WEBVTT 00:02.433 --> 00:04.300 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75% - Welcome to University Place Presents. 00:04.300 --> 00:05.900 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65% I'm Norman Gilliland. 00:05.900 --> 00:09.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% His life story reads like a novel by Alexander Dumas: 00:09.433 --> 00:12.833 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5% born into slavery, disguised, escaped, 00:12.833 --> 00:15.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% looking over his shoulder all the while, 00:15.433 --> 00:17.300 align:left position:32.5% line:5% size:57.5% fearing that he might be recaptured 00:17.300 --> 00:19.800 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5% and sold back into bondage. 00:19.800 --> 00:21.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Becoming an orator 00:21.466 --> 00:24.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and one of the great voices for freedom in this country 00:24.333 --> 00:26.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% during one of its pivotal moments. 00:26.500 --> 00:29.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Rose to the highest levels of recognition, 00:29.066 --> 00:32.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% met with the President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln, 00:32.400 --> 00:34.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and went on to live a long 00:34.033 --> 00:37.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and fruitful life as a voice of freedom. 00:37.166 --> 00:38.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% His name, Frederick Douglass, 00:38.466 --> 00:41.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and he's the subject of a book by my guest, Greg Lampe, 00:41.866 --> 00:43.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% who is a former provost 00:43.466 --> 00:45.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of the University of Wisconsin Colleges, 00:45.666 --> 00:49.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%   and author of Frederick Douglass: Freedom's Voice. 00:49.300 --> 00:51.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Welcome to University Place Presents. 00:51.033 --> 00:52.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Greg: Yeah, thank you, nice to be here. 00:54.033 --> 00:56.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - We know a lot about Frederick Douglass 00:56.233 --> 01:01.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% because Frederick Douglass wrote a lot about himself. 01:01.066 --> 01:02.966 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Three autobiographies? 01:02.966 --> 01:04.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Correct, yeah. 01:04.400 --> 01:07.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - And what does he tell us in these? 01:07.100 --> 01:10.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Do they compare, the facts line up from one to the next? 01:10.933 --> 01:15.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yeah, overall, yes, the facts line up. 01:15.800 --> 01:21.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% What's interesting about looking at the autobiographies 01:21.200 --> 01:24.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% is that they take place in different periods of time. 01:24.600 --> 01:28.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So the first autobiography was written in 1845, 01:28.166 --> 01:30.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%   just years after Douglass had escaped from slavery 01:30.833 --> 01:34.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and was a fugitive for seven years or so. 01:34.500 --> 01:37.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And he was writing about primarily 01:37.166 --> 01:39.533 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that period, obviously. 01:39.533 --> 01:41.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So he talked a lot about 01:41.133 --> 01:45.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% where he was born on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, 01:45.133 --> 01:47.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% who had enslaved him, 01:47.033 --> 01:52.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and actually disclosed the names of the plantation owners 01:52.433 --> 01:54.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and the overseers. 01:54.233 --> 01:56.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And that was pretty risky considering his fugitive status, 01:56.900 --> 01:58.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which we can talk about. 01:58.233 --> 02:02.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% His second autobiography was written in 1855, 02:02.433 --> 02:05.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%   and in that autobiography, he details more. 02:05.366 --> 02:11.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% He still recaptures all the details of his enslavement, 02:11.300 --> 02:13.733 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but then he also details his life 02:13.733 --> 02:15.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as a abolitionist orator 02:15.966 --> 02:20.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and his frustrations with the lack of progress 02:20.900 --> 02:26.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% for emancipating the slaves and moving the country forward. 02:26.800 --> 02:28.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And then his last autobiography, 02:28.366 --> 02:31.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% which took on two different versions, 02:32.433 --> 02:35.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% about five to six years apart, 02:35.066 --> 02:42.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% really detail his entire life from 1818 to 1893 or so. 02:42.833 --> 02:46.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And then he died, of course, in 1895. 02:46.300 --> 02:50.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% In there, he discloses how he escaped from slavery 02:50.833 --> 02:54.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and his stances about women's suffrage, 02:54.433 --> 02:58.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and particularly his work against lynchings at the time 02:58.100 --> 03:00.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% because that had become a real issue 03:00.233 --> 03:03.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% following the Reconstruction period. 03:03.533 --> 03:08.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So he did evolve his... 03:08.133 --> 03:09.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% How I wanna put this? 03:09.533 --> 03:13.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% His story in his autobiographies evolved as he evolved, 03:14.866 --> 03:17.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and became more nuanced, 03:17.233 --> 03:19.666 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and at times, a little more impatient. 03:19.666 --> 03:21.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And also always an eye, 03:21.333 --> 03:23.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% as it was the tradition in 19th century, 03:23.200 --> 03:27.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% an eye toward his legacy, which he was very sensitive about, 03:27.633 --> 03:30.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and wanted to create sort of the image 03:30.800 --> 03:35.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of this heroic figure, which obviously he still is today. 03:35.266 --> 03:38.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So it worked, and he was heroic in many, many ways. 03:38.766 --> 03:41.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - How much did he know about his own origins? 03:41.333 --> 03:42.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - He didn't know a lot. 03:45.100 --> 03:48.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% He was born on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. 03:48.933 --> 03:50.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% He never knew his birth date. 03:50.900 --> 03:55.333 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% He estimated it to be around 1817, 03:55.333 --> 03:56.933 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and he guessed it was February 03:56.933 --> 03:59.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% because the last time he saw his mother, 03:59.366 --> 04:01.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% 'cause he had been separated from his mother, 04:01.133 --> 04:04.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% which was a practice during slavery. 04:05.433 --> 04:09.200 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% He was born to an enslaved mother and so he was a slave, 04:09.200 --> 04:12.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the last visit he had with his mother was in February 04:12.733 --> 04:14.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% when he was about seven years old. 04:14.500 --> 04:18.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And she had brought him cake, 04:18.200 --> 04:20.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and it was the last time he saw her. 04:20.000 --> 04:21.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so he determined, 04:21.633 --> 04:25.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% "I must have been born in February of 1817." 04:25.433 --> 04:29.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Later on, scholars would say he was close. 04:29.300 --> 04:32.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% He was actually born in February 1818. 04:32.500 --> 04:34.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And so he knew his mother. 04:34.066 --> 04:36.066 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% He didn't know who his father was. 04:36.066 --> 04:39.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% In his autobiographies, this is an interesting shift, 04:39.033 --> 04:42.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% or early on, he said, well, he had heard rumors 04:42.200 --> 04:47.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that his father was his master, Aaron Anthony. 04:47.133 --> 04:50.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Over time, he distanced himself from that 04:50.233 --> 04:54.200 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% to it could be a white man in 1855. 04:54.200 --> 04:57.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And then, well, he didn't hardly mention it 04:57.533 --> 04:59.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% in the last autobiography. 05:00.833 --> 05:03.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So yeah, so his origins were on the Eastern Shore. 05:03.600 --> 05:04.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And the Eastern Shore, 05:04.800 --> 05:06.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% what's important to note about that is 05:06.600 --> 05:09.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% it was an area rich in slavery. 05:09.633 --> 05:14.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And Douglass's family, his clan, had been on the Eastern Shore 05:14.633 --> 05:17.466 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% for over 100 years before he was born. 05:17.466 --> 05:21.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So the Bailey clan had very deep roots, 05:21.600 --> 05:24.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% literally and figuratively in the Eastern Shore. 05:24.633 --> 05:26.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - And the name Bailey, he took from-- 05:26.966 --> 05:28.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - From the clan. 05:28.333 --> 05:30.500 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% - The clan. - Yeah, from his clan. 05:30.500 --> 05:34.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - And what were his earliest memories then 05:34.233 --> 05:39.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% of being a slave and what he did as a slave 05:39.033 --> 05:41.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on this plantation on the Eastern Shore of Maryland? 05:41.666 --> 05:44.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - His earliest memories are living in a cabin 05:44.866 --> 05:51.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% with about 20 other siblings and cousins at a cabin 05:51.366 --> 05:54.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% where his grandmother was the one in charge, 05:54.800 --> 05:56.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% his Grandma Bailey, 05:56.200 --> 05:59.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% who he writes about very lovingly in his autobiography. 05:59.833 --> 06:02.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% She was a fisherperson by trade, 06:02.833 --> 06:06.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and she was charged with taking care of the younger... 06:06.633 --> 06:10.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% The newly-born children into slavery. 06:10.833 --> 06:13.666 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% He was there for about seven years. 06:13.666 --> 06:15.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And then in that time, 06:15.633 --> 06:18.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% he didn't even know he was a slave. 06:18.400 --> 06:20.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% He had a happy childhood there. 06:20.266 --> 06:22.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And he recalls that with great fondness. 06:22.533 --> 06:24.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Then at seven years old, 06:24.533 --> 06:28.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% he's moved to the Lloyd plantation, 06:28.000 --> 06:30.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% which is a large enterprise. 06:30.300 --> 06:32.466 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Hundreds of slaves-- - Still in Maryland. 06:32.466 --> 06:35.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Still in Maryland, still on the Eastern Shore. 06:35.933 --> 06:39.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so he is exposed for the first time 06:39.766 --> 06:44.133 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to the whole notion of slavery, a traumatic, of course, 06:44.133 --> 06:45.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% departure from his grandmother, 06:45.666 --> 06:48.633 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% who leaves him at the plantation. 06:48.633 --> 06:54.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And there, he witnesses the brutality of slavery, 06:54.033 --> 06:57.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% which he recalls, of course, later on in his speeches, 06:57.666 --> 06:59.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% his anti-slavery speeches. 06:59.266 --> 07:02.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He also experiences hunger for the first time 07:02.233 --> 07:05.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% 'cause he wasn't always the obedient person. 07:05.800 --> 07:09.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He was from the beginning had his very independent 07:09.100 --> 07:11.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and strong-willed, which doesn't surprise anyone 07:11.400 --> 07:13.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% who's read about Douglass. 07:13.100 --> 07:16.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And he experiences mostly hunger and cold 07:16.466 --> 07:18.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% during that period. 