1 00:00:01,900 --> 00:00:03,933 Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee, presumptive Republican nominee, 2 00:00:03,933 --> 00:00:07,433 going up against Joe Biden, the obvious Democratic nominee. 3 00:00:07,433 --> 00:00:12,200 This is unusual on any number of grounds. One reason it's unusual 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:17,200 is because we haven't had two presidents run against each other since 1892. That was when 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,733 Grover Cleveland unseated Benjamin Harrison, who had defeated him four years earlier. 6 00:00:23,966 --> 00:00:25,666 Benjamin Harrison, by the way, Indiana -- 7 00:00:25,666 --> 00:00:27,500 Asma Khalid: From my great home state. 8 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:30,100 Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, the great home state of Asma Khalid. We'll spend five 9 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:33,866 or six minutes talking about the legacy of Benjamin Harrison on 10 00:00:33,866 --> 00:00:38,833 another show. But that's one of the many aspects, the length of this campaign. 11 00:00:40,966 --> 00:00:45,033 But I wanted you to focus on one very important question, which is how did Republicans come 12 00:00:47,133 --> 00:00:52,100 around to accepting Donald Trump as their candidate again? But before you answer, 13 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:58,466 just let's listen to Mitch McConnell from 2021 and then from this week. 14 00:01:00,433 --> 00:01:04,500 Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY): There's no question, none, that President Trump is 15 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:09,500 practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. 16 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:20,300 In February of 2021, shortly after the attack on the Capitol, that I would support President 17 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:28,333 Trump if he were the nominee of our party, and he obviously is going to be the nominee of our party. 18 00:01:30,033 --> 00:01:34,833 Jeffrey Goldberg: So, take us through this. It seems improbable if you 19 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:40,866 were around on January 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 2021 that we're here, 20 00:01:40,866 --> 00:01:45,833 but the Republicans have fully accepted this as a nomination. 21 00:01:45,833 --> 00:01:49,533 Asma Khalid: Yes, that's true. I think there's a few reasons. One is, I would argue, 22 00:01:49,533 --> 00:01:54,500 that they see there is an inevitability, and the Republican base of the party is with 23 00:01:56,633 --> 00:01:59,833 Donald Trump. I mean, we're observing just this weekend is the RNC meeting in Houston, 24 00:02:01,833 --> 00:02:04,500 and in which Trump's handpicked people are not going to be leading the party. 25 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:08,200 This is very much Donald Trump's party, and I don't think they have a choice. 26 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,633 I think more interesting than even someone like Mitch McConnell is you're seeing someone like 27 00:02:11,633 --> 00:02:16,266 the governor of New Hampshire, Sununu has come out, right, to be supportive now of Donald Trump. 28 00:02:16,266 --> 00:02:18,933 We were having an interesting debate in the newsroom the other day about whether or not 29 00:02:18,933 --> 00:02:22,333 you were going to see the folks who supported Nikki Haley come around to Donald Trump sooner 30 00:02:22,333 --> 00:02:25,800 or whether you'd have the folks who were uncommitted on Joe Biden come around sooner. 31 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,933 And I fell into the camp that I think Biden's going to have a tougher problem with his base. 32 00:02:28,933 --> 00:02:31,133 Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, that's interesting. Go ahead. 33 00:02:31,133 --> 00:02:33,233 Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think, largely, it's also about power, 34 00:02:33,233 --> 00:02:37,333 right? If you know Mitch McConnell and been covering Mitch McConnell, Mitch McConnell 35 00:02:37,333 --> 00:02:42,333 cares about really one thing. That's that Senate, right? He cares about that majority. 