1 00:01:40,133 --> 00:01:41,933 Funding for “To the Contrary,” 2 00:01:41,933 --> 00:01:45,666 provided by: 3 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:52,400 This week, 4 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,866 on “To the Contrary,” 5 00:01:53,866 --> 00:01:57,533 a new behind the scenes peek at the history of second- 6 00:01:57,533 --> 00:02:00,600 wave feminism. 7 00:02:19,466 --> 00:02:21,066 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé. 8 00:02:21,066 --> 00:02:24,633 Welcome to “To the Contrary,” a weekly discussion of news 9 00:02:24,633 --> 00:02:27,633 and social trends from diverse perspectives. 10 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,733 Muriel Fox is one of the first women 11 00:02:30,733 --> 00:02:34,500 over the fence at the launch of second-wave feminism. 12 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,566 Her new book, “The Women's Revolution: 13 00:02:37,566 --> 00:02:40,766 What We Did for You,” is especially appealing, 14 00:02:40,966 --> 00:02:44,266 as the subtitle seems to beckon young, progressive 15 00:02:44,266 --> 00:02:45,633 women and men. 16 00:02:45,633 --> 00:02:48,433 While some may not believe things are great now, it's 17 00:02:48,433 --> 00:02:51,566 an exercise in the importance of studying history 18 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,433 to gain an understanding of where women would be. 19 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:58,733 But for the work of Fox's generation, 20 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:02,433 Muriel Fox was the preeminent communications expert 21 00:03:02,833 --> 00:03:06,666 at that time, promoting women's rights to the growing media. 22 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:10,500 She was the strategic partner of National Organization 23 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:11,300 for Women, 24 00:03:11,666 --> 00:03:16,400 co-founder Betty Friedan and a co-founder of NOW herself. 25 00:03:16,733 --> 00:03:18,933 She joined the movement when, yes, 26 00:03:18,933 --> 00:03:21,800 women had the 19th amendment and the right to vote 27 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,833 on a national scale, but few other rights. 28 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,200 There weren't many laws protecting against sexism 29 00:03:29,566 --> 00:03:32,900 in hiring and pay, against sexual assault, 30 00:03:32,900 --> 00:03:35,800 against being fired for getting pregnant. 31 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,000 Few elementary 32 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,533 and high schools or colleges had women's sports programs, 33 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,200 and when they existed, they were woefully underfunded. 34 00:03:44,733 --> 00:03:47,533 Muriel Fox, welcome to the program. 35 00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:49,633 Thank you so much. 36 00:03:49,633 --> 00:03:52,633 So tell me first why you wrote the book. 37 00:03:52,633 --> 00:03:55,633 I wrote the book at the age of 94 38 00:03:55,633 --> 00:03:57,000 because I was angry. 39 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000 I was angry about losing abortion rights, 40 00:04:00,366 --> 00:04:03,900 and still not having the Equal Rights Amendment. 41 00:04:04,366 --> 00:04:07,633 And I was angry because so many educated young 42 00:04:07,633 --> 00:04:10,633 women said they never heard of Betty Friedan. 43 00:04:10,866 --> 00:04:12,700 They never heard of NOW. 44 00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:14,433 And we changed their lives. 45 00:04:14,433 --> 00:04:17,433 They actually, the subhead from my book is 46 00:04:17,866 --> 00:04:22,100 “The Women's Revolution and How We Changed Your Life.” 47 00:04:22,466 --> 00:04:27,133 And we changed the lives of everyone, everywhere, forever. 48 00:04:27,133 --> 00:04:27,600 All right. 49 00:04:28,033 --> 00:04:30,200 And, tell me about how did that start? 50 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,666 In somebody's living room, 51 00:04:31,666 --> 00:04:35,166 in a coffee shop on the Upper West Side of Manhattan? 52 00:04:35,166 --> 00:04:36,266 And how did that work? 53 00:04:36,266 --> 00:04:40,633 Well, if you're talking about NOW just rows everywhere. 54 00:04:40,633 --> 00:04:44,233 We were all so tired of hearing we don't hire women. 55 00:04:44,433 --> 00:04:48,033 We don't admit women to this place or this labor 56 00:04:48,033 --> 00:04:53,066 union or this restaurant or this job or this. 57 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,200 And we knew there had to be a change. 58 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,200 We were all involved in the civil rights movement, 59 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,766 and we really we wanted what people call the NAACP for women. 60 00:05:04,766 --> 00:05:07,833 Betty Friedan, who wrote “The Feminine Mystique 61 00:05:07,833 --> 00:05:08,966 which was a huge hit. 62 00:05:08,966 --> 00:05:12,300 It was all about suburban women, you know, who married, 63 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,500 financially, were able to not have to work or do work 64 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,500 that they wanted to try to do, but they were all bored. 