1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:06,266 FRANKLIN FOER: Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, a scandal that even President Trump can't 2 00:00:07,933 --> 00:00:11,100 manage or contain. Just six months into the president's second term, 3 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:15,500 lingering questions about his relationship with the deceased sex trafficker are 4 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:20,500 consuming his White House and paralyzing Congress with no end in sight, next. 5 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. I'm Franklin Foer in tonight for Jeffrey Goldberg. 6 00:01:32,266 --> 00:01:35,333 It wasn't that long ago when Elon Musk, who was on his way out of DOGE, 7 00:01:35,333 --> 00:01:40,333 posted what he called a really big bomb, that President Trump's name was in the 8 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:45,466 files of the government's Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Musk deleted that post, 9 00:01:47,666 --> 00:01:49,866 but a report from The Wall Street Journal this week confirmed his extraordinary claim 10 00:01:49,866 --> 00:01:54,833 and revealed that the president was briefed about it by Attorney General Pam Bondi in May. 11 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,500 Joining me tonight to discuss this, Peter Baker, 12 00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:02,700 the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Eugene Daniels is the 13 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:07,700 senior Washington correspondent and co-host of The Weekend on MSNBC, Susan Glasser is a 14 00:02:09,966 --> 00:02:13,233 staff writer at the New Yorker, Jonathan Karl is the chief Washington correspondent at ABC News. 15 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:18,400 Before we tumble down this sordid rabbit hole, 16 00:02:20,633 --> 00:02:24,033 Trump landed in Scotland today and took questions from the press. I want to listen to this exchange. 17 00:02:27,466 --> 00:02:30,200 REPORTER: Were you briefed on your name appearing in the Epstein files ever? 18 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,400 DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: No, I was never brief, no. 19 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,433 FRANKLIN FOER: Eugene, The Wall Street Journal reported that he was in these files, 20 00:02:37,433 --> 00:02:42,433 and he was briefed about it. The New York Times confirmed it. Why in the world is he denying this? 21 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,866 EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington Correspondent: Donald Trump deny something that everyone else 22 00:02:46,866 --> 00:02:49,033 says is true? I'm shocked by that. Because he knows, he feels like it's a bad, 23 00:02:49,033 --> 00:02:52,666 it's a terrible thing, even though everyone who you will talk to who's an expert will 24 00:02:52,666 --> 00:02:56,500 tell you that just because someone's name is in these files doesn't mean they did anything bad, 25 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:00,633 right? We know that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. We know that Donald 26 00:03:00,633 --> 00:03:04,700 Trump and him hung out a lot, right? We know these things. We know he was on the plane at some point. 27 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:09,700 And so what Donald Trump has clearly made the calculation that he can't be connected to Jeffrey 28 00:03:11,766 --> 00:03:15,433 Epstein in any way, shape or form, and because, for years, he and a lot of the people that are 29 00:03:15,433 --> 00:03:20,433 in the administration stoked the files so much and talked about how bad they were and how all 30 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:25,633 these pedophiles were in these files, je knows he cannot cop to knowing that he was in these files. 31 00:03:27,733 --> 00:03:30,200 JONATHAN KARL, Chief Washington Correspondent, ABC News: But, you know, here's the thing. When 32 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,200 Pam Bondi put out what she called phase one of the Epstein files in those binders to those right wing 33 00:03:34,133 --> 00:03:38,133 influencers, those documents, which were mostly stuff that had already been out, 34 00:03:38,133 --> 00:03:43,133 300 or some pages, Donald Trump's name was in those documents. 