1 00:00:00,933 --> 00:00:03,366 Funding for To The Contrary provided by the E. 2 00:00:03,366 --> 00:00:04,600 Rhodes and Leona B. 3 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:09,233 Carpenter Foundation, The Park Foundation, and the Charles A. 4 00:00:09,233 --> 00:00:11,666 Frueauff Foundation. 5 00:00:11,666 --> 00:00:12,300 coming up. 6 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:13,933 On to the contrary, 7 00:00:13,933 --> 00:00:17,033 abortion rights heat up in the presidential race 8 00:00:17,033 --> 00:00:21,366 as court challenges proliferate and President Biden and VP 9 00:00:21,366 --> 00:00:26,066 Kamala Harris focus in to score points against Republicans, 10 00:00:26,066 --> 00:00:29,633 then church, state and your tax dollars. 11 00:00:29,966 --> 00:00:30,333 You may 12 00:00:31,166 --> 00:00:33,733 or may not want your money going to fund Christian schools. 13 00:00:34,066 --> 00:00:36,600 But what about Wiccan schools? 14 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:53,833 Intro Music 15 00:00:56,133 --> 00:00:57,366 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. 16 00:00:57,633 --> 00:01:00,500 Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news 17 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:03,733 and social trends from diverse perspectives. 18 00:01:03,733 --> 00:01:07,566 Up first are abortion decisions a matter of health 19 00:01:07,933 --> 00:01:10,266 or a matter of religious wars? 20 00:01:10,266 --> 00:01:13,366 The Supreme Court sides with the Biden administration 21 00:01:13,366 --> 00:01:16,800 dismissing the dispute over Idahos abortion law. 22 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:20,000 This will allow doctors temporary access 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,966 to perform emergency abortions, at least until lower courts 24 00:01:23,966 --> 00:01:27,733 rule, and look for Trump's Supreme Court appointees 25 00:01:27,966 --> 00:01:30,800 to be a major talking point for Democrats 26 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,600 up and down the ballot in November. 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,700 They will bring attention to the fact that Trump appointed 28 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:41,233 justices were the key to overturning Roe versus Wade. 29 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,733 Joining us today, Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton, Democrat 30 00:01:45,733 --> 00:01:49,866 from Washington, DC, Republican strategist and Stone, 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,533 author and political scientist Laura Brown and Jenny Gentles 32 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:56,733 of the Independent Women's Forum. 33 00:01:56,733 --> 00:01:57,866 Welcome, everybody. 34 00:01:58,833 --> 00:01:59,966 So, Eleanor, 35 00:01:59,966 --> 00:02:03,800 the Supreme Court is now close to wrapping up its term. 36 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:06,800 How would you, summarize 37 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,133 what it's done for or against abortion rights? 38 00:02:10,133 --> 00:02:14,500 And how will that play in, in terms of the elections? 39 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:15,800 Well, the Supreme 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,000 Court has not been very cordial to abortion rights, 41 00:02:19,766 --> 00:02:23,300 and it has made abortion rights 42 00:02:23,300 --> 00:02:27,400 a major issue in this coming election. 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:33,000 So you would say it's the it's the Trump appointees and the, 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,200 and, Justices Clarence Thomas, who was a 45 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:43,133 was a Bush appointee and, Alito, who are responsible 46 00:02:43,133 --> 00:02:45,033 for abortion being a 47 00:02:45,033 --> 00:02:48,466 if not the major issue for Democrats this this year. 48 00:02:48,766 --> 00:02:50,733 Yeah, it's always elevated the issue. 49 00:02:50,733 --> 00:02:53,233 It's it's propelled the issue. 50 00:02:53,233 --> 00:02:56,366 The Supreme Court has done that, and it's made it 51 00:02:56,366 --> 00:02:59,633 a major issue in this upcoming election in November. 52 00:02:59,633 --> 00:03:03,466 Your point is, a long time court watcher and Yale educated 53 00:03:03,466 --> 00:03:07,166 lawyer, as I love to point out and bother you about it. 54 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:11,166 but anyway, or are these 55 00:03:11,733 --> 00:03:15,066 are these votes on the court, do you think, responsible 56 00:03:15,066 --> 00:03:15,900 in large part? 57 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,200 In no part at all for public approval rating of 37%? 58 00:03:20,766 --> 00:03:22,700 Oh, I certainly think so. These, 59 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:27,933 these, decisions, have, 60 00:03:29,033 --> 00:03:31,766 had a terrible effect on the Supreme Court 61 00:03:31,766 --> 00:03:34,666 and I think, partly 62 00:03:34,666 --> 00:03:37,766 if not entirely responsible for its low, low ratings 63 00:03:37,766 --> 00:03:38,266 with the public. 64 00:03:38,266 --> 00:03:39,700 Let me go to you. 65 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:44,833 And as a long time pro-choice Republican, 66 00:03:44,833 --> 00:03:49,066 when there were such people in large numbers in your party, 67 00:03:49,333 --> 00:03:52,966 your thoughts on the Supreme Court's term thus far 68 00:03:52,966 --> 00:03:56,733 and what it will do to President Trump's, 69 00:03:56,733 --> 00:03:58,733 chances for reelection in November? 