WEBVTT 00:02.466 --> 00:04.433 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% - Welcome to University Place Presents. 00:04.433 --> 00:06.300 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% I'm Norman Gilliland. 00:06.300 --> 00:10.466 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% On the one hand, it has killed tens of thousands of people 00:10.466 --> 00:13.700 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% with painful death in wartime. 00:13.700 --> 00:15.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% On the other hand, it has enabled us 00:15.833 --> 00:18.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% to feed billions and billions of people. 00:18.566 --> 00:22.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% It's key in both the good and the bad. 00:22.166 --> 00:23.433 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% What is it? 00:23.433 --> 00:26.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% We're going to find out from my guest. 00:26.200 --> 00:29.766 align:left position:32.5% line:5% size:57.5% He is Dan Egan, the author of the book 00:29.766 --> 00:33.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% The Devil's Element: Phosphorus and a World Out of Balance. 00:33.866 --> 00:36.366 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% Welcome to University Place Presents. 00:36.366 --> 00:38.133 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Thank you for having me. 00:38.133 --> 00:40.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - You right away tell some stories in this book 00:40.966 --> 00:42.500 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% that are remarkable. 00:42.500 --> 00:46.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I mean, for somebody who's never been particularly afraid 00:46.000 --> 00:48.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of phosphorus before, [both chuckling] 00:48.433 --> 00:52.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I have to admit that now, I would steer clear of it, 00:52.166 --> 00:54.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% especially as you tell about it 00:54.500 --> 00:57.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% in a couple of your stories at the get-go. 00:57.133 --> 01:00.800 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% - Yeah, yeah, it's a bewitching element. 01:00.800 --> 01:02.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's the devil's element. 01:02.100 --> 01:05.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And they call it that because of how poisonous 01:05.233 --> 01:06.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and explosive it can be. 01:06.766 --> 01:09.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Also because it was the 13th element discovered. 01:09.833 --> 01:12.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% This was back in the 1600s. 01:12.366 --> 01:13.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But there's a real paradox there. 01:13.900 --> 01:18.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% It's essential to humanity and it's also very dangerous. 01:18.000 --> 01:20.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - So a really basic sense, in a really basic sense 01:20.600 --> 01:23.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it's key to our very existence. 01:23.866 --> 01:27.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - It is, it's in every living cell on the planet. 01:27.600 --> 01:29.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Maybe in the universe. 01:29.333 --> 01:31.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% There's no substitute for it. 01:31.033 --> 01:33.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Isaac Asimov said back in the early '70s, 01:33.533 --> 01:35.033 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% he called it "life's bottleneck." 01:35.033 --> 01:38.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so, yeah, we need the stuff desperately, 01:38.766 --> 01:41.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% but sometimes we mismanage it to ill effect. 01:41.800 --> 01:45.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - You begin with a story about a pursuit in Florida 01:45.866 --> 01:49.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% where a man is fleeing from the police. 01:49.666 --> 01:51.800 align:left position:42.5% line:71% size:47.5% - Yeah. - He jumps over a fence 01:51.800 --> 01:55.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and decides to escape by jumping into a canal. 01:55.066 --> 01:56.233 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And then what? 01:57.233 --> 01:58.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Then he almost meets his demise. 01:58.933 --> 02:02.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Yeah, he was pulled over for drugs in Cape Coral, Florida, 02:02.766 --> 02:04.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and he made a run for it. 02:04.166 --> 02:06.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And he ran into the backyards of some homes, 02:06.466 --> 02:10.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and there's canals in that city lacing the whole area 02:10.366 --> 02:12.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% like nautical alleys. 02:12.933 --> 02:15.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And he thought he could swim from the police, 02:15.366 --> 02:18.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and he jumped into this goop that was green as guacamole. 02:18.500 --> 02:21.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And he soon learned, very toxic. 02:21.266 --> 02:25.766 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% And yeah, he started retching, he started drowning. 02:25.766 --> 02:28.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And the police were in no hurry. 02:28.333 --> 02:29.500 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% They were concerned about him, 02:29.500 --> 02:31.366 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% but they knew what he had jumped into. 02:31.366 --> 02:34.400 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% And it was just this stew of toxic blue-green algae, 02:34.400 --> 02:36.366 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% which is very poisonous stuff. 02:36.366 --> 02:38.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so they just started coaxing and coaching him 02:38.533 --> 02:40.300 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% to get to the shore. 02:40.300 --> 02:41.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And they finally pulled him out, 02:41.600 --> 02:44.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and yeah, they washed him off with a hose 02:44.266 --> 02:45.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and took him off to the emergency room, 02:45.966 --> 02:48.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and later, I believe, charged him. 02:48.100 --> 02:50.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% But it was, yeah, I thought that was a good way 02:50.300 --> 02:53.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to open the book because it is a book about phosphorus, 02:53.033 --> 02:54.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and people are gonna wonder, 02:54.400 --> 02:57.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% "Well, what's a book about phosphorus gonna have for me?" 02:57.033 --> 02:58.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [Norman laughing] 02:58.200 --> 03:00.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And so I knew I had to come out hard, 03:00.200 --> 03:02.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% so I came out with this story about what happens 03:02.266 --> 03:05.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you accidentally find yourself in this stuff. 03:05.000 --> 03:07.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Well, we can imagine maybe that in Florida, 03:07.933 --> 03:10.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% parts of Florida, there would be a lot of canals 03:10.733 --> 03:12.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and a lot of canals with blue-green algae. 03:12.833 --> 03:15.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% We read about blue-green algae from time to time. 03:15.733 --> 03:18.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But you have another story that comes right after that, 03:18.366 --> 03:21.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% which takes place in Germany. 03:21.233 --> 03:23.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Yeah, yeah, that was phosphorous's birthplace. 03:23.833 --> 03:27.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so Germany really just appears throughout the book. 03:27.233 --> 03:30.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But yeah, the opening chapter starts 03:30.366 --> 03:34.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% with a gentleman in his 70s walking down the beach 03:34.700 --> 03:36.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% on the Baltic coast. 03:37.600 --> 03:41.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% In that area, Baltic amber is like, it's like a thing. 03:41.066 --> 03:43.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% It's people go out harvesting it and selling it 03:43.433 --> 03:46.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% because the region used to be a conifer forest, 03:46.166 --> 03:48.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% so there was a lot of sap up there. 03:48.066 --> 03:50.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that sap eventually became amber. 03:50.966 --> 03:52.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so people go hunting for it. 03:52.866 --> 03:55.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Unfortunately for him and for a lot of people, 03:55.333 --> 03:56.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% they don't always find amber. 03:56.633 --> 03:59.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% They find nuggets of elemental phosphorus. 03:59.500 --> 04:00.833 align:left position:32.5% line:5% size:57.5% And this is a-- 04:00.833 --> 04:03.933 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% - Norman: You described it as being, what he picked up, 04:03.933 --> 04:05.733 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% about the size of a quarter. - Dan: Yeah. 04:05.733 --> 04:07.133 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% - Norman: An orange... - Dan: Yeah. 04:07.133 --> 04:09.133 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% - Norman: And since he was looking for a fossil, 04:09.133 --> 04:10.300 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% it's not very interesting. 04:10.300 --> 04:12.033 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% - Dan: No, he thought it interesting enough 04:12.033 --> 04:13.233 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% to bring home to his wife. 04:13.233 --> 04:14.766 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% So he put it in his pocket. 04:16.133 --> 04:19.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And then his pants exploded in flames, 04:19.333 --> 04:21.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and his leg exploded in flames. 04:21.466 --> 04:24.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And he instinctively went into the Baltic Sea 04:24.533 --> 04:27.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to put out the flames. 04:27.100 --> 04:28.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And every time he'd come back out, 04:28.800 --> 04:31.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% his leg would light afire again. 04:31.166 --> 04:33.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And he had no idea, nor should he have, 04:33.666 --> 04:35.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% what had happened to him. 04:35.166 --> 04:38.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And he was thinking to himself, "I don't smoke. 04:38.133 --> 04:40.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% "You know, there's no lighter in my pocket. 04:40.800 --> 04:42.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% "There's nothing in my pocket but a rock. 04:42.766 --> 04:45.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And why has it exploded?" 04:45.766 --> 04:47.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And that launches the book 04:47.000 --> 04:49.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and really the story of phosphorus, 04:49.533 --> 04:51.566 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and I'll just explain real quickly 04:51.566 --> 04:53.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that why that nugget was there 04:53.233 --> 04:58.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% was because it was dropped, as with, along with many, many, 04:58.200 --> 05:01.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% many bombs loaded with these phosphorus pebbles 05:01.533 --> 05:04.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% across northern Germany during World War II. 05:04.700 --> 05:06.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% The idea that they were gonna burn, 05:06.100 --> 05:07.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and they did burn Hamburg down to the ground. 05:07.966 --> 05:11.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But this phosphorus that was driving the explosions 05:11.600 --> 05:15.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in these bombs stabilizes when it hits water. 05:15.033 --> 05:16.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So it's almost like a time capsule. 05:16.933 --> 05:19.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% All these nuggets of phosphorus are in the Elbe River 05:19.900 --> 05:22.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% up in Hamburg, Germany, and along the Baltic coast. 05:22.966 --> 05:24.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Left over from, say, 05:24.166 --> 05:25.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% the fire bombing of-- - Fire bombs. 05:25.833 --> 05:28.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% - Dresden being the most famous, but there were more. 05:28.066 --> 05:30.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Yeah, and Hamburg was just about as bad. 05:30.033 --> 05:33.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so what it looked like at the time, I've described it, 05:33.533 --> 05:34.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it's just like fireworks. 05:34.900 --> 05:38.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% When you see those glowing globules coming down 05:38.133 --> 05:39.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from the sky, fireworks. 05:39.933 --> 05:42.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Those are basically harmless when they land in Lake Mendota 05:42.866 --> 05:44.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or Lake Michigan or anywhere else. 05:44.700 --> 05:47.000 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% These are not harmless nuggets. 05:47.000 --> 05:50.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% These are very, very explosive, incendiary nuggets 05:50.266 --> 05:52.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of elemental phosphorus. 05:52.400 --> 05:54.966 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And if they dry out and warm 05:54.966 --> 05:58.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to just a tick above 80 degrees or so, they explode. 05:58.433 --> 05:59.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And your pants pocket, 05:59.700 --> 06:02.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% even on the Baltic Coast in December or whenever, 06:02.133 --> 06:04.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I can't remember the month that this happened, 06:04.633 --> 06:07.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% his pant pocket was warm enough to make this stuff explode. 06:07.200 --> 06:09.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And he burned, I think, 40% of his body. 06:09.933 --> 06:11.100 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% He survived. 06:11.100 --> 06:13.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But they were gonna bring in a helicopter. 06:13.133 --> 06:15.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% They're afraid he'd take down the helicopter 06:15.266 --> 06:16.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% 'cause he just kept exploding. 06:16.566 --> 06:18.166 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% It was crazy. 06:18.166 --> 06:23.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - It's something that was known before World War II, 06:23.333 --> 06:26.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% what phosphorus could do in those circumstances? 06:26.566 --> 06:29.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Well, so here we are in Hamburg, Germany, 06:29.066 --> 06:34.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and so we open with the fire bombing of Hamburg in 1943. 06:34.566 --> 06:37.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But Hamburg is also where phosphorus was discovered 06:37.566 --> 06:40.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in 1669 by an alchemist named Hennig Brand, 06:40.900 --> 06:46.300 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% who was chasing after the mythical philosopher's stone. 