35 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,833 Those documents included Epstein's address book, which had Donald Trump, 36 00:03:47,833 --> 00:03:52,833 it had his brother, Robert, it had Ivanka, it has his ex-wife, Ivana, had, you know, 37 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,033 whole several Trumps and also had the flight logs from some of Epstein's flights between 38 00:04:00,166 --> 00:04:03,600 West Palm Beach and Teterboro in New York, and one to D.C. I think his name appeared 39 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,600 four or five times already in what were in the so-called Epstein files that were released by DOJ. 40 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:13,666 FRANKLIN FOER: Well, can you just talk about the bizarre paradox here, 41 00:04:13,666 --> 00:04:18,400 I guess is what you might call it, is that at the same time that they really are desperate to 42 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:23,400 escape this scandal, they keep burrowing deeper into it. I mean, Deputy Attorney 43 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,833 General Todd Blanche just spent two days in Florida with Maxwell. What's the calculus? 44 00:04:31,033 --> 00:04:33,833 JONATHAN KARL: I mean, if you thought this was an insignificant story and didn't want 45 00:04:33,833 --> 00:04:37,833 to pay any attention to it, they're making it impossible to ignore it. 46 00:04:37,833 --> 00:04:42,833 Having the deputy attorney general go down to Tallahassee for two full 47 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:49,066 days to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, who obviously is in prison for sex trafficking, 48 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,833 is an extraordinary development. And when - - what other case do you see like that? 49 00:04:55,833 --> 00:05:00,800 And it's not just that, Frank, when you think about it, there were -- the Times had a great 50 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,100 story about all the resources that have gone into this, reviewing these files, 51 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:10,100 saying hundreds. I am told it's actually about 1,000 personnel from the FBI and the DOJ -- 52 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,133 FRANKLIN FOER: 1,000 personnel? 53 00:05:15,133 --> 00:05:17,333 JONATHAN KARL: 1,000 people at the FBI and DOJ have been 54 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:21,266 working to review these files for a matter of months. 55 00:05:21,266 --> 00:05:26,266 Now, what were those people doing before they were tasked to this assignment, working on 56 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,133 national security cases, terrorism cases? They are now -- you know, I mean, a significant 57 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:39,066 part of the manpower of our national security division has been spent looking at these files. 58 00:05:41,266 --> 00:05:45,300 FRANKLIN FOER: Peter, you guys have written a biography of Trump. Can you help me understand 59 00:05:47,333 --> 00:05:50,066 why -- I mean, there's no evidence that there's anything revelatory in these files 60 00:05:50,066 --> 00:05:55,033 about Trump. Why, if he's innocent, does he act so guilty all the time? 61 00:05:55,033 --> 00:05:57,000 PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Well, we've seen that on 62 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,300 other occasions too, right? The Robert Mueller investigation found no provable 63 00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:06,633 in court conspiracy with Russia, and yet he seemed to act like there was one, 64 00:06:06,633 --> 00:06:11,633 right? He seemed to act very close to Russia, very admiring of Putin. Why do you do that if, in fact, 65 00:06:13,766 --> 00:06:17,233 you don't have something wrong? And by firing people like Jim Comey back in his first term, 66 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,333 you act like you've done something wrong, you're trying to cover it up. And so, yes, 67 00:06:21,333 --> 00:06:25,733 he is his own worst enemy in this way. He brings this on himself by looking like he's 68 00:06:25,733 --> 00:06:30,233 trying to hide something by denying the obvious right there. As Jon says already out there, 69 00:06:30,233 --> 00:06:33,033 this is not a mystery that his name was in these files, nor should it be, because, 70 00:06:33,033 --> 00:06:38,033 again, we already knew he was a friend of Epstein's, and yet he is acting that way. 71 00:06:39,733 --> 00:06:43,833 But I think it's part of, you know, his habit is to deny, deny, deny, 72 00:06:43,833 --> 00:06:48,833 even provable truths. It's just never in his DNA to admit, much less acknowledge or apologize. 73 00:06:50,866 --> 00:06:53,800 FRANKLIN FOER: Where does that impulse come from? 74 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,200 PETER BAKER: Well, I think it's from his father, I think his upbringing, 75 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,266 to some extent. He was taught you never, ever give in, never give an inch, ever. You're a killer, 76 00:07:00,266 --> 00:07:03,733 his dad would say to him. Well, a killer doesn't give in it, doesn't apologize, 77 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:06,000 doesn't acknowledge, doesn't say they did anything wrong, doesn't acknowledge 78 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,700 that there's some -- you know, that he made a mistake in being friends with Jeffrey Epstein. 