07:18.166 --> 07:22.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But he's also brought into the home of the Lloyds 07:22.600 --> 07:26.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and allowed to be what is sometimes called a house slave. 07:26.900 --> 07:29.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I think in that environment, 07:29.633 --> 07:34.366 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% he hears a lot of white people talking about different issues. 07:34.366 --> 07:38.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so he doesn't develop this plantation, Southern, 07:38.766 --> 07:42.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% strong Southern drawl or accent, dialect 07:42.733 --> 07:44.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because one of the things that follows him 07:44.900 --> 07:48.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% onto the stage when he gets up to speak is that, wow, 07:48.833 --> 07:50.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% he doesn't sound like a slave. 07:50.900 --> 07:52.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He's way too articulate. 07:52.233 --> 07:54.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He's way too polished. 07:54.866 --> 07:56.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - He doesn't have the accent. 07:56.133 --> 07:58.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Doesn't have the accent. 07:58.366 --> 08:02.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% But anyway, that's his first seven years is spent there. 08:02.166 --> 08:04.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And then as he grows a little bit older, 08:04.400 --> 08:10.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's sent by his slave overseer, Aaron Anthony, 08:10.066 --> 08:14.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to Baltimore to live with a brother-in-law. 08:14.633 --> 08:18.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% That was a huge move for Douglass. 08:18.133 --> 08:20.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - For the better? - For the better, absolutely. 08:20.866 --> 08:25.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Away from the plantation with all its ugliness 08:25.800 --> 08:27.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% in terms of how people were... 08:27.766 --> 08:30.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% How enslaved people were treated to Baltimore, Maryland, 08:30.900 --> 08:34.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% where in Baltimore, there's a large free Black... 08:34.000 --> 08:36.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Well, not free, there's a large free Black population. 08:36.866 --> 08:41.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% There's also a pretty large enslaved population. 08:41.266 --> 08:44.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And his primary role in Baltimore, 08:44.333 --> 08:46.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% at least initially, was to be a friend 08:46.833 --> 08:54.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and brother to the son of Sophia and the Aulds. 08:54.333 --> 08:59.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so Tommy was the boy's name, and he befriended Tommy, 08:59.600 --> 09:02.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and he basically hung out with him 09:02.400 --> 09:04.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and was a companion. 09:04.400 --> 09:09.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And so Hugh and Sophia treated him not like a son, 09:09.233 --> 09:15.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but he had all the comforts of a home and enjoyed that. 09:15.233 --> 09:18.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - So at the age of seven or so, he was just a companion 09:18.466 --> 09:21.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% to his master's son in Baltimore. 09:21.533 --> 09:22.700 align:left position:40% line:71% size:50% - Right. 09:22.700 --> 09:23.966 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Sounds great. - Yeah. 09:23.966 --> 09:26.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And then at the age of 12, as again, 09:26.200 --> 09:30.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% he continues to evolve and get increasingly restless, 09:30.666 --> 09:32.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% as you can imagine, a 12-year-old would. 09:33.933 --> 09:36.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And Tommy's in school and being educated, 09:36.700 --> 09:40.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and his question was, "Well, why am I not being educated? 09:40.233 --> 09:43.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Everybody around me is being educated." 09:43.666 --> 09:49.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so in the evening when Sophia would be reading 09:49.166 --> 09:52.366 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% from the Bible or a book to her son, 09:52.366 --> 09:55.366 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% he would sit and listen to her read. 09:55.366 --> 09:58.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And finally he asked her, "Could you please teach me to read?" 09:58.833 --> 10:02.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And she did, which at the time was a risk 10:02.300 --> 10:06.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% because enslaved people were not supposed to learn to read. 10:06.066 --> 10:07.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - There were, I believe, 10:07.433 --> 10:09.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% some laws against it in some states. 10:09.766 --> 10:12.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yeah, and Baltimore was among those, 10:12.000 --> 10:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Maryland was among those, 10:13.233 --> 10:16.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and so at great risk, she taught him to... 10:16.066 --> 10:17.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Started teaching him to read 10:17.233 --> 10:20.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% until Hugh Auld, her husband, found out 10:20.600 --> 10:23.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and then it ended abruptly. 10:23.966 --> 10:26.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But the foundation had been laid. 10:27.233 --> 10:29.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - And of course, her husband was concerned, 10:29.066 --> 10:34.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% as everyone was with these laws, that teaching a slave to read 10:34.233 --> 10:38.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% would then encourage that slave to freedom, seek freedom. 10:38.766 --> 10:41.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Exactly, and that's true for Douglass especially. 10:41.766 --> 10:47.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Early on, he realized that this was pretty freeing. 10:47.166 --> 10:49.466 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% The other thing that he found really important 10:49.466 --> 10:56.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% during this period was his master's wife, Sophia, 10:56.566 --> 10:58.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% would also read from the Bible, 10:58.633 --> 11:00.766 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% and mostly from the Old Testament. 11:00.766 --> 11:03.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So he started getting grounded, like in the story of Job, 11:03.633 --> 11:05.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% which he talks a lot about. 11:05.233 --> 11:07.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Norman: Patience. - That there are other people 11:07.200 --> 11:09.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% who have to carry heavy burdens. 11:09.400 --> 11:10.666 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Perseverance. 11:10.666 --> 11:14.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Perseverance, and then there's redemption and hope. 11:14.800 --> 11:18.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% So this was a very formative period for him. 11:18.466 --> 11:20.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And among the most formative events, 11:20.933 --> 11:25.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and if I failed to mention this, this would be really not good. 11:26.333 --> 11:29.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% He discovered   The Columbian Orator, 11:29.533 --> 11:33.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% a textbook at the time about oratory, 11:33.433 --> 11:35.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% which also was designed 11:35.100 --> 11:38.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% to give young schoolchildren a chance 11:38.400 --> 11:39.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to read about the morals 11:39.900 --> 11:43.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and virtues of a free society, of a republic. 11:43.533 --> 11:45.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - So he saw maybe some irony in that? 11:45.566 --> 11:47.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - I'm sure he did. 11:47.166 --> 11:50.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And because he had been learning to read 11:50.366 --> 11:54.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and developing his reading skills, 11:54.000 --> 11:57.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% he could read out of that book, a very popular textbook 11:57.766 --> 12:02.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of actually 18th and 19th century by Caleb Bingham. 12:02.300 --> 12:03.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And Bingham was a former schoolteacher. 12:03.800 --> 12:06.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% He had a bookstore in Baltimore. 12:06.200 --> 12:08.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He was really dedicated 12:08.400 --> 12:12.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to instructing the young people of the nation, 12:12.266 --> 12:16.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% both boys and girls, by the way. - Oh, that's unusual. 12:16.166 --> 12:17.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - About the virtues of the republic. 12:17.766 --> 12:21.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so the first 20 pages or so of that book 12:21.233 --> 12:23.666 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% are dedicated to the art of oratory, 12:23.666 --> 12:25.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or what he called the art of eloquence. 12:25.766 --> 12:30.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Subsequently, he has randomly put in place 12:30.300 --> 12:34.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% orations, dialogues, great writings. 12:34.033 --> 12:36.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% George Washington's in there, 12:36.666 --> 12:41.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% the great leaders in Europe and in Great Britain, 12:41.833 --> 12:47.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% all around the notion of liberty and justice and freedom. 12:47.333 --> 12:49.766 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - And it's easy to overlook today 12:49.766 --> 12:52.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% with so many media options, 12:52.266 --> 12:55.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the importance of oratory in the 19th century 12:55.933 --> 12:58.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of not just in getting a message across, 12:58.166 --> 13:00.800 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% but as a way of bringing people together 13:00.800 --> 13:02.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and even entertainment. 13:02.533 --> 13:07.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - That's right, and it was called the Golden Age of Oratory 13:07.533 --> 13:11.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% because oratory was the means of communication 13:11.766 --> 13:16.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% in terms of debating the merits of proposals, 13:16.200 --> 13:19.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% in terms of entertainment, as you mentioned. 13:19.966 --> 13:23.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% The Lyceum was a very big deal in the 19th century, 13:23.900 --> 13:28.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% where you would get speakers of all cuts 13:28.433 --> 13:32.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and from all over the United States speaking 13:32.500 --> 13:35.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% for the purpose of entertaining or educating. 13:35.733 --> 13:37.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% It was just part of the culture. 13:38.633 --> 13:43.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - And as he learns oratory, what is the situation for, 13:43.900 --> 13:46.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% we'll still call him Frederick Bailey at this point? 13:46.766 --> 13:57.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - He is still in Baltimore and he is now able to recite... 13:57.766 --> 13:59.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% The whole notion of The Columbian Orator 13:59.733 --> 14:03.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% was you memorize these pieces and you recite them, 14:03.033 --> 14:07.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and you learn the language of liberation, basically. 14:07.633 --> 14:09.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so he's learning that language, 14:09.633 --> 14:11.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and he's also learning about what it means 14:11.700 --> 14:14.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% to be an effective orator. 14:14.533 --> 14:17.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% So write down the hand gestures 14:17.100 --> 14:20.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and how to organize a speech, and it was really important 14:20.766 --> 14:23.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% to be conversational and natural. 14:23.200 --> 14:27.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% All these words fit Douglass as he emerges from slavery. 14:27.233 --> 14:30.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - His life from a slave, though, his life as a slave, 14:30.666 --> 14:32.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% clearly there's a turning point... 14:32.000 --> 14:33.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% There would be a turning point in the life 14:33.900 --> 14:37.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of any slave who escapes, says, "Now, it's time to go." 14:37.366 --> 14:39.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yep, so at the age of 12, 14:41.600 --> 14:45.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% his overseer dies on the Eastern Shore, 14:45.166 --> 14:48.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and he's brought back to the Eastern Shore 14:48.133 --> 14:49.933 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% because they're going divide up now 14:49.933 --> 14:51.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the slaves that he owned. 14:52.966 --> 14:54.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% That was Aaron Anthony who died. 14:54.300 --> 14:56.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So they divide the slaves, 14:56.766 --> 14:59.