1 00:00:02,433 --> 00:00:04,300 - Welcome to University Place Presents. 2 00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:05,900 I'm Norman Gilliland. 3 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,433 His life story reads like a novel by Alexander Dumas: 4 00:00:09,433 --> 00:00:12,833 born into slavery, disguised, escaped, 5 00:00:12,833 --> 00:00:15,433 looking over his shoulder all the while, 6 00:00:15,433 --> 00:00:17,300 fearing that he might be recaptured 7 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:19,800 and sold back into bondage. 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,466 Becoming an orator 9 00:00:21,466 --> 00:00:24,333 and one of the great voices for freedom in this country 10 00:00:24,333 --> 00:00:26,500 during one of its pivotal moments. 11 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:29,066 Rose to the highest levels of recognition, 12 00:00:29,066 --> 00:00:32,400 met with the President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln, 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,033 and went on to live a long 14 00:00:34,033 --> 00:00:37,166 and fruitful life as a voice of freedom. 15 00:00:37,166 --> 00:00:38,466 His name, Frederick Douglass, 16 00:00:38,466 --> 00:00:41,866 and he's the subject of a book by my guest, Greg Lampe, 17 00:00:41,866 --> 00:00:43,466 who is a former provost 18 00:00:43,466 --> 00:00:45,666 of the University of Wisconsin Colleges, 19 00:00:45,666 --> 00:00:49,300 and author of Frederick Douglass: Freedom's Voice. 20 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:51,033 Welcome to University Place Presents. 21 00:00:51,033 --> 00:00:52,833 - Greg: Yeah, thank you, nice to be here. 22 00:00:54,033 --> 00:00:56,233 - We know a lot about Frederick Douglass 23 00:00:56,233 --> 00:01:01,066 because Frederick Douglass wrote a lot about himself. 24 00:01:01,066 --> 00:01:02,966 Three autobiographies? 25 00:01:02,966 --> 00:01:04,400 - Correct, yeah. 26 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,100 - And what does he tell us in these? 27 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:10,933 Do they compare, the facts line up from one to the next? 28 00:01:10,933 --> 00:01:15,800 - Yeah, overall, yes, the facts line up. 29 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,200 What's interesting about looking at the autobiographies 30 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,600 is that they take place in different periods of time. 31 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,166 So the first autobiography was written in 1845, 32 00:01:28,166 --> 00:01:30,833 just years after Douglass had escaped from slavery 33 00:01:30,833 --> 00:01:34,500 and was a fugitive for seven years or so. 34 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:37,166 And he was writing about primarily 35 00:01:37,166 --> 00:01:39,533 that period, obviously. 36 00:01:39,533 --> 00:01:41,133 So he talked a lot about 37 00:01:41,133 --> 00:01:45,133 where he was born on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, 38 00:01:45,133 --> 00:01:47,033 who had enslaved him, 39 00:01:47,033 --> 00:01:52,433 and actually disclosed the names of the plantation owners 40 00:01:52,433 --> 00:01:54,233 and the overseers. 41 00:01:54,233 --> 00:01:56,900 And that was pretty risky considering his fugitive status, 42 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:58,233 which we can talk about. 43 00:01:58,233 --> 00:02:02,433 His second autobiography was written in 1855, 44 00:02:02,433 --> 00:02:05,366 and in that autobiography, he details more. 45 00:02:05,366 --> 00:02:11,300 He still recaptures all the details of his enslavement, 46 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:13,733 but then he also details his life 47 00:02:13,733 --> 00:02:15,966 as a abolitionist orator 48 00:02:15,966 --> 00:02:20,900 and his frustrations with the lack of progress 49 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:26,800 for emancipating the slaves and moving the country forward. 50 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,366 And then his last autobiography, 51 00:02:28,366 --> 00:02:31,333 which took on two different versions, 52 00:02:32,433 --> 00:02:35,066 about five to six years apart, 53 00:02:35,066 --> 00:02:42,833 really detail his entire life from 1818 to 1893 or so. 54 00:02:42,833 --> 00:02:46,300 And then he died, of course, in 1895. 55 00:02:46,300 --> 00:02:50,833 In there, he discloses how he escaped from slavery 56 00:02:50,833 --> 00:02:54,433 and his stances about women's suffrage, 57 00:02:54,433 --> 00:02:58,100 and particularly his work against lynchings at the time 58 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:00,233 because that had become a real issue 59 00:03:00,233 --> 00:03:03,533 following the Reconstruction period. 60 00:03:03,533 --> 00:03:08,133 So he did evolve his... 61 00:03:08,133 --> 00:03:09,533 How I wanna put this? 62 00:03:09,533 --> 00:03:13,866 His story in his autobiographies evolved as he evolved, 63 00:03:14,866 --> 00:03:17,233 and became more nuanced, 64 00:03:17,233 --> 00:03:19,666 and at times, a little more impatient. 65 00:03:19,666 --> 00:03:21,333 And also always an eye, 66 00:03:21,333 --> 00:03:23,200 as it was the tradition in 19th century, 67 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,633 an eye toward his legacy, which he was very sensitive about, 68 00:03:27,633 --> 00:03:30,800 and wanted to create sort of the image 69 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,266 of this heroic figure, which obviously he still is today. 70 00:03:35,266 --> 00:03:38,766 So it worked, and he was heroic in many, many ways. 71 00:03:38,766 --> 00:03:41,333 - How much did he know about his own origins? 72 00:03:41,333 --> 00:03:42,733 - He didn't know a lot. 73 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:48,933 He was born on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. 74 00:03:48,933 --> 00:03:50,900 He never knew his birth date. 75 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:55,333 He estimated it to be around 1817, 76 00:03:55,333 --> 00:03:56,933 and he guessed it was February 77 00:03:56,933 --> 00:03:59,366 because the last time he saw his mother, 78 00:03:59,366 --> 00:04:01,133 'cause he had been separated from his mother, 79 00:04:01,133 --> 00:04:04,433 which was a practice during slavery. 80 00:04:05,433 --> 00:04:09,200 He was born to an enslaved mother and so he was a slave, 81 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,733 but the last visit he had with his mother was in February 82 00:04:12,733 --> 00:04:14,500 when he was about seven years old. 83 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:18,200 And she had brought him cake, 84 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,000 and it was the last time he saw her. 85 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,633 And so he determined, 86 00:04:21,633 --> 00:04:25,433 "I must have been born in February of 1817." 87 00:04:25,433 --> 00:04:29,300 Later on, scholars would say he was close. 88 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:32,500 He was actually born in February 1818. 89 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:34,066 And so he knew his mother. 90 00:04:34,066 --> 00:04:36,066 He didn't know who his father was. 91 00:04:36,066 --> 00:04:39,033 In his autobiographies, this is an interesting shift, 92 00:04:39,033 --> 00:04:42,200 or early on, he said, well, he had heard rumors 93 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,133 that his father was his master, Aaron Anthony. 94 00:04:47,133 --> 00:04:50,233 Over time, he distanced himself from that 95 00:04:50,233 --> 00:04:54,200 to it could be a white man in 1855. 96 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,533 And then, well, he didn't hardly mention it 97 00:04:57,533 --> 00:04:59,600 in the last autobiography. 98 00:05:00,833 --> 00:05:03,600 So yeah, so his origins were on the Eastern Shore. 99 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,800 And the Eastern Shore, 100 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,600 what's important to note about that is 101 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,633 it was an area rich in slavery. 102 00:05:09,633 --> 00:05:14,633 And Douglass's family, his clan, had been on the Eastern Shore 103 00:05:14,633 --> 00:05:17,466 for over 100 years before he was born. 104 00:05:17,466 --> 00:05:21,600 So the Bailey clan had very deep roots, 105 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,633 literally and figuratively in the Eastern Shore. 106 00:05:24,633 --> 00:05:26,966 - And the name Bailey, he took from-- 107 00:05:26,966 --> 00:05:28,333 - From the clan. 108 00:05:28,333 --> 00:05:30,500 - The clan. - Yeah, from his clan. 109 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:34,233 - And what were his earliest memories then 110 00:05:34,233 --> 00:05:39,033 of being a slave and what he did as a slave 111 00:05:39,033 --> 00:05:41,666 on this plantation on the Eastern Shore of Maryland? 112 00:05:41,666 --> 00:05:44,866 - His earliest memories are living in a cabin 113 00:05:44,866 --> 00:05:51,366 with about 20 other siblings and cousins at a cabin 114 00:05:51,366 --> 00:05:54,800 where his grandmother was the one in charge, 115 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,200 his Grandma Bailey, 116 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,833 who he writes about very lovingly in his autobiography. 117 00:05:59,833 --> 00:06:02,833 She was a fisherperson by trade, 118 00:06:02,833 --> 00:06:06,633 and she was charged with taking care of the younger... 119 00:06:06,633 --> 00:06:10,833 The newly-born children into slavery. 120 00:06:10,833 --> 00:06:13,666 He was there for about seven years. 121 00:06:13,666 --> 00:06:15,633 And then in that time, 122 00:06:15,633 --> 00:06:18,400 he didn't even know he was a slave. 123 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,266 He had a happy childhood there. 124 00:06:20,266 --> 00:06:22,533 And he recalls that with great fondness. 125 00:06:22,533 --> 00:06:24,533 Then at seven years old, 126 00:06:24,533 --> 00:06:28,000 he's moved to the Lloyd plantation, 127 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,300 which is a large enterprise. 128 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:32,466 Hundreds of slaves-- - Still in Maryland. 129 00:06:32,466 --> 00:06:35,933 - Still in Maryland, still on the Eastern Shore. 130 00:06:35,933 --> 00:06:39,766 And so he is exposed for the first time 131 00:06:39,766 --> 00:06:44,133 to the whole notion of slavery, a traumatic, of course, 132 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:45,666 departure from his grandmother, 133 00:06:45,666 --> 00:06:48,633 who leaves him at the plantation. 134 00:06:48,633 --> 00:06:54,033 And there, he witnesses the brutality of slavery, 135 00:06:54,033 --> 00:06:57,666 which he recalls, of course, later on in his speeches, 136 00:06:57,666 --> 00:06:59,266 his anti-slavery speeches. 137 00:06:59,266 --> 00:07:02,233 He also experiences hunger for the first time 138 00:07:02,233 --> 00:07:05,800 'cause he wasn't always the obedient person. 139 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,100 He was from the beginning had his very independent 140 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:11,400 and strong-willed, which doesn't surprise anyone 141 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,100 who's read about Douglass. 142 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:16,466 And he experiences mostly hunger and cold 143 00:07:16,466 --> 00:07:18,166 during that period. 144 00:07:18,166 --> 00:07:22,600 But he's also brought into the home of the Lloyds 145 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,900 and allowed to be what is sometimes called a house slave. 