1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,500 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 2 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:13,800 This week on To The Contrary: 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,000 First, women's 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,733 gains in health, education and safety are at risk. 5 00:00:19,233 --> 00:00:23,066 Then, the stark divide among young Americans 6 00:00:23,066 --> 00:00:24,866 on marriage and parenting. 7 00:00:44,566 --> 00:00:46,500 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé. 8 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:48,133 Welcome to To The Contrary, 9 00:00:48,133 --> 00:00:50,633 a discussion of news and social trends 10 00:00:50,633 --> 00:00:52,300 from varied perspectives. 11 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:57,000 Up first: gender equality in the US and globally. 12 00:00:57,466 --> 00:01:00,766 In a new report the United Nations warns women's 13 00:01:00,766 --> 00:01:04,066 gains in health, education and safety are at risk. 14 00:01:04,333 --> 00:01:07,733 Conflict, climate change, aid cuts 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,533 and the backlash against gender equality could stall 16 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:15,033 or reverse progress on multiple fronts. 17 00:01:15,033 --> 00:01:18,600 Meanwhile a new poll shows Trump slipping 18 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,466 with Hispanic voters particularly Latinas, a key 19 00:01:22,466 --> 00:01:25,800 voting bloc for recent Republican successes. 20 00:01:26,333 --> 00:01:29,633 Joining me are former judge and federal prosecutor 21 00:01:29,833 --> 00:01:34,000 Debra Carnahan, Republican strategist Whitley Yates, 22 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,033 The Intercept's political reporter 23 00:01:37,033 --> 00:01:38,800 Jessica Washington, 24 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,833 and Washingto Examiner investigations editor 25 00:01:42,033 --> 00:01:43,300 Sarah Bedford. 26 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:46,266 So first question to you, Debra Carnahan. 27 00:01:46,266 --> 00:01:48,066 What does this report tell us about 28 00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:50,833 the state of women's rights in the U.S. 29 00:01:50,833 --> 00:01:52,266 and around the world? 30 00:01:52,266 --> 00:01:54,166 It's very alarming. 31 00:01:54,166 --> 00:01:57,033 Something that we know has been happening. 32 00:01:57,033 --> 00:01:58,566 We have been world leaders. 33 00:01:58,566 --> 00:01:59,933 I have traveled the world 34 00:01:59,933 --> 00:02:03,466 on women's issue and reproductive health issues. 35 00:02:03,933 --> 00:02:07,133 And we were looked to as, 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,533 thank you. 37 00:02:08,533 --> 00:02:09,966 Thank you for helping us. 38 00:02:09,966 --> 00:02:12,166 We'd like to be like you. 39 00:02:12,166 --> 00:02:13,466 It's very alarming 40 00:02:13,466 --> 00:02:17,800 and it's very sad particularly in our own country. 41 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,333 I think what it really shows i that progress is very fragile, 42 00:02:22,333 --> 00:02:24,133 and that the one thing 43 00:02:24,133 --> 00:02:24,700 that helps 44 00:02:25,433 --> 00:02:28,433 everyone is going to be economic stability of a nation, 45 00:02:28,433 --> 00:02:31,200 which seems to be equal opportunity for everyone. 46 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,200 So women do well 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,200 when the rest of the country is economically stable. 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,166 I find this report not surprising. 49 00:02:39,166 --> 00:02:40,800 You know, we've seen a real 50 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,566 rollback in economic investment in women in the United States 51 00:02:44,866 --> 00:02:46,333 over the course of this administration. 52 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:49,333 But you can take that back decades, for certain. 53 00:02:49,633 --> 00:02:52,766 So nothing in this is incredibly surprising. 54 00:02:52,766 --> 00:02:54,633 There's just been a real rollback, 55 00:02:54,633 --> 00:02:57,833 both in the economic investment and then also just investments 56 00:02:57,833 --> 00:03:00,900 in women's career attainment, women's health. 57 00:03:00,900 --> 00:03:03,833 So this is unfortunate, but not surprising. 58 00:03:03,833 --> 00:03:05,866 Globally, there were some concerning 59 00:03:05,866 --> 00:03:07,300 metrics in that report. 60 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:09,366 But in places like the United States 61 00:03:09,366 --> 00:03:11,333 where there are already 62 00:03:11,333 --> 00:03:14,900 lots of laws on the book that preserve women's equality 63 00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:17,400 legislatively, some of the solutions, 64 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,000 for keeping women's progress in the United States 65 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,000 might be more cultural than legislative. 66 00:03:23,233 --> 00:03:24,033 All right. So, 67 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,300 20, 30 year ago, when we started the show, 68 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:32,533 the US constantly led on women and family issues. 69 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,233 Clearly it's not happening much anymore. 70 00:03:36,533 --> 00:03:39,166 So what do we need to get going again, 71 00:03:39,166 --> 00:03:39,866 as the world's 72 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:43,600 leader on women's right and women's and families issues 73 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:47,800 Bonnie, I think it's going t take a change in the Congress. 74 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:54,033 And also, on the executive branches purview 75 00:03:54,033 --> 00:03:58,100 that they have, tha they've been dismantling so many 76 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:02,300 programs and in USAID and, and places 77 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,066 that we've helped around the world. 78 00:04:04,066 --> 00:04:07,933 I've traveled around the world extensively on women's 79 00:04:07,933 --> 00:04:11,800 reproductive and health issues, and we were leaders, 80 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,733 and they looked to u and I would feel sorry for them. 81 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:20,133 And I would talk with them and give them encouragement, 82 00:04:20,133 --> 00:04:22,200 and they would look at us like, wow, 83 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,433 you have this in your country. 84 00:04:24,433 --> 00:04:27,266 And we're slipping in that and we're probably going 85 00:04:27,266 --> 00:04:31,266 to, you know, lose our status and our ability to help 86 00:04:31,266 --> 00:04:35,466 women around the world, but also in our own country. 87 00:04:35,466 --> 00:04:38,166 We are in a crisis for women's health. 88 00:04:38,166 --> 00:04:40,366 Whitley, your thoughts, do you think, 89 00:04:40,366 --> 00:04:44,200 are we on the precipice of tumbling downhill, 90 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,366 on being one of the leader of the women's rights movements 91 00:04:48,366 --> 00:04:49,466 around the world? 92 00:04:49,466 --> 00:04:50,800 No, I'm going to be honest. 93 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,100 I think America is going to 94 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:54,700 still be at the forefront when looking at other nations 95 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:57,200 when it comes to legislation that protects women. 96 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,500 When it comes to the way in which we're able 97 00:04:59,500 --> 00:05:01,800 to participate in society. 98 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,666 We are always, and I believe we will maintain our position 99 00:05:05,666 --> 00:05:06,700 in leading the pack. 100 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:09,133 However one of the things that I think 101 00:05:09,133 --> 00:05:12,533 doesn't get talked about enoug is the maternal mortality rate 102 00:05:12,533 --> 00:05:14,233 and how that has drastically 103 00:05:14,233 --> 00:05:18,233 impacted statistics like these and what needs to happen, 104 00:05:18,433 --> 00:05:20,433 especially from administrations 105 00:05:20,433 --> 00:05:22,800 that are avid and staunch pro-life. 106 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,433 It needs to be about pro livelihood, 107 00:05:24,433 --> 00:05:26,300 and that pro livelihood also needs to be 108 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:28,566 the health of the mother, the woman having the child. 109 00:05:28,566 --> 00:05:32,233 Jessica, how much do you think this is all influenced by, 110 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,766 the various economic states of the country? 111 00:05:36,766 --> 00:05:40,500 In other words, if you're not doing well economically, 112 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,900 do such things as 113 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,966 equal justice, women's rights, etc. 114 00:05:46,966 --> 00:05:48,700 go by the wayside? Yeah. 115 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:49,233 So I think we can 116 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,633 certainly point to economic hardships globally. 117 00:05:52,633 --> 00:05:54,833 We know the Covid 19 pandemic 118 00:05:54,833 --> 00:05:58,266 had a disastrous effect on global economies. 119 00:05:58,266 --> 00:06:00,133 We know that that impacts women's rights 120 00:06:00,133 --> 00:06:03,466 and women's ability to feed themselves, 121 00:06:03,466 --> 00:06:04,700 to feed their families. 122 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:06,833 I think when you look in the US context, though, it's 123 00:06:06,833 --> 00:06:09,800 not just about the immediate economy. 124 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,500 So, you know, the Trump administration, 125 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:13,666 according to The Center for American Progress 126 00:06:13,666 --> 00:06:18,433 analysis, cut about $3 billion in investment 127 00:06:18,433 --> 00:06:21,866 in women's health and women's economic security. 128 00:06:22,066 --> 00:06:23,466 So we both have the kind of 129 00:06:23,466 --> 00:06:24,800 global economic context, 130 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,533 but we also have deliberate political choices 131 00:06:26,533 --> 00:06:27,666 that we have to look at as well. 132 00:06:27,666 --> 00:06:30,766 Sarah, your thoughts. Do you think because we're 133 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:34,566 on the precipic of what could be fairly serious 134 00:06:34,566 --> 00:06:35,633 economic problems— 135 00:06:35,633 --> 00:06:36,533 we don't know yet, 136 00:06:37,033 --> 00:06:40,700 but definitely the indicator are not heading in the direction 137 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:42,833 most of us would like to see them head in. 138 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:46,233 Do you think the US can avoid a recession? 139 00:06:46,233 --> 00:06:49,766 Do you think the US can maintain its standing as 140 00:06:50,133 --> 00:06:53,200 a country that's very favorable to women's rights? 141 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:55,766 Well, I think when you talk about whether the U.S. 142 00:06:55,766 --> 00:06:59,133 is continuing to be a leader in women's rights 143 00:06:59,133 --> 00:07:01,400 and you earlier mentioned family issues, 144 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,466 I think you have to consider what does success look like? 145 00:07:04,733 --> 00:07:07,233 This administration has been very, to borrow 146 00:07:07,233 --> 00:07:09,800 a phrase that sometimes used pejoratively, pronatalist. 147 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,633 They have really encouraged 148 00:07:11,633 --> 00:07:14,866 getting the fertility rate up, whether that's through baby 149 00:07:14,866 --> 00:07:18,633 bonuses, subsidizing child care; they've talked 150 00:07:18,633 --> 00:07:19,466 about a lot of different 151 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:23,633 policy solutions to raise the American fertility rate, 152 00:07:23,633 --> 00:07:27,100 if that is considered a sort of family issue. 153 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:29,500 And this idea that promoting marriage 154 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:31,533 in a traditional nuclear family structure 155 00:07:31,533 --> 00:07:35,266 does tend to have economic benefits for women. In that area, 156 00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:38,100 the administration is quite focused. 157 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:42,000 And if you measure the success of women's rights by things 158 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,100 like access to reproductiv health care, you would consider 159 00:07:45,333 --> 00:07:48,333 this administration a failure on that. 160 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:51,366 Well, what do you think about the fact—for example, look at China. 161 00:07:51,366 --> 00:07:53,000 China has been grappling 162 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,800 with a low birth rate for several decades now, 163 00:07:57,066 --> 00:08:00,833 and they've been trying to spur more women, more, 164 00:08:00,833 --> 00:08:05,366 more couples to have children and larger families 165 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,433 after many, many decades of not promoting that. 166 00:08:09,833 --> 00:08:11,766 Look how long it's taking China. 167 00:08:11,766 --> 00:08:12,700 How long would it take 168 00:08:13,066 --> 00:08:16,700 the United States to start building up its population? 169 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:17,066 Well, 170 00:08:18,133 --> 00:08:19,300 I think China is i a slightly different situation 171 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:20,933 than the United States in that their birth rate 172 00:08:20,933 --> 00:08:22,466 was kept artificially low 173 00:08:22,466 --> 00:08:25,100 by government policies for so many years, 174 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:28,333 and reversing this sor of economic and cultural damage 175 00:08:28,333 --> 00:08:30,800 that the one child policy did do in China. 176 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:31,600 That's not the— 177 00:08:31,866 --> 00:08:34,066 the starting point for the United States, 178 00:08:34,066 --> 00:08:36,766 but the United States government is competing 179 00:08:36,766 --> 00:08:39,666 with a lot of different, perverse incentives 180 00:08:39,666 --> 00:08:40,766 for growing families. 181 00:08:40,766 --> 00:08:41,966 The opportunity cost 182 00:08:41,966 --> 00:08:45,866 of having a famil has never been higher for women. 183 00:08:45,866 --> 00:08:48,300 The opportunity cost of leaving the workforce 184 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:50,366 or finding a way to pay for childcare. 185 00:08:50,366 --> 00:08:54,133 So there are really complicated issues throughout the economy 186 00:08:54,133 --> 00:08:55,533 that isn't just, 187 00:08:55,533 --> 00:08:59,100 you know—a one time payment can't fix those structural 188 00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:01,166 economic issues that are driving women away 189 00:09:01,166 --> 00:09:02,500 from starting families. 190 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:03,700 So what do you think, 191 00:09:03,700 --> 00:09:06,866 if you were President Trump or one of his aides, 192 00:09:06,866 --> 00:09:11,166 what would you do to spur mor families to have more children? 193 00:09:11,166 --> 00:09:12,366 I was gonna say, well, first of all, 194 00:09:12,366 --> 00:09:16,233 I think, you know, I'm not hearing policies— 195 00:09:17,533 --> 00:09:19,966 very few a very few were just mentioned, 196 00:09:19,966 --> 00:09:24,866 about supporting families and women in particular, 197 00:09:24,866 --> 00:09:25,800 that studies 198 00:09:26,166 --> 00:09:29,933 for so many years have shown that while women work outside 199 00:09:29,933 --> 00:09:32,800 the home, which has become a necessary 200 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,600 thing economically speaking. 201 00:09:36,833 --> 00:09:40,900 You know, there's a crisis in being able 202 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:45,533 to afford childcare, you know and you're talking about people. 203 00:09:45,733 --> 00:09:48,000 You want to keep the minimum wage low 204 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,366 and it isn't affordable to go out and work 205 00:09:51,833 --> 00:09:54,433 to try and make money for your family 206 00:09:54,433 --> 00:09:57,966 because the mone goes out the door for childcare. 207 00:09:58,166 --> 00:10:01,066 So it's great to say— What's better, to 208 00:10:01,066 --> 00:10:04,966 let your famil have many children and live in 209 00:10:05,233 --> 00:10:08,700 even more serious poverty than if you just had 1 or 2? 210 00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:12,100 Yeah, I just, 211 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:14,400 I'm not seeing any programs 212 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,400 being implemented to support families. 213 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,066 There are some going on in states. 214 00:10:21,066 --> 00:10:24,033 I think recently, wasn't it New Mexico 215 00:10:24,033 --> 00:10:26,633 that said there would be free childcare? 216 00:10:26,633 --> 00:10:29,000 I mean, that's historic. 217 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,966 I'm not saying that can happen in every state. 218 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,933 I'm not saying that should even happen, 219 00:10:34,933 --> 00:10:36,866 but we need to support that more. 220 00:10:36,866 --> 00:10:38,766 You just can't keep talking about 221 00:10:38,766 --> 00:10:41,233 we want women to have babies. 222 00:10:41,233 --> 00:10:46,266 So start having babie without support of the economic 223 00:10:46,266 --> 00:10:51,000 realities of what is now facing us in our country. 224 00:10:51,266 --> 00:10:54,200 Well, Jessica, let me ask you, how much sense does it make? 225 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,866 I mean, Trump is both cutting back. 226 00:10:57,866 --> 00:11:00,600 I mean, they're destroying millions of dollars 227 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,400 worth of fertility products that they have. 228 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,200 They're, literally don't know where to throw them out. 229 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,766 They have so many of them. 230 00:11:07,766 --> 00:11:09,466 And meanwhile, 231 00:11:09,466 --> 00:11:13,266 we need a larger population, not a smaller population. 232 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,166 He's also cutting way back on immigration. 233 00:11:16,166 --> 00:11:18,300 How much sense does that all make, 234 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:21,766 given that at least one goal would be to increase 235 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,166 the population in the United States? 236 00:11:24,166 --> 00:11:24,533 Yeah. 237 00:11:24,966 --> 00:11:26,333 I mean, a lot of these policies 238 00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:29,233 seem to run, as you said completely counter to that idea. 239 00:11:29,533 --> 00:11:30,266 So we know, 240 00:11:30,933 --> 00:11:34,000 and Axios reported on this, that Trump's immigration crackdown 241 00:11:34,233 --> 00:11:37,000 is actually going to lead to population decline 242 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,066 soone than we anticipated previously. 243 00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:41,766 So we know that's happening. 244 00:11:41,766 --> 00:11:45,600 Also, you point to the Bi Beautiful Bill cuts to Medicaid, 245 00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:47,766 making— increasing the administrative 246 00:11:47,766 --> 00:11:49,600 burden for families who want to earn, 247 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,900 who want to take the earned income tax credit. 248 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:54,066 So we'r talking about a list of policies 249 00:11:54,066 --> 00:11:56,700 that are going to make i much harder for working families 250 00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,666 that if you are, you know, someone who is low income in 251 00:11:59,666 --> 00:12:03,033 the United States, could mak you think twice about being able 252 00:12:03,033 --> 00:12:05,100 to take on another child in your family, 253 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,533 to have a child in the first place. 254 00:12:07,533 --> 00:12:09,566 So, as you pointed out, a lot of these policies 255 00:12:09,566 --> 00:12:12,433 just run completely counter to the stated goal. 256 00:12:12,433 --> 00:12:13,933 All right, now Whitley 257 00:12:13,933 --> 00:12:16,066 and then Sarah, please your thoughts 258 00:12:16,066 --> 00:12:18,200 and we'll go on to the next topic. 259 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,466 I think some pro livelihood policies that we should be 260 00:12:21,466 --> 00:12:24,866 seeing should center first around women's health, 261 00:12:24,866 --> 00:12:27,866 and that materna mortality rate, because it's not 262 00:12:28,166 --> 00:12:29,666 just wanting to have a child, 263 00:12:29,666 --> 00:12:31,800 but its wanting to be able to deliver that child 264 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,033 and live to be able to raise that child. 265 00:12:34,033 --> 00:12:37,500 Another pro livelihood policy that I believe we should see 266 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:40,400 is paid leave for FMLA. 267 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,133 When you have to take maternity as well as paternity leave 268 00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:48,233 for the fathers, I think having greater incentives, 269 00:12:48,233 --> 00:12:52,000 and incentivizing private corporations 270 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,733 to help with this is also going to help. 271 00:12:54,733 --> 00:12:57,866 But in all honesty, people want a strong economy. 272 00:12:57,866 --> 00:12:58,966 And when they're happy 273 00:12:58,966 --> 00:13:01,000 and when they feel like they're thriving, 274 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,500 they will get 275 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:04,433 married, have children 276 00:13:04,433 --> 00:13:07,100 and be able to feel like the can take care of their children. 277 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:09,366 But right now, people are very unsure 278 00:13:09,366 --> 00:13:11,800 and very insecure about the current economy. 279 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,900 So if you don't know whethe or not you're going to be able 280 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:15,366 to put food on your table, 281 00:13:15,366 --> 00:13:18,700 adding another mouth to feed i not something that you would do 282 00:13:18,933 --> 00:13:20,500 in this economy. 283 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,366 Sarah, your final thoughts? 284 00:13:22,366 --> 00:13:23,300 I would disagree 285 00:13:23,666 --> 00:13:26,733 that this administration's policies all run counter to 286 00:13:26,733 --> 00:13:30,300 the goal of increasing the size of the American families. 287 00:13:30,566 --> 00:13:32,933 The two biggest obstacles for women 288 00:13:32,933 --> 00:13:35,166 having more children are their paychecks 289 00:13:35,166 --> 00:13:37,166 and their ability to afford a house 290 00:13:37,166 --> 00:13:38,933 that's desirable to raise a family 291 00:13:38,933 --> 00:13:41,400 in, that's big enough to raise a family in. 292 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,066 This administration, I think unlike the previous one, is more 293 00:13:45,066 --> 00:13:47,333 relentlessly focused on getting people's wages 294 00:13:47,333 --> 00:13:50,433 up, increasing the availability of good paying jobs. 295 00:13:50,433 --> 00:13:53,100 And they're really, really focused on the price 296 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,400 of housing and building more affordable 297 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,433 single family homes 298 00:13:56,433 --> 00:13:58,566 to get the supply up to meet that demand 299 00:13:58,566 --> 00:14:00,766 so the price pressure can decrease. 300 00:14:00,766 --> 00:14:02,000 Those are the two biggest 301 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,366 obstacles, and I think solving 302 00:14:03,366 --> 00:14:06,366 those for women will help American family sizes grow. 303 00:14:06,633 --> 00:14:08,133 All right. Let us know what you think. 304 00:14:08,133 --> 00:14:12,666 Follow me @BonnieErbe. From the state of women's 305 00:14:12,666 --> 00:14:16,600 rights to views on family among Gen Z. 306 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,133 Young Americans are sharply divided 307 00:14:19,133 --> 00:14:20,833 on marriage and children, 308 00:14:20,833 --> 00:14:23,900 with gender and politics shaping their views. 309 00:14:24,133 --> 00:14:27,566 A new poll found young male Trump voters 310 00:14:28,066 --> 00:14:31,900 ranked having children as their top priority, 311 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:36,100 while young female voter and Harris supporters placed it 312 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,633 near the very bottom, at 12th out of 13 topics. 313 00:14:41,166 --> 00:14:43,133 The same split showed up, 314 00:14:43,133 --> 00:14:46,666 with marriage ranked fourth by the Trump voting men, 315 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:50,866 but just 11th by the Democratic voting young women. 316 00:14:51,133 --> 00:14:54,366 So Whitley, what is the president 317 00:14:54,366 --> 00:14:57,533 supposed to do on this policy to stimulate 318 00:14:57,533 --> 00:14:59,800 larger families in America? 319 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,466 You know, I don't necessarily think 320 00:15:01,466 --> 00:15:03,033 that this is a policy issue. 321 00:15:03,033 --> 00:15:06,533 I think that this is ver different cultural narratives. 322 00:15:06,533 --> 00:15:08,466 And for a lot of young conservative men 323 00:15:08,466 --> 00:15:11,400 having families, having wives and children 324 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:12,033 and having that 325 00:15:12,033 --> 00:15:13,700 lineage is very central 326 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:15,766 to their sense of purpose and stability. 327 00:15:15,766 --> 00:15:18,133 But I think for many progressive women, 328 00:15:18,133 --> 00:15:19,733 their success is a lot of times 329 00:15:19,733 --> 00:15:22,800 rooted and framed in thei careers and their independence. 330 00:15:23,033 --> 00:15:26,800 So marriage and children just fall at a lower priority 331 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:27,200 for them. 332 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,300 And I don't think that either side is necessarily wrong, 333 00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:32,433 but I think that they value things very differently, 334 00:15:32,433 --> 00:15:35,933 and it shows how deeply divided our cultures have become. 335 00:15:36,133 --> 00:15:39,133 And in order to bridge that divide successfully, 336 00:15:39,133 --> 00:15:42,100 specificall within the younger generations, 337 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:44,766 I think what we need to do is have a cultural shift 338 00:15:44,766 --> 00:15:45,466 and stop 339 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,966 honestly demonizing either side for what they're valuing 340 00:15:48,966 --> 00:15:50,533 in order to build that common ground. 341 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,600 Any other ideas? 342 00:15:52,933 --> 00:15:55,733 That's a—that sounds like a pretty good place to start. 343 00:15:55,733 --> 00:15:56,200 Yeah. 344 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,766 And you know, 345 00:15:57,766 --> 00:16:00,933 it's all about planned parenting. 346 00:16:01,466 --> 00:16:05,366 And to your point, Bonnie I mean, there have been policies 347 00:16:05,366 --> 00:16:10,733 and reproductive health issues, that women feel under attack. 348 00:16:11,066 --> 00:16:12,533 I mean, let's face it. 349 00:16:12,533 --> 00:16:16,033 Women take on the most of the child 350 00:16:16,033 --> 00:16:19,000 rearing, health issues, childbearing. 351 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,300 It really falls on women. 352 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,000 And therere just a lot of young 353 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,900 women out there that feel like they're not being supported. 354 00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:31,500 The uncertainty of what's going on, and all of those 355 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:35,400 play into whether or not you want to have a child. 