1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,566 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 2 00:01:51,433 --> 00:01:53,700 This week on To The Contrary: 3 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:57,933 This is not a problem that consumers created, 4 00:01:57,933 --> 00:02:02,766 but I do think the consumer has power that 5 00:02:03,266 --> 00:02:05,866 perhaps many are unaware of. 6 00:02:05,866 --> 00:02:06,700 What is accessible to 7 00:02:07,033 --> 00:02:10,500 you might be a, quote unquote, fast fashion item 8 00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:13,400 but it doesn't have to be fast fashion in use 9 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:14,800 if you take really good care of it. 10 00:02:34,866 --> 00:02:36,933 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé. 11 00:02:36,933 --> 00:02:39,733 Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news 12 00:02:39,733 --> 00:02:42,766 and social trends from varied perspectives. 13 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,366 Fast fashion has revolutionized the clothing industry 14 00:02:47,633 --> 00:02:51,566 by making trendy, lo cost garments widely available. 15 00:02:51,833 --> 00:02:54,833 But it's also sparked growing controversy. 16 00:02:54,833 --> 00:02:58,833 Critics argue the industry's emphasis on speed and volume 17 00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:01,533 contributes to environmental harm 18 00:03:01,533 --> 00:03:04,533 and exploitative labor practices. 19 00:03:04,866 --> 00:03:08,733 As consumer awareness rises, the debate over fast 20 00:03:08,733 --> 00:03:11,900 fashion's true cost is gaining momentum 21 00:03:12,133 --> 00:03:15,133 on both social and political fronts. 22 00:03:15,366 --> 00:03:19,100 With us to discuss this is Allyson Chiu, 23 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:22,200 climate solutions reporter for The Washington Post, 24 00:03:22,466 --> 00:03:27,166 and Paula Carbone, a professo at the University of California. 25 00:03:27,166 --> 00:03:29,133 Welcome, ladies. 26 00:03:29,133 --> 00:03:33,200 So, Professor Carbone why don't you start and explain 27 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,333 in a little more depth to people in the audience, 28 00:03:36,333 --> 00:03:38,833 what fast fashion is? 29 00:03:38,833 --> 00:03:42,066 Fast fashion is usually defined 30 00:03:42,666 --> 00:03:45,966 as being able to create 31 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,266 a lot of new fashions 32 00:03:49,266 --> 00:03:52,466 in a very, very short amount of time 33 00:03:53,066 --> 00:03:56,200 that are poorly made, 34 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,266 meant to be used once or twice and then discarded. 35 00:04:01,833 --> 00:04:04,333 And there has been a little bit 36 00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:08,300 of a push to standardize the definition 37 00:04:08,833 --> 00:04:11,933 and talk about, well, this many 38 00:04:11,933 --> 00:04:15,700 new items in a day or a week. 39 00:04:15,933 --> 00:04:17,200 But right now 40 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,966 that's the general working definition, I believe. 41 00:04:20,966 --> 00:04:22,766 Allyson, your thoughts? 42 00:04:22,766 --> 00:04:24,033 What does it mean? 43 00:04:24,033 --> 00:04:27,466 How is it different from prior generations of fashion? 44 00:04:27,766 --> 00:04:30,400 Yeah, I think, Professor Carbone really touched on the 45 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,700 the main point there, which is when it comes to fast fashion, 46 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:37,066 the first thing that comes to mind is always volume and 47 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:40,800 the amount of styles that are coming out. 48 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,000 And so I think one thin that experts have always told me 49 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,600 is that, you know, we're seeing really high 50 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,866 turnover, a lot of, you know, more trendy pieces, 51 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:53,600 and all of that really, 52 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,800 you know, just contributes to sort of this incredible 53 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,633 volume of clothing that we see these days. 54 00:04:58,633 --> 00:04:59,700 And what has happened 55 00:04:59,966 --> 00:05:04,133 to clothing that doesn't sell if everything's being made in 56 00:05:04,433 --> 00:05:05,366 great volumes 57 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:08,433 and some of them are going to turn out to be clunkers 58 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,900 as far as the market is concerned, 59 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:14,000 what do the companies do with these clothes? 