146 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:29,633 And I think in that environment, 147 00:07:29,633 --> 00:07:34,366 he hears a lot of white people talking about different issues. 148 00:07:34,366 --> 00:07:38,766 And so he doesn't develop this plantation, Southern, 149 00:07:38,766 --> 00:07:42,733 strong Southern drawl or accent, dialect 150 00:07:42,733 --> 00:07:44,900 because one of the things that follows him 151 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:48,833 onto the stage when he gets up to speak is that, wow, 152 00:07:48,833 --> 00:07:50,900 he doesn't sound like a slave. 153 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:52,233 He's way too articulate. 154 00:07:52,233 --> 00:07:54,866 He's way too polished. 155 00:07:54,866 --> 00:07:56,133 - He doesn't have the accent. 156 00:07:56,133 --> 00:07:58,366 - Doesn't have the accent. 157 00:07:58,366 --> 00:08:02,166 But anyway, that's his first seven years is spent there. 158 00:08:02,166 --> 00:08:04,400 And then as he grows a little bit older, 159 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:10,066 he's sent by his slave overseer, Aaron Anthony, 160 00:08:10,066 --> 00:08:14,633 to Baltimore to live with a brother-in-law. 161 00:08:14,633 --> 00:08:18,133 That was a huge move for Douglass. 162 00:08:18,133 --> 00:08:20,866 - For the better? - For the better, absolutely. 163 00:08:20,866 --> 00:08:25,800 Away from the plantation with all its ugliness 164 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,766 in terms of how people were... 165 00:08:27,766 --> 00:08:30,900 How enslaved people were treated to Baltimore, Maryland, 166 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:34,000 where in Baltimore, there's a large free Black... 167 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,866 Well, not free, there's a large free Black population. 168 00:08:36,866 --> 00:08:41,266 There's also a pretty large enslaved population. 169 00:08:41,266 --> 00:08:44,333 And his primary role in Baltimore, 170 00:08:44,333 --> 00:08:46,833 at least initially, was to be a friend 171 00:08:46,833 --> 00:08:54,333 and brother to the son of Sophia and the Aulds. 172 00:08:54,333 --> 00:08:59,600 And so Tommy was the boy's name, and he befriended Tommy, 173 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,400 and he basically hung out with him 174 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,400 and was a companion. 175 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:09,233 And so Hugh and Sophia treated him not like a son, 176 00:09:09,233 --> 00:09:15,233 but he had all the comforts of a home and enjoyed that. 177 00:09:15,233 --> 00:09:18,466 - So at the age of seven or so, he was just a companion 178 00:09:18,466 --> 00:09:21,533 to his master's son in Baltimore. 179 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:22,700 - Right. 180 00:09:22,700 --> 00:09:23,966 - Sounds great. - Yeah. 181 00:09:23,966 --> 00:09:26,200 And then at the age of 12, as again, 182 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,666 he continues to evolve and get increasingly restless, 183 00:09:30,666 --> 00:09:32,766 as you can imagine, a 12-year-old would. 184 00:09:33,933 --> 00:09:36,700 And Tommy's in school and being educated, 185 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:40,233 and his question was, "Well, why am I not being educated? 186 00:09:40,233 --> 00:09:43,666 Everybody around me is being educated." 187 00:09:43,666 --> 00:09:49,166 And so in the evening when Sophia would be reading 188 00:09:49,166 --> 00:09:52,366 from the Bible or a book to her son, 189 00:09:52,366 --> 00:09:55,366 he would sit and listen to her read. 190 00:09:55,366 --> 00:09:58,833 And finally he asked her, "Could you please teach me to read?" 191 00:09:58,833 --> 00:10:02,300 And she did, which at the time was a risk 192 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:06,066 because enslaved people were not supposed to learn to read. 193 00:10:06,066 --> 00:10:07,433 - There were, I believe, 194 00:10:07,433 --> 00:10:09,766 some laws against it in some states. 195 00:10:09,766 --> 00:10:12,000 - Yeah, and Baltimore was among those, 196 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,233 Maryland was among those, 197 00:10:13,233 --> 00:10:16,066 and so at great risk, she taught him to... 198 00:10:16,066 --> 00:10:17,233 Started teaching him to read 199 00:10:17,233 --> 00:10:20,600 until Hugh Auld, her husband, found out 200 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,966 and then it ended abruptly. 201 00:10:23,966 --> 00:10:26,233 But the foundation had been laid. 202 00:10:27,233 --> 00:10:29,066 - And of course, her husband was concerned, 203 00:10:29,066 --> 00:10:34,233 as everyone was with these laws, that teaching a slave to read 204 00:10:34,233 --> 00:10:38,766 would then encourage that slave to freedom, seek freedom. 205 00:10:38,766 --> 00:10:41,766 - Exactly, and that's true for Douglass especially. 206 00:10:41,766 --> 00:10:47,166 Early on, he realized that this was pretty freeing. 207 00:10:47,166 --> 00:10:49,466 The other thing that he found really important 208 00:10:49,466 --> 00:10:56,566 during this period was his master's wife, Sophia, 209 00:10:56,566 --> 00:10:58,633 would also read from the Bible, 210 00:10:58,633 --> 00:11:00,766 and mostly from the Old Testament. 211 00:11:00,766 --> 00:11:03,633 So he started getting grounded, like in the story of Job, 212 00:11:03,633 --> 00:11:05,233 which he talks a lot about. 213 00:11:05,233 --> 00:11:07,200 - Norman: Patience. - That there are other people 214 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,400 who have to carry heavy burdens. 215 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:10,666 - Perseverance. 216 00:11:10,666 --> 00:11:14,800 - Perseverance, and then there's redemption and hope. 217 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,466 So this was a very formative period for him. 218 00:11:18,466 --> 00:11:20,933 And among the most formative events, 219 00:11:20,933 --> 00:11:25,333 and if I failed to mention this, this would be really not good. 220 00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:29,533 He discovered The Columbian Orator, 221 00:11:29,533 --> 00:11:33,433 a textbook at the time about oratory, 222 00:11:33,433 --> 00:11:35,100 which also was designed 223 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:38,400 to give young schoolchildren a chance 224 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,900 to read about the morals 225 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:43,533 and virtues of a free society, of a republic. 226 00:11:43,533 --> 00:11:45,566 - So he saw maybe some irony in that? 227 00:11:45,566 --> 00:11:47,166 - I'm sure he did. 228 00:11:47,166 --> 00:11:50,366 And because he had been learning to read 229 00:11:50,366 --> 00:11:54,000 and developing his reading skills, 230 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,766 he could read out of that book, a very popular textbook 231 00:11:57,766 --> 00:12:02,300 of actually 18th and 19th century by Caleb Bingham. 232 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:03,800 And Bingham was a former schoolteacher. 233 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,200 He had a bookstore in Baltimore. 234 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,400 He was really dedicated 235 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,266 to instructing the young people of the nation, 236 00:12:12,266 --> 00:12:16,166 both boys and girls, by the way. - Oh, that's unusual. 237 00:12:16,166 --> 00:12:17,766 - About the virtues of the republic. 238 00:12:17,766 --> 00:12:21,233 And so the first 20 pages or so of that book 239 00:12:21,233 --> 00:12:23,666 are dedicated to the art of oratory, 240 00:12:23,666 --> 00:12:25,766 or what he called the art of eloquence. 241 00:12:25,766 --> 00:12:30,300 Subsequently, he has randomly put in place 242 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:34,033 orations, dialogues, great writings. 243 00:12:34,033 --> 00:12:36,666 George Washington's in there, 244 00:12:36,666 --> 00:12:41,833 the great leaders in Europe and in Great Britain, 245 00:12:41,833 --> 00:12:47,333 all around the notion of liberty and justice and freedom. 246 00:12:47,333 --> 00:12:49,766 - And it's easy to overlook today 247 00:12:49,766 --> 00:12:52,266 with so many media options, 248 00:12:52,266 --> 00:12:55,933 the importance of oratory in the 19th century 249 00:12:55,933 --> 00:12:58,166 of not just in getting a message across, 250 00:12:58,166 --> 00:13:00,800 but as a way of bringing people together 251 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,533 and even entertainment. 252 00:13:02,533 --> 00:13:07,533 - That's right, and it was called the Golden Age of Oratory 253 00:13:07,533 --> 00:13:11,766 because oratory was the means of communication 254 00:13:11,766 --> 00:13:16,200 in terms of debating the merits of proposals, 255 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,966 in terms of entertainment, as you mentioned. 256 00:13:19,966 --> 00:13:23,900 The Lyceum was a very big deal in the 19th century, 257 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:28,433 where you would get speakers of all cuts 258 00:13:28,433 --> 00:13:32,500 and from all over the United States speaking 259 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:35,733 for the purpose of entertaining or educating. 260 00:13:35,733 --> 00:13:37,466 It was just part of the culture. 261 00:13:38,633 --> 00:13:43,900 - And as he learns oratory, what is the situation for, 262 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:46,766 we'll still call him Frederick Bailey at this point? 263 00:13:46,766 --> 00:13:57,766 - He is still in Baltimore and he is now able to recite... 264 00:13:57,766 --> 00:13:59,733 The whole notion of The Columbian Orator 265 00:13:59,733 --> 00:14:03,033 was you memorize these pieces and you recite them, 266 00:14:03,033 --> 00:14:07,633 and you learn the language of liberation, basically. 267 00:14:07,633 --> 00:14:09,633 And so he's learning that language, 268 00:14:09,633 --> 00:14:11,700 and he's also learning about what it means 269 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:14,533 to be an effective orator. 270 00:14:14,533 --> 00:14:17,100 So write down the hand gestures 271 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:20,766 and how to organize a speech, and it was really important 272 00:14:20,766 --> 00:14:23,200 to be conversational and natural. 273 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,233 All these words fit Douglass as he emerges from slavery. 274 00:14:27,233 --> 00:14:30,666 - His life from a slave, though, his life as a slave, 275 00:14:30,666 --> 00:14:32,000 clearly there's a turning point... 276 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,900 There would be a turning point in the life 277 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:37,366 of any slave who escapes, says, "Now, it's time to go." 278 00:14:37,366 --> 00:14:39,566 - Yep, so at the age of 12, 279 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,166 his overseer dies on the Eastern Shore, 280 00:14:45,166 --> 00:14:48,133 and he's brought back to the Eastern Shore 281 00:14:48,133 --> 00:14:49,933 because they're going divide up now 282 00:14:49,933 --> 00:14:51,666 the slaves that he owned. 