, Dan talked about the economic relationship, 368 00:19:31,333 --> 00:19:34,400 the oldest one, the new economies of hides. 369 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,033 And then later bones are going to conspire in a kind of 370 00:19:39,033 --> 00:19:41,800 God-awful way. 371 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,400 There's no other way to put it. 372 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,366 This unbelievable tragedy of the slaughter of the buffalo 373 00:19:47,366 --> 00:19:50,233 all up and down the plains from the southern 374 00:19:50,233 --> 00:19:52,900 to the central to the northern plains. 375 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:56,700 And it is a story that we kind of have to be reminded 376 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:57,833 we have to look at. 377 00:19:57,833 --> 00:19:59,300 We have to own the story. 378 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,966 And we also have to begin to see that our relationship 379 00:20:02,966 --> 00:20:05,666 to things is not the only relationship to things. 380 00:20:06,166 --> 00:20:09,633 And when I say our I mean the European and-and-and 381 00:20:09,633 --> 00:20:11,666 White American version of things. 382 00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:14,733 WOODRUFF: And when, as you say, when it comes to the buffalo, 383 00:20:14,733 --> 00:20:17,900 the destruction that we're talking about occurred over 384 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,400 just a matter of a few decades. 385 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,900 And that's what we are confronted with in this film. 386 00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:27,666 In this next clip from the film, where we see the extent of 387 00:20:27,666 --> 00:20:31,066 what is called the "final" slaughter of buffalo and 388 00:20:31,066 --> 00:20:33,366 the economic impetus behind it. 389 00:20:33,366 --> 00:20:35,400 It was 1881, 390 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,800 a year when the market surged for buffalo hide 391 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,900 and for expanding railroads, 392 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,233 as hunters and their big guns kept moving west, 393 00:20:44,233 --> 00:20:47,466 across the great plains and into the Rocky Mountains. 394 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:50,700 NARRATOR: That same year, 395 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,200 the Northern Pacific reached Miles City 396 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,566 in Montana Territory. 397 00:20:55,566 --> 00:20:59,533 Soon, 5,000 hide hunters and skinners were spilling 398 00:20:59,533 --> 00:21:02,666 over the plains, from the Yellowstone River to the 399 00:21:02,666 --> 00:21:04,133 Upper Missouri, 400 00:21:04,133 --> 00:21:06,800 where they set up what one army lieutenant called 401 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,300 "a cordon of camps... 402 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,766 Blocking the great ranges and rendering it impossible 403 00:21:12,766 --> 00:21:15,166 for scarcely a single bison to escape." 404 00:21:17,633 --> 00:21:21,500 The killing commenced, all over again. 405 00:21:24,333 --> 00:21:26,133 Meanwhile, in New York, 406 00:21:26,133 --> 00:21:29,566 31-year-old George Bird Grinnell had become editor 407 00:21:29,566 --> 00:21:31,600 of "Forest and Stream", 408 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,400 a publication for hunters and fishermen that he was prodding 409 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,466 to take on issues of co nservation with more urgency. 410 00:21:40,166 --> 00:21:43,800 During the hide-hunting on the southern Plains, 411 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,966 he had advocated for policies he called "just" and "honest" 412 00:21:47,966 --> 00:21:50,866 toward Native Americans that would, he wrote, 413 00:21:50,866 --> 00:21:54,900 "conscientiously aid in the increase of the buffalo, 414 00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:58,200 instead of furthering its fo olish and reckless slaughter." 415 00:21:59,966 --> 00:22:02,533 Now, Grinnell turned his attention to what was 416 00:22:02,533 --> 00:22:05,000 unfolding in Montana. 417 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,733 GRINNELL: Up to within a few years ago, 418 00:22:08,733 --> 00:22:10,900 the valley of the Yellowstone River has been 419 00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:13,733 a magnificent hunting ground... 420 00:22:13,733 --> 00:22:17,166 The progress of the Northern Pacific Railroad, however, 421 00:22:17,166 --> 00:22:20,233 has changed all this. 422 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:24,566 The buffalo will disappear unless steps are taken to 423 00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:26,600 protect it there. 424 00:22:28,333 --> 00:22:33,400 PUNKE: This is the era of the myth of inexhaustibility. 425 00:22:34,666 --> 00:22:37,933 The belief that the West is so vast, 426 00:22:37,933 --> 00:22:40,966 that the resources are so vast, 427 00:22:40,966 --> 00:22:42,966 that they can never be exhausted. 428 00:22:44,466 --> 00:22:48,066 But it was so much in front of them what was happening 429 00:22:48,066 --> 00:22:50,733 that I think they began to figure it out. 430 00:22:51,233 --> 00:22:54,366 It became more and more difficult to find buffalo. 431 00:22:54,366 --> 00:22:56,800 And there were ominous signs. 432 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,633 Weird things began to happen. 433 00:22:58,633 --> 00:23:00,866 Like, they would find herds that were comprised 434 00:23:00,866 --> 00:23:04,133 entirely of calves. 435 00:23:04,133 --> 00:23:07,866 But there also was a capacity to deny and to believe 436 00:23:07,866 --> 00:23:11,166 that they had just gone over the next ridge line. 437 00:23:11,166 --> 00:23:14,466 Gone into the next territory. 438 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,900 And, so, all of that kind of mixes together. 439 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:21,433 NARRATOR In Miles City, in the fall of 1883, 440 00:23:21,433 --> 00:23:25,333 the hide hunters prepared for another winter on the Plains, 441 00:23:25,333 --> 00:23:28,700 believing there must still be plenty of buffalo between the 442 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:31,566 Yellowstone and Missouri rivers. 443 00:23:32,633 --> 00:23:34,700 They came back in the spring, 444 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:37,266 with almost nothing to show for their efforts. 445 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,900 RINELLA: There are people in Miles City who had been 446 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:44,233 hide hunters and they're simply lolling around waiting 447 00:23:44,233 --> 00:23:46,266 for the return of the herds. 448 00:23:46,266 --> 00:23:48,900 They still thought there has to be some, somewhere. 