70 00:03:58,733 --> 00:04:02,433 It's like the old adage, of the dog that chases the bus 71 00:04:02,433 --> 00:04:05,433 and catches it by the tailpipe, then what does it do? 72 00:04:05,733 --> 00:04:09,866 truly, they're in a position now of getting what they thought 73 00:04:09,866 --> 00:04:12,866 they wanted and finding out it was not everything, 74 00:04:13,133 --> 00:04:14,366 that they thought it would be. 75 00:04:14,366 --> 00:04:16,600 And a big part of it is, as I've said to people 76 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,766 getting again, 77 00:04:17,766 --> 00:04:21,166 the Republican side failed to realize that every state 78 00:04:21,166 --> 00:04:25,833 initiative since ro in 1973, every single state initiative, 79 00:04:26,133 --> 00:04:28,500 the pro-choice side always won 80 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:30,500 whenever this went to the voters. 81 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:31,900 Voters overwhelmingly, 82 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:35,666 even in states that said they were pro-life, voted pro-choice. 83 00:04:35,666 --> 00:04:38,100 And that is because the label pro-life. 84 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:40,600 Pro-Choice is meaningless. 85 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,133 The Republican Party now has a closer division pro-life. 86 00:04:43,133 --> 00:04:45,900 Pro-Choice side advantage. Still pro-choice. 87 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:48,533 But if you ask them who should make the decision, 88 00:04:48,533 --> 00:04:51,266 it's 70 to 80% of Republicans want women 89 00:04:51,266 --> 00:04:52,700 in charge of the decision. 90 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:55,633 People want women to control their own lives. 91 00:04:55,633 --> 00:04:58,466 And that's why this really hurts the Republican Party 92 00:04:58,466 --> 00:05:01,700 that says the party of giving people control of their lives 93 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:04,166 and certainly wanting government out of the boardroom. 94 00:05:04,166 --> 00:05:06,600 And we're saying we'll get them out of the bedroom. Two. 95 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,300 Right. That used to be a very popular phrase. 96 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:09,833 Still is 97 00:05:11,466 --> 00:05:11,733 right. 98 00:05:12,033 --> 00:05:13,200 I did want to jump in. 99 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,533 We don't comment on abortion, but Independent Women's 100 00:05:15,533 --> 00:05:18,533 Voice has done polling when it comes to contraception, 101 00:05:18,533 --> 00:05:22,300 and there is a strong majority in the United States 102 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:25,766 that wants access to safe and affordable 103 00:05:25,766 --> 00:05:28,466 and a wide variety of contraceptive options. 104 00:05:28,466 --> 00:05:30,766 It's, I believe, like nine out of ten 105 00:05:30,766 --> 00:05:33,800 overall, eight out of ten independents and even pro-life 106 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,733 supporters, eight out of ten support access to contraception. 107 00:05:37,733 --> 00:05:41,933 So where I'm concerned with all of these, responses 108 00:05:41,933 --> 00:05:43,866 to the Supreme Court rulings 109 00:05:43,866 --> 00:05:45,600 with vilifying the Supreme Court, 110 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 I don't think that in itself is good for our country 111 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,700 with pretending that, that Republicans 112 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:53,933 and conservatives are against contraception. 113 00:05:53,933 --> 00:05:56,966 it's that it's just fundamentally not true, 114 00:05:56,966 --> 00:05:58,966 and it doesn't reflect what the American people want. 115 00:05:58,966 --> 00:06:02,033 You're saying pretending that Republicans are, 116 00:06:02,033 --> 00:06:05,900 are not for, contraception, 117 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,400 how do you deal with all these cases against the 118 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,733 which were Republican generated, telling 119 00:06:14,733 --> 00:06:16,800 The FDA doesn't have the right to make 120 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:17,966 Mifepristone 121 00:06:17,966 --> 00:06:20,266 legal, even though they have decades 122 00:06:20,266 --> 00:06:23,366 of studies showing that it's not harmful to women. 123 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,366 It's safer than having a baby. 124 00:06:25,366 --> 00:06:28,166 There might be individual cases and individual people 125 00:06:28,166 --> 00:06:30,266 within their conservative movement 126 00:06:30,266 --> 00:06:33,133 and and well aware of that in her decades of work. 127 00:06:33,133 --> 00:06:35,800 So I just wanted to make the point that the majority 128 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,000 of conservative leaning people, conservative leaning women, 129 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,033 do you want access to contraception. 130 00:06:42,033 --> 00:06:43,200 Yeah, you'll get a kick out of this. 131 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:43,600 Bonnie. 132 00:06:44,033 --> 00:06:45,766 When Ken Cuccinelli ran for governor 133 00:06:45,766 --> 00:06:48,566 and he got attacked for being against contraception, 134 00:06:48,566 --> 00:06:50,600 he said, me, I'm not against contraception. 