283 00:14:52,966 --> 00:14:54,300 That was Aaron Anthony who died. 284 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:56,766 So they divide the slaves, 285 00:14:56,766 --> 00:14:59,233 and as circumstances would have it, 286 00:14:59,233 --> 00:15:02,533 they send Douglass back to Baltimore, 287 00:15:03,533 --> 00:15:05,566 where he lives a little bit longer 288 00:15:05,566 --> 00:15:11,300 until the Aulds in Baltimore decide, 289 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:12,466 well, they don't decide, 290 00:15:12,466 --> 00:15:15,900 but Douglass is now needed on the plantation. 291 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,600 He's old enough, he's strong enough, 292 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,166 they needed him to come back. 293 00:15:20,166 --> 00:15:22,166 - So he's getting a worse job. 294 00:15:22,166 --> 00:15:25,100 - Yeah, he's no longer a house slave. 295 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:26,733 He is actually in the field. 296 00:15:26,733 --> 00:15:29,900 Turns out that he doesn't take to the field life of a slave, 297 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:34,533 being a field hand, very well, and his overseer then sends him 298 00:15:34,533 --> 00:15:38,200 to what they called at the time a slave breaker 299 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,366 or someone to break the spirit of someone who's-- 300 00:15:43,366 --> 00:15:45,233 - Like you would break a horse. 301 00:15:45,233 --> 00:15:48,000 - Exactly, and this man named Edward Covey 302 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,833 had the reputation as being very successful at this. 303 00:15:50,833 --> 00:15:54,500 And under him, Douglass is worked really hard. 304 00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:58,333 He's beaten regularly, whipped, 305 00:15:58,333 --> 00:16:02,000 and just to the point where Douglass can hardly... 306 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,433 Well, he can't stand it anymore. 307 00:16:03,433 --> 00:16:08,500 And he actually takes on Covey, and it's a famous fight, 308 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:10,600 and Douglass describes it as two hours. 309 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,400 It may have been more or less, but in the end, 310 00:16:14,466 --> 00:16:17,600 he's victorious over this slave breaker. 311 00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:21,766 And normally, what would happen in that case 312 00:16:21,766 --> 00:16:23,700 is they'd send him deeper south. 313 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:25,533 - Yes, sure, where it could be harder-- 314 00:16:25,533 --> 00:16:26,766 - For him to escape. 315 00:16:26,766 --> 00:16:28,566 - Harder lifestyle and harder to escape. 316 00:16:28,566 --> 00:16:30,900 - But Covey, as I've read about him, 317 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:33,933 was so proud of his reputation. 318 00:16:33,933 --> 00:16:35,700 He didn't want to do that. 319 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:37,833 And he didn't want people to know 320 00:16:37,833 --> 00:16:40,933 that Douglass had whipped him, basically. 321 00:16:40,933 --> 00:16:42,800 I mean, not whipped him with a whip, 322 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,333 but physically handled him. 323 00:16:45,333 --> 00:16:48,900 And so he sends him to the Freeland farm 324 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,233 to be a farmhand. 325 00:16:51,233 --> 00:16:54,333 The Freelands had a reputation of being, 326 00:16:54,333 --> 00:16:57,433 if you can say this about enslaved people, 327 00:16:57,433 --> 00:16:59,766 a kind slave owner. 328 00:16:59,766 --> 00:17:01,833 So Douglass was well-treated. 329 00:17:01,833 --> 00:17:04,733 He was clothed. 330 00:17:04,733 --> 00:17:07,933 He wasn't beaten, but he had to work. 331 00:17:07,933 --> 00:17:12,800 And of course, now Douglass is 16, 17, 332 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,400 he starts to meet with people in the area, 333 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,033 his Black comrades, and they begin to plot an escape. 334 00:17:20,033 --> 00:17:22,966 And they determine they're going to escape on Easter 335 00:17:22,966 --> 00:17:26,133 because Easter is a time when there's free movement. 336 00:17:27,133 --> 00:17:29,666 - Slaves get to visit their families and that kind of thing. 337 00:17:29,666 --> 00:17:32,800 - So they would put a boat in Chesapeake Bay, 338 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,533 and they would float their way north to freedom. 339 00:17:35,533 --> 00:17:39,500 Well, one of the people in the plan got nervous 340 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,500 and told on them, and they were caught. 341 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,900 Douglass and about two other of his comrades were caught. 342 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:49,933 They were marched to St. Michael's, 343 00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:55,000 which was about a good 10 to 12 miles away and jailed. 344 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,800 And when Douglass was released, 345 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,633 and instead of being sent again south, 346 00:18:01,633 --> 00:18:03,533 they sent him back to Baltimore. 347 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:07,766 Which there's a lot of conjecture about, 348 00:18:07,766 --> 00:18:12,600 but many of the scholars on Douglass, 349 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,500 Douglass scholars do speculate that Douglass had... 350 00:18:18,933 --> 00:18:21,733 People realized he was really-- 351 00:18:21,733 --> 00:18:23,500 - Had something extra. - Right. 352 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,366 And when he got to Baltimore, 353 00:18:25,366 --> 00:18:29,500 Hugh and Sophia Auld promised him that at age 25, 354 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:33,066 they would free him from slavery. 355 00:18:33,066 --> 00:18:36,400 Of course, he's 18, so that's a long time. 356 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,866 - Still a seven-year sentence. 357 00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:41,000 - And so while he's in Baltimore this time, 358 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,233 he becomes a member 359 00:18:42,233 --> 00:18:44,833 of the Baltimore Mental Improvement Society, 360 00:18:44,833 --> 00:18:47,900 which is a society of all Black men, pretty much, 361 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:51,200 who debate on a regular basis, give speeches to one another, 362 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,233 and educate each other about the world. 363 00:18:55,233 --> 00:18:59,666 He also discovers religion, organized religion, 364 00:18:59,666 --> 00:19:03,166 and joins an AME Zion Baptist church. 365 00:19:03,166 --> 00:19:05,466 He is befriended by a man named Lawson, 366 00:19:05,466 --> 00:19:07,533 who becomes his mentor 367 00:19:07,533 --> 00:19:11,433 and his first real loving friendship that they develop. 368 00:19:11,433 --> 00:19:14,866 And Lawson teaches him further about the Bible, 369 00:19:14,866 --> 00:19:19,233 and tells Douglass that he's a special person 370 00:19:19,233 --> 00:19:22,233 and was born for special purpose. 371 00:19:22,233 --> 00:19:23,833 - Oh, that's a turning point, isn't it? 372 00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:26,533 - Yes, it was, so all this movement 373 00:19:26,533 --> 00:19:29,333 and Douglass teaching Sabbath schools, for example, 374 00:19:29,333 --> 00:19:32,100 and teaching fellow slaves how to read 375 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:37,166 and going to church and experiencing Black preachers 376 00:19:37,166 --> 00:19:41,166 both on the plantation and as in Baltimore, 377 00:19:41,166 --> 00:19:43,700 all this is the foundation for him 378 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:47,200 in terms of his life mission or goal. 379 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,033 - Which requires, in order to fulfill it, escape. 380 00:19:51,033 --> 00:19:52,833 - Freedom, exactly. 381 00:19:52,833 --> 00:19:55,900 So at age 20, and in all this time, 382 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:58,166 in that two-year period, 18 to 20 years old, 383 00:19:58,166 --> 00:20:03,233 he falls in love with a free Black woman named Anna Murray. 384 00:20:03,233 --> 00:20:09,800 And she is a domestic servant, but a free woman. 385 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,333 And that also fuels him 386 00:20:11,333 --> 00:20:16,733 because an enslaved man can't marry a woman who is free. 387 00:20:16,733 --> 00:20:20,300 So together, they plot an escape. 388 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,500 He has friends who are sailors. 389 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:26,900 He puts on a sailor uniform, gets his friend's papers. 390 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,633 I think it was Navy papers. 391 00:20:31,633 --> 00:20:34,266 Gets on a train dressed as a sailor, 392 00:20:34,266 --> 00:20:37,800 and literally rides the railroad to freedom 393 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,766 to Philadelphia and then a steamship to New York. 394 00:20:40,766 --> 00:20:42,166 And when he gets to New York, 395 00:20:42,166 --> 00:20:44,166 he sends for Anna, and they marry in New York, 396 00:20:44,166 --> 00:20:46,733 and then he moves to New Bedford, Massachusetts 397 00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:49,100 at the direction of the abolitionists, 398 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:51,800 who in New York were kind of guiding him at that point. 399 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,600 He connected with them. 400 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,133 And they sent him to New Bedford. 401 00:20:55,133 --> 00:20:56,933 - Norman: New Bedford, a very busy place 402 00:20:56,933 --> 00:20:59,700 in the 1840s and '50s. 403 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:02,000 - Greg: It's a major whaling port. 404 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,366 Lots of ships. 405 00:21:03,366 --> 00:21:05,733 One of the things I failed to mention in Baltimore, 406 00:21:05,733 --> 00:21:09,666 when he was 18, he had been trained as a caulker 407 00:21:09,666 --> 00:21:14,000 on the wharfs of Baltimore. 408 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,500 And so he had a trade, he learned a trade. 409 00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:21,533 And so the idea was maybe he could carry that trade forward 410 00:21:21,533 --> 00:21:24,366 from Baltimore to New Bedford and be a caulker. 411 00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:27,266 He'd have a livelihood while he got established 412 00:21:27,266 --> 00:21:28,533 in New Bedford. 413 00:21:28,533 --> 00:21:30,733 - What kind of life did he experience as a caulker, 414 00:21:30,733 --> 00:21:32,900 as a professional in New Bedford? 415 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:36,133 Was it anything approaching equality? 416 00:21:36,133 --> 00:21:39,000 Who was he working with? - No, it didn't go well at all. 417 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,466 In fact, the first time he went to work down 418 00:21:42,466 --> 00:21:46,366 at the wharfs in New Bedford, he was beaten. 419 00:21:46,366 --> 00:21:49,766 And so he had to find other work. 420 00:21:49,766 --> 00:21:52,433 It just didn't work for him. 421 00:21:52,433 --> 00:21:54,900 And so what he did was he went on 422 00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:58,200 then to work in a candle factory 423 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,533 and eventually joined the Black abolitionist, 424 00:22:02,533 --> 00:22:07,000 the local Black abolitionist folks in New Bedford, 425 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,333 where they met regularly 426 00:22:08,333 --> 00:22:11,400 as anti-slavery meetings, organized meetings. 