65 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:22,366 And, was essentially what I took away 66 00:05:22,366 --> 00:05:23,933 from that book at the time. 67 00:05:23,933 --> 00:05:26,133 And they were bored because they were being limited 68 00:05:26,133 --> 00:05:28,033 in what they could do with their lives. 69 00:05:28,033 --> 00:05:33,300 Tell me about her, about Gloria Steinem, who is still with us. 70 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:34,966 But tell me also about the women 71 00:05:34,966 --> 00:05:36,800 who were part of that movement. 72 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,900 And forming NOW who aren't big names in it. 73 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,700 You know, as far as the women's history, the women's movement 74 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:46,000 history is concerned. 75 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,200 Betty Friedan wrote her book, as you say, for suburban, 76 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,966 well-educated women, but immediately resonated 77 00:05:54,966 --> 00:06:00,300 with all women of all classes and NOW was founded 78 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:04,266 for all women to fight discrimination in jobs. 79 00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:07,300 And most of our early lawsuits 80 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:10,900 were for women in factories who wanted a promotion, 81 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:14,000 who wanted to get into the seniority list for 82 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,133 the labor movement. 83 00:06:16,166 --> 00:06:17,500 And so 84 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:20,200 people who say, “Well, it was ju 85 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,166 middle class women,” it was it was all women resonate 86 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:29,100 to the need for ending the idea that you could 87 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:32,566 say, “We don't hire women, we don't promote women.” 88 00:06:32,766 --> 00:06:35,766 And who else was there among you who didn't get, 89 00:06:35,766 --> 00:06:40,000 who didn't make it into the current 90 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,300 generation's knowledge of women formed second-wave feminism. 91 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:48,533 My book salutes 30 women, 29 92 00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:52,266 women and one man, a man named Phineas Indritz, a lawyer 93 00:06:52,866 --> 00:06:56,300 and every one of them deserves to be in our history books 94 00:06:56,766 --> 00:06:59,333 as much as Patrick Henry or John 95 00:06:59,333 --> 00:07:02,700 Paul Jones or any other hero. 96 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:05,700 Every one of them changed our lives 97 00:07:05,966 --> 00:07:08,600 and they worked on the issues that were important. 98 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,566 And certainly Pauli Murray, a great educator, 99 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,033 lawyer, later became a, you know, an Episcopalian priest 100 00:07:18,566 --> 00:07:21,100 and one of our leaders. 101 00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:24,533 And every one of them understood that we were going 102 00:07:24,533 --> 00:07:26,033 to change the world. 103 00:07:26,033 --> 00:07:28,333 We didn't think it would happen so fast. 104 00:07:28,333 --> 00:07:29,466 And it happened so fast 105 00:07:29,466 --> 00:07:33,100 because as women said, it was long overdue. 106 00:07:33,333 --> 00:07:35,666 It was thousands of years overdue. 107 00:07:36,766 --> 00:07:38,833 And that this time, 108 00:07:38,833 --> 00:07:41,466 for instance, as we say in the statement of purpose 109 00:07:41,466 --> 00:07:43,766 with Betty Friedan wrote 110 00:07:43,766 --> 00:07:47,000 only 1% of our federal judges were women. 111 00:07:47,366 --> 00:07:51,100 Only 4% of our lawyers were women. 112 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:54,300 Only 7% of our doctors were women. 113 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,966 We had to overcome that. 114 00:07:55,966 --> 00:07:58,333 This was taken for granted. 115 00:07:58,333 --> 00:08:01,200 And medical schools and law schools 116 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,200 and business schools says we don't admit women. 117 00:08:04,666 --> 00:08:06,200 And they just took this for granted. 118 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,700 That's the way it had always been, but we change that. 119 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,333 We changed the laws. 120 00:08:11,333 --> 00:08:13,933 We made the government enforce the laws. 121 00:08:13,933 --> 00:08:17,800 We had the Civil Rights Act of 1964, 122 00:08:18,266 --> 00:08:21,366 and there was something called Title VII, 123 00:08:21,366 --> 00:08:23,933 which said you may not discriminate, but 124 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:26,933 it didn't say anything about sex discrimination. 