WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:06.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, a scandal that even President Trump can't 00:07.933 --> 00:11.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% manage or contain. Just six months into the president's second term, 00:11.100 --> 00:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% lingering questions about his relationship with the deceased sex trafficker are 00:15.500 --> 00:20.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% consuming his White House and paralyzing Congress with no end in sight, next. 01:25.600 --> 01:30.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. I'm Franklin Foer in tonight for Jeffrey Goldberg. 01:32.266 --> 01:35.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% It wasn't that long ago when Elon Musk, who was on his way out of DOGE, 01:35.333 --> 01:40.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% posted what he called a really big bomb, that President Trump's name was in the 01:42.300 --> 01:45.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% files of the government's Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Musk deleted that post, 01:47.666 --> 01:49.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but a report from The Wall Street Journal this week confirmed his extraordinary claim 01:49.866 --> 01:54.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and revealed that the president was briefed about it by Attorney General Pam Bondi in May. 01:56.200 --> 01:58.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Joining me tonight to discuss this, Peter Baker, 01:58.500 --> 02:02.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Eugene Daniels is the 02:02.700 --> 02:07.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% senior Washington correspondent and co-host of The Weekend on MSNBC, Susan Glasser is a 02:09.966 --> 02:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% staff writer at the New Yorker, Jonathan Karl is the chief Washington correspondent at ABC News. 02:15.100 --> 02:18.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Before we tumble down this sordid rabbit hole, 02:20.633 --> 02:24.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Trump landed in Scotland today and took questions from the press. I want to listen to this exchange. 02:27.466 --> 02:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% REPORTER: Were you briefed on your name appearing in the Epstein files ever? 02:30.200 --> 02:33.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: No, I was never brief, no. 02:33.400 --> 02:37.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Eugene, The Wall Street Journal reported that he was in these files, 02:37.433 --> 02:42.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and he was briefed about it. The New York Times confirmed it. Why in the world is he denying this? 02:44.800 --> 02:46.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington Correspondent: Donald Trump deny something that everyone else 02:46.866 --> 02:49.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% says is true? I'm shocked by that. Because he knows, he feels like it's a bad, 02:49.033 --> 02:52.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's a terrible thing, even though everyone who you will talk to who's an expert will 02:52.666 --> 02:56.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% tell you that just because someone's name is in these files doesn't mean they did anything bad, 02:56.500 --> 03:00.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right? We know that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. We know that Donald 03:00.633 --> 03:04.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Trump and him hung out a lot, right? We know these things. We know he was on the plane at some point. 03:04.700 --> 03:09.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so what Donald Trump has clearly made the calculation that he can't be connected to Jeffrey 03:11.766 --> 03:15.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Epstein in any way, shape or form, and because, for years, he and a lot of the people that are 03:15.433 --> 03:20.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in the administration stoked the files so much and talked about how bad they were and how all 03:22.700 --> 03:25.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% these pedophiles were in these files, je knows he cannot cop to knowing that he was in these files. 03:27.733 --> 03:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN KARL, Chief Washington Correspondent, ABC News: But, you know, here's the thing. When 03:30.200 --> 03:32.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Pam Bondi put out what she called phase one of the Epstein files in those binders to those right wing 03:34.133 --> 03:38.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% influencers, those documents, which were mostly stuff that had already been out, 03:38.133 --> 03:43.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% 300 or some pages, Donald Trump's name was in those documents. 03:44.800 --> 03:47.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Those documents included Epstein's address book, which had Donald Trump, 03:47.833 --> 03:52.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it had his brother, Robert, it had Ivanka, it has his ex-wife, Ivana, had, you know, 03:55.000 --> 03:58.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% whole several Trumps and also had the flight logs from some of Epstein's flights between 04:00.166 --> 04:03.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% West Palm Beach and Teterboro in New York, and one to D.C. I think his name appeared 04:03.600 --> 04:08.