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and as circumstances would have it, 14:59.233 --> 15:02.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% they send Douglass back to Baltimore, 15:03.533 --> 15:05.566 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% where he lives a little bit longer 15:05.566 --> 15:11.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% until the Aulds in Baltimore decide, 15:11.300 --> 15:12.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% well, they don't decide, 15:12.466 --> 15:15.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% but Douglass is now needed on the plantation. 15:15.900 --> 15:18.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% He's old enough, he's strong enough, 15:18.600 --> 15:20.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% they needed him to come back. 15:20.166 --> 15:22.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - So he's getting a worse job. 15:22.166 --> 15:25.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Yeah, he's no longer a house slave. 15:25.100 --> 15:26.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% He is actually in the field. 15:26.733 --> 15:29.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Turns out that he doesn't take to the field life of a slave, 15:29.900 --> 15:34.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% being a field hand, very well, and his overseer then sends him 15:34.533 --> 15:38.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% to what they called at the time a slave breaker 15:38.200 --> 15:43.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% or someone to break the spirit of someone who's-- 15:43.366 --> 15:45.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - Like you would break a horse. 15:45.233 --> 15:48.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Exactly, and this man named Edward Covey 15:48.000 --> 15:50.833 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% had the reputation as being very successful at this. 15:50.833 --> 15:54.500 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And under him, Douglass is worked really hard. 15:54.500 --> 15:58.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% He's beaten regularly, whipped, 15:58.333 --> 16:02.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and just to the point where Douglass can hardly... 16:02.000 --> 16:03.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Well, he can't stand it anymore. 16:03.433 --> 16:08.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And he actually takes on Covey, and it's a famous fight, 16:08.500 --> 16:10.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and Douglass describes it as two hours. 16:10.600 --> 16:13.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% It may have been more or less, but in the end, 16:14.466 --> 16:17.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% he's victorious over this slave breaker. 16:18.700 --> 16:21.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And normally, what would happen in that case 16:21.766 --> 16:23.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is they'd send him deeper south. 16:23.700 --> 16:25.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Yes, sure, where it could be harder-- 16:25.533 --> 16:26.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - For him to escape. 16:26.766 --> 16:28.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Harder lifestyle and harder to escape. 16:28.566 --> 16:30.900 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - But Covey, as I've read about him, 16:30.900 --> 16:33.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% was so proud of his reputation. 16:33.933 --> 16:35.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He didn't want to do that. 16:35.700 --> 16:37.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And he didn't want people to know 16:37.833 --> 16:40.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that Douglass had whipped him, basically. 16:40.933 --> 16:42.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% I mean, not whipped him with a whip, 16:42.800 --> 16:45.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but physically handled him. 16:45.333 --> 16:48.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And so he sends him to the Freeland farm 16:48.900 --> 16:51.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% to be a farmhand. 16:51.233 --> 16:54.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% The Freelands had a reputation of being, 16:54.333 --> 16:57.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% if you can say this about enslaved people, 16:57.433 --> 16:59.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% a kind slave owner. 16:59.766 --> 17:01.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% So Douglass was well-treated. 17:01.833 --> 17:04.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% He was clothed. 17:04.733 --> 17:07.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% He wasn't beaten, but he had to work. 17:07.933 --> 17:12.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And of course, now Douglass is 16, 17, 17:12.800 --> 17:16.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% he starts to meet with people in the area, 17:16.400 --> 17:20.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% his Black comrades, and they begin to plot an escape. 17:20.033 --> 17:22.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And they determine they're going to escape on Easter 17:22.966 --> 17:26.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because Easter is a time when there's free movement. 17:27.133 --> 17:29.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Slaves get to visit their families and that kind of thing. 17:29.666 --> 17:32.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - So they would put a boat in Chesapeake Bay, 17:32.800 --> 17:35.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and they would float their way north to freedom. 17:35.533 --> 17:39.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Well, one of the people in the plan got nervous 17:39.500 --> 17:42.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and told on them, and they were caught. 17:42.500 --> 17:45.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Douglass and about two other of his comrades were caught. 17:45.900 --> 17:49.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% They were marched to St. Michael's, 17:49.933 --> 17:55.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% which was about a good 10 to 12 miles away and jailed. 17:55.000 --> 17:58.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And when Douglass was released, 17:58.800 --> 18:01.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and instead of being sent again south, 18:01.633 --> 18:03.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% they sent him back to Baltimore. 18:04.700 --> 18:07.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Which there's a lot of conjecture about, 18:07.766 --> 18:12.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but many of the scholars on Douglass, 18:12.600 --> 18:16.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Douglass scholars do speculate that Douglass had... 18:18.933 --> 18:21.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% People realized he was really-- 18:21.733 --> 18:23.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Had something extra. - Right. 18:23.500 --> 18:25.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And when he got to Baltimore, 18:25.366 --> 18:29.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Hugh and Sophia Auld promised him that at age 25, 18:29.500 --> 18:33.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% they would free him from slavery. 18:33.066 --> 18:36.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Of course, he's 18, so that's a long time. 18:36.400 --> 18:37.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - Still a seven-year sentence. 18:37.866 --> 18:41.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - And so while he's in Baltimore this time, 18:41.000 --> 18:42.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% he becomes a member 18:42.233 --> 18:44.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of the Baltimore Mental Improvement Society, 18:44.833 --> 18:47.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which is a society of all Black men, pretty much, 18:47.900 --> 18:51.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% who debate on a regular basis, give speeches to one another, 18:52.200 --> 18:55.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and educate each other about the world. 18:55.233 --> 18:59.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He also discovers religion, organized religion, 18:59.666 --> 19:03.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and joins an AME Zion Baptist church. 19:03.166 --> 19:05.466 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% He is befriended by a man named Lawson, 19:05.466 --> 19:07.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% who becomes his mentor 19:07.533 --> 19:11.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and his first real loving friendship that they develop. 19:11.433 --> 19:14.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And Lawson teaches him further about the Bible, 19:14.866 --> 19:19.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and tells Douglass that he's a special person 19:19.233 --> 19:22.233 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and was born for special purpose. 19:22.233 --> 19:23.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Oh, that's a turning point, isn't it? 19:23.833 --> 19:26.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Yes, it was, so all this movement 19:26.533 --> 19:29.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and Douglass teaching Sabbath schools, for example, 19:29.333 --> 19:32.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and teaching fellow slaves how to read 19:32.100 --> 19:37.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and going to church and experiencing Black preachers 19:37.166 --> 19:41.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% both on the plantation and as in Baltimore, 19:41.166 --> 19:43.700 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% all this is the foundation for him 19:43.700 --> 19:47.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% in terms of his life mission or goal. 19:47.200 --> 19:51.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Which requires, in order to fulfill it, escape. 19:51.033 --> 19:52.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Freedom, exactly. 19:52.833 --> 19:55.900 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% So at age 20, and in all this time, 19:55.900 --> 19:58.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in that two-year period, 18 to 20 years old, 19:58.166 --> 20:03.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% he falls in love with a free Black woman named Anna Murray. 20:03.233 --> 20:09.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%   And she is a domestic servant, but a free woman. 20:09.800 --> 20:11.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% And that also fuels him 20:11.333 --> 20:16.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% because an enslaved man can't marry a woman who is free. 20:16.733 --> 20:20.300 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% So together, they plot an escape. 20:20.300 --> 20:22.500 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% He has friends who are sailors. 20:22.500 --> 20:26.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% He puts on a sailor uniform, gets his friend's papers. 20:28.000 --> 20:31.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% I think it was Navy papers. 20:31.633 --> 20:34.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% Gets on a train dressed as a sailor, 20:34.266 --> 20:37.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and literally rides the railroad to freedom 20:37.800 --> 20:40.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to Philadelphia and then a steamship to New York. 20:40.766 --> 20:42.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And when he gets to New York, 20:42.166 --> 20:44.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% he sends for Anna, and they marry in New York, 20:44.166 --> 20:46.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and then he moves to New Bedford, Massachusetts 20:46.733 --> 20:49.100 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% at the direction of the abolitionists, 20:49.100 --> 20:51.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% who in New York were kind of guiding him at that point. 20:51.800 --> 20:53.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He connected with them. 20:53.600 --> 20:55.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And they sent him to New Bedford. 20:55.133 --> 20:56.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%   - Norman: New Bedford, a very busy place 20:56.933 --> 20:59.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% in the 1840s and '50s. 20:59.700 --> 21:02.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Greg: It's a major whaling port. 21:02.000 --> 21:03.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% Lots of ships. 21:03.366 --> 21:05.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% One of the things I failed to mention in Baltimore, 21:05.733 --> 21:09.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% when he was 18, he had been trained as a caulker 21:09.666 --> 21:14.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% on the wharfs of Baltimore. 21:14.000 --> 21:16.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And so he had a trade, he learned a trade. 21:16.500 --> 21:21.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so the idea was maybe he could carry that trade forward 21:21.533 --> 21:24.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% from Baltimore to New Bedford and be a caulker. 21:24.366 --> 21:27.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He'd have a livelihood while he got established 21:27.266 --> 21:28.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% in New Bedford. 21:28.533 --> 21:30.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - What kind of life did he experience as a caulker, 21:30.733 --> 21:32.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% as a professional in New Bedford? 21:32.900 --> 21:36.133 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% Was it anything approaching equality? 21:36.133 --> 21:39.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Who was he working with? - No, it didn't go well at all. 21:39.000 --> 21:42.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% In fact, the first time he went to work down 21:42.466 --> 21:46.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% at the wharfs in New Bedford, he was beaten. 21:46.366 --> 21:49.766 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And so he had to find other work. 21:49.766 --> 21:52.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It just didn't work for him. 21:52.433 --> 21:54.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And so what he did was he went on 21:54.900 --> 21:58.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% then to work in a candle factory 21:58.200 --> 22:02.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and eventually joined the Black abolitionist, 22:02.533 --> 22:07.000 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% the local Black abolitionist folks in New Bedford, 22:07.000 --> 22:08.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% where they met regularly 22:08.333 --> 22:11.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as anti-slavery meetings, organized meetings. 22:11.400 --> 22:15.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% He joined the AME Zion Church in New Bedford, 22:15.333 --> 22:18.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% where he established himself very quickly as a leader 22:18.733 --> 22:24.