125 00:08:27,233 --> 00:08:30,600 And we got sex discrimination put into Title VII. 126 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,133 And The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, 127 00:08:34,133 --> 00:08:36,700 and all the experts said, “Oh, we can't do that. 128 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:39,000 It's trivial.” 129 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,266 Well, it wasn't trivial. 130 00:08:40,266 --> 00:08:45,533 Most of the cases that came up were not only for minorities, 131 00:08:45,533 --> 00:08:48,433 they were for women who had been discriminated against. 132 00:08:48,433 --> 00:08:51,633 And we realized that this is a need for the public. 133 00:08:51,866 --> 00:08:52,266 All right. 134 00:08:52,766 --> 00:08:55,266 So okay, tell me for, let's start with 135 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:59,100 property laws, where were women? 136 00:08:59,733 --> 00:09:03,733 In the time period when NOW was new and young 137 00:09:03,733 --> 00:09:06,966 and starting out, what property rights did women have? 138 00:09:06,966 --> 00:09:10,500 Because as we know, is still true in some countries, 139 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,266 mainly developing nations, women don't even have 140 00:09:14,266 --> 00:09:15,466 the right to own property, 141 00:09:15,466 --> 00:09:18,133 anything they own at the time they get married 142 00:09:18,133 --> 00:09:21,833 goes from being, you know, or may have owned it as 143 00:09:21,833 --> 00:09:25,366 an adult, goes from their father to their husband. 144 00:09:25,366 --> 00:09:26,200 You're right. 145 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,833 Well, women couldn't get mortgages, 146 00:09:28,833 --> 00:09:31,000 and their salary wasn't counted. 147 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,366 If a husband and wife applied for a mortgage, 148 00:09:33,366 --> 00:09:35,666 the woman's salary wasn't counted. 149 00:09:35,666 --> 00:09:38,666 Women couldn't get a credit card. And, 150 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:42,100 it only had to be in her husband's name. 151 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:44,500 A single woman couldn't get a credit card. 152 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:47,266 And if your husband died or you had a divorce, 153 00:09:47,266 --> 00:09:49,633 you lost your credit card. 154 00:09:49,633 --> 00:09:52,600 And, we had to change all this 155 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,566 so that women could have property rights. 156 00:09:55,566 --> 00:09:59,066 And incidentally, in some states like Louisiana, 157 00:09:59,433 --> 00:10:03,000 there was the headed master law, where the woman's earnings 158 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,100 didn't care the law. 159 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:07,366 The man was the head of master, and he had the rights 160 00:10:07,766 --> 00:10:08,900 to their property, 161 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:11,933 even if she was the one who was earning the money. 162 00:10:11,933 --> 00:10:15,966 Who were the primary movers and strategizers 163 00:10:16,633 --> 00:10:19,166 on how to do that in the financial arena? 164 00:10:19,166 --> 00:10:22,166 Certainly, Betty Friedan, she was our leader 165 00:10:22,666 --> 00:10:25,266 for the first four years of NOW 166 00:10:25,266 --> 00:10:28,733 Betty Friedan really gave us a strategy. 167 00:10:28,933 --> 00:10:31,333 She gave us our name NOW, 168 00:10:31,333 --> 00:10:34,100 and she gave us this wonderful statement 169 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:36,300 of purpose and really our energy. 170 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:38,666 She was very hard to get along with, 171 00:10:38,666 --> 00:10:41,166 but she was a great woman. 172 00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:43,300 And then, as I said, Pauli Murray. 173 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:45,000 And there are names that you've never heard. 174 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,500 The people have never heard of 175 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:49,233 that they must hear of. Mary Eastwood, 176 00:10:49,233 --> 00:10:52,566 Catherine East, Marguerite Rawalt. 177 00:10:52,566 --> 00:10:55,566 These are all the 30 people in my book. 178 00:10:55,766 --> 00:10:58,633 And I tried to cut it back, like I thought “Oh, well thats too many,” 179 00:10:58,633 --> 00:11:03,166 but every one of them made such a difference in people's lives. 180 00:11:03,633 --> 00:11:06,433 And, I hope people will recognize this and 181 00:11:06,433 --> 00:11:09,866 I hope history will begin to salute these people 182 00:11:09,866 --> 00:11:11,166 because they deserve it. 183 00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:11,466 All right. 184 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,333 Tell us about some more. Pauli Murray, 185 00:11:14,333 --> 00:11:15,466 what happened to her? 186 00:11:15,466 --> 00:11:18,633 You say she was a great legal strategist. 187 00:11:18,633 --> 00:11:21,166 Pauli Murray was a great woman. 