60 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,266 I imagine that they're discarded 61 00:05:17,766 --> 00:05:20,766 and generally in the trash. 62 00:05:20,766 --> 00:05:25,866 Some might be collected to recycle, but 63 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,700 it's been found that a lot of the fashions 64 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:34,400 that are collected for recycling actually are never recycled. 65 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,500 So this just adds to the problem. 66 00:05:38,733 --> 00:05:42,266 If you're making hundreds or thousands of garments 67 00:05:42,266 --> 00:05:45,666 at a time, and one line just doesn't sell 68 00:05:45,666 --> 00:05:49,300 very well, what—does it end up in garbage cans? 69 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:51,700 Does it end up in the ocean? 70 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:52,933 Does it end up— 71 00:05:52,933 --> 00:05:53,933 Where does it end up? 72 00:05:53,933 --> 00:05:55,000 Where do people put— 73 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,866 put these things that are of no use? 74 00:05:56,866 --> 00:06:00,900 When there's so much volum that is not just, you know, left 75 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,133 in stores bu people are buying these things. 76 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:06,800 So, you know, we often see, we have some— 77 00:06:07,033 --> 00:06:10,866 some consumer research dat showing that people are buying 78 00:06:10,866 --> 00:06:14,433 new clothes far more frequently than they probably need. 79 00:06:14,433 --> 00:06:16,000 And so when that happens, you know, 80 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,133 you get the annual spring cleaning 81 00:06:20,333 --> 00:06:20,966 purge. 82 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,033 And oftentimes people will bring that to, 83 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:27,066 you know, donation places. 84 00:06:27,066 --> 00:06:30,066 And, you know, we know that 85 00:06:30,866 --> 00:06:33,700 some of those clothes do end up back 86 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,433 in circulation, whether that's, you know, through 87 00:06:36,433 --> 00:06:41,300 like stores run by donation facilities. 88 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:44,266 But a lot of times people are donating clothing 89 00:06:44,266 --> 00:06:46,500 that is either stained or ripped 90 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,500 or just really poor quality, that is not eligible for resale. 91 00:06:51,266 --> 00:06:54,466 And as Professor Carbone just mentioned, 92 00:06:54,466 --> 00:06:57,566 you know, those items are then— 93 00:06:58,733 --> 00:07:00,633 the fate of those have become a little bit more murky, 94 00:07:00,633 --> 00:07:03,700 basically, so it can go in several directions. 95 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:07,533 You can sometimes find clothing ends up in the rag trade, 96 00:07:07,533 --> 00:07:08,133 which is, 97 00:07:08,866 --> 00:07:12,800 you know, sort of a devalue version of what it used to be, 98 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,733 or it potentially gets shipped overseas to other countries. 99 00:07:16,733 --> 00:07:17,266 And then 100 00:07:17,933 --> 00:07:20,400 at the end of all of it, maybe a decent chunk of 101 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:21,400 it ends up in the trash. 102 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,033 In 2018, the EPA found that landfills 103 00:07:25,033 --> 00:07:28,033 received 11.3 million tons of textiles, 104 00:07:28,033 --> 00:07:31,466 which is more than 7% of its total municipal solid waste. 105 00:07:31,466 --> 00:07:33,466 So that's a lot. 106 00:07:33,466 --> 00:07:34,933 And oftentimes 107 00:07:34,933 --> 00:07:35,800 there's not 108 00:07:36,333 --> 00:07:39,066 an exact sort of accountin of what makes up those textiles. 109 00:07:39,066 --> 00:07:43,233 But from what we know, again, about the volume of clothing 110 00:07:43,233 --> 00:07:45,833 that is being produced and purchased, 111 00:07:45,833 --> 00:07:48,266 that clothing does make u a significant portion of that. 112 00:07:48,266 --> 00:07:51,333 Now, is it only being produced in the United States or— 113 00:07:51,333 --> 00:07:54,866 I had, I guess, a fantasy of that 114 00:07:54,866 --> 00:07:59,800 a lot of this was being produced in Asia and places 115 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,666 where you could get stuff out much more quickly 116 00:08:03,666 --> 00:08:05,000 than in the US. 117 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,300 I think that quite a bit of it is produced 118 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:12,333 outside of the U.S as well as 119 00:08:12,333 --> 00:08:15,500 in the US. Shein 120 00:08:16,766 --> 00:08:19,866 is certainly one of the big actors; 121 00:08:19,866 --> 00:08:23,300 Uniqlo and Zara, 122 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:26,600 these are three of the really big actors, 123 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,600 along with countless others who do this. 124 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,600 And Shein produces 125 00:08:34,533 --> 00:08:37,833 countless new fashions daily. 