135 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:51,766 I said, Ken, 136 00:06:51,766 --> 00:06:54,533 you're sure the personhood amendment that outlaws most 137 00:06:54,533 --> 00:06:57,633 major forms of contraception looks like it does. 138 00:06:58,066 --> 00:06:58,400 I said, 139 00:06:59,966 --> 00:07:01,533 well, I think. 140 00:07:01,533 --> 00:07:02,833 That but there's no excuse 141 00:07:02,833 --> 00:07:06,500 for a politician being unaware of a policy that he. 142 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:07,600 Said they're male, 143 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,633 that they're unaware, they don't think it through. 144 00:07:10,633 --> 00:07:12,833 I don't I wouldn't paint all males with, 145 00:07:12,833 --> 00:07:15,200 you know, a broad brush A lot of them. 146 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,100 across the tops of their foreheads. 147 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:19,633 But a lot of them, because it doesn't affect 148 00:07:19,633 --> 00:07:22,566 their lives like it does us. They don't think it through. 149 00:07:22,566 --> 00:07:22,966 Tell me 150 00:07:23,766 --> 00:07:26,766 your thoughts on the numbers that Ginny just brought up. 151 00:07:26,766 --> 00:07:30,000 How is it that the polls are showing that 152 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,433 majority of conservative Republicans are for 153 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,533 you know, access to contraception, 154 00:07:36,533 --> 00:07:40,633 and yet you have a court and Christian conservatives 155 00:07:40,633 --> 00:07:44,500 fighting hard to outlaw access to it all over the place, 156 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:44,866 because. 157 00:07:45,466 --> 00:07:47,300 You have pockets of extremists on the issue 158 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,266 that, have the money to be able to file the cases. 159 00:07:51,266 --> 00:07:53,400 But the extremists, you're calling them. 160 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,666 Okay, but they are the base of the Republican Party. 161 00:07:57,666 --> 00:08:00,733 And I don't understand why is it that 162 00:08:00,733 --> 00:08:04,666 this small group of people who you are saying 163 00:08:04,666 --> 00:08:09,066 are out of polls, show are way out of line with, 164 00:08:09,566 --> 00:08:13,566 where the Republican Party is heading policy wise? 165 00:08:13,566 --> 00:08:16,300 Can take the party in that direction. 166 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:17,366 Because you have extremists 167 00:08:17,366 --> 00:08:20,433 that have some very large donors who spout money 168 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,366 that will fund this stuff. 169 00:08:22,366 --> 00:08:23,933 It's way out of touch with where 170 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:27,566 the majority of the people are, and they don't bother to ask. 171 00:08:27,566 --> 00:08:29,200 They make a lot of assumptions. 172 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,566 And Ginny's exactly right with the numbers she's giving. 173 00:08:31,566 --> 00:08:35,766 But let me let me both agree with Ann, but also disagree. 174 00:08:36,033 --> 00:08:39,933 I think one of the things it's important to realize 175 00:08:40,366 --> 00:08:43,800 is that in this debate, we have seen Republicans 176 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,566 all across state legislatures and in state courts 177 00:08:47,866 --> 00:08:52,000 defend and come out against everything from IVF 178 00:08:52,266 --> 00:08:57,700 to contraception to, you know, even being against, 179 00:08:57,966 --> 00:09:01,066 the life of the mother as being 180 00:09:01,066 --> 00:09:04,300 a legitimate reason for an abortion. 181 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:08,166 And that's where this Idaho, you know, Supreme Court case 182 00:09:08,500 --> 00:09:12,133 is really only a temporary small reprieve, 183 00:09:12,933 --> 00:09:16,233 until other legislation ends up coming 184 00:09:16,233 --> 00:09:19,833 before the court to argue whether or not a woman who is 185 00:09:19,833 --> 00:09:24,166 dying can have an abortion in an emergency situation, 186 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:25,633 the Republicans 187 00:09:25,633 --> 00:09:29,366 have, by and large, including in the state of Texas. 188 00:09:29,366 --> 00:09:30,966 We've seen it in Florida. 189 00:09:30,966 --> 00:09:35,700 We've seen the gubernatorial Republican nominee in North 190 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:40,566 Carolina say it does not matter how you got pregnant. 191 00:09:40,566 --> 00:09:45,333 Keep your skirt down, and we don't care what happens. 192 00:09:45,333 --> 00:09:49,133 So why this is becoming such a contentious issue and why 193 00:09:49,133 --> 00:09:54,000 it is far beyond abortion is because Republicans 194 00:09:54,533 --> 00:09:58,300 all across state legislatures and in many 195 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:02,100 of the sort of House races and in Congress 196 00:10:02,466 --> 00:10:06,633 have decided to be against really, a woman's right 197 00:10:06,633 --> 00:10:10,500 to reproductive choice and freedom for her own body. 198 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,600 And I would just temper what Lara said simply by saying 199 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,066 extreme Republicans is not all that broad brush. 