449 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:50,400 When they had finished, 450 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,433 they didn't know they'd finished. 451 00:23:52,733 --> 00:23:55,133 They felt that, well, it can't be over. 452 00:23:55,133 --> 00:23:56,833 And it was over. 453 00:23:57,733 --> 00:24:01,666 NARRATOR: In 1884, the total number of hides brought to the 454 00:24:01,666 --> 00:24:05,066 Northern Pacific fit in a single boxcar. 455 00:24:08,666 --> 00:24:12,900 MAYER: One by one, we runners put up our buffalo rifles, 456 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,533 sold them, gave them away, 457 00:24:16,533 --> 00:24:20,600 or kept them for other hunting, and left the ranges. 458 00:24:21,366 --> 00:24:25,133 And there settled over them a vast quiet... 459 00:24:26,033 --> 00:24:28,833 The buffalo was gone. 460 00:24:28,833 --> 00:24:30,500 Frank Mayer. 461 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,733 FLORES: There is no, no story anywhere in world history that 462 00:24:38,733 --> 00:24:44,100 involves as large a destruction of wild animals as happened in 463 00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:47,400 North America in the Western United States, in particular, 464 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,533 between 1800 and about 1890. 465 00:24:51,533 --> 00:24:54,566 I mean, it is the largest destruction of animal life 466 00:24:54,566 --> 00:24:57,366 discoverable in modern world history. 467 00:24:58,733 --> 00:25:02,266 LaPIER: Why Americans are so destructive; 468 00:25:02,266 --> 00:25:04,766 I think is an important question to ask. 469 00:25:06,066 --> 00:25:10,433 Why is that part of our story? Why is that part of our history? 470 00:25:11,733 --> 00:25:13,066 WOODRUFF: And to you, Roslyn, 471 00:25:13,066 --> 00:25:15,933 that is such a sobering statement, America. 472 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:20,000 And how destructive have Americans been? 473 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,833 Do you have an answer to that? 474 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,066 LaPIER: You know, I'm not sure if I do have an answer to that, 475 00:25:26,066 --> 00:25:30,133 although I do want to sort of make a clarification in that 476 00:25:30,133 --> 00:25:33,300 this this is an American story. 477 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:37,133 I think we often when we think about the past and we talk 478 00:25:37,133 --> 00:25:40,000 about the heritage of the United States of America, 479 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,133 we often talk about Europeans and European heritage. 480 00:25:44,133 --> 00:25:46,933 And by the time we're talking about the 19th century, 481 00:25:46,933 --> 00:25:49,600 we really are talking about the United States of America 482 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,966 and Americans. 483 00:25:50,966 --> 00:25:53,900 And it really is Americans who are complicit 484 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:57,700 in this destruction, again, not just of bison, 485 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:02,200 but of a lot of the different animal species and 486 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,900 even plant species on the northern Great Plains or 487 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:07,500 on the Great Plains. 488 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:10,466 So I think it's one of the things that other people have 489 00:26:10,466 --> 00:26:15,600 brought up of we-we see what had happened in the past 490 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,600 and that maybe this is a time for us to really 491 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,733 rethink ourselves as a country, as the United States of America, 492 00:26:22,433 --> 00:26:27,900 our own complicit part of this tale of destruction, 493 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:35,000 and perhaps how then today we can restore and-and 494 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,066 redevelop and revitalize the relationships between bison and 495 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,766 Indigenous people, but also bison and Americans. 496 00:26:45,666 --> 00:26:47,633 WOODRUFF: I do want to come back to this question that, 497 00:26:47,633 --> 00:26:50,400 Dan, that that Roslyn raises in the film, 498 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,033 and that is why Americans are so destructive. 499 00:26:54,033 --> 00:26:56,833 She was referring to that particular period 500 00:26:56,833 --> 00:26:58,633 of the 19th century, 501 00:26:58,633 --> 00:27:01,666 but others have-have broadened it out to the 502 00:27:01,666 --> 00:27:03,033 scope of American life. 503 00:27:03,033 --> 00:27:04,400 How do you see it? 504 00:27:04,666 --> 00:27:06,300 FLORES: I see it as a, 505 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,733 the bison story is part of a bigger context, 506 00:27:10,633 --> 00:27:13,900 I suppose, Native people saw themselves as 507 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,666 being kin to other animals. 508 00:27:17,066 --> 00:27:19,033 I mean, they, in effect, 509 00:27:19,033 --> 00:27:22,900 presaged the Charles Darwin idea from 510 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,966 the late 1850s. 511 00:27:25,966 --> 00:27:31,233 And that of course became the substance of the whole ecology, 512 00:27:31,233 --> 00:27:34,333 the science of ecology and the ecology movement in 513 00:27:34,333 --> 00:27:36,700 the 20th and 21st centuries. 514 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:43,200 But Europeans old worlder's brought with them notions of-of 515 00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:45,966 human exceptionalism, 516 00:27:45,966 --> 00:27:49,433 a religious tradition that humans were different from 517 00:27:49,433 --> 00:27:51,500 every other life form on the planet. 518 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:54,233 We were the only ones made in the image of a deity, 519 00:27:54,233 --> 00:27:55,966 the only ones with souls. 520 00:27:55,966 --> 00:28:00,933 Other animals lacked those kinds of connections. 521 00:28:00,933 --> 00:28:02,666 And we also, of course, 522 00:28:02,666 --> 00:28:07,366 brought with us the idea of the Adam Smith 523 00:28:07,366 --> 00:28:10,966 global market economy and John Stuart Mills 524 00:28:10,966 --> 00:28:12,633 ideas of freedom. 525 00:28:12,633 --> 00:28:17,633 And so those all combined into a kind of approach to 526 00:28:17,633 --> 00:28:19,766 North America where we decide we're going 527 00:28:19,766 --> 00:28:24,066 to emulate the old world in its destruction of its 528 00:28:24,066 --> 00:28:25,966 own charismatic animals. 529 00:28:25,966 --> 00:28:30,000 And we're going to do the same in North America in the name of 530 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,033 civilization and in the name of making the United States 531 00:28:35,033 --> 00:28:38,133 a rich and leading world power. 