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% four or five times already in what were in the so-called Epstein files that were released by DOJ. 04:10.300 --> 04:13.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: Well, can you just talk about the bizarre paradox here, 04:13.666 --> 04:18.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I guess is what you might call it, is that at the same time that they really are desperate to 04:18.400 --> 04:23.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% escape this scandal, they keep burrowing deeper into it. I mean, Deputy Attorney 04:25.500 --> 04:28.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% General Todd Blanche just spent two days in Florida with Maxwell. What's the calculus? 04:31.033 --> 04:33.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JONATHAN KARL: I mean, if you thought this was an insignificant story and didn't want 04:33.833 --> 04:37.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to pay any attention to it, they're making it impossible to ignore it. 04:37.833 --> 04:42.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Having the deputy attorney general go down to Tallahassee for two full 04:44.900 --> 04:49.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% days to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, who obviously is in prison for sex trafficking, 04:51.600 --> 04:55.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is an extraordinary development. And when - - what other case do you see like that? 04:55.833 --> 05:00.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it's not just that, Frank, when you think about it, there were -- the Times had a great 05:00.800 --> 05:05.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% story about all the resources that have gone into this, reviewing these files, 05:05.100 --> 05:10.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% saying hundreds. I am told it's actually about 1,000 personnel from the FBI and the DOJ -- 05:13.600 --> 05:15.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: 1,000 personnel? 05:15.133 --> 05:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JONATHAN KARL: 1,000 people at the FBI and DOJ have been 05:18.700 --> 05:21.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% working to review these files for a matter of months. 05:21.266 --> 05:26.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, what were those people doing before they were tasked to this assignment, working on 05:28.200 --> 05:33.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% national security cases, terrorism cases? They are now -- you know, I mean, a significant 05:35.300 --> 05:39.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% part of the manpower of our national security division has been spent looking at these files. 05:41.266 --> 05:45.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: Peter, you guys have written a biography of Trump. Can you help me understand 05:47.333 --> 05:50.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% why -- I mean, there's no evidence that there's anything revelatory in these files 05:50.066 --> 05:55.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about Trump. Why, if he's innocent, does he act so guilty all the time? 05:55.033 --> 05:57.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Well, we've seen that on 05:57.000 --> 06:01.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% other occasions too, right? The Robert Mueller investigation found no provable 06:03.166 --> 06:06.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% in court conspiracy with Russia, and yet he seemed to act like there was one, 06:06.633 --> 06:11.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% right? He seemed to act very close to Russia, very admiring of Putin. Why do you do that if, in fact, 06:13.766 --> 06:17.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you don't have something wrong? And by firing people like Jim Comey back in his first term, 06:19.200 --> 06:21.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% you act like you've done something wrong, you're trying to cover it up. And so, yes, 06:21.333 --> 06:25.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he is his own worst enemy in this way. He brings this on himself by looking like he's 06:25.733 --> 06:30.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% trying to hide something by denying the obvious right there. As Jon says already out there, 06:30.233 --> 06:33.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this is not a mystery that his name was in these files, nor should it be, because, 06:33.033 --> 06:38.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% again, we already knew he was a friend of Epstein's, and yet he is acting that way. 06:39.733 --> 06:43.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But I think it's part of, you know, his habit is to deny, deny, deny, 06:43.833 --> 06:48.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% even provable truths. It's just never in his DNA to admit, much less acknowledge or apologize. 06:50.866 --> 06:53.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Where does that impulse come from? 06:53.800 --> 06:56.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER: Well, I think it's from his father, I think his upbringing, 06:56.200 --> 07:00.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to some extent. He was taught you never, ever give in, never give an inch, ever. You're a killer, 07:00.266 --> 07:03.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% his dad would say to him. Well, a killer doesn't give in it, doesn't apologize, 07:03.733 --> 07:06.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% doesn't acknowledge, doesn't say they did anything wrong, doesn't acknowledge 07:06.000 --> 07:10.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that there's some -- you know, that he made a mistake in being friends with Jeffrey Epstein. 