36 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,633 And so in his mind, getting behind Donald Trump is the fastest way to have a Senate majority, 37 00:02:49,366 --> 00:02:51,466 even though he's not going to be in charge of that Senate majority, 38 00:02:51,466 --> 00:02:55,933 to have that for Republicans going into the next Congress. 39 00:02:55,933 --> 00:03:00,700 Now, we'll also say there was a fear among Republicans of this base, 40 00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:03,533 right? It was inevitable because they also chose to, 41 00:03:03,533 --> 00:03:08,533 right? We all remember when Kevin McCarthy went up to Mar-a-Lago after January 6th, 42 00:03:10,866 --> 00:03:14,033 kiss the ring, had that very awkward picture that they ended up taking and putting out. That was it. 43 00:03:14,033 --> 00:03:17,933 When I saw that, and I think a lot of reporters and folks watching saw that and said, oh, 44 00:03:17,933 --> 00:03:22,433 this is it, Trump is back. Republicans are going to fall back in line. Because once 45 00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:26,833 the leaders of the party started doing it, the folks folks within the party were like, well, 46 00:03:26,833 --> 00:03:31,300 I guess that's what we're going with because, you know, leaders are supposed to lead and not follow. 47 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:36,300 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. So, Carlos, I want to talk a little bit about your methods. I mean, 48 00:03:38,233 --> 00:03:43,233 this book, which is a fascinating book, your specialty is deep reading 49 00:03:44,433 --> 00:03:46,566 of Washington documents, Washington biographies, 50 00:03:46,566 --> 00:03:51,400 autobiographies, all manner of Washington non-fiction, and that's what this book is. 51 00:03:53,333 --> 00:03:57,200 In your most recent column, you read for your readers 887 pages of a report 52 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,433 called Mandate for Leadership. It's a conservative blueprint for 2025. 53 00:04:05,433 --> 00:04:08,833 Now that we're heading into the general election, it's a great time to ask you, 54 00:04:08,833 --> 00:04:13,833 and thank you for reading it, so we don't have to read 887 pages of I assume very dry prose -- 55 00:04:15,233 --> 00:04:16,900 Carlos Lozada: But very revealing prose. 56 00:04:16,900 --> 00:04:18,866 Jeffrey Goldberg: Very revealing. What did it reveal? 57 00:04:18,866 --> 00:04:22,733 Carlos Lozada: Yes. So, this is -- I should emphasize, it's not officially 58 00:04:22,733 --> 00:04:27,133 a Trump campaign document. It's not been endorsed by the Trump campaign. However, 59 00:04:29,266 --> 00:04:32,700 among its dozens of contributors, it has many, many former Trump administration officials 60 00:04:34,666 --> 00:04:38,600 and Trump has mentioned about 300 times in this book compared to once for Nikki Haley, 61 00:04:40,433 --> 00:04:43,466 for instance. So, you can see the affinity there. 62 00:04:45,533 --> 00:04:48,733 The purpose of this is to be ready to govern on day one. It's an implicit admission that 63 00:04:48,733 --> 00:04:53,066 they really weren't ready to govern on day one the last time around. There's a lot in 64 00:04:53,066 --> 00:04:57,933 it. It breaks down the federal executive branch, like agency by agency, office by office. But I 65 00:04:57,933 --> 00:05:02,933 think there's three kind of main themes. One is flood the zone with political appointees, 66 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,666 right? Like people who will be loyal to the president, loyal to the agenda of the new 67 00:05:08,666 --> 00:05:13,666 administration, and both kind of oversee and push out the career civil servants. 68 00:05:16,433 --> 00:05:21,266 Second, to politicize the Justice Department, right? The one thing you see -- and I'm not 69 00:05:21,266 --> 00:05:26,266 like reading tea leaves here, it's very overt in the book. They emphasize how, for instance, 70 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,900 the White House Counsel's Office and the DOJ have to work as a team. That's a quote. How the FBI 71 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:40,300 director should be as aligned with the president's agenda as any other agency head, those kinds of 72 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,100 things. Also, they just say that, look, remember, the DOJ is under the control and direction of the 73 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:53,100 president, and therefore even litigation decisions have to be consistent with the president's agenda. 