200 00:10:17,066 --> 00:10:18,800 Because, again, Ginny's numbers are right. 201 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:19,400 Broad brush. 202 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,833 Republicans are on the 203 00:10:20,833 --> 00:10:23,033 on the side of Democrats on contraception. 204 00:10:23,033 --> 00:10:24,300 There are extreme elements. 205 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,800 Unfortunately, they've gotten elected to state legislatures. 206 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,800 A lot of them are getting thrown out as a result 207 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,100 of these extreme positions. 208 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:31,200 So that's what 209 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,033 the next, next round, we have to get rid of them. 210 00:10:33,033 --> 00:10:34,033 Oh, Lara, I appreciate that you're 211 00:10:34,033 --> 00:10:36,633 referring to women's reproductive freedom 212 00:10:36,633 --> 00:10:38,933 because a real concern that I have coming out of this 213 00:10:38,933 --> 00:10:41,100 decision was that Justice Ketanji 214 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,800 Brown Jackson referred to pregnant people, 215 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,100 and that worries me. 216 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:47,266 If we can't say women, if we can't say 217 00:10:47,266 --> 00:10:49,200 one in and women's rights, 218 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,966 we can't define what a woman is or even say it, then are women 219 00:10:52,966 --> 00:10:54,800 going to lose rights in this country? 220 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:55,533 Your thoughts? 221 00:10:55,833 --> 00:10:58,533 Eleanor, in response to Ginny's point, I mean, 222 00:10:58,866 --> 00:11:03,000 I have to say it bothers me. 223 00:11:03,633 --> 00:11:05,500 This business of calling, 224 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:08,233 you know, that was clearly started by the left, 225 00:11:08,233 --> 00:11:10,933 this business of talking about pregnant persons. 226 00:11:10,933 --> 00:11:14,500 Yes. There may be some trans people 227 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:16,433 who have been able to get pregnant 228 00:11:16,433 --> 00:11:18,300 because they had a uterus, 229 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:21,100 and then they transitioned to men or something, 230 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:22,566 but they're still in the vast 231 00:11:22,566 --> 00:11:25,366 that there aren't thousands of them worldwide. 232 00:11:25,366 --> 00:11:28,066 There aren't even hundreds of them. 233 00:11:28,066 --> 00:11:29,266 And the fact is that 234 00:11:29,266 --> 00:11:33,100 pregnancy is still the province of females in this world. 235 00:11:33,733 --> 00:11:36,566 Is that do you think that is hurting 236 00:11:36,566 --> 00:11:38,633 the Democratic Party at all? 237 00:11:38,633 --> 00:11:42,933 The, the the party wants to call a spade a spade. 238 00:11:44,166 --> 00:11:47,000 And so referring 239 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,333 to, to pregnant persons does not have an amply 240 00:11:50,933 --> 00:11:55,233 does not amply describe pregnancy. 241 00:11:55,233 --> 00:11:58,466 What they are trying to do is recognize 242 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:03,200 biological women who identify as men 243 00:12:03,466 --> 00:12:06,466 and who have decided that they are trans 244 00:12:06,933 --> 00:12:11,733 males, even though, they actually have 245 00:12:11,733 --> 00:12:15,666 all of the reproductive capabilities of a woman. 246 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:19,533 And I, I happen to agree with you, I actually think 247 00:12:19,833 --> 00:12:23,133 if you still have all of the reproductive abilities 248 00:12:23,133 --> 00:12:26,733 to, become pregnant and birth 249 00:12:26,733 --> 00:12:29,933 a child, then we should think of you as a woman. 250 00:12:29,933 --> 00:12:31,766 And, Jenny, thank you for bringing this up, 251 00:12:31,766 --> 00:12:34,933 because I really think this is something that has hurt women 252 00:12:34,933 --> 00:12:37,100 overall and is definitely hurt. The Democratic Party. 253 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:39,366 And it is one of the reason minorities, 254 00:12:39,366 --> 00:12:41,866 especially Hispanics, are moving to Republicans. 255 00:12:41,866 --> 00:12:44,666 Really that you see that as a trend? 256 00:12:44,666 --> 00:12:46,800 Yeah, it's in the polling. Yeah. Okay. 257 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,700 All right. Very interesting. they do not like it, okay. 258 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:52,866 So let's get back to and let's sum up if we can, where we think 259 00:12:52,866 --> 00:12:56,633 all this is going to play out politically in the fall. 260 00:12:57,766 --> 00:13:00,700 do you think that the party's position on abortion, 261 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:03,766 the Supreme Court rulings on abortion, Ann Stone 262 00:13:04,033 --> 00:13:07,566 are going to deliver the presidency to Joe Biden? 263 00:13:07,966 --> 00:13:10,800 No, because I think there's going to be ticket splitting. 