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and went into pastoral training and became a licensed pastor, 22:24.300 --> 22:27.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% or at least on his way to being a licensed pastor. 22:27.000 --> 22:31.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And they happily married. 22:31.233 --> 22:34.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And there were a lot of Quakers in New Bedford 22:34.700 --> 22:37.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% who supported the Black community. 22:37.433 --> 22:40.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But still, even though things were looking up, 22:40.633 --> 22:41.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he was still a fugitive. 22:41.933 --> 22:43.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - And he must've changed his name by now. 22:43.733 --> 22:44.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - And he changed his name 22:44.933 --> 22:46.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% when he got to New Bedford to Douglass. 22:46.633 --> 22:48.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% The person he was staying with 22:48.466 --> 22:51.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% actually was reading "Lady of the Lake," 22:51.366 --> 22:54.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% an epic poem where the heroine-- 22:54.033 --> 22:55.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - Sir Walter Scott. - Sir Walter Scott, 22:55.733 --> 22:57.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and the heroine was Douglass, 22:57.100 --> 22:59.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and said, "This would be a very good name for you." 22:59.300 --> 23:01.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Which fit, again, into Douglass's 23:01.166 --> 23:06.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% kind of intellectual vision for himself as a heroic figure. 23:06.100 --> 23:08.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - He must still have been looking over his shoulder though 23:08.500 --> 23:09.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% for slave catchers. 23:09.866 --> 23:12.833 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Yes, the fugitive slave law was well underway, 23:12.833 --> 23:17.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% except in New Bedford because there were so many Quakers 23:17.100 --> 23:20.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and it was a very healthy-sized Black population. 23:22.000 --> 23:25.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% If slave catchers were to come into New Bedford, 23:25.833 --> 23:28.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Douglass would've been protected, 23:28.733 --> 23:31.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% would've been guarded, would've had ample warning. 23:31.633 --> 23:36.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so that was the good part about New Bedford. 23:36.566 --> 23:38.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - So he's an abolitionist at this point, 23:38.533 --> 23:41.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% I mean, in practice as well as in spirit. 23:41.566 --> 23:45.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And is he, like, taking to the road, making the rounds? 23:45.766 --> 23:48.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, in 1841, August of 1841, 23:48.700 --> 23:51.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Garrison and the white abolitionists from Boston 23:51.966 --> 23:53.133 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% came to town. 23:54.333 --> 23:58.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% They had heard about Douglass in New Bedford. 23:58.400 --> 24:01.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% They had known he had become a leader, 24:01.000 --> 24:02.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% an established leader 24:02.366 --> 24:05.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in the Black abolitionist movement in New Bedford. 24:05.733 --> 24:08.333 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And they went and heard him speak. 24:08.333 --> 24:10.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And Garrison writes a great deal. 24:10.333 --> 24:11.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% William Lloyd Garrison, who's the leader 24:11.733 --> 24:13.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of the anti-slavery movement, 24:13.900 --> 24:16.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% the moral suasion wing of the anti-slavery movement, 24:16.633 --> 24:17.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% heard him speak. 24:17.966 --> 24:21.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And so invited him to Nantucket to a larger convention 24:21.800 --> 24:25.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and to speak in front of white people for the first time. 24:25.133 --> 24:26.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And Douglass writes a lot about this 24:26.966 --> 24:28.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in his autobiographies 24:28.233 --> 24:32.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of how white people had always been the enemy, 24:32.100 --> 24:34.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% basically, and so he was very, very nervous. 24:34.933 --> 24:38.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% But he did very well, to the point where 24:39.233 --> 24:42.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Garrison recognized this is a person that could 24:42.300 --> 24:47.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% shed bright light on slavery, the atrocities of it 24:47.366 --> 24:49.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% with firsthand experience, 24:49.766 --> 24:51.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and offered Douglass an opportunity 24:51.833 --> 24:53.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% to become a full-time abolitionist 24:53.966 --> 24:57.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% with the Garrisonian abolitionists. 24:57.033 --> 24:59.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Douglass scarred by the whippings he had received? 24:59.633 --> 25:04.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - He was scarred, but not mentally. 25:04.533 --> 25:08.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He had a very strong will, as I've tried to establish, 25:08.066 --> 25:12.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and he was beaten, and savagely at times. 25:12.233 --> 25:15.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But when you look at the time he spent in that setting, 25:16.466 --> 25:18.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and I don't want in any way diminish 25:18.066 --> 25:21.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% that he was beaten, but it was a short period of time, 25:21.966 --> 25:24.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% not enough to really break him. 25:24.433 --> 25:27.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And when he was on the verge of being broken, 25:27.033 --> 25:30.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% he fought back, and it turned out pretty well for him, 25:30.633 --> 25:33.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% where it could have gone literally deeper south. 25:33.733 --> 25:38.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - His voice and his presence, 25:38.800 --> 25:42.800 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% also powerful when he was an orator? 25:42.800 --> 25:45.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Yes, his physical presence, people write about this. 25:45.933 --> 25:48.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Elizabeth Cady Stanton has the best, I think, 25:48.833 --> 25:52.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% description of him on the stage, on the platform. 25:52.166 --> 25:53.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% She called him... 25:53.566 --> 25:56.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She said he was majestic in his wrath. 25:56.566 --> 25:59.700 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% He was angry, he spoke pointedly. 25:59.700 --> 26:02.066 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% He was courageous in the sense 26:02.066 --> 26:05.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that he would hold up America's sin of slavery 26:05.266 --> 26:06.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% in front of everyone. 26:06.933 --> 26:10.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% He continuously asked, "Why was I a slave? 26:10.366 --> 26:12.400 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% "Why am I a fugitive? 26:12.400 --> 26:14.166 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% I am a human being." 26:14.166 --> 26:17.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And his very presence on the stage was a testament 26:17.433 --> 26:20.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to the fact that he was a human being. 26:20.600 --> 26:26.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And he was fearless when it came to 26:26.433 --> 26:29.766 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% evoking the sins of America, 26:29.766 --> 26:32.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% not just of the North, but just the sin 26:32.866 --> 26:35.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and going against everything that was decent 26:35.866 --> 26:38.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in the Declaration of Independence. 26:38.400 --> 26:40.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That was his touchstone. 26:41.466 --> 26:43.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% America is not living up to its promise. 26:43.700 --> 26:44.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% We hear these words today, 26:44.866 --> 26:48.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but in the 19th century, for a Black man, 26:48.633 --> 26:52.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% considered a brute, less than human, to be getting up 26:52.266 --> 26:56.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and questioning Americans, white Americans, 26:56.200 --> 26:58.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% particularly white Northerners, 26:58.300 --> 27:01.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% oftentimes affluent white Northerners 27:01.566 --> 27:05.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% about not living up to the promise, right, 27:05.066 --> 27:08.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% of the Declaration of Independence. 27:08.800 --> 27:10.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% That was something very different. 27:11.600 --> 27:13.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - So he takes to the road. 27:13.300 --> 27:17.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% How widely does he travel as a proponent of abolition? 27:17.766 --> 27:20.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - So he does, he takes to the road immediately. 27:20.633 --> 27:24.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% In the years that follow, in the four years that follow, 27:24.933 --> 27:30.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he actually participates in two 100 convention tours. 27:30.666 --> 27:33.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% There's a 100 convention tour of New York, 27:33.633 --> 27:37.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and there's a 100 convention tour of Rhode Island 27:37.500 --> 27:40.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% where he is literally, it's 100 conventions. 27:40.166 --> 27:44.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% So he is on the road with the white abolitionists 27:45.366 --> 27:48.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% traveling from town to town, usually following the path 27:48.166 --> 27:50.766 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% of the railroad or the stage coach. 27:50.766 --> 27:52.600 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And remember, he is a Black person, 27:52.600 --> 27:55.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% so he is relegated to, when he is on a train, 27:55.366 --> 27:57.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% he's forced to-- 27:57.233 --> 27:59.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Ride with the baggage, in some cases. 27:59.100 --> 28:01.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Ride with the baggage and in any kind of steamship, 28:01.900 --> 28:03.133 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% in steerage. 28:03.133 --> 28:06.633 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Of course, Douglass would not tolerate that. 28:06.633 --> 28:10.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And so there's a great story about him being picked up 28:10.266 --> 28:11.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% in New Bedford by the railroad, 28:11.833 --> 28:14.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and him sitting in the cars with the whites. 28:14.366 --> 28:15.966 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And he did this a number of times, 28:15.966 --> 28:17.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and they would throw him off the train. 28:17.566 --> 28:20.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And after a while, the railroad decided 28:20.233 --> 28:22.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% they weren't gonna stop at New Bedford 28:22.066 --> 28:24.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% because Douglass was continuously doing 28:24.633 --> 28:26.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% civil disobedience, basically. 28:26.666 --> 28:28.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But yeah, he traveled widely. 28:28.100 --> 28:31.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He had trouble finding places to sleep 28:31.133 --> 28:33.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and places to stay. 28:33.100 --> 28:34.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% If there were white abolitionists 28:34.533 --> 28:37.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% friendly towards the movement 28:37.166 --> 28:39.966 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and friendly towards a Black person staying in their home, 28:39.966 --> 28:41.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of course he could do that, 28:41.600 --> 28:43.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but that was not always the case. 28:43.766 --> 28:46.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He struggled with that. 28:46.066 --> 28:50.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - On these trips, these road trips, speaking tours, 28:50.666 --> 28:52.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% did he run into violence? 28:52.633 --> 28:58.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - He did, and these were not calm meetings. 28:58.133 --> 29:00.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% A lot of times, the smaller local meetings 29:00.700 --> 29:02.933 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% were relatively calm, 29:02.933 --> 29:04.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% although Douglass had the reputation 29:04.833 --> 29:08.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% of calling and even disagreeing with the abolitionists publicly. 29:08.633 --> 29:10.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Well, there was a spectrum of abolitionists. 29:10.400 --> 29:12.