188 00:11:21,166 --> 00:11:23,233 And she actually 189 00:11:24,366 --> 00:11:25,733 had some of the 190 00:11:25,733 --> 00:11:29,500 ideas that went into Brown vs. Board of Education 191 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:33,566 and other Pauli Murray ideas, separate but equal. 192 00:11:33,966 --> 00:11:35,600 Those were her ideas. 193 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,800 So, she was very active in our movement. 194 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,166 And then she went on, as I said, to become an Episcopal priest. 195 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,633 Now, you mentioned Gloria Steinem. 196 00:11:45,633 --> 00:11:48,633 Gloria came a little later, 197 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,466 but when she, she would, in 1969, 198 00:11:52,733 --> 00:11:56,233 I led a protest at the Plaza Hotel, Oak Room, 199 00:11:56,233 --> 00:11:59,133 because they didnt admit women for lunch. 200 00:11:59,133 --> 00:12:01,833 And Gloria Steinem was one of the reporters there. 201 00:12:01,833 --> 00:12:04,800 I remember she came up to me because we were picketing. 202 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,933 And at that time Gloria said, “Well, I'm not a feminist. 203 00:12:07,933 --> 00:12:09,400 I'm a humanist.” 204 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,033 But soon after she decided, yes, she was a feminist 205 00:12:13,533 --> 00:12:16,433 and she's still active today. 206 00:12:16,433 --> 00:12:19,166 Bella Abzug came along a little later 207 00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:22,433 again, Bella Abzug, when she was elected to Congress. 208 00:12:22,633 --> 00:12:25,700 Again, I'd say thanks to the women's movement, 209 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:29,600 she introduced and helped to pass the Fair Credit Act, 210 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,666 which meant women could have credit cards 211 00:12:32,666 --> 00:12:35,933 and could be considered for credit. 212 00:12:35,933 --> 00:12:40,566 And incidentally, the the want ads were still saying 213 00:12:40,566 --> 00:12:43,200 help wanted male, help wanted female 214 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,600 and all the good jobs were listed, 215 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,533 needless to say, under help wanted male 216 00:12:48,533 --> 00:12:52,366 and we had to make the the government enforce 217 00:12:52,733 --> 00:12:55,633 Title VII to show that you're not allowed to do that. 218 00:12:55,633 --> 00:12:57,766 That was sex discrimination. 219 00:12:57,766 --> 00:13:01,800 So, Gloria Steinem came a little bit later. 220 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,333 But has lasted a lot longer. 221 00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:07,333 Does she do, you think, at least in terms of 222 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,566 being one of the mothers of second-wave feminism, 223 00:13:11,566 --> 00:13:13,233 does she get too much credit? 224 00:13:13,233 --> 00:13:14,500 No, no, no. 225 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:18,133 She deserves every bit of credit she receives. 226 00:13:18,133 --> 00:13:21,566 Gloria has been a champion for us all these years, 227 00:13:21,566 --> 00:13:22,666 and she's still, 228 00:13:22,666 --> 00:13:26,466 at the age of 90, still fighting for women's rights. 229 00:13:26,666 --> 00:13:27,833 It took all of us. 230 00:13:27,833 --> 00:13:31,400 It took these leaders, the 30 leaders, certainly, 231 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,666 which included Pauli Murray and Gloria Steinem. 232 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,900 But it also included, 233 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:41,066 really tens of thousands of women 234 00:13:41,066 --> 00:13:44,833 and men who were angry about some injustice. 235 00:13:45,066 --> 00:13:49,233 And each person worked on what made them mad 236 00:13:49,633 --> 00:13:51,933 in their labor union, in their school, 237 00:13:51,933 --> 00:13:56,700 and in their city, in their university, 238 00:13:57,266 --> 00:13:58,433 in their company. 239 00:13:58,433 --> 00:14:01,033 Wherever there was an injustice, they worked. 240 00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:05,166 And I wrote my book because I really want 241 00:14:05,166 --> 00:14:09,300 especially those 30 people, certainly including 242 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,666 Betty Friedan, to be recognized by history 243 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,833 so people will know what we did for them, 244 00:14:15,833 --> 00:14:18,833 but also what they could do for the future. 245 00:14:19,033 --> 00:14:23,000 You mentioned the cross pollination I think between 246 00:14:23,266 --> 00:14:27,300 or how I would put it between, feminism and civil rights. 247 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:30,633 You mentioned the Civil Rights Act of 1965. 