427 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,333 He joined the AME Zion Church in New Bedford, 428 00:22:15,333 --> 00:22:18,733 where he established himself very quickly as a leader 429 00:22:18,733 --> 00:22:24,300 and went into pastoral training and became a licensed pastor, 430 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,000 or at least on his way to being a licensed pastor. 431 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,233 And they happily married. 432 00:22:31,233 --> 00:22:34,700 And there were a lot of Quakers in New Bedford 433 00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:37,433 who supported the Black community. 434 00:22:37,433 --> 00:22:40,633 But still, even though things were looking up, 435 00:22:40,633 --> 00:22:41,933 he was still a fugitive. 436 00:22:41,933 --> 00:22:43,733 - And he must've changed his name by now. 437 00:22:43,733 --> 00:22:44,933 - And he changed his name 438 00:22:44,933 --> 00:22:46,633 when he got to New Bedford to Douglass. 439 00:22:46,633 --> 00:22:48,466 The person he was staying with 440 00:22:48,466 --> 00:22:51,366 actually was reading "Lady of the Lake," 441 00:22:51,366 --> 00:22:54,033 an epic poem where the heroine-- 442 00:22:54,033 --> 00:22:55,733 - Sir Walter Scott. - Sir Walter Scott, 443 00:22:55,733 --> 00:22:57,100 and the heroine was Douglass, 444 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,300 and said, "This would be a very good name for you." 445 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:01,166 Which fit, again, into Douglass's 446 00:23:01,166 --> 00:23:06,100 kind of intellectual vision for himself as a heroic figure. 447 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,500 - He must still have been looking over his shoulder though 448 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:09,866 for slave catchers. 449 00:23:09,866 --> 00:23:12,833 - Yes, the fugitive slave law was well underway, 450 00:23:12,833 --> 00:23:17,100 except in New Bedford because there were so many Quakers 451 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,766 and it was a very healthy-sized Black population. 452 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,833 If slave catchers were to come into New Bedford, 453 00:23:25,833 --> 00:23:28,733 Douglass would've been protected, 454 00:23:28,733 --> 00:23:31,633 would've been guarded, would've had ample warning. 455 00:23:31,633 --> 00:23:36,566 And so that was the good part about New Bedford. 456 00:23:36,566 --> 00:23:38,533 - So he's an abolitionist at this point, 457 00:23:38,533 --> 00:23:41,566 I mean, in practice as well as in spirit. 458 00:23:41,566 --> 00:23:45,766 And is he, like, taking to the road, making the rounds? 459 00:23:45,766 --> 00:23:48,700 - Yeah, in 1841, August of 1841, 460 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:51,966 Garrison and the white abolitionists from Boston 461 00:23:51,966 --> 00:23:53,133 came to town. 462 00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:58,400 They had heard about Douglass in New Bedford. 463 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,000 They had known he had become a leader, 464 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,366 an established leader 465 00:24:02,366 --> 00:24:05,733 in the Black abolitionist movement in New Bedford. 466 00:24:05,733 --> 00:24:08,333 And they went and heard him speak. 467 00:24:08,333 --> 00:24:10,333 And Garrison writes a great deal. 468 00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:11,733 William Lloyd Garrison, who's the leader 469 00:24:11,733 --> 00:24:13,900 of the anti-slavery movement, 470 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:16,633 the moral suasion wing of the anti-slavery movement, 471 00:24:16,633 --> 00:24:17,966 heard him speak. 472 00:24:17,966 --> 00:24:21,800 And so invited him to Nantucket to a larger convention 473 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,133 and to speak in front of white people for the first time. 474 00:24:25,133 --> 00:24:26,966 And Douglass writes a lot about this 475 00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:28,233 in his autobiographies 476 00:24:28,233 --> 00:24:32,100 of how white people had always been the enemy, 477 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,933 basically, and so he was very, very nervous. 478 00:24:34,933 --> 00:24:38,100 But he did very well, to the point where 479 00:24:39,233 --> 00:24:42,300 Garrison recognized this is a person that could 480 00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:47,366 shed bright light on slavery, the atrocities of it 481 00:24:47,366 --> 00:24:49,766 with firsthand experience, 482 00:24:49,766 --> 00:24:51,833 and offered Douglass an opportunity 483 00:24:51,833 --> 00:24:53,966 to become a full-time abolitionist 484 00:24:53,966 --> 00:24:57,033 with the Garrisonian abolitionists. 485 00:24:57,033 --> 00:24:59,633 - Douglass scarred by the whippings he had received? 486 00:24:59,633 --> 00:25:04,533 - He was scarred, but not mentally. 487 00:25:04,533 --> 00:25:08,066 He had a very strong will, as I've tried to establish, 488 00:25:08,066 --> 00:25:12,233 and he was beaten, and savagely at times. 489 00:25:12,233 --> 00:25:15,466 But when you look at the time he spent in that setting, 490 00:25:16,466 --> 00:25:18,066 and I don't want in any way diminish 491 00:25:18,066 --> 00:25:21,966 that he was beaten, but it was a short period of time, 492 00:25:21,966 --> 00:25:24,433 not enough to really break him. 493 00:25:24,433 --> 00:25:27,033 And when he was on the verge of being broken, 494 00:25:27,033 --> 00:25:30,633 he fought back, and it turned out pretty well for him, 495 00:25:30,633 --> 00:25:33,733 where it could have gone literally deeper south. 496 00:25:33,733 --> 00:25:38,800 - His voice and his presence, 497 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,800 also powerful when he was an orator? 498 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,933 - Yes, his physical presence, people write about this. 499 00:25:45,933 --> 00:25:48,833 Elizabeth Cady Stanton has the best, I think, 500 00:25:48,833 --> 00:25:52,166 description of him on the stage, on the platform. 501 00:25:52,166 --> 00:25:53,566 She called him... 502 00:25:53,566 --> 00:25:56,566 She said he was majestic in his wrath. 503 00:25:56,566 --> 00:25:59,700 He was angry, he spoke pointedly. 504 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:02,066 He was courageous in the sense 505 00:26:02,066 --> 00:26:05,266 that he would hold up America's sin of slavery 506 00:26:05,266 --> 00:26:06,933 in front of everyone. 507 00:26:06,933 --> 00:26:10,366 He continuously asked, "Why was I a slave? 508 00:26:10,366 --> 00:26:12,400 "Why am I a fugitive? 509 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,166 I am a human being." 510 00:26:14,166 --> 00:26:17,433 And his very presence on the stage was a testament 511 00:26:17,433 --> 00:26:20,600 to the fact that he was a human being. 512 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:26,433 And he was fearless when it came to 513 00:26:26,433 --> 00:26:29,766 evoking the sins of America, 514 00:26:29,766 --> 00:26:32,866 not just of the North, but just the sin 515 00:26:32,866 --> 00:26:35,866 and going against everything that was decent 516 00:26:35,866 --> 00:26:38,400 in the Declaration of Independence. 517 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,000 That was his touchstone. 518 00:26:41,466 --> 00:26:43,700 America is not living up to its promise. 519 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:44,866 We hear these words today, 520 00:26:44,866 --> 00:26:48,633 but in the 19th century, for a Black man, 521 00:26:48,633 --> 00:26:52,266 considered a brute, less than human, to be getting up 522 00:26:52,266 --> 00:26:56,200 and questioning Americans, white Americans, 523 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,300 particularly white Northerners, 524 00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:01,566 oftentimes affluent white Northerners 525 00:27:01,566 --> 00:27:05,066 about not living up to the promise, right, 526 00:27:05,066 --> 00:27:08,800 of the Declaration of Independence. 527 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,566 That was something very different. 528 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,300 - So he takes to the road. 529 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:17,766 How widely does he travel as a proponent of abolition? 530 00:27:17,766 --> 00:27:20,633 - So he does, he takes to the road immediately. 531 00:27:20,633 --> 00:27:24,933 In the years that follow, in the four years that follow, 532 00:27:24,933 --> 00:27:30,666 he actually participates in two 100 convention tours. 533 00:27:30,666 --> 00:27:33,633 There's a 100 convention tour of New York, 534 00:27:33,633 --> 00:27:37,500 and there's a 100 convention tour of Rhode Island 535 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,166 where he is literally, it's 100 conventions. 536 00:27:40,166 --> 00:27:44,033 So he is on the road with the white abolitionists 537 00:27:45,366 --> 00:27:48,166 traveling from town to town, usually following the path 538 00:27:48,166 --> 00:27:50,766 of the railroad or the stage coach. 539 00:27:50,766 --> 00:27:52,600 And remember, he is a Black person, 540 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,366 so he is relegated to, when he is on a train, 541 00:27:55,366 --> 00:27:57,233 he's forced to-- 542 00:27:57,233 --> 00:27:59,100 - Ride with the baggage, in some cases. 543 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:01,900 - Ride with the baggage and in any kind of steamship, 544 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:03,133 in steerage. 545 00:28:03,133 --> 00:28:06,633 Of course, Douglass would not tolerate that. 546 00:28:06,633 --> 00:28:10,266 And so there's a great story about him being picked up 547 00:28:10,266 --> 00:28:11,833 in New Bedford by the railroad, 548 00:28:11,833 --> 00:28:14,366 and him sitting in the cars with the whites. 549 00:28:14,366 --> 00:28:15,966 And he did this a number of times, 550 00:28:15,966 --> 00:28:17,566 and they would throw him off the train. 551 00:28:17,566 --> 00:28:20,233 And after a while, the railroad decided 552 00:28:20,233 --> 00:28:22,066 they weren't gonna stop at New Bedford 553 00:28:22,066 --> 00:28:24,633 because Douglass was continuously doing 554 00:28:24,633 --> 00:28:26,666 civil disobedience, basically. 555 00:28:26,666 --> 00:28:28,100 But yeah, he traveled widely. 556 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:31,133 He had trouble finding places to sleep 557 00:28:31,133 --> 00:28:33,100 and places to stay. 558 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:34,533 If there were white abolitionists 559 00:28:34,533 --> 00:28:37,166 friendly towards the movement 560 00:28:37,166 --> 00:28:39,966 and friendly towards a Black person staying in their home, 561 00:28:39,966 --> 00:28:41,600 of course he could do that, 562 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,766 but that was not always the case. 563 00:28:43,766 --> 00:28:46,066 He struggled with that. 564 00:28:46,066 --> 00:28:50,666 - On these trips, these road trips, speaking tours, 565 00:28:50,666 --> 00:28:52,633 did he run into violence? 566 00:28:52,633 --> 00:28:58,133 - He did, and these were not calm meetings. 567 00:28:58,133 --> 00:29:00,700 A lot of times, the smaller local meetings 568 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:02,933 were relatively calm, 569 00:29:02,933 --> 00:29:04,833 although Douglass had the reputation 570 00:29:04,833 --> 00:29:08,633 of calling and even disagreeing with the abolitionists publicly. 