126 00:08:38,266 --> 00:08:44,233 So it's just a huge machine that has many, 127 00:08:44,233 --> 00:08:49,200 many different parts to keep this cycle going. 128 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,133 But both of you, isn't saving— 129 00:08:52,133 --> 00:08:55,833 Aren't the producers of this clothing going to realize 130 00:08:55,833 --> 00:08:56,933 after a while, hey, 131 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,933 some of these ideas aren' selling so well with the public. 132 00:09:00,133 --> 00:09:03,000 Maybe we should wait and try out a line for a week 133 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,266 and see how it sells before you make a huge batch. 134 00:09:06,266 --> 00:09:07,400 Is anything like that 135 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,400 likely to happen? As you sort of alluded to, 136 00:09:11,233 --> 00:09:14,833 the ways that these companies behave are 137 00:09:14,833 --> 00:09:19,033 largely attached to what consumers are interested in. 138 00:09:19,033 --> 00:09:22,933 So this is really a space where consumers 139 00:09:22,933 --> 00:09:24,666 can really make a difference 140 00:09:24,666 --> 00:09:26,833 in term of what they signal to brands. 141 00:09:26,833 --> 00:09:30,400 And so, you know, that can come from 142 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,633 how much you buy of something. 143 00:09:32,633 --> 00:09:34,700 And the more people buy, right, 144 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,533 the more that signals to brands that there is a demand for 145 00:09:38,533 --> 00:09:39,466 more clothing. 146 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,200 And so I, you know when it comes to specific lines, 147 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,933 I can't say that I have a lot of insight into, 148 00:09:46,366 --> 00:09:49,533 you know, what is going on behind the scenes with brands 149 00:09:49,533 --> 00:09:52,733 and their decisio making around what to produce. 150 00:09:53,133 --> 00:09:57,533 But, you know, we do know from market research that 151 00:09:58,700 --> 00:09:59,800 what consumers 152 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,900 are purchasing really does influence 153 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:07,366 how these brands reac and in turn, what they produce. 154 00:10:07,666 --> 00:10:10,933 Now, what about regulations, Professor Carbone? 155 00:10:11,266 --> 00:10:15,000 What—do local 156 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,466 authorities have more control over better garments, 157 00:10:18,733 --> 00:10:22,466 not fast fashion and more control 158 00:10:22,466 --> 00:10:26,233 to get the owners to dispose 159 00:10:26,466 --> 00:10:29,200 in a way that doesn't harm the environment, 160 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,933 the clothes that they just make way too many copies of? 161 00:10:31,933 --> 00:10:33,600 Well, that would be ideal. 162 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:39,400 But, from my understanding, that hasn't really happened. 163 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,100 There has been some policy voted into law. 164 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:50,533 In California, there's the Garment Workers Act, 165 00:10:50,533 --> 00:10:55,500 which guarantees a living wage to garment workers. 166 00:10:56,033 --> 00:10:58,666 And France, I believe, just 167 00:10:58,666 --> 00:11:02,233 passed legislation about 168 00:11:02,866 --> 00:11:05,533 limiting advertising, 169 00:11:05,533 --> 00:11:08,533 placing, sort of, 170 00:11:09,166 --> 00:11:12,866 extra price to 171 00:11:12,866 --> 00:11:16,433 fashions produced this way to 172 00:11:17,366 --> 00:11:18,533 give that extra 173 00:11:18,533 --> 00:11:21,533 money to help the environment that has been 174 00:11:22,433 --> 00:11:23,566 damaged. 175 00:11:23,566 --> 00:11:28,733 And that price will go up by 2030, apparently. 176 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,533 And I think those are 177 00:11:32,533 --> 00:11:35,933 definitely steps in the right direction. 178 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,366 But, you know, right now we have so many harms. 179 00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:45,500 If you just start a the beginning with the brands, 180 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,100 designers are able to copy 181 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,566 a fashion on Instagram that a celebrity might be 182 00:11:53,566 --> 00:11:57,666 wearing and that product can be ready 183 00:11:57,666 --> 00:12:00,700 in a day—a new design. 