248 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:34,700 How much was second- 249 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,700 wave feminism built 250 00:14:38,233 --> 00:14:41,466 on the civil rights movement, which pertained largely at 251 00:14:41,466 --> 00:14:46,533 the time to African Americans, and equal rights for them. 252 00:14:46,533 --> 00:14:50,500 They too, have been, you know, hugely denied 253 00:14:50,733 --> 00:14:51,800 all kinds of rights 254 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,566 that should have been theirs from the beginning. 255 00:14:54,566 --> 00:14:57,333 And, how much, 256 00:14:57,333 --> 00:14:59,866 if any, did the civil 257 00:14:59,866 --> 00:15:03,233 rights movement learn from the women's movement 258 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:07,033 in putting together its strategy and policy change agenda? 259 00:15:07,633 --> 00:15:08,966 First of all, 260 00:15:08,966 --> 00:15:12,133 our movement is part of the civil rights movement. 261 00:15:12,433 --> 00:15:16,666 As we say in the statement, the purpose of NOW, 262 00:15:17,033 --> 00:15:19,666 actually the paragraph the Pauli Murray 263 00:15:19,666 --> 00:15:20,033 wrote. 264 00:15:20,533 --> 00:15:23,300 Civil rights for all are indivisible. 265 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,666 And so we were all working for the same rights. 266 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,600 And I remember when we met in the White House 267 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,100 with Lyndon Johnson's deputy, John Macy, and he said, “Well, 268 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:39,033 don't you women want separate rules and separate laws?” 269 00:15:39,033 --> 00:15:42,900 I said, “No, were part of the civil rights movement. 270 00:15:43,133 --> 00:15:44,766 We want the same laws. 271 00:15:44,766 --> 00:15:47,033 We want to be included in those laws, 272 00:15:47,033 --> 00:15:49,833 and we want the laws to be enforced 273 00:15:49,833 --> 00:15:51,900 against sex discrimination.” 274 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:55,900 But then why want a separate Equal Rights Amendment in the U.S. 275 00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:59,166 Constitution, which consists of just a couple of words 276 00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:02,900 I know, but still referred to as the Equal Rights Amendment. 277 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:03,166 Right. 278 00:16:03,766 --> 00:16:05,966 Because that's something we don't have. 279 00:16:05,966 --> 00:16:09,500 We have the 13th and 14th amendment, 280 00:16:10,366 --> 00:16:13,933 which gave people of color their rights. 281 00:16:14,366 --> 00:16:18,133 But, we're one of the few countries that doesn't recognize 282 00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:21,566 that women and men should not be discriminated against. 283 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:25,333 The ERA, as we call, 284 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,866 you know, says equality of rights under the law 285 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:33,233 shall not be denied or abridged 286 00:16:33,233 --> 00:16:37,566 by the United States or any state on account of sex. 287 00:16:37,566 --> 00:16:39,500 That's all it says. 288 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:41,966 And, it's no special privilege. 289 00:16:41,966 --> 00:16:44,633 It just means don't abridge our rights 290 00:16:44,633 --> 00:16:49,433 and it's time that women were in our Constitution, 291 00:16:49,433 --> 00:16:53,300 were in the most Constitutions of most developed countries. 292 00:16:53,833 --> 00:16:56,566 And the New York state is going to have 293 00:16:56,566 --> 00:17:00,966 a New York State ERA up on their election this November. 294 00:17:01,166 --> 00:17:05,100 Now, there was the famous quote from Stokely 295 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:07,700 Carmichael, one of the leaders of NAACP. 296 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:09,800 SNCC, I forget which group. 297 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,033 I apologize, 298 00:17:11,033 --> 00:17:14,533 but when asked what the position of women 299 00:17:14,533 --> 00:17:15,700 was in the movement, 300 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:17,133 he said the position of women 301 00:17:17,133 --> 00:17:21,333 should be prone, which was a pretty huge insult 302 00:17:21,666 --> 00:17:25,433 to forward thinking women and the men who supported them. 303 00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:28,400 So were, tell me 304 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,466 about the inside, behind the curtain. 305 00:17:31,466 --> 00:17:35,533 What were relations like between the two parts of the 306 00:17:35,533 --> 00:17:36,500 of this movement? 307 00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:39,633 Stokely Carmichael was just being smart. But, 308 00:17:40,633 --> 00:17:42,733 most of us 309 00:17:42,733 --> 00:17:47,433 realize that our civil rights were indivisible, 310 00:17:47,433 --> 00:17:50,433 but women did have to fight for Black civil rights 311 00:17:50,433 --> 00:17:53,366 movement, didn't have women leaders, 312 00:17:53,366 --> 00:17:56,333 and there were people who made comments like that. 313 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,366 And that was another reason that we needed 314 00:17:59,366 --> 00:18:02,600 the National Organization for Women. 