06:46.300 --> 06:49.533 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% This substance that the early chemists or alchemists 06:49.533 --> 06:52.400 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% thought they could use to transmute base metals 06:52.400 --> 06:53.800 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% into something more valuable. 06:53.800 --> 06:56.200 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% - Norman: Turn lead into gold. - Dan: Lead into gold, yeah. 06:56.200 --> 06:58.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% And nobody knew exactly. 06:58.266 --> 07:01.966 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% And the theory at the time was "All metals are evolving. 07:01.966 --> 07:05.733 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% "We just need to find out what's moving that process along 07:05.733 --> 07:08.566 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% and speed it along, and we'll get rich." 07:08.566 --> 07:10.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And so this guy thought he could isolate it 07:10.766 --> 07:13.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% from the human waste stream, from urine. 07:13.933 --> 07:19.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so Hennig Brand in 1669 started to experiment, 07:19.433 --> 07:21.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to tinker with tinkle, if you will. 07:21.966 --> 07:26.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And he ended up basically distilling elemental phosphorus 07:26.933 --> 07:28.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% out of that waste. 07:28.300 --> 07:30.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So elemental phosphorus doesn't exist 07:30.866 --> 07:32.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% on its own in the natural world. 07:32.566 --> 07:34.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% The element's always bound up with oxygen atoms 07:34.533 --> 07:36.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% so it's stable. 07:36.000 --> 07:38.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% This guy figured out how to isolate it and strip it. 07:38.300 --> 07:39.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so that makes it very volatile 07:39.833 --> 07:41.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% because it wants to get back in touch 07:41.433 --> 07:42.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% with those oxygen atoms. 07:42.600 --> 07:43.766 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% So it explodes. 07:43.766 --> 07:44.966 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Did he have adverse experiences 07:44.966 --> 07:46.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% in his experimenting? 07:46.133 --> 07:47.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - You know, the historical record doesn't show 07:47.733 --> 07:49.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that he did himself any great damage, 07:49.666 --> 07:51.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but others who followed in his footprints did. 07:51.566 --> 07:53.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% There were a lot of people who wouldn't even touch it. 07:53.766 --> 07:55.366 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And so when he discovered it, you know, 07:55.366 --> 07:57.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% he didn't really have a use for it 07:57.566 --> 08:00.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% because it wasn't turning anything gold. 08:00.033 --> 08:01.966 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It was more just a curiosity 08:01.966 --> 08:07.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% because it was this waxy nugget that, like, glowed, 08:07.033 --> 08:08.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% it was phosphorescent, it glowed in the dark. 08:08.766 --> 08:11.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And you could sketch it on a wall 08:11.000 --> 08:13.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and it would glow, the handwriting. 08:13.533 --> 08:17.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So they used it to just kind of wow the, you know, 08:17.466 --> 08:20.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% the courts of Europe; they would put on performances. 08:20.333 --> 08:22.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But after about a century, 08:22.366 --> 08:24.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% they realized that there were some other applications, 08:24.433 --> 08:27.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% some good for humanity and some not so good. 08:27.200 --> 08:31.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - And pretty early on in the history, by which I mean, 08:31.233 --> 08:33.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% well, certainly by the 19th century, early 19th century, 08:33.833 --> 08:40.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% post-Industrial Revolution population explosion, really. 08:40.833 --> 08:44.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% You use England as an example where the population doubled 08:44.300 --> 08:47.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in a fairly short number of decades. 08:47.600 --> 08:50.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Yeah, I don't remember the exact years or decades. 08:50.400 --> 08:56.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But yeah, so as this element was discovered in the 1600s. 08:56.133 --> 09:01.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% By the 1800s, it was recognized as an essential fertilizer. 09:01.366 --> 09:05.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And it's kind of a contorted, torturous story 09:05.833 --> 09:09.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% as how they figured out this stuff was phosphorus, 09:09.466 --> 09:12.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but basically, the English were using anything 09:12.300 --> 09:14.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% they could think of to make a crop grow. 09:14.100 --> 09:15.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And this is, you know, throughout history, 09:15.633 --> 09:18.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but it was really dire in the early, early 1800s 09:18.833 --> 09:20.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% during the Little Ice Age. 09:20.300 --> 09:23.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% The famine was ever a threat, if not ever present. 09:23.400 --> 09:26.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And so the agriculture tinkering began, 09:26.133 --> 09:30.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and they would put blood on crops, they'd put fabric, 09:30.766 --> 09:32.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% they'd put bones. 09:32.166 --> 09:36.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And bones really turned out to be a very potent fertilizer. 09:36.666 --> 09:38.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And they didn't know why at the time, 09:38.300 --> 09:39.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but they just knew that-- 09:39.633 --> 09:42.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - What kind of bones are we talking about? 09:42.166 --> 09:44.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Any, humans included, you know. 09:44.966 --> 09:46.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% The Battle of Waterloo took place, 09:46.833 --> 09:48.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% I believe, I'm gonna get this wrong-- 09:48.233 --> 09:50.466 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Norman: 1815. - Dan: 1815, thank you. 09:50.466 --> 09:52.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% And some ten, let's see, 09:52.933 --> 09:55.833 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% in about ten hours, 40,000 soldiers fell, 09:55.833 --> 09:58.766 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% and along with a lot of horses and other animals. 09:58.766 --> 10:03.200 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% And if you were to go to the battlefield of Waterloo today, 10:03.200 --> 10:05.433 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% you would find no remains. 10:05.433 --> 10:06.700 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% Which I guess isn't surprising 10:06.700 --> 10:08.200 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% because it's kind of a sacred ground. 10:08.200 --> 10:10.966 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% And you could think that it would somehow 10:10.966 --> 10:13.066 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% be turned into a monument, 10:13.066 --> 10:15.166 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% and maybe the remains moved somewhere. 10:15.166 --> 10:18.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% But if you went to visit the battlefield in 1825, 10:18.166 --> 10:20.566 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% ten years after the battle, you wouldn't find any bones. 10:20.566 --> 10:22.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And that's because the British, 10:22.533 --> 10:25.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% in their never-ending pursuit for fertilizer, 10:25.833 --> 10:27.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% realized that bones, and the first bones 10:27.633 --> 10:30.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% they were tinkering with actually came from like a, 10:30.200 --> 10:32.100 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% I believe it was knife factories. 10:32.100 --> 10:34.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And the handles, knife handles were used for bones, 10:34.566 --> 10:35.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and there was a lot of shavings. 10:35.966 --> 10:38.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And it turned out to be like a Miracle-Gro. 10:38.000 --> 10:42.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so that sent the English on the hunt for bones, 10:42.266 --> 10:43.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and they ended up at Waterloo 10:43.666 --> 10:47.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and battlefields across Europe, looting them, mining them, 10:47.233 --> 10:50.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% plundering them, you know, both their enemy combatants, 10:50.300 --> 10:51.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% the remains of their enemy combatants 10:51.866 --> 10:53.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and of their own sons. 10:53.200 --> 10:54.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Their own soldiers. - Own soldiers. 10:54.966 --> 10:57.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So they built mills to grind these bones. 10:57.266 --> 10:59.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% I mean, it was an industrial-scale operation. 10:59.600 --> 11:03.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Was this well-known to the people of England? 11:04.533 --> 11:07.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - You know, I found some historic newspaper accounts 11:07.766 --> 11:10.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% where people were pretty... 11:10.666 --> 11:14.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% The writer of this one article in, I think it was 1821, 11:14.600 --> 11:16.933 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% was horrified because they had thought 11:16.933 --> 11:18.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that they were getting a shipment of animal bones, 11:18.800 --> 11:21.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and they saw some human skeletons in it, 11:21.000 --> 11:24.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and they were able to deduce where it had come from. 11:24.366 --> 11:28.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And I don't think people had a big compunction about it 11:28.333 --> 11:31.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% because they were starving or in danger of starving. 11:31.466 --> 11:33.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So they did what they had to do. 11:35.766 --> 11:37.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - How long did that go on? 11:38.166 --> 11:40.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Well, the bone rush, and that's the story of phosphorus. 11:40.433 --> 11:42.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So it's really interesting. 11:42.966 --> 11:44.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% They were using bones, and at that point, 11:44.800 --> 11:46.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% they didn't know that it was phosphorus 11:46.866 --> 11:50.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that made those bones such a potent fertilizer. 11:50.733 --> 11:52.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% They did know that animal waste 11:52.700 --> 11:57.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% was almost uniformly very, very productive as a fertilizer. 11:57.133 --> 11:59.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And this gets into some weird history. 11:59.833 --> 12:02.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Justus von Liebig, who's kind of recognized 12:02.100 --> 12:04.766 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% as the father of modern chemistry, 12:04.766 --> 12:06.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% was scouring the English coast 12:06.366 --> 12:08.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% with some other scientists in the 1820s. 12:08.466 --> 12:11.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And they came across some skeletal, 12:11.566 --> 12:15.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% or not skeletal, I guess, fossilized remains of dinosaurs 12:15.466 --> 12:20.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that were so intact, the dinosaurs had fossilized feces 12:20.533 --> 12:22.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in their digestive tract. 12:22.533 --> 12:24.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And Liebig, the chemist, thought, 12:24.366 --> 12:27.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% "You know, if human manure 12:27.300 --> 12:30.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% "and animal manure is such an effective fertilizer, 12:30.566 --> 12:32.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% maybe this fossilized manure is." 12:32.400 --> 12:34.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% So he did an analysis and he realized, 12:34.633 --> 12:36.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he was able to figure out and isolate, 12:36.366 --> 12:38.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% "This is phosphorus that we're after." 12:38.800 --> 12:40.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% So then the hunt got more focused. 12:40.500 --> 12:42.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Why the advantage though? 12:42.133 --> 12:45.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Because fossils are presumably a lot harder to come by 12:45.866 --> 12:47.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% than what they were already using. 12:47.900 --> 12:50.966 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Yeah, but that was the jump they were able to make. 12:50.966 --> 12:53.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And there was actually a remarkable number of, 12:53.366 --> 12:56.066 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% they called them bezoas stones, I don't know why, 12:56.066 --> 12:59.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but they were literally clumps or nuggets 12:59.533 --> 13:02.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of fossilized dung that were processed similar 13:02.466 --> 13:03.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% to how bones were. 13:03.966 --> 13:07.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Involved adding acid to release the phosphorus 13:07.533 --> 13:10.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and the fertilizing properties of it on the crops. 13:10.866 --> 13:13.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But yeah, they ran out 13:13.533 --> 13:16.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% of dinosaur fossils real quickly, 13:16.066 --> 13:18.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and that sent them to the other side 13:18.033 --> 13:20.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of the globe to South America. 13:20.666 --> 13:25.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Looking for what would be, in effect phosphate beds? 13:26.733 --> 13:29.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Not yet; so they were on their way to realizing 13:29.733 --> 13:31.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% that there are certain rock deposits 13:31.433 --> 13:35.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that are rich with phosphorus, but they did, 13:35.500 --> 13:37.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Liebig, I believe, did the analysis. 