07:10.700 --> 07:14.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Susan, you wrote an excellent column in the New Yorker about this scandal, 07:14.866 --> 07:19.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and I want a quote from it. This scandal then is not the revelation that Trump was friends 07:22.100 --> 07:25.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% with a sexual monster who exploited underage women, since it is not a revelation, nor is it 07:27.566 --> 07:30.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that the president lied to the American people, something he does with remarkable frequency. No. 07:32.900 --> 07:36.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The novelty here is that millions of Americans who knew that Trump was friends with such a 07:36.000 --> 07:41.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% horrid man and voted for him anyway now appear to have decided that in a choice 07:43.300 --> 07:46.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% between Trump and a favorite conspiracy theory, they may just stick with the conspiracy theory. 07:48.100 --> 07:52.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Of all the many Trump scandals, why is this one that seems to be the one that has gained 07:54.166 --> 07:58.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% traction and gripped the media and apparently tormented his base in the way that this has? 08:01.400 --> 08:03.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New Yorker: Yes, I think that's a really important question for us 08:03.533 --> 08:07.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to be asking, Frank. You know, if you think about it, in an administration where every 08:09.566 --> 08:13.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% day there's some new outrage or controversy where you could argue that the scandals get 08:15.166 --> 08:19.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to the core of who we are as a country, right? I mean, we're talking about the monetization 08:19.200 --> 08:24.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of the presidency. Nobody apparently cares about that. We're talking about flouting court orders, 08:26.633 --> 08:31.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% attacking individual judges. I mean, the list can go on and on. So, what is the political 08:33.700 --> 08:37.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% truth that we're seeing in this becoming a scandal when so many other things haven't? 08:37.500 --> 08:42.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, I just, to be totally frank, I would rather be talking about anything else than this, 08:44.600 --> 08:48.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% okay? We are talking about a convicted sexual offender who has been dead for six years, 08:51.100 --> 08:54.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% who was prosecuted, arrested, prosecuted, sent to jail. We're talking about 08:54.933 --> 08:59.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the deputy attorney general spending two days of his valuable time going to interview the 09:02.033 --> 09:06.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% also convicted accomplice of that long dead sexual offender, right? So, on some level, 09:08.366 --> 09:11.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% it's a perversion of our politics that we are talking about this. And it reflects, 09:13.766 --> 09:17.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of course, very poorly on the man in the White House who was friends with such a person. 09:19.833 --> 09:22.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But I just think it tells us something about the nature of Trump's alliance with the MAGA movement, 09:24.666 --> 09:29.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that he's both a leader but also a follower of them. He's unleashed so many lies, 09:31.700 --> 09:35.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% conspiracy theories, diversions, untruths, and that this particular one resonated so deeply with 09:38.133 --> 09:43.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a portion of his base that they are willing, at least for now, to even do what they're not 09:45.366 --> 09:48.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% willing to do on any of the other many lies and conspiracy theories that he has foisted upon them. 09:50.533 --> 09:53.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think it's quite interesting to wonder whether this is a breach that could widen 09:55.433 --> 09:58.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% over time or it's a one-off. And I think we don't know the answer to that yet, 09:58.400 --> 10:03.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but it's notable that some members of Congress who stick with Donald Trump through the most 10:05.566 --> 10:09.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% outrageous untruths are demanding answers from him that he doesn't want to give right now. 10:11.266 --> 10:14.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% EUGENE DANIELS: And part of it is this scandal, the Epstein/Trump of it all, goes at the heart 10:17.033 --> 10:20.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of kind of what the MAGA base is about, which is powerful people doing things behind closed doors 10:22.866 --> 10:27.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and the rest of us being screwed out of it, right? And, usually, Donald Trump is on the 10:29.733 --> 10:31.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% side of the people that are getting screwed, right? Usually, Donald Trump is talking about how, 10:31.933 --> 10:36.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, the lowly man and woman are losing out to these interests in Washington, D.C., 10:38.666 --> 10:41.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and people are defending and protecting them, and we have to stop those people. 10:41.866 --> 10:45.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But now they are seeing Donald Trump seemingly being one of the people 10:45.366 --> 10:48.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% doing the defending and the protecting of the powerful people, and him being one of 10:48.566 --> 10:52.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the powerful people themselves. That's why I think he can't shake it because, 10:52.433 --> 10:57.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at the end of the day, this is -- they love a conspiracy theory, right? Over and over again, 10:59.466 --> 11:02.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this is one that, when you talk to people, the pedophile rings, alleged pedophile rings -- 11:03.566 --> 11:05.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN KARL: Based on QAnon. 11:05.333 --> 11:07.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% EUGENE DANIELS: Yes, based on QAnon, and also remember the pizzeria. 11:07.666 --> 11:11.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: But let's be clear here that, you know, we act as though these poor people 11:11.900 --> 11:15.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were misled and now they're shocked to find out like that Donald Trump was friends with 11:15.600 --> 11:19.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Epstein, they've known that for years, okay? How many times have, 11:19.666 --> 11:24.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, we inflicted upon our viewers or our readers images of Donald Trump 11:26.466 --> 11:28.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and Jeffrey Epstein? The video of him, them partying, that's from decades ago. 11:28.866 --> 11:33.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% PETER BAKER: The MAGA base, though, is upset not because they think Trump was friends with 11:33.266 --> 11:36.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Epstein. They're upset because they thought that the Epstein files would tell them something about 11:36.866 --> 11:40.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% other people, about other rings. They didn't want to actually target Trump, 11:40.300 --> 11:43.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% per se, that sort of collateral damage in a way they thought. It would be telling about 11:43.866 --> 11:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Bill Clinton, it would be telling them about other famous and, you know, elites. 11:47.600 --> 11:50.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN KARL: And Bondi raised the expectations. 11:50.500 --> 11:55.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, look, there's a fundamental question that I'm amazed has not really been directly addressed 11:55.066 --> 12:00.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in so much of how the story has unfolded. Why is Todd Blanche in Tallahassee? What 12:03.100 --> 12:06.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% is what purpose? Just a basic question, because the White House hasn't answered. 12:06.866 --> 12:11.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, I think that -- I mean, my understanding is there's really only one explanation, 12:13.966 --> 12:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and then that is he's trying to go and produce what all those FBI agents couldn't produce when 12:17.100 --> 12:22.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they were looking through the files, trying to get some dirt on the president's enemies. 12:23.800 --> 12:26.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: So, it's a desperate hash tag, save the conspiracy. 12:26.600 --> 12:30.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN KARL: Yes. He claims there, what do you have? Do you have -- give me the evidence 12:30.000 --> 12:34.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on Bill Clinton in the island. Give me the - - you know, I mean, what else could it be? 12:34.866 --> 12:39.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: Well, I think it's important to note just quickly on this, that Donald Trump has 12:39.833 --> 12:44.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% already dangled publicly the prospect of a pardon. And I think that's very significant. I mean, 12:47.233 --> 12:50.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I can't think of, you know, someone who has more incentive to lie or to tell Todd Blanche what he 12:52.800 --> 12:56.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% wants to hear than someone who's in jail for a very long sentence. Trump has said, 12:58.533 --> 13:00.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he was asked directly about it. He said, I can't - - you know, I'm not doing anything right now, 13:00.633 --> 13:03.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I have the power to do it. And I think he repeated that. 13:03.433 --> 13:06.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Peter, let me ask you a question that goes to what Susan was 13:06.466 --> 13:10.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% saying earlier about this whole constellation of things that could potentially be a scandalous. 13:10.666 --> 13:12.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% PETER BAKER: Yes. 13:12.400 --> 13:14.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: Is there any part of Donald Trump that actually enjoys 13:14.933 --> 13:18.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this being the scandal as opposed to any of the other number of things that 13:18.933 --> 13:22.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% could be even more devastating perhaps and directed his way? 13:22.533 --> 13:26.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER: I don't know if he enjoys it. I think that -- but it is true that this has 13:26.400 --> 13:31.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% obscured to some extent other stories that might be, in other times, pretty big controversies. 13:33.733 --> 13:36.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Let's just talk about this week. Just yesterday, the FCC appointed by Donald Trump approved an $8 13:38.866 --> 13:43.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% billion merger with Paramount that just 23 days after Paramount agreed to give Trump 13:45.800 --> 13:50.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% $16 million for his presidential library. That's extraordinary. Just think about 13:50.233 --> 13:54.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that. The president filed a private lawsuit against Paramount, which owns CBS because he 13:54.733 --> 13:58.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was upset the interview that 60 Minutes did with Kamala Harris. That by itself, 13:58.733 --> 14:02.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by the way, the idea that he gets to decide how an interview gets edited 14:02.133 --> 14:04.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% is pretty extraordinary for anybody who cares about the First Amendment. 14:04.533 --> 14:09.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But put that aside for a second. Paramount settled this lawsuit with him, gave him $16 million, 14:11.400 --> 14:13.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which he gets to use as he wants for this library, and then strangely enough, 14:13.900 --> 14:18.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 23 days later, his appointees approved their $8 billion merger. And reporting 14:18.300 --> 14:22.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% has shown that the Paramount people were concerned that the government wouldn't, 14:22.700 --> 14:26.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that is the Trump administration, wouldn't approve their merger unless they gave him the money. 14:26.866 --> 14:31.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JONATHAN KARL: And the FCC chairman approves it, basically suggesting 14:31.433 --> 14:36.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they got assurances on what the editorial policies would be by CBS going forward. 14:36.200 --> 14:39.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% PETER BAKER: Exactly. The president using, in effect, what appears to be 14:39.100 --> 14:43.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the power of government, right, to tell a media company how it should be reporting, 14:43.200 --> 14:47.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% A, and, B, pocketing a little bit of money at the same time for his library. 14:47.166 --> 14:50.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: And among the other various scandalous things that have come out this week 14:50.400 --> 14:55.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is his response to the scandal itself. Susan, one of the time tested methods that he uses is 14:58.700 --> 15:03.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% distraction. And the form of distraction that he's deployed this week is not just 15:05.100 --> 15:08.800 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% forcing Coke to reintroduce sugar into its drinks, is that he had 15:08.800 --> 15:13.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Tulsi Gabbard come out and essentially declare a coup that took place in 2016. 15:15.433 --> 15:20.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I want to listen to Gabbard from earlier this week. 15:20.300 --> 15:24.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% TULSI GABBARD, Director of National Intelligence: When you look at the intent behind creating a 15:24.400 --> 15:29.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% fake manufactured intelligence document that directly contradicts multiple assessments that 15:31.900 --> 15:36.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were created by the intelligence community, the expressed intent and what followed afterward can 15:38.766 --> 15:43.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% only be described as a years-long coup and a treasonous conspiracy against the 15:45.166 --> 15:47.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% American people, our republic, and an attempt to undermine President Trump's administration. 15:47.666 --> 15:52.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: I'm old enough to remember when Russia, Russia, Russia was a hoax, 15:52.000 --> 15:55.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but now it's apparently what they want to talk about all the time. Could you 15:55.733 --> 15:59.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just parse and explain the sleight of hand that she was engaged in? 15:59.966 --> 16:03.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Well, let's stipulate on the front end that none of this is true, okay? So, 16:03.600 --> 16:08.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think that's important to state for people. Not only that, but we have the really shocking in any 16:10.900 --> 16:14.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% other context image of the director of National Intelligence not only going and spreading lies, 16:16.633 --> 16:19.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% she's directly called the former president of the United States, 16:19.500 --> 16:23.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Barack Obama, essentially guilty of treason, referred him to the Justice 16:23.900 --> 16:28.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Department for a criminal prosecution, again, on the basis of a fantasy, a fiction, a lie. 16:32.133 --> 16:37.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And in that clip that you played, for example, she says, it is the basis of a years-long coup, okay? 16:39.166 --> 16:44.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That is an allegation that's ongoing, that not only at base, she says that what Obama, 16:46.200 --> 16:49.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, the former leaders of the intelligence community, 16:49.666 --> 16:54.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all of them implicated, in her view, in basically putting out an intelligence finding that she 16:56.733 --> 17:01.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% says wasn't true, that Russia intervened in the 2016 election on Donald Trump's behalf. 17:03.000 --> 17:07.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Now, that ignores the investigation by Robert Mueller, the conclusions 17:09.100 --> 17:12.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of the U.S. Intelligence community. It even ignores the years-long bipartisan 17:14.300 --> 17:18.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% investigation of the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time led by Republicans 17:18.466 --> 17:23.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who was a senior member of that committee, Marco Rubio, the current Trump secretary -- 17:23.166 --> 17:25.666 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% JONATHAN KARL: Archivist for the -- 17:25.666 --> 17:29.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: Acting, acting national archivist, as well as national security adviser and secretary 17:31.766 --> 17:34.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of state. So, not only is there no basis to this but imagine the recklessness of saying that 17:37.000 --> 17:41.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the former president is guilty of treason. The years-long coup is a new aspect to this conspiracy 17:43.266 --> 17:47.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% theory that I think is really quite remarkable. It speaks again to the hunger of this political 17:50.166 --> 17:54.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% movement in our society for grand unification, conspiracy theories, because the allegation here 17:56.333 --> 17:59.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is that the original sin, quote/unquote, coup in 2016 of saying that Russia was trying to 18:01.866 --> 18:05.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% elect Trump when it wasn't, actually was the precursor event, according to Tulsi Gabbard, 18:07.566 --> 18:11.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for efforts to rig the 2020 and 2024 elections as well. And that is the ongoing coup. 18:13.166 --> 18:18.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She even, in an appearance with Charlie Cook -- sorry, Charlie Kirk, a well-known MAGA figure, 18:20.533 --> 18:25.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% claimed that it was actually this false statement about the 2016 campaign was the reason for the FBI 18:28.066 --> 18:33.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% raid on Mar-a-Lago to recover the illegally taken classified documents that Donald Trump 18:35.166 --> 18:39.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% brought with him from the White House. I mean, again it's lies upon absurdities, upon lies. 18:40.800 --> 18:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: What's being unleashed here, Jon? 18:42.200 --> 18:44.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN KARL: I mean, you use the right phrase, 18:44.333 --> 18:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sleight of hand. Because if you actually look at what she said, she did present some documents, 18:49.666 --> 18:53.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and it was that the intelligence community's secret assessment was that Russia did not 18:55.433 --> 18:59.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% manipulate voting machines in America and changed the vote and rigged the election. 19:00.966 --> 19:02.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Well guess what? That was never alleged. 19:02.200 --> 19:04.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% EUGENE DANIELS: No one said that. 19:04.233 --> 19:06.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN KARL: Barack Obama actually said at a press conference, it might have been 19:06.866 --> 19:11.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% his last press conference in December of 2016 that there is no evidence, whatsoever, 19:14.033 --> 19:18.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% a vote-rigging. And that was actually part of the very assessment, the CIA assessment that 19:20.566 --> 19:24.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Gabbard was saying was a scandal. It said, no, there were -- no votes were changed. 19:24.800 --> 19:29.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Russia tried to manipulate a public opinion in America by hacking into Hillary Clinton's 19:32.000 --> 19:37.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% emails and through a series of other steps. But it was never the allegation. 19:39.233 --> 19:43.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So, it was a very strange thing, because you have the director of National Intelligence acting like 19:45.366 --> 19:48.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% she was presenting this smoking gun and what she was actually presenting was nothing of the kind. 19:50.700 --> 19:54.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Eugene, is such a patently obvious 19:54.633 --> 19:59.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ploy to distract? Does the distraction actually work with this base? 19:59.500 --> 20:03.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% EUGENE DANIELS: No, because they still want the files, right? When you talk to the folks 20:03.266 --> 20:06.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who are part of the base, they still want the files. They don't see these things as 20:06.800 --> 20:11.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% connected. They also already believe that Barack Obama was some evil mastermind, right? So, 20:13.900 --> 20:16.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you're not presenting them with anything new to distract. That's the problem with this. 20:16.000 --> 20:20.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And I think, you know, it is really important to -- like it's very serious 20:20.866 --> 20:25.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to accuse anyone of treason. It is very serious to accuse the former president 20:25.433 --> 20:30.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and his team of treason and trying to steal the election from Donald Trump, 20:30.133 --> 20:34.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because it's not -- it is the government saying that that's happening, but also the 20:34.900 --> 20:39.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people who are crazy and will may act on those kinds of conspiracy theories, right? 20:39.366 --> 20:44.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% PETER BAKER: And to see that it's not -- it's worth remembering the video that the president 20:44.033 --> 20:49.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% posted, an artificially intelligence fake video of Barack Obama being handcuffed in the Oval 20:51.433 --> 20:54.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Office and taken into prison. This is something we've now just kind of brushed off because we're 20:54.266 --> 20:59.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% so used to this kind of wild and crazy kind of politics. But no president ever would've done that 21:01.700 --> 21:04.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in the past. And it would have been another time been a shocking breach of etiquette and I think, 21:07.166 --> 21:10.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you know, a corruption of the judicial system to have a president of the United States say 21:10.000 --> 21:15.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that his predecessor should be locked up and put a video out there to celebrate the idea of it. 21:16.166 --> 21:17.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: And a manipulated video. 21:17.400 --> 21:19.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% PETER BKAER: A manipulated fake video. 21:19.366 --> 21:22.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: Yes, right which goes to what you were talking about at the 21:22.233 --> 21:27.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% beginning that we're in -- we're trapped in this prison of conspiracy and manipulation, 21:28.466 --> 21:30.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and those two things are deeply connected. 21:30.500 --> 21:33.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Can I just admit that I actually was shocked and horrified even 21:33.900 --> 21:38.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to be living in this news cycle that we were. I actually -- I found that 21:40.566 --> 21:43.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% video that Donald Trump circulated on social media of Barack Obama 21:43.233 --> 21:48.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% being debased and humiliated in the Oval office to really make me feel nauseous. 21:50.233 --> 21:52.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, again, you know, this is something that all Americans should be condemning. 21:52.566 --> 21:56.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And I think it also speaks to our debasement as a political culture. 21:56.333 --> 22:01.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I went back and I looked. In the first Trump administration, you would get at least the 22:01.033 --> 22:06.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% bleeps of concern from Republican members of his party, from people around the country. Not a word, 22:08.400 --> 22:13.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not one word. You know, these are people who've lost their souls. And, you know, 22:15.400 --> 22:19.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ultimately it's for a political power that may or may not last more than, you know, 22:21.000 --> 22:23.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% two or four years. And you got to ask, you know, was it really worth it for them? 22:23.133 --> 22:28.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FRANKLIN FOER: And, Peter, I want to just pause further on the accusation of treason, 22:28.000 --> 22:33.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because it is so extreme, and I think also it's something that is -- you know, 22:35.066 --> 22:37.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in terms of its magnitude outweighs anything having to do with the Epstein case, and it 22:37.666 --> 22:42.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% wasn't something that was necessarily leading the news or on the front page of newspapers. 22:44.666 --> 22:48.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it is not an isolated incident. It's reflective of a trend in his rhetoric. 22:50.833 --> 22:54.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And you wrote about this the other week, and I want a quote from it. You wrote, evil is a 22:56.800 --> 22:59.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% word getting a lot of airtime in the second Trump term. Anyone viewed as critical of the president 22:59.866 --> 23:04.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% or insufficiently deferential is wicked. The Trump administration's efforts to achieve its policy 23:06.933 --> 23:10.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% goals are not just an exercise in governance but a holy mission against forces of darkness. 23:12.166 --> 23:15.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER: Yes. And it's so much easier if your opponent, your rival, your competitor, 23:15.900 --> 23:20.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% isn't just somebody you disagree with, isn't just somebody who has bad policy ideas, maybe, but it's 23:20.300 --> 23:24.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% somebody who is wicked or evil because then you justify all kinds of things that come up, right? 23:24.533 --> 23:27.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the reason one of these, I wrote that article, was because the president was asked 23:27.433 --> 23:31.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% at one point about Ale Mayorkas, who's the secretary of Homeland Security under Biden, 23:31.200 --> 23:34.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and somebody says, should he be locked up because the border was so bad? And he says, 23:34.133 --> 23:36.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% yes, that's something we should look at. Kristi Noem, he says to his own, 23:36.600 --> 23:40.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% secretary of Homeland Security, you should look at that. Should we put Mayorkas in prison because 23:40.633 --> 23:45.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the border? That's not accusing him of a criminal act. He's simply saying that I 23:45.033 --> 23:48.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% don't like his policy, therefore I would go ahead and imprison him. Guess what? Nobody 23:48.133 --> 23:52.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% paid attention to that because, in fact, we hear him say things like this so much. 23:52.133 --> 23:54.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I know a lot of Republicans, a lot of Trump people will say, well, you know, 23:54.500 --> 23:58.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Biden people weaponized government by going after Donald Trump. Okay, I understand 23:58.266 --> 24:03.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that concern by a lot of people. He was pursued by prosecutors. You never heard President Biden say, 24:05.433 --> 24:09.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% hey, this guy's guilty of treason. He never put a video on there showing Trump being locked up. 24:11.600 --> 24:14.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He recognized it was his job as president to stand back and let the justice system handle 24:14.000 --> 24:19.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this as justice system should. It wasn't his job to try to demonize or vilify his enemies. 24:21.033 --> 24:23.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, he said a lot of bad things about Donald Trump. Fair enough. I've heard that from Trump 24:23.433 --> 24:28.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people since I wrote an article, but it just doesn't come close to what Donald Trump does. 24:30.133 --> 24:32.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: And it's a departure, right? This is not -- I mean, 24:32.166 --> 24:37.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not just from past precedent, but this is actually a different version of Donald Trump. 24:39.266 --> 24:42.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JONATHAN KARL: I think that Susan hit on one of the biggest different here is that he now has 24:44.900 --> 24:48.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% total command of the Republican Party. So, there's nobody -- and he also has an administration and a 24:50.533 --> 24:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% staff that is based entirely on loyalty. So, you don't hear any dissent either within the 24:57.833 --> 25:01.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% administration or within the Republican rank and file or leadership in Congress. You heard some of 25:03.933 --> 25:08.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that. Whether it mattered in the first term, maybe it didn't at the end, but that's gone. 25:10.533 --> 25:13.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I will say one thing in terms of the question to Eugene about will this ultimately really hurt his 25:16.033 --> 25:19.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% base, him with his base. I think that the way Democrats have jumped onto the Epstein story, 25:21.533 --> 25:25.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I think you now have a little bit of a rallying around Trump on this. 25:27.466 --> 25:29.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% FRANKLIN FOER: We're going to have to leave it there for now. Thanks to 25:29.233 --> 25:32.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% our guests for joining me, and thank you to you at home for watching us. 25:32.133 --> 25:36.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm Franklin Foer. Goodnight from Washington.