315 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,533 And incidentally, it's for women, not of women, 316 00:18:05,533 --> 00:18:09,133 because we had a lot of men, wonderful men in the movement, 317 00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:11,800 and they understood that our movement 318 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,966 is working for our sons as well as our daughters. 319 00:18:14,966 --> 00:18:16,900 Men, men realize 320 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:17,533 that they've 321 00:18:18,133 --> 00:18:21,433 been discriminated against in being expected in the old days 322 00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:24,333 to be the sole supporter of the family. 323 00:18:24,333 --> 00:18:25,966 That's a burden. 324 00:18:25,966 --> 00:18:30,166 And now, with women sharing the burden as partners, 325 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,066 it liberates everybody. 326 00:18:32,066 --> 00:18:34,866 It liberates our sons as well as our daughters. 327 00:18:34,866 --> 00:18:37,600 Are you at all disappointed by what you say? 328 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,600 Women and men, not all men share the burden. 329 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,800 Not all women, quite frankly, want to share 330 00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:48,200 the burden has been my unfortunate experience 331 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:51,366 becoming an adult in this society. 332 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,433 Has that held women back? 333 00:18:54,433 --> 00:18:55,466 Because women, 334 00:18:55,466 --> 00:18:58,266 today's women certainly don't feel like they are 335 00:18:58,266 --> 00:19:03,533 where they need or want to be in terms of equality in society. 336 00:19:03,533 --> 00:19:05,133 Well, you're right. 337 00:19:05,133 --> 00:19:08,633 I mean, we have not reached equal partnership, but 338 00:19:08,633 --> 00:19:13,100 we're getting better and better and it's better for everyone. 339 00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:17,066 Gloria Steinem has said it took us 50 years 340 00:19:17,433 --> 00:19:20,566 to prove that women can do what men do. 341 00:19:20,566 --> 00:19:23,766 Now we have to prove that men can do what women 342 00:19:23,766 --> 00:19:26,766 do, and that means childcare. 343 00:19:26,766 --> 00:19:30,300 It means sharing the housework because the women 344 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:32,200 are out in the workforce. 345 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,933 And it's certainly, good for the men too 346 00:19:34,933 --> 00:19:37,933 that the women are sharing the economic burden. 347 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,600 And it's not just about, 348 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:40,800 there are women 349 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,566 who work in the home who get great satisfaction from it. 350 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,600 And NOW has always said these women deserve 351 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,366 to be recognized and paid, given financial security, 352 00:19:53,866 --> 00:19:56,466 security in case of divorce 353 00:19:56,466 --> 00:19:59,533 and given respect. Thats an option. 354 00:19:59,933 --> 00:20:03,400 But you look at most of the statistics, most women, 355 00:20:04,266 --> 00:20:08,600 even those of childbearing age, are in the workforce. 356 00:20:08,966 --> 00:20:11,800 And I think it's not only for the money, 357 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,300 it's for the satisfaction of 358 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:17,566 doing a job, doing what they like to do, doing what 359 00:20:17,566 --> 00:20:22,333 they're capable of doing, doing what they're educated to do. 360 00:20:22,333 --> 00:20:24,000 So it's a whole new world, 361 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,700 and I think everybody benefits from it. 362 00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:31,233 I believe that the women's revolution started 363 00:20:31,466 --> 00:20:36,966 with the founding of NOW, on October 29, 1966. 364 00:20:37,466 --> 00:20:39,166 And that's when we started 365 00:20:39,166 --> 00:20:42,800 questioning all the laws, getting the laws changed, 366 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,033 talking about consciousness raising. 367 00:20:46,033 --> 00:20:49,666 So especially women and small groups 368 00:20:49,933 --> 00:20:53,200 would share their experiences and understand 369 00:20:53,666 --> 00:20:58,200 how they had been suppressed and in many cases, oppressed. 370 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,666 Now, I used to do, there's a point in time in the ‘80s, 90 371 00:21:02,933 --> 00:21:05,466 where I used to go to a lot of college campuses 372 00:21:05,466 --> 00:21:08,933 and some corporate events and speak on women's issues 373 00:21:08,933 --> 00:21:12,100 and women's rights, and I had, and these were, 374 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:13,700 you know, I didn't set up the events. 