532 00:28:38,133 --> 00:28:41,533 And we do so essentially by turning North America 533 00:28:41,533 --> 00:28:45,500 into a congress of market resources, 534 00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:50,800 and that includes beavers, fur seals, sea otters, 535 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,300 passenger pigeons, great orcs. 536 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,633 I mean, the list goes on and on and on. 537 00:28:56,633 --> 00:28:59,200 And of course, it includes bison as well. 538 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,300 I mean, to me, one of the striking sort of summations of 539 00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:06,666 this is the passenger pigeon story. 540 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:09,500 Those birds had been in North America 541 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,266 for 15 million years. 542 00:29:12,266 --> 00:29:17,400 They could not survive 400 years of our presence here. 543 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:23,933 And bison, which had been here for at least 150,000 and 544 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:30,166 perhaps 300,000 years were in the same situation between 1800 545 00:29:30,166 --> 00:29:32,633 and basically the 1890s. 546 00:29:32,633 --> 00:29:37,200 We managed to shrink them from at least 30 million animals 547 00:29:37,566 --> 00:29:43,033 down to, as Ken mentioned, just a few score that were left, 548 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:47,166 so few that conservationists worried whether there was 549 00:29:47,166 --> 00:29:50,533 enough genetic variability to really be able to save 550 00:29:50,533 --> 00:29:52,533 them for the future. 551 00:29:52,533 --> 00:29:54,933 So, it's a, it's a story that I think we've 552 00:29:54,933 --> 00:29:56,700 never really confronted. 553 00:29:57,466 --> 00:30:01,733 WOODRUFF: And Jason, how do you come at this question of why 554 00:30:01,733 --> 00:30:04,766 this destructive force on the part of Americans? 555 00:30:06,166 --> 00:30:09,266 BALDES: I think it's a notion of exploitation. 556 00:30:09,266 --> 00:30:11,933 As others have mentioned, 557 00:30:11,933 --> 00:30:15,166 this-this country was-was founded. 558 00:30:15,166 --> 00:30:18,966 And then what we've done is plow up, pave over, 559 00:30:18,966 --> 00:30:21,300 fence in-fence out, you know, 560 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:23,366 one of the get on airplanes and fly east. 561 00:30:23,366 --> 00:30:25,433 And you look down and all you see is-is 562 00:30:25,433 --> 00:30:28,133 checkerboard and agriculture. 563 00:30:28,133 --> 00:30:32,133 So, the-the idea of exploitation or being able to 564 00:30:32,133 --> 00:30:35,833 extract resources or, you know, provide, 565 00:30:36,133 --> 00:30:39,300 you know, put livestock on the ground to-to raise 566 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:41,466 for your livelihood, 567 00:30:41,466 --> 00:30:45,366 those were kind of foreign notions of land use. 568 00:30:45,366 --> 00:30:49,233 And that was forced upon us tribes as our lands were 569 00:30:49,233 --> 00:30:53,500 diminished in those treaties and promises were broken, 570 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:55,733 we were forced into agriculture, 571 00:30:55,733 --> 00:30:57,066 or we would lose our land. 572 00:30:57,066 --> 00:30:59,800 And a lot of that included livestock production. 573 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,633 And so, challenging some of these land use paradigms and 574 00:31:04,633 --> 00:31:10,166 the ideas of exploitation are still a bit foreign as we think 575 00:31:10,166 --> 00:31:14,033 about restoring our languages, restoring our culture, 576 00:31:14,033 --> 00:31:17,166 revitalizing our connection to buffalo. 577 00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:20,266 It's much more ecological, it's much more holistic, 578 00:31:20,266 --> 00:31:24,400 and it kind of gets us back to some semblance of that, that, 579 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,366 that wildlife economy or buffalo economy that is more 580 00:31:29,366 --> 00:31:31,866 restorative rather than exploitative. 581 00:31:32,666 --> 00:31:36,100 And so, I think as we think about including indigenous 582 00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:39,266 perspectives in land use and management, 583 00:31:39,266 --> 00:31:43,100 we can draw from that ecological relationship. 584 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,333 You know, when we protected wolves and 585 00:31:45,333 --> 00:31:46,666 bears on the reservation, 586 00:31:46,666 --> 00:31:49,400 it was because our elders told us that those wolves 587 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,333 and bears taught us a lot about how to be good human 588 00:31:52,333 --> 00:31:55,066 beings where we get our medicines from, 589 00:31:55,066 --> 00:31:58,900 and that they have a right to be here as much as we do. 590 00:31:59,866 --> 00:32:02,733 And so, it kind of gets to Dan's point about, you know, 591 00:32:02,733 --> 00:32:07,200 we as human beings being part of this ecosystem rather than 592 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,700 being above it or the only ones who can dictate it. 593 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,833 So, it's-it's much more of an opportunity for us, I think, 594 00:32:15,833 --> 00:32:19,033 to engage what we call now traditional ecological 595 00:32:19,033 --> 00:32:23,300 knowledge or Indigenous science because Indigenous people were 596 00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:24,833 we're very good scientists, 597 00:32:24,833 --> 00:32:27,733 but it was based in a different philosophy, 598 00:32:27,733 --> 00:32:31,266 one of interconnectedness and-and reciprocity. 599 00:32:31,966 --> 00:32:35,000 So, I think, you know, we need to consider those 600 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,533 types of perspectives more today. 601 00:32:37,533 --> 00:32:40,100 WOODRUFF: And Ken is as someone who's spent your 602 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,800 life telling the American story, 603 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,466 how hard has it been to confront that the 604 00:32:46,466 --> 00:32:50,266 ugly side as well as the-the wonderful side 605 00:32:50,266 --> 00:32:52,066 we all like to celebrate? 606 00:32:52,533 --> 00:32:54,666 BURNS: Well, you know, I think it's been there, Judy, 607 00:32:54,666 --> 00:32:57,600 all along in almost all the stories we've tried to tell. 608 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,900 Here it is so pronounced because it is us deciding 609 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:04,500 that we're the dominant species, 610 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,333 that we don't have to live in harmony, 611 00:33:06,333 --> 00:33:08,466 that these animals, particularly the buffalo, 612 00:33:08,466 --> 00:33:11,700 are not our kin, but something else. 613 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:15,866 And-and we have an acquisitive and a rapacious sort of 614 00:33:15,866 --> 00:33:19,833 attitude towards the continent that we were taming. 615 00:33:19,833 --> 00:33:22,000 And even that in itself, 616 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,100 the notion of taming and the fact that this animal is 617 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:29,000 so intricately intertwined with the story of native peoples. 618 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,733 You know, we-we think of this story is as in three acts 619 00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:35,233 and our film is just the first two acts. 620 00:33:35,233 --> 00:33:37,966 The first is the buffalo and their interrelationship and 621 00:33:37,966 --> 00:33:41,000 then their destruction and then the saving of it as 622 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,300 a species on the brink of extinction. 623 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,600 But the next act is really where it's all going to happen. 624 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,733 And Roz and Dan and Jason are on the front lines of 625 00:33:51,733 --> 00:33:54,633 that story and are going to be able to take it. 626 00:33:54,633 --> 00:33:57,400 The next hurdle to get to the next space where it's 627 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,666 okay to save it. 628 00:33:58,666 --> 00:34:01,166 But what are we going to do after it's saved? 629 00:34:01,166 --> 00:34:05,500 What kind of ecologies and ecosystems are we going to 630 00:34:05,500 --> 00:34:09,233 practice and create in order to make sure that at 631 00:34:09,233 --> 00:34:12,500 least part of this American Serengeti is 632 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,966 returned to what it once was or a semblance of 633 00:34:15,966 --> 00:34:19,533 what it once was, not just with the megafauna, 634 00:34:19,533 --> 00:34:22,366 but with all of the flora that Roz is talking about, 635 00:34:22,366 --> 00:34:25,933 all of those plants that grow in the disturbed areas. 636 00:34:25,933 --> 00:34:29,100 What a wonderful gift that would be if we could sort of 637 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:33,933 arrest our own tendencies and try to see things or 638 00:34:33,933 --> 00:34:37,733 try to yield and-and permit our-our brothers 639 00:34:37,733 --> 00:34:41,400 and sisters here to tell us now how we might do it 640 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,200 a little bit better than the disastrous way 641 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:45,900 we've done heretofore. 642 00:34:46,366 --> 00:34:48,600 WOODRUFF: Well, that is a perfect point at which to turn 643 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,166 to our third and our final clip from the film. 644 00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:55,566 Although they came perilously close to extinction, 645 00:34:55,566 --> 00:34:57,766 the buffalo survived. 646 00:34:57,766 --> 00:34:59,900 As we see in this next clip, 647 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:04,000 by the early 1900's there was a growing national recognition 648 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,833 of the need to preserve the buffalo... 649 00:35:07,066 --> 00:35:10,666 Even with an unclear understanding of how to do that 650 00:35:10,666 --> 00:35:14,233 and a recognition of the buffalo's special role 651 00:35:14,233 --> 00:35:15,733 in American identity. 652 00:35:19,933 --> 00:35:23,133 NARRATOR: In 1913, the United States came out with a 653 00:35:23,133 --> 00:35:25,166 new design for the nickel, 654 00:35:25,433 --> 00:35:28,066 done by the sculptor James Earle Fraser. 655 00:35:29,266 --> 00:35:31,200 Fraser said he wanted a coin 656 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,400 "that could not be mistaken for any other country's coin." 657 00:35:35,833 --> 00:35:38,633 On one side, the new nickel showed the profile 658 00:35:38,633 --> 00:35:40,666 of an American Indian. 659 00:35:41,433 --> 00:35:43,800 On the other was an American buffalo, 660 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,466 modeled after a bison Fraser saw in New York City's 661 00:35:47,466 --> 00:35:48,966 Central Park Menagerie. 662 00:35:50,766 --> 00:35:53,166 RINELLA: We know its name, it was called "Black Diamond." 663 00:35:53,166 --> 00:35:55,366 And it lived in a cage. 664 00:35:55,366 --> 00:35:57,466 And he uses it as his model. 665 00:35:58,266 --> 00:36:01,400 And it was sold to a butcher. 666 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,800 And the model for the buffalo head nickel was 667 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,733 processed and parted out, and sold as meat, 668 00:36:08,666 --> 00:36:11,366 in the Meatpacking District in Manhattan. 669 00:36:12,833 --> 00:36:15,900 And it opens up this idea of just how conflicted 670 00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:17,466 the symbol is. 671 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,333 We look at it and we see a symbol of wilderness and 672 00:36:24,333 --> 00:36:27,133 a symbol of the wanton destruction of wilderness. 673 00:36:29,033 --> 00:36:32,300 You look at that old nickel, there's a buffalo. 674 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,666 At one time, they almost wiped them to extinction. 675 00:36:36,866 --> 00:36:39,900 Why did the European put that buffalo on that nickel? 676 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,366 Was it just a curiosity or was it something that kind of meant 677 00:36:43,366 --> 00:36:45,966 something to them in an odd way. 678 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:51,866 So, in my confusion, and my need to understand is: 679 00:36:55,733 --> 00:37:00,866 do you have to destroy the things you love? 680 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:08,033 NARRATOR: By 1933, the Am erican Bison Society reported 681 00:37:08,033 --> 00:37:14,500 that 4,404 buffalo existed in 121 herds in 682 00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:18,300 41 different states. 683 00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,033 Half of them were grazing in now nine 684 00:37:21,033 --> 00:37:22,866 government-protected herds. 685 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,333 Compared to the millions of buffalo that 686 00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:29,733 had once covered the Plains, those were tiny numbers; 687 00:37:30,233 --> 00:37:33,733 but enough, and in enough different places, 688 00:37:33,733 --> 00:37:37,866 that the Bison Society began making plans to disband, 689 00:37:37,866 --> 00:37:41,233 declaring that the American buffalo was finally 690 00:37:41,233 --> 00:37:43,166 safe from extinction. 691 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,766 O'BRIEN: This Society was successful, 692 00:37:48,766 --> 00:37:52,200 but their understanding of the problem was 693 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,300 really short-sighted. 694 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,766 They didn't know about ecosystems. 695 00:37:57,766 --> 00:37:59,533 They thought, if you've got a buffalo, 696 00:37:59,533 --> 00:38:01,133 you've saved him. 697 00:38:01,133 --> 00:38:02,733 That's not it. 698 00:38:02,733 --> 00:38:05,100 You've got to save their habitat. 699 00:38:07,566 --> 00:38:10,600 NARRATOR: That same spring of 1933, 700 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,000 75 calves were born on the Na tional Bison Range in Montana. 701 00:38:16,833 --> 00:38:21,600 One of them, a little bull, had blue eyes and white hair, 702 00:38:22,066 --> 00:38:24,166 a genetic rarity. 703 00:38:24,166 --> 00:38:30,633 PABLO: A white buffalo is so sacred and so full of hope, 704 00:38:31,566 --> 00:38:34,600 and goodwill for the tribes. 705 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,633 Just a huge blessing. 706 00:38:37,633 --> 00:38:41,100 It was a tremendous gift from Creator. 707 00:38:44,533 --> 00:38:46,766 NARRATOR: The staff at the Bison Range called the 708 00:38:46,766 --> 00:38:49,500 little bull "Whitey" at first, 709 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:51,666 and its presence turned the preserve into a 710 00:38:51,666 --> 00:38:55,100 tourist attraction for a while. 711 00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:57,433 But to the Salish, Kootenai, 712 00:38:57,433 --> 00:39:00,500 and Pend d'Oreilles on the Flathead reservation, 713 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:03,300 and to virtually all other Native tribes, 714 00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:07,400 a white buffalo was mo re than a statistical oddity. 715 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,900 It had special spiritual power and sacred meaning. 716 00:39:11,733 --> 00:39:14,633 It was considered "big medicine" 717 00:39:14,633 --> 00:39:17,366 and that became his name. 718 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,666 PABLO: I was three years old. 719 00:39:19,666 --> 00:39:23,300 My grandpa and my dad took me to the bison range and 720 00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:24,633 wanted me to touch him. 721 00:39:24,633 --> 00:39:26,500 He was so old; 722 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:31,066 he stood inside this fence, and he didn't move. 723 00:39:31,066 --> 00:39:33,800 I touched him and I thought he would be soft, 724 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,500 his head, like, my teddy bear. 725 00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:38,833 And it was bristly. 726 00:39:39,066 --> 00:39:41,033 And that was my first impression, 727 00:39:41,033 --> 00:39:44,333 was he's big and I love his eyes. 728 00:39:44,333 --> 00:39:45,666 And he's bristly. 729 00:39:50,766 --> 00:39:52,433 WOODRUFF: And so, at some point, 730 00:39:52,433 --> 00:39:55,100 the tide turned in this country. 731 00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,666 Roz, I want to ask you, 732 00:39:57,666 --> 00:40:02,300 what is your understanding of when things began to turn, 733 00:40:02,533 --> 00:40:07,133 when-when there was a wider understanding 734 00:40:07,133 --> 00:40:10,866 that the Americans had gone too far in what they'd 735 00:40:10,866 --> 00:40:12,066 done to the buffalo? 736 00:40:13,766 --> 00:40:16,233 LaPIER: Yeah, I mean, it really was this early kind of 737 00:40:16,233 --> 00:40:19,433 20th century and late 19th century that we saw 738 00:40:19,433 --> 00:40:22,233 this kind of change over in America that 739 00:40:22,233 --> 00:40:24,066 started really in the east, 740 00:40:24,066 --> 00:40:27,066 as has been, is when people see the film. 741 00:40:27,066 --> 00:40:28,666 It's mentioned in the film. 742 00:40:28,666 --> 00:40:31,433 You know, there's this story of people from the East Coast who 743 00:40:31,433 --> 00:40:34,633 are beginning to look towards the West, 744 00:40:34,633 --> 00:40:38,366 began to see it in a different with a different viewpoint, 745 00:40:38,366 --> 00:40:43,033 even nostalgically of what is what they've lost and thinking 746 00:40:43,033 --> 00:40:46,800 about how they can address that. 747 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,033 At the same time period, 748 00:40:49,033 --> 00:40:52,400 Indigenous people themselves are transitioning, right? 749 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,400 They're transitioning from living, 750 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,166 having that lifestyle of living with bison for those thousands 751 00:40:59,166 --> 00:41:02,566 of years to now living mostly on reservations, 752 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,966 but also in other communities and no longer being in this 753 00:41:06,966 --> 00:41:10,666 world where bison is very central to their lifeways and 754 00:41:10,666 --> 00:41:13,100 their religion again and their religious practice. 755 00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:16,633 One of the things that I learned from looking at the 756 00:41:16,633 --> 00:41:19,166 stories of my grandparents and looking at 757 00:41:19,166 --> 00:41:21,433 the stories of their parents, 758 00:41:21,966 --> 00:41:25,400 is that what Indigenous people wanted to share with 759 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,366 these same folks like George Bird Grinnell and his, 760 00:41:29,366 --> 00:41:32,600 and his "Forest and Stream" magazine, 761 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,700 and the folks that he published there was that 762 00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:39,066 Indigenous people wanted to tell their story even then in 763 00:41:39,066 --> 00:41:40,533 the early 20th century. 764 00:41:40,533 --> 00:41:43,866 And what Indigenous people were sharing was this deep, 765 00:41:43,866 --> 00:41:47,033 long relationship with the natural world, 766 00:41:47,033 --> 00:41:50,766 with that connection through religion and religious practice 767 00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:54,533 and how they thought about a lot of different parts 768 00:41:54,533 --> 00:41:55,633 of the natural world. 769 00:41:55,633 --> 00:41:58,166 But including that story with Bison, 770 00:41:58,166 --> 00:42:01,100 as Dan has already mentioned, you know, 771 00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:03,066 one of the things that Indigenous people thought about 772 00:42:03,066 --> 00:42:07,166 bison differently is that they were kin and that was 773 00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:09,500 a literal relationship. 774 00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:11,833 WOODRUFF: Jason, what about that? 775 00:42:11,833 --> 00:42:14,400 I mean, how do you pick up on this, 776 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,200 this complicated and partly ugly, 777 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,433 certainly beautiful over thousands of years, 778 00:42:20,766 --> 00:42:24,833 but in more, more recent times, not a pretty story at all. 779 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,433 How do you how do you pick up the story from here? 780 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:32,700 BALDES: Well, we have to consider that there's 350,000 781 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:35,400 bison now, but they're-they're essentially in the commercial 782 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,900 meat market, so they're ranched animals. 783 00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:43,800 The Department of Interior manages some conservation herds. 784 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,333 And then there's the tribes, you know, 785 00:42:46,333 --> 00:42:49,033 working to restore buffalo back to our communities through 786 00:42:49,033 --> 00:42:52,433 organizations like the Intertribal Buffalo Council. 787 00:42:52,433 --> 00:42:57,600 But there is a wide spectrum of-of restoration efforts 788 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,433 across Indian Country and across private lands and 789 00:43:01,433 --> 00:43:03,133 across public lands. 790 00:43:03,133 --> 00:43:05,000 And really the, you know, 791 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,200 the buffalo is still ecologically extinct. 792 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,100 It doesn't exist in large numbers on large habitats. 793 00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,966 And from a conservation perspective, you know, 794 00:43:13,966 --> 00:43:18,433 that's a very important effort to get animals restored 795 00:43:18,433 --> 00:43:21,666 from their ecological keystone role on the landscape, 796 00:43:21,666 --> 00:43:27,400 but also ensure that you know, we're thinking about the-the 797 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,066 important genetics of places like Yellowstone. 798 00:43:31,066 --> 00:43:35,200 The, were the-the remnants of those once vast herds 799 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,200 where those genetics exist and ensuring that we can 800 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,366 get those animals out for the genetic heterogeneity, 801 00:43:42,366 --> 00:43:45,633 improving our overall herd health and the bison species 802 00:43:45,633 --> 00:43:52,366 itself are restored in a way that allows them to exist for 803 00:43:52,366 --> 00:43:56,033 us the way the one above intended. 804 00:43:56,033 --> 00:44:00,333 And that relationship that we as people have 805 00:44:00,333 --> 00:44:02,366 with that animal, restoring that, 806 00:44:02,366 --> 00:44:06,600 ensuring that our young people understand the complex history, 807 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,333 but also our role now as caretakers, that-that, 808 00:44:10,333 --> 00:44:12,266 you know, buffalo took care of us, 809 00:44:12,266 --> 00:44:14,400 now it's our turn to take care of them. 810 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,100 And in that, we have to restore land that's land acquisition. 811 00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:23,433 And we also have to change how many of our lands get utilized. 812 00:44:23,433 --> 00:44:26,200 Many of our lands on our on our reservation have been 813 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,133 prioritized for-for cattle production, 814 00:44:29,133 --> 00:44:32,766 despite them being on an Indian reservation so 815 00:44:32,766 --> 00:44:35,466 challenging the status quo and-and 816 00:44:35,466 --> 00:44:36,966 thinking about a new future. 817 00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:39,100 You know, the majority of our young people are 818 00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:41,633 not farming and ranching and they're not going 819 00:44:41,633 --> 00:44:44,666 to go into that any more than our grandma's and grandpa's 820 00:44:44,666 --> 00:44:47,466 wanted to 100 some years ago. 821 00:44:47,466 --> 00:44:50,733 So how do we create a better future for our people 822 00:44:50,733 --> 00:44:52,300 and for our communities? 823 00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:55,266 You know, restoring that relationship 824 00:44:55,266 --> 00:44:57,833 to buffalo is one way, 825 00:44:57,833 --> 00:45:01,366 and that is foundational to who we are. 826 00:45:01,366 --> 00:45:04,166 It's in our songs, it's in our ceremonies. 827 00:45:04,166 --> 00:45:06,133 For the very first time this year, 828 00:45:06,133 --> 00:45:08,733 we've been able to harvest our own animals for 829 00:45:08,733 --> 00:45:10,800 our annual Sundance's. 830 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,066 Is that's a very critical step in restoring that relationship 831 00:45:16,066 --> 00:45:19,366 and ensuring that that that meat, 832 00:45:19,366 --> 00:45:23,466 which is the most nutritious, the highest in protein, 833 00:45:23,466 --> 00:45:26,066 minerals, and vitamins and-and lowest in 834 00:45:26,066 --> 00:45:27,366 fat and cholesterol, 835 00:45:27,366 --> 00:45:29,633 that that is essentially a way for us to 836 00:45:29,633 --> 00:45:32,366 help do away with diabetes, heart disease. 837 00:45:33,233 --> 00:45:36,333 So, as we restore them to the land which they obviously 838 00:45:36,333 --> 00:45:38,433 heal as a keystone species, 839 00:45:38,433 --> 00:45:40,433 they in turn will begin to heal us 840 00:45:40,433 --> 00:45:42,566 as-as we restore that relationship. 841 00:45:43,666 --> 00:45:48,033 WOODRUFF: The circle of life is and, you know, 842 00:45:48,033 --> 00:45:51,933 as you've so eloquently put it, Dan, 843 00:45:51,933 --> 00:45:55,700 I want to come back to you why does it matter that 844 00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:58,700 we care about what happens to the buffalo? 845 00:46:00,066 --> 00:46:05,366 FLORES: I've long thought that when buffalo were finally gone, 846 00:46:06,033 --> 00:46:10,533 and this would certainly have been true for almost all 847 00:46:10,933 --> 00:46:14,866 Native people who had been engaged with buffalo for-for 848 00:46:14,866 --> 00:46:17,200 so many centuries. 849 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,133 That and certainly true, I think, 850 00:46:19,133 --> 00:46:21,266 for the America and the emerging 851 00:46:21,266 --> 00:46:24,166 American conservation community. 852 00:46:24,166 --> 00:46:29,500 It was as if some titanic sound that reached 853 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,566 to the heavens had stopped just at the moment 854 00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:38,066 that we turned to listen to it. 855 00:46:38,066 --> 00:46:42,966 And it was a shock, I think, to many people... 856 00:46:42,966 --> 00:46:46,466 Obviously, Native people were-were the ones who bore 857 00:46:46,466 --> 00:46:52,066 the brunt of the effect of losing that titanic sound. 858 00:46:52,066 --> 00:46:55,666 But many other people felt it as well. 859 00:46:55,966 --> 00:46:57,366 I think that's why we ended up with an 860 00:46:57,366 --> 00:47:00,300 American Bison Society 861 00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:04,966 that attempted to restore buffalo or at least preserve 862 00:47:04,966 --> 00:47:08,566 them as an emblem of what we had lost. 863 00:47:08,566 --> 00:47:13,233 But that's essentially about as far as their thinking ever got. 864 00:47:13,933 --> 00:47:15,566 I mean, to me, 865 00:47:15,566 --> 00:47:18,800 one of the things that was happening in America 866 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,666 at this time is that we were still tending to model 867 00:47:21,666 --> 00:47:26,900 ourselves after the old world after Great Britain and France 868 00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:31,566 and Germany and all those countries had lost 869 00:47:31,566 --> 00:47:35,133 all their big, wild, charismatic animals. 870 00:47:35,133 --> 00:47:37,600 And even though Teddy Roosevelt had 871 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,100 implemented this great new Public Lands System 872 00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:43,233 that allowed the United States to do something 873 00:47:43,233 --> 00:47:47,166 completely different, to actually preserve some of 874 00:47:47,166 --> 00:47:51,866 our really big creature's wolves, bears, bison, 875 00:47:51,866 --> 00:47:54,266 if we had allowed it, elk. 876 00:47:54,266 --> 00:47:56,433 Bison certainly represented, 877 00:47:56,433 --> 00:47:59,300 as I think Frazier's nickel indicated, 878 00:47:59,966 --> 00:48:03,733 that it was the creature that much of the world associated 879 00:48:03,733 --> 00:48:05,300 with the United States. 880 00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:08,566 That's why the bison has become our national mammal here 881 00:48:08,566 --> 00:48:10,366 in the last decade. 882 00:48:10,366 --> 00:48:15,700 But we didn't want to allow it to be a wild creature. 883 00:48:16,366 --> 00:48:21,233 And that kind of becomes the-the story that takes 884 00:48:21,233 --> 00:48:23,300 us up to the present. 885 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,066 WOODRUFF: Ken Burns, there's so much to think about here. 886 00:48:28,066 --> 00:48:32,233 What-what ultimately do you want your, 887 00:48:32,766 --> 00:48:34,766 you want Americans who are watching this, 888 00:48:34,766 --> 00:48:39,066 anybody watching this film, to know about the buffalo... 889 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,066 Its relationship to this country and how we should think 890 00:48:43,066 --> 00:48:45,533 about it going into the future? 891 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:50,000 BURNS: Well, let me just riff off Dan for a second and 892 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,533 just go back to that 1913 nickel, right. 893 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,433 On both sides of that coin that we are now beginning to 894 00:48:58,433 --> 00:49:01,966 fetishize the Native American and the buffalo. 895 00:49:01,966 --> 00:49:03,733 We're now missing them. 896 00:49:03,733 --> 00:49:05,000 There's something lost. 897 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,033 It's a, it's-it's obscene in a way. 898 00:49:08,033 --> 00:49:11,933 We've spent the last century doing everything we can 899 00:49:11,933 --> 00:49:13,833 to eliminate both. 900 00:49:13,833 --> 00:49:17,300 And our buffalo policy and our Native American policy 901 00:49:17,300 --> 00:49:21,733 are intertwined and they're designed to reduce the 902 00:49:21,733 --> 00:49:26,066 buffalo to nothing and to reduce Native Americans 903 00:49:26,066 --> 00:49:29,666 to reservations and change entirely their way of life. 904 00:49:30,466 --> 00:49:32,066 Somewhere along the line, 905 00:49:32,066 --> 00:49:35,700 there were a few people that were beginning to-to 906 00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:37,933 realize they needed to make a journey. 907 00:49:37,933 --> 00:49:40,366 You know, you can go back to Theodore Roosevelt, 908 00:49:40,366 --> 00:49:43,200 who comes down to us is the greatest conservation president. 909 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,933 He was not there before. 910 00:49:44,933 --> 00:49:48,566 He did not have any respect for native peoples whatsoever. 911 00:49:48,566 --> 00:49:53,400 He assumed that the buffalo's extermination would heed the 912 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,166 ability to assimilate Native Americans into our culture. 913 00:49:57,166 --> 00:49:58,633 And he had to learn. 914 00:49:58,633 --> 00:50:01,966 And so, I think in the arc of the life of Theodore Roosevelt, 915 00:50:01,966 --> 00:50:05,400 it's not just he arrives on the scene fully evolved 916 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,166 that this is a journey that we have to take. 917 00:50:08,166 --> 00:50:10,333 WOODRUFF: Roz, I mean, 918 00:50:10,333 --> 00:50:15,200 where do you see this going with-with Native Americans 919 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,400 in relationship to the buffalo and in relationship 920 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,900 to this country? 921 00:50:20,433 --> 00:50:22,366 LaPIER: Yeah, I mean, it's-it's I think it's, 922 00:50:22,366 --> 00:50:26,600 is a great time to really, again, look at our past, right? 923 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,800 But I think that in looking at past actions 924 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,700 of American citizens, we also then, 925 00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:37,200 to look further back, and look at the Indigenous people 926 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:38,766 that were here... 927 00:50:38,766 --> 00:50:41,433 Look at their landscape management practices. 928 00:50:41,433 --> 00:50:44,433 Look at the relationships that they had with the world around 929 00:50:44,433 --> 00:50:46,300 them and the natural world. 930 00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:48,666 The first thing that needs to happen is we need to have 931 00:50:48,666 --> 00:50:49,800 the land right. 932 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,133 We need to have healthy land, 933 00:50:52,133 --> 00:50:55,166 a large landscapes, good habitat. 934 00:50:55,166 --> 00:50:57,800 And for at least for the bison, 935 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,466 a lot of different prairie grasses that they eat. 936 00:51:00,466 --> 00:51:04,433 And so, when we think about bison and Dan's really 937 00:51:04,433 --> 00:51:06,466 great story about, you know, 938 00:51:06,466 --> 00:51:09,166 let's ask the bison what they want. 939 00:51:09,166 --> 00:51:10,733 And yes, they want to come back, 940 00:51:10,733 --> 00:51:12,666 but not as cows, not as cattle. 941 00:51:12,666 --> 00:51:14,700 They do want to be free. 942 00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:19,366 But for that to occur, for them to be truly animals 943 00:51:19,366 --> 00:51:22,333 that get returned to the American landscape, 944 00:51:22,333 --> 00:51:27,333 they need large areas for them to be able to do that. 945 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,000 We still don't have that, as has been mentioned by Jason. 946 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,300 You know, a lot of the practices we have today is that 947 00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:40,966 bison are on these very small parcels of land where 948 00:51:40,966 --> 00:51:44,866 they are allowed to be free but still very small. 949 00:51:44,866 --> 00:51:47,766 And so, we need to start thinking bigger when we, 950 00:51:47,766 --> 00:51:49,400 when we think about this. 951 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,433 And I think that we are at a point in our history in America 952 00:51:53,433 --> 00:51:56,566 where there are a lot of people who are interested 953 00:51:56,566 --> 00:51:57,766 in all of these things, 954 00:51:57,766 --> 00:52:01,700 interested in looking at Indigenous knowledge as a tool, 955 00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:03,800 as a management tool, 956 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,266 and looking at our past as America and really thinking 957 00:52:08,266 --> 00:52:12,333 about it seriously and thinking about how to address 958 00:52:12,333 --> 00:52:15,166 some of those things that have happened in 959 00:52:15,166 --> 00:52:18,133 the past and then that kind of hope for the future 960 00:52:18,133 --> 00:52:21,700 only because we understand these things so much better. 961 00:52:21,700 --> 00:52:23,366 WOODRUFF: And finally, to you, Jason, 962 00:52:23,366 --> 00:52:25,666 is that a future that Roslyn describes, 963 00:52:25,666 --> 00:52:27,633 that that is likely? 964 00:52:27,633 --> 00:52:30,466 That's-that's more than possible, but it's probable? 965 00:52:31,833 --> 00:52:35,133 BALDES: I certainly am optimistic that it is 966 00:52:35,133 --> 00:52:38,933 organizations like the Intertribal Buffalo Council, 967 00:52:38,933 --> 00:52:42,766 you know, now with 83 member tribes across the country. 968 00:52:42,766 --> 00:52:46,266 ITBC is a 30-year-old organization that's restored 969 00:52:46,266 --> 00:52:50,600 25,000 buffalo to 65 herds in 20 states. 970 00:52:51,366 --> 00:52:53,666 There, that efforts going to continue. 971 00:52:53,666 --> 00:52:58,166 Our main goal there at ITBC is to restore buffalo to 972 00:52:58,166 --> 00:53:01,600 Indian Country for the cultural and spiritual purposes, 973 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,066 and that's going to continue to increase. 974 00:53:04,066 --> 00:53:07,500 We want to get buffalo into our school lunch programs. 975 00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:11,066 We want to provide it for our community and elder programs. 976 00:53:11,066 --> 00:53:14,600 And then there's-there's the conservation effort. 977 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,066 You know, there's of organizations like the 978 00:53:17,066 --> 00:53:20,700 National Wildlife Federation, you know, really strategically 979 00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:23,400 working to support the sovereignty and 980 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,700 self-determination of tribes across the country. 981 00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:30,366 Other conservation NGOs are doing the same. 982 00:53:30,366 --> 00:53:34,233 We have federal directives now at the at the national level 983 00:53:34,233 --> 00:53:38,733 working to support tribal buffalo restoration. 984 00:53:38,733 --> 00:53:41,500 We need to, you know, enhance that and continue to 985 00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:43,266 build from there. 986 00:53:43,266 --> 00:53:46,633 You know, and I think what we're doing in terms of 987 00:53:46,633 --> 00:53:50,133 restoring the buffalo to various landscapes across 988 00:53:50,133 --> 00:53:54,266 Indian Country can really permeate what opportunities we 989 00:53:54,266 --> 00:53:56,533 can create on public lands. 990 00:53:56,533 --> 00:53:59,100 And there's a lot of discussion about that, 991 00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:01,933 especially out west, where, you know, 992 00:54:01,933 --> 00:54:06,166 many of our lands have been prioritized for-for 993 00:54:06,166 --> 00:54:10,066 economic reasons and exploitative reasons. 994 00:54:10,066 --> 00:54:12,933 And as we kind of, you know, 995 00:54:12,933 --> 00:54:16,033 rehash what it is we want to see by bringing 996 00:54:16,033 --> 00:54:19,066 science in and technology and thinking more 997 00:54:19,066 --> 00:54:23,833 ecologically that there's elements that we can, 998 00:54:23,833 --> 00:54:28,333 we can bring together and really work to create a better 999 00:54:28,333 --> 00:54:30,400 future for our young people. 1000 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,466 And I think, you know, whether whatever our background is, 1001 00:54:34,466 --> 00:54:37,800 what-what tribes, nations, communities, we come from, 1002 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,566 that that's a common thread. 1003 00:54:39,566 --> 00:54:43,233 We want to create a better world for our children. 1004 00:54:43,233 --> 00:54:47,133 And so, I think that many of us do that with buffalo, 1005 00:54:47,133 --> 00:54:48,966 and we can, 1006 00:54:48,966 --> 00:54:53,933 we can use that as a model for Americans to have 1007 00:54:53,933 --> 00:54:57,533 a-a relationship, some reciprocity, 1008 00:54:57,533 --> 00:55:01,933 some understanding of our Indigenous science so that we 1009 00:55:01,933 --> 00:55:05,333 do create and leave a better world here for-for 1010 00:55:05,333 --> 00:55:06,700 the future generations. 1011 00:55:07,566 --> 00:55:09,000 WOODRUFF: And on that uplifting note, 1012 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,733 let me thank you, all four, for such a wonderful, 1013 00:55:11,733 --> 00:55:13,233 such a rich discussion. 1014 00:55:13,233 --> 00:55:14,800 Thank you so much, 1015 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,433 to Rosalyn LaPier to Dan Flores, to Jason Baldes, 1016 00:55:19,133 --> 00:55:21,866 and, of course, to our filmmaker Ken Burns. 1017 00:55:22,333 --> 00:55:24,233 Thank you, thank you so much. 1018 00:55:24,233 --> 00:55:26,166 FLORES: Thank you, Judy. BURNS: Thank you, Judy. 1019 00:55:26,366 --> 00:55:28,233 WOODRUFF: And thanks to all of you for watching. 1020 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,933 And do remember to tune into Ken's film, 1021 00:55:30,933 --> 00:55:32,566 "The American Buffalo", 1022 00:55:32,566 --> 00:55:35,166 premiering on your PBS station 1023 00:55:35,166 --> 00:55:38,666 and on the PBS app, on October 16th. 1024 00:55:39,566 --> 00:55:41,166 I'm Judy Woodruff, thank you for joining us. 1025 00:55:43,466 --> 00:56:23,900 (music plays through credits) 1026 00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:25,766 FUNDING: The Better Angels Society is proud to support 1027 00:56:25,766 --> 00:56:27,100 this presentation of 1028 00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:29,933 "The American Buffalo: A Story of Resilience" 1029 00:56:29,933 --> 00:56:32,466 part of the "Ken Burns Public Dialogue Initiative at 1030 00:56:32,466 --> 00:56:34,100 Georgetown University."