13:37.400 --> 13:42.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But bird poop from the guano islands off the coast of Peru 13:42.066 --> 13:45.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% was just an incredibly potent fertilizer. 13:45.366 --> 13:49.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And the analysis they did, it's been said that the ratio, 13:49.066 --> 13:53.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% so the three primary fertilizing ingredients are nitrogen, 13:53.266 --> 13:54.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% potassium, and phosphorus. 13:54.566 --> 13:55.733 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% That's NPK. 13:55.733 --> 13:57.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% That's what you'll see on a bag of, you know, 13:57.733 --> 14:00.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% whatever kind of fertilizer you might buy for your garden 14:00.266 --> 14:03.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or for your crops if you're a farmer. 14:03.133 --> 14:05.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And that's what this bird poop had. 14:05.433 --> 14:08.500 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And you know, we had plenty of potassium at the time, 14:08.500 --> 14:12.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and we weren't in a danger of having an extreme shortage 14:12.566 --> 14:14.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of nitrogen at that time. 14:14.500 --> 14:15.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% That would come later. 14:15.666 --> 14:17.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But we would solve that in a different way. 14:17.466 --> 14:18.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But phosphorus is what we really needed. 14:18.866 --> 14:21.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So they started up this phosphorus trade 14:21.333 --> 14:24.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that went on from the 1830s to the 1880s. 14:24.900 --> 14:28.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And there were news accounts at the time that these islands, 14:28.166 --> 14:30.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% so the islands were so rich with bird poop 14:30.400 --> 14:33.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% because of the Humboldt Current coming up the western coast 14:33.566 --> 14:39.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of South America carried with it all sorts of plankton, 14:39.066 --> 14:40.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% which brought in fish, which brought in birds. 14:40.966 --> 14:42.466 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And the birds would eat the fish. 14:42.466 --> 14:45.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And they needed a place to nest and, you know, to poop. 14:45.400 --> 14:47.533 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% And so they would go to these islands, 14:47.533 --> 14:49.066 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% and what made these islands unique, 14:49.066 --> 14:52.466 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% not just being in the middle of the Humboldt Current, 14:52.466 --> 14:56.800 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% but [clears throat] they're so dry that it never rains. 14:56.800 --> 15:00.333 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% So normally that waste would get washed back into the sea. 15:00.333 --> 15:02.733 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% But in this case, it just, it turned into, 15:02.733 --> 15:04.866 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% over eons or millennia, 15:04.866 --> 15:08.166 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% turned into mountains of dried bird poop 15:08.166 --> 15:09.933 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that was just ready to fertilize 15:09.933 --> 15:11.733 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% any kind of crop you could imagine. 15:12.833 --> 15:15.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - You had primarily what the English, 15:15.800 --> 15:17.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% other countries involved at this point, 15:17.600 --> 15:18.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% going for the guano trade? 15:18.966 --> 15:20.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - The English pioneered it, 15:20.133 --> 15:22.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but the Americans jumped on board 15:22.000 --> 15:24.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and so did most of western Europe real quickly. 15:24.733 --> 15:27.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And yeah, these accounts were like, "This is inexhaustible. 15:27.900 --> 15:31.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% "There is so much poop, so much bird poop down there 15:31.333 --> 15:34.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that we don't have to worry about running out." 15:34.300 --> 15:36.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And then within 50 years, they ran out. 15:36.333 --> 15:37.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% That's the story of phosphorus. 15:37.600 --> 15:38.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% We keep hunting for it 15:38.933 --> 15:41.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and we keep playing out whatever deposits we find of it. 15:41.700 --> 15:44.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - At this point though, you refer to the circle of life, 15:44.566 --> 15:47.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and all of this is still part of the circle of life. 15:47.133 --> 15:50.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% The kinda recycling of these materials. 15:50.066 --> 15:52.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Yeah, so that's, you know, we were saying earlier 15:52.800 --> 15:56.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% how phosphorus is in every single cell 15:56.400 --> 15:59.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in every organism on the planet. 15:59.633 --> 16:01.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And historically, where did this phosphorus 16:01.566 --> 16:02.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% originally come from? 16:02.833 --> 16:06.300 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% It came from after molten earth congealed, 16:06.300 --> 16:08.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it was in certain rocks, igneous rocks, 16:08.433 --> 16:09.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that just slowly eroded 16:09.933 --> 16:12.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and leached their phosphorus molecules. 16:12.333 --> 16:15.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% They're actually phosphates, the molecule packaged, 16:15.233 --> 16:20.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% or the atoms packaged with phosphorus, with oxygen atoms, 16:20.900 --> 16:23.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% which is actually technically the fertilizing component 16:23.600 --> 16:25.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that we're talking about here. 16:25.566 --> 16:27.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But I just call it phosphorus for simplicity's sake. 16:27.933 --> 16:30.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Anyway, that was a slow trickle of phosphorus 16:30.133 --> 16:31.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% into the living world. 16:31.366 --> 16:32.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And whatever took up that phosphorus, 16:32.800 --> 16:36.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% whenever it died, that phosphorus did not go away. 16:36.600 --> 16:38.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% It was picked up by something else, 16:38.433 --> 16:41.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% whether it was in the ocean, in the lakes, on the land, 16:41.533 --> 16:43.333 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% it was circled over and over and over. 16:43.333 --> 16:45.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - So would you say phosphorus can be neither 16:45.133 --> 16:48.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% created nor destroyed? - Exactly, yeah. 16:48.333 --> 16:50.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And so it was the governor of life, 16:50.866 --> 16:53.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and how much phosphorus could leach from these rocks 16:53.800 --> 16:56.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% was how much life Earth could support. 16:56.000 --> 16:57.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And it was the circle of life. 16:57.400 --> 17:00.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And you know, this is a real simplification, 17:00.233 --> 17:02.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but it's actually really accurate. 17:02.433 --> 17:06.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% A good illustration is just a pasture with a cow on it, 17:06.566 --> 17:08.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% an acre, you know, that's basically what 17:08.133 --> 17:10.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% a grazing cow needs. 17:10.066 --> 17:13.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And that cow eats the grass, that cow poops, 17:13.033 --> 17:14.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that poop grows grass, that cow eats the grass, 17:14.966 --> 17:18.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, circle of life. 17:18.633 --> 17:22.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Well, once we figured out that there were certain materials 17:22.200 --> 17:25.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that were heavily concentrated or had heavy concentrations 17:25.233 --> 17:27.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of phosphorus, we cracked that circle of life 17:27.933 --> 17:29.933 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and turned it into a straight line. 17:29.933 --> 17:34.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that line now runs from crop lands into our waters. 17:34.500 --> 17:36.833 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And sometimes that's problematic. 17:36.833 --> 17:40.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But yeah, we broke the circle of life 17:40.400 --> 17:42.200 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and we broke it in a real big way 17:42.200 --> 17:45.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% when we made the jump from, we went from bones to bird poop 17:45.033 --> 17:47.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to finally rock deposits. 17:47.066 --> 17:48.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And these aren't the rock deposits 17:48.266 --> 17:49.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I was just talking about. 17:49.466 --> 17:51.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% These are sedimentary rocks. 17:51.666 --> 17:54.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% They're basically just the result 17:54.533 --> 17:58.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of dead sea life accreting on the sea floor. 17:58.600 --> 18:00.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And over time, that stuff turns, 18:00.666 --> 18:02.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% the pressure turns it into rocks. 18:02.933 --> 18:07.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And tectonic forces or whatever, ocean levels sink or climb, 18:07.733 --> 18:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but it becomes accessible on land, where it can be mined. 18:13.233 --> 18:16.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So we've been mining these phosphorous-rich rocks 18:16.200 --> 18:18.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% since right around 1890. 18:18.933 --> 18:20.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Right when we started running outta bird poop, 18:20.666 --> 18:22.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% we turned to these rocks. 18:22.666 --> 18:24.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Those rocks are running out now. 18:24.266 --> 18:26.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Well, there was quite a big boom in Florida, I know-- 18:26.800 --> 18:29.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - There was and there is. - Central Florida in the 1890s. 18:29.233 --> 18:31.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, that was like a gold rush. 18:31.900 --> 18:36.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% I mean, it was, I mean, apocryphal or not, 18:36.200 --> 18:37.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% there was plenty of news accounts 18:37.533 --> 18:40.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% about people shooting each other over pebbles in the street 18:40.733 --> 18:41.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% because they had built streets 18:41.933 --> 18:44.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in central Florida out of these rocks 18:44.500 --> 18:47.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% before they realized that they were nutritional gold. 18:47.700 --> 18:50.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% So yeah, Florida had a big deposit, 18:50.366 --> 18:52.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and we rely on that to this day. 18:52.166 --> 18:55.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I mean, the bread on your table is probably can be traced 18:55.433 --> 18:57.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% back to rocks being mined in Florida. 18:57.966 --> 19:01.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% The problem is, just like bones and bird poop, 19:01.500 --> 19:03.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% we're playing out these deposits, 19:03.500 --> 19:06.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and it's been estimated 19:06.066 --> 19:10.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that the deposits down in Florida should be played out 19:10.300 --> 19:11.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in three or four decades. 19:11.866 --> 19:16.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% There's some smaller deposits out west in Idaho and Utah, 19:16.066 --> 19:17.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and there's some in North Carolina. 19:17.933 --> 19:20.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But we're gonna become dependent on other countries 19:20.333 --> 19:23.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% for our nutritional security, which is a lot trickier, 19:23.300 --> 19:25.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% I would argue, than energy security 19:25.533 --> 19:28.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% because we can have workarounds to oil. 19:28.100 --> 19:31.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% There's no workaround to life's bottleneck, phosphorus. 19:31.000 --> 19:35.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - But it too, is limited. 19:35.366 --> 19:39.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Takes a very long time to develop any of those deposits 19:39.333 --> 19:41.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that you talked about. 19:41.000 --> 19:43.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And also, there's a finite amount of it. 19:43.800 --> 19:46.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, you know, it's a real paradox. 19:46.866 --> 19:48.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% At the same time we're running out of it, 19:48.666 --> 19:50.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% we're overusing it to the point 19:50.333 --> 19:52.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% where we're polluting our waters with... 19:52.233 --> 19:55.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% 'Cause the stuff grows, corn, soy, wheat, 19:55.300 --> 19:58.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% anything we want on land, when it gets into the water, 19:58.033 --> 19:59.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% it grows stuff we don't want, 19:59.233 --> 20:01.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which is the toxic algae we were talking about 20:01.033 --> 20:02.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% at the beginning of the show. 20:02.233 --> 20:06.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - You have a story that's remarkable about a place 20:06.200 --> 20:08.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that originally was called Ocean Island. 20:08.900 --> 20:11.500 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% With these just mountains of deposits. 20:11.500 --> 20:13.400 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Yeah, yeah, and that wasn't bird poop. 20:13.400 --> 20:14.766 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% That was rock. 20:14.766 --> 20:17.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And that was around 1910. 20:17.533 --> 20:19.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% We got really good thanks to the chemists of the day 20:19.733 --> 20:22.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% at zeroing in on these rare deposits. 20:22.400 --> 20:27.800 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% And these islands were rich with rock deposits. 20:27.800 --> 20:30.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% There were, I don't know, probably a dozen or so. 20:30.933 --> 20:34.933 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% But we literally, Naru and Banaba, 20:34.933 --> 20:38.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I believe that's how you pronounce that island, Banaba. 20:38.166 --> 20:41.400 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% We basically stripped those islands to the waterline almost. 20:41.400 --> 20:44.266 align:left position:35% line:5% size:55% And you know, the inhabitants be damned. 20:44.266 --> 20:46.733 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% Some of them stayed, some of them were exiled. 20:46.733 --> 20:48.100 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% During World War II, 20:48.100 --> 20:50.166 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% some of them were enslaved by the Japanese. 20:50.166 --> 20:54.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And yeah, we destroyed cultures and islands 20:54.133 --> 20:56.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% in the name of putting food on our table. 20:56.233 --> 20:59.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And when I say we, I mean primarily Western society, 20:59.466 --> 21:01.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Western civilizations. 21:01.066 --> 21:03.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Well, I think you mentioned that the Allies after the war, 21:04.666 --> 21:09.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Australia, New Zealand, or that particular island, 21:10.633 --> 21:14.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% basically relocated everybody 1,600 miles away. 21:14.800 --> 21:16.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Very different kind of place. 21:16.200 --> 21:20.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Yeah, yeah, and they didn't do really well. 21:20.466 --> 21:23.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I was gonna go out, COVID interrupted these plans, 21:23.866 --> 21:25.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but I was gonna go out to, 21:25.900 --> 21:28.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% well, initially I wanted to go to Banaba Island, 21:28.166 --> 21:30.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but because there's some people who have resettled it, 21:30.366 --> 21:33.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% some of the Indigenous people. 21:33.233 --> 21:34.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% There's no airstrip. 21:34.666 --> 21:37.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% There's a boat that brings medical supplies 21:37.300 --> 21:39.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and food every three months or so. 21:39.566 --> 21:42.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So if you wanna go there, you can go for a night 21:42.200 --> 21:44.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or you have to go for three months. [chuckling] 21:44.733 --> 21:46.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so that was making things a little dicey 21:46.600 --> 21:48.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% as far as itineraries. 21:49.900 --> 21:54.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Once we get into this post-war period 21:54.566 --> 21:57.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and people start looking for other sources then, 21:57.900 --> 21:59.266 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% as they know? 21:59.266 --> 22:04.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I mean, you point out that there's one person at this point 22:04.433 --> 22:08.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% who controls what, 80% of the known phosphate. 22:08.066 --> 22:09.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Well, that's, yeah, 22:09.233 --> 22:11.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that's kind of what's on the horizon here. 22:11.633 --> 22:15.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So I was saying these rock deposits are relatively scarce 22:15.566 --> 22:18.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and they're being mined intensively. 22:20.166 --> 22:25.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Today, 70% to 80% of the world's phosphate rock reserves 22:25.133 --> 22:28.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% are in Morocco, in the Western Sahara territory 22:28.533 --> 22:29.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% that is occupied. 22:29.700 --> 22:33.100 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - You talk about actually a pretty hot war 22:33.100 --> 22:35.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that very few people know about. 22:35.100 --> 22:37.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - The War of the Sands, yeah, in the 1970s. 22:37.900 --> 22:41.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So Spain developed a huge mine in Western Sahara 22:41.766 --> 22:43.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in the early 1970s. 22:43.166 --> 22:46.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And then Spain pulled out of... 22:46.266 --> 22:48.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Western Sahara was a Spanish colony. 22:48.266 --> 22:51.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Spain pulled out and Morocco filled that vacuum. 22:51.300 --> 22:55.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And the Native people of the Sahara Desert there 22:55.866 --> 22:57.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% didn't really take too kindly to the idea 22:57.566 --> 22:59.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of their northern neighbors coming in 22:59.733 --> 23:03.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and taking over operation of the mine. 23:03.266 --> 23:06.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They saw that mine and the assets that it was pulling 23:06.033 --> 23:07.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% from the ground as theirs. 23:07.200 --> 23:09.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And so that started a low-grade war. 23:09.800 --> 23:14.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so this was 1974, if my memory serves. 23:14.066 --> 23:16.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And next door in Algeria, 23:16.166 --> 23:19.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% they built, like, a tent city as a refugee camp. 23:19.700 --> 23:21.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And the idea was things are gonna cool down 23:21.700 --> 23:24.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in two or three months and everybody can go home. 23:24.233 --> 23:25.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Those tent camps still there today, 23:25.900 --> 23:27.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and they're home to, like, 100,000 people. 23:27.700 --> 23:28.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% They don't have running water. 23:28.866 --> 23:30.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They don't have, you know, 23:30.100 --> 23:32.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% sanitation in the sense that we do. 23:33.700 --> 23:35.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% They don't have a lot of hope. 23:35.166 --> 23:40.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so this war over that mine pretty much flickered out 23:41.233 --> 23:43.433 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% in the 1990s, but it's flaring up again. 23:43.433 --> 23:48.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And that mine is protected very heavily by Moroccan forces. 23:48.833 --> 23:51.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% There's berm, a massive berm. 23:51.400 --> 23:53.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% It's like a, I never remember my numbers, 23:53.866 --> 23:56.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% but I think it's like 1,600 miles long, 23:56.066 --> 23:59.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% protecting not just the mine but that part of Western Sahara. 23:59.533 --> 24:01.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And it's filled with landmines. 24:01.433 --> 24:04.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And on top of that are, you know, machine guns. 24:04.266 --> 24:07.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And on the other side of that are people who are, you know, 24:07.866 --> 24:10.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% trying to go home and feeling jilted 24:10.033 --> 24:13.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% because of the way that mine has been exploding 24:13.066 --> 24:15.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% with what they believe is their resource. 24:15.933 --> 24:18.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% The Moroccans have a different side of the story. 24:18.100 --> 24:20.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, it's a pattern that we've seen before, isn't it? 24:20.900 --> 24:25.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Where the Natives get pushed out, 24:25.766 --> 24:32.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% or at best make a few dollars off of this fortune 24:32.066 --> 24:33.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that they're sitting on. 24:33.466 --> 24:36.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, and what makes this different from gold and silver 24:36.566 --> 24:39.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% is that it's in a real way, 24:39.166 --> 24:41.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% it's nutrition that they're sitting on. 24:41.033 --> 24:42.233 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% They're sitting on the one thing, 24:42.233 --> 24:43.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I mean, we can't-- 24:43.433 --> 24:45.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - They're sitting on a food supply, in effect. 24:45.233 --> 24:49.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - They're sitting on, yeah, the Fort Knox of food. 24:51.200 --> 24:56.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - I think even back in 1938, 24:56.266 --> 24:58.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Franklin D. Roosevelt, President, 24:59.666 --> 25:04.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% realized the value, the importance, 25:04.233 --> 25:06.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the crucial significance of phosphates. 25:06.833 --> 25:10.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Yeah, he said we needed a national phosphorus policy, 25:10.000 --> 25:11.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% like an energy policy. 25:11.166 --> 25:12.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% He recognized that. 25:12.866 --> 25:14.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Presidents today don't. 25:14.266 --> 25:17.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I was at a phosphorus conference in North Carolina last year, 25:17.933 --> 25:22.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and the organizers were saying their goal will be met 25:22.133 --> 25:25.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% if they can ever get a President of the United States 25:25.100 --> 25:27.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to publicly acknowledge how dependent 25:27.533 --> 25:30.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and how dicey our supply of phosphorus, 25:30.200 --> 25:31.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% isn't necessarily today, 25:31.433 --> 25:35.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% but is gonna become in coming decades. 25:35.166 --> 25:36.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And we need to plan for that. 25:36.933 --> 25:41.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Now, this mongo deposit in Western Sahara and Morocco, 25:41.766 --> 25:43.466 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% like I said, it's about 70% or 80% 25:43.466 --> 25:45.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of the world's proven reserves. 25:45.600 --> 25:48.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It's been estimated, I mean, some people were a little, 25:48.133 --> 25:50.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I think, a little alarmist saying that 25:50.733 --> 25:53.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% those deposits could play out in, like, 80 years 25:53.733 --> 25:55.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and then we're in big trouble. 25:55.466 --> 25:57.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% More reasonable estimates are 300 or 400 years. 25:57.500 --> 25:59.600 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But that's not long in the scheme of humanity. 25:59.600 --> 26:02.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And as I was saying earlier, or that you had mentioned, 26:02.733 --> 26:04.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% it doesn't go away. 26:04.166 --> 26:06.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It's not like we're throwing this phosphorus away, 26:06.800 --> 26:08.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% we could never get it back. 26:08.233 --> 26:12.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But we use it as a food nutrient, as a crop nutrient. 26:12.133 --> 26:15.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And then it just disperses into concentrations 26:15.333 --> 26:18.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% that makes it very difficult to mine like we do today. 26:18.600 --> 26:21.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And I can't imagine, I mean, we'll figure something out. 26:21.533 --> 26:24.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Humanity may not be humming along with 10 billion people. 26:24.433 --> 26:25.600 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% I don't know. 26:25.600 --> 26:27.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I mean, who knows what's gonna happen tomorrow. 26:27.466 --> 26:29.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But it'll be very interesting 26:29.900 --> 26:35.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to see how we manage phosphorus in the coming centuries. 26:35.633 --> 26:39.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And I think where we're headed is back to the circle of life, 26:39.233 --> 26:41.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% back to being very careful about how we, 26:41.300 --> 26:44.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% how we fertilize with it and how we recapture that 26:44.166 --> 26:45.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% before we let it go into our lakes. 26:45.866 --> 26:47.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I mean, including Lake Mendota right here. 26:47.666 --> 26:49.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Well, that's another part of that. 26:49.300 --> 26:51.200 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% We haven't really gotten into it too much. 26:51.200 --> 26:54.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% It's one thing to think of phosphate as something 26:54.366 --> 27:02.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that certainly is crucial and that can do so much, 27:03.533 --> 27:05.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% even though it's gotta be managed 27:05.800 --> 27:07.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% from a content standpoint, 27:07.166 --> 27:11.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% from the amount of it that's available is limited, 27:11.733 --> 27:13.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that kind of thing. 27:13.000 --> 27:15.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% But we haven't gotten too much into what 27:15.266 --> 27:17.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% you just mentioned there, Dan. 27:17.333 --> 27:20.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that is the effect on the environment 27:20.133 --> 27:21.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the way this phosphate is being used. 27:21.933 --> 27:24.133 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Yeah, yeah, so the book's organized 27:24.133 --> 27:25.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% in basically the hunt for phosphorus, 27:25.900 --> 27:27.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% which is what we've just been talking about. 27:27.900 --> 27:31.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And the second part of it is the price. 27:31.033 --> 27:33.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And the price comes not just from what a farmer has to pay 27:33.900 --> 27:37.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% to put something on his field to make his crops grow. 27:37.033 --> 27:39.