74 00:05:54,833 --> 00:05:58,900 But the main message of this book is that for all the rhetoric about 75 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,933 the need to dismantle the administrative stage, you know, downsize the government, 76 00:06:03,933 --> 00:06:08,933 that's not really what you see here. They pay lip service to it, but they want to enlist it. 77 00:06:11,033 --> 00:06:13,500 They want to harness it. They want to take it out for a spin, see how fast it will go, 78 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:18,500 you know? And that, I think, is frankly, you know, why they have such detail in this document, 79 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,033 not because it's going to tear it all down. They want to redirect it. 80 00:06:24,033 --> 00:06:28,333 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Asma, Eugene, do you think that Republicans on the Hill are 81 00:06:28,333 --> 00:06:33,333 aligned with this project in the way that obviously Trump loyalists are aligned? 82 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,266 Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think it depends on what chamber you're talking about first in the House, 83 00:06:38,266 --> 00:06:41,333 probably. So, there's probably many more people in the House, 84 00:06:41,333 --> 00:06:44,600 Republican conference, who are in line with this document. 85 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,300 I think senators tend not to be as much, right? These are people who, one, they don't have to run 86 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:53,833 every two years. They get six years, so they're a little bit more common -- tend to be a little bit 87 00:06:53,833 --> 00:06:58,833 more moderate. There are some outliers, Hawley, Ted Cruz, those kinds of folks, Rand Paul. 88 00:07:01,066 --> 00:07:05,900 But I think the thing that we saw during this primary, what we saw during the Trump years, 89 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,500 is that Republicans will largely get in line. And so if Trump is to become president again, 90 00:07:13,466 --> 00:07:16,666 and they are to use this 300-page document - - or this 800-something page document, 91 00:07:16,666 --> 00:07:20,666 excuse me, and use that as what they're going to do, I think, 92 00:07:20,666 --> 00:07:23,333 largely, they will just kind of get in line with those kinds of things. 93 00:07:23,333 --> 00:07:27,466 There will be some folks who will talk out loud and be angry about it, 94 00:07:27,466 --> 00:07:30,266 but people like Mitt Romney are leaving the Senate. And 95 00:07:30,266 --> 00:07:33,433 so there's going to be a lot more space for people who are much more politicized. 96 00:07:33,433 --> 00:07:37,333 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let me ask you, too, in the last minute that we have left, 97 00:07:37,333 --> 00:07:42,333 it's a very basic question. But are you surprised we are where we are? 98 00:07:44,766 --> 00:07:49,766 Carlos Lozada: I think that you can be shocked without being surprised, 99 00:07:51,833 --> 00:07:55,433 and I think that's where I fall. Every day, what you see feels shocking, but when you 100 00:07:57,666 --> 00:08:02,233 watch the whole trajectory of American politics from 2015 onward, it almost seems inevitable. 101 00:08:04,633 --> 00:08:06,366 Jeffrey Goldberg: Asma, last word to you. 102 00:08:06,366 --> 00:08:08,633 Asma Khalid: Yes, I think that's a beautiful way of putting it. 103 00:08:08,633 --> 00:08:11,600 I don't think that it's particularly surprising. I mean, look at Donald Trump, 104 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,600 and I said this when I covered the 2016 campaign, that he tapped into a 105 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,466 pre-existing condition in American society. I think he was very effective at doing so, 106 00:08:20,466 --> 00:08:25,433 but I don't think what he did was create anything new. He certainly capitalized on it. 107 00:08:25,433 --> 00:08:30,433 Jeffrey Goldberg: But without Donald Trump, do you think we'd be where we are today with a plan 108 00:08:32,366 --> 00:08:35,300 on the part of the party, the Republican Party, to dismantle and remake a new -- 109 00:08:35,300 --> 00:08:37,500 Asma Khalid: I don't think we'd be there without Donald Trump. I mean, 110 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:42,133 he certainly tapped into this sentiment that was brewing, but then he capitalized on it.