264 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,066 I don't think it's going to affect the national vote. 265 00:13:13,066 --> 00:13:16,066 I think it may affect Senate close Senate races, 266 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:18,433 and it may affect some House races, 267 00:13:18,433 --> 00:13:20,433 especially Senate, though, because they're the ones 268 00:13:20,433 --> 00:13:22,300 that they see tied to the judges. 269 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:24,700 that's where I see it's more likely, 270 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,133 but there's going to be definite ticket splitting 271 00:13:27,133 --> 00:13:30,666 and Trump the way his positions of an issue has helped himself. 272 00:13:31,233 --> 00:13:32,233 inoculate. 273 00:13:32,233 --> 00:13:36,033 I'll leave the political, predictions to to. 274 00:13:36,033 --> 00:13:39,033 And I'm a policy person through and through. 275 00:13:39,266 --> 00:13:40,466 Okay. Lara. 276 00:13:40,466 --> 00:13:43,600 Well, I actually think that it is going to roll up 277 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,066 and it is going to matter. 278 00:13:45,066 --> 00:13:48,733 if we look back to 2016, the reality is, 279 00:13:48,733 --> 00:13:53,133 in the most contested Senate races, the Republican senators 280 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:58,200 won those in states like Wisconsin and, Florida. 281 00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:02,766 And what that actually did was they earned more votes 282 00:14:02,766 --> 00:14:06,533 than Donald Trump did in 2016, and they are the ones 283 00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:08,166 who actually helped pull him 284 00:14:08,166 --> 00:14:11,900 over the Electoral College finish line. 285 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:15,466 And I do think that we will see a similar thing, 286 00:14:15,466 --> 00:14:18,466 but with the opposite party 287 00:14:18,466 --> 00:14:22,600 being the beneficiary in this election, candidates 288 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,233 like Kari Lake will essentially be losing. 289 00:14:26,233 --> 00:14:30,633 And because she will lose, her, Democratic opponent, 290 00:14:30,633 --> 00:14:33,633 Ruben Gallego, will likely help bring, 291 00:14:33,833 --> 00:14:38,066 President Biden over the reelection finish line. 292 00:14:38,066 --> 00:14:39,866 Eleanor, your thoughts and particularly 293 00:14:39,866 --> 00:14:40,700 on the black vote, 294 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,800 I know we had this conversation four years ago with you 295 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,466 where there were 296 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:47,933 all these Republican claims that, you know, Trump 297 00:14:47,933 --> 00:14:52,000 was going to get a much larger, percent of support 298 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,500 from black voters than, in fact, he ended up getting. 299 00:14:55,733 --> 00:14:58,833 Is that and and with Hispanic voters, 300 00:14:58,833 --> 00:15:03,200 is 2024 going to be a repeat of 2020 301 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,333 and that Biden will win and he will carry people, 302 00:15:06,333 --> 00:15:07,800 voters of color, 303 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,333 abortion issue or not, or will that not happen? 304 00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:13,600 Well, Democrats usually, 305 00:15:16,033 --> 00:15:17,900 I mean, 306 00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:20,900 constituents in, in, in this country 307 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:26,333 usually vote, Democratic and in matters like this. 308 00:15:26,333 --> 00:15:30,700 And I expect that while Biden has been losing, 309 00:15:31,666 --> 00:15:34,100 some Democrats. 310 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,066 And that's very worrisome. 311 00:15:36,066 --> 00:15:40,233 I'm expecting that before November. 312 00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:43,866 He will pick them back up again when they see what's at stake. 313 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:45,666 Losing them for what reason? 314 00:15:45,666 --> 00:15:48,666 Both candidates are unpopular. 315 00:15:48,933 --> 00:15:51,966 So, and the Democratic 316 00:15:51,966 --> 00:15:55,066 candidate, the Republican candidate is a popular. 317 00:15:56,066 --> 00:15:58,733 And that means that, 318 00:15:58,733 --> 00:16:02,366 that, Joe Biden is going to have to work 319 00:16:02,366 --> 00:16:05,366 very hard to get back to where he was 320 00:16:06,033 --> 00:16:10,300 when, black Democrats supported him wholeheartedly 321 00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:12,400 because he has lost 322 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,900 a great number of them. The 323 00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:15,600 I don't know what in the world they're going to do. 324 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,300 I can't expect them to vote Republican, 325 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:21,800 but staying at home is enough to hurt Joe Biden. 326 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:22,533 All right. 327 00:16:22,533 --> 00:16:23,566 Thank you so much. 328 00:16:23,566 --> 00:16:26,633 From the upcoming election to the debate over 329 00:16:26,633 --> 00:16:27,866 charter schools, 330 00:16:27,866 --> 00:16:31,866 no taxpayers, public funds for religious charter schools, 331 00:16:31,866 --> 00:16:34,300 back to the ruling from the Oklahoma Supreme Court 332 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:37,333 this week as it stopped what would have been 333 00:16:37,333 --> 00:16:40,300 the first publicly funded religious charter school 334 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,733 in the U.S., the court rejected a proposed, state financed 335 00:16:44,733 --> 00:16:48,433 Catholic charter school approved by a state education 336 00:16:48,433 --> 00:16:51,733 board, saying it violated the state and U.S. 337 00:16:51,733 --> 00:16:53,033 constitutions. 338 00:16:53,033 --> 00:16:55,166 The case is bound for the Supreme Court, 339 00:16:55,166 --> 00:16:55,600 which has 340 00:16:56,433 --> 00:16:59,733 expanded the use of tax dollars to support religious education. 341 00:16:59,966 --> 00:17:04,600 All right, Lara Brown, do you see, some similarities 342 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,066 between this, issue 343 00:17:07,066 --> 00:17:10,966 and what and Stone has discussed in terms of abortion rights? 344 00:17:10,966 --> 00:17:14,600 In other words, a few zealots within the Republican Party 345 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,600 who want public money, you know, who have been trying 346 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,866 for decades and decades and decades 347 00:17:19,866 --> 00:17:23,033 to break down the wall between church and state. 348 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,333 Do you see them eventually winning before the Supreme Court 349 00:17:27,333 --> 00:17:30,200 and then creating a counter movement, 350 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,233 as they have with abortion rights? 351 00:17:33,233 --> 00:17:38,500 Well, I don't think that this is quite as, catalyzing or as, 352 00:17:39,866 --> 00:17:40,466 sort of, 353 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,666 something to build as strong of a movement 354 00:17:43,666 --> 00:17:45,500 we've seen over the last 20 years, more 355 00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:47,633 and more Americans becoming secular. 356 00:17:47,633 --> 00:17:52,800 So I think it's harder to actually even engage 357 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,900 more than the traditionally religiously observant, 358 00:17:56,900 --> 00:17:58,733 in this issue. 359 00:17:58,733 --> 00:18:02,200 And those individuals who are pushing the court, 360 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,333 have largely failed before the court. 361 00:18:05,333 --> 00:18:08,400 So I think it is important that the First Amendment is 362 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,500 very clear that the government has no role in establishing 363 00:18:12,766 --> 00:18:17,266 a religious, religiously affiliated institution. 364 00:18:17,466 --> 00:18:20,466 And, that was really what was at issue here. 365 00:18:20,466 --> 00:18:24,266 It wasn't just about, say, voucher money 366 00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:27,966 or something that I have long wondered about, 367 00:18:27,966 --> 00:18:32,100 which is federal student loan dollars going to support, 368 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,266 religious colleges. 369 00:18:34,266 --> 00:18:38,333 We have sort of a tradition in some way of 370 00:18:38,533 --> 00:18:41,533 faith based initiatives support 371 00:18:42,133 --> 00:18:47,000 and that, you know, has been around for decades. 372 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,233 But I think the active kind of encouragement 373 00:18:51,233 --> 00:18:56,300 and establishment of religion, so deeply 374 00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:00,833 into the public school system is being rejected by the court. 375 00:19:01,133 --> 00:19:04,566 And I, I imagine it will continue to be rejected 376 00:19:04,566 --> 00:19:08,566 because, as many people know, this is not simply 377 00:19:08,566 --> 00:19:10,133 about Christianity. 378 00:19:10,133 --> 00:19:16,100 It is about all of, you know, the potential religions or, 379 00:19:16,333 --> 00:19:21,366 purported cults that may decide that they are a religion. 380 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,700 well, and also, quite frankly, an influx of I'm just curious. 381 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:27,600 I have no idea how they would react 382 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,200 if they would react at all. 383 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,533 But there's been a large amount of Islamic immigration 384 00:19:32,933 --> 00:19:37,400 in the last, 10 or 15 years to the United States. 385 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:38,766 How would Americans react 386 00:19:38,766 --> 00:19:42,700 if there were a, taxpayer dollars financed, 387 00:19:43,066 --> 00:19:46,966 Islamic Academy set up or a series of them? 388 00:19:46,966 --> 00:19:47,666 That's a point that's 389 00:19:48,066 --> 00:19:50,833 often brought up in their school choice or education 390 00:19:50,833 --> 00:19:51,900 freedom debates. 391 00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,733 And as an education freedom advocate for the last 392 00:19:54,733 --> 00:19:57,766 quarter of a century, I'd say it's it's not the like, 393 00:19:57,766 --> 00:20:00,333 gotcha kind of argument that people think that it is. 394 00:20:00,333 --> 00:20:03,200 There are plenty of Islamic private schools, 395 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,966 education, freedom to report the the flow of scholarship 396 00:20:06,966 --> 00:20:09,400 programs, education, savings accounts, 397 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,666 other mechanisms that give parents 398 00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:13,200 the right to choose a school 399 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,433 that's the best fit for their child. 400 00:20:15,433 --> 00:20:19,700 We are talking about a different mechanism with this state 401 00:20:20,333 --> 00:20:21,200 charter school. 402 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,333 It's a virtual school, 403 00:20:22,333 --> 00:20:25,600 actually, that has a Catholic affiliation. 404 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,233 And I want to share good news for Oklahoma families 405 00:20:28,233 --> 00:20:31,100 who wanted to send their kids to this charter school. 406 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:34,833 In the process of this school getting set up, Oklahoma passed, 407 00:20:34,833 --> 00:20:37,600 Universal School Choice Program, a tax credit 408 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,966 where families can get I think it's like $7,500 409 00:20:40,966 --> 00:20:44,566 tax credit for educational expenses. 410 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,733 So there are other ways 411 00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:49,300 for families to access educational options 412 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:50,466 if they're residentially assigned. 413 00:20:50,466 --> 00:20:52,300 Public school isn't a good fit for them. 414 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:53,900 I think direct subsidies 415 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,766 of any religious school, whether it's, Islamic, it's, 416 00:20:57,766 --> 00:21:01,733 Catholic, Lutheran, Wiccan, any of those things. 417 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,266 Wrong, bad, slippery slope. 418 00:21:04,266 --> 00:21:05,500 And if I were the Catholic Church, 419 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:08,300 I wouldn't want the government involved because, 420 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:09,500 you know, you open that door, 421 00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:11,100 there's other regulations that'll come along. 422 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,566 It's just a really, really, really bad idea. 423 00:21:13,566 --> 00:21:16,766 But a couple of things I want to follow up with you on that. 424 00:21:16,766 --> 00:21:19,033 First and foremost, I presume it's state money 425 00:21:19,033 --> 00:21:23,166 you were referring to about the $7,500 tax credit. 426 00:21:23,166 --> 00:21:24,966 That's a large chunk of change, 427 00:21:24,966 --> 00:21:28,033 and it's something the state has the power to do. 428 00:21:28,033 --> 00:21:31,066 But what if they tried to get one on the federal level? 429 00:21:31,066 --> 00:21:35,333 There are efforts underway to have a federal tax credit. 430 00:21:35,333 --> 00:21:39,233 but let's look at the successes at the state level and, 431 00:21:39,233 --> 00:21:43,266 and know that there are 12 states now with universal school 432 00:21:43,266 --> 00:21:45,400 choice programs, sometimes tax credit, sometimes 433 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,766 education savings account program, close to 30 states 434 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,900 that have some kind of private scholarship program. 435 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:52,600 The Supreme Court 436 00:21:52,966 --> 00:21:55,800 has ruled three times to protect these programs. 437 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,966 So this is settled if the if the state has established 438 00:21:59,966 --> 00:22:02,566 an education, freedom or a school choice program, 439 00:22:02,566 --> 00:22:06,233 they award scholarships to to families, 440 00:22:06,466 --> 00:22:08,733 not they don't directly fund the schools. 441 00:22:08,733 --> 00:22:10,633 They direct it to the families. 442 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:12,266 The state can't discriminate. 443 00:22:12,266 --> 00:22:14,566 The state doesn't have to establish a program. 444 00:22:14,566 --> 00:22:16,066 But if it does, the Supreme Court 445 00:22:16,066 --> 00:22:17,300 has said repeatedly 446 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:20,166 the state can't discriminate against religious institutions 447 00:22:20,166 --> 00:22:21,600 because they are religious. 448 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,200 Ginny, do you know what Bill Clinton's position was? 449 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:24,966 You know, Bill Clinton 450 00:22:24,966 --> 00:22:27,166 was one of the biggest proponents 451 00:22:27,166 --> 00:22:30,133 of school choice, one of the earliest on the national level. 452 00:22:30,133 --> 00:22:32,500 And, do you know what his position was on scholarships? 453 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:33,800 I think he was okay with them. 454 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,033 He was, more outspoken on on charter schools. 455 00:22:37,033 --> 00:22:38,600 Scholarships were at the beginning 456 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,800 of their, of their growth and his era. 457 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,800 But school choice used to be very bipartisan. 458 00:22:45,133 --> 00:22:49,166 Cory Booker in the Senate, was an example of of a 459 00:22:49,166 --> 00:22:53,566 supporter, Joe Lieberman, huge supporter of school choice. 460 00:22:53,566 --> 00:22:56,666 So there were there were there was plenty of bipartisan 461 00:22:56,666 --> 00:22:59,933 support, among national, politicians. 462 00:22:59,933 --> 00:23:02,066 And there still is, at the state level, 463 00:23:02,066 --> 00:23:03,466 which is encouraging to see one. 464 00:23:03,466 --> 00:23:07,033 Of the most fundamental propositions in our Constitution 465 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:11,900 is, the, separation of church and state. 466 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:14,933 That's why I was shocked to 467 00:23:14,933 --> 00:23:18,133 see any funding of anything 468 00:23:18,433 --> 00:23:21,133 the state, church related. 469 00:23:21,133 --> 00:23:24,133 And that's why the Oklahoma Supreme Court, 470 00:23:24,333 --> 00:23:27,733 didn't have any problem, with this, this issue, 471 00:23:28,533 --> 00:23:31,666 fundamental in our Constitution 472 00:23:32,233 --> 00:23:34,233 is the separation of church and state. 473 00:23:34,233 --> 00:23:37,400 And that goes for schools as for anything else. 474 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,766 But we know, you know, the height of that, 475 00:23:39,766 --> 00:23:43,500 the height of the separation was probably in the 60s and 70s. 476 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:46,633 And there's been a religious backlash against that. 477 00:23:46,633 --> 00:23:48,333 And they've been trying to take down the wall, 478 00:23:48,333 --> 00:23:50,766 brick by brick by brick ever since. 479 00:23:50,766 --> 00:23:52,000 Once they pulled 480 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,000 the last brick out of the wall and it collapses. 481 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:59,100 Do you see this, as an issue today 482 00:23:59,333 --> 00:24:04,766 that would energize voters to, change that policy? 483 00:24:04,766 --> 00:24:08,100 Is something that will energize, 484 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:12,433 constituents of this, of Oklahoma. 485 00:24:12,433 --> 00:24:15,866 And I think that it will energize 486 00:24:15,866 --> 00:24:18,866 Americans throughout the United States when they see 487 00:24:18,866 --> 00:24:22,733 something is blatant as this happening so late 488 00:24:23,333 --> 00:24:25,200 in, in our country, when I thought 489 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,500 this was a settled issue where. 490 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:28,000 Private schools do receive 491 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,333 direct federal funding for, say, the federal, school 492 00:24:31,333 --> 00:24:35,666 lunch program, some receive funding for other initiatives. 493 00:24:35,666 --> 00:24:38,133 But by and large, they don't want to 494 00:24:38,133 --> 00:24:43,300 because they they want the the freedom from the, from the, 495 00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:48,333 the bureaucracy and the and the the paperwork and the just the. 496 00:24:48,333 --> 00:24:50,900 Reporting requirements that come from. 497 00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:51,133 Yeah. 498 00:24:51,933 --> 00:24:53,600 So they don't necessarily want to sign up for 499 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,133 for more onerous requirements from the federal government. 500 00:24:56,133 --> 00:24:58,400 I don't think we need to worry about that that too much. 501 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,200 Well, there is another mechanism. 502 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,533 Let's not forget. 503 00:25:01,533 --> 00:25:02,566 Parents can just 504 00:25:02,566 --> 00:25:06,266 start paying tuition the way they do for, for, 505 00:25:06,266 --> 00:25:09,666 you know, Muslim schools already in existence for, 506 00:25:10,133 --> 00:25:12,100 of which there are many more and more 507 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,266 and more in this country for Jewish schools, 508 00:25:14,266 --> 00:25:17,266 I don't know about for Wiccan schools, but, for, 509 00:25:17,466 --> 00:25:21,466 for Catholic schools, so that that is an option, too. 510 00:25:21,466 --> 00:25:22,333 It's just not. 511 00:25:22,333 --> 00:25:23,433 Not everyone can afford it. 512 00:25:23,433 --> 00:25:24,966 Bonnie, you asked whether or not this 513 00:25:24,966 --> 00:25:26,500 would be an energizing issue. 514 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:28,633 Do you know what created the Moral Majority? 515 00:25:28,633 --> 00:25:29,633 It was when, 516 00:25:29,633 --> 00:25:30,733 the federal government 517 00:25:30,733 --> 00:25:32,400 wanted to go in and forward 518 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,900 the tax status of religious schools, 519 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:36,500 so that would energize them. 520 00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:39,066 This one, this is not the same kind of thing. 521 00:25:39,066 --> 00:25:39,833 All right. 522 00:25:40,133 --> 00:25:42,233 Thank you all for very enlightening discussion. 523 00:25:42,233 --> 00:25:43,733 That's it for this edition. 524 00:25:43,733 --> 00:25:46,833 Keep the conversation going on our social media platforms. 525 00:25:47,233 --> 00:25:48,600 Reach out to us at. 526 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,266 To the contrary, visit our website, please. 527 00:25:51,266 --> 00:25:53,733 The address is on the bottom of the screen 528 00:25:53,733 --> 00:25:57,366 and whether you agree or think to the contrary, see 529 00:25:57,366 --> 00:25:58,000 you next time.