375 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:16,300 They were mainly white events, 376 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,300 and but sometimes women of color would, 377 00:21:19,633 --> 00:21:22,300 would come up to me and say, “What about us? 378 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:23,833 We've been left out.” 379 00:21:23,833 --> 00:21:27,133 Was that something you encountered at the beginning 380 00:21:27,133 --> 00:21:31,300 of second-wave feminism and was there, 381 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,400 and now when you talk about women's rights, 382 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,566 it's almost like it's more important. 383 00:21:36,566 --> 00:21:41,100 Women of, the rights of women and persons of color, 384 00:21:42,466 --> 00:21:45,400 and LGBTQ than white women. 385 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,566 So this is a big change in the last 50 years. 386 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:52,933 Do you believe that 387 00:21:52,933 --> 00:21:57,400 NOW reached out enough to not just white women, 388 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:03,066 but other women and gay people and all the other people 389 00:22:03,066 --> 00:22:06,100 who were not included at the beginning of the movement? 390 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,000 Well, we evolved, 391 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,000 you know, we were a revolution. 392 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,466 We started talking about jobs and education for all women, 393 00:22:15,766 --> 00:22:19,033 white women, Black women, disabled women, 394 00:22:20,966 --> 00:22:22,133 And we learned 395 00:22:22,133 --> 00:22:26,000 more and more that people had additional needs. 396 00:22:26,866 --> 00:22:29,300 Women of color had additional needs 397 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:32,433 at first we didn't pay enough attention to, 398 00:22:32,433 --> 00:22:35,900 but we evolved, we learned, and we are working 399 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:39,833 for all women's needs, and they vary. 400 00:22:39,833 --> 00:22:42,733 They're not, all women are not the same. 401 00:22:42,733 --> 00:22:44,700 And, we learned it. 402 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:46,000 But on the other hand, 403 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,033 all women want to be treated equally and fairly. 404 00:22:50,366 --> 00:22:52,266 And that's the thing we were working for 405 00:22:52,266 --> 00:22:53,933 from the very beginning. 406 00:22:53,933 --> 00:22:56,600 And then we added things. We added the lesbians. 407 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,500 We had minority women's, LGBTQ certainly. 408 00:23:01,733 --> 00:23:03,766 And at the beginning we had big fights 409 00:23:03,766 --> 00:23:08,833 at NOW. Should we include lesbianism as a feminist issue? 410 00:23:09,066 --> 00:23:12,966 And it took us about four years before we worked through that. 411 00:23:12,966 --> 00:23:15,066 Tell me about those discussions. 412 00:23:15,066 --> 00:23:18,666 You know, what were the reasons not to, 413 00:23:18,666 --> 00:23:22,266 what were the reasons to, and who won out in the end? 414 00:23:22,266 --> 00:23:26,066 At first, some of us, including me, thought that 415 00:23:26,066 --> 00:23:27,400 it was a separate issue. 416 00:23:28,366 --> 00:23:30,900 Gender, gender identity, etc. 417 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:32,666 was a separate issue. 418 00:23:32,666 --> 00:23:37,966 And there were a group of very wise lesbians within NOW 419 00:23:38,566 --> 00:23:42,400 who published position papers and told us 420 00:23:42,733 --> 00:23:44,633 it is a feminist issue 421 00:23:44,633 --> 00:23:47,766 because it's part of how women are perceived. 422 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:51,100 It's part of how women are stereotyped. 423 00:23:51,333 --> 00:23:54,733 And, so we discussed this and we learned 424 00:23:55,166 --> 00:23:58,166 and by 1971 September, 425 00:23:58,766 --> 00:24:01,766 actually at the conference where I was elected NOWs 426 00:24:01,766 --> 00:24:06,633 national board chair, NOW voted for the first time 427 00:24:07,266 --> 00:24:10,533 lesbianism is a feminist issue. 428 00:24:10,933 --> 00:24:13,700 And I'm not pretending we didn't have a lot 429 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:17,400 of discussions and battles about that until then. 430 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,466 But there was never a lesbian purge, 431 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:23,533 as some historians have claimed. 432 00:24:23,533 --> 00:24:26,600 It was just really discussions 433 00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:30,000 and differences and arguments. 434 00:24:30,833 --> 00:24:32,700 And we evolved 435 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:35,100 and we learned that we all have to work together. 436 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:38,900 I'm not aware of the claimed lesbian purge. 437 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:39,900 What was that about? 