184 00:12:00,700 --> 00:12:04,233 And so they're stealing the designs 185 00:12:04,233 --> 00:12:06,800 from the original designer. 186 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,300 And, 187 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:11,500 you know, there's just harm 188 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:15,500 kind of at every level of this chain. 189 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:18,666 So while those policies are going to help, 190 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,733 I think what Allyson said about the consumer, 191 00:12:23,733 --> 00:12:28,033 and I don't want to put the weight on the consumer 192 00:12:28,033 --> 00:12:32,533 because this is not a problem that consumers created. 193 00:12:32,533 --> 00:12:36,100 And I'm a consumer, we're all consumers. But 194 00:12:37,233 --> 00:12:41,066 I do think the consumer has 195 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,733 power that perhaps many are unaware of. 196 00:12:45,933 --> 00:12:49,166 So how do you think consumers, professor, how do you think 197 00:12:49,166 --> 00:12:52,600 consumers should be using that power to signal 198 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,033 to producers, hey, this line is just not attractive. 199 00:12:57,966 --> 00:13:00,166 Throw it out, get rid of it, get another one. 200 00:13:00,166 --> 00:13:01,800 That's a good question. 201 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,133 And I would say it goes even beyond 202 00:13:05,133 --> 00:13:08,133 not liking the fashion. 203 00:13:08,833 --> 00:13:12,766 I think it really goes to becoming educated, 204 00:13:12,766 --> 00:13:17,733 which more and more consumers are becoming educated. 205 00:13:17,733 --> 00:13:20,733 There's more media on this now. 206 00:13:20,733 --> 00:13:25,466 It's more on all the social network. But 207 00:13:26,933 --> 00:13:31,500 as I said, you know I don't want to blame consumers 208 00:13:32,033 --> 00:13:35,433 because they're being so manipulated 209 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,233 by marketing, by influencers. 210 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:47,700 Just by being a teenager and not wanting to be 211 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:50,966 on the out of the in crowd, so to speak. 212 00:13:51,766 --> 00:13:57,100 Its just a very complicated psychological issue 213 00:13:57,100 --> 00:14:01,666 that people can, in fact, become addicted to shopping 214 00:14:02,066 --> 00:14:05,366 because it gives people a sense of euphoria. 215 00:14:05,366 --> 00:14:07,000 And they want to repeat that. 216 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,333 And so, you know, as a professor, 217 00:14:11,333 --> 00:14:15,233 I think education is very important. 218 00:14:16,033 --> 00:14:18,400 But also to join 219 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,533 some of these movements to reuse and repair. 220 00:14:23,933 --> 00:14:28,533 I know that some manufacturers who are sustainable, 221 00:14:29,033 --> 00:14:33,266 they give repair tags now with their clothing. 222 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:37,533 There's a movement to repair visibly 223 00:14:37,866 --> 00:14:41,666 so that you can kind of wear it as a badge of honor. 224 00:14:41,666 --> 00:14:46,300 Oh, I had a hole here, but, so I'm going to make a design 225 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:49,300 and cover it and Im sustainable 226 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:53,166 So I think that, you know, may 227 00:14:53,166 --> 00:14:56,133 start to get more traction. 228 00:14:56,133 --> 00:15:00,133 We are seeing that, especially among younger shoppers, 229 00:15:00,133 --> 00:15:03,866 that there is a really keen interest in 230 00:15:05,366 --> 00:15:07,800 being a more conscious consumer. 231 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,700 And that starts with both you know, how much you're buying 232 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:12,533 and also how you're, 233 00:15:12,933 --> 00:15:15,800 as Professor Carbone mentioned, you know, how you're 234 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,833 taking care of your clothes and really thinking, 235 00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:20,866 you know, end to end holistically about 236 00:15:21,533 --> 00:15:24,500 what am I doing at the moment that I might purchase 237 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:27,666 something, whether it's new, whether it's secondhand. 238 00:15:27,666 --> 00:15:28,900 And then what am I going to do with it 239 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:31,566 over the course of its lifespan with me? 240 00:15:31,566 --> 00:15:34,366 And then what happens at its end of life? 241 00:15:34,366 --> 00:15:35,533 And 242 00:15:35,533 --> 00:15:37,200 one thing that I have heard time and time again 243 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,233 from sustainable fashion experts 244 00:15:39,233 --> 00:15:42,500 is that just because you know, you're personally done 245 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:43,766 with something doesn't mean that 246 00:15:43,766 --> 00:15:46,833 that is the end of the life for that garment, right? 247 00:15:46,833 --> 00:15:48,700 Like it can go on to somebody else. 248 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:50,866 It can become something else. 249 00:15:50,866 --> 00:15:54,366 And I think a lot of consumers are now thinking through 250 00:15:54,366 --> 00:15:58,766 that whole entire lifespan of a product versus 251 00:15:58,766 --> 00:16:01,466 perhaps in the past it might have been, 252 00:16:01,466 --> 00:16:03,900 you know, you're in the shop and you see something cute 253 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:07,200 that you like and you're like, well, yeah, I'll buy that. 254 00:16:07,733 --> 00:16:10,333 And maybe I'll wear it, maybe I won't. 255 00:16:10,333 --> 00:16:12,666 And I think thats when you sort of end up with, 256 00:16:12,666 --> 00:16:16,066 you know, dozens of things that you're seeing in your closet, 257 00:16:16,066 --> 00:16:17,833 you know, afte six months and being like, well 258 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:19,800 maybe I never wore it. 259 00:16:20,233 --> 00:16:22,800 Maybe I only wore it once, an now I'm going to get rid of it. 260 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,566 And so I think, you know, when, when, 261 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000 when I've talked to people about this, 262 00:16:30,833 --> 00:16:31,533 one of the— 263 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,666 the biggest pieces of advice is that, 264 00:16:33,666 --> 00:16:35,366 you know, when were thinking about sustainability, 265 00:16:35,366 --> 00:16:38,366 there is always 266 00:16:39,433 --> 00:16:43,500 sort of the messaging that, well, to be sustainable, 267 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:46,566 you know, we have to consum less, which is absolutely true. 268 00:16:46,566 --> 00:16:47,533 But when it comes to something 269 00:16:47,733 --> 00:16:50,600 like clothing you know, people are never going 270 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,100 to really be able to stop buying clothing. 271 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:54,333 Right? 272 00:16:54,666 --> 00:16:55,933 And so it just— 273 00:16:55,933 --> 00:16:59,400 because we know that, then it becomes sort of a 274 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,300 more conscious approach to doing that. 275 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:05,233 And as I mentioned, right, it really starts 276 00:17:05,233 --> 00:17:08,233 with buying less and buying better. 277 00:17:08,666 --> 00:17:11,666 And, you know, 278 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,900 because the fashion landscap is so complicated when it comes 279 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:20,100 to accessibility to brands that might be, 280 00:17:20,633 --> 00:17:21,933 you know, 281 00:17:21,933 --> 00:17:23,833 doing things that are considered more sustainable, 282 00:17:23,833 --> 00:17:27,233 whether that's for the environment or for workers, 283 00:17:28,266 --> 00:17:30,633 sometime that can come at a price premium 284 00:17:30,633 --> 00:17:33,766 and as we've seen, through our research, 285 00:17:33,766 --> 00:17:36,233 as much as people want to be sustainable, 286 00:17:36,233 --> 00:17:39,633 cost is still a really, really major factor 287 00:17:39,633 --> 00:17:41,566 in a lot of people's decision making. 288 00:17:41,566 --> 00:17:44,533 It's not always about, the brand 289 00:17:44,533 --> 00:17:47,600 that you buy from to be sustainable. 290 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:48,000 Right? 291 00:17:48,633 --> 00:17:53,366 So, you know, I have a t shirt from a fast 292 00:17:53,366 --> 00:17:56,366 fashion brand that I have had since 293 00:17:56,366 --> 00:17:59,333 my freshman year of college, and I've— 294 00:17:59,333 --> 00:18:01,800 I continue to wear it. Its still, 295 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,766 you know, i my regular rotation of clothing. 296 00:18:06,133 --> 00:18:07,900 And so just because it's a fast fashion 297 00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:11,800 item doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, it 298 00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:15,033 is, you know, sort of a huge part of the problem, right? 299 00:18:15,033 --> 00:18:16,933 It's like how you take care of it. 300 00:18:16,933 --> 00:18:19,600 There, you know, there was a small hole 301 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,300 that appeared in it like several years ago. 302 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:22,333 And I just sort of, 303 00:18:22,333 --> 00:18:23,766 you know, mended it. 304 00:18:23,766 --> 00:18:25,200 Going from there and then thinking about, 305 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,233 well, what is sort of accessible to you. And, 306 00:18:29,533 --> 00:18:31,500 you know, not, I think, being 307 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:35,133 so hard on yourself a a consumer that when sometimes 308 00:18:35,533 --> 00:18:38,866 what is accessible t you might be a, quote unquote, 309 00:18:38,866 --> 00:18:42,533 fast fashion ite but it doesn't have to be fast 310 00:18:42,533 --> 00:18:43,933 fashion in use 311 00:18:43,933 --> 00:18:46,266 if you take really good care of it and, 312 00:18:46,266 --> 00:18:49,000 you know, really extend the lifespan of that product 313 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,633 as long as you can. Well, what about new regulations? 314 00:18:54,666 --> 00:18:58,333 You know, saying that even fast fashion 315 00:18:58,333 --> 00:19:02,166 is covered by these regulations and maybe 316 00:19:02,166 --> 00:19:05,233 setting up special regulations for fast fashion, 317 00:19:05,666 --> 00:19:10,300 saying things like, because it's going to last 318 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,533 not as long as a fine suit or an expensive 319 00:19:15,533 --> 00:19:18,133 something you bought from a fancy shop. 320 00:19:18,133 --> 00:19:21,566 Please understand it will be gone 321 00:19:21,566 --> 00:19:25,166 in X months, from when you purchased it. 322 00:19:25,166 --> 00:19:27,066 And buy carefully. 323 00:19:27,066 --> 00:19:28,366 How about something like that? 324 00:19:28,366 --> 00:19:34,533 Policy will be one lever in this space for sure. 325 00:19:34,533 --> 00:19:37,100 I think the challeng that we're seeing with that is 326 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:40,700 the policies are very piecemeal at this point. 327 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:44,366 And in some cases, you know, 328 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:46,966 the efforts have been delayed. 329 00:19:46,966 --> 00:19:50,666 You know, we're seeing I think McKinsey had a report 330 00:19:50,666 --> 00:19:53,000 recently on sort of the state of the fashion industry. 331 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,466 And they found that you know, two thirds of brands 332 00:19:56,466 --> 00:20:01,066 are behind on their 2030 decarbonization goals. 333 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:05,100 In sort of the absence of having really comprehensive policies 334 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:06,366 or regulations, 335 00:20:06,366 --> 00:20:11,333 you know, unfortunately, it does oftentimes 336 00:20:11,333 --> 00:20:14,400 tend to fall on the consumer to, 337 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,233 as Professor Carbone talked about, 338 00:20:19,566 --> 00:20:21,966 to educate themselves and to 339 00:20:21,966 --> 00:20:25,366 make changes on their end that can sort of help 340 00:20:25,366 --> 00:20:27,833 move things toward a more sustainable future. 341 00:20:27,833 --> 00:20:31,333 What if regulators in various countries, 342 00:20:31,333 --> 00:20:36,066 various parts of the globe, were to pressure or even pass laws 343 00:20:36,333 --> 00:20:39,266 forcing designers and producers of fast 344 00:20:39,266 --> 00:20:43,400 fashion to make their clothes more, 345 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,400 you know, long lasting? Would that— 346 00:20:47,266 --> 00:20:52,000 do you think that woul get people to buy more carefully 347 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,900 and not think to themselves, 348 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:56,900 oh, well, I'll wear this twice and throw it out? 349 00:20:57,433 --> 00:21:01,666 Or would it not influence purchasing patterns at all? 350 00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:05,600 I just, I think it's really complicated. 351 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,000 And when there's so much profit 352 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,000 involved— 353 00:21:12,266 --> 00:21:15,233 You know, the United States passed 354 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,166 legislation that 355 00:21:18,166 --> 00:21:21,333 we weren't going to import 356 00:21:21,333 --> 00:21:25,366 textiles from China because they had so many different 357 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,766 types of fibers in the that they couldn't be recycled. 358 00:21:30,366 --> 00:21:33,300 Well, China started sending them to, 359 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:37,100 I believe, Thailand and then to the US. 360 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:42,666 So it's just incredibly complicated how quickly 361 00:21:43,733 --> 00:21:46,500 people can circumvent 362 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:47,900 policy. 363 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:50,933 And along with that, 364 00:21:50,933 --> 00:21:54,066 there's greenwashing that 365 00:21:54,066 --> 00:21:59,200 right now there's not a lot of accountability for, 366 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,433 you know, if what people are saying 367 00:22:02,433 --> 00:22:05,500 is true is really true. 368 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:10,533 So that's another issue that even with strong policy, 369 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,266 that could be something really difficult to regulate. 370 00:22:15,266 --> 00:22:18,366 How would local authorities be able to enforce— 371 00:22:18,366 --> 00:22:22,333 let's say they find out that a brand new line of t shirts 372 00:22:22,333 --> 00:22:25,433 isnt—with normal wear and tear, 373 00:22:25,433 --> 00:22:27,233 it's going to last three months. 374 00:22:27,233 --> 00:22:30,733 Could they require producers to put that on the label? 375 00:22:30,933 --> 00:22:32,900 I don't think it would hurt. 376 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:36,466 I think that actually labeling was part 377 00:22:36,466 --> 00:22:39,733 of the French legislation. 378 00:22:40,866 --> 00:22:43,366 Do you know about that, Allyson? 379 00:22:43,366 --> 00:22:44,800 I'm not sure about that. 380 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,900 You're nodding. 381 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:46,366 Yeah. 382 00:22:47,066 --> 00:22:50,400 My understandin of the French legislation and, 383 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:53,766 you know, please like fact check me on this. 384 00:22:54,566 --> 00:22:56,966 But as you mentioned, I think it did have a lot 385 00:22:56,966 --> 00:23:00,966 to do with advertising and claims— 386 00:23:00,966 --> 00:23:04,766 kind of similar to you know, the way that our FTC 387 00:23:04,766 --> 00:23:07,833 here has really cracked down on greenwashing 388 00:23:08,233 --> 00:23:12,033 more broadly, you know, beyond just clothing. 389 00:23:12,033 --> 00:23:13,966 But I would have to 390 00:23:13,966 --> 00:23:17,533 read a little more closely on the French legislation. 391 00:23:18,633 --> 00:23:20,166 I do remember 392 00:23:20,166 --> 00:23:23,966 tha I believe the EU had their own 393 00:23:23,966 --> 00:23:28,233 sustainabilit policy package, at some point. 394 00:23:28,233 --> 00:23:29,733 But I believe that that was delayed. 395 00:23:29,733 --> 00:23:30,700 So I don't know if it's worth it 396 00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:33,366 for us to talk about that right now. 397 00:23:33,366 --> 00:23:38,033 But there was a intention 398 00:23:38,033 --> 00:23:40,333 of having brands, 399 00:23:40,333 --> 00:23:42,266 you know do some more sort of thorough, 400 00:23:42,266 --> 00:23:45,133 I believe, sustainability reporting. 401 00:23:45,133 --> 00:23:47,733 Again, in service of transparency 402 00:23:47,733 --> 00:23:49,733 and to combat greenwashing. 403 00:23:49,733 --> 00:23:52,233 But first of all, explain to the audience, 404 00:23:52,233 --> 00:23:55,200 if you don't mind, what exactly is greenwashing? 405 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,233 I have an idea. 406 00:23:56,233 --> 00:23:58,700 I've never seen a definition of it but— 407 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:01,966 that producers try to make it look 408 00:24:02,333 --> 00:24:05,233 more environmentally friendly than it actually is. 409 00:24:05,233 --> 00:24:08,500 But if you could expand on that a bit, that would be helpful. 410 00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:13,800 Greenwashing is basically a term used to describe 411 00:24:14,833 --> 00:24:16,333 efforts by 412 00:24:16,333 --> 00:24:21,100 companies to, you know, promote sustainability. 413 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:24,200 But oftentimes they are efforts that, 414 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,500 at least on the surface, see like they might be sustainable. 415 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:30,533 But when you really dig into it, you realize that 416 00:24:31,166 --> 00:24:35,900 it is either, you know, not as rosy 417 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:39,233 as it's being presented or in 418 00:24:39,233 --> 00:24:42,000 some more severe cases, you know, 419 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,433 even more duplicitous than that and could be covering up, 420 00:24:45,866 --> 00:24:48,566 you know, very unsustainable practices, 421 00:24:48,566 --> 00:24:49,400 actually. 422 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:52,866 It's really important to dive into those claims, really see 423 00:24:53,266 --> 00:24:56,366 if brands are following through on the promises 424 00:24:56,366 --> 00:24:57,333 that they're making 425 00:24:57,633 --> 00:25:00,300 and to a lot of brands credit, you know, they have 426 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,166 upped their transparency quite a bit. 427 00:25:02,166 --> 00:25:05,733 So, major fashion houses are now putting out, 428 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,166 you know, sustainability reports. 429 00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:12,133 They're using third party certifications 430 00:25:12,133 --> 00:25:13,100 on their products. 431 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:14,900 They're working with third parties 432 00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,666 to assess their sustainability and putting all that data 433 00:25:17,666 --> 00:25:19,733 out there for the consumer. 434 00:25:19,733 --> 00:25:23,666 What can producers do to warn purchasers, 435 00:25:24,533 --> 00:25:28,866 look, that this product is everything we said it is. 436 00:25:29,166 --> 00:25:32,766 It is—we're not greenwashing you. Were telling you the truth, 437 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:34,666 here are some sites, 438 00:25:34,666 --> 00:25:36,833 and if you want more information, please 439 00:25:36,833 --> 00:25:40,233 follow those links and and read it for yourself. 440 00:25:40,233 --> 00:25:40,633 What— 441 00:25:41,566 --> 00:25:43,700 What's keeping producer from doing something like that? 442 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,400 The sustainability experts that I've spoken to would say that 443 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,466 it's 444 00:25:48,866 --> 00:25:51,933 because they don't have the dat and they don't have the actions 445 00:25:51,933 --> 00:25:53,200 to back up those claims, right. 446 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,966 And so they won't be as transparent, 447 00:25:56,966 --> 00:26:01,000 if they're not actuall following through on the claims 448 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:01,633 that they're making. 449 00:26:02,366 --> 00:26:04,966 And so that's why you really do want to look for companies 450 00:26:05,266 --> 00:26:08,733 that are putting everything ou there for the consumer to see, 451 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,800 That can oftentimes be a pretty clear signal that 452 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,033 they are, 453 00:26:17,033 --> 00:26:20,033 you know, actively trying to address sustainability. 454 00:26:20,466 --> 00:26:24,066 And you can see it for yourself, basically. And I think 455 00:26:24,066 --> 00:26:27,066 for—going back to the consumer, 456 00:26:27,366 --> 00:26:30,133 I think it can be overwhelming 457 00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:35,566 because most consumers want to do the right thing. 458 00:26:36,066 --> 00:26:40,400 And yet there's conflicting information online. 459 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,566 And if consumers are looking for 460 00:26:43,566 --> 00:26:46,766 information, check more than one spot. 461 00:26:46,766 --> 00:26:51,366 Look for confirming information in another spot. 462 00:26:51,366 --> 00:26:55,666 It does take a little time, but it can really give you 463 00:26:55,666 --> 00:27:00,266 the peace of mind that you know you're working towards 464 00:27:00,266 --> 00:27:05,133 sustainability in whatever way you can. 465 00:27:05,366 --> 00:27:07,800 And that's important. 466 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,266 You know, like you said, more has to happen. 467 00:27:11,266 --> 00:27:14,400 The producers have to get involved. 468 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,466 But you have to start somewhere. 469 00:27:17,466 --> 00:27:17,800 All right. 470 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,300 Well, thank you 471 00:27:19,266 --> 00:27:21,500 both for your enlightening contributions to this topic. 472 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,266 And thank you for covering it. 473 00:27:23,266 --> 00:27:24,766 Thank you for being aware of it. 474 00:27:24,766 --> 00:27:27,066 And thank you for spreading the word. 475 00:27:27,066 --> 00:27:27,566 That's it 476 00:27:28,066 --> 00:27:29,300 for this edition of To The Contrary. 477 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:32,266 Let's keep talking on social media including X, 478 00:27:32,633 --> 00:27:35,600 Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. 479 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,166 Reach out to us @tothecontrary 480 00:27:38,166 --> 00:27:40,000 and visit our website, 481 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,733 the address on the screen 482 00:27:41,733 --> 00:27:44,500 and whether you agree or think to the contrary, 483 00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:45,500 see you next time. 484 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,666 Funding for To The Contrary provided by: 485 00:28:22,666 --> 00:28:24,233 You're watching PBS.