79 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:14,866 FRANKLIN FOER: Susan, you wrote an excellent column in the New Yorker about this scandal, 80 00:07:14,866 --> 00:07:19,866 and I want a quote from it. This scandal then is not the revelation that Trump was friends 81 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:25,300 with a sexual monster who exploited underage women, since it is not a revelation, nor is it 82 00:07:27,566 --> 00:07:30,733 that the president lied to the American people, something he does with remarkable frequency. No. 83 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:36,000 The novelty here is that millions of Americans who knew that Trump was friends with such a 84 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,000 horrid man and voted for him anyway now appear to have decided that in a choice 85 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:46,033 between Trump and a favorite conspiracy theory, they may just stick with the conspiracy theory. 86 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:52,033 Of all the many Trump scandals, why is this one that seems to be the one that has gained 87 00:07:54,166 --> 00:07:58,900 traction and gripped the media and apparently tormented his base in the way that this has? 88 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,533 SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New Yorker: Yes, I think that's a really important question for us 89 00:08:03,533 --> 00:08:07,466 to be asking, Frank. You know, if you think about it, in an administration where every 90 00:08:09,566 --> 00:08:13,000 day there's some new outrage or controversy where you could argue that the scandals get 91 00:08:15,166 --> 00:08:19,200 to the core of who we are as a country, right? I mean, we're talking about the monetization 92 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,200 of the presidency. Nobody apparently cares about that. We're talking about flouting court orders, 93 00:08:26,633 --> 00:08:31,633 attacking individual judges. I mean, the list can go on and on. So, what is the political 94 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:37,500 truth that we're seeing in this becoming a scandal when so many other things haven't? 95 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:42,500 I mean, I just, to be totally frank, I would rather be talking about anything else than this, 96 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,333 okay? We are talking about a convicted sexual offender who has been dead for six years, 97 00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:54,933 who was prosecuted, arrested, prosecuted, sent to jail. We're talking about 98 00:08:54,933 --> 00:08:59,933 the deputy attorney general spending two days of his valuable time going to interview the 99 00:09:02,033 --> 00:09:06,433 also convicted accomplice of that long dead sexual offender, right? So, on some level, 100 00:09:08,366 --> 00:09:11,633 it's a perversion of our politics that we are talking about this. And it reflects, 101 00:09:13,766 --> 00:09:17,466 of course, very poorly on the man in the White House who was friends with such a person. 102 00:09:19,833 --> 00:09:22,733 But I just think it tells us something about the nature of Trump's alliance with the MAGA movement, 103 00:09:24,666 --> 00:09:29,466 that he's both a leader but also a follower of them. He's unleashed so many lies, 104 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:35,933 conspiracy theories, diversions, untruths, and that this particular one resonated so deeply with 105 00:09:38,133 --> 00:09:43,133 a portion of his base that they are willing, at least for now, to even do what they're not 106 00:09:45,366 --> 00:09:48,500 willing to do on any of the other many lies and conspiracy theories that he has foisted upon them. 107 00:09:50,533 --> 00:09:53,533 I think it's quite interesting to wonder whether this is a breach that could widen 108 00:09:55,433 --> 00:09:58,400 over time or it's a one-off. And I think we don't know the answer to that yet, 109 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,400 but it's notable that some members of Congress who stick with Donald Trump through the most 110 00:10:05,566 --> 00:10:09,066 outrageous untruths are demanding answers from him that he doesn't want to give right now. 111 00:10:11,266 --> 00:10:14,966 EUGENE DANIELS: And part of it is this scandal, the Epstein/Trump of it all, goes at the heart 112 00:10:17,033 --> 00:10:20,900 of kind of what the MAGA base is about, which is powerful people doing things behind closed doors 113 00:10:22,866 --> 00:10:27,400 and the rest of us being screwed out of it, right? And, usually, Donald Trump is on the 114 00:10:29,733 --> 00:10:31,933 side of the people that are getting screwed, right? Usually, Donald Trump is talking about how, 115 00:10:31,933 --> 00:10:36,733 you know, the lowly man and woman are losing out to these interests in Washington, D.C., 116 00:10:38,666 --> 00:10:41,866 and people are defending and protecting them, and we have to stop those people. 