571 00:29:08,633 --> 00:29:10,400 - Well, there was a spectrum of abolitionists. 572 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,600 Wasn't there a spectrum of opinion? 573 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,666 - Yeah, so he was not afraid to do that, 574 00:29:14,666 --> 00:29:17,433 but occasionally they would get into the... 575 00:29:17,433 --> 00:29:19,566 They would be speaking in a town that wasn't friendly. 576 00:29:19,566 --> 00:29:23,100 And a good example of that is Pendleton, Indiana. 577 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,166 Now, Indiana was pretty close to the slave, 578 00:29:26,166 --> 00:29:30,033 to the South and organized slavery. 579 00:29:30,033 --> 00:29:34,900 And a mob had formed to basically kill Douglass, 580 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:36,766 or at least injure him severely enough 581 00:29:36,766 --> 00:29:38,166 that he couldn't speak. 582 00:29:38,166 --> 00:29:40,866 And so in the middle of a meeting, 583 00:29:40,866 --> 00:29:44,866 they came and beat him with... 584 00:29:44,866 --> 00:29:46,233 They broke up the platform, 585 00:29:46,233 --> 00:29:49,633 the wooden platform, and beat him with the platform, 586 00:29:49,633 --> 00:29:52,300 and nearly killed him. 587 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:53,800 The white abolitionists rescued him 588 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,366 and brought him back to a home where he was administered, 589 00:29:57,366 --> 00:29:59,266 but then Douglass being Douglass 590 00:29:59,266 --> 00:30:02,300 decided he was gonna go back to the same place the next day, 591 00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:05,466 and he was not going to allow anyone 592 00:30:05,466 --> 00:30:08,700 to deter him from his mission to end slavery. 593 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:12,633 And that happened repeatedly in this whole period 594 00:30:12,633 --> 00:30:15,666 from 1841 to 1845. 595 00:30:15,666 --> 00:30:18,400 There were outbreaks at various conventions, 596 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,300 even in Boston, in Faneuil Hall in the 1840s 597 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:25,200 and later in the 1860s. 598 00:30:26,933 --> 00:30:28,533 They would try to shout... 599 00:30:28,533 --> 00:30:31,800 They called it shouting him off the platform. 600 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,533 And Douglass believed that he was a citizen 601 00:30:36,533 --> 00:30:40,100 and he was entitled to all the rights of a citizen, 602 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:42,000 including the right of free speech. 603 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,966 So he never was shouted off the platform. 604 00:30:44,966 --> 00:30:48,400 People shouted over him, but he never would leave a platform. 605 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,233 He would always stay and finish his remarks, 606 00:30:51,233 --> 00:30:52,766 despite all the noise. 607 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:54,966 - And along the way, 608 00:30:54,966 --> 00:30:56,366 getting considerable press, I would think. 609 00:30:56,366 --> 00:31:02,266 - He was, locally, and then more of a northern newspaper, 610 00:31:02,266 --> 00:31:06,300 The Liberator of course carried lots of stories. 611 00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:07,533 When I was doing my research, 612 00:31:07,533 --> 00:31:09,866 I found stories in the New National Era, 613 00:31:09,866 --> 00:31:11,633 which was an abolitionist newspaper. 614 00:31:11,633 --> 00:31:14,133 The local newspapers covered him too. 615 00:31:14,133 --> 00:31:16,266 A lot of times, local newspapers at that period 616 00:31:16,266 --> 00:31:19,133 would just replicate what was in the national news, 617 00:31:19,133 --> 00:31:20,800 but they always had a local column. 618 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,033 And they would describe Douglass on the platform, 619 00:31:24,033 --> 00:31:29,366 and people were just aghast at how strong he was, 620 00:31:29,366 --> 00:31:33,200 how voracious he was as a speaker, yeah. 621 00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:38,366 - Newspapers were, of course, as you imply Greg, 622 00:31:38,366 --> 00:31:41,666 key for communication at this point. 623 00:31:41,666 --> 00:31:44,666 Did he eventually have a newspaper of his own? 624 00:31:44,666 --> 00:31:52,133 - Yes, in fact, one of his goals early on in the 1840s 625 00:31:52,133 --> 00:31:54,100 was to have his own newspaper 626 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:56,066 so he could have his voice heard. 627 00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:03,000 When he fled to England and when he was in England, 628 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,366 the white abolitionists there, the women particularly, 629 00:32:06,366 --> 00:32:09,266 the Female Anti-Slavery Society in England, 630 00:32:09,266 --> 00:32:13,100 actually bought his freedom. 631 00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:15,500 And so that was very controversial 632 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:17,166 because by buying his freedom-- 633 00:32:17,166 --> 00:32:19,766 - It implied that he had been a slave in the first place. 634 00:32:19,766 --> 00:32:21,766 - He had been a slave in the first place, 635 00:32:21,766 --> 00:32:23,366 and that didn't sit well with the abolitionists. 636 00:32:23,366 --> 00:32:25,066 But for Douglass, that was the liberation 637 00:32:25,066 --> 00:32:26,933 he was so, so desiring. 638 00:32:26,933 --> 00:32:29,200 So they paid for his freedom 639 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,500 and they raised money for a press 640 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:36,733 so he could come return to the America again, to the U.S., 641 00:32:36,733 --> 00:32:40,866 a free man rejoined with his wife Anna 642 00:32:40,866 --> 00:32:45,833 and his family, and they moved to Rochester, New York. 643 00:32:45,833 --> 00:32:48,666 The Garrisonians were not supportive 644 00:32:48,666 --> 00:32:50,333 of him having his own newspaper. 645 00:32:50,333 --> 00:32:52,066 They believed that was overkill. 646 00:32:52,066 --> 00:32:54,666 They were really, actually threatened by the fact 647 00:32:54,666 --> 00:32:56,733 that he would publish his own newspaper. 648 00:32:58,133 --> 00:32:59,733 It was called The North Star. 649 00:32:59,733 --> 00:33:01,766 And he did publish it in Rochester, 650 00:33:01,766 --> 00:33:03,933 and he had a lot of benefactors in Rochester, 651 00:33:03,933 --> 00:33:06,166 which is why he moved to Rochester. 652 00:33:06,166 --> 00:33:08,966 He had a lot of support from the local community, 653 00:33:08,966 --> 00:33:13,066 and he thrived there as an independent editor. 654 00:33:13,066 --> 00:33:18,333 And again, continued to speak as an abolitionist speaker. 655 00:33:18,333 --> 00:33:22,266 - We're, I think by this point, getting into the 1850s 656 00:33:22,266 --> 00:33:29,333 and the most contentious of the pre-Civil War years. 657 00:33:29,333 --> 00:33:30,733 - Greg: Yes. 658 00:33:30,733 --> 00:33:32,100 - Norman: In addition to abolitionists, 659 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:35,133 is he having other allies in the northern states, 660 00:33:35,133 --> 00:33:37,333 obviously for the most part, 661 00:33:37,333 --> 00:33:39,666 who are not necessarily abolitionists, 662 00:33:39,666 --> 00:33:42,666 but they're saying it's time for slavery to go? 663 00:33:42,666 --> 00:33:44,266 - Greg: Yeah, in the 1850s, 664 00:33:44,266 --> 00:33:46,266 it was such a crucial period for Douglass. 665 00:33:46,266 --> 00:33:50,333 Douglass was a Garrisonian abolitionist up until the 1850s, 666 00:33:50,333 --> 00:33:55,333 and Garrisonians believed that moral suasion 667 00:33:55,333 --> 00:33:58,933 was the way forward, that you could convince people, 668 00:33:58,933 --> 00:34:01,333 if you could bring slavery into the hearts 669 00:34:01,333 --> 00:34:05,133 and minds of the audience, the people of the North, 670 00:34:05,133 --> 00:34:09,066 they would see the immorality of it and work to end it. 671 00:34:10,433 --> 00:34:15,200 And they wanted to dissolve the Constitution and start anew. 672 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,833 They wanted a peaceful-- 673 00:34:17,833 --> 00:34:19,200 - Transition. 674 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,400 - Transition, and that's what they were working toward. 675 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,766 By the 1850s, Douglass was evolving to the point, 676 00:34:24,766 --> 00:34:26,466 particularly with other Black abolitionists, 677 00:34:26,466 --> 00:34:28,533 but also white abolitionists, 678 00:34:28,533 --> 00:34:31,900 and with the political climate as it was, 679 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:33,633 becoming very discouraged 680 00:34:33,633 --> 00:34:39,200 and started to believe that the Constitution, 681 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,933 contrary to what the Garrisonians believed, 682 00:34:41,933 --> 00:34:46,100 that the Constitution was not a pro-slavery document, 683 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,933 but contained the workings of actually a way forward 684 00:34:50,933 --> 00:34:53,200 to end slavery and start anew. 685 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,333 - It did, from the get-go, 686 00:34:55,333 --> 00:34:58,100 specify that there would be an end in 1808 687 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:00,166 to the importation of slaves. 688 00:35:00,166 --> 00:35:01,900 - And then beyond that, 689 00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:05,800 he realized that the Constitution could be amended, 690 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,566 which would set in motion, from his view, 691 00:35:09,566 --> 00:35:15,633 a new republic, a reborn republic with no slavery. 692 00:35:15,633 --> 00:35:17,600 That was his vision. 693 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,633 And he began advocating for that in the mid-1850s 694 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,233 and started getting some attention, 695 00:35:24,233 --> 00:35:26,900 particularly from the Republican party. 696 00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:31,633 - And meanwhile, back in New Bedford, 697 00:35:31,633 --> 00:35:33,466 or in Boston, let's say, 698 00:35:33,466 --> 00:35:38,866 there was still some contention between abolitionists 699 00:35:38,866 --> 00:35:43,333 and pro-slavery exponents, even in Massachusetts. 700 00:35:43,333 --> 00:35:44,533 - Yeah, it was... 701 00:35:44,533 --> 00:35:48,266 Douglass wrote a lot about the two prongs 702 00:35:48,266 --> 00:35:52,433 of being a Black person in the U.S. 703 00:35:52,433 --> 00:35:54,700 One of them, of course, was slavery. 704 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:59,366 That was the most insidious part of the nation. 705 00:35:59,366 --> 00:36:02,333 But right up there with that was racism. 706 00:36:02,333 --> 00:36:05,700 And he called it racism. 707 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:10,466 He called it that this was a nation 708 00:36:10,466 --> 00:36:12,933 where even when a Black man was free 709 00:36:12,933 --> 00:36:15,566 or a fugitive in the North, 710 00:36:15,566 --> 00:36:18,500 it was sometimes harder to deal with racism 711 00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:21,366 than it was with slavery because slavery was explicit. 712 00:36:21,366 --> 00:36:24,400 Racism was a lot of times implicit. 713 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,866 And he was always considered 3/5 a citizen, 714 00:36:27,866 --> 00:36:31,366 and he thought, "I'm a whole person." 715 00:36:31,366 --> 00:36:33,033 - But from a Constitutional standpoint, 716 00:36:33,033 --> 00:36:37,366 in terms of population and representation, 717 00:36:37,366 --> 00:36:39,566 slaves were 3/5. - Greg: Yeah. 718 00:36:39,566 --> 00:36:42,900 - Various curious times in retrospect, 719 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:45,833 and even in Boston, as we see, 720 00:36:45,833 --> 00:36:50,366 there are some strong events going on 721 00:36:50,366 --> 00:36:52,900 as we approached the 1860s. 722 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:56,266 - Greg: Yeah, the tension in that decade, 723 00:36:56,266 --> 00:37:01,266 1850 to 1861 or so, a little more than a decade, 724 00:37:01,266 --> 00:37:05,033 really, the pressure continued to rise. 725 00:37:05,033 --> 00:37:07,166 And among the abolitionists, they arose 726 00:37:07,166 --> 00:37:09,300 because there was the American... 727 00:37:10,366 --> 00:37:12,833 It was the National Abolitionist Society 728 00:37:12,833 --> 00:37:15,266 and the American Abolitionist Society, 729 00:37:15,266 --> 00:37:19,100 and Garrison was kind of in both camps, 730 00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:21,700 but the American Abolitionist Society 731 00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:23,233 was the more political wing. 732 00:37:23,233 --> 00:37:27,666 And Douglass began to see, why couldn't you do both? 733 00:37:27,666 --> 00:37:30,966 Why couldn't you rely on moral suasion 734 00:37:30,966 --> 00:37:34,533 and arguing for equality for all people, 735 00:37:34,533 --> 00:37:38,666 not just Black people, but for women and immigrants as well, 736 00:37:38,666 --> 00:37:42,533 and take political action to end slavery? 737 00:37:42,533 --> 00:37:45,800 So he began to evolve in that way, much to the dismay 738 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,000 of the Garrisonians 739 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,566 because they were staunchly opposed 740 00:37:49,566 --> 00:37:51,266 to seeing the Constitution as anything 741 00:37:51,266 --> 00:37:53,300 but a pro-slavery document. 742 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:57,166 So he was pretty fierce at that point in his beliefs. 743 00:37:57,166 --> 00:38:01,000 - And how does his world change with Fort Sumpter 744 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,933 and the onset of the Civil War? 745 00:38:02,933 --> 00:38:05,466 - The minute the Civil War breaks out, 746 00:38:05,466 --> 00:38:10,233 Douglass identifies that as a time of jubilation, 747 00:38:10,233 --> 00:38:12,800 that finally we're going to settle 748 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,833 this issue of slavery. 749 00:38:15,833 --> 00:38:18,333 He was also very disappointed 750 00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:20,633 in the president, Abraham Lincoln, 751 00:38:20,633 --> 00:38:24,266 who wanted to define the war as a war to save the Union. 752 00:38:24,266 --> 00:38:28,266 And so Douglass immediately went to work on the platform, 753 00:38:28,266 --> 00:38:30,700 calling out Lincoln basically, and saying, 754 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,566 "This war is not about the Union. 755 00:38:33,566 --> 00:38:37,533 A new Union could be formed with the ending of slavery." 756 00:38:37,533 --> 00:38:42,466 And he got a lot of attention taking on a white president 757 00:38:42,466 --> 00:38:46,200 and very prominently and rigorously 758 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,433 and relentlessly advocating for 759 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:52,400 "Let's define this for what it is, 760 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,900 "and let's allow Black men to enlist in the Army 761 00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,933 "and showing the South that to save the Union, 762 00:39:00,933 --> 00:39:02,266 "we're going to end slavery, 763 00:39:02,266 --> 00:39:05,766 and we're going to arm all men to do that." 764 00:39:05,766 --> 00:39:07,400 - And two of the first enlistees, 765 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,033 Black enlistees were his own sons. 766 00:39:09,033 --> 00:39:11,966 - Exactly, Douglass had gone to the White House 767 00:39:11,966 --> 00:39:14,466 to meet with President Lincoln. 768 00:39:15,666 --> 00:39:18,900 He went after the Emancipation Proclamation 769 00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:21,466 in January 1, 1863, 770 00:39:21,466 --> 00:39:24,133 which allowed Black soldiers to enlist. 771 00:39:24,133 --> 00:39:25,833 And Douglass went right out and recruit... 772 00:39:25,833 --> 00:39:28,666 He was a major recruiter for Black men 773 00:39:28,666 --> 00:39:31,800 to enlist in the Massachusetts 64th regiment. 774 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,766 His two sons, two of his three sons enlisted immediately 775 00:39:34,766 --> 00:39:38,566 and became members of that, captured in the movie Glory. 776 00:39:38,566 --> 00:39:40,833 It's an older movie now, but it was captured-- 777 00:39:40,833 --> 00:39:42,366 - Norman: The attack on Fort Wagner. 778 00:39:42,366 --> 00:39:46,766 - Yeah, and then seeing how Black troops were treated 779 00:39:46,766 --> 00:39:49,666 and didn't get the uniforms 780 00:39:49,666 --> 00:39:52,600 or didn't have the same treatment 781 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,666 or weren't armed in the same way, 782 00:39:55,666 --> 00:39:57,900 Douglass went to the White House, obviously, 783 00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:59,866 to argue for better treatment of Black soldiers, 784 00:39:59,866 --> 00:40:02,733 including pay, which was very important. 785 00:40:02,733 --> 00:40:04,533 - But also very heavy lift. 786 00:40:04,533 --> 00:40:08,700 - A heavy lift, and again, asked Lincoln 787 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:13,900 to reframe, basically, the war, which Lincoln did. 788 00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:17,200 And again, this is a complicated matter, 789 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,600 much more complicated and nuanced 790 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,900 than we can talk about here, 791 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:24,233 but that relationship was important. 792 00:40:24,233 --> 00:40:28,233 In fact, after Lincoln was assassinated, in his will, 793 00:40:28,233 --> 00:40:31,766 he had willed Douglass one of his walking sticks 794 00:40:31,766 --> 00:40:33,833 as a token of his appreciation 795 00:40:33,833 --> 00:40:36,800 and fondness for Douglass, even though they clashed. 796 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,033 - A gentleman's disagreement from what we know, 797 00:40:40,033 --> 00:40:41,666 although there's no transcript at all 798 00:40:41,666 --> 00:40:43,233 of their one-on-one meeting. 799 00:40:43,233 --> 00:40:44,500 - Greg: No, not at all. 800 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:46,600 - We can only hypothesize, I guess, 801 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,733 what they would've said, but as you said, Greg, 802 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,700 Douglass would say, "Emancipation now!" 803 00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:57,433 and Lincoln would say, "We have to preserve the Union 804 00:40:57,433 --> 00:40:59,133 before we can emancipate." 805 00:40:59,133 --> 00:41:01,566 - Right, and that was the tension. 806 00:41:01,566 --> 00:41:04,833 And it turned out, on a practical matter, 807 00:41:04,833 --> 00:41:07,300 because the war was not going well, 808 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:08,700 and there were lots of other factors, 809 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:10,533 but mostly the war was not going well 810 00:41:10,533 --> 00:41:13,800 and there were a lot of Northern soldiers being killed, 811 00:41:14,933 --> 00:41:19,666 the exigence of that period was, we need to increase our numbers. 812 00:41:19,666 --> 00:41:23,733 Douglass loved this because then he could argue, 813 00:41:23,733 --> 00:41:26,133 "Well, you've armed us. 814 00:41:26,133 --> 00:41:30,466 "We're dying for our country, for the Union, 815 00:41:30,466 --> 00:41:33,366 "then we absolutely deserve equal rights 816 00:41:33,366 --> 00:41:36,533 and full rights as citizens of the United States." 817 00:41:36,533 --> 00:41:38,733 - Yes, and it was so blatantly clear that 818 00:41:38,733 --> 00:41:42,033 they were still not getting anything near that 819 00:41:42,033 --> 00:41:45,033 from the South when they would be massacred when captured, 820 00:41:45,033 --> 00:41:47,433 in some instances, by the Southern troops. 821 00:41:47,433 --> 00:41:49,266 - And remember, in emancipation, 822 00:41:49,266 --> 00:41:53,800 freed slaves as the North freed territories. 823 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,366 So it wasn't a blanket emancipation, 824 00:41:56,366 --> 00:42:00,266 but it was enough to get Black soldiers. 825 00:42:00,266 --> 00:42:03,766 And the fear, of course, from the white person's side 826 00:42:03,766 --> 00:42:05,533 was that when you arm Black soldiers, 827 00:42:05,533 --> 00:42:08,933 that well, they won't follow orders. 828 00:42:08,933 --> 00:42:10,100 They're not trainable. 829 00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:11,266 Well, it turned out 830 00:42:11,266 --> 00:42:13,066 that they were obviously highly trainable 831 00:42:13,066 --> 00:42:14,600 and excellent soldiers 832 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,333 and willing to die for the Union. 833 00:42:19,333 --> 00:42:21,666 So I think both men, 834 00:42:21,666 --> 00:42:24,933 both Lincoln and Douglass, got their wishes 835 00:42:24,933 --> 00:42:27,333 in some way at a very high price. 836 00:42:27,333 --> 00:42:30,366 But nevertheless, the war ended 837 00:42:31,833 --> 00:42:36,733 and the Union was preserved, and Black men had established 838 00:42:36,733 --> 00:42:40,133 that they deserved to be full citizens. 839 00:42:40,133 --> 00:42:41,733 - So at the end of the war, 840 00:42:41,733 --> 00:42:44,233 there of course has already been emancipation by then, 841 00:42:44,233 --> 00:42:47,433 14th Amendment a couple of years after that, 842 00:42:47,433 --> 00:42:54,433 which frees things up some more in African-American equality. 843 00:42:55,433 --> 00:42:59,333 But then what is Douglass's thrust? 844 00:42:59,333 --> 00:43:01,433 Does it have to do with racism 845 00:43:01,433 --> 00:43:05,933 and just more of what you might call a civil equality? 846 00:43:05,933 --> 00:43:08,266 - Yeah, he did dedicate himself 847 00:43:08,266 --> 00:43:11,166 to defining how Reconstruction would go 848 00:43:11,166 --> 00:43:14,233 and should go for the South in terms 849 00:43:14,233 --> 00:43:19,300 of how those formerly enslaved people would be treated. 850 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:24,366 And initially, things in Reconstruction went pretty well 851 00:43:24,366 --> 00:43:27,866 in terms of establishing land for Black people 852 00:43:27,866 --> 00:43:29,500 and property and so on. 853 00:43:30,866 --> 00:43:33,200 But the minute the war was over, 854 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:34,900 Douglass was concerned about that, 855 00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:39,066 and in addition, getting the vote for Black men, 856 00:43:39,066 --> 00:43:41,800 which infuriated Elizabeth Cady Stanton 857 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,466 and the women's rights movement 858 00:43:43,466 --> 00:43:46,600 because Douglass was one of the only men at Seneca, 859 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,733 well, was the only man at Seneca Falls in 1848 860 00:43:49,733 --> 00:43:51,866 at the Women's Convention that produced 861 00:43:51,866 --> 00:43:53,100 the Declaration of Sentiments, 862 00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:56,600 which declared women's right to the vote. 863 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:01,733 He signed that declaration and was supporting suffrage 864 00:44:01,733 --> 00:44:03,066 from that point forward. 865 00:44:03,066 --> 00:44:06,066 But when the war ended, he said, "Time out." 866 00:44:06,066 --> 00:44:08,466 Not quite that way, much more eloquently, 867 00:44:08,466 --> 00:44:10,800 but he talked to Elizabeth Cady Stanton-- 868 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,500 Actually, they debated about this publicly 869 00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:16,566 and why he would privilege, so to speak, 870 00:44:16,566 --> 00:44:19,233 the Black vote, the Black men's vote. 871 00:44:19,233 --> 00:44:20,900 He promised Elizabeth Cady Stanton 872 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:23,366 and other leaders of the women's suffrage movement 873 00:44:23,366 --> 00:44:25,933 that once the vote was secured, 874 00:44:25,933 --> 00:44:29,000 he would return to the women's suffrage movement, 875 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,633 which is what he did. 876 00:44:30,633 --> 00:44:34,933 They got the amendment in place, Black men could vote, 877 00:44:36,166 --> 00:44:39,566 and that was a key to citizenship for Douglass, 878 00:44:39,566 --> 00:44:41,366 and it was a key element for that. 879 00:44:41,366 --> 00:44:43,066 Of course, we all know what happened 880 00:44:43,066 --> 00:44:45,433 in terms of, specifically in the South, 881 00:44:45,433 --> 00:44:47,833 making it very difficult for Black people to vote. 882 00:44:47,833 --> 00:44:50,833 - In practical terms, poll taxes and violence. 883 00:44:50,833 --> 00:44:52,366 - But the amendment was in place, 884 00:44:52,366 --> 00:44:54,566 and so post-Civil War, 885 00:44:54,566 --> 00:44:56,766 and this is a period that, again, 886 00:44:56,766 --> 00:44:59,300 has been very carefully studied. 887 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:03,700 Douglass sets his sights on basically how to... 888 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:08,766 How do African Americans advance themselves 889 00:45:08,766 --> 00:45:10,666 in this society? 890 00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:14,333 And he identified education as a critical component of that. 891 00:45:14,333 --> 00:45:16,966 In fact, he actually was an advocate 892 00:45:16,966 --> 00:45:20,966 for technical education, which was more with the trades. 893 00:45:20,966 --> 00:45:23,366 That infuriated some of the Black leaders, 894 00:45:23,366 --> 00:45:24,800 as you can imagine, 895 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:30,066 who wanted more liberal arts, in today's language, education. 896 00:45:30,066 --> 00:45:31,533 But Douglass was practical. 897 00:45:31,533 --> 00:45:33,866 He said, "If we could get jobs, 898 00:45:33,866 --> 00:45:40,366 as, like, apprenticeships and so on, we can advance the race." 899 00:45:40,366 --> 00:45:42,100 - And that's still the thinking today, 900 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:43,333 whether Black or white. 901 00:45:43,333 --> 00:45:45,800 Who knows the apprenticeship, the trade. 902 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,800 - So that was one thing he did. 903 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,633 He was an advocate for education. 904 00:45:50,633 --> 00:45:53,166 He was also an advocate for one of his key terms, 905 00:45:53,166 --> 00:45:54,966 which was self-reliance. 906 00:45:54,966 --> 00:45:57,366 He saw himself as self-reliant, 907 00:45:57,366 --> 00:46:01,100 and he wanted other Black Americans 908 00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:03,166 to be self-reliant. 909 00:46:03,166 --> 00:46:08,233 We cannot depend on the white population. 910 00:46:08,233 --> 00:46:10,366 We need to advance ourselves. 911 00:46:10,366 --> 00:46:13,000 - Well, that's in keeping with the philosophy 912 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,133 of the American frontier, self-reliance. 913 00:46:16,133 --> 00:46:19,000 - Self-reliance and the self-made man. 914 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,666 He saw himself as self-made. 915 00:46:20,666 --> 00:46:23,533 Although he had lots of help along the way, 916 00:46:23,533 --> 00:46:26,000 he, in essence, was a self-made man. 917 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,900 Studied vigorously, spoke a number of different languages, 918 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:32,133 never stopped learning. 919 00:46:32,133 --> 00:46:34,733 And that's why it's so hard, to this day, 920 00:46:34,733 --> 00:46:36,400 that's why he invites so much study 921 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,966 because he was so complex, so interesting and intriguing. 922 00:46:40,966 --> 00:46:46,033 But no one ever doubted his courage and his persistence. 923 00:46:48,133 --> 00:46:52,166 He was relentless when it came to anything he took hold of. 924 00:46:52,166 --> 00:46:54,700 - In your book though, speaking of self-made 925 00:46:54,700 --> 00:47:00,166 versus with some assistance, you do have a charming vignette 926 00:47:00,166 --> 00:47:02,766 where he's doing all these speaking tours 927 00:47:02,766 --> 00:47:05,633 and his wife is sending his clothes 928 00:47:05,633 --> 00:47:07,600 after she's getting the clothes taken care of 929 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,100 and mailing them to him. 930 00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:14,066 - Yeah, that account, in his world as an abolitionist, 931 00:47:14,066 --> 00:47:17,666 came from his daughter, Rosetta, his oldest daughter. 932 00:47:17,666 --> 00:47:19,266 He had two daughters. 933 00:47:19,266 --> 00:47:24,666 Annie died at the age of 10, but Rosetta grew into adulthood, 934 00:47:24,666 --> 00:47:27,300 and Rosetta wrote this beautiful piece 935 00:47:28,866 --> 00:47:32,533 in the 20th century, reflecting on her mother. 936 00:47:32,533 --> 00:47:35,033 And in that is a beautiful description 937 00:47:35,033 --> 00:47:38,900 of how she would know where he was gonna be 938 00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:41,366 because they published all of the itineraries. 939 00:47:41,366 --> 00:47:42,900 - Norman: Train schedules and itineraries. 940 00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:46,066 - And she would literally send him clean shirts 941 00:47:46,066 --> 00:47:49,533 and a fresh suit so that he would be at his best. 942 00:47:50,533 --> 00:47:51,866 He had so much support, 943 00:47:51,866 --> 00:47:58,666 and he credited his wife for her management of his family. 944 00:47:58,666 --> 00:47:59,866 He was always gone. 945 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,233 Well, gone, probably 10 months out of the year 946 00:48:04,233 --> 00:48:05,500 he was traveling. 947 00:48:06,533 --> 00:48:09,866 And he had children, of course, 948 00:48:09,866 --> 00:48:12,766 and she was the person who raised those children. 949 00:48:12,766 --> 00:48:14,733 She also was not literate. 950 00:48:14,733 --> 00:48:16,733 So that's the other part of this, 951 00:48:16,733 --> 00:48:21,366 that she had help in sending things to Douglass 952 00:48:21,366 --> 00:48:23,366 while he was on his way. 953 00:48:23,366 --> 00:48:25,100 When he went to England for two years, 954 00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,333 she was home with those children, 955 00:48:27,333 --> 00:48:29,700 pretty young children at the time. 956 00:48:29,700 --> 00:48:34,400 And so yeah, she was quite the partner 957 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,433 and played a very important role. 958 00:48:36,433 --> 00:48:39,166 - Can you give us some profiles then of the children 959 00:48:39,166 --> 00:48:41,566 that went into public service in particular? 960 00:48:41,566 --> 00:48:45,333 - Yeah, Rosetta, I don't know all the story 961 00:48:45,333 --> 00:48:47,966 of each of the children. 962 00:48:47,966 --> 00:48:51,266 I know that they all lived into adulthood, 963 00:48:51,266 --> 00:48:56,333 that two of them served in the Union Army. 964 00:48:57,333 --> 00:49:00,700 One, Frederick Douglass, Jr., was a writer 965 00:49:01,833 --> 00:49:05,966 and worked in Washington, D.C. 966 00:49:05,966 --> 00:49:07,333 It's kind of sketchy. 967 00:49:07,333 --> 00:49:11,733 I had the good fortune of meeting the descendant 968 00:49:11,733 --> 00:49:15,266 of Frederick Douglass, Jr., Frederick Douglass's son, 969 00:49:16,533 --> 00:49:20,333 at a conference I was attending in Washington, D.C. 970 00:49:20,333 --> 00:49:22,933 for new authors at the time, in the late 1990s 971 00:49:22,933 --> 00:49:24,800 as part of the Park Service. 972 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,100 Invited me and others to meet 973 00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:31,500 and then I had the good fortune of meeting the family, 974 00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:33,900 which took my breath away, honestly. 975 00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:35,900 But then we got on a bus in Washington, D.C. 976 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:39,333 and rode to the Eastern Shore, 977 00:49:39,333 --> 00:49:41,600 and we got to see the plantation. 978 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,600 And what was nice about that is the descendants 979 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,466 of the Lloyds and Frederick Douglass's descendants 980 00:49:47,466 --> 00:49:50,266 met for the first time. 981 00:49:50,266 --> 00:49:52,266 - Oh, really? - And I got to see that. 982 00:49:52,266 --> 00:49:54,666 It was really a wonderful moment. 983 00:49:54,666 --> 00:49:57,900 And again, just to see where, 984 00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:00,666 "the big house" is what Douglass called it 985 00:50:00,666 --> 00:50:02,900 is still standing, as is... 986 00:50:02,900 --> 00:50:04,333 The slave quarters are gone, 987 00:50:04,333 --> 00:50:07,666 but the foundations are there, so you can see it all. 988 00:50:07,666 --> 00:50:10,866 - And one of his other sons then, 989 00:50:10,866 --> 00:50:13,533 I guess both of them were both in the military, 990 00:50:13,533 --> 00:50:15,200 but also later involved 991 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:20,133 in what would be called African-American improvement. 992 00:50:20,133 --> 00:50:21,300 - Yes, that's right. 993 00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:23,700 They were very much engaged in that effort, 994 00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:26,566 led in part by their father, 995 00:50:26,566 --> 00:50:29,300 who kept insisting on, "Let's keep improving. 996 00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:32,466 Let's overcome these stereotypes." 997 00:50:32,466 --> 00:50:36,366 - He did have some controversy later on in the family, 998 00:50:36,366 --> 00:50:41,166 didn't he, in his own particular sphere. 999 00:50:41,166 --> 00:50:46,233 - Right, Anna Murray Douglass died in the late 1880s. 1000 00:50:47,433 --> 00:50:48,866 Two or three years later, 1001 00:50:48,866 --> 00:50:52,900 Douglass married Helen Pitts Douglass, Helen Pitts, 1002 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:56,200 and that was very controversial. 