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% It comes in the form of polluted waters 27:39.166 --> 27:41.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% because the stuff has been, 27:41.066 --> 27:43.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% since we've figured out these rock deposits are so thick 27:43.566 --> 27:47.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% with phosphorus, we've been able to really hit 'em hard 27:47.166 --> 27:51.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and unleash into the environment a lot of phosphorus, 27:51.566 --> 27:54.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% you know, on the scale that nature never comprehended. 27:54.633 --> 27:59.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And the consequences of that are not good, 27:59.300 --> 28:00.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% particularly for our waters 28:00.566 --> 28:02.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% because phosphorus washing off a crop 28:02.500 --> 28:05.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% does what everything else does, it flows downhill. 28:05.633 --> 28:09.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And downhill, no matter where you are, ends up being in water, 28:09.433 --> 28:12.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and there, it grows stuff we don't want. 28:12.400 --> 28:14.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Now why is that the case? 28:14.600 --> 28:17.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Why is that the case if the phosphate is being used 28:17.333 --> 28:22.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% to grow a huge ear of corn, why isn't it in the corn? 28:22.300 --> 28:23.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Good question. - Why is there 28:23.700 --> 28:25.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% so much running off? - 'Cause we put too much on. 28:25.900 --> 28:29.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So it's been, so we've been mining it so intensively 28:29.466 --> 28:33.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and for years, the sea grant or land grant colleges, 28:33.266 --> 28:34.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% you know, across the country, 28:34.533 --> 28:36.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% this being one of them, University of Wisconsin, 28:36.766 --> 28:39.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% for a long time, counseled farmers that, you know, 28:39.533 --> 28:42.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% it's like when you're making soup and something tastes good, 28:42.266 --> 28:44.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% a little's good, a lot's gonna be better. 28:44.433 --> 28:48.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so they were taught, like, just as an insurance policy, 28:48.833 --> 28:51.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in case rains come before the crops, 28:51.300 --> 28:53.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% the roots take hold and the crops start to grow, 28:53.700 --> 28:56.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you may lose a lot of phosphorus on your landscape. 28:56.533 --> 28:58.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% You better put a lot on. 28:58.166 --> 29:01.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so you don't really, I guess the farmer loses it, 29:01.000 --> 29:02.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but the public also loses 29:02.333 --> 29:03.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% because then it goes into the water 29:03.733 --> 29:05.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and then it grows this blue-green algae. 29:05.133 --> 29:08.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - How much of that strategy is just marketing, do you think? 29:09.133 --> 29:10.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Well, I don't know. 29:10.300 --> 29:12.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% You know, I didn't do a lot of research 29:12.100 --> 29:14.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% into the history of it, but I think, you know, 29:14.100 --> 29:17.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% miners gotta make money and, you know, I think it was, 29:17.933 --> 29:19.900 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% nobody really pondered the downside. 29:19.900 --> 29:26.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I mean, we didn't really get to, like, it's hard to call... 29:26.233 --> 29:29.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I mean, phosphorus is toxic in its elemental form, 29:29.166 --> 29:32.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% but it has toxic consequences because it grows this algae. 29:32.166 --> 29:35.633 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And we just didn't realize the extent 29:35.633 --> 29:38.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of this problem until the 1960s. 29:38.466 --> 29:41.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And back then, it wasn't that we were worried 29:41.033 --> 29:45.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% so much about crop runoff, 29:45.400 --> 29:48.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% but it was detergent of all things. 29:48.100 --> 29:50.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% So should I talk a little bit about that? 29:50.600 --> 29:52.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Well, yeah, now, what's the connection, 29:52.666 --> 29:55.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% first of all, between crop runoff and detergent? 29:56.633 --> 29:58.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - They both have phosphorus in them. 29:58.033 --> 29:59.200 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% That's about it. 29:59.200 --> 30:01.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But so, think about Lake Erie in the 1960s. 30:01.700 --> 30:02.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% [Norman laughing] - Yeah. 30:02.866 --> 30:04.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% Catching fire. - Yeah. 30:04.433 --> 30:06.033 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% - The river and that kind of thing. 30:06.033 --> 30:07.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - The Cuyahoga River catching fire. 30:07.233 --> 30:08.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Cuyahoga River, yeah. 30:08.400 --> 30:10.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yeah, and you know,   Time or Newsweek 30:10.000 --> 30:12.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% was calling it America's Dead Sea. 30:12.033 --> 30:16.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Dr. Seuss took a crack at it in The Lorax. 30:16.533 --> 30:20.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - He did later at the request, about 20 years later, 30:20.733 --> 30:24.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of some cleanup scientists, changed the line-- 30:24.300 --> 30:25.900 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - He did, yeah. - In The Lorax. 30:25.900 --> 30:28.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, but he had, I can't remember the specific line, 30:28.100 --> 30:31.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but he did not have good things to say about Lake Erie. 30:31.700 --> 30:35.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so what Lake Erie was suffering from back then, 30:35.566 --> 30:37.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% wasn't so much crop runoff, 30:37.566 --> 30:41.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% but detergent runoff or detergent waste. 30:41.933 --> 30:44.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So we didn't really have laundry detergent 30:44.066 --> 30:46.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% until the 1940s and '50s. 30:46.200 --> 30:47.500 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% We had soap. 30:47.500 --> 30:51.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And so we invented and concocted detergent 30:51.566 --> 30:53.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to work with washing machines, 30:53.366 --> 30:55.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% which weren't really prevalent until after World War II 30:55.800 --> 30:57.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and we could start making fridges and washing machines 30:57.866 --> 31:00.966 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% instead of tanks and airplanes. 31:00.966 --> 31:02.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so they needed to concoct 31:02.733 --> 31:07.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% this supercharged artificial soap. 31:07.533 --> 31:10.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And it was based largely on phosphorous, 31:10.800 --> 31:12.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% phosphates specifically. 31:12.600 --> 31:14.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% It's what made Tide so potent. 31:14.733 --> 31:16.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - They advertised heavily. 31:16.266 --> 31:19.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - They did; they created a whole entertainment industry 31:19.600 --> 31:20.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% with the soap operas. 31:20.900 --> 31:22.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% You know, that's 'cause the detergent formulas 31:22.466 --> 31:23.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% were all pretty similar 31:23.933 --> 31:25.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and they needed to distinguish themselves somehow. 31:25.933 --> 31:27.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So that was with marketing. 31:27.600 --> 31:32.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But yeah, so Lake Erie, it's a dead sea in, say, 1969, '68. 31:32.766 --> 31:36.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And this is an interesting story in the book as well. 31:36.233 --> 31:38.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Nobody at the time knew exactly what was turning Lake Erie, 31:38.833 --> 31:40.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and lakes all across the country 31:40.166 --> 31:42.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and across the world at that point, so green. 31:43.800 --> 31:45.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And there were theories, 31:45.800 --> 31:48.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and the detergent industry, phosphorus 31:48.633 --> 31:50.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% was considered a prime suspect. 31:50.200 --> 31:52.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But the detergent industry argued ferociously 31:52.966 --> 31:54.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that they weren't the problem. 31:54.266 --> 31:56.466 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% It was carbon or it was nitrogen, 31:56.466 --> 31:59.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% or it was something else that was getting into the water 31:59.366 --> 32:02.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that was making lakes turn so dastardly green 32:02.500 --> 32:06.000 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and lifeless, relatively lifeless. 32:06.000 --> 32:07.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% The Canadians had an idea. 32:07.433 --> 32:10.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% They said, "Let's go up into the middle of nowhere, 32:10.966 --> 32:15.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% "find some lakes, and treat 'em like oversized test tubes 32:15.100 --> 32:17.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% or like lab rats." - Pour in the detergent. 32:17.233 --> 32:20.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, or like, so in its simplest form, 32:20.733 --> 32:22.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% they did a bunch of experiments. 32:22.100 --> 32:25.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But the most famous and the most powerful one was 32:25.200 --> 32:26.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% they took a peanut-shaped lake. 32:26.866 --> 32:29.233 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% So it had the exact same chemistry on both sides. 32:29.233 --> 32:30.900 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% And they severed it in half. 32:31.900 --> 32:34.100 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% And in simple terms, one side got phosphorus 32:34.100 --> 32:35.466 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% and the other side didn't. 32:35.466 --> 32:38.266 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% And in two weeks, one side was as green as a golf course 32:38.266 --> 32:39.866 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% and the other side was as blue as-- 32:39.866 --> 32:41.700 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% - Norman: Two weeks! - Dan: Two weeks. 32:41.700 --> 32:43.633 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% So all the scientists at the time 32:43.633 --> 32:45.566 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% who had been going to state legislatures 32:45.566 --> 32:47.233 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% across the Midwest and the country, 32:47.233 --> 32:50.633 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% arguing that we've gotta get a handle on this phosphorus, 32:50.633 --> 32:52.533 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% that wasn't really resonating when you were showing 32:52.533 --> 32:54.900 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% micrograms per liter and charts and stuff. 32:54.900 --> 32:58.833 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% It was this picture, the picture is in the book, 32:58.833 --> 33:02.433 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% of this severed lake and how different the two sides looked. 33:02.433 --> 33:05.433 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% And that brought us the Clean Water Act. 33:05.433 --> 33:08.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And that brought us a recovery of Lake Erie and other lakes 33:08.533 --> 33:10.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% to the point that the Clean Water Act came in 33:10.900 --> 33:14.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% in 1972 and by 1985, Dr. Seuss was pulling that line 33:14.666 --> 33:15.866 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% from The Lorax. 33:15.866 --> 33:18.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And people thought, "We've solved this problem." 33:18.166 --> 33:21.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And we did at that time for detergent. 33:21.600 --> 33:23.500 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5% But today, the problem's back. 33:23.500 --> 33:26.200 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% Lake Erie's as green as it's ever been in summer. 33:26.200 --> 33:27.500 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% - Norman: Yeah, and why now? 33:29.933 --> 33:31.700 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% - Dan: I think it's the cumulative toll 33:31.700 --> 33:34.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% of all the phosphorus we've been putting on the landscape. 33:34.266 --> 33:39.333 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5% I think it's our farms, our dairy farms, livestock. 33:39.333 --> 33:41.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They've got, the operations have gotten so big, 33:41.666 --> 33:43.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the concentrated animal feeding operations 33:43.633 --> 33:46.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% where you can now have a farm with 10,000 head of cattle 33:46.766 --> 33:48.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% when a hundred used to be big. 33:48.733 --> 33:50.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Those cows produce a lot of manure. 33:50.400 --> 33:52.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And as we were talking earlier about, you know, 33:52.866 --> 33:56.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the British using anything they could to manure their crops, 33:56.300 --> 33:57.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to fertilize their crops. 33:58.833 --> 34:02.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% This is having a horrible effect on lakes 34:02.266 --> 34:03.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and on Lake Erie in particular, 34:03.866 --> 34:06.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and on Lake Mendota here in Wisconsin. 34:07.233 --> 34:08.466 align:left position:40% line:71% size:50% Why now? 34:08.466 --> 34:10.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% I think it's the size of the farms. 34:10.166 --> 34:11.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% It's the cumulative toll. 34:11.500 --> 34:13.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And then there's some funky things going on 34:13.200 --> 34:14.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% in the ecology of these lakes. 34:14.633 --> 34:15.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And I'll say real quickly, 34:15.866 --> 34:17.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% 'cause this is getting into the weeds, literally. 34:17.933 --> 34:19.200 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% [Norman laughing] - Literally. 34:19.200 --> 34:20.600 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - But zebra mussels and quagga mussels, 34:20.600 --> 34:22.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% they'll eat anything in the water. 34:22.233 --> 34:23.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% They're filter feeders. 34:23.400 --> 34:24.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% They suck everything out. 34:24.566 --> 34:27.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so they're brainless, but they're smart enough 34:27.266 --> 34:30.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% not to eat toxic blue-green algae. 34:30.066 --> 34:32.966 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% So when you fertilize a lake with all this crop runoff 34:32.966 --> 34:36.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or manure waste, it creates an algal bloom. 34:36.933 --> 34:39.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And you know, in earlier times, 34:39.400 --> 34:41.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that would be an assemblage of a bunch of different species 34:41.600 --> 34:43.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and they wouldn't necessarily be toxic. 34:43.000 --> 34:46.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But now in too many places, when you have an algae outbreak, 34:46.466 --> 34:47.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% it's gonna be toxic 34:47.766 --> 34:49.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% because the mussels are selecting for it. 34:49.666 --> 34:51.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% They're taking away the competition. 34:51.500 --> 34:52.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So this blue-green algae, 34:52.833 --> 34:55.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% microcystis is a very common one, has no competition. 34:55.800 --> 35:00.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So when a lake blooms, it blooms a toxic bloom. 35:00.466 --> 35:02.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Was there then competition 35:02.100 --> 35:06.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% before we had the quagga mussels and zebra mussels, 35:06.333 --> 35:07.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that there were things 35:07.500 --> 35:09.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that were actually eating blue-green algae? 35:09.366 --> 35:10.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Well, it wasn't the case 35:10.566 --> 35:11.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% of things eating blue-green algae. 35:11.966 --> 35:13.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% It's blue-green algae having competition 35:13.866 --> 35:15.633 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% with other healthy algae species, 35:15.633 --> 35:18.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which makes up the bottom of the food chain, you know? 35:18.166 --> 35:20.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so this idea of Lake Erie being a dead sea, 35:20.633 --> 35:22.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it wasn't that it was lifeless. 35:22.233 --> 35:24.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% It was actually that it was too full of life. 35:24.400 --> 35:25.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% It was too full of algae. 35:25.966 --> 35:29.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And that this, in the 1960s, we're not talking microcystis, 35:29.400 --> 35:30.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% we're not talking blue-green algae. 35:30.666 --> 35:32.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% We're talking about all manner of algae. 35:32.333 --> 35:35.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Some, you know, we want, beneficial, some not. 35:35.166 --> 35:37.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% But it was, you know, a big assemblage. 35:37.433 --> 35:39.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But there was so much of it that 35:39.033 --> 35:40.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% when it would inevitably die and decay, 35:40.800 --> 35:44.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it would burn up so much oxygen in the water 35:44.133 --> 35:46.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that fish couldn't survive, hence the dead sea. 35:46.900 --> 35:49.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Fish and slugs were, I mean algae and slugs 35:49.533 --> 35:51.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% were about the only thing living in there. 35:51.866 --> 35:55.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Is there any kind of advantage to having 35:56.900 --> 35:59.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% a relatively small number of large farms 35:59.966 --> 36:02.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% as opposed to thousands of smaller ones 36:02.533 --> 36:05.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% in terms of getting reform? 36:05.300 --> 36:07.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Well, I think we're in the midway point 36:07.166 --> 36:08.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% of getting to that. 36:08.500 --> 36:12.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it's a fraught moment because, you know, 36:12.133 --> 36:14.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% with the size of the family farm back in the, 36:14.966 --> 36:18.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% you know, middle of the 20th century and before, 36:18.500 --> 36:23.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% the manure could be managed, and with today's sized farms, 36:23.566 --> 36:28.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% it really is difficult to, like, not overdose a body of water. 36:28.233 --> 36:32.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So I was mentioning that we got the Clean Water Act in 1972, 36:32.100 --> 36:35.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and that really went after, like, the detergent industries 36:35.133 --> 36:37.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and other industrial pollutants. 36:37.366 --> 36:40.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They were going after these chemical excrements 36:40.300 --> 36:43.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% by, you know, forcing industries to get permits 36:43.733 --> 36:45.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to discharge any amount of pollution. 36:45.700 --> 36:49.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So it really, it basically throttled what was coming 36:49.400 --> 36:50.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% outta smoke stacks and pipes. 36:50.900 --> 36:54.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But they left alone at the time, in 1972, agriculture. 36:54.466 --> 36:56.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Because agriculture was still being conducted 36:56.366 --> 36:57.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% on a different scale. 36:57.966 --> 37:01.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And it was also thought to be not nearly as big of a source 37:01.100 --> 37:06.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of phosphorus as the detergents and other chemical products. 37:06.800 --> 37:10.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So they thought, "We can plug a smoke stack, we can, you know, 37:10.833 --> 37:15.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% "cap a pipe, but we can't really squeegee a cornfield. 37:15.033 --> 37:18.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% "So that's, you know, that fruit isn't low-hanging enough. 37:18.466 --> 37:21.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% We need to get what we can get and see how we do." 37:21.666 --> 37:24.500 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And they did, and we did really well. 37:24.500 --> 37:25.966 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% But today, we're not doing so well. 37:25.966 --> 37:28.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So when you talk about is it better to have a bunch 37:28.366 --> 37:31.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of big farms as opposed to a bunch of little farms? 37:32.300 --> 37:34.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% In regulatory parlance, what they were calling this 37:34.266 --> 37:38.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% with the Clean Water Act was point source polluters, 37:38.666 --> 37:40.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that was industries. 37:40.133 --> 37:42.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And nonpoint source polluters, that was agriculture basically. 37:42.866 --> 37:44.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And runoff from urban areas. 37:44.900 --> 37:46.166 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Because they were more diffuse. 37:46.166 --> 37:47.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - More diffuse, yeah. 37:47.633 --> 37:50.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So now it could be argued 37:50.466 --> 37:53.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that these big farms are point sources. 37:53.733 --> 37:55.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% You go out to one of these farms 37:55.366 --> 37:57.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and you see the size of the manure lagoons 37:57.966 --> 38:01.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and the holding tanks, and you can't help but think, 38:01.400 --> 38:03.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% "Wow, that's a lot of potential pollution 38:03.166 --> 38:04.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that we need to deal with." 38:04.900 --> 38:06.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But it's not just pollution; 38:06.200 --> 38:08.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it's going back to where the English were 38:08.333 --> 38:10.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% at the beginning of this talk. 38:10.600 --> 38:13.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They would've looked at one of these manure lagoons, 38:13.133 --> 38:16.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% not as a bunch of yuck, but as a bunch of yum, you know. 38:16.133 --> 38:17.500 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% That's food. - Ultimately. 38:17.500 --> 38:20.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Yeah, and that's where we've gotta get back 38:20.166 --> 38:21.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to this circle of life. 38:21.333 --> 38:23.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% We've gotta engineer it now. 38:23.233 --> 38:25.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% It's not gonna be the natural cycle. 38:25.300 --> 38:28.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But what on earth isn't left in its natural cycle these days? 38:28.433 --> 38:30.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But we need to look at that manure, 38:30.333 --> 38:32.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% not as something that needs to be disposed of, 38:32.233 --> 38:34.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% but something that needs to be harvested. 38:34.800 --> 38:36.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it's already starting to happen in certain ways 38:36.900 --> 38:38.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and in certain places. 38:38.366 --> 38:41.000 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% There was a story about a year, year and a half ago 38:41.000 --> 38:43.433 align:left position:42.5% line:71% size:47.5% in the   Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 38:43.433 --> 38:46.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% about a farm that was about to start making more money 38:46.666 --> 38:49.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from the methane produced from anaerobic digesters 38:49.533 --> 38:52.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% that it installed to process the manure. 38:52.000 --> 38:54.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It was gonna make more money in manure and methane sales 38:54.633 --> 38:56.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% from its manure than from milk sales. 38:57.833 --> 39:01.100 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Yeah, milk is notoriously unprofitable. 39:01.100 --> 39:05.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - It is, and you know, we're gonna find that this manure 39:05.766 --> 39:08.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% can be more profitable if we try to strip 39:08.666 --> 39:10.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% not just the methane out of it, 39:10.166 --> 39:12.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but the nitrogen and the phosphorus. 39:12.133 --> 39:13.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And then you can do something with it. 39:13.766 --> 39:16.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Because right now, the problem is farmer, 39:16.700 --> 39:18.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% you know, farmers aren't getting rich. 39:18.933 --> 39:21.966 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And I don't mean to denigrate, disparage the industry that, 39:21.966 --> 39:23.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you know, is part of our culture 39:23.366 --> 39:26.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and part of my daily routine in that I eat every day. 39:26.933 --> 39:32.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But we need to get to the point where 39:32.333 --> 39:35.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% you can't just spread this wherever is convenient. 39:35.433 --> 39:38.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% We need to put this, put whatever nutrients 39:38.166 --> 39:40.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% are in this manure where it needs to be. 39:40.233 --> 39:42.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And you can only do that in a, you know, 39:42.900 --> 39:48.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% financially workable way by stripping it out 39:48.966 --> 39:52.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and breaking down these elements in this manure down, 39:52.533 --> 39:54.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% back down to their elemental form. 39:54.400 --> 39:57.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And then you can move it places and you can store it. 39:57.533 --> 39:58.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And then you don't have to worry 39:58.933 --> 40:02.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% about Florida's deposits playing out so quickly. 40:02.100 --> 40:04.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Everything that we, you know, get on the back end from a cow 40:04.733 --> 40:07.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% is gonna be, you know, reserves 40:07.033 --> 40:10.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that future generations can rely on from Florida 40:10.533 --> 40:12.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and from other dwindling deposits. 40:12.800 --> 40:14.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So it is gonna cost money. 40:14.800 --> 40:17.800 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% It is, but-- - But it's an investment. 40:17.800 --> 40:18.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - It's an investment. 40:18.966 --> 40:20.966 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And there are other costs that, you know, 40:20.966 --> 40:23.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% aren't necessarily on a balance sheet. 40:23.233 --> 40:26.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And I would say, here at the University of Wisconsin, 40:26.166 --> 40:28.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% we're not far from the student union, which is on the banks 40:28.633 --> 40:31.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of the shores of Lake Mendota, which is hit 40:31.466 --> 40:34.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% with these horrible algae outbreaks every summer. 40:34.333 --> 40:37.633 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And you know, there's a price there 40:37.633 --> 40:39.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that kids can't swim in the lake. 40:39.166 --> 40:43.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% You know, we did a talk down there back in late August 40:43.666 --> 40:46.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% with Charlie Berens and a couple of guys, 40:46.466 --> 40:48.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% a limnologist from UW. 40:48.033 --> 40:49.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - The quintessential Wisconsinite. 40:49.300 --> 40:51.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, I thought it might, you know, 40:51.000 --> 40:52.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% bring some awareness to the issue. 40:52.866 --> 40:54.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And behind us, it was August 31, 40:54.733 --> 40:56.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% I remember it was just a bluebird day. 40:56.733 --> 40:58.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It was 80 degrees, you know, 40:58.233 --> 41:01.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it was just the sailboats were gliding back and forth, 41:01.166 --> 41:04.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and all the kids who are fresh on campus from a summer break 41:04.800 --> 41:07.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% are down by the water, but they're not in the water. 41:07.000 --> 41:09.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% They're on the docks. 41:09.300 --> 41:11.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And you know, two days later, there were so many of 'em 41:11.833 --> 41:13.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% on the docks that one of 'em collapsed. 41:13.966 --> 41:17.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And, you know, that was lucky that nobody was hurt or killed 41:17.066 --> 41:18.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% because they easily could have been. 41:18.866 --> 41:21.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Just landing in the water, dangerous enough I guess. 41:21.166 --> 41:23.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, but they shouldn't have been on the dock. 41:23.233 --> 41:25.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They should have been able to swim in that water. 41:25.233 --> 41:27.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And that's where we gotta get to. 41:27.133 --> 41:30.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so I don't think that, you know, clean water, 41:30.633 --> 41:32.366 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% safe water, and food on the table 41:32.366 --> 41:34.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% are mutually exclusive enterprises. 41:34.266 --> 41:35.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And I don't think anybody thinks that. 41:35.666 --> 41:37.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But we're on a path right now 41:37.400 --> 41:39.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% where it's kind of, that is the case. 41:39.800 --> 41:44.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% What can we do to keep farmers making food and in business 41:44.700 --> 41:46.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and to keep our waters safe? 41:46.800 --> 41:48.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Because this isn't just, 41:48.466 --> 41:50.966 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it's not just a matter of this guy going into the water 41:50.966 --> 41:52.466 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and he was vomiting. 41:52.466 --> 41:55.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But it's a liver toxin, and there's emerging evidence 41:55.166 --> 41:56.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that it's a neurotoxin. 41:56.500 --> 41:59.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And there's been some studies, and this is dicey area, 41:59.233 --> 42:02.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% a dicey area because there's been no causation established, 42:02.300 --> 42:03.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but there is correlation between people 42:03.966 --> 42:06.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% who live by these heavily infested lakes 42:06.700 --> 42:09.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and neurodegenerative diseases like ALS. 42:09.666 --> 42:12.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And the idea is you don't even need 42:12.433 --> 42:13.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to swim in this water. 42:13.600 --> 42:15.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% You don't need to drink the water. 42:15.000 --> 42:16.400 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% It aerosolizes. - Just breathe it. 42:16.400 --> 42:17.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - You breathe it in. 42:17.800 --> 42:21.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So this is serious stuff that is addressable, 42:21.200 --> 42:24.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% but so far, we have not yet gotten on that. 42:24.400 --> 42:26.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - Well, you mentioned this idea of separating out 42:26.433 --> 42:28.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% the components of the manure, 42:28.233 --> 42:32.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% for example, methane, what's the market for methane? 42:32.800 --> 42:35.500 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - I mean, it's natural gas. 42:35.500 --> 42:36.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% There's a big market for it. 42:36.800 --> 42:39.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% You know, the reason why this guy, this Wisconsin guy, 42:39.833 --> 42:42.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% was making so much money was because California's, 42:42.533 --> 42:44.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% I believe it's their alternative fuel mandate, 42:45.966 --> 42:48.033 align:left position:40% line:71% size:50% you know, requires renewable energy. 42:48.033 --> 42:49.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So they're buying credits out in California 42:49.966 --> 42:53.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% for this methane that just goes into the grid 42:53.133 --> 42:54.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and it's being used. 42:54.533 --> 42:57.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But you know, this brings to mind another issue 42:57.166 --> 42:59.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% with how we go forward in a safe way. 42:59.566 --> 43:01.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And that is, once you start talking about methane, 43:01.833 --> 43:03.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% you start thinking about fuel. 43:03.333 --> 43:05.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Once you're thinking about fuel, if you're in the Midwest, 43:05.833 --> 43:07.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you think about ethanol. 43:07.133 --> 43:10.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so, ethanol is a big piece of this puzzle, 43:10.733 --> 43:14.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and it's not being addressed adequately right now. 43:14.166 --> 43:17.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% 40% of the corn that we grow in the United States-- 43:17.166 --> 43:20.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Is grown for ethanol now? - Is grown for ethanol. 43:20.133 --> 43:22.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - And of course, that doesn't count worldwide 43:22.366 --> 43:25.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the forests that are taken out to grow the corn-- 43:25.500 --> 43:27.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Yeah, or soy. - For ethanol. 43:27.300 --> 43:28.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Yeah, or sugar cane. 43:28.733 --> 43:32.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Yeah, I mean, ethanol is intuitively, 43:32.733 --> 43:34.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% from my perspective, a great idea, 43:34.400 --> 43:38.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but in practice, the only people who are happy with it 43:38.466 --> 43:42.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% are, like, growing corn or processing corn for fuel. 43:42.366 --> 43:47.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% You know, it's an energy source that really hasn't proven 43:47.333 --> 43:49.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to be the environmental or economic boon 43:49.866 --> 43:51.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that people thought it was gonna be 43:51.900 --> 43:54.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% back when we passed the renewable fuel, 43:54.433 --> 43:55.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% whatever it's called. 43:55.700 --> 43:59.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% The ethanol mandate in the mid-1990s. 43:59.033 --> 44:01.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - How does the balance sheet look for ethanol then? 44:01.533 --> 44:04.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I mean, what are we getting out of it 44:04.666 --> 44:07.000 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and what all is it costing us in the long run? 44:07.000 --> 44:08.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Well, there's been a lot of studies 44:08.600 --> 44:11.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that it's just a net loser in any way you look at it. 44:11.200 --> 44:13.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I mean, it takes a lot of land. 44:13.466 --> 44:15.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I think there's 16 million acres of land 44:15.800 --> 44:18.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that's gone into production since the ethanol mandate. 44:18.333 --> 44:20.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And how big is that? 44:20.266 --> 44:21.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% I don't know. 44:21.533 --> 44:24.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% I mean, Yellowstone National Park is, I don't know, 44:24.166 --> 44:26.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it's 16 million acres is a lot. 44:26.233 --> 44:29.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% I think Yellowstone National Park is 2.1 million acres. 44:29.866 --> 44:31.233 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Okay, so... - It's big. 44:31.233 --> 44:32.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Several Yellowstones. 44:32.533 --> 44:36.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Yeah, there's a lot of land growing corn 44:36.533 --> 44:38.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to put fuel in our tanks at the same time 44:38.533 --> 44:40.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that people all around the world are having 44:40.200 --> 44:42.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% a hard time putting food in their stomachs. 44:42.600 --> 44:46.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So the drag on ethanol is the land, 44:46.200 --> 44:48.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% it's the fuel it takes to plant it, 44:48.066 --> 44:52.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and it's the fuel it takes to make the fertilizers 44:52.200 --> 44:53.966 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and it's the fertilizers themselves. 44:53.966 --> 44:57.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And it's not just phosphorous that's problematic for this, 44:57.266 --> 44:58.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% it's nitrogen as well. 44:58.600 --> 45:01.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And you know, you see a lot of stories coming out of Iowa 45:01.833 --> 45:05.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in recent months about just water contamination 45:05.266 --> 45:08.566 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and, you know, groundwater contamination. 45:08.566 --> 45:10.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And, you know, it's largely, 45:10.800 --> 45:13.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% it's not exclusively by any means driven by ethanol, 45:13.833 --> 45:16.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% but that's a big part of the problem. 45:16.566 --> 45:19.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And that problem doesn't stay contained to Iowa. 45:19.533 --> 45:23.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% You know, in this book, I take a trip down the Mississippi, 45:23.466 --> 45:25.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% I go to the Iowa State Fair. 45:26.333 --> 45:27.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Well, I was here actually. 45:27.666 --> 45:30.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% I was over at the Department of Limnology 45:30.533 --> 45:34.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on an August day in 2019. 45:34.366 --> 45:37.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I was talking to the scientists over there 45:37.566 --> 45:39.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% about, you know, how do we fix this lake? 45:39.366 --> 45:41.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I was talking to some of the student researchers, 45:41.366 --> 45:43.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and they, one grew up in Madison and said that it was, 45:43.766 --> 45:45.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% you know, just tragic to go to the beach 45:45.566 --> 45:48.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that she went to as a kid and she can't swim in it. 45:48.166 --> 45:50.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And so I thought, well, let's follow this, you know, 45:50.433 --> 45:52.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% the source of this problem. 45:52.000 --> 45:57.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so I drove over to Iowa, and that was during the beginning 45:57.200 --> 45:58.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of the presidential campaign. 45:58.400 --> 46:01.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And this is a tricky situation. 46:01.733 --> 46:03.866 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% If you wanna be President of the United States, 46:03.866 --> 46:07.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% at least in 2019, you basically had to pledge allegiance 46:07.400 --> 46:09.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% to ethanol because you have to do well in Iowa, 46:09.400 --> 46:11.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and you're not gonna do well in Iowa 46:11.000 --> 46:12.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% unless you support the renewable fuel mandate. 46:12.933 --> 46:15.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - And this was 2019? 46:15.766 --> 46:19.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - 2019, so it's a political poison pill to take 46:19.733 --> 46:21.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% if you go into Iowa and say-- 46:21.166 --> 46:23.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - One would think. - "I don't support ethanol." 46:23.233 --> 46:26.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% But so, and I didn't literally drive down the Mississippi, 46:26.733 --> 46:31.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% but from Iowa, I went down to New Orleans 46:31.266 --> 46:35.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% because 2019, it might have been saddled 2019/2020, 46:35.800 --> 46:37.400 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% but there was a 12-month period in there 46:37.400 --> 46:38.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% that it was the wettest on record 46:38.800 --> 46:40.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% in the Mississippi River Basin. 46:40.433 --> 46:42.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so we flushed a lot of stuff 46:42.433 --> 46:46.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from up here down there, including nutrients. 46:46.600 --> 46:50.066 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so the Gulf of Mexico has a famous dead zone as well today. 46:50.066 --> 46:51.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% That's because it's salt water, 46:51.866 --> 46:54.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% that's largely driven by nitrogen. 46:54.266 --> 46:57.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% One of the, you know, there's three main properties 46:57.100 --> 47:00.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to fertilizer: nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus. 47:00.366 --> 47:02.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Nitrogen's a problem in salt water. 47:02.500 --> 47:04.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% It's usually not a problem on the coasts. 47:04.600 --> 47:08.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But in 2019, so much water went down the Mississippi, 47:08.400 --> 47:11.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% so much waste, nutrient waste, 47:11.833 --> 47:15.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that the Gulf Coast of Mississippi, 47:15.200 --> 47:17.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% it's like some 40 miles of Gulf Coast that they have. 47:17.900 --> 47:20.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Every beach was closed because of phosphorus 47:20.733 --> 47:23.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% because the water was so fresh along the coast, 47:23.300 --> 47:26.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% relatively fresh, that it could harbor 47:26.566 --> 47:28.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% this freshwater algae, this microcystis 47:28.466 --> 47:29.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that we've been talking about. 47:29.633 --> 47:31.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% This blue-green algae. 47:31.066 --> 47:35.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so you have, I was talking, like, to this guy who bought, 47:35.833 --> 47:40.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% like, a fleet of 20 or 30 jet skis to rent for the holiday, 47:40.133 --> 47:42.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% the holiday season being July and August 47:42.333 --> 47:43.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% down in Mississippi. 47:43.600 --> 47:45.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% 'Cause if you've ever been down there in the summer, 47:45.600 --> 47:46.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% you wanna be in the water. 47:46.800 --> 47:47.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And every beach was closed. 47:47.966 --> 47:49.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And this guy was packing up his jet skis 47:49.766 --> 47:52.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and selling 'em in Georgia 'cause he had bills to pay. 47:52.833 --> 47:54.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And he said something I found very resonant, 47:54.933 --> 47:58.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and he was like, "Why am I being regulated out of business 47:58.700 --> 48:00.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% "when the source of the problem 48:00.100 --> 48:02.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% "up the Mississippi River is under-regulated? 48:02.700 --> 48:04.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% It doesn't make any sense." 48:04.133 --> 48:07.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - And you don't, I guess, hear a lot about the source upriver 48:07.666 --> 48:08.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% from these problems. 48:08.900 --> 48:10.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - They're talking about it now down there. 48:10.833 --> 48:12.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But yeah, we tend not to 48:12.800 --> 48:16.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% because it's, you know, it flows away from us. 48:16.266 --> 48:19.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - But you would need presumably some kind 48:19.766 --> 48:22.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of federal regulation because what's in it for Iowa-- 48:22.900 --> 48:25.733 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% - Exactly. - Or Minnesota or Illinois. 48:25.733 --> 48:27.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - And manure's driving a lot of this too. 48:27.533 --> 48:29.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And you know, the manure and the ethanol, 48:29.333 --> 48:34.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% those are two pieces of fruit that we could probably pluck. 48:34.166 --> 48:36.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And by that, I mean we could manage them better. 48:36.300 --> 48:40.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And again, we need food, we need farmers farming, 48:40.066 --> 48:43.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but we also need to take care of the waters 48:43.933 --> 48:45.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% that our lives collectively depend on. 48:45.833 --> 48:47.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Is the problem then mainly phosphorus? 48:48.933 --> 48:50.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - For fresh waters, it's phosphorus. 48:50.933 --> 48:53.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% For salt water, it's nitrogen. 48:53.266 --> 48:56.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And then for groundwater with, like, nitrate, you know, 48:56.700 --> 48:58.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% you hear about wells going bad. - Norman: Yes. 48:58.800 --> 49:01.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - That's obviously nitrogen, but that's still manure. 49:01.500 --> 49:03.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so you solve that nitrogen problem, 49:03.333 --> 49:05.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% you can solve the phosphorus problem as well. 49:05.433 --> 49:07.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - Well, is there a way somehow of extracting the phosphorus 49:07.900 --> 49:11.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and the nitrogen from the whole bovine process? 49:11.866 --> 49:14.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Yes, but I can't tell you how. [laughing] 49:14.100 --> 49:16.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - But it can be done. - It can be done, yeah. 49:16.733 --> 49:18.933 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And you know, it can be every bit, 49:18.933 --> 49:21.666 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% you can get food grade phosphorus. 49:21.666 --> 49:24.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% 'Cause phosphorus does go into, like, phosphates, 49:24.033 --> 49:26.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% you know, like the soda drinks. 49:26.833 --> 49:29.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I mean, it is used, phosphorus is used in a lot 49:29.700 --> 49:31.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of different products. 49:31.400 --> 49:35.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So Hamburg, Germany, okay, we started in Hamburg, Germany, 49:35.033 --> 49:37.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and let's go back to Hamburg, Germany. 49:38.433 --> 49:42.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% In 2022, on the banks of the Elbe River, 49:42.833 --> 49:44.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% where there's been people, 49:44.133 --> 49:47.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I talked to a woman who picked up a nugget 49:47.133 --> 49:49.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on the Elbe River as well and it exploded. 49:49.266 --> 49:53.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% A nugget of phosphorus on the banks of that same river. 49:53.400 --> 49:56.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It's not the entire EU, but I think it's more than Germany. 49:56.733 --> 49:58.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But anyway, in Germany, they're requiring 49:58.666 --> 50:04.000 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that phosphorus levels in their human sewage be brought down 50:04.000 --> 50:05.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% to basically, you can never get to zero, 50:05.733 --> 50:09.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but as close to zero as technology will allow by 2029. 50:09.600 --> 50:12.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% So they've built this state-of-the-art 50:12.600 --> 50:15.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% wastewater treatment plant, like two miles from where 50:15.033 --> 50:17.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% this guy discovered phosphorus in 1669. 50:17.733 --> 50:18.900 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% It's crazy. 50:18.900 --> 50:21.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And right where the city was burned to the ground 50:21.133 --> 50:24.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% by phosphorus, now they called it "phosphorus coming home." 50:24.733 --> 50:26.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% You know, they're gonna harvest the phosphorus 50:26.900 --> 50:28.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from their waste stream. 50:28.500 --> 50:30.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% It could be turned into phosphoric acid 50:30.533 --> 50:34.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% that could find its way into food products. 50:34.933 --> 50:37.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% It's never gonna just for political reasons, 50:37.433 --> 50:39.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but it will be fertilizer grade 50:39.800 --> 50:41.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and they will be able to grow crops with that. 50:41.900 --> 50:44.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that will preserve, you know, 50:44.000 --> 50:45.633 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% whatever deposits they're depending on 50:45.633 --> 50:47.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in future generations. 50:47.266 --> 50:48.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And that's just the start. 50:48.433 --> 50:51.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% I mean, if it really takes off there, 50:51.600 --> 50:53.600 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% it should take off everywhere else. 50:55.033 --> 50:58.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - I can't resist a kind of a little appendix here though, 50:58.900 --> 51:02.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% because you mentioned in your book Lake Okeechobee. 51:02.800 --> 51:06.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And a huge lake, you know, in Florida 51:06.333 --> 51:10.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and a bone of contention between, 51:10.866 --> 51:13.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% well, the Army Corps of Engineers, 51:13.533 --> 51:16.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% at least previous governors of Florida, 51:16.233 --> 51:18.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and then, of course, the people caught in between. 51:19.766 --> 51:21.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, you know, that's a real, 51:21.366 --> 51:23.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% there's a chapter on this in the book, 51:23.533 --> 51:25.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and it's a real good illustration 51:25.000 --> 51:26.933 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of how sticky this problem can be. 51:26.933 --> 51:29.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So Lake Okeechobee in the middle of the state, 51:29.000 --> 51:31.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% it's really like the wellspring of the Everglades. 51:31.400 --> 51:34.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And historically, it was just a big swamp, you know, 51:34.266 --> 51:36.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the whole interior of the state. 51:36.500 --> 51:40.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so these flood waters would laze on the flat landscape 51:40.166 --> 51:42.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and just kind of drift their way down the peninsula 51:42.566 --> 51:46.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and through the Everglades and out to the Gulf of Mexico, 51:46.433 --> 51:48.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% or the tip of Florida. 51:48.166 --> 51:51.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I don't know if that's Atlantic Ocean or Gulf of Mexico, 51:51.333 --> 51:54.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but that's the way things worked in their natural state. 51:54.000 --> 51:56.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But we don't leave things alone, particularly in Florida, 51:56.700 --> 51:58.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% at least in their natural state. 51:58.466 --> 52:02.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so we figured we could farm this swampy land. 52:02.000 --> 52:05.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So that required basically building up the lake 52:05.233 --> 52:08.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% so it didn't chronically flood south toward the Everglades. 52:08.633 --> 52:10.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% So you've got this artificial berm around the lake, 52:10.933 --> 52:12.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and it's a berm that was not constructed 52:12.800 --> 52:15.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% with any kind of modern engineering in mind. 52:15.666 --> 52:18.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And this was in the '30s and '40s and '50s. 52:18.266 --> 52:21.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So this lake is in danger of bursting through its banks 52:21.666 --> 52:23.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and flooding downstream. 52:23.500 --> 52:24.766 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% To keep that from happening, 52:24.766 --> 52:26.733 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% to keep the water from getting too high 52:26.733 --> 52:29.233 align:left position:37.5% line:5% size:52.5% on the berm surrounding the lake, 52:29.233 --> 52:31.600 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Florida sends that water down canals 52:31.600 --> 52:33.666 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% to the Atlantic coast near Stewart, Florida 52:33.666 --> 52:36.933 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% and to the Gulf Coast near Fort Myers. 52:36.933 --> 52:40.633 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% And those flows are not just water; it's this green sludge 52:40.633 --> 52:43.266 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% because all the farm waste is going into the lake. 52:43.266 --> 52:45.000 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% That lake is about nine feet deep 52:45.000 --> 52:46.633 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% and 30 miles in diameter. 52:46.633 --> 52:48.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yeah, a huge lake, but very shallow. 52:48.233 --> 52:50.166 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Very shallow and warm as a hot tub. 52:50.166 --> 52:53.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so that's just a, it's basically like a big incubator 52:53.400 --> 52:55.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% for blue-green algae. 52:55.000 --> 52:57.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So you've got these people who really wouldn't be concerned. 52:57.866 --> 53:00.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I don't wanna make too big of a generalization, 53:00.200 --> 53:03.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% but you'd have people on the Florida, on the Atlantic coast 53:03.800 --> 53:06.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% who wouldn't necessarily wear the badge 53:06.800 --> 53:08.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% of environmentalists, but they care what's going on 53:08.800 --> 53:10.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in that state because, or in that lake 53:10.833 --> 53:15.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because that lake water, you know, toxic as it is, 53:15.333 --> 53:17.233 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% is being sent to their beach towns. 53:17.233 --> 53:21.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so they get beach closures because of, you know, 53:21.033 --> 53:23.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% regulatory failure upstream. 53:23.300 --> 53:25.500 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And this is all, you know, we can push it off 53:25.500 --> 53:27.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and just, like, kick, 53:27.266 --> 53:30.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% I don't know if kick the can is the analogy I want to use. 53:30.066 --> 53:32.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% We could float the boat down the canal for a while, 53:32.433 --> 53:35.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% but we've gotta clean up our act. 53:35.300 --> 53:37.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - It will come home to roost no matter where you are, 53:37.700 --> 53:38.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% sooner or later. - It will. 53:38.900 --> 53:40.066 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% Yeah, it will. 53:41.066 --> 53:44.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Well, Dan Egan, thank you for just scratching the surface 53:44.366 --> 53:47.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in this phenomenon of the devil's element, 53:47.666 --> 53:51.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but it's also something that we can't live without. 53:51.933 --> 53:53.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Exactly, and we're gonna have to learn 53:53.666 --> 53:55.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to live smarter with it though. 53:56.966 --> 53:58.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - I'm Norman Gilliland, 53:58.233 --> 54:01.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and I hope you can join me the next time around 54:01.233 --> 54:03.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% for University Place Presents.