WEBVTT 00:01.900 --> 00:03.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee, presumptive Republican nominee, 00:03.933 --> 00:07.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% going up against Joe Biden, the obvious Democratic nominee. 00:07.433 --> 00:12.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is unusual on any number of grounds. One reason it's unusual 00:12.200 --> 00:17.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is because we haven't had two presidents run against each other since 1892. That was when 00:19.200 --> 00:22.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Grover Cleveland unseated Benjamin Harrison, who had defeated him four years earlier. 00:23.966 --> 00:25.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Benjamin Harrison, by the way, Indiana -- 00:25.666 --> 00:27.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Asma Khalid: From my great home state. 00:27.500 --> 00:30.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, the great home state of Asma Khalid. We'll spend five 00:30.100 --> 00:33.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or six minutes talking about the legacy of Benjamin Harrison on 00:33.866 --> 00:38.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% another show. But that's one of the many aspects, the length of this campaign. 00:40.966 --> 00:45.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I wanted you to focus on one very important question, which is how did Republicans come 00:47.133 --> 00:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% around to accepting Donald Trump as their candidate again? But before you answer, 00:53.900 --> 00:58.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just let's listen to Mitch McConnell from 2021 and then from this week. 01:00.433 --> 01:04.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY): There's no question, none, that President Trump is 01:04.500 --> 01:09.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. 01:15.300 --> 01:20.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In February of 2021, shortly after the attack on the Capitol, that I would support President 01:23.333 --> 01:28.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Trump if he were the nominee of our party, and he obviously is going to be the nominee of our party. 01:30.033 --> 01:34.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: So, take us through this. It seems improbable if you 01:36.300 --> 01:40.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% were around on January 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 2021 that we're here, 01:40.866 --> 01:45.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but the Republicans have fully accepted this as a nomination. 01:45.833 --> 01:49.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Asma Khalid: Yes, that's true. I think there's a few reasons. One is, I would argue, 01:49.533 --> 01:54.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that they see there is an inevitability, and the Republican base of the party is with 01:56.633 --> 01:59.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Donald Trump. I mean, we're observing just this weekend is the RNC meeting in Houston, 02:01.833 --> 02:04.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and in which Trump's handpicked people are not going to be leading the party. 02:04.500 --> 02:08.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% This is very much Donald Trump's party, and I don't think they have a choice. 02:08.200 --> 02:11.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think more interesting than even someone like Mitch McConnell is you're seeing someone like 02:11.633 --> 02:16.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the governor of New Hampshire, Sununu has come out, right, to be supportive now of Donald Trump. 02:16.266 --> 02:18.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We were having an interesting debate in the newsroom the other day about whether or not 02:18.933 --> 02:22.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you were going to see the folks who supported Nikki Haley come around to Donald Trump sooner 02:22.333 --> 02:25.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or whether you'd have the folks who were uncommitted on Joe Biden come around sooner. 02:25.800 --> 02:28.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I fell into the camp that I think Biden's going to have a tougher problem with his base. 02:28.933 --> 02:31.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, that's interesting. Go ahead. 02:31.133 --> 02:33.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think, largely, it's also about power, 02:33.233 --> 02:37.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% right? If you know Mitch McConnell and been covering Mitch McConnell, Mitch McConnell 02:37.333 --> 02:42.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% cares about really one thing. That's that Senate, right? He cares about that majority. 02:44.600 --> 02:47.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so in his mind, getting behind Donald Trump is the fastest way to have a Senate majority, 02:49.366 --> 02:51.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% even though he's not going to be in charge of that Senate majority, 02:51.466 --> 02:55.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to have that for Republicans going into the next Congress. 02:55.933 --> 03:00.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Now, we'll also say there was a fear among Republicans of this base, 03:00.700 --> 03:03.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% right? It was inevitable because they also chose to, 03:03.533 --> 03:08.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right? We all remember when Kevin McCarthy went up to Mar-a-Lago after January 6th, 03:10.866 --> 03:14.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% kiss the ring, had that very awkward picture that they ended up taking and putting out. That was it. 03:14.033 --> 03:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% When I saw that, and I think a lot of reporters and folks watching saw that and said, oh, 03:17.933 --> 03:22.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this is it, Trump is back. Republicans are going to fall back in line. Because once 03:22.433 --> 03:26.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the leaders of the party started doing it, the folks folks within the party were like, well, 03:26.833 --> 03:31.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I guess that's what we're going with because, you know, leaders are supposed to lead and not follow. 03:31.300 --> 03:36.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. So, Carlos, I want to talk a little bit about your methods. I mean, 03:38.233 --> 03:43.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this book, which is a fascinating book, your specialty is deep reading 03:44.433 --> 03:46.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of Washington documents, Washington biographies, 03:46.566 --> 03:51.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% autobiographies, all manner of Washington non-fiction, and that's what this book is. 03:53.333 --> 03:57.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In your most recent column, you read for your readers 887 pages of a report 04:01.000 --> 04:05.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% called Mandate for Leadership. It's a conservative blueprint for 2025. 04:05.433 --> 04:08.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now that we're heading into the general election, it's a great time to ask you, 04:08.833 --> 04:13.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and thank you for reading it, so we don't have to read 887 pages of I assume very dry prose -- 04:15.233 --> 04:16.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Carlos Lozada: But very revealing prose. 04:16.900 --> 04:18.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Very revealing. What did it reveal? 04:18.866 --> 04:22.