438 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,666 And, where did it come from since it didn't. 439 00:24:46,166 --> 00:24:49,433 It really just came from some things that happened 440 00:24:49,433 --> 00:24:51,266 that were not lesbian purges. 441 00:24:51,266 --> 00:24:53,366 I mean, to go into, 442 00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:56,766 one of them was that Betty Friedan, our great leader, 443 00:24:57,333 --> 00:24:59,633 wasn't that easy to get along with. 444 00:24:59,633 --> 00:25:04,166 And she wanted us to fire our executive director at one point 445 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,500 who she felt was not subservient to her enough. 446 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,500 So it was really just personal. 447 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,100 This was Dolores Alexander, a wonderful woman. 448 00:25:14,466 --> 00:25:18,133 And actually, Dolores was not a lesbian at that time. 449 00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:19,900 She turned out 450 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:22,900 to just be a lesbian a couple of years later. 451 00:25:23,166 --> 00:25:24,333 But at that time, she wasn't. 452 00:25:24,333 --> 00:25:27,066 So it was not a lesbian purge. 453 00:25:27,066 --> 00:25:27,666 It was. 454 00:25:27,866 --> 00:25:30,200 It was just difference of opinion. 455 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,800 And we had our battles, 456 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,633 we had our discussions and our arguments 457 00:25:36,633 --> 00:25:39,633 and some lesbians left and thought we weren't 458 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,566 considering them enough. 459 00:25:41,566 --> 00:25:45,566 Rita Mae Brown, a very well-know author of Rubyfruit 460 00:25:45,566 --> 00:25:46,866 Jungle. 461 00:25:46,866 --> 00:25:51,000 She left in a huff and, you know, said 462 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,200 some angry things, but it wasn't a purge. 463 00:25:54,533 --> 00:25:56,833 It was her choice, actually. 464 00:25:56,833 --> 00:25:59,866 And most of us voted to stay in. 465 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:04,233 And ultimately, we voted that lesbianism was a feminist issue. 466 00:26:04,566 --> 00:26:08,100 And many of our most active members today 467 00:26:08,633 --> 00:26:11,466 are members of the LGBTQ community. 468 00:26:11,466 --> 00:26:14,400 Well, we're about out of time here, but I just want to ask you 469 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,233 anything that you raised in the book 470 00:26:16,233 --> 00:26:18,800 that I haven't asked you about and you'd like to bring up. 471 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,800 I just want to say, we did it. 472 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:25,800 And you young people can do it too. 473 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,533 We're counting on people to benefit by what we did. 474 00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:32,766 I think the stories will interest them. 475 00:26:32,766 --> 00:26:36,066 Some will still see how hard it was and the mistakes we made, 476 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,466 but I think they'll be inspired. 477 00:26:38,466 --> 00:26:41,466 I hope that's what people say about my book, 478 00:26:41,466 --> 00:26:42,566 that it's inspiring, 479 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,166 as well as 480 00:26:44,533 --> 00:26:47,166 entertaining and I hope they'll be inspired 481 00:26:47,366 --> 00:26:49,733 to do the work that still needs to be done, 482 00:26:49,733 --> 00:26:53,466 and certainly to get involved in politics. This year, 483 00:26:53,466 --> 00:26:55,766 it's all about politics. 484 00:26:55,766 --> 00:26:59,833 in 2024. We can get abortion rights back. 485 00:26:59,833 --> 00:27:02,733 We can get the ERA, we can get everything. 486 00:27:02,733 --> 00:27:06,566 If we get feminist leaders elected 487 00:27:06,566 --> 00:27:10,133 not just to the presidency, but to Congress, 488 00:27:10,133 --> 00:27:14,566 to legislatures, state and local, to school boards, 489 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,600 politics is absolutely the name of the game this year. 490 00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:21,966 Thank you so much, Muriel Fox, for joining us. 491 00:27:22,333 --> 00:27:26,333 Her book is available online and at most bookstores. 492 00:27:26,633 --> 00:27:28,066 That's it for this edition 493 00:27:28,066 --> 00:27:28,966 of “To the Contrary.” 494 00:27:29,233 --> 00:27:32,566 Continue the conversation on our social media platforms, 495 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,800 on X, on Facebook, @tothecountrary, 496 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,433 and on our PBS web page. 497 00:27:38,433 --> 00:27:40,333 The address is on the screen. 498 00:27:40,333 --> 00:27:41,600 Please join us next time 499 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,266 and whether you agree or think to the contrary, see you soon. 500 00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,866 Funding for “To the Contrary,” provided by: