1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,466 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 2 00:00:11,733 --> 00:00:13,900 This week on To The Contrary: 3 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:17,266 First, why women live longer than men. Then 4 00:00:17,633 --> 00:00:20,833 the surprising reason travel for abortions 5 00:00:20,833 --> 00:00:21,900 is dropping. 6 00:00:41,933 --> 00:00:44,766 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé. Welcome to To The Contrary, 7 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:46,133 a discussion of news 8 00:00:46,333 --> 00:00:49,133 and social trend from a variety of perspectives. 9 00:00:49,333 --> 00:00:52,633 Up first: changing genetic lifespans. 10 00:00:53,066 --> 00:00:56,233 New studies show females live longer than men, 11 00:00:56,233 --> 00:01:00,100 not just among humans, but in most mammal species. 12 00:01:00,466 --> 00:01:04,200 Genetics play a role as females have two X 13 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,300 chromosomes that may protect against mutations. 14 00:01:07,666 --> 00:01:10,733 Mating behaviors also matter, as males 15 00:01:10,733 --> 00:01:13,733 often take more risks or use more energy 16 00:01:13,933 --> 00:01:18,266 competing for mates. In humans, lifestyle adds to the gap. 17 00:01:18,633 --> 00:01:22,100 Men smoke, drink and avoid doctors more often. 18 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,233 Scientists say men could live longer by adopting healthier 19 00:01:26,233 --> 00:01:31,200 habits, such as regular checkups and better diet and exercise. 20 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:32,300 Joining me 21 00:01:32,966 --> 00:01:36,333 this week are former Marylan Democratic Congresswoman Donna 22 00:01:36,333 --> 00:01:40,900 Edwards, Republican strategist Ann Stone, New Amsterdam 23 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:45,733 News's Sam Bennet and podcast host April Chapman. 24 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:49,333 What can men learn from women about living longer, 25 00:01:49,333 --> 00:01:50,700 Donna Edwards? 26 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:52,066 Well, how about caregiving? 27 00:01:52,066 --> 00:01:54,233 That caregiving is a major contributor 28 00:01:54,233 --> 00:01:57,500 to women living longer, and so maybe men can adopt 29 00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:58,700 some of those strategies. 30 00:01:59,866 --> 00:02:03,366 And the recent studies show that not only caregiving 31 00:02:03,366 --> 00:02:05,100 is a critical role, but social connections, 32 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:08,100 where women are much higher, of course, is instrumental. 33 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:10,433 And believe it or not, eating your breakfast 34 00:02:10,433 --> 00:02:12,866 first thing in the mornin seems to be a critical factor. 35 00:02:12,866 --> 00:02:14,766 So if men just started eating their breakfast 36 00:02:14,766 --> 00:02:17,233 first thing in the morning, that might help. 37 00:02:17,233 --> 00:02:18,100 As you know, I'm 38 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:20,500 a female chauvinist, and frankly, 39 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:22,233 there are a lot of things they can do 40 00:02:22,233 --> 00:02:25,100 to maybe live a little longer but well always outlive them. 41 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:28,100 There are many reasons we'll go into in a minute. 42 00:02:29,333 --> 00:02:31,766 I mean, I don't know if the crisis is necessarily 43 00:02:31,766 --> 00:02:33,200 biological. 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,266 I'd like to have a conversation, though, about why, 45 00:02:36,266 --> 00:02:40,233 masculinit seems to be broken these days, 46 00:02:40,233 --> 00:02:41,600 but we can talk about that later. 47 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:44,600 All right, now, let's start with, 48 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,866 why we do think that the primary reason why, 49 00:02:49,266 --> 00:02:50,766 women outlive men, 50 00:02:50,766 --> 00:02:52,066 which has been the case for a long, 51 00:02:52,066 --> 00:02:55,066 long time, although the gap does close and open. 52 00:02:56,133 --> 00:02:56,433 Right. 53 00:02:57,133 --> 00:02:57,866 Well I'd like to start by saying that 54 00:02:58,466 --> 00:03:01,466 I don't believe that the crisis is necessarily biology. 55 00:03:01,733 --> 00:03:03,700 I'm looking at what I see in modern 56 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:05,500 society as broken masculinity. 57 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:07,766 It's interesting that we're discussing 58 00:03:07,766 --> 00:03:11,533 masculinity and patriarch and how this whole conversation 59 00:03:11,533 --> 00:03:15,333 is centered around it, and often is framed as toxic. 60 00:03:15,566 --> 00:03:16,900 Ye we're sitting on the internet, 61 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:18,933 we're using computers, you have technology, 62 00:03:18,933 --> 00:03:21,166 and we're enjoying all of the modern comforts 63 00:03:21,166 --> 00:03:22,733 that men have built. 64 00:03:22,733 --> 00:03:25,666 And oftentimes we do that lacking gratitude. 65 00:03:25,666 --> 00:03:28,133 So to answer the question, men are wired 66 00:03:28,133 --> 00:03:30,433 to protect, provide, and sacrifice everything 67 00:03:30,433 --> 00:03:33,200 for the good of others in a way that's different 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:33,933 than women. 69 00:03:33,933 --> 00:03:34,966 But if you're—if you're— 70 00:03:34,966 --> 00:03:37,033 no, let me finish. 71 00:03:37,033 --> 00:03:39,066 If what you're saying is accurate, 72 00:03:39,066 --> 00:03:42,500 then men should be outliving women, because the gender 73 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:44,566 right now that is more caregiving, 74 00:03:44,566 --> 00:03:47,433 which is clearly women, is living longer. 75 00:03:47,433 --> 00:03:49,566 So why isn't that working out with men and women? 76 00:03:49,566 --> 00:03:51,400 I'm arguing that they're shouldering 77 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,300 the burdens of the world, burdens 78 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:57,133 that even our female physiology cannot imagine taking on. 79 00:03:57,366 --> 00:03:59,966 And our modern culture wants to kill that. 80 00:03:59,966 --> 00:04:03,966 We've got women destroyin the lives of men, with 80% of us 81 00:04:03,966 --> 00:04:06,400 filing for divorces, taking away 82 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,366 the very thing that give men purpose, 83 00:04:08,366 --> 00:04:11,600 which is their families their children, their position 84 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,100 in the world to prioritize what they've built. 85 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:17,933 And when you take that away, 86 00:04:17,933 --> 00:04:19,800 we're doing all kinds of things 87 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,800 that we can have conversations about, 88 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,733 are we shocke that men are not living longer? 89 00:04:24,733 --> 00:04:28,166 When our society begin to restore faith and purpose in 90 00:04:28,166 --> 00:04:32,133 just being a man, as opposed to demonizing masculinity, 91 00:04:32,133 --> 00:04:35,933 we might see more favorabl uptick in their health outcomes. 92 00:04:36,233 --> 00:04:39,333 I just don't think this ha anything to do with masculinity. 93 00:04:39,333 --> 00:04:42,600 It has to do with consuming more alcohol, eating poorly, 94 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:43,933 not going to the doctor. 95 00:04:43,933 --> 00:04:45,300 I mean, these are all like 96 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:48,666 really contributing factors to the disparity 97 00:04:48,666 --> 00:04:52,033 between men's longevity and women's longevity 98 00:04:52,266 --> 00:04:56,533 and perhaps if men focused o themselves in that kind of way, 99 00:04:56,533 --> 00:04:58,800 they could actually close that gap. 100 00:04:58,800 --> 00:04:59,533 And Donna— 101 00:04:59,833 --> 00:05:02,733 But genetically, isn't it genetically 102 00:05:03,366 --> 00:05:05,700 pumped into them, in the sense? I have a nephew 103 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:07,933 who has a crunched pelvis 104 00:05:07,933 --> 00:05:11,366 because he grew up riding motorcycles and 105 00:05:11,366 --> 00:05:15,466 about 5 or 10 years ago, he was speeding around an exit ramp, 106 00:05:15,466 --> 00:05:16,700 and he went off the ramp 107 00:05:16,700 --> 00:05:21,100 and onto the mountain that he was trying to get around. 108 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:23,533 And now he can barely move around anymore. 109 00:05:23,533 --> 00:05:24,233 But it's more based— 110 00:05:24,233 --> 00:05:25,966 Women dont normally do that 111 00:05:25,966 --> 00:05:27,966 kind of stuff But it's more basic than that. 112 00:05:27,966 --> 00:05:29,766 Donn touched on a lot of the points, 113 00:05:29,766 --> 00:05:31,800 but it goes even deeper than that. 114 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,933 Women are the stronger part of the species. 115 00:05:34,933 --> 00:05:35,900 We're built 116 00:05:36,233 --> 00:05:39,533 differently with the double X chromosome versus their XY. 117 00:05:39,533 --> 00:05:40,366 They refer to the Y 118 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:43,366 chromosome as a broken chromosome for a reason. 119 00:05:43,366 --> 00:05:47,166 Almost all inherited genetic disorders are male. 120 00:05:47,566 --> 00:05:49,966 There are very few women for example, 121 00:05:49,966 --> 00:05:53,266 that have many of the common genetic disorders. 122 00:05:53,533 --> 00:05:56,466 It comes through that XY chromosome. 123 00:05:56,466 --> 00:05:59,933 So they're destined to be weaker on many fronts. 124 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,700 Add to it the cultural things where they do 125 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:04,333 the risky behavior to impress us. 126 00:06:04,333 --> 00:06:06,433 And because that's part of who they are 127 00:06:06,433 --> 00:06:07,866 and they're destined for problems. 128 00:06:07,866 --> 00:06:10,866 But it even goes to things like tear ducts. 129 00:06:11,466 --> 00:06:13,800 The fact that women can cry is one of the reasons 130 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,133 we live longer. 131 00:06:15,133 --> 00:06:17,800 In fact, I remember givin a seminar to the men once, and 132 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,066 I said, you know what's a weakness of women? 133 00:06:20,066 --> 00:06:22,166 Oh, they cry. I said well, actually, because we can 134 00:06:22,166 --> 00:06:24,666 cry is one of the reasons you die. And this guy 135 00:06:24,666 --> 00:06:25,800 went, “What?!” 136 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,266 I said our tear ducts work better than yours. 137 00:06:28,266 --> 00:06:30,233 They can't cry as easily as we do. 138 00:06:30,233 --> 00:06:31,466 And that's part of 139 00:06:31,466 --> 00:06:33,400 one of the thing that actually extends our life. 140 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:34,366 Believe it or not. 141 00:06:34,766 --> 00:06:37,133 Well, we have several things— Are we saying men are broken? 142 00:06:37,133 --> 00:06:39,166 Men are broken because they don't cry? 143 00:06:39,166 --> 00:06:39,700 No, no, no. 144 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:40,000 Okay. 145 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,800 But one of the things this study also found is that 146 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,966 women may have better genes, quote unquote, for longevity. 147 00:06:47,966 --> 00:06:50,900 Yes. Because they have double X. Yes. 148 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:53,733 And so that's not a weakness. 149 00:06:53,733 --> 00:06:55,900 That's a strength. Absolutely. 150 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:58,200 It absolutely is, that—that's what I'm saying. 151 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,033 The XY allows inherited disorders 152 00:07:02,033 --> 00:07:03,600 to come through the male. 153 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,666 And that' why men have many more of them. 154 00:07:05,666 --> 00:07:06,733 Like hemophilia. 155 00:07:06,733 --> 00:07:09,066 There are virtually no female hemophiliacs. 156 00:07:09,066 --> 00:07:10,300 They're almost all male. 157 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:12,966 I'm telling you, it's a genetic thing. 158 00:07:12,966 --> 00:07:14,433 And I just point out the tear ducts 159 00:07:14,433 --> 00:07:16,533 as one other contributing factor. 160 00:07:16,533 --> 00:07:19,600 We can release stress more easily than men can. 161 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:20,400 Culturally, 162 00:07:20,866 --> 00:07:23,466 they've had it suppressed, but also physiologically, 163 00:07:23,466 --> 00:07:24,700 it's easier for us. 164 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:25,900 There's a whole bunch of things 165 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:28,433 that could take an entire hour to go over. 166 00:07:28,433 --> 00:07:31,266 Yeah, if we just look at thi from a straight up evolutionary 167 00:07:31,266 --> 00:07:35,166 standpoint, to have the gender that is able to 168 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,700 have offspring 169 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:39,766 to perpetuate the species, it makes sense 170 00:07:39,766 --> 00:07:41,433 it would need to be the stronger species. 171 00:07:41,433 --> 00:07:43,666 But that being said to your question, Bonnie, 172 00:07:43,666 --> 00:07:45,366 I think you've hit the nail on the head. 173 00:07:45,366 --> 00:07:46,200 There are simple— 174 00:07:46,466 --> 00:07:48,500 We have so many studies now about longevity, 175 00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:51,333 and the recent ones are really stressing social 176 00:07:51,333 --> 00:07:54,733 connectivity and simple life habits, right? 177 00:07:54,733 --> 00:07:55,933 When do you eat your breakfast, 178 00:07:55,933 --> 00:07:56,866 believe it or not, 179 00:07:57,066 --> 00:07:59,300 is one of the leading ones they've discovered 180 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:01,733 in some of these long term studies they've done. 181 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:05,833 So I think that our belove husbands and nephews and sons, 182 00:08:06,033 --> 00:08:06,900 just adopting 183 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:09,400 some different practices could make a big difference 184 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,333 in their lives and their longevity. 185 00:08:11,333 --> 00:08:13,066 The government would actually bring me in after 186 00:08:13,066 --> 00:08:16,866 they'd have sexual harassment training to get me in there, 187 00:08:16,866 --> 00:08:19,300 to get men and women talking to each other again. 188 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:21,800 And by the time I would g through a whole host of things 189 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,833 that—differences between men and women 190 00:08:23,833 --> 00:08:25,066 and point out to the women 191 00:08:25,066 --> 00:08:26,366 that we're always going to outlive them. 192 00:08:26,366 --> 00:08:28,466 By the end of it, everybody was laughing, 193 00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:30,533 joking, and the women are going, oh, you poor guys. 194 00:08:30,533 --> 00:08:32,666 We didn't realize, it's so sad. 195 00:08:32,666 --> 00:08:35,333 I'd just like to say that men are outworking 196 00:08:35,333 --> 00:08:37,666 and outperforming women hand over fist, 197 00:08:37,666 --> 00:08:40,600 and they are doing things that we don't want to do. 198 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,100 They are fighting wars, digging ditches— Right. 199 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:46,300 —creating the creature comforts that we get to enjoy. 200 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:48,066 And it concerns me that 201 00:08:48,066 --> 00:08:52,233 the framing of this discussion is if we are somehow better 202 00:08:52,233 --> 00:08:53,733 than them, as opposed to 203 00:08:53,733 --> 00:08:56,366 perhaps our creator created us different 204 00:08:56,366 --> 00:08:57,700 so that we would all have 205 00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:01,833 our own unique reasons of inherent value, 206 00:09:01,833 --> 00:09:03,466 that one's not better than the other, 207 00:09:03,466 --> 00:09:04,833 but it is fundamentally 208 00:09:04,833 --> 00:09:07,933 different to accomplish the task that we were designed 209 00:09:07,933 --> 00:09:09,433 to complete. 210 00:09:10,733 --> 00:09:13,400 Let me step back from this for a moment and just say, 211 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,433 I don't think we're talking about who's better. 212 00:09:15,433 --> 00:09:17,300 It's not a competition here. 213 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:21,533 There just—there's a ne medically back study that shows 214 00:09:21,766 --> 00:09:24,633 why women live longer than men. 215 00:09:24,633 --> 00:09:26,766 That may be a curse in disguise. 216 00:09:26,766 --> 00:09:28,233 Who knows? I'm just saying. 217 00:09:28,233 --> 00:09:29,733 We're not saying anyone's better. 218 00:09:29,733 --> 00:09:32,300 We're just saying there's this difference. 219 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:33,900 Yeah, and it does give us— 220 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:36,933 It does give us a reason to think about policies 221 00:09:36,933 --> 00:09:37,633 differently. 222 00:09:37,633 --> 00:09:38,900 If you have women who are 223 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:41,733 living to age 81, we need to think about 224 00:09:41,733 --> 00:09:44,733 what that means, is we have women who are caregivers, 225 00:09:44,733 --> 00:09:48,433 you know, up through, you know, their retirement years. 226 00:09:48,433 --> 00:09:49,400 We need to think about 227 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:52,800 the policies that we need, that contribute to that. 228 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,966 And then looking at the combination 229 00:09:54,966 --> 00:09:57,033 of biology and genetics. 230 00:09:57,033 --> 00:10:00,233 And I would not argue that women don't work hard. 231 00:10:00,233 --> 00:10:03,933 Women, you know, bear children, 232 00:10:03,933 --> 00:10:06,800 they work in and outside the home, 233 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,833 they do lots of things that actually contribute 234 00:10:09,833 --> 00:10:11,466 to the broader community. 235 00:10:11,466 --> 00:10:14,366 And so, as Bonnie said this is not about a competition. 236 00:10:14,366 --> 00:10:18,433 It's about identifyin empirical facts about why it is 237 00:10:18,433 --> 00:10:21,466 that wome have greater longevity than men, 238 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:24,600 and then creating the kind of policies that really help 239 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,066 to support either men's increased longevity, 240 00:10:28,533 --> 00:10:31,666 or what happens with wome toward the end of their lives. 241 00:10:31,666 --> 00:10:33,166 Yeah, the point I hope we're making, 242 00:10:33,166 --> 00:10:35,600 and I think we do agree— we're different; 243 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:36,966 doesn't make one better than the other. 244 00:10:36,966 --> 00:10:38,200 But actually, 245 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,966 the more you stud all this, you're going to find, 246 00:10:39,966 --> 00:10:42,233 the more men and women work together in partnership. 247 00:10:42,233 --> 00:10:44,566 We actually were made to work together 248 00:10:44,566 --> 00:10:47,433 in partnership and that makes us both stronger. 249 00:10:47,433 --> 00:10:50,533 But men could adapt a lot of our cultural habits 250 00:10:50,533 --> 00:10:52,966 that probably would make them live a little bit longer. 251 00:10:52,966 --> 00:10:54,700 Wed still outlive them, though. 252 00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:56,466 And simple thing like just going to the doctor. 253 00:10:56,466 --> 00:10:59,000 There's a lot of research that shows that men are long 254 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,833 delayed compared to women in going to doctors. 255 00:11:00,833 --> 00:11:04,066 So, you know, PSA campaigns about get to your doctor, 256 00:11:04,066 --> 00:11:05,400 eat your breakfast 257 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,600 and make friends you know, connect with people. 258 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,966 Those simple, basic things could have, to Donna's point, 259 00:11:10,966 --> 00:11:14,033 a discernible empirical impact in the longevity of men. 260 00:11:14,033 --> 00:11:14,633 So true. 261 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,733 And I do remember, I do remember doing 262 00:11:17,733 --> 00:11:21,166 a story years ago about the fact that women were responsible— 263 00:11:21,166 --> 00:11:23,666 I don't know that these data are current, 264 00:11:23,666 --> 00:11:26,233 but I'm just saying years ago, it was certainly true. 265 00:11:26,233 --> 00:11:29,500 Wome made 80% of medical appointments 266 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:31,533 for the whole family, 80%. 267 00:11:31,533 --> 00:11:33,166 I was just about to say that. 268 00:11:33,166 --> 00:11:34,033 In yesteryear, 269 00:11:34,433 --> 00:11:37,766 the wife was responsible for the health, the least— 270 00:11:37,766 --> 00:11:39,133 the main responsibility 271 00:11:39,133 --> 00:11:41,566 of setting all o the appointments for the family, 272 00:11:41,566 --> 00:11:42,733 reminding everyone 273 00:11:42,733 --> 00:11:44,566 to take their supplements and their vitamins. 274 00:11:44,566 --> 00:11:46,033 And they were doing that. 275 00:11:46,033 --> 00:11:49,800 But now when you have 80% of of divorces being filed 276 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,633 by women, and men no longer have their one flesh partners 277 00:11:53,633 --> 00:11:56,833 well into their older age, the dynamics of what that's 278 00:11:56,833 --> 00:12:00,066 going to look like culturally is going to be different. 279 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,966 And that's a discussion, by the way, 280 00:12:02,966 --> 00:12:05,433 we need to have on this show, moving out. 281 00:12:05,433 --> 00:12:07,366 Why does everybody think it's 282 00:12:07,366 --> 00:12:10,200 such a great advantage to outlive 283 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,533 your gender or outlive the other gender, or outlive, 284 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,966 you know, some races live longer than others. 285 00:12:16,966 --> 00:12:21,833 In some ways, it's really hard being 90 without a mate and 286 00:12:22,233 --> 00:12:24,800 not in such great physical shape. 287 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,400 So I think there are benefits and detriments 288 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:29,500 to both sides. 289 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:30,833 Let us know what you think. 290 00:12:30,833 --> 00:12:34,333 Please follow me on X @BonnieErbe. 291 00:12:34,333 --> 00:12:35,800 From longevity 292 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,700 to reproductive health trends. New data 293 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:42,533 from the Guttmacher Institute show that for the first time 294 00:12:42,533 --> 00:12:45,600 since Roe v Wade was overturned, fewer 295 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,600 women are traveling out of state for abortions. 296 00:12:48,933 --> 00:12:52,433 This is largely du to the rising use of telehealth 297 00:12:52,433 --> 00:12:56,566 appointments and abortion pills under so-called shield laws 298 00:12:56,866 --> 00:13:00,366 that protect providers in restrictive states. 299 00:13:00,733 --> 00:13:03,500 But even those resources could be restricted 300 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,566 in the future, as ongoing legal challenges 301 00:13:06,766 --> 00:13:10,500 and funding shortfalls continue to threaten access. 302 00:13:10,733 --> 00:13:13,866 So Ann Stone, my first question on this to you. 303 00:13:14,266 --> 00:13:18,600 I suppose with the the Trump administration 304 00:13:19,033 --> 00:13:20,333 running the country, 305 00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:23,700 we can expect to see more cut offs of access to, 306 00:13:24,166 --> 00:13:27,733 you know, next is, is, you know, 307 00:13:28,633 --> 00:13:31,633 medication abortions that you can get by taking a pill. 308 00:13:31,866 --> 00:13:34,533 Well, the good news i they did drop all the lawsuits 309 00:13:34,533 --> 00:13:37,800 that DOJ had against abortion providers and on abortion 310 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:38,633 pill and all that. 311 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,233 So that's being left alone pretty much right now. 312 00:13:42,566 --> 00:13:45,400 However, there is a review. 313 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,900 They forced HHS to do a review of the current abortion pill. 314 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:50,800 I don't think anything is going to come of it. 315 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,366 Plus, we had a new abortion pill just approved, which the 316 00:13:54,366 --> 00:13:55,333 right to life folks 317 00:13:55,533 --> 00:13:58,433 in, in, the GOP are absolutely going nuts over. 318 00:13:58,433 --> 00:14:00,700 Theyre very angry that it got approved. 319 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:04,433 But since upwards of two thirds of abortions 320 00:14:04,433 --> 00:14:05,533 now are through— 321 00:14:05,533 --> 00:14:07,200 are medication abortions, 322 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,466 they don't have to go to clinics anymore. 323 00:14:09,466 --> 00:14:11,100 So it's really made it 324 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:14,266 impossible for the right to life folks to stop abortion. 325 00:14:14,466 --> 00:14:16,700 And this is something I've tol them for a long time. You know, 326 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,366 find other ways to reach peopl if you want to change their mind 327 00:14:20,366 --> 00:14:21,333 on abortion. 328 00:14:21,333 --> 00:14:22,466 Find other ways to reach 329 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,466 than the way you've been going because it's not going to work. 330 00:14:26,433 --> 00:14:28,733 What about these new laws that are coming along? 331 00:14:28,733 --> 00:14:32,566 You mentioned one of them, the so-called shield laws 332 00:14:32,566 --> 00:14:36,266 that are supposed to protect access to 333 00:14:36,833 --> 00:14:41,266 onlin chemicals, chemical abortions, 334 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,066 but that the smaller and smaller states are now 335 00:14:45,433 --> 00:14:46,366 overturning that 336 00:14:46,733 --> 00:14:49,700 making it not possibl in the more conservative states. 337 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:52,500 Well, there's 18 states where it's secure, 338 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:56,200 plus the District of Columbia. In the other states, like for example Texas 339 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,933 sued a doctor in New York for sending pills into Texas. 340 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,466 And that case blew up in their— 341 00:15:02,466 --> 00:15:04,500 blew up in their face. Its not going to happen. 342 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:07,200 New York's not going to allow it to be enforced. 343 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,100 And I think you're going to find case law on 344 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,633 this is going to be built where they can't stop it. 345 00:15:11,633 --> 00:15:12,300 They cannot— 346 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:13,766 If the pill is legitimate, 347 00:15:13,766 --> 00:15:15,066 they're not gonna be able to stop it. 348 00:15:15,066 --> 00:15:17,133 They even tried to revive some of the old laws 349 00:15:17,133 --> 00:15:19,266 making it, you know if it's going through the mail 350 00:15:19,266 --> 00:15:21,700 like they had back in the turn of the century, 351 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:23,966 we'll try to stop it. It's not going to work. 352 00:15:26,233 --> 00:15:30,166 There is a very huge safety concern with providing women, 353 00:15:30,166 --> 00:15:32,133 that we claim that we care about, 354 00:15:32,133 --> 00:15:34,666 access to this form of health care. 355 00:15:34,666 --> 00:15:37,833 The problem is there' a huge void of accountability. 356 00:15:37,833 --> 00:15:40,466 We've got this technology and I understand it. 357 00:15:40,466 --> 00:15:44,066 But the mail order abortions to me is not women's health 358 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:47,766 when you have women that oftentimes are passing 359 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,966 the remains of their babies alone, they are hemorrhaging. 360 00:15:51,966 --> 00:15:55,300 There are some serious dangers associated with this pill 361 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:58,733 because it's not done under doctor's care or supervision. 362 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,866 Now, the shield laws, they are protecting doctors, 363 00:16:01,866 --> 00:16:03,566 but they're not protecting women. 364 00:16:03,566 --> 00:16:06,000 Real care requires oversight. 365 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,866 If women are being harmed by the abortion pill passing, 366 00:16:09,866 --> 00:16:13,100 like I said, the remains of their own offspring alone. 367 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:16,066 That is not a very pleasant experience. 368 00:16:16,066 --> 00:16:18,800 We can't say that we want to protect women 369 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,633 and save women, yet we're giving them access 370 00:16:21,633 --> 00:16:24,133 to a form of health care void of accountability. 371 00:16:24,133 --> 00:16:27,400 That is a level of danger 372 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,100 that I don't think any of us are prepared 373 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,033 to have a conversation about, 374 00:16:31,033 --> 00:16:34,033 because we simply just want to give them access to— 375 00:16:36,633 --> 00:16:38,366 Donna, Donna, I want to go to you, 376 00:16:38,366 --> 00:16:39,800 but let me just start out by saying 377 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,066 I'm pretty sure I'm right on this, 378 00:16:42,066 --> 00:16:43,800 that the medical community has said 379 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,833 that abortion, having an abortion, 380 00:16:45,833 --> 00:16:48,833 especially an early term abortion, is safer 381 00:16:48,833 --> 00:16:51,233 than having a baby for women. 382 00:16:51,233 --> 00:16:52,500 Yes. Yeah. 383 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:55,300 I mean, what I was going to say, Bonnie, is just this: 384 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:59,966 that merely saying that access to medication abortion 385 00:17:00,233 --> 00:17:03,933 is endangering women and harming their lives does not bear 386 00:17:04,266 --> 00:17:07,866 truth to the reality of the safety 387 00:17:08,066 --> 00:17:11,800 and efficacy that's been found over and over again 388 00:17:12,433 --> 00:17:17,000 with these medication abortions. 389 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,433 And so, merely saying it is true is not the reality. 390 00:17:21,633 --> 00:17:25,866 These are incredibly safe. Women having access to telemedicine 391 00:17:25,866 --> 00:17:30,000 with a health care provider we provide lots of other kinds 392 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,766 of services via telemedicine 393 00:17:33,766 --> 00:17:35,633 that are safe as well. 394 00:17:35,633 --> 00:17:38,733 And so I agree with Ann, that states 395 00:17:38,733 --> 00:17:40,333 are going to try to stop this. 396 00:17:40,333 --> 00:17:42,666 I just don't think it's really possible. 397 00:17:42,666 --> 00:17:45,300 And I guess that's why the one avenue 398 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,233 that's being pursued by this administration 399 00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:51,300 is to try to go the regulatory avenue. 400 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:55,266 But no panel of physicians is going to undercut 401 00:17:55,466 --> 00:17:59,500 what has been years of research into the 402 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:01,900 safety of these medications. 403 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:03,566 And that's why they're having a— 404 00:18:03,566 --> 00:18:06,533 thats why theyre having a review, that is why they're having a review. 405 00:18:06,533 --> 00:18:07,933 But, again, 406 00:18:07,933 --> 00:18:11,000 the cases are very, very scarce where there's been a problem. 407 00:18:11,733 --> 00:18:11,966 Right. 408 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,700 But even you said earlier Ann, and I was surprised by that. 409 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:16,533 And I know that you're 410 00:18:16,866 --> 00:18:20,966 pro-choice, bu only 20 states, I guess it is, 411 00:18:20,966 --> 00:18:24,300 have these shield laws, meaning 30— 412 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:25,200 Yeah. 413 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,300 30 don't. 414 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,133 So— We're working on it. 415 00:18:29,966 --> 00:18:30,833 It's—it's— 416 00:18:31,166 --> 00:18:33,800 it's still, I think— it's disappointing, though, 417 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,833 to sit—like we're all women here, right? 418 00:18:36,833 --> 00:18:40,166 We were all once a baby. To hear our— 419 00:18:40,433 --> 00:18:42,600 It sounds like there's just such a bloodthirst 420 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,500 for the rebellio to promote a culture of death. 421 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:46,566 Oh my goodness. 422 00:18:46,566 --> 00:18:49,766 Where we are killing, it is, is it— 423 00:18:49,766 --> 00:18:52,366 It's a baby. It's alive. They are. 424 00:18:53,833 --> 00:18:55,300 April, you speak things 425 00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:56,466 as though theyre true. 426 00:18:56,466 --> 00:19:00,766 And I think there's, you know, a wide opinion— 427 00:19:00,766 --> 00:19:04,266 My, my, my world view affirms 428 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:07,266 the life, the sanctity of life in the womb, a life 429 00:19:07,266 --> 00:19:10,400 that you were at one point, at one point of gestation. 430 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,066 You were a small, tiny life but you were still significant. 431 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:15,033 That world 432 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,300 view is a very narrow view that's not held by the vast 433 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,433 majority of the American people. This is personal for me, 434 00:19:20,433 --> 00:19:23,866 because abortion devastates black communities. 435 00:19:23,866 --> 00:19:26,900 Now, I know black communities need to take responsibility 436 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:28,200 for our own demise. 437 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:28,933 But does that mean 438 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,633 that you need to be an ally to help us finish the job? 439 00:19:32,866 --> 00:19:34,233 I mean, are we at least willing to admit— 440 00:19:34,233 --> 00:19:37,000 unless you're willing to admit that you're okay 441 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,833 with racially targeting black women 442 00:19:40,833 --> 00:19:44,866 with these pills to allow us to— 443 00:19:44,866 --> 00:19:46,266 I'm so sorry, April. 444 00:19:46,266 --> 00:19:47,600 I'm the president of the nation's 445 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,766 most influential, oldest continuously published 446 00:19:49,766 --> 00:19:52,633 Black newspaper, Amsterdam News, in New York City. 447 00:19:52,633 --> 00:19:55,800 If you promote—if you are acively promoting 448 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,433 and targeting black women— Let me finish— One at a time, please. 449 00:19:59,433 --> 00:20:02,200 —progeny in the womb, you're part of the problem. 450 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,133 Respectfully, let me finish. 451 00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:05,933 I will. To Donna's point, 452 00:20:05,933 --> 00:20:07,500 nothing you're saying is true. 453 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,533 That is not true. The Amsterdam News stands firmly, stands firmly 454 00:20:11,166 --> 00:20:12,933 behind black women's rights. 455 00:20:12,933 --> 00:20:16,300 April, you have to let other people finish their comments. 456 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:17,766 You're the science people. 457 00:20:17,766 --> 00:20:19,900 Science disagrees. I'm sorry, 458 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,133 Im not disagreeing with you, Im pointing out that 459 00:20:22,133 --> 00:20:24,666 what you're saying is misinformation. 460 00:20:24,666 --> 00:20:27,500 I work for one of the highest reputation black country— 461 00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:29,133 black newspapers in the country. 462 00:20:29,133 --> 00:20:32,200 We hold our reputation very high on fact 463 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,266 checking and actual news instead of misinformation. 464 00:20:35,266 --> 00:20:36,666 With all due respect, April, 465 00:20:36,666 --> 00:20:39,266 what you're saying is misinformation and it is not true. 466 00:20:39,266 --> 00:20:40,300 It is not. 467 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:41,600 It's propaganda 468 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,700 to tell black women that it's okay 469 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,000 for them to kill their babies because it's health care. 470 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,100 Youre actually saying that black women, as black women, 471 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,100 that we don't have agency to control our own bodies. 472 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,733 And that is really that's actually more disturbing— 473 00:20:54,733 --> 00:20:57,333 —not your body. Thats a different body. That's more disturbing— 474 00:20:57,333 --> 00:20:57,866 Wait, wait. 475 00:20:57,866 --> 00:20:59,033 Hold on a second. 476 00:20:59,033 --> 00:21:02,233 No. If you're all talking at the same time, 477 00:21:02,533 --> 00:21:05,466 nobody can hear any of you— And I understand that. 478 00:21:05,466 --> 00:21:08,466 So, respectfully, I will concede the point 479 00:21:08,466 --> 00:21:11,633 and move the conversation over. 480 00:21:11,633 --> 00:21:13,866 But I am not pushing propaganda. 481 00:21:13,866 --> 00:21:16,933 Science disagrees with your position. 482 00:21:16,933 --> 00:21:18,766 April, actually, science is not as cut 483 00:21:18,766 --> 00:21:21,766 and dry as you're saying. Oh, it is. But we don't have— Wait. 484 00:21:22,233 --> 00:21:23,200 As she just asked, 485 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,766 don't speak over. 486 00:21:24,766 --> 00:21:27,533 The point is, we'd spend hours. 487 00:21:27,533 --> 00:21:29,733 I've been working on this issue for over 40 years. 488 00:21:29,733 --> 00:21:31,666 Wed spend hours discussing this. 489 00:21:31,666 --> 00:21:34,300 There's a lot more to it than we're even getting into here. 490 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:35,866 But that's why I said earlier. 491 00:21:35,866 --> 00:21:39,000 Better to try new ways to get people 492 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,633 to not get pregnant in the first place. 493 00:21:40,633 --> 00:21:43,533 Unintended pregnancy is the reason for abortion, 494 00:21:43,533 --> 00:21:45,233 and to find ways to support them 495 00:21:45,233 --> 00:21:47,033 if they want to carry the child. 496 00:21:47,033 --> 00:21:50,633 So the point is, the discussion that we're having here, 497 00:21:50,633 --> 00:21:54,466 though, is on the efficacy of abortion pills and why 498 00:21:54,466 --> 00:21:56,233 now people aren't traveling out of state 499 00:21:56,233 --> 00:21:57,400 and they aren't, because 500 00:21:57,633 --> 00:22:00,400 we've progressed to where it is, mainly medication abortion. 501 00:22:00,633 --> 00:22:03,500 That's why, again, April, if you want to stop abortion 502 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:05,433 in the Black community or elsewhere, 503 00:22:05,433 --> 00:22:07,600 your tactics have to change. 504 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,933 That's all. 505 00:22:08,933 --> 00:22:11,333 And I just wanted to point out from my standpoint again, 506 00:22:11,333 --> 00:22:14,233 as president of Amsterdam News the nation's most influential, 507 00:22:14,233 --> 00:22:17,566 oldest continuously publishe black newspaper has always stood 508 00:22:17,566 --> 00:22:19,166 with a black woman publisher who's owned 509 00:22:19,166 --> 00:22:22,233 the newspaper with her family for over 75 years. 510 00:22:22,233 --> 00:22:25,400 We stand with a woman's righ to choose, Black or otherwise, 511 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,866 because it is the best— 512 00:22:26,866 --> 00:22:28,033 putting 513 00:22:28,033 --> 00:22:30,000 the health of the mother first is always 514 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,133 what is the most important thing. 515 00:22:32,133 --> 00:22:35,566 Is there anybody who thinks that somebody 516 00:22:35,566 --> 00:22:37,066 other than the woman, 517 00:22:37,066 --> 00:22:39,833 or if you want to add her doctor, 518 00:22:39,833 --> 00:22:42,333 should be a part of this decision? 519 00:22:42,333 --> 00:22:43,933 I'm just curious. 520 00:22:43,933 --> 00:22:46,333 I'm just about protecting all lives 521 00:22:46,333 --> 00:22:49,333 from age of gestation all the way to end of life. 522 00:22:49,333 --> 00:22:52,733 And I just don't agree wit turning telehealth into teledeat 523 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,833 We can't claim to champio women's rights and then promote 524 00:22:55,833 --> 00:22:59,633 mail order abortions that harm both the body and the soul. 525 00:22:59,633 --> 00:23:02,533 No one talks about the lack of aftercare 526 00:23:02,533 --> 00:23:05,566 and physician attention that's given to these women 527 00:23:05,566 --> 00:23:07,866 who have heard their testimonies and stories, 528 00:23:07,866 --> 00:23:09,633 where they've been misrepresented 529 00:23:09,633 --> 00:23:11,500 and told that, oh, it's going to be simple. 530 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:12,933 It's just a little cramping. 531 00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:14,800 And this is a traumatic 532 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,500 medical event that these women are experiencing alone. 533 00:23:18,866 --> 00:23:19,400 Well, I 534 00:23:20,233 --> 00:23:23,366 guess I would like to se that borne out by the evidence. 535 00:23:23,366 --> 00:23:27,400 And I haven't see any evidentiary base other than 536 00:23:27,733 --> 00:23:31,833 anecdotal examples. 537 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,133 And so what we do know is that these 538 00:23:36,133 --> 00:23:40,133 medically provided abortions are safe, 539 00:23:40,133 --> 00:23:43,133 that the drugs that are used are safe. 540 00:23:43,366 --> 00:23:48,300 And that women's experience with them is safe as well. 541 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:49,666 And so I can only go 542 00:23:49,666 --> 00:23:53,833 by the evidence, and I believe in the ability of women 543 00:23:54,066 --> 00:23:56,366 to make that decision for themselves. 544 00:23:56,366 --> 00:23:59,266 It's not my decision for some other woman. 545 00:23:59,266 --> 00:24:02,266 It's not somebody other than a doctor 546 00:24:02,266 --> 00:24:05,366 in consultation with a woman's decision. 547 00:24:05,633 --> 00:24:08,600 And so I respect the agency of women 548 00:24:08,833 --> 00:24:11,533 to make those decisions for themselves 549 00:24:11,533 --> 00:24:13,366 with the safety of the drugs 550 00:24:13,366 --> 00:24:15,533 that are available on the market now. 551 00:24:15,533 --> 00:24:18,866 And the sad truth is that we'd make much more progress 552 00:24:18,866 --> 00:24:22,233 if the two sides would sit down and find common ground 553 00:24:22,233 --> 00:24:25,233 solution that make abortion unnecessary 554 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,833 and/or that support women both before pregnancy 555 00:24:28,833 --> 00:24:30,000 and after pregnancy, 556 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,000 even if it's after terminating a pregnancy. 557 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,866 So much is spent going at each other 558 00:24:35,866 --> 00:24:38,233 and not enough time talking to each other 559 00:24:38,233 --> 00:24:40,100 and really trying to find— because there's a lot 560 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:42,100 of common ground solution that are available out there if 561 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,000 people will talk to each other. 562 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:44,933 Agreed. 563 00:24:45,133 --> 00:24:47,366 Can I tell you what George Harrison told me? 564 00:24:47,366 --> 00:24:49,700 Believe it or not, George Harrison reached out— 565 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:53,566 The Beatle reached out to me, after one of my speeches 566 00:24:53,566 --> 00:24:54,766 in Florida, 567 00:24:54,766 --> 00:24:57,333 and he said, what you have to do is tell people 568 00:24:57,333 --> 00:25:00,100 that the body is the temple for the soul, 569 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,633 and therefore the human can't be complete until the soul, 570 00:25:03,633 --> 00:25:06,400 until the temple is complete for the soul to come in. 571 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,233 And I appreciate—I told hi I appreciated his observation, 572 00:25:09,233 --> 00:25:12,066 but that was a little esoteric to get into on TV. 573 00:25:12,066 --> 00:25:13,966 But so that's why I've always been 574 00:25:13,966 --> 00:25:15,233 very comfortable, I told him. I said 575 00:25:15,233 --> 00:25:17,000 I actually believed exactly as he did. 576 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,466 Yeah, we just disagree. 577 00:25:18,466 --> 00:25:21,933 We just want—we want abortion to be safe and rare. 578 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,066 It's what we all want. 579 00:25:24,066 --> 00:25:24,666 All right. 580 00:25:25,233 --> 00:25:27,533 That's it for this edition of To The Contrary. 581 00:25:27,533 --> 00:25:30,500 Please keep the conversation going on our social media 582 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:34,466 platforms: Instagram, Facebook, X and TikTok. 583 00:25:34,766 --> 00:25:38,733 Reach out to us @tothecontrary, visit our website. 584 00:25:38,733 --> 00:25:40,900 The address is on the screen 585 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,133 and whether you agree or think to the contrary, 586 00:25:44,133 --> 00:25:45,100 see you next time. 587 00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:19,733 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 588 00:26:42,433 --> 00:26:44,000 You're watching PBS.