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Wasn't there a spectrum of opinion? 29:12.600 --> 29:14.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Yeah, so he was not afraid to do that, 29:14.666 --> 29:17.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but occasionally they would get into the... 29:17.433 --> 29:19.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They would be speaking in a town that wasn't friendly. 29:19.566 --> 29:23.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And a good example of that is Pendleton, Indiana. 29:23.100 --> 29:26.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Now, Indiana was pretty close to the slave, 29:26.166 --> 29:30.033 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% to the South and organized slavery. 29:30.033 --> 29:34.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And a mob had formed to basically kill Douglass, 29:34.900 --> 29:36.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% or at least injure him severely enough 29:36.766 --> 29:38.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that he couldn't speak. 29:38.166 --> 29:40.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And so in the middle of a meeting, 29:40.866 --> 29:44.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% they came and beat him with... 29:44.866 --> 29:46.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% They broke up the platform, 29:46.233 --> 29:49.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% the wooden platform, and beat him with the platform, 29:49.633 --> 29:52.300 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% and nearly killed him. 29:52.300 --> 29:53.800 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% The white abolitionists rescued him 29:53.800 --> 29:57.366 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and brought him back to a home where he was administered, 29:57.366 --> 29:59.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but then Douglass being Douglass 29:59.266 --> 30:02.300 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% decided he was gonna go back to the same place the next day, 30:02.300 --> 30:05.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and he was not going to allow anyone 30:05.466 --> 30:08.700 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% to deter him from his mission to end slavery. 30:08.700 --> 30:12.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And that happened repeatedly in this whole period 30:12.633 --> 30:15.666 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% from 1841 to 1845. 30:15.666 --> 30:18.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% There were outbreaks at various conventions, 30:18.400 --> 30:23.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% even in Boston, in Faneuil Hall in the 1840s 30:23.300 --> 30:25.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and later in the 1860s. 30:26.933 --> 30:28.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They would try to shout... 30:28.533 --> 30:31.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They called it shouting him off the platform. 30:31.800 --> 30:36.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And Douglass believed that he was a citizen 30:36.533 --> 30:40.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and he was entitled to all the rights of a citizen, 30:40.100 --> 30:42.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% including the right of free speech. 30:42.000 --> 30:44.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So he never was shouted off the platform. 30:44.966 --> 30:48.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% People shouted over him, but he never would leave a platform. 30:48.400 --> 30:51.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% He would always stay and finish his remarks, 30:51.233 --> 30:52.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% despite all the noise. 30:53.800 --> 30:54.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - And along the way, 30:54.966 --> 30:56.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% getting considerable press, I would think. 30:56.366 --> 31:02.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - He was, locally, and then more of a northern newspaper, 31:02.266 --> 31:06.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The Liberator of course carried lots of stories. 31:06.300 --> 31:07.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% When I was doing my research, 31:07.533 --> 31:09.866 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% I found stories in the New National Era, 31:09.866 --> 31:11.633 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% which was an abolitionist newspaper. 31:11.633 --> 31:14.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% The local newspapers covered him too. 31:14.133 --> 31:16.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% A lot of times, local newspapers at that period 31:16.266 --> 31:19.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% would just replicate what was in the national news, 31:19.133 --> 31:20.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% but they always had a local column. 31:20.800 --> 31:24.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And they would describe Douglass on the platform, 31:24.033 --> 31:29.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and people were just aghast at how strong he was, 31:29.366 --> 31:33.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% how voracious he was as a speaker, yeah. 31:34.900 --> 31:38.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Newspapers were, of course, as you imply Greg, 31:38.366 --> 31:41.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% key for communication at this point. 31:41.666 --> 31:44.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Did he eventually have a newspaper of his own? 31:44.666 --> 31:52.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% - Yes, in fact, one of his goals early on in the 1840s 31:52.133 --> 31:54.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% was to have his own newspaper 31:54.100 --> 31:56.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% so he could have his voice heard. 31:58.500 --> 32:03.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% When he fled to England and when he was in England, 32:03.000 --> 32:06.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the white abolitionists there, the women particularly, 32:06.366 --> 32:09.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the Female Anti-Slavery Society in England, 32:09.266 --> 32:13.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% actually bought his freedom. 32:13.100 --> 32:15.500 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And so that was very controversial 32:15.500 --> 32:17.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% because by buying his freedom-- 32:17.166 --> 32:19.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - It implied that he had been a slave in the first place. 32:19.766 --> 32:21.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - He had been a slave in the first place, 32:21.766 --> 32:23.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and that didn't sit well with the abolitionists. 32:23.366 --> 32:25.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% But for Douglass, that was the liberation 32:25.066 --> 32:26.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% he was so, so desiring. 32:26.933 --> 32:29.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% So they paid for his freedom 32:29.200 --> 32:32.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and they raised money for a press 32:32.500 --> 32:36.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% so he could come return to the America again, to the U.S., 32:36.733 --> 32:40.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% a free man rejoined with his wife Anna 32:40.866 --> 32:45.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and his family, and they moved to Rochester, New York. 32:45.833 --> 32:48.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% The Garrisonians were not supportive 32:48.666 --> 32:50.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of him having his own newspaper. 32:50.333 --> 32:52.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They believed that was overkill. 32:52.066 --> 32:54.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They were really, actually threatened by the fact 32:54.666 --> 32:56.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that he would publish his own newspaper. 32:58.133 --> 32:59.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% It was called The North Star. 32:59.733 --> 33:01.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And he did publish it in Rochester, 33:01.766 --> 33:03.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and he had a lot of benefactors in Rochester, 33:03.933 --> 33:06.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% which is why he moved to Rochester. 33:06.166 --> 33:08.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He had a lot of support from the local community, 33:08.966 --> 33:13.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and he thrived there as an independent editor. 33:13.066 --> 33:18.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And again, continued to speak as an abolitionist speaker. 33:18.333 --> 33:22.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - We're, I think by this point, getting into the 1850s 33:22.266 --> 33:29.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and the most contentious of the pre-Civil War years. 33:29.333 --> 33:30.733 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Greg: Yes. 33:30.733 --> 33:32.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Norman: In addition to abolitionists, 33:32.100 --> 33:35.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is he having other allies in the northern states, 33:35.133 --> 33:37.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% obviously for the most part, 33:37.333 --> 33:39.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% who are not necessarily abolitionists, 33:39.666 --> 33:42.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% but they're saying it's time for slavery to go? 33:42.666 --> 33:44.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Greg: Yeah, in the 1850s, 33:44.266 --> 33:46.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% it was such a crucial period for Douglass. 33:46.266 --> 33:50.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Douglass was a Garrisonian abolitionist up until the 1850s, 33:50.333 --> 33:55.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Garrisonians believed that moral suasion 33:55.333 --> 33:58.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% was the way forward, that you could convince people, 33:58.933 --> 34:01.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% if you could bring slavery into the hearts 34:01.333 --> 34:05.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and minds of the audience, the people of the North, 34:05.133 --> 34:09.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% they would see the immorality of it and work to end it. 34:10.433 --> 34:15.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And they wanted to dissolve the Constitution and start anew. 34:15.200 --> 34:16.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% They wanted a peaceful-- 34:17.833 --> 34:19.200 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Transition. 34:19.200 --> 34:21.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Transition, and that's what they were working toward. 34:21.400 --> 34:24.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% By the 1850s, Douglass was evolving to the point, 34:24.766 --> 34:26.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% particularly with other Black abolitionists, 34:26.466 --> 34:28.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% but also white abolitionists, 34:28.533 --> 34:31.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and with the political climate as it was, 34:31.900 --> 34:33.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% becoming very discouraged 34:33.633 --> 34:39.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and started to believe that the Constitution, 34:39.200 --> 34:41.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% contrary to what the Garrisonians believed, 34:41.933 --> 34:46.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that the Constitution was not a pro-slavery document, 34:46.100 --> 34:49.933 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but contained the workings of actually a way forward 34:50.933 --> 34:53.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to end slavery and start anew. 34:53.200 --> 34:55.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - It did, from the get-go, 34:55.333 --> 34:58.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% specify that there would be an end in 1808 34:58.100 --> 35:00.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% to the importation of slaves. 35:00.166 --> 35:01.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - And then beyond that, 35:01.900 --> 35:05.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% he realized that the Constitution could be amended, 35:05.800 --> 35:09.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% which would set in motion, from his view, 35:09.566 --> 35:15.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% a new republic, a reborn republic with no slavery. 35:15.633 --> 35:17.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% That was his vision. 35:17.600 --> 35:20.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And he began advocating for that in the mid-1850s 35:21.800 --> 35:24.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and started getting some attention, 35:24.233 --> 35:26.900 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% particularly from the Republican party. 35:26.900 --> 35:31.633 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - And meanwhile, back in New Bedford, 35:31.633 --> 35:33.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% or in Boston, let's say, 35:33.466 --> 35:38.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% there was still some contention between abolitionists 35:38.866 --> 35:43.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and pro-slavery exponents, even in Massachusetts. 35:43.333 --> 35:44.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, it was... 35:44.533 --> 35:48.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Douglass wrote a lot about the two prongs 35:48.266 --> 35:52.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of being a Black person in the U.S. 35:52.433 --> 35:54.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% One of them, of course, was slavery. 35:54.700 --> 35:59.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% That was the most insidious part of the nation. 35:59.366 --> 36:02.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But right up there with that was racism. 36:02.333 --> 36:05.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And he called it racism. 36:05.700 --> 36:10.466 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% He called it that this was a nation 36:10.466 --> 36:12.933 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% where even when a Black man was free 36:12.933 --> 36:15.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% or a fugitive in the North, 36:15.566 --> 36:18.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% it was sometimes harder to deal with racism 36:18.500 --> 36:21.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% than it was with slavery because slavery was explicit. 36:21.366 --> 36:24.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% Racism was a lot of times implicit. 36:24.400 --> 36:27.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And he was always considered 3/5 a citizen, 36:27.866 --> 36:31.366 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and he thought, "I'm a whole person." 36:31.366 --> 36:33.033 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - But from a Constitutional standpoint, 36:33.033 --> 36:37.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in terms of population and representation, 36:37.366 --> 36:39.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% slaves were 3/5. - Greg: Yeah. 36:39.566 --> 36:42.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Various curious times in retrospect, 36:42.900 --> 36:45.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and even in Boston, as we see, 36:45.833 --> 36:50.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% there are some strong events going on 36:50.366 --> 36:52.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% as we approached the 1860s. 36:52.900 --> 36:56.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Greg: Yeah, the tension in that decade, 36:56.266 --> 37:01.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% 1850 to 1861 or so, a little more than a decade, 37:01.266 --> 37:05.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% really, the pressure continued to rise. 37:05.033 --> 37:07.166 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And among the abolitionists, they arose 37:07.166 --> 37:09.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% because there was the American... 37:10.366 --> 37:12.833 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% It was the National Abolitionist Society 37:12.833 --> 37:15.266 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% and the American Abolitionist Society, 37:15.266 --> 37:19.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and Garrison was kind of in both camps, 37:19.100 --> 37:21.700 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% but the American Abolitionist Society 37:21.700 --> 37:23.233 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% was the more political wing. 37:23.233 --> 37:27.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And Douglass began to see, why couldn't you do both? 37:27.666 --> 37:30.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Why couldn't you rely on moral suasion 37:30.966 --> 37:34.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and arguing for equality for all people, 37:34.533 --> 37:38.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% not just Black people, but for women and immigrants as well, 37:38.666 --> 37:42.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and take political action to end slavery? 37:42.533 --> 37:45.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% So he began to evolve in that way, much to the dismay 37:45.800 --> 37:47.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% of the Garrisonians 37:47.000 --> 37:49.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% because they were staunchly opposed 37:49.566 --> 37:51.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% to seeing the Constitution as anything 37:51.266 --> 37:53.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but a pro-slavery document. 37:53.300 --> 37:57.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% So he was pretty fierce at that point in his beliefs. 37:57.166 --> 38:01.000 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - And how does his world change with Fort Sumpter 38:01.000 --> 38:02.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and the onset of the Civil War? 38:02.933 --> 38:05.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - The minute the Civil War breaks out, 38:05.466 --> 38:10.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Douglass identifies that as a time of jubilation, 38:10.233 --> 38:12.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that finally we're going to settle 38:12.800 --> 38:14.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% this issue of slavery. 38:15.833 --> 38:18.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% He was also very disappointed 38:18.333 --> 38:20.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in the president, Abraham Lincoln, 38:20.633 --> 38:24.266 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% who wanted to define the war as a war to save the Union. 38:24.266 --> 38:28.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And so Douglass immediately went to work on the platform, 38:28.266 --> 38:30.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% calling out Lincoln basically, and saying, 38:30.700 --> 38:33.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% "This war is not about the Union. 38:33.566 --> 38:37.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% A new Union could be formed with the ending of slavery." 38:37.533 --> 38:42.466 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% And he got a lot of attention taking on a white president 38:42.466 --> 38:46.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and very prominently and rigorously 38:46.200 --> 38:49.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and relentlessly advocating for 38:50.500 --> 38:52.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% "Let's define this for what it is, 38:52.400 --> 38:56.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% "and let's allow Black men to enlist in the Army 38:56.900 --> 39:00.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% "and showing the South that to save the Union, 39:00.933 --> 39:02.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% "we're going to end slavery, 39:02.266 --> 39:05.766 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and we're going to arm all men to do that." 39:05.766 --> 39:07.400 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%   - And two of the first enlistees, 39:07.400 --> 39:09.033 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% Black enlistees were his own sons. 39:09.033 --> 39:11.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Exactly, Douglass had gone to the White House 39:11.966 --> 39:14.466 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% to meet with President Lincoln. 39:15.666 --> 39:18.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% He went after the Emancipation Proclamation 39:18.900 --> 39:21.466 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% in January 1, 1863, 39:21.466 --> 39:24.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% which allowed Black soldiers to enlist. 39:24.133 --> 39:25.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And Douglass went right out and recruit... 39:25.833 --> 39:28.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was a major recruiter for Black men 39:28.666 --> 39:31.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to enlist in the Massachusetts 64th regiment. 39:31.800 --> 39:34.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% His two sons, two of his three sons enlisted immediately 39:34.766 --> 39:38.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and became members of that, captured in the movie Glory. 39:38.566 --> 39:40.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's an older movie now, but it was captured-- 39:40.833 --> 39:42.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Norman: The attack on Fort Wagner. 39:42.366 --> 39:46.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Yeah, and then seeing how Black troops were treated 39:46.766 --> 39:49.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and didn't get the uniforms 39:49.666 --> 39:52.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% or didn't have the same treatment 39:52.600 --> 39:55.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% or weren't armed in the same way, 39:55.666 --> 39:57.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% Douglass went to the White House, obviously, 39:57.900 --> 39:59.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% to argue for better treatment of Black soldiers, 39:59.866 --> 40:02.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% including pay, which was very important. 40:02.733 --> 40:04.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - But also very heavy lift. 40:04.533 --> 40:08.700 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - A heavy lift, and again, asked Lincoln 40:08.700 --> 40:13.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to reframe, basically, the war, which Lincoln did. 40:13.900 --> 40:17.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And again, this is a complicated matter, 40:17.200 --> 40:19.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% much more complicated and nuanced 40:19.600 --> 40:20.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% than we can talk about here, 40:20.900 --> 40:24.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% but that relationship was important. 40:24.233 --> 40:28.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% In fact, after Lincoln was assassinated, in his will, 40:28.233 --> 40:31.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% he had willed Douglass one of his walking sticks 40:31.766 --> 40:33.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% as a token of his appreciation 40:33.833 --> 40:36.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and fondness for Douglass, even though they clashed. 40:37.800 --> 40:40.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% - A gentleman's disagreement from what we know, 40:40.033 --> 40:41.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% although there's no transcript at all 40:41.666 --> 40:43.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of their one-on-one meeting. 40:43.233 --> 40:44.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Greg: No, not at all. 40:44.500 --> 40:46.600 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - We can only hypothesize, I guess, 40:46.600 --> 40:49.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% what they would've said, but as you said, Greg, 40:50.800 --> 40:54.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Douglass would say, "Emancipation now!" 40:54.700 --> 40:57.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and Lincoln would say, "We have to preserve the Union 40:57.433 --> 40:59.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% before we can emancipate." 40:59.133 --> 41:01.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Right, and that was the tension. 41:01.566 --> 41:04.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And it turned out, on a practical matter, 41:04.833 --> 41:07.300 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% because the war was not going well, 41:07.300 --> 41:08.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and there were lots of other factors, 41:08.700 --> 41:10.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% but mostly the war was not going well 41:10.533 --> 41:13.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and there were a lot of Northern soldiers being killed, 41:14.933 --> 41:19.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the exigence of that period was, we need to increase our numbers. 41:19.666 --> 41:23.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Douglass loved this because then he could argue, 41:23.733 --> 41:26.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% "Well, you've armed us. 41:26.133 --> 41:30.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% "We're dying for our country, for the Union, 41:30.466 --> 41:33.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% "then we absolutely deserve equal rights 41:33.366 --> 41:36.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and full rights as citizens of the United States." 41:36.533 --> 41:38.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yes, and it was so blatantly clear that 41:38.733 --> 41:42.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% they were still not getting anything near that 41:42.033 --> 41:45.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% from the South when they would be massacred when captured, 41:45.033 --> 41:47.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in some instances, by the Southern troops. 41:47.433 --> 41:49.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - And remember, in emancipation, 41:49.266 --> 41:53.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% freed slaves as the North freed territories. 41:53.800 --> 41:56.366 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% So it wasn't a blanket emancipation, 41:56.366 --> 42:00.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but it was enough to get Black soldiers. 42:00.266 --> 42:03.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And the fear, of course, from the white person's side 42:03.766 --> 42:05.533 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% was that when you arm Black soldiers, 42:05.533 --> 42:08.933 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% that well, they won't follow orders. 42:08.933 --> 42:10.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% They're not trainable. 42:10.100 --> 42:11.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Well, it turned out 42:11.266 --> 42:13.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that they were obviously highly trainable 42:13.066 --> 42:14.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and excellent soldiers 42:14.600 --> 42:19.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and willing to die for the Union. 42:19.333 --> 42:21.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% So I think both men, 42:21.666 --> 42:24.933 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% both Lincoln and Douglass, got their wishes 42:24.933 --> 42:27.333 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% in some way at a very high price. 42:27.333 --> 42:30.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% But nevertheless, the war ended 42:31.833 --> 42:36.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and the Union was preserved, and Black men had established 42:36.733 --> 42:40.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% that they deserved to be full citizens. 42:40.133 --> 42:41.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - So at the end of the war, 42:41.733 --> 42:44.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% there of course has already been emancipation by then, 42:44.233 --> 42:47.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% 14th Amendment a couple of years after that, 42:47.433 --> 42:54.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% which frees things up some more in African-American equality. 42:55.433 --> 42:59.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% But then what is Douglass's thrust? 42:59.333 --> 43:01.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Does it have to do with racism 43:01.433 --> 43:05.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and just more of what you might call a civil equality? 43:05.933 --> 43:08.266 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - Yeah, he did dedicate himself 43:08.266 --> 43:11.166 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% to defining how Reconstruction would go 43:11.166 --> 43:14.233 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and should go for the South in terms 43:14.233 --> 43:19.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% of how those formerly enslaved people would be treated. 43:20.300 --> 43:24.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And initially, things in Reconstruction went pretty well 43:24.366 --> 43:27.866 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% in terms of establishing land for Black people 43:27.866 --> 43:29.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and property and so on. 43:30.866 --> 43:33.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But the minute the war was over, 43:33.200 --> 43:34.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Douglass was concerned about that, 43:34.900 --> 43:39.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and in addition, getting the vote for Black men, 43:39.066 --> 43:41.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% which infuriated Elizabeth Cady Stanton 43:41.800 --> 43:43.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and the women's rights movement 43:43.466 --> 43:46.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because Douglass was one of the only men at Seneca, 43:46.600 --> 43:49.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% well, was the only man at Seneca Falls in 1848 43:49.733 --> 43:51.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at the Women's Convention that produced 43:51.866 --> 43:53.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% the Declaration of Sentiments, 43:53.100 --> 43:56.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% which declared women's right to the vote. 43:56.600 --> 44:01.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He signed that declaration and was supporting suffrage 44:01.733 --> 44:03.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from that point forward. 44:03.066 --> 44:06.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But when the war ended, he said, "Time out." 44:06.066 --> 44:08.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% Not quite that way, much more eloquently, 44:08.466 --> 44:10.800 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% but he talked to Elizabeth Cady Stanton-- 44:10.800 --> 44:13.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Actually, they debated about this publicly 44:13.500 --> 44:16.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and why he would privilege, so to speak, 44:16.566 --> 44:19.233 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% the Black vote, the Black men's vote. 44:19.233 --> 44:20.900 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% He promised Elizabeth Cady Stanton 44:20.900 --> 44:23.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and other leaders of the women's suffrage movement 44:23.366 --> 44:25.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that once the vote was secured, 44:25.933 --> 44:29.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% he would return to the women's suffrage movement, 44:29.000 --> 44:30.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% which is what he did. 44:30.633 --> 44:34.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They got the amendment in place, Black men could vote, 44:36.166 --> 44:39.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and that was a key to citizenship for Douglass, 44:39.566 --> 44:41.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and it was a key element for that. 44:41.366 --> 44:43.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Of course, we all know what happened 44:43.066 --> 44:45.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in terms of, specifically in the South, 44:45.433 --> 44:47.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% making it very difficult for Black people to vote. 44:47.833 --> 44:50.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - In practical terms, poll taxes and violence. 44:50.833 --> 44:52.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - But the amendment was in place, 44:52.366 --> 44:54.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and so post-Civil War, 44:54.566 --> 44:56.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% and this is a period that, again, 44:56.766 --> 44:59.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% has been very carefully studied. 44:59.300 --> 45:03.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Douglass sets his sights on basically how to... 45:03.700 --> 45:08.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% How do African Americans advance themselves 45:08.766 --> 45:10.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% in this society? 45:10.666 --> 45:14.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And he identified education as a critical component of that. 45:14.333 --> 45:16.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% In fact, he actually was an advocate 45:16.966 --> 45:20.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% for technical education, which was more with the trades. 45:20.966 --> 45:23.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% That infuriated some of the Black leaders, 45:23.366 --> 45:24.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% as you can imagine, 45:24.800 --> 45:30.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% who wanted more liberal arts, in today's language, education. 45:30.066 --> 45:31.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But Douglass was practical. 45:31.533 --> 45:33.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% He said, "If we could get jobs, 45:33.866 --> 45:40.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% as, like, apprenticeships and so on, we can advance the race." 45:40.366 --> 45:42.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% - And that's still the thinking today, 45:42.100 --> 45:43.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% whether Black or white. 45:43.333 --> 45:45.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Who knows the apprenticeship, the trade. 45:45.800 --> 45:47.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - So that was one thing he did. 45:47.800 --> 45:50.633 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% He was an advocate for education. 45:50.633 --> 45:53.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He was also an advocate for one of his key terms, 45:53.166 --> 45:54.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which was self-reliance. 45:54.966 --> 45:57.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% He saw himself as self-reliant, 45:57.366 --> 46:01.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% and he wanted other Black Americans 46:01.100 --> 46:03.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% to be self-reliant. 46:03.166 --> 46:08.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% We cannot depend on the white population. 46:08.233 --> 46:10.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% We need to advance ourselves. 46:10.366 --> 46:13.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Well, that's in keeping with the philosophy 46:13.000 --> 46:16.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the American frontier, self-reliance. 46:16.133 --> 46:19.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% - Self-reliance and the self-made man. 46:19.000 --> 46:20.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% He saw himself as self-made. 46:20.666 --> 46:23.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Although he had lots of help along the way, 46:23.533 --> 46:26.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% he, in essence, was a self-made man. 46:26.000 --> 46:29.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Studied vigorously, spoke a number of different languages, 46:29.900 --> 46:32.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% never stopped learning. 46:32.133 --> 46:34.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And that's why it's so hard, to this day, 46:34.733 --> 46:36.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that's why he invites so much study 46:36.400 --> 46:40.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% because he was so complex, so interesting and intriguing. 46:40.966 --> 46:46.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% But no one ever doubted his courage and his persistence. 46:48.133 --> 46:52.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% He was relentless when it came to anything he took hold of. 46:52.166 --> 46:54.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - In your book though, speaking of self-made 46:54.700 --> 47:00.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% versus with some assistance, you do have a charming vignette 47:00.166 --> 47:02.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% where he's doing all these speaking tours 47:02.766 --> 47:05.633 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% and his wife is sending his clothes 47:05.633 --> 47:07.600 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%   after she's getting the clothes taken care of 47:07.600 --> 47:09.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and mailing them to him. 47:09.100 --> 47:14.066 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - Yeah, that account, in his world as an abolitionist, 47:14.066 --> 47:17.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% came from his daughter, Rosetta, his oldest daughter. 47:17.666 --> 47:19.266 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% He had two daughters. 47:19.266 --> 47:24.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Annie died at the age of 10, but Rosetta grew into adulthood, 47:24.666 --> 47:27.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and Rosetta wrote this beautiful piece 47:28.866 --> 47:32.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% in the 20th century, reflecting on her mother. 47:32.533 --> 47:35.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And in that is a beautiful description 47:35.033 --> 47:38.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% of how she would know where he was gonna be 47:38.900 --> 47:41.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% because they published all of the itineraries. 47:41.366 --> 47:42.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Norman: Train schedules and itineraries. 47:42.900 --> 47:46.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - And she would literally send him clean shirts 47:46.066 --> 47:49.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and a fresh suit so that he would be at his best. 47:50.533 --> 47:51.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He had so much support, 47:51.866 --> 47:58.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and he credited his wife for her management of his family. 47:58.666 --> 47:59.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% He was always gone. 48:01.400 --> 48:04.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% Well, gone, probably 10 months out of the year 48:04.233 --> 48:05.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% he was traveling. 48:06.533 --> 48:09.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% And he had children, of course, 48:09.866 --> 48:12.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and she was the person who raised those children. 48:12.766 --> 48:14.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% She also was not literate. 48:14.733 --> 48:16.733 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% So that's the other part of this, 48:16.733 --> 48:21.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% that she had help in sending things to Douglass 48:21.366 --> 48:23.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% while he was on his way. 48:23.366 --> 48:25.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% When he went to England for two years, 48:25.100 --> 48:27.333 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% she was home with those children, 48:27.333 --> 48:29.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% pretty young children at the time. 48:29.700 --> 48:34.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so yeah, she was quite the partner 48:34.400 --> 48:36.433 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5% and played a very important role. 48:36.433 --> 48:39.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% - Can you give us some profiles then of the children 48:39.166 --> 48:41.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% that went into public service in particular? 48:41.566 --> 48:45.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Yeah, Rosetta, I don't know all the story 48:45.333 --> 48:47.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of each of the children. 48:47.966 --> 48:51.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% I know that they all lived into adulthood, 48:51.266 --> 48:56.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%   that two of them served in the Union Army. 48:57.333 --> 49:00.700 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% One, Frederick Douglass, Jr., was a writer 49:01.833 --> 49:05.966 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and worked in Washington, D.C. 49:05.966 --> 49:07.333 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% It's kind of sketchy. 49:07.333 --> 49:11.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I had the good fortune of meeting the descendant 49:11.733 --> 49:15.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% of Frederick Douglass, Jr., Frederick Douglass's son, 49:16.533 --> 49:20.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% at a conference I was attending in Washington, D.C. 49:20.333 --> 49:22.933 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% for new authors at the time, in the late 1990s 49:22.933 --> 49:24.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% as part of the Park Service. 49:24.800 --> 49:28.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Invited me and others to meet 49:28.100 --> 49:31.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and then I had the good fortune of meeting the family, 49:31.500 --> 49:33.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% which took my breath away, honestly. 49:33.900 --> 49:35.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But then we got on a bus in Washington, D.C. 49:35.900 --> 49:39.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and rode to the Eastern Shore, 49:39.333 --> 49:41.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% and we got to see the plantation. 49:41.600 --> 49:43.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And what was nice about that is the descendants 49:43.600 --> 49:47.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of the Lloyds and Frederick Douglass's descendants 49:47.466 --> 49:50.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% met for the first time. 49:50.266 --> 49:52.266 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Oh, really? - And I got to see that. 49:52.266 --> 49:54.666 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% It was really a wonderful moment. 49:54.666 --> 49:57.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And again, just to see where, 49:57.900 --> 50:00.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% "the big house" is what Douglass called it 50:00.666 --> 50:02.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% is still standing, as is... 50:02.900 --> 50:04.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% The slave quarters are gone, 50:04.333 --> 50:07.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but the foundations are there, so you can see it all. 50:07.666 --> 50:10.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - And one of his other sons then, 50:10.866 --> 50:13.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I guess both of them were both in the military, 50:13.533 --> 50:15.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% but also later involved 50:15.200 --> 50:20.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% in what would be called African-American improvement. 50:20.133 --> 50:21.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Yes, that's right. 50:21.300 --> 50:23.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% They were very much engaged in that effort, 50:24.700 --> 50:26.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% led in part by their father, 50:26.566 --> 50:29.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% who kept insisting on, "Let's keep improving. 50:29.300 --> 50:32.466 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% Let's overcome these stereotypes." 50:32.466 --> 50:36.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - He did have some controversy later on in the family, 50:36.366 --> 50:41.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% didn't he, in his own particular sphere. 50:41.166 --> 50:46.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% - Right, Anna Murray Douglass died in the late 1880s. 50:47.433 --> 50:48.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Two or three years later, 50:48.866 --> 50:52.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Douglass married Helen Pitts Douglass, Helen Pitts, 50:52.900 --> 50:56.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that was very controversial. 50:56.200 --> 50:57.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Obviously she is a white woman, 50:58.900 --> 51:03.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and Douglass was very clear about this. 51:03.033 --> 51:06.833 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% He said, if he had to justify it publicly, he always said, 51:06.833 --> 51:12.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% "My first wife, I followed the lineage of my mother. 51:12.166 --> 51:15.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% My second wife, I followed the lineage of my father." 51:15.300 --> 51:17.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - It's a very rational way of looking at it. 51:17.766 --> 51:19.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% - That's how he would frame it, 51:19.600 --> 51:23.700 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% but Helen was absolutely important 51:23.700 --> 51:28.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% because after Frederick Douglass died in 1895, 51:28.033 --> 51:33.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% she was responsible for preserving his legacy. 51:34.000 --> 51:39.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% She was the one that made sure that the house was preserved, 51:39.900 --> 51:43.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% that the Library of Congress received his papers, 51:44.966 --> 51:51.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% that his world would be absolutely honored 51:51.966 --> 51:53.600 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% in the future. 51:53.600 --> 51:56.933 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And she was, like Douglass, relentless in that pursuit. 51:56.933 --> 51:59.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - And I think her father, if I remember correctly, 51:59.800 --> 52:02.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% never spoke to her again and disinherited her 52:02.800 --> 52:04.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% as soon as she married Douglass. 52:04.333 --> 52:10.466 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - And Douglass's sons and daughter, the same thing, 52:10.466 --> 52:14.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% except over time, they did reconcile. 52:15.133 --> 52:17.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But Douglass was, again, 52:18.366 --> 52:23.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% he had a very strong sense of the personal, 52:23.266 --> 52:26.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% so it's always hard to know what he was thinking. 52:26.966 --> 52:28.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% But he certainly, when he got on the platform, 52:28.966 --> 52:32.200 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% let you know in no uncertain terms that 52:32.200 --> 52:34.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% this was a very loving relationship. 52:34.833 --> 52:38.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And to him, it kind of lived out his vision 52:38.500 --> 52:42.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% of equality and integration. 52:42.233 --> 52:43.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - Blur those lines-- - Blur those lines, 52:43.833 --> 52:47.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and we're all equal, we're all whole human beings. 52:47.966 --> 52:51.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He was a humanist at heart, and he lived that 52:51.866 --> 52:55.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and demonstrated it very clearly throughout his life 52:55.000 --> 52:58.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and even in his personal life believed in that. 52:58.566 --> 53:01.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - In terms of his legacy, how would you describe it? 53:01.633 --> 53:04.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And of course, we've mentioned his family members 53:04.233 --> 53:06.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% who followed in that path to a great extent, 53:06.300 --> 53:09.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% but in a larger sense, how would you describe the legacy 53:09.766 --> 53:12.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of Frederick Douglass? 53:12.300 --> 53:14.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - I think Frederick Douglass, 53:15.566 --> 53:19.700 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% that's a tough question for me because there's so much legacy. 53:19.700 --> 53:25.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I think just in terms of leadership and vision, 53:25.100 --> 53:29.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he provides a case study in how to lead 53:29.333 --> 53:34.600 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% even when you're not respected, that you can earn respect, 53:35.600 --> 53:37.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and that there's a pathway to that. 53:37.833 --> 53:41.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that is to stay true to yourself 53:41.100 --> 53:45.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to hold up the values that you believe in 53:45.800 --> 53:50.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and root them, as he did, in touchstone documents 53:50.166 --> 53:52.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% like the Declaration of Independence, 53:52.433 --> 53:54.666 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and to root them in the Bible 53:54.666 --> 53:58.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% because there are lots of biblical references 53:58.300 --> 54:00.100 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% in his speeches. 54:00.100 --> 54:04.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I think the key point is never lose hope. 54:04.300 --> 54:09.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% He was an eternal optimist against tremendous odds. 54:09.033 --> 54:11.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% Not only odds in terms of his color, 54:11.466 --> 54:15.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but just odds in terms of being successful and staying alive 54:17.000 --> 54:21.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% and continuing to fight for equality. 54:21.833 --> 54:23.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - There's this great kind of farewell image 54:23.866 --> 54:26.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% of Douglass in his library. 54:27.100 --> 54:28.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - Greg: One of my favorite pictures. 54:28.500 --> 54:32.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% - Norman: Says so much about him in his last years. 54:32.266 --> 54:37.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%   - Greg: The final day of his life, which was, let's see, 54:37.333 --> 54:40.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was February 20, 1895. 54:40.566 --> 54:45.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% He had returned from a women's suffrage conference 54:45.433 --> 54:50.500 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% in Washington, D.C. for dinner, and he was going to go back, 54:50.500 --> 54:54.866 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and as he was leaving his home, walked down his hallway, 54:54.866 --> 54:56.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% he collapsed and died. 54:57.900 --> 55:02.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% But what's important about that is up to his final day, 55:03.233 --> 55:05.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% he was still working. - Still working. 55:05.400 --> 55:06.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - And in this case, 55:06.900 --> 55:11.000 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% he was working for women's right to vote. 55:11.000 --> 55:13.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% But prior to that, even the month prior to that, 55:13.200 --> 55:16.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% he was also traveling with Ida B. Wells, 55:16.066 --> 55:20.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% a prominent African-American woman who was fighting against, 55:20.166 --> 55:22.400 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% documenting lynchings in the South 55:22.400 --> 55:23.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% and fighting lynchings, 55:23.733 --> 55:28.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% and she had inspired Douglass to join her in that fight. 55:28.100 --> 55:29.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% So he had really two areas 55:29.800 --> 55:33.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% that he was heavily engaged in right up until his death. 55:33.466 --> 55:36.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that was his fight against lynchings, 55:36.566 --> 55:39.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% which was like a terrorist act. 55:39.100 --> 55:40.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% - An ongoing struggle 55:40.366 --> 55:42.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that would continue well into the 20th century. 55:42.266 --> 55:44.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% - And really tied specifically to the South. 55:44.266 --> 55:49.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% And then women's suffrage, which was a national issue. 55:49.166 --> 55:53.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so, yeah, I think his legacy is one of commitment, 55:53.066 --> 55:56.233 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% perseverance, and living out your vision. 55:56.233 --> 55:59.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% I think it's a tremendous life that he had. 55:59.366 --> 56:02.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And that picture of him at his desk. 56:02.233 --> 56:06.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%   Again, studying Douglass, I was able to get access 56:06.033 --> 56:10.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% to his library beyond where it's kind of cordoned off, 56:10.100 --> 56:12.866 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and got a complete listing of the books in his library. 56:12.866 --> 56:16.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And his books are as varied as his background, 56:16.066 --> 56:20.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% history and language and culture and philosophy. 56:20.766 --> 56:24.133 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% I mean, if you were a proponent of the liberal arts, 56:24.133 --> 56:27.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he was a liberally educated man. 56:27.833 --> 56:29.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - And is his house still there? 56:29.433 --> 56:31.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Yes, his house is still there. 56:32.633 --> 56:36.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% It's part of the national parks now in Anacostia, 56:36.966 --> 56:39.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and you can visit, it's just right outside, 56:39.000 --> 56:42.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% like 15 miles from Washington, D.C., and it's intact. 56:42.966 --> 56:47.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% It's a wonderful experience to go there. 56:47.066 --> 56:50.866 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% The other thing that they did build in the back of his house 56:50.866 --> 56:54.466 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% was the grotto, where he used to write... 56:54.466 --> 56:56.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It wasn't there, but they recreated it. 56:56.966 --> 56:59.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% And it's a little area where he would go 56:59.133 --> 57:00.866 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% to escape his family to write. 57:00.866 --> 57:04.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And in one corner of that grotto is a standup desk, 57:04.700 --> 57:07.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% where he would write his speeches standing up 57:07.566 --> 57:09.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% because he would deliver them standing up. 57:09.733 --> 57:12.400 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% - Good idea. - And then he had a little, 57:12.400 --> 57:15.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% like what would be like a couch and a fireplace. 57:15.900 --> 57:17.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% So on one end was a fireplace, a couch, 57:17.800 --> 57:21.166 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% and then a standing desk where he would write his speeches. 57:21.166 --> 57:22.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% And I asked if I could see it 57:22.766 --> 57:25.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% 'cause I had read about it, it was in Rochester. 57:25.100 --> 57:27.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% He had that same setup. 57:27.633 --> 57:29.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And they said, "Oh, yeah, we can take you back. 57:29.633 --> 57:31.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% We don't take many people back there." 57:31.100 --> 57:32.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And when I went in there, 57:32.333 --> 57:34.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% everything kind of fell right into place. 57:34.666 --> 57:37.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% I just felt so blessed to be able to see that, 57:37.633 --> 57:39.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% but it gave me another picture of Douglass 57:39.733 --> 57:41.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% besides the picture of him at his desk writing, 57:41.866 --> 57:45.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which he did extensively all the time, 57:45.533 --> 57:46.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% never stopped writing. 57:46.766 --> 57:48.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% But then to see 57:48.033 --> 57:50.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% where he would write his speeches, a facsimile, 57:50.333 --> 57:53.466 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% but nevertheless, a accurate reproduction 57:53.466 --> 57:54.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% was really inspiring. 57:54.866 --> 57:58.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Greg Lampe, a pleasure to share the life 57:58.600 --> 58:00.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and story of Frederick Douglass. 58:00.100 --> 58:02.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% - Yeah, thank you so much for having me, it's a pleasure. 58:02.566 --> 58:03.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% - Greg Lampe is the author 58:03.966 --> 58:07.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% of Frederick Douglass: Freedom's Voice. 58:07.400 --> 58:08.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% I'm Norman Gilliland. 58:08.566 --> 58:10.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% I hope you can join me next time around 58:10.366 --> 58:12.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5% for University Place Presents.