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Carlos Lozada: Yes. So, this is -- I should emphasize, it's not officially 04:22.733 --> 04:27.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a Trump campaign document. It's not been endorsed by the Trump campaign. However, 04:29.266 --> 04:32.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% among its dozens of contributors, it has many, many former Trump administration officials 04:34.666 --> 04:38.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and Trump has mentioned about 300 times in this book compared to once for Nikki Haley, 04:40.433 --> 04:43.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for instance. So, you can see the affinity there. 04:45.533 --> 04:48.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The purpose of this is to be ready to govern on day one. It's an implicit admission that 04:48.733 --> 04:53.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they really weren't ready to govern on day one the last time around. There's a lot in 04:53.066 --> 04:57.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it. It breaks down the federal executive branch, like agency by agency, office by office. But I 04:57.933 --> 05:02.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% think there's three kind of main themes. One is flood the zone with political appointees, 05:05.000 --> 05:08.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right? Like people who will be loyal to the president, loyal to the agenda of the new 05:08.666 --> 05:13.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% administration, and both kind of oversee and push out the career civil servants. 05:16.433 --> 05:21.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Second, to politicize the Justice Department, right? The one thing you see -- and I'm not 05:21.266 --> 05:26.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% like reading tea leaves here, it's very overt in the book. They emphasize how, for instance, 05:28.600 --> 05:32.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the White House Counsel's Office and the DOJ have to work as a team. That's a quote. How the FBI 05:35.300 --> 05:40.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% director should be as aligned with the president's agenda as any other agency head, those kinds of 05:43.400 --> 05:48.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% things. Also, they just say that, look, remember, the DOJ is under the control and direction of the 05:48.100 --> 05:53.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% president, and therefore even litigation decisions have to be consistent with the president's agenda. 05:54.833 --> 05:58.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But the main message of this book is that for all the rhetoric about 06:01.000 --> 06:03.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the need to dismantle the administrative stage, you know, downsize the government, 06:03.933 --> 06:08.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that's not really what you see here. They pay lip service to it, but they want to enlist it. 06:11.033 --> 06:13.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They want to harness it. They want to take it out for a spin, see how fast it will go, 06:13.500 --> 06:18.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know? And that, I think, is frankly, you know, why they have such detail in this document, 06:20.800 --> 06:24.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not because it's going to tear it all down. They want to redirect it. 06:24.033 --> 06:28.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Asma, Eugene, do you think that Republicans on the Hill are 06:28.333 --> 06:33.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% aligned with this project in the way that obviously Trump loyalists are aligned? 06:35.700 --> 06:38.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think it depends on what chamber you're talking about first in the House, 06:38.266 --> 06:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% probably. So, there's probably many more people in the House, 06:41.333 --> 06:44.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Republican conference, who are in line with this document. 06:44.600 --> 06:49.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think senators tend not to be as much, right? These are people who, one, they don't have to run 06:49.300 --> 06:53.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% every two years. They get six years, so they're a little bit more common -- tend to be a little bit 06:53.833 --> 06:58.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% more moderate. There are some outliers, Hawley, Ted Cruz, those kinds of folks, Rand Paul. 07:01.066 --> 07:05.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I think the thing that we saw during this primary, what we saw during the Trump years, 07:08.000 --> 07:11.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is that Republicans will largely get in line. And so if Trump is to become president again, 07:13.466 --> 07:16.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and they are to use this 300-page document - - or this 800-something page document, 07:16.666 --> 07:20.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% excuse me, and use that as what they're going to do, I think, 07:20.666 --> 07:23.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% largely, they will just kind of get in line with those kinds of things. 07:23.333 --> 07:27.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% There will be some folks who will talk out loud and be angry about it, 07:27.466 --> 07:30.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but people like Mitt Romney are leaving the Senate. And 07:30.266 --> 07:33.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% so there's going to be a lot more space for people who are much more politicized. 07:33.433 --> 07:37.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let me ask you, too, in the last minute that we have left, 07:37.333 --> 07:42.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's a very basic question. But are you surprised we are where we are? 07:44.766 --> 07:49.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Carlos Lozada: I think that you can be shocked without being surprised, 07:51.833 --> 07:55.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and I think that's where I fall. Every day, what you see feels shocking, but when you 07:57.666 --> 08:02.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% watch the whole trajectory of American politics from 2015 onward, it almost seems inevitable. 08:04.633 --> 08:06.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Asma, last word to you. 08:06.366 --> 08:08.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Asma Khalid: Yes, I think that's a beautiful way of putting it. 08:08.633 --> 08:11.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I don't think that it's particularly surprising. I mean, look at Donald Trump, 08:11.600 --> 08:15.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and I said this when I covered the 2016 campaign, that he tapped into a 08:15.600 --> 08:20.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% pre-existing condition in American society. I think he was very effective at doing so, 08:20.466 --> 08:25.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but I don't think what he did was create anything new. He certainly capitalized on it. 08:25.433 --> 08:30.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: But without Donald Trump, do you think we'd be where we are today with a plan 08:32.366 --> 08:35.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on the part of the party, the Republican Party, to dismantle and remake a new -- 08:35.300 --> 08:37.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Asma Khalid: I don't think we'd be there without Donald Trump. I mean, 08:37.500 --> 08:42.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he certainly tapped into this sentiment that was brewing, but then he capitalized on it.