356 00:16:35,666 --> 00:16:39,166 I can see why more men want to have children, 357 00:16:39,566 --> 00:16:42,633 because the burden doesn't normally 358 00:16:42,633 --> 00:16:45,733 fall on them as much, nor the health risks. 359 00:16:46,566 --> 00:16:48,266 Sarah, your take. 360 00:16:48,266 --> 00:16:51,533 I agree with Whitley that this is probably much 361 00:16:51,533 --> 00:16:55,700 more cultural than it is about any sort of specific 362 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:57,033 policy responses. 363 00:16:57,033 --> 00:17:00,966 The progressive generation, or progressives in general, 364 00:17:00,966 --> 00:17:04,933 they tend to be more affluent, better educated, 365 00:17:04,933 --> 00:17:06,066 and we know that 366 00:17:06,066 --> 00:17:09,266 wealthier, better educated people tend to delay 367 00:17:09,266 --> 00:17:13,533 childbearing more than peopl from lower socioeconomic rungs. 368 00:17:13,766 --> 00:17:16,600 And we also know that Democrats, especially this younger 369 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,500 Democratic generation, is much more secular 370 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:21,266 than the generations that came before them, 371 00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:23,566 and then their conservative counterparts. 372 00:17:23,566 --> 00:17:26,800 And I do think that the secularization of America 373 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,933 has led to lower births, because some of the dominant 374 00:17:30,933 --> 00:17:32,600 religions in America for so many years, 375 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,333 like Catholicism, for example, 376 00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:36,933 really encourages having lots of children 377 00:17:36,933 --> 00:17:39,133 as a central tenet of religious belief. 378 00:17:39,133 --> 00:17:40,766 If you don't have that religious belief 379 00:17:40,766 --> 00:17:43,600 guiding your choices, you're much more likely to be swayed 380 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,100 by economic factors. 381 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:46,066 I think its 382 00:17:46,533 --> 00:17:50,200 both cultural and also I thin the policy matters here as well. 383 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,633 So I think on the cultural end, 384 00:17:52,633 --> 00:17:53,500 certainly we're 385 00:17:53,833 --> 00:17:57,433 seeing young me whove witnessed their families, 386 00:17:57,433 --> 00:17:59,633 their parents and their dynamics. 387 00:17:59,633 --> 00:18:00,666 They've seen their fathers. 388 00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:02,866 And we know this from research that, 389 00:18:02,866 --> 00:18:03,600 you know, fathers 390 00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:07,466 tend to have less involvement than mothers in a whole host 391 00:18:07,466 --> 00:18:08,833 of household tasks. 392 00:18:08,833 --> 00:18:11,466 So they've seen their, you know, young women are growing up 393 00:18:11,466 --> 00:18:14,133 watching their mothers try and juggle, 394 00:18:14,133 --> 00:18:17,433 you know, work, try and juggle child care, trying to juggle 395 00:18:17,433 --> 00:18:18,733 taking care of the house. 396 00:18:18,733 --> 00:18:20,333 They're witnessing this and realizing 397 00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:22,233 that's potentially my role. 398 00:18:22,233 --> 00:18:25,200 And so to me that's quite a cultural issue. 399 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,366 And on the policy end, 400 00:18:26,366 --> 00:18:27,900 I think you can't discount 401 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,766 the amount of young women who are feeling as if, 402 00:18:30,766 --> 00:18:33,800 because of the widespread abortion bans, because of Roe 403 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,600 being overturned, a lack o ownership over their own bodies. 404 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,166 And in some way, we can really talk about this 405 00:18:41,166 --> 00:18:43,433 as a reclaiming of my body 406 00:18:43,433 --> 00:18:45,733 is not just a vessel for children, 407 00:18:45,733 --> 00:18:47,300 but it's something that I possess 408 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:48,766 and can do with what I want. 409 00:18:48,766 --> 00:18:50,033 So I think we're seeing kind of 410 00:18:50,033 --> 00:18:52,033 both things happen simultaneously. 411 00:18:52,033 --> 00:18:52,766 Gotcha. 412 00:18:52,766 --> 00:18:54,066 And, Sarah, do you think— 413 00:18:54,066 --> 00:18:57,166 do you think President Trump will be seen as a failure 414 00:18:57,166 --> 00:18:59,966 if he doesn't inspire Americans to have more children? 415 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:01,666 I actually 416 00:19:02,366 --> 00:19:06,100 see the more children agenda as being much more closely 417 00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:09,100 associated with Vice President JD Vance. 418 00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,200 His political future especially among conservatives 419 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,033 in a conservative primary, even, could be more closely 420 00:19:15,033 --> 00:19:15,800 tied to that. 421 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:19,700 Thats sort of, you know, an item thats squarely in his portfolio. 422 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,200 You don't hear Donald Trump 423 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,433 speaking about that as frequently. 424 00:19:23,433 --> 00:19:26,133 Well, and also, he doesn't really need to. I mean, he's 425 00:19:26,133 --> 00:19:29,766 well beyond the average age of becoming a father. 