117 00:10:41,866 --> 00:10:45,366 But now they are seeing Donald Trump seemingly being one of the people 118 00:10:45,366 --> 00:10:48,566 doing the defending and the protecting of the powerful people, and him being one of 119 00:10:48,566 --> 00:10:52,433 the powerful people themselves. That's why I think he can't shake it because, 120 00:10:52,433 --> 00:10:57,400 at the end of the day, this is -- they love a conspiracy theory, right? Over and over again, 121 00:10:59,466 --> 00:11:02,666 this is one that, when you talk to people, the pedophile rings, alleged pedophile rings -- 122 00:11:03,566 --> 00:11:05,333 JONATHAN KARL: Based on QAnon. 123 00:11:05,333 --> 00:11:07,666 EUGENE DANIELS: Yes, based on QAnon, and also remember the pizzeria. 124 00:11:07,666 --> 00:11:11,900 SUSAN GLASSER: But let's be clear here that, you know, we act as though these poor people 125 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:15,600 were misled and now they're shocked to find out like that Donald Trump was friends with 126 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,666 Jeffrey Epstein, they've known that for years, okay? How many times have, 127 00:11:19,666 --> 00:11:24,666 you know, we inflicted upon our viewers or our readers images of Donald Trump 128 00:11:26,466 --> 00:11:28,866 and Jeffrey Epstein? The video of him, them partying, that's from decades ago. 129 00:11:28,866 --> 00:11:33,266 PETER BAKER: The MAGA base, though, is upset not because they think Trump was friends with 130 00:11:33,266 --> 00:11:36,866 Epstein. They're upset because they thought that the Epstein files would tell them something about 131 00:11:36,866 --> 00:11:40,300 other people, about other rings. They didn't want to actually target Trump, 132 00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:43,866 per se, that sort of collateral damage in a way they thought. It would be telling about 133 00:11:43,866 --> 00:11:47,600 Bill Clinton, it would be telling them about other famous and, you know, elites. 134 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,500 JONATHAN KARL: And Bondi raised the expectations. 135 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:55,066 But, look, there's a fundamental question that I'm amazed has not really been directly addressed 136 00:11:55,066 --> 00:12:00,100 in so much of how the story has unfolded. Why is Todd Blanche in Tallahassee? What 137 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:06,866 is what purpose? Just a basic question, because the White House hasn't answered. 138 00:12:06,866 --> 00:12:11,866 So, I think that -- I mean, my understanding is there's really only one explanation, 139 00:12:13,966 --> 00:12:17,100 and then that is he's trying to go and produce what all those FBI agents couldn't produce when 140 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:22,100 they were looking through the files, trying to get some dirt on the president's enemies. 141 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,600 FRANKLIN FOER: So, it's a desperate hash tag, save the conspiracy. 142 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,000 JONATHAN KARL: Yes. He claims there, what do you have? Do you have -- give me the evidence 143 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,866 on Bill Clinton in the island. Give me the - - you know, I mean, what else could it be? 144 00:12:34,866 --> 00:12:39,833 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, I think it's important to note just quickly on this, that Donald Trump has 145 00:12:39,833 --> 00:12:44,833 already dangled publicly the prospect of a pardon. And I think that's very significant. I mean, 146 00:12:47,233 --> 00:12:50,733 I can't think of, you know, someone who has more incentive to lie or to tell Todd Blanche what he 147 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,100 wants to hear than someone who's in jail for a very long sentence. Trump has said, 148 00:12:58,533 --> 00:13:00,633 he was asked directly about it. He said, I can't - - you know, I'm not doing anything right now, 149 00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:03,433 but I have the power to do it. And I think he repeated that. 150 00:13:03,433 --> 00:13:06,466 FRANKLIN FOER: Peter, let me ask you a question that goes to what Susan was 151 00:13:06,466 --> 00:13:10,666 saying earlier about this whole constellation of things that could potentially be a scandalous. 152 00:13:10,666 --> 00:13:12,400 PETER BAKER: Yes. 153 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,933 FRANKLIN FOER: Is there any part of Donald Trump that actually enjoys 154 00:13:14,933 --> 00:13:18,933 this being the scandal as opposed to any of the other number of things that 155 00:13:18,933 --> 00:13:22,533 could be even more devastating perhaps and directed his way? 156 00:13:22,533 --> 00:13:26,400 PETER BAKER: I don't know if he enjoys it. I think that -- but it is true that this has 157 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,400 obscured to some extent other stories that might be, in other times, pretty big controversies. 158 00:13:33,733 --> 00:13:36,666 Let's just talk about this week. Just yesterday, the FCC appointed by Donald Trump approved an $8 159 00:13:38,866 --> 00:13:43,866 billion merger with Paramount that just 23 days after Paramount agreed to give Trump 160 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,233 $16 million for his presidential library. That's extraordinary. Just think about 161 00:13:50,233 --> 00:13:54,733 that. The president filed a private lawsuit against Paramount, which owns CBS because he 162 00:13:54,733 --> 00:13:58,733 was upset the interview that 60 Minutes did with Kamala Harris. That by itself, 163 00:13:58,733 --> 00:14:02,133 by the way, the idea that he gets to decide how an interview gets edited 164 00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:04,533 is pretty extraordinary for anybody who cares about the First Amendment. 165 00:14:04,533 --> 00:14:09,533 But put that aside for a second. Paramount settled this lawsuit with him, gave him $16 million, 166 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,900 which he gets to use as he wants for this library, and then strangely enough, 167 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:18,300 23 days later, his appointees approved their $8 billion merger. And reporting 168 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:22,700 has shown that the Paramount people were concerned that the government wouldn't, 169 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,866 that is the Trump administration, wouldn't approve their merger unless they gave him the money. 170 00:14:26,866 --> 00:14:31,433 JONATHAN KARL: And the FCC chairman approves it, basically suggesting 171 00:14:31,433 --> 00:14:36,200 they got assurances on what the editorial policies would be by CBS going forward. 172 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,100 PETER BAKER: Exactly. The president using, in effect, what appears to be 173 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:43,200 the power of government, right, to tell a media company how it should be reporting, 174 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,166 A, and, B, pocketing a little bit of money at the same time for his library. 175 00:14:47,166 --> 00:14:50,400 FRANKLIN FOER: And among the other various scandalous things that have come out this week 176 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,400 is his response to the scandal itself. Susan, one of the time tested methods that he uses is 177 00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:03,433 distraction. And the form of distraction that he's deployed this week is not just 178 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,800 forcing Coke to reintroduce sugar into its drinks, is that he had 179 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,800 Tulsi Gabbard come out and essentially declare a coup that took place in 2016. 180 00:15:15,433 --> 00:15:20,300 I want to listen to Gabbard from earlier this week. 181 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:24,400 TULSI GABBARD, Director of National Intelligence: When you look at the intent behind creating a 182 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,400 fake manufactured intelligence document that directly contradicts multiple assessments that 183 00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:36,900 were created by the intelligence community, the expressed intent and what followed afterward can 184 00:15:38,766 --> 00:15:43,000 only be described as a years-long coup and a treasonous conspiracy against the 185 00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:47,666 American people, our republic, and an attempt to undermine President Trump's administration. 186 00:15:47,666 --> 00:15:52,000 FRANKLIN FOER: I'm old enough to remember when Russia, Russia, Russia was a hoax, 187 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,733 but now it's apparently what they want to talk about all the time. Could you 188 00:15:55,733 --> 00:15:59,966 just parse and explain the sleight of hand that she was engaged in? 189 00:15:59,966 --> 00:16:03,600 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, let's stipulate on the front end that none of this is true, okay? So, 190 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,600 I think that's important to state for people. Not only that, but we have the really shocking in any 191 00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:14,833 other context image of the director of National Intelligence not only going and spreading lies, 192 00:16:16,633 --> 00:16:19,500 she's directly called the former president of the United States, 193 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:23,900 Barack Obama, essentially guilty of treason, referred him to the Justice 194 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:28,900 Department for a criminal prosecution, again, on the basis of a fantasy, a fiction, a lie. 195 00:16:32,133 --> 00:16:37,133 And in that clip that you played, for example, she says, it is the basis of a years-long coup, okay? 196 00:16:39,166 --> 00:16:44,100 That is an allegation that's ongoing, that not only at base, she says that what Obama, 197 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,666 Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, the former leaders of the intelligence community, 198 00:16:49,666 --> 00:16:54,666 all of them implicated, in her view, in basically putting out an intelligence finding that she 199 00:16:56,733 --> 00:17:01,300 says wasn't true, that Russia intervened in the 2016 election on Donald Trump's behalf. 200 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,233 Now, that ignores the investigation by Robert Mueller, the conclusions 201 00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:12,266 of the U.S. Intelligence community. It even ignores the years-long bipartisan 202 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:18,466 investigation of the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time led by Republicans 203 00:17:18,466 --> 00:17:23,166 who was a senior member of that committee, Marco Rubio, the current Trump secretary -- 204 00:17:23,166 --> 00:17:25,666 JONATHAN KARL: Archivist for the -- 205 00:17:25,666 --> 00:17:29,700 SUSAN GLASSER: Acting, acting national archivist, as well as national security adviser and secretary 206 00:17:31,766 --> 00:17:34,733 of state. So, not only is there no basis to this but imagine the recklessness of saying that 207 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,066 the former president is guilty of treason. The years-long coup is a new aspect to this conspiracy 208 00:17:43,266 --> 00:17:47,866 theory that I think is really quite remarkable. It speaks again to the hunger of this political 209 00:17:50,166 --> 00:17:54,266 movement in our society for grand unification, conspiracy theories, because the allegation here 210 00:17:56,333 --> 00:17:59,533 is that the original sin, quote/unquote, coup in 2016 of saying that Russia was trying to 211 00:18:01,866 --> 00:18:05,466 elect Trump when it wasn't, actually was the precursor event, according to Tulsi Gabbard, 212 00:18:07,566 --> 00:18:11,066 for efforts to rig the 2020 and 2024 elections as well. And that is the ongoing coup. 213 00:18:13,166 --> 00:18:18,100 She even, in an appearance with Charlie Cook -- sorry, Charlie Kirk, a well-known MAGA figure, 214 00:18:20,533 --> 00:18:25,000 claimed that it was actually this false statement about the 2016 campaign was the reason for the FBI 215 00:18:28,066 --> 00:18:33,066 raid on Mar-a-Lago to recover the illegally taken classified documents that Donald Trump 216 00:18:35,166 --> 00:18:39,466 brought with him from the White House. I mean, again it's lies upon absurdities, upon lies. 217 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,200 FRANKLIN FOER: What's being unleashed here, Jon? 218 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,333 JONATHAN KARL: I mean, you use the right phrase, 219 00:18:44,333 --> 00:18:47,700 sleight of hand. Because if you actually look at what she said, she did present some documents, 220 00:18:49,666 --> 00:18:53,400 and it was that the intelligence community's secret assessment was that Russia did not 221 00:18:55,433 --> 00:18:59,700 manipulate voting machines in America and changed the vote and rigged the election. 222 00:19:00,966 --> 00:19:02,200 Well guess what? That was never alleged. 223 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,233 EUGENE DANIELS: No one said that. 224 00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:06,866 JONATHAN KARL: Barack Obama actually said at a press conference, it might have been 225 00:19:06,866 --> 00:19:11,866 his last press conference in December of 2016 that there is no evidence, whatsoever, 226 00:19:14,033 --> 00:19:18,600 a vote-rigging. And that was actually part of the very assessment, the CIA assessment that 227 00:19:20,566 --> 00:19:24,800 Gabbard was saying was a scandal. It said, no, there were -- no votes were changed. 228 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,800 Russia tried to manipulate a public opinion in America by hacking into Hillary Clinton's 229 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,000 emails and through a series of other steps. But it was never the allegation. 230 00:19:39,233 --> 00:19:43,233 So, it was a very strange thing, because you have the director of National Intelligence acting like 231 00:19:45,366 --> 00:19:48,500 she was presenting this smoking gun and what she was actually presenting was nothing of the kind. 232 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:54,633 FRANKLIN FOER: Eugene, is such a patently obvious 233 00:19:54,633 --> 00:19:59,500 ploy to distract? Does the distraction actually work with this base? 234 00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:03,266 EUGENE DANIELS: No, because they still want the files, right? When you talk to the folks 235 00:20:03,266 --> 00:20:06,800 who are part of the base, they still want the files. They don't see these things as 236 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,800 connected. They also already believe that Barack Obama was some evil mastermind, right? So, 237 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:16,000 you're not presenting them with anything new to distract. That's the problem with this. 238 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,866 And I think, you know, it is really important to -- like it's very serious 239 00:20:20,866 --> 00:20:25,433 to accuse anyone of treason. It is very serious to accuse the former president 240 00:20:25,433 --> 00:20:30,133 and his team of treason and trying to steal the election from Donald Trump, 241 00:20:30,133 --> 00:20:34,900 because it's not -- it is the government saying that that's happening, but also the 242 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:39,366 people who are crazy and will may act on those kinds of conspiracy theories, right? 243 00:20:39,366 --> 00:20:44,033 PETER BAKER: And to see that it's not -- it's worth remembering the video that the president 244 00:20:44,033 --> 00:20:49,000 posted, an artificially intelligence fake video of Barack Obama being handcuffed in the Oval 245 00:20:51,433 --> 00:20:54,266 Office and taken into prison. This is something we've now just kind of brushed off because we're 246 00:20:54,266 --> 00:20:59,233 so used to this kind of wild and crazy kind of politics. But no president ever would've done that 247 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:04,900 in the past. And it would have been another time been a shocking breach of etiquette and I think, 248 00:21:07,166 --> 00:21:10,000 you know, a corruption of the judicial system to have a president of the United States say 249 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,000 that his predecessor should be locked up and put a video out there to celebrate the idea of it. 250 00:21:16,166 --> 00:21:17,400 FRANKLIN FOER: And a manipulated video. 251 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,366 PETER BKAER: A manipulated fake video. 252 00:21:19,366 --> 00:21:22,233 FRANKLIN FOER: Yes, right which goes to what you were talking about at the 253 00:21:22,233 --> 00:21:27,233 beginning that we're in -- we're trapped in this prison of conspiracy and manipulation, 254 00:21:28,466 --> 00:21:30,500 and those two things are deeply connected. 255 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,900 SUSAN GLASSER: Can I just admit that I actually was shocked and horrified even 256 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:38,866 to be living in this news cycle that we were. I actually -- I found that 257 00:21:40,566 --> 00:21:43,233 video that Donald Trump circulated on social media of Barack Obama 258 00:21:43,233 --> 00:21:48,200 being debased and humiliated in the Oval office to really make me feel nauseous. 259 00:21:50,233 --> 00:21:52,566 And, again, you know, this is something that all Americans should be condemning. 260 00:21:52,566 --> 00:21:56,333 And I think it also speaks to our debasement as a political culture. 261 00:21:56,333 --> 00:22:01,033 I went back and I looked. In the first Trump administration, you would get at least the 262 00:22:01,033 --> 00:22:06,033 bleeps of concern from Republican members of his party, from people around the country. Not a word, 263 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,400 not one word. You know, these are people who've lost their souls. And, you know, 264 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,000 ultimately it's for a political power that may or may not last more than, you know, 265 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,133 two or four years. And you got to ask, you know, was it really worth it for them? 266 00:22:23,133 --> 00:22:28,000 FRANKLIN FOER: And, Peter, I want to just pause further on the accusation of treason, 267 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,000 because it is so extreme, and I think also it's something that is -- you know, 268 00:22:35,066 --> 00:22:37,666 in terms of its magnitude outweighs anything having to do with the Epstein case, and it 269 00:22:37,666 --> 00:22:42,666 wasn't something that was necessarily leading the news or on the front page of newspapers. 270 00:22:44,666 --> 00:22:48,666 And it is not an isolated incident. It's reflective of a trend in his rhetoric. 271 00:22:50,833 --> 00:22:54,333 And you wrote about this the other week, and I want a quote from it. You wrote, evil is a 272 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,866 word getting a lot of airtime in the second Trump term. Anyone viewed as critical of the president 273 00:22:59,866 --> 00:23:04,833 or insufficiently deferential is wicked. The Trump administration's efforts to achieve its policy 274 00:23:06,933 --> 00:23:10,033 goals are not just an exercise in governance but a holy mission against forces of darkness. 275 00:23:12,166 --> 00:23:15,900 PETER BAKER: Yes. And it's so much easier if your opponent, your rival, your competitor, 276 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:20,300 isn't just somebody you disagree with, isn't just somebody who has bad policy ideas, maybe, but it's 277 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:24,533 somebody who is wicked or evil because then you justify all kinds of things that come up, right? 278 00:23:24,533 --> 00:23:27,433 And the reason one of these, I wrote that article, was because the president was asked 279 00:23:27,433 --> 00:23:31,200 at one point about Ale Mayorkas, who's the secretary of Homeland Security under Biden, 280 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,133 and somebody says, should he be locked up because the border was so bad? And he says, 281 00:23:34,133 --> 00:23:36,600 yes, that's something we should look at. Kristi Noem, he says to his own, 282 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,633 secretary of Homeland Security, you should look at that. Should we put Mayorkas in prison because 283 00:23:40,633 --> 00:23:45,033 of the border? That's not accusing him of a criminal act. He's simply saying that I 284 00:23:45,033 --> 00:23:48,133 don't like his policy, therefore I would go ahead and imprison him. Guess what? Nobody 285 00:23:48,133 --> 00:23:52,133 paid attention to that because, in fact, we hear him say things like this so much. 286 00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:54,500 And I know a lot of Republicans, a lot of Trump people will say, well, you know, 287 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:58,266 the Biden people weaponized government by going after Donald Trump. Okay, I understand 288 00:23:58,266 --> 00:24:03,233 that concern by a lot of people. He was pursued by prosecutors. You never heard President Biden say, 289 00:24:05,433 --> 00:24:09,466 hey, this guy's guilty of treason. He never put a video on there showing Trump being locked up. 290 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,000 He recognized it was his job as president to stand back and let the justice system handle 291 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,000 this as justice system should. It wasn't his job to try to demonize or vilify his enemies. 292 00:24:21,033 --> 00:24:23,433 Now, he said a lot of bad things about Donald Trump. Fair enough. I've heard that from Trump 293 00:24:23,433 --> 00:24:28,433 people since I wrote an article, but it just doesn't come close to what Donald Trump does. 294 00:24:30,133 --> 00:24:32,166 FRANKLIN FOER: And it's a departure, right? This is not -- I mean, 295 00:24:32,166 --> 00:24:37,066 not just from past precedent, but this is actually a different version of Donald Trump. 296 00:24:39,266 --> 00:24:42,500 JONATHAN KARL: I think that Susan hit on one of the biggest different here is that he now has 297 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,266 total command of the Republican Party. So, there's nobody -- and he also has an administration and a 298 00:24:50,533 --> 00:24:55,533 staff that is based entirely on loyalty. So, you don't hear any dissent either within the 299 00:24:57,833 --> 00:25:01,866 administration or within the Republican rank and file or leadership in Congress. You heard some of 300 00:25:03,933 --> 00:25:08,266 that. Whether it mattered in the first term, maybe it didn't at the end, but that's gone. 301 00:25:10,533 --> 00:25:13,933 I will say one thing in terms of the question to Eugene about will this ultimately really hurt his 302 00:25:16,033 --> 00:25:19,800 base, him with his base. I think that the way Democrats have jumped onto the Epstein story, 303 00:25:21,533 --> 00:25:25,700 I think you now have a little bit of a rallying around Trump on this. 304 00:25:27,466 --> 00:25:29,233 FRANKLIN FOER: We're going to have to leave it there for now. Thanks to 305 00:25:29,233 --> 00:25:32,133 our guests for joining me, and thank you to you at home for watching us. 306 00:25:32,133 --> 00:25:36,233 I'm Franklin Foer. Goodnight from Washington.