1003 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,800 Obviously she is a white woman, 1004 00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:03,033 and Douglass was very clear about this. 1005 00:51:03,033 --> 00:51:06,833 He said, if he had to justify it publicly, he always said, 1006 00:51:06,833 --> 00:51:12,166 "My first wife, I followed the lineage of my mother. 1007 00:51:12,166 --> 00:51:15,300 My second wife, I followed the lineage of my father." 1008 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,766 - It's a very rational way of looking at it. 1009 00:51:17,766 --> 00:51:19,600 - That's how he would frame it, 1010 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,700 but Helen was absolutely important 1011 00:51:23,700 --> 00:51:28,033 because after Frederick Douglass died in 1895, 1012 00:51:28,033 --> 00:51:33,000 she was responsible for preserving his legacy. 1013 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:39,900 She was the one that made sure that the house was preserved, 1014 00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:43,533 that the Library of Congress received his papers, 1015 00:51:44,966 --> 00:51:51,966 that his world would be absolutely honored 1016 00:51:51,966 --> 00:51:53,600 in the future. 1017 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,933 And she was, like Douglass, relentless in that pursuit. 1018 00:51:56,933 --> 00:51:59,800 - And I think her father, if I remember correctly, 1019 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,800 never spoke to her again and disinherited her 1020 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,333 as soon as she married Douglass. 1021 00:52:04,333 --> 00:52:10,466 - And Douglass's sons and daughter, the same thing, 1022 00:52:10,466 --> 00:52:14,133 except over time, they did reconcile. 1023 00:52:15,133 --> 00:52:17,000 But Douglass was, again, 1024 00:52:18,366 --> 00:52:23,266 he had a very strong sense of the personal, 1025 00:52:23,266 --> 00:52:26,966 so it's always hard to know what he was thinking. 1026 00:52:26,966 --> 00:52:28,966 But he certainly, when he got on the platform, 1027 00:52:28,966 --> 00:52:32,200 let you know in no uncertain terms that 1028 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,833 this was a very loving relationship. 1029 00:52:34,833 --> 00:52:38,500 And to him, it kind of lived out his vision 1030 00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:42,233 of equality and integration. 1031 00:52:42,233 --> 00:52:43,833 - Blur those lines-- - Blur those lines, 1032 00:52:43,833 --> 00:52:47,966 and we're all equal, we're all whole human beings. 1033 00:52:47,966 --> 00:52:51,866 He was a humanist at heart, and he lived that 1034 00:52:51,866 --> 00:52:55,000 and demonstrated it very clearly throughout his life 1035 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,566 and even in his personal life believed in that. 1036 00:52:58,566 --> 00:53:01,633 - In terms of his legacy, how would you describe it? 1037 00:53:01,633 --> 00:53:04,233 And of course, we've mentioned his family members 1038 00:53:04,233 --> 00:53:06,300 who followed in that path to a great extent, 1039 00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:09,766 but in a larger sense, how would you describe the legacy 1040 00:53:09,766 --> 00:53:12,300 of Frederick Douglass? 1041 00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:14,133 - I think Frederick Douglass, 1042 00:53:15,566 --> 00:53:19,700 that's a tough question for me because there's so much legacy. 1043 00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:25,100 I think just in terms of leadership and vision, 1044 00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:29,333 he provides a case study in how to lead 1045 00:53:29,333 --> 00:53:34,600 even when you're not respected, that you can earn respect, 1046 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,833 and that there's a pathway to that. 1047 00:53:37,833 --> 00:53:41,100 And that is to stay true to yourself 1048 00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:45,800 and to hold up the values that you believe in 1049 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,166 and root them, as he did, in touchstone documents 1050 00:53:50,166 --> 00:53:52,433 like the Declaration of Independence, 1051 00:53:52,433 --> 00:53:54,666 and to root them in the Bible 1052 00:53:54,666 --> 00:53:58,300 because there are lots of biblical references 1053 00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:00,100 in his speeches. 1054 00:54:00,100 --> 00:54:04,300 And I think the key point is never lose hope. 1055 00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:09,033 He was an eternal optimist against tremendous odds. 1056 00:54:09,033 --> 00:54:11,466 Not only odds in terms of his color, 1057 00:54:11,466 --> 00:54:15,933 but just odds in terms of being successful and staying alive 1058 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,833 and continuing to fight for equality. 1059 00:54:21,833 --> 00:54:23,866 - There's this great kind of farewell image 1060 00:54:23,866 --> 00:54:26,100 of Douglass in his library. 1061 00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:28,500 - Greg: One of my favorite pictures. 1062 00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:32,266 - Norman: Says so much about him in his last years. 1063 00:54:32,266 --> 00:54:37,333 - Greg: The final day of his life, which was, let's see, 1064 00:54:37,333 --> 00:54:40,566 it was February 20, 1895. 1065 00:54:40,566 --> 00:54:45,433 He had returned from a women's suffrage conference 1066 00:54:45,433 --> 00:54:50,500 in Washington, D.C. for dinner, and he was going to go back, 1067 00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:54,866 and as he was leaving his home, walked down his hallway, 1068 00:54:54,866 --> 00:54:56,466 he collapsed and died. 1069 00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:02,233 But what's important about that is up to his final day, 1070 00:55:03,233 --> 00:55:05,400 he was still working. - Still working. 1071 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:06,900 - And in this case, 1072 00:55:06,900 --> 00:55:11,000 he was working for women's right to vote. 1073 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,200 But prior to that, even the month prior to that, 1074 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,066 he was also traveling with Ida B. Wells, 1075 00:55:16,066 --> 00:55:20,166 a prominent African-American woman who was fighting against, 1076 00:55:20,166 --> 00:55:22,400 documenting lynchings in the South 1077 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:23,733 and fighting lynchings, 1078 00:55:23,733 --> 00:55:28,100 and she had inspired Douglass to join her in that fight. 1079 00:55:28,100 --> 00:55:29,800 So he had really two areas 1080 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,466 that he was heavily engaged in right up until his death. 1081 00:55:33,466 --> 00:55:36,566 And that was his fight against lynchings, 1082 00:55:36,566 --> 00:55:39,100 which was like a terrorist act. 1083 00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:40,366 - An ongoing struggle 1084 00:55:40,366 --> 00:55:42,266 that would continue well into the 20th century. 1085 00:55:42,266 --> 00:55:44,266 - And really tied specifically to the South. 1086 00:55:44,266 --> 00:55:49,166 And then women's suffrage, which was a national issue. 1087 00:55:49,166 --> 00:55:53,066 And so, yeah, I think his legacy is one of commitment, 1088 00:55:53,066 --> 00:55:56,233 perseverance, and living out your vision. 1089 00:55:56,233 --> 00:55:59,366 I think it's a tremendous life that he had. 1090 00:55:59,366 --> 00:56:02,233 And that picture of him at his desk. 1091 00:56:02,233 --> 00:56:06,033 Again, studying Douglass, I was able to get access 1092 00:56:06,033 --> 00:56:10,100 to his library beyond where it's kind of cordoned off, 1093 00:56:10,100 --> 00:56:12,866 and got a complete listing of the books in his library. 1094 00:56:12,866 --> 00:56:16,066 And his books are as varied as his background, 1095 00:56:16,066 --> 00:56:20,766 history and language and culture and philosophy. 1096 00:56:20,766 --> 00:56:24,133 I mean, if you were a proponent of the liberal arts, 1097 00:56:24,133 --> 00:56:27,833 he was a liberally educated man. 1098 00:56:27,833 --> 00:56:29,433 - And is his house still there? 1099 00:56:29,433 --> 00:56:31,333 - Yes, his house is still there. 1100 00:56:32,633 --> 00:56:36,966 It's part of the national parks now in Anacostia, 1101 00:56:36,966 --> 00:56:39,000 and you can visit, it's just right outside, 1102 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,966 like 15 miles from Washington, D.C., and it's intact. 1103 00:56:42,966 --> 00:56:47,066 It's a wonderful experience to go there. 1104 00:56:47,066 --> 00:56:50,866 The other thing that they did build in the back of his house 1105 00:56:50,866 --> 00:56:54,466 was the grotto, where he used to write... 1106 00:56:54,466 --> 00:56:56,966 It wasn't there, but they recreated it. 1107 00:56:56,966 --> 00:56:59,133 And it's a little area where he would go 1108 00:56:59,133 --> 00:57:00,866 to escape his family to write. 1109 00:57:00,866 --> 00:57:04,700 And in one corner of that grotto is a standup desk, 1110 00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:07,566 where he would write his speeches standing up 1111 00:57:07,566 --> 00:57:09,733 because he would deliver them standing up. 1112 00:57:09,733 --> 00:57:12,400 - Good idea. - And then he had a little, 1113 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,900 like what would be like a couch and a fireplace. 1114 00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:17,800 So on one end was a fireplace, a couch, 1115 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,166 and then a standing desk where he would write his speeches. 1116 00:57:21,166 --> 00:57:22,766 And I asked if I could see it 1117 00:57:22,766 --> 00:57:25,100 'cause I had read about it, it was in Rochester. 1118 00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:27,633 He had that same setup. 1119 00:57:27,633 --> 00:57:29,633 And they said, "Oh, yeah, we can take you back. 1120 00:57:29,633 --> 00:57:31,100 We don't take many people back there." 1121 00:57:31,100 --> 00:57:32,333 And when I went in there, 1122 00:57:32,333 --> 00:57:34,666 everything kind of fell right into place. 1123 00:57:34,666 --> 00:57:37,633 I just felt so blessed to be able to see that, 1124 00:57:37,633 --> 00:57:39,733 but it gave me another picture of Douglass 1125 00:57:39,733 --> 00:57:41,866 besides the picture of him at his desk writing, 1126 00:57:41,866 --> 00:57:45,533 which he did extensively all the time, 1127 00:57:45,533 --> 00:57:46,766 never stopped writing. 1128 00:57:46,766 --> 00:57:48,033 But then to see 1129 00:57:48,033 --> 00:57:50,333 where he would write his speeches, a facsimile, 1130 00:57:50,333 --> 00:57:53,466 but nevertheless, a accurate reproduction 1131 00:57:53,466 --> 00:57:54,866 was really inspiring. 1132 00:57:54,866 --> 00:57:58,600 - Greg Lampe, a pleasure to share the life 1133 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,100 and story of Frederick Douglass. 1134 00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:02,566 - Yeah, thank you so much for having me, it's a pleasure. 1135 00:58:02,566 --> 00:58:03,966 - Greg Lampe is the author 1136 00:58:03,966 --> 00:58:07,400 of Frederick Douglass: Freedom's Voice. 1137 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:08,566 I'm Norman Gilliland. 1138 00:58:08,566 --> 00:58:10,366 I hope you can join me next time around 1139 00:58:10,366 --> 00:58:12,433 for University Place Presents.