426 00:19:29,766 --> 00:19:30,766 And he already has 427 00:19:31,033 --> 00:19:34,433 a, you know, pretty large group of children, right? 428 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:35,266 Yeah. 429 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,700 I mean, he has three wives 430 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,400 and children from each one of his three wives. 431 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:44,933 So I agree with you. 432 00:19:44,933 --> 00:19:47,933 I don't think that's really his focus right now. 433 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,333 And as far as JD Vanc goes, he's the vice president. 434 00:19:52,533 --> 00:19:54,466 He doesn't really have a lot of power, 435 00:19:54,466 --> 00:19:55,433 as we know. 436 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:58,500 Vice presidents are there to support the president 437 00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:01,566 and be there in case something happens to the president. 438 00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:04,633 So he can espouse his views 439 00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:08,500 and he can do what he' been doing and being very vocal. 440 00:20:08,833 --> 00:20:12,400 But the policies are from the presidency. 441 00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:14,966 Okay, Whitley, last word, you have it. 442 00:20:14,966 --> 00:20:18,900 I really want to push back on on this idea that the policies 443 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:20,966 are not necessarily beneficial. 444 00:20:20,966 --> 00:20:21,566 There was a time 445 00:20:21,933 --> 00:20:23,466 when women were burning their bras 446 00:20:23,466 --> 00:20:25,866 and begging to get into the workforce, 447 00:20:25,866 --> 00:20:28,133 and now that they are in the workforce 448 00:20:28,133 --> 00:20:30,033 and the thought of being in the workforce and 449 00:20:30,033 --> 00:20:32,200 rearing children just seems like too much. 450 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,000 But that was something that a lot of women 451 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,900 fought and advocated for. 452 00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:37,333 Juxtaposition to that, 453 00:20:37,333 --> 00:20:39,300 you have the trad wife lifestyle, 454 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,233 which is basically stay at home mom or a homemaker 455 00:20:42,233 --> 00:20:45,400 that is consistently demonized by working women. 456 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,400 And so we can't say that it's really 457 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,833 the policies that are producing these types of ideologies. 458 00:20:50,833 --> 00:20:52,900 It is wholeheartedly the culture. 459 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:54,766 Well, but what about the economy? 460 00:20:54,766 --> 00:20:57,833 I mean we do seem to be in a situation 461 00:20:57,833 --> 00:20:59,200 where we're coming from 462 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,966 years of prosperity and heading towards years of no growth 463 00:21:03,966 --> 00:21:06,033 or very little prosperity. 464 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:07,066 But this is something that's 465 00:21:07,066 --> 00:21:09,233 always happened within American history. 466 00:21:09,233 --> 00:21:11,300 We've always had times of success 467 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:12,866 and abundance and wealth, 468 00:21:12,866 --> 00:21:14,733 and then we've always also had times 469 00:21:14,733 --> 00:21:16,766 of trials and tribulations within this country. 470 00:21:16,766 --> 00:21:19,766 So I don't want to pretend like what we're going through now, 471 00:21:19,766 --> 00:21:21,333 our country hasn't been through 472 00:21:21,333 --> 00:21:24,333 or been through worse and we've consistently been able 473 00:21:24,333 --> 00:21:26,033 to overcome each and every time. 474 00:21:26,033 --> 00:21:29,666 So I just think we need to start looking at the culture 475 00:21:29,666 --> 00:21:33,733 of America now and how much it is genuinely changed, 476 00:21:33,933 --> 00:21:35,300 as well as gender roles. 477 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:38,533 But let's get a little bit into what's going on currently, 478 00:21:38,533 --> 00:21:39,966 which is we have— 479 00:21:39,966 --> 00:21:41,066 we have a president 480 00:21:41,066 --> 00:21:44,466 who's getting rid of a lot of immigrants, 481 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,833 and they tend to have more children, 482 00:21:47,833 --> 00:21:48,266 if you look 483 00:21:49,133 --> 00:21:51,700 at the reproduction tables and who has more kids, it's 484 00:21:52,066 --> 00:21:55,366 it's almost always immigrants than it is people who've been 485 00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,033 in this countr for generations and generations, 486 00:21:59,033 --> 00:22:02,100 because education is the difference. 487 00:22:02,366 --> 00:22:06,633 So what would you be doing to spur Americans to have 488 00:22:06,633 --> 00:22:07,800 more kids? 489 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,833 Well, I think, also, you know, it segues right in. 490 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,066 You know, the Earth is groaning. 491 00:22:15,066 --> 00:22:19,100 We have a huge Earth population 492 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:23,833 as we have climate chang happening and water is rising. 493 00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:26,466 So there are a lot of issues, 494 00:22:26,466 --> 00:22:30,333 I think, that factor into people being uncertain 495 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:34,366 about wanting to bring children into this world. 496 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,133 And certainly governmen should not be pulling programs, 497 00:22:39,533 --> 00:22:42,800 pulling SNAP, reducing it, 498 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,700 shutting down rural hospitals that will no longer be able 499 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:51,933 to afford to stay open that service a lot of these 500 00:22:51,933 --> 00:22:57,000 women in their health care needs and having a baby. 501 00:22:57,466 --> 00:23:00,866 So you can't start pulling the rug out from 502 00:23:00,866 --> 00:23:04,533 underneath women and going, but I want you to have more kids. 503 00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,466 I mean, that is not going to work. 504 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:10,566 Not in today's society. 505 00:23:10,566 --> 00:23:11,666 No it's not. 506 00:23:11,666 --> 00:23:14,466 So, anybody else want to throw anything in 507 00:23:14,466 --> 00:23:16,233 before we close the show? 508 00:23:16,233 --> 00:23:18,933 I mean, I think we saw, what, just this week 509 00:23:18,933 --> 00:23:21,733 that there was a bill to help increase 510 00:23:21,733 --> 00:23:24,700 health, specifically in rural communities, 511 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:26,166 focused on hospitals. 512 00:23:26,166 --> 00:23:28,366 And so I do thin the administration is looking at 513 00:23:28,366 --> 00:23:32,033 what's happening in America and they are responding to it. 514 00:23:32,266 --> 00:23:33,166 At the same time, 515 00:23:33,566 --> 00:23:35,666 I think we've seen tim and time again in this country 516 00:23:35,666 --> 00:23:37,533 where we've imported groups of people 517 00:23:37,533 --> 00:23:38,766 from different cultures, 518 00:23:38,766 --> 00:23:41,866 and that has created problems, some of those problems 519 00:23:41,866 --> 00:23:44,666 that we've never been able to get over. 520 00:23:44,666 --> 00:23:48,566 And so looking at immigration as a way of population 521 00:23:48,566 --> 00:23:49,933 increase does come 522 00:23:49,933 --> 00:23:52,866 with its own sets of challenges when it comes to the culture 523 00:23:52,866 --> 00:23:53,666 of America 524 00:23:54,166 --> 00:23:56,933 and blending those cultures together in a diverse way 525 00:23:56,933 --> 00:23:57,500 that allows 526 00:23:57,733 --> 00:23:59,300 for all of them to feel included 527 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:01,400 To piggyback off of that as well, 528 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,600 if I could really quick, 529 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,033 you know, 530 00:24:03,866 --> 00:24:05,733 the American birth rate and the growth of families, 531 00:24:05,733 --> 00:24:08,233 it's more than just numbers on a spreadsheet. 532 00:24:08,233 --> 00:24:10,700 It is a real cultural— 533 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:12,366 It strikes at the heart of, 534 00:24:12,366 --> 00:24:12,933 you know, 535 00:24:12,933 --> 00:24:14,133 American families 536 00:24:14,133 --> 00:24:16,933 feeling like they can get ahead and stay ahead. 537 00:24:16,933 --> 00:24:18,500 And we sort of saw this with the way 538 00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:22,500 the Biden administration treated wage growth and job growth. 539 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,833 There were a lot of working class voters 540 00:24:24,833 --> 00:24:28,233 who rebelled against Democrat because the Biden administration 541 00:24:28,233 --> 00:24:30,300 would constantly point to numbers on a spreadsheet 542 00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:32,733 and say, see, look, there are plenty of jobs. 543 00:24:32,733 --> 00:24:33,866 Wages are going up. 544 00:24:34,066 --> 00:24:36,133 But there were a lot of working class American families 545 00:24:36,133 --> 00:24:38,533 who didn't feel like that was extending to them, 546 00:24:38,533 --> 00:24:40,300 because a lot of those economic numbers 547 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,900 were being driven by foreign born workers. 548 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:46,000 And so I do think you have t look at this more holistically 549 00:24:46,533 --> 00:24:51,066 and not as just some sort of dry economic number in a vacuum. 550 00:24:51,066 --> 00:24:53,733 Encouraging American families to have more children 551 00:24:53,733 --> 00:24:56,066 and letting everyone have the number of children 552 00:24:56,066 --> 00:24:58,000 that they want to have and not feel held 553 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,233 back, you can' replace that with immigration. 554 00:25:01,433 --> 00:25:01,766 All right. 555 00:25:02,333 --> 00:25:04,133 And I'm sure that's something 556 00:25:04,133 --> 00:25:07,666 that everybody at this momen in time is paying attention to 557 00:25:07,666 --> 00:25:11,533 because we have a large grou of young people in this country 558 00:25:11,533 --> 00:25:14,566 of childbearing age and they've been holding back, 559 00:25:14,566 --> 00:25:18,266 and maybe they need t not hold back, I don't know, but 560 00:25:18,566 --> 00:25:19,866 whatever is going on 561 00:25:19,866 --> 00:25:23,500 now is not getting us t where we want to be right now. 562 00:25:23,833 --> 00:25:26,166 That's it for this edition of To the Contrary. 563 00:25:26,166 --> 00:25:29,100 Keep the conversation going on our social media 564 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,633 platforms Instagram, Facebook, X and TikTok. 565 00:25:33,033 --> 00:25:36,033 Reach out to us @tothecontrary. 566 00:25:36,033 --> 00:25:37,300 Visit our website, 567 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,333 the address is on the screen and whether you agree 568 00:25:40,333 --> 00:25:43,500 